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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ธ.ค. 2024
- Following the pattern of our brother Martin Luther, I have some statements to make "out of love for the truth and from desire to elucidate it." These are just some of the points (probably only half of them) regarding God's Word and how it is NOT being honored in many ways by the teachings and practices and attitudes in "The Lord's Recovery" - specifically among "responsible one" /"senior coworkers" who, even if they should disagree with a practice or teaching based on their rich knowledge of God's Word and based on their conscience, are required to tow the line lest they by labeled as dissenting, poisonous, negative, rebellious, etc. Such forced uniformity prohibits open and honest fellowship toward healing of various wounds and proper addressing of legitimate concerns.
In spite of such threats of labels and loss of life-long community, some of us must speak out if there is ever to be healing.
Silence is complicity with abuse. And there is too much abuse in this group. It is just well-concealed by too many....
I include some points here that are more personal, based on my specific experience, but I also try to capture at least some of the issues I have observed and experienced, and the verses/principles being violated in God's Word. I am ready to, as Martin Luther said, "defend the following statements and to dispute on them" along with other victims, witnesses and experts of the statements and matters of the truth addressed herein. I do not write these things without fellowshipping over months with fellow members who share many of these convictions, and who are willing and desirous to defend the truth and to see abusive behaviors and violations of the conscience cease.
Please note: This is not a smear campaign, as I am being accused of conducting. This is not a spiteful reaction to being mistreated and abandoned by my husband. Such a crisis of experience only caused me to confront current abuse, the impotence of church leaders to help us - and the common exacerbating of the problems that their involvement precipitated, and eventually I realized that there is a pattern of covering up abuse - including the sexual assault I experienced at 16 years old, when in Taipei, at the hands of Philip Lee, of which I know leading ones were aware, yet did nothing about. To process my experiences, I searched for others' experiences in this and other high-control groups. Healing comes partly by finding fellowship and understanding with others who can relate.
I am so grateful for all who have spoken out publicly, published words of truth and their personal testimonies on various platforms, and to those who have shared their experiences more privately. Knowing we are not alone helps to lessen the cognitive dissonance that can otherwise feel unbearable.
This is a defense of the truth and a speaking against abuse of believers, that the abuse would stop, that works of darkness would be exposed, and the Lord's Bride could be made ready, clothed in the righteousnesses of the saints, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing. For this I am willing to contend for the faith, along with so many who went before me - many who passed away having been shunned, smeared, lied about, and banned from gatherings in this group due to their speaking out; many who are still exposing works of darkness in love for the truth and for the church; and many who will follow.
“But let justice roll down like waters, and righteousness like an ever-flowing stream" (Amos 5:24).
#livingstreamministry #lordsrecovery #thelocalchurch #witnesslee #watchmannee #thelordsrecovery #localchurches
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Loved each of them! Continue speaking the truth!
Amen. May the Lord pierce the hearts of the saints. May their tongues be loosed and their testimony be given.
Whether they are true or false, may the Lord convict them of sin and bring them to repentance.
May those who are weary and heavy laden find rest in the Lord.
May those who hunger and thirst for righteousness be satisfied.
May those who mourn be comforted.
May there be lasting peace among the children of God.
During lunch today I read the entire NT epistle to the Colossians. Those words of Paul commend & celebrate the kind of behavior (not spirituality) which always accompanies the true Gospel of Christ. That letter also contains many direct warnings about evil imposters who once had a connection to the Head but now seek to take others captive. It also warns those saints to not lie! And the "frosting on the cake" came when I read 4:17 Tell Archippus: “See to it that you complete the ministry you have received in the Lord.” Not only does this show that Paul did not consider himself to be MOTA - it shows that another little potato brother had been given an equally important ministry to fulfill. Sadly, in light of the beautiful picture portrayed there in Colossians, the current system which claims to be The Lord's Recovery seems unworthy to receive such a letter.
