@@thewealthofnations4827 It has been referred to by several names. “The Lord’s Recovery” “The Local Churches” They follow the teachings of Witness Lee and study the bible according to the publications of a company called Living Stream Ministry.
One way people in the Recovery can refute the contents of this letter is simply by sharing one Non-LSM speaking or writing published in the past 40 years they can declare that they received life from. Just one. They can doubly refute this letter by counting how many times a Non-LSM publication that was shared in a regular meeting of the church received a hearty AMEN, without any public or private recommendation to stay with The Ministry. Just one should suffice, but give as accurate a count as you can recall.
@@RobertTaylor and there is SO much “out” there to receive life from… when I started attending various “other” gatherings, tears would be streaming down my face because there was so much life and I’d been told for decades that every other group of believers was dead and degraded.
@ I’m not Robert but he is my brother, and I’d like to share some extremely precious fellowship that I listened to last night: th-cam.com/video/xughUwlr2lw/w-d-xo.html
@bandsoflove wow😅😅... Ok joke aside, did the ministry talk about constantly (made to) feeling guilty that can lead to depression, vs repentance, for example?
@@bandsoflove the fact you ask this question is a testimony for outsiders to see all they need to know. What an amazing non-answer to my challenge! Answering a question with a question is a tactic of deception. Go ahead and explain what you mean behind your question: that all life-giving ministry is contained in LSM publications and apart from this there is only repeats, at best. Or do you mean something else?
isnt it interesting that all these ex-members who were so "faithful to God's word" and acknowledged the truth of WL's ministry (at least through 1984)and the need to build up the church, exalt Christ and bring in the oneness of the Body could never be one - Ingalls, Knoch, So, Fung, Zehr, Otuteye, Myer, Chu all split up into different sects and were no longer one with each other....how is their practice of the "church"?
@@JoelElim-o7m Who told you these brothers weren’t/aren’t one? I have no sense of not being one with any believer. I’m just not one with sins and idolatry and supremacy of anyone but Christ, and I don’t think I’m an exception to those who don’t agree with hypocrisy, sin, idolatry and elitism among Christians…. I don’t know your definition of oneness, but it doesn’t seem like the oneness of the Spirit - or being one in soul, thinking the one thing… is something you can judge… unless there is corroboration of these brothers living in or being complicit in sin and being unwilling to repent. Let me/us know how you have determined these brothers aren’t/weren’t one.
@@ruthwise2159 You have to remember that the Local Churches have concepts such as the “one publication” mandate. If we aren’t all worshipping and praying and conducting ourselves in the same copy-and-paste manner under Lee’s ministry, they see it as “not being one.” The only way to be “one” in their eyes is to become Witness Lee tape recorders.
@@Peanut9527 wow tape recorders?😅never heard of it, maybe not circulating outside the inner circle?... but I've heard that God has tape recordings of each & everyone, which really flustered me initially bc iwas visualizing a vicious stalker watching you, or a pedantic teacher w/ menacing looks, projecting their OCD onto others, nitpicking on ur every move, until God told me to relax, and some ppl inspired me that the tape recordings serve as a warning to the godless, and a reminder to the God fearing ppl to spend the time wisely, and a memoir of moments u shared with the Lord...
@@Peanut9527 Then, yes, under that definition, these brothers are not “one” as tape recorders. But speaking the “same thing” in the Bible should NOT be speaking ONLY what one member speaks. We all have different portions of the same Christ… and these dear brothers had/have such precious even indispensable portions and were shunned by leaders and followers in TLR. 💔
Actually this letter was written almost 36 years ago. It was like this almost your whole adult life in it. Now you have regrets. Who hid anything from you? You could have asked your own parents whatever you wanted to know about how it used to be. Even in the letter Mr. Zehr still says the movement has become a “poor denomination.” So in having his own superior view of looking down on a poor denomination, you consider that high spirituality? I thought you condemned feeling superior to others?
