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Wow that's quite a curt stmt😱🧐. What does that mean pls?

Nobody amens except for you because you want it your way😅... Heydays for victims vs moments of truth for perpetrators, enablers & condoners...

@@Love_Cruelty... Perhaps, if you were a bit more careful in your disposition toward those who you think oppose your conclusions, you would have first thought to ask why I say "...Amen..." at the end of all my comments. Then, based on the answer you received, you may be a little more informed and could come to a conclusion that would include it. As for "...Heydays for victims vs moments of truth for perpetrators..."... Both heydays and moments of truth are of the Lord... So I try only to look away to Him so as to be one with His way. Annndddd.... Amen.

1. Where does it say that the same person who practices Matthew 18 can't also be one who shouts from the rooftops? ("Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. 2There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, and nothing hidden that will not be made known. 3What you have spoken in the dark will be heard in the daylight, and what you have whispered in the inner rooms will be proclaimed from the housetops". Luke 12:1b-3) 2. One can forgive from the heart and still speak out about undealt with patterns of abuse, sins and cover-up, so that works of darkness are exposed and overcome by the light, and abusive patterns could be addressed and end. 3. I want GOD to have His way. My way means nothing. God knows what "my way" is... I sure don't believe losing my former church community, whom I love so much, would be "my way." GOD'S Word is being disobeyed and little ones are being stumbled. 4. God has a lot to do with heathen and tax collectors and sinners, and never told us to have nothing to do with them, but by example came FOR such ones.- us, who were once far off and dead in offenses and sins. God does not treat them as anathema. He does not " have nothing further to do with them as best [He] can" but cares for their salvation. Where do you get that conclusion, that we are to have as little as possible to do with tax collectors and sinners? That's all I will say for now, @aboveandbeyond9844. Thanks for the feedback about verbosity, and any fellowship of spirit. If words can be evaluated as to how life-giving they are, yours typically give me a very grieved feeling. But you will probably quote 2 Cor 2:16, or correct me for quoting it, how I am misapplying it, etc...? "To one a fragrance from death to death, to the other a fragrance from life to life. Who is sufficient for these things?" I know that my goal is LOVE out of a pure heart, and a pure conscience, and unfeigned faith, and in my experience and observations, there are the opposite of this in many of TLR practices, and we can all repent for anything not LOVE toward God and toward one another.... Proverbs 31:8-9 ESV Open your mouth for the mute, for the rights of all who are destitute. Open your mouth, judge righteously, defend the rights of the poor and needy. James 5:19-20 ESV - My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. Ephesians 4:25 ESV - Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another.

​@@ruthwise2159 says... "1. Where does it say that the same person who practices Matthew 18 can't also be one who shouts from the rooftops? ("Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. 2There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, and nothing hidden that will not be made known. 3What you have spoken in the dark will be heard in the daylight, and what you have whispered in the inner rooms will be proclaimed from the housetops". Luke 12:1b-3)" Here again you're trying to build a dishonest strawman... As I did not say nor suggest "...that the same person who practices Matthew 18 can't also be one who shouts from the rooftops...". What I did say is that claiming to practice Matthew 18 - really, one specific verse in Matthew 18, not the whole chapter - should be limited to what is actually said in Matthew 18... Which is "...tell it to the church; and if he refuses to hear the church also, let him be to you just like the Gentile and the tax collector..."... Nothing there about shout it from the roof tops... And the context of the scripture that deals with shouting from the rooftops (cross reference Matthew 10:26-27) is that of preaching/teaching/ministering the gospel of God... It has nothing to do with exposing the sinful acts of believers. In Luke 12:1-4, Jesus says that He is speaking to "...My friends..." (verse 4), which confirms that He was not saying that what the Pharisees speak in a hidden/covered manner... But that what the disciples - His "...friends..." - spoke in a hidden/covered manner would be "...revealed...", "...made known...", "...proclaimed from the housetops...". So here again you expose your poor understanding if scripture by speaking in error regarding it. In Numbers 32:23, we read that our sin will find us out... And the context is that God is who causes our sin to be revealed. In this matter of the "...leading ones..." of TLR, and others now dead, relation to sin and other waywardness... It is God who will cause it all to be revealed and dealt with... Not Ruth... You could live to a hundred and make five videos every day... But if the Lord wants to keep TLR and its leadership going... He will do just that. But in your mind, based on your speaking, you seem to think that you, along with some others, can cause the downfall of those you are critical of... And yet, you're the one who has been put out of the church you say you want to be apart of... And this has happened because the Lord has allowed it to happen. Moving on... You ask... "Where do you get that conclusion, that we are to have as little as possible to do with tax collectors and sinners?" From the Bible... The God-given tool that I continually refer to. 2 Corinthains 6:14... "Do not become dissimilarly yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what fellowship does light have with darkness?" And... 2 Corinthians 6:17... "Therefore "come out from their midst and be separated, says the Lord, and do not touch what is unclean; and I will welcome you'';...". If you are so unclear about what the difference is between preaching the gospel to all, while at the same time coming out from teh midst of them... Then you are surely are far more lacking in biblical understanding that I had thought. Everything that I have spoken to you is just my speaking... Until the Lord causes my speaking to be revealed in your experience... Then my words, becomes His reality revealed and experienced in your life/living. I have no expectation of you, of your own accord, receiving what I have said... I am very clear that only the Lord makes things clear to us... And that is what the apostle Paul was speaking to in 2 Corinthians 2:16... The sufficiency of the apostles was of the Lord, not themselves... And I absolutely hold to what the apostle Paul said. The words that I speak to you are spoken in the faith that in His time and in His way the Lord will bring you into the reality of them. May the Lord do so with us all. Amen.