Thank you for sharing. So refreshing. God's Word is so precious. "See to it that you complete the ministry you have received in the Lord," Brother!
The apostle Paul was most certainly a MOTA... But not the MOTA... This is where the Living Stream Ministry has gone a bit off course... A minister, versus the minister.
And this claim of being "...a MOTA..." is absolutely supported by Paul's own speaking in every epistle he wrote... Including his epistle to the Colossians, at the very beginning of which he declares, "...Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God,...".
That's about as clear a MOTA claim as an MOTA claim gets.
Regarding Archippus and what Paul said regarding him... I have never heard nor come across any speaking in WL's ministry that says other members of the Body (the church) don't have a ministry... But what I have read in biblical scripture is the apostle Paul telling Timothy, "...And the things which you have heard from me through many witnesses, these commit to faithful men, who will be competent to teach others also."... And. "...Hold a pattern of the healthy words that you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus."
So do you think that the apostle Paul would not have the same thought toward Archippus and his ministry?
Was Paul double-minded... Telling one person one thing and another person another thing?
Perhaps, before you run off trying to cherry-pick scripture to serve your own purpose... You ask the Lord to reveal to you the truth that is actually revealed in scripture, Priestlyscribe.
And ultimately... Didn't the apostle Paul instruct us all to have the mind of Christ?
Isn't Christ Jesus just one person?... If so... Would that not make any holding to Him have the same ministry... Seeing that it would be just one ministry coming out of the Lord's one mind?
May the Lord save us out of our poor understanding of His one word.
Amen.
@ I agree with you that the article “the” versus “a” makes a big difference. A minister of Christ is very different than claiming to BE or to FOLLOW “the minister of the age”.
Witness Lee and Watchman Nee are not the Christ. Nor are they the Apostle Paul. (Nor are they Moses.) To treat them with the same level of ministry as Christ or even if Paul- who did say it was given to him to complete the word of God - IS a main problem.
We ALL have the mind of Christ. We ALL have the Spirit of Reality… Watchman Nee and Witness Lee do NOT have a special, higher position in the Body - nor do “blended brothers”…
To say this does NOT make me Miriam because they are not Moses and I am a member of Christ’s Body and the Word of God is now completed and those words abide in me and in you…
Watchman Nee read many expositors’ work, spoke largely based on those believers’ books/ministry, and then called himself God’s authority, and is, along with Witness Lee, called by their followers THE Minister of the Age, God’s deputy authority among Christians, God’s oracle… and they spoke against (called degraded, sinful, divisive, harlots…) the same believers from whose ministries they saw much/most of what they then spoke… THAT is degradation.
@@ruthwise2159 says... "I agree with you that the article “the” versus “a” makes a big difference. A minister of Christ is very different than claiming to BE or to FOLLOW “the minister of the age”."
It was just some weeks ago that I was before the Lord regarding "...the minister...", asking how, if WL was "...the minister...", what would that make me when I enter into the ministry that I believe God is bringing me into... He answered me in a very clear manner, saying that WL is "...a..." minister of the age... This became more clear as I considered Oswald Chambers and his ministry, which I have long considered to be an antecedent to Watchman Nee's and Witness Lee's ministry.
You continued... "Witness Lee and Watchman Nee are not the Christ. Nor are they the Apostle Paul. (Nor are they Moses.) To treat them with the same level of ministry as Christ or even if Paul- who did say it was given to him to complete the word of God - IS a main problem."
Well... Every born-again believer is "...the Christ...", in the context of our living Christ Jesus. The apostle Paul said, "...For to me, to live is Christ ...".
And no... Neither WN or WL are the apostle Paul or Moses... But then, the apostle Paul nor Mose is WN nor WL... So what's your point... Are you trying to say that neither WN nor WL holds the position of the apostle Paul or Moses and that because they don't, their ministries are not as important?
Are you saying that a "...jot..." is not as important as a word?