@bandsoflove - Thanks for the math correction!! I was pretty tired last night! Yes, 36 years... I have no regrets. I am not sure where you got this. I am simply speaking out because I am a victim of unrighteousness and patterns of abuse of a system in which constituents, among whom I was one, consider themselves to be (in) the center of what God is doing on the earth, under God's oracle (the Minister of the Age, God's deputy authority...), becoming the overcomers to bring the Lord back, not degraded like "Christianity", etc. Yet in that system, there is gross immorality being covered up, and Scriptures being violated. My dad was excommunicated in this system, for doing his best to practice Matt. 18, when I was a child. My parents were missionaries and found "the" church when I was 5. I was a fervent lover of Jesus and a regenerated believer since I was 3.- I remember receiving the Lord. When my parents found "the" church I distinctly remember feeling like the most blessed human, particularly knowing I had family - God's family - all around the world. I still do have this family, but it is not exclusive of "particular" believers, and many of the family members who consider themselves "The Lord's Recovery" have demonstrated exclusivity and superiority to other members of God's family, and have turned a blind eye to abuse, to stumbling, etc. and I can't but speak out to those family members that people are being hurt. As far as dear Al Zehr mentioning a "poor denomination" - he was a Mennonite minister before taking the way of "The Lord's Recovery" for many years. He can speak to the poverty in a denomination and in his assessment of "The Lord's Recovery" - this is not, in my assessment, having a superior attitude; it is having a genuine assessment, as in Rev. 3 with Laodicea. There are many believers living in spiritual poverty. I am sure my brother Al would echo the words in Rev. 3: To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. 15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm-neither hot nor cold-I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. 19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me. 21 To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”
@@samuelingalls5424 I heard of him but didn't know him, but I did hear your father speak. I am sure Al was a dear brother, that is not in dispute. I'm just going by the letter Ruth just read. Al Zehr said the Recovery had become a poor denomination and at the end said it was just another part of poor christianity. So if Witness Lee or the churches are condemned for their view of denominations and christianity, how does brother Al get a pass for saying the same thing after he supposedly is now enlightened and leaving? Makes no sense. From what I can tell, he feels the Recovery is falling short of being better than general Christianity so still seeking that superiority, he is leaving. Ruth can excuse it as not being a superior attitude by some mental gymnastics, but if one is separating oneself from the fellowship with those who are poor in one's own view, that is taking a position of superiority and not extending any help to those who are poor to help them become rich. People always write letters as they are going out the door. Or in some cases, make videos. Staying to help is a real sacrifice. If looking down on denominations and general Christianity (and thus other Christians) is to be condemned, Al should also be condemned for having the same view. Or perhaps the warning is, one can be a very dear brother or sister in the Lord who has views that don't really express the feelings of Christ toward His members.
@@bandsoflove Denominations are not the believers. Systems are not the church. Publication companies are not ministry. Sin is not God’s testimony. Christianity is not equal to Christians. Jesus through John was not criticizing believers in Rev. as being inferior- the Spirit spoke to the churches words that all of us can and should take to heart. And some of those words address spiritual poverty and blindness and nakedness… and pride. Brother Al addressed specific and legitimate concerns related to contradictions between beliefs/teachings and practices. If such contradictions exist… and they do, that is hypocrisy. God desires us to worship in spirit and truthfulness, reality, sincerity… with no hypocrisy. If there is hypocrisy anywhere in Christianity, it is a blessing for it to be exposed. And if a Christian group condemns “Christianity” for very same practices they also practice, a brother pointing that out is not necessarily a hypocrite, considering himself superior, etc. I am not “out the door.” Most of these ones speaking out are NOT out the door of God’s house. We are seeking restoration of universal fellowship with ALL believers, which also requires repentance from sins long covered up. What door are you referring to? A door in/out of “The Lord’s Recovery”? Because if there is such a door - it is sectarian and divisive and exclusive to “others”… and people can “leave” or “come into” this group beyond simply believing in Christ and confessing His name and being baptized into the one Body… and maintaining fellowship with all believers by obeying God’s commandments, especially that we love Him and we love one another… without partiality… You are right. There IS a door into/out of TLR. It is sectarian, divisive and exclusive. The group’s teachings/practices don’t align - there is extreme hypocrisy. The teachings contradict and go beyond the Bible. These are major problems - causing serious damage - that more and more believers are sincerely confronting and addressing by speaking the truth. In love.
You just described your inane comments! You share NOTHING having to do with spiritual growth. You must still be one of the blinded ones. Open your eyes! Now would be good.