Thank you, the motive and year of writing these books by Watchman is really important in assessing their actual significance.

And yet, John Smith referenced Watchman Nee's writings in a positive manner multiple times in his letter. So, regarding Watchman Nee's ministry writings... On the one hand, we have your negative conclusions... And on the other hand, we have John Smith's positive conclusions. And for me... I have my own experience before the Lord with Watchman Nee's ministry writings... And I have been blessed in the Lord by them. I thank God that I place absolutely no value in the conclusions of man. The church is Christ Jesus... And Christ Jesus is reality expressed... Therefore the church is reality expressed. Anything outside of this is just fallen man trying to come off as the church... Much like Just is trying to come off as having some understanding of God's ways. Honestly... Just sounds like a Roman Catholic shrill, determined to speak as much anti-Lee/Nee rhetoric as possible, so as to turn people away from their ministries. "...cult..." doesn't exist outwardly, it is an inward psychological condition, to which many, maybe even people like Just, and certainly those who hold to the utter folly of Roman Catholicism religion, can suffer... Including those in the Local Church movement... No doubt about it. But the psychological condition of people doesn't negate what God can bring out of the ministry of those He has called, and given the measure of grace to produce/present His ministry... And both Nee and Lee were called by God and given a measure of grace to produce/present His ministry. Of this, I have no doubt. But God's supply of grace for the carrying out of a work on this earth does not guarantee there will be no falling back into our fallen man/sin... As can often be seen happening to some in biblical scripture. May the Lord keep us all guarded against falling away, even as we are useful to Him in His one work on this earth. Amen.

@@aboveandbeyond9844 it sounds like you’re suggesting God can work within the cult of the local churches. to that I wouldn’t actually disagree completely. I’ve said this before that there is some spiritual food in Nee and Lee ministry. however despite that it does help people, the cult environment hurts them. it’s a catch-22 you’re welcome to disagree all you like, but sexual abuse, psychological abuse, social abuse, and emotional abuse have been a staple within the local churches and still are to this day you don’t sound like a rationally sober minded person to be frank with you. your sentences come across very garbled and borderline incoherent at times. I find that the local churches attract and or produce a lot of mentally stunted people. I believe probably this is a fruit of belonging to a cult that controls people’s minds If I were you I’d pray for mental clarity and to be freed from the prison that you seem to be in

​​@@aboveandbeyond9844The Church is the pillar and support of the Truth. The New Testament apostles affirmed the Truth in the churches without adding anything to It or withholding anything from It. If the church consists of spiritual and carnal believers, it is not equivalent to Christ. We understood how the works of these gurus edify believers by your attitude towards the unnecessarily and cruelly injured people in this community. What does the Bible itself mean to you? Does it lead you to Christ? You seem to be very fanatical about these gurus. You have researched the works of W.Nee for compliance with the Truth? Do you have the spiritual discernment, after 20 years in church life, to filter what corresponds to the Truth in his writings and what is human fabrications and it harms believers and does not contribute to their spiritual growth?

​@@aboveandbeyond9844 You wrote: God's grace to do the work on this earth does not guarantee that we will not return to our fallen man/sin... As can often be seen in the Bible writings, it happens to some people. Then give an example of such people from the Bible and how it relates to the topic presented. According to 1 Samuel 1-4, during the period, Elijah and his two sons, Hophni and Phinehas (Hophni and Pinchas), were priests of the "Temple of the Lord" in Shiloh (Shiloh), where the Tabernacle and the Ark of the Covenant were located at that time. The sons of Eli were licentious "worthless people; they did not know the Lord" 1 Samuel 2:12. Then a man of God was sent to Elijah, who announced the punishment for their wickedness. What happened was that during the war with the Philistines, the Israelites took the Ark of the Covenant with them to the battlefield. The priests, the two sons of Elijah, touched the ark with God's presence. As a result, Israel suffered a crushing defeat, both of Elijah's sons died, and the Ark fell into enemy hands. Upon learning that the ark was lost, Eli fell from his seat, broke his spine, and died at the age of 98. Upon learning of the death of her father-in-law and husband, Elijah's daughter-in-law gave birth to a son, whom she named Ichabod ("disgrace"), because "the glory has departed from Israel," she exclaimed as she died, "for the Ark of God has been taken" (1 Samuel 4:22). Previously, the ark had helped the Israelites win battles, but when the priests, the wicked sons of Elijah, touched it, the presence of God departed from them and they were defeated. You seem to be playing with God's righteousness and holiness?