According to biblical scripture, "...Among those born of women there has not arisen one greater than John the Baptist, yet he who is least in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he."
So John the Baptist is greater than Moses, and the least in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than John the Baptist... Which by extension means that the "...least in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than..." Moses.
Now surely neither WN nor WL are greater than Paul... And yet, Paul said that he was "...less than the least of all saints..."... In the context of possessing Christ Jesus, WN, and WL were the same as the apostle Paul, just as all born-again believers are... But in the context of gifts... The apostle Paul had a greater measure of gifts.
In my twenty-plus years of reading WL's ministry, I have never seen him compare himself to the apostle Paul, Moses, or Christ... And in the twenty-five years of reading Watchman Nee, I have never seen him compare himself to the apostle Paul, Moses, or Christ.
What you are doing is making a dishonest strawman... Here's why I can say this, Ruth... The president of Trinidad and Tobago is not equivalent to the president of the United States... And yet they are both presidents of their respective nations... Meaning, it is not impossible for the apostle Paul to be a MOTA... And Witness Lee to be a MOTA... If both their ministries are of God... WL does not have to be equivalent to Paul in order to be a MOTA... His ministry just needs to be of God.
You continued... "We ALL have the mind of Christ. We ALL have the Spirit of Reality… Watchman Nee and Witness Lee do NOT have a special, higher position in the Body - nor do “blended brothers”...".
Well, actually... This is NOT for you to say, it is only for God to say... As He alone measures out gifts to men.
Although we all who have been born again of God have the Spirit of reality, when it comes to the mind of Christ, this requires a putting on by us... And not all believers give themselves to taking this way for themselves.
Watchman Nee and Witness Lee most certainly have a higher calling (not "position", as the position of every born-again believer is positioned in Christ Jesus) than many other born-again of God believers... And their ministry is proof of this.
But I fully understand your need to try and say otherwise.
You continued... "To say this does NOT make me Miriam because they are not Moses and I am a member of Christ’s Body and the Word of God is now completed and those words abide in me and in you…".
Miriam's speaking was out of place... She did not have the grace from God to speak as she did... And God's judgment was according to His Old Testament covenant... We are in God's New Testament covenant... Yet, this doesn't mean that we cannot speak out of place... And some may think that your speaking in these videos are you speaking out of place... But, for me, the fact that God has allowed you to speak on these videos tells me that your videos are serving a purpose... Albeit, not necessarily the purpose you think your videos are for.
When you stand before God, He will let you know if you're a "...Miriam..."... For me, you're just one more person in desperate need of God's full salvation.
You continued... "Watchman Nee read many expositors’ work, spoke largely based on those believers’ books/ministry, and then called himself God’s authority, and is, along with Witness Lee, called by their followers THE Minister of the Age, God’s deputy authority among Christians, God’s oracle… and they spoke against (called degraded, sinful, divisive, harlots…) the same believers from whose ministries they saw much/most of what they then spoke… THAT is degradation."
The very first ministry book that God put in my hand was "...Whom Shall I Send..." by Watchman Nee... The second was "...The Centrality of The Cross..." by Jessie Penn Lewis... The third was "...My Utmost For His Highest...", by Oswald Chambers... All within the first few weeks of beginning my conscious walk with the Lord... And I didn't care who Nee, Penn Lewis, or Chambers had based their writing on... For me, all the books that I received were given to me by God, and that's all I needed to know.
God could have placed a donkey in front of me and had that donkey speak the apostle Paul's many epistles to me... I would not have cared that the donkey was speaking the apostle Paul's ministry as if it were his own ministry... All that mattered to me was that I knew that God had placed the donkey in front of me and had given it words to speak to me.
All I care about is that God is the source of what I receive... I have absolutely no interest in whose ministry came before another's ministry... It means nothing to me... And, before the Lord, it should mean nothing to you either.
And yet it does... Only because it serves your purpose to make it a point of contention... Which is actually indicative of, and exposes, degradation within your own being.