What do spiritual growth & maturity mean to you? Have you been attending the winter training? I thought this is day 2 of it. Could you share your enjoyment? I'm always down for some genuine or practical spiritual enlightenment, whether or not it applies currently or personally, as long as it's not ill intended or tainted w/ too much self-importance by the persons who deliver it...
@@samuelingalls5424 I have a conspiracy theory that Aurora actually loves Ruth’s speaking but just wants to appear to hate them so they don’t give themselves away. That’s why they keep coming back! If this is true, though, then that must mean that Aurora is in a lot of pain.
I am not sure how you define "spiritual growth and maturity" and how you define "nonsense and waste": Here is the letter, as much as will fit here, and I don't consider this "nonsense" or "waste": Dear Brothers, Having participated in the church-life and in elder’s fellowships with some of you for over fifteen years, I trust that something has been built up between us, and that this fellowship can be received in love and sincerity. My concern for the present situation among us has become very heavy. The aspects which I list here as THE TRUTH are some of the factors which won my heart to give the past eighteen years of my life to the recovery. All of them were at some time declared and held among us. My observation is that while we may still be speaking these truths our present practice has sadly drifted. I have visited many churches in four continents during the past two years, and my decision to share these matters has come after more than one year of considering and praying about them. It seems to me that unless the Lord could have much mercy and rescue us, we have very little ground for considering ourselves other than a poor denomination. I recognize that I owe a great debt to the recovery and have received much light and help from Bro. Lee. I feel I must however, be faithful to express what I see; in the fear of the Lord, but without fear or favor of man. Please consider these matters soberly and objectively before the Lord. 1. The WORD is our only supreme authority. All the saints should be encouraged to love it and to feel free to seek life and light from it, and to gain skill in handling and interpreting it. OUR PRACTICE: The Word should be read in the Recovery Version and can be understood properly only with the use of the foot-notes and life-studies. No one would dare to suggest another view, nor could anyone see light beyond what has been given by “the ministry.“ 2. The MINISTRY is the dispensing of Christ into His saints for the building up of the church. All who minister life and the revelation of God’s New Testament economy are ministers and have a part in this ministry. OUR PRACTICE: In our present vocabulary and practice the “ministry” is Witness Lee and whatever he has written or says, and the way he says it. Anything written or spoken by another person, especially if he is not in the “recovery” is “old” or taking us backward. 3. SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY is endowed upon a person by the Lord. It will be perceived and realized in the saints and substantiated by the Lord. “We should never say so much as one word on behalf of our own authority; rather let us give people the liberty. The more God entrusts to us, the more liberty we grant people.” Spiritual Authority by W. Nee, p. 121. OUR PRACTICE: In nearly every conference or training we observe a declaration of authority. Old Testament cases of disobedience are cited, death and negativism are ascribed to any who do not agree and respond positively. Is this not an insidious form of control? 4. THE CHURCH ground implies that we are open to receive and accept all genuine believers. We should not demand certain practices or separate those who have a different feeling about matters not of the “faith.” OUR PRACTICE: Those who have any reservation about any of our practices are “unclear”, “do not see the vision” and remain outsiders. Our ways are “God given” and our practices are, “God ordained.” This implicitly condemns all (those in the church or outside of it) who don’t fully embrace them. In this way we have thoroughly isolated ourselves from all other Christians. 5. Do not SEPARATE or make a distinction between the saints who may hold a different feeling about matters of form or practice. OUR PRACTICE: Those who express reservations about the latest way or practice are regarded as “old”, “in death”, “negative”, “not clear”, “pouring cold water”, “blowing cold winds” and are set aside as far as the “Lord’s up-to-date move” is concerned. 6. There should be OPEN fellowship, in an atmosphere which allows all saints to “speak the truth in love.” OUR PRACTICE: Speak about and report only the “positive.” Support whatever is being promoted, speak well of it, even inflate the statistics; meanwhile ignore any fact or evidence which shows a weakness or a failure. Of course in this way we never have a failure. Loyalty and blind approval is prized while objectivity and honesty are strongly disapproved. Whoever stays “positive”, and confirms everything is “in”, and is often elevated, while those who speak their genuine concern are regarded as “negative”, and “undermining” and soon privately and perhaps publicly condemned. 7. There should be no effort to ORGANIZE or UNIFY the churches. OUR PRACTICE: Constant pressure is applied through trainings, videos, and slogans to push churches and saints to conform. Elders are belittled, as being “old”, “ambitious”, “big-speakers”, and “undermining”, if they do not bring their churches into conformity. LIFE LESSONS & TRUTH LESSONS are promoted as the only way to properly express the truth and help new believers. (These are some of the aspects that caused me to leave the denomination years ago.) 8. Do not get involved in “HOW TO”, or in the promoting of ways. The natural always wants to know “how to.” This will only produce behavior and outward form. It is not the way of life. Life will issue from the abiding and this will produce organic fruit. OUR PRACTICE: In recent months, messages and books are flooding us with “THE WAY TO…” There is a “way” and a “how to” given for whatever we do or say. The saints are learning now only how to behave but are put in the realm of policing others, especially the elders, so all freedom is lost. 9. The Lord’s GOAL IS THE CHURCH. Whatever we do must be for the building up of the church. The ministry exists not to build up itself but the local churches. “If God’s people could only see that the object of all ministry is the founding of local churches and not the grouping of Christians around any particular individual, truth, or experience or under any particular organization, then the forming of sects could be avoided. We who serve the Lord must be willing to let go our hold upon all those to whom we have ministered, and let the fruits of our ministry pass into local churches governed entirely by local men.” The Normal Christian Church Life by W. Nee, p 91. OUR PRACTICE: There is very little time or energy for building up the local church. Time, money, and resources are constantly exhausted in order to defend, protect, supply, build up, and “meet the need” of the ministry by “serving the ministry in the ministry’s way.” Videos, conferences, trainings, and standing book orders have all become necessary to “keep current with the ministry.” 10. We MEET in the name of the Lord. All the saints have the freedom to share as the Spirit gives them utterance. OUR PRACTICE: Everyone is measured by whether they speak “the ministry.” Truth Lessons, Life studies, and foot-notes are proper ways to speak or express anything. The safest way is just to read with little or no comment. Surely this is CONTROL, and must offend the headship of the One in whose name we meet. In The Normal Christian Church Life, p. 92-93 Bro. Nee warns: “Whenever a special leader, or a specific doctrine, or some experience, or creed, or organization, becomes a center for drawing together the believers of different places, then because the center of such a church federation is other than Christ, it follows that its sphere will be other than local. And whenever the divinely-appointed sphere of locality is displaced by a sphere of human invention, there the divine approval cannot rest. The believers within such a sphere may truly love the Lord, but they have another center apart from Him, and it is only natural that the second center becomes the controlling one. It is contrary to human nature to stress what we have in common with others; we always emphasize what is ours in particular. Christ is the common center of all the churches, but any company of believers that have a leader, a doctrine, an experience, a creed, or an organization as their center of fellowship, will find that that center becomes the center, and it is that center by which they determine who belongs to them and who does not. The center always determines the sphere, and the second center creates a sphere which divides those who attach themselves to it from those who do not.” “Anything that becomes a center to unite believers of different places will create a sphere which includes all believers who attach themselves to that center and excludes all who do not. This dividing line will destroy the God-appointed boundary of locality, and consequently destroy the very nature of the churches of God.” Brothers I beg you, I plead with you, please consider objectively; is this not our case? Is this the reality of the vision that caught us, and is it still clear and pure? Is there a possibility that while we condemn, “poor Christianity”, that we are like Laodicea, saying, “I am rich…and do not know that we are…poor and blind…? May the Lord find room in our hearts to extend His mercy, that we might repent. Perhaps we might be rescued and restored to His blessing.
![Jonathan Cahn WARNING PROPHECY 💥 [URGENT MESSAGE] SPECIAL SERMON OF THE LORD TO AMERICA (DEC 27)](/img/n.gif)
What a wonderfully accurate and loving letter!
I haven’t been to a meeting since 2023, not that long ago, but his words still perfectly describe what the local churches are like
Which church is it?
@@thewealthofnations4827 living stream ministry
@@thewealthofnations4827
It has been referred to by several names.