Seeing Jesus is the only seeing I desire to have... And in seeing Jesus... I am absolutely clear that contention that finds its source in and out of our natural man is not of God and can only bring division, which God hates.
May the Lord save us out of the distractions of our self.
Amen.
@@aboveandbeyond9844 I don't have the energy to read everything you wrote here tonight, but want to respond to the beginning of your reply.
I purposely included the word "the" in front of Christ. Yes, we are members of Christ's Body, to live is Christ, and Christ is all and in all, etc. However, none of us are "the Christ." None of us are God's Messiah.
I was reading your comment above from my phone, while with my son... I should have read it more carefully. I think I misunderstood your argument, now that I am re-reading it.
I was responding to the idea that people who confront "The MOTA" about legitimate concerns are likened to Moses - but Moses was in another dispensation, in which God used a mouthpiece to give people His laws, etc. People in TLR who say that WLee or WNee are not THE minister (or what I previously wrote: that Watchman Nee and Witness Lee do NOT have a special, higher position in the Body - nor do “blended brothers”) for speaking such things, people are likened by leaders to Miriam, and are diagnosed in this group as having spiritual leprosy. …Miriam's plight due to her criticizing Moses should not be used as a warning that suppresses the thorough fellowship among ALL members of the Body. In that context, I was saying WN and WL are not Moses.
Yes, Paul was a pattern, but to liken oneSELF and one's ministry to the Apostle Paul or any of the writers of the New Testament and their ministry seems highminded, in that they had a particular dispensational function to write what was canonized as the Bible... to which we don't add anything... We should be limited by what is in God's Word, but not limited by what WNee or WLee said/taught. There is a difference..... I hope I make sense.
Anyway, very tired, so I'm going to rest now.
I hope God wins this battle!
Dear brothers and sisters, the authorities in Russia are blocking TH-cam, it is already working poorly, please pray for the situation in our country so that you can communicate in the Body of Christ.
@@HelenChikina praying, dear sister. I so appreciate fellowship with you
In short, the entire chapter of Exodus 32 on "The Golden Calf".
Sister, you can add the bible verses to each point as your basis.
@@noelinuae7554 yes. I likely will. And then I can publish the document in my blog. There are so many verses and many more points to add to this list, God’s Word being systematically contradicted and violated and disobeyed in what people call “The Lord’s Recovery”… it’s sad.
So wht is your point against the Lord's recovery?
@@ally2000 I am not against “The Lord’s Recovery”. I am against sin being undealt with, abuse, exalting of some, mocking and mistreatment of others, stumbling of little ones/believers, elitism, and any other unscriptural practices…. I am all for the Lord recovering anything lost. But not obeying God’s word is NOT being “the Lord’s Recovery.”
@@ally2000Typically whistleblowers are more for the original mission of an organization/institution than those who stay silent. Silence does not help those we love if reproval and repentance and reconciliation are needed in order to be keeping God’s Word. Heralds of righteousness aren’t against people, but rather against unrighteousness. We are not against one another as believers. We all should be against God’s (our) unique enemy, against the injustice and unrighteousness and chaos and destruction for which Satan is responsible.
Sorry to reply AGAIN! Just thinking a lot about your qurestion. If a family member tells the family that some patterns of behavior are really hurting them, would one ask, "So what is your point against our family?" No - a proper, healthy family listens and makes adjustments, repenting for wrongdoing, etc.
If a toe has pain, based on certain practices of the Body that could (should) be altered, does anyone think, "So, what is the toe's point against other members in this Body?" No - the pain indicates a need for modification and a healthy body modifies accordingly, for the benefit of the whole Body. Ignoring pain is foolish - proper response is prudent.
@@ruthwise2159... Unless the toe is gangrene... Then you simply need to cut it off.
Amen.
@Peanut9527 says... "Methinks Above and Beyond doth protest too much."
Christ Jesus says, "...If anyone wants to come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his across and follow Me."