“The Lord’s Recovery”
“The Local Churches”
They follow the teachings of Witness Lee and study the bible according to the publications of a company called Living Stream Ministry.
Agreed.
One way people in the Recovery can refute the contents of this letter is simply by sharing one Non-LSM speaking or writing published in the past 40 years they can declare that they received life from. Just one. They can doubly refute this letter by counting how many times a Non-LSM publication that was shared in a regular meeting of the church received a hearty AMEN, without any public or private recommendation to stay with The Ministry. Just one should suffice, but give as accurate a count as you can recall.
@@RobertTaylor and there is SO much “out” there to receive life from… when I started attending various “other” gatherings, tears would be streaming down my face because there was so much life and I’d been told for decades that every other group of believers was dead and degraded.
Robert can you give one example of a life-giving portion that is not already expounded in the ministry of Witness Lee. For our education of course.
@ I’m not Robert but he is my brother, and I’d like to share some extremely precious fellowship that I listened to last night: th-cam.com/video/xughUwlr2lw/w-d-xo.html
@bandsoflove wow😅😅... Ok joke aside, did the ministry talk about constantly (made to) feeling guilty that can lead to depression, vs repentance, for example?
@@bandsoflove the fact you ask this question is a testimony for outsiders to see all they need to know. What an amazing non-answer to my challenge! Answering a question with a question is a tactic of deception.
Go ahead and explain what you mean behind your question: that all life-giving ministry is contained in LSM publications and apart from this there is only repeats, at best. Or do you mean something else?
isnt it interesting that all these ex-members who were so "faithful to God's word" and acknowledged the truth of WL's ministry (at least through 1984)and the need to build up the church, exalt Christ and bring in the oneness of the Body could never be one - Ingalls, Knoch, So, Fung, Zehr, Otuteye, Myer, Chu all split up into different sects and were no longer one with each other....how is their practice of the "church"?
@@JoelElim-o7m Who told you these brothers weren’t/aren’t one? I have no sense of not being one with any believer. I’m just not one with sins and idolatry and supremacy of anyone but Christ, and I don’t think I’m an exception to those who don’t agree with hypocrisy, sin, idolatry and elitism among Christians…. I don’t know your definition of oneness, but it doesn’t seem like the oneness of the Spirit - or being one in soul, thinking the one thing… is something you can judge… unless there is corroboration of these brothers living in or being complicit in sin and being unwilling to repent. Let me/us know how you have determined these brothers aren’t/weren’t one.
🤣🤣🤣 thought I was reading a dated advertisement strategy...
@@ruthwise2159
You have to remember that the Local Churches have concepts such as the “one publication” mandate. If we aren’t all worshipping and praying and conducting ourselves in the same copy-and-paste manner under Lee’s ministry, they see it as “not being one.”
The only way to be “one” in their eyes is to become Witness Lee tape recorders.
@@Peanut9527 wow tape recorders?😅never heard of it, maybe not circulating outside the inner circle?... but I've heard that God has tape recordings of each & everyone, which really flustered me initially bc iwas visualizing a vicious stalker watching you, or a pedantic teacher w/ menacing looks, projecting their OCD onto others, nitpicking on ur every move, until God told me to relax, and some ppl inspired me that the tape recordings serve as a warning to the godless, and a reminder to the God fearing ppl to spend the time wisely, and a memoir of moments u shared with the Lord...
@@Peanut9527 Then, yes, under that definition, these brothers are not “one” as tape recorders. But speaking the “same thing” in the Bible should NOT be speaking ONLY what one member speaks. We all have different portions of the same Christ… and these dear brothers had/have such precious even indispensable portions and were shunned by leaders and followers in TLR. 💔
Actually this letter was written almost 36 years ago. It was like this almost your whole adult life in it. Now you have regrets. Who hid anything from you? You could have asked your own parents whatever you wanted to know about how it used to be. Even in the letter Mr. Zehr still says the movement has become a “poor denomination.” So in having his own superior view of looking down on a poor denomination, you consider that high spirituality? I thought you condemned feeling superior to others?
You must not know Al Zehr, a very dear brother in the Lord! To know him is to love him, the very same thing so often said of my father!😊
@bandsoflove - Thanks for the math correction!! I was pretty tired last night! Yes, 36 years... I have no regrets. I am not sure where you got this. I am simply speaking out because I am a victim of unrighteousness and patterns of abuse of a system in which constituents, among whom I was one, consider themselves to be (in) the center of what God is doing on the earth, under God's oracle (the Minister of the Age, God's deputy authority...), becoming the overcomers to bring the Lord back, not degraded like "Christianity", etc. Yet in that system, there is gross immorality being covered up, and Scriptures being violated.
My dad was excommunicated in this system, for doing his best to practice Matt. 18, when I was a child. My parents were missionaries and found "the" church when I was 5. I was a fervent lover of Jesus and a regenerated believer since I was 3.- I remember receiving the Lord. When my parents found "the" church I distinctly remember feeling like the most blessed human, particularly knowing I had family - God's family - all around the world.
I still do have this family, but it is not exclusive of "particular" believers, and many of the family members who consider themselves "The Lord's Recovery" have demonstrated exclusivity and superiority to other members of God's family, and have turned a blind eye to abuse, to stumbling, etc. and I can't but speak out to those family members that people are being hurt.
As far as dear Al Zehr mentioning a "poor denomination" - he was a Mennonite minister before taking the way of "The Lord's Recovery" for many years. He can speak to the poverty in a denomination and in his assessment of "The Lord's Recovery" - this is not, in my assessment, having a superior attitude; it is having a genuine assessment, as in Rev. 3 with Laodicea. There are many believers living in spiritual poverty.
I am sure my brother Al would echo the words in Rev. 3:
To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. 15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm-neither hot nor cold-I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.
19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.
21 To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”
How is calling out unrighteousness “looking down” on a denomination?
@@samuelingalls5424 I heard of him but didn't know him, but I did hear your father speak. I am sure Al was a dear brother, that is not in dispute. I'm just going by the letter Ruth just read. Al Zehr said the Recovery had become a poor denomination and at the end said it was just another part of poor christianity. So if Witness Lee or the churches are condemned for their view of denominations and christianity, how does brother Al get a pass for saying the same thing after he supposedly is now enlightened and leaving? Makes no sense. From what I can tell, he feels the Recovery is falling short of being better than general Christianity so still seeking that superiority, he is leaving. Ruth can excuse it as not being a superior attitude by some mental gymnastics, but if one is separating oneself from the fellowship with those who are poor in one's own view, that is taking a position of superiority and not extending any help to those who are poor to help them become rich. People always write letters as they are going out the door. Or in some cases, make videos. Staying to help is a real sacrifice. If looking down on denominations and general Christianity (and thus other Christians) is to be condemned, Al should also be condemned for having the same view. Or perhaps the warning is, one can be a very dear brother or sister in the Lord who has views that don't really express the feelings of Christ toward His members.
@@bandsoflove Denominations are not the believers. Systems are not the church. Publication companies are not ministry. Sin is not God’s testimony. Christianity is not equal to Christians. Jesus through John was not criticizing believers in Rev. as being inferior- the Spirit spoke to the churches words that all of us can and should take to heart. And some of those words address spiritual poverty and blindness and nakedness… and pride. Brother Al addressed specific and legitimate concerns related to contradictions between beliefs/teachings and practices. If such contradictions exist… and they do, that is hypocrisy. God desires us to worship in spirit and truthfulness, reality, sincerity… with no hypocrisy. If there is hypocrisy anywhere in Christianity, it is a blessing for it to be exposed. And if a Christian group condemns “Christianity” for very same practices they also practice, a brother pointing that out is not necessarily a hypocrite, considering himself superior, etc.
I am not “out the door.” Most of these ones speaking out are NOT out the door of God’s house. We are seeking restoration of universal fellowship with ALL believers, which also requires repentance from sins long covered up.
What door are you referring to? A door in/out of “The Lord’s Recovery”? Because if there is such a door - it is sectarian and divisive and exclusive to “others”… and people can “leave” or “come into” this group beyond simply believing in Christ and confessing His name and being baptized into the one Body… and maintaining fellowship with all believers by obeying God’s commandments, especially that we love Him and we love one another… without partiality…
You are right. There IS a door into/out of TLR.
It is sectarian, divisive and exclusive.
The group’s teachings/practices don’t align - there is extreme hypocrisy.