When we hold to what the Lord said above... We give no mind to any "...Methinks...".
May the Lord save us from all of our "...Methinks...".
Amen.
So... Now what?... Should there be an expectation of a new Christian movement emerging as a result of your "...theses...", as happened in the aftermath of Luther's actions?
Should we expect a "...Lord's recovery..." version 2.0?
Or are you, as Luther was, just hoping for the restoration of what already exists, albeit to a standard that is according to your diagnosis of the condition, and the requirement of implementing your presented theorized standard... Meaning, a version 1.1+?
Amen.
According to the the words of Jesus in Matthew 7 and Luke 6, anything built upon sand will eventually collapse.
@@priestlyscribe
Methinks *Above and Beyond* doth protest too much.
@@priestlyscribe w/ a sentiment/ premise that LC transcends the legacies of Martin Luther & the British/ Plymouth Brothers & that LC uplifts & culminates God's & the former leaders' mantle of Recovery, it's understandable to adopt condescending attitudes towards even founding fathers like Martin Luther; hence, 'I'm sorry but u must be by ur work that u didn't attend meetings' for whatever reasons, since God wouldn't help u in what u do & how could/ dare u find or appreciate God in any new perspectives thru what u do in life apart from attending church meetings since ur a subpar product doing some bad outside the church life in a world of cultures of undue influences & damages?!! Sorry to say but this kind of speaking carries a hint of curse that's ludicrous & vain if they're unaware of how it maligns God's character of true & pure & powerful love by insinuating doubts in u, to say the least, if ur inexperienced in setting boundaries. Can God be pigeonholed by any religion, let alone some church meetings?? Also, you gotta preach the gospel, by literally 'preaching', in their way as it's proven true & the highest to be spread to the ends of the world since any other 'natural' ways are less favorable or disapproved. And the reason for preaching the gospel is NOT to primarily & ultimately LOVE the persons that come into ur life by bringing down God's love to ppl w/ righteousness, BUT to spread the gospel of the LR for God, or to recruit ppl to meetings for God, or to make known that ur a good christian w/ a good business name as a testimony for God, or to be obsessed w/ a set of ideologies demanding validation & admiration for God. And What a sacrifice to put away ur adversarial nature / deny the self to serve God since u'd enjoy being evil if not for Gods sake! And u just need to turn to the Lord by calling on His name 3+~all the time, as we don't give any genuine advice, in fear of backlash & blowback, so we can't support u outside the church, but we're in the splendid church life being knitted together by love to grow into the fullest stature of God😍🤩. Is it really for God? I thought the baseline is not to be duplicitous & hypocritic😅😅... Some rebut by: we just like u (& ur 🤑) to come to the meetings, w/ innocent & warm smiles, but by gimmicks & manipulation of guilt tripping & shaming... Those who r intelligent & aware of what u are doing, the curses u deliver have made a u-turn to u, esp, if underprivileged & afflicted ppl cry out to God like those in Exodus 22:22-27, or do u believe in God in ur hrt anyways, or just like to use the popular quote of Psalm 73:17 to assess ppl according to church attendance even if they testify to Proverbs 6:16-19?? Another popular quote is Romans 520, how abt its variants, such as sins true nature get drawn out & made evident when nurtured in Grace, or Grace overcomes sin instead of 'covering' sins but u like to expose & judge ppl's mistakes?? Wondering why u don't get remaining fruits or u always get backsliders?
@@Love_Cruelty I wish you’d also provide 100+ “theses”… your points here address really important matters
@@aboveandbeyond9844 I speak out for the same reason sincere believers still read the Bible. Because we should apply it and faithfully do what Gods commands, and there is stumbling when leaders in a church community are NOT practicing God’s Word and when particular prominent teachings of theirs cause congregants to fear discerning right from wrong or from exposing evil because of threats that they will then be Ham and be cursed… I speak out because we SHOULD hold forth the word of life lest we run or labor in vain.