The teachings contradict and go beyond the Bible.
These are major problems - causing serious damage - that more and more believers are sincerely confronting and addressing by speaking the truth. In love.
Your video has nothing to do with the spiritual growth and maturity so this things are nonsense and waste.
You just described your inane comments! You share NOTHING having to do with spiritual growth. You must still be one of the blinded ones. Open your eyes! Now would be good.
What do spiritual growth & maturity mean to you? Have you been attending the winter training? I thought this is day 2 of it. Could you share your enjoyment? I'm always down for some genuine or practical spiritual enlightenment, whether or not it applies currently or personally, as long as it's not ill intended or tainted w/ too much self-importance by the persons who deliver it...
@@samuelingalls5424
I have a conspiracy theory that Aurora actually loves Ruth’s speaking but just wants to appear to hate them so they don’t give themselves away.
That’s why they keep coming back!
If this is true, though, then that must mean that Aurora is in a lot of pain.
I am not sure how you define "spiritual growth and maturity" and how you define "nonsense and waste":
Here is the letter, as much as will fit here, and I don't consider this "nonsense" or "waste":
Dear Brothers,
Having participated in the church-life and in elder’s fellowships with some of you for over fifteen years, I trust that something has been built up between us, and that this fellowship can be received in love and sincerity.
My concern for the present situation among us has become very heavy. The aspects which I list here as THE TRUTH are some of the factors which won my heart to give the past eighteen years of my life to the recovery. All of them were at some time declared and held among us. My observation is that while we may still be speaking these truths our present practice has sadly drifted. I have visited many churches in four continents during the past two years, and my decision to share these matters has come after more than one year of considering and praying about them. It seems to me that unless the Lord could have much mercy and rescue us, we have very little ground for considering ourselves other than a poor denomination.
I recognize that I owe a great debt to the recovery and have received much light and help from Bro. Lee. I feel I must however, be faithful to express what I see; in the fear of the Lord, but without fear or favor of man.
Please consider these matters soberly and objectively before the Lord.
1. The WORD is our only supreme authority. All the saints should be encouraged to love it and to feel free to seek life and light from it, and to gain skill in handling and interpreting it.
OUR PRACTICE: The Word should be read in the Recovery Version and can be understood properly only with the use of the foot-notes and life-studies. No one would dare to suggest another view, nor could anyone see light beyond what has been given by “the ministry.“
2. The MINISTRY is the dispensing of Christ into His saints for the building up of the church. All who minister life and the revelation of God’s New Testament economy are ministers and have a part in this ministry.
OUR PRACTICE: In our present vocabulary and practice the “ministry” is Witness Lee and whatever he has written or says, and the way he says it. Anything written or spoken by another person, especially if he is not in the “recovery” is “old” or taking us backward.
3. SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY is endowed upon a person by the Lord. It will be perceived and realized in the saints and substantiated by the Lord. “We should never say so much as one word on behalf of our own authority; rather let us give people the liberty. The more God entrusts to us, the more liberty we grant people.” Spiritual Authority by W. Nee, p. 121.
OUR PRACTICE: In nearly every conference or training we observe a declaration of authority. Old Testament cases of disobedience are cited, death and negativism are ascribed to any who do not agree and respond positively. Is this not an insidious form of control?
4. THE CHURCH ground implies that we are open to receive and accept all genuine believers. We should not demand certain practices or separate those who have a different feeling about matters not of the “faith.”
OUR PRACTICE: Those who have any reservation about any of our practices are “unclear”, “do not see the vision” and remain outsiders. Our ways are “God given” and our practices are, “God ordained.” This implicitly condemns all (those in the church or outside of it) who don’t fully embrace them. In this way we have thoroughly isolated ourselves from all other Christians.
5. Do not SEPARATE or make a distinction between the saints who may hold a different feeling about matters of form or practice.
OUR PRACTICE: Those who express reservations about the latest way or practice are regarded as “old”, “in death”, “negative”, “not clear”, “pouring cold water”, “blowing cold winds” and are set aside as far as the “Lord’s up-to-date move” is concerned.
6. There should be OPEN fellowship, in an atmosphere which allows all saints to “speak the truth in love.”
OUR PRACTICE: Speak about and report only the “positive.” Support whatever is being promoted, speak well of it, even inflate the statistics; meanwhile ignore any fact or evidence which shows a weakness or a failure. Of course in this way we never have a failure. Loyalty and blind approval is prized while objectivity and honesty are strongly disapproved. Whoever stays “positive”, and confirms everything is “in”, and is often elevated, while those who speak their genuine concern are regarded as “negative”, and “undermining” and soon privately and perhaps publicly condemned.
7. There should be no effort to ORGANIZE or UNIFY the churches.
OUR PRACTICE: Constant pressure is applied through trainings, videos, and slogans to push churches and saints to conform. Elders are belittled, as being “old”, “ambitious”, “big-speakers”, and “undermining”, if they do not bring their churches into conformity. LIFE LESSONS & TRUTH LESSONS are promoted as the only way to properly express the truth and help new believers. (These are some of the aspects that caused me to leave the denomination years ago.)
8. Do not get involved in “HOW TO”, or in the promoting of ways. The natural always wants to know “how to.” This will only produce behavior and outward form. It is not the way of life. Life will issue from the abiding and this will produce organic fruit.
OUR PRACTICE: In recent months, messages and books are flooding us with “THE WAY TO…” There is a “way” and a “how to” given for whatever we do or say. The saints are learning now only how to behave but are put in the realm of policing others, especially the elders, so all freedom is lost.
9. The Lord’s GOAL IS THE CHURCH. Whatever we do must be for the building up of the church. The ministry exists not to build up itself but the local churches. “If God’s people could only see that the object of all ministry is the founding of local churches and not the grouping of Christians around any particular individual, truth, or experience or under any particular organization, then the forming of sects could be avoided. We who serve the Lord must be willing to let go our hold upon all those to whom we have ministered, and let the fruits of our ministry pass into local churches governed entirely by local men.” The Normal Christian Church Life by W. Nee, p 91.
OUR PRACTICE: There is very little time or energy for building up the local church. Time, money, and resources are constantly exhausted in order to defend, protect, supply, build up, and “meet the need” of the ministry by “serving the ministry in the ministry’s way.” Videos, conferences, trainings, and standing book orders have all become necessary to “keep current with the ministry.”
10. We MEET in the name of the Lord. All the saints have the freedom to share as the Spirit gives them utterance.
OUR PRACTICE: Everyone is measured by whether they speak “the ministry.” Truth Lessons, Life studies, and foot-notes are proper ways to speak or express anything. The safest way is just to read with little or no comment. Surely this is CONTROL, and must offend the headship of the One in whose name we meet.
In The Normal Christian Church Life, p. 92-93 Bro. Nee warns: “Whenever a special leader, or a specific doctrine, or some experience, or creed, or organization, becomes a center for drawing together the believers of different places, then because the center of such a church federation is other than Christ, it follows that its sphere will be other than local. And whenever the divinely-appointed sphere of locality is displaced by a sphere of human invention, there the divine approval cannot rest. The believers within such a sphere may truly love the Lord, but they have another center apart from Him, and it is only natural that the second center becomes the controlling one. It is contrary to human nature to stress what we have in common with others; we always emphasize what is ours in particular. Christ is the common center of all the churches, but any company of believers that have a leader, a doctrine, an experience, a creed, or an organization as their center of fellowship, will find that that center becomes the center, and it is that center by which they determine who belongs to them and who does not. The center always determines the sphere, and the second center creates a sphere which divides those who attach themselves to it from those who do not.”
“Anything that becomes a center to unite believers of different places will create a sphere which includes all believers who attach themselves to that center and excludes all who do not. This dividing line will destroy the God-appointed boundary of locality, and consequently destroy the very nature of the churches of God.”
Brothers I beg you, I plead with you, please consider objectively; is this not our case? Is this the reality of the vision that caught us, and is it still clear and pure? Is there a possibility that while we condemn, “poor Christianity”, that we are like Laodicea, saying, “I am rich…and do not know that we are…poor and blind…?
May the Lord find room in our hearts to extend His mercy, that we might repent. Perhaps we might be rescued and restored to His blessing.
@@Peanut9527 🤣🤣what do they say: jealousy is disguised compliment/affirmation?