Then again, if we let them spew their nonsense, others can see very clearly for themselves the kind of twisted mentality that is held by far too many in The Lord’s Recovery.

@@HelenChikina a.co/d/avmPB7G (https has to go before, then ://, but I don’t think TH-cam could moments allow live links… on Amazon, it shows up if you type in My Unforgettable Memories. And I apologize- a sister let me know I kept saying Dr. Lee in the video😳… Dr. Lily Hsu is the author. Yes- and it was co-authored in English by Dana Roberts who had thoroughly studied Nee’s writings and when Dr. Hsu asked him to help with the English version of her book, he traveled to China to verify all the claims, knowing how serious they are and how law-suit probed LSM/TLR is. He spoke to many who affirmed everything as factual in this book.

​@@ruthwise2159 Thank you, this is a good addition.

@@JoelElim-o7m Who told you these brothers weren’t/aren’t one? I have no sense of not being one with any believer. I’m just not one with sins and idolatry and supremacy of anyone but Christ, and I don’t think I’m an exception to those who don’t agree with hypocrisy, sin, idolatry and elitism among Christians…. I don’t know your definition of oneness, but it doesn’t seem like the oneness of the Spirit - or being one in soul, thinking the one thing… is something you can judge… unless there is corroboration of these brothers living in or being complicit in sin and being unwilling to repent. Let me/us know how you have determined these brothers aren’t/weren’t one.

🤣🤣🤣 thought I was reading a dated advertisement strategy...

@@ruthwise2159 You have to remember that the Local Churches have concepts such as the “one publication” mandate. If we aren’t all worshipping and praying and conducting ourselves in the same copy-and-paste manner under Lee’s ministry, they see it as “not being one.” The only way to be “one” in their eyes is to become Witness Lee tape recorders.

​​@@Peanut9527 wow tape recorders?😅never heard of it, maybe not circulating outside the inner circle?... but I've heard that God has tape recordings of each & everyone, which really flustered me initially bc iwas visualizing a vicious stalker watching you, or a pedantic teacher w/ menacing looks, projecting their OCD onto others, nitpicking on ur every move, until God told me to relax, and some ppl inspired me that the tape recordings serve as a warning to the godless, and a reminder to the God fearing ppl to spend the time wisely, and a memoir of moments u shared with the Lord...

@@Peanut9527 Then, yes, under that definition, these brothers are not “one” as tape recorders. But speaking the “same thing” in the Bible should NOT be speaking ONLY what one member speaks. We all have different portions of the same Christ… and these dear brothers had/have such precious even indispensable portions and were shunned by leaders and followers in TLR. 💔

@@RobertTaylor and there is SO much “out” there to receive life from… when I started attending various “other” gatherings, tears would be streaming down my face because there was so much life and I’d been told for decades that every other group of believers was dead and degraded.

Robert can you give one example of a life-giving portion that is not already expounded in the ministry of Witness Lee. For our education of course.

@ I’m not Robert but he is my brother, and I’d like to share some extremely precious fellowship that I listened to last night: th-cam.com/video/xughUwlr2lw/w-d-xo.html

@bandsoflove wow😅😅... Ok joke aside, did the ministry talk about constantly (made to) feeling guilty that can lead to depression, vs repentance, for example?

@@bandsoflove the fact you ask this question is a testimony for outsiders to see all they need to know. What an amazing non-answer to my challenge! Answering a question with a question is a tactic of deception. Go ahead and explain what you mean behind your question: that all life-giving ministry is contained in LSM publications and apart from this there is only repeats, at best. Or do you mean something else?

@@maryscaletta7972 No- I appreciate it. A main convincing factor to me is that both sister-coworkers also described the crime against each of them and there was corroboration between their statements and WNee’s confessions. And multiple witnesses were there for those victims’ statements. The sister whose nude footage stated Nee’s reasons for taking the nude photos, and he gave the same statement to the government

​@@ruthwise2159Okay, wow, that's very interesting. When did the expo happen? Was he already in prison? Was the expo to show the church why he was arrested or was it before he was arrested and imprisoned? I lean more toward that this probably happened. I still have some room to believe this could have been a set up. Not much, but some. It's just that when you have a whole government going after you, if that's what happened, those sisters could have been told what to say and forced to say it. I'm not saying I believe that's what happened, I'm just pointing out where the holes of doubt could be. It would be good if the holes could be completely plugged and verified, if at all possible. If this is the truth, it would be healthy for us to know without a shadow of a doubt, beyond a reasonable doubt, so that we once again learn the lesson that the Bible, Jesus, and even Watchman Nee and Witness Lee teach: • Every human is a sinner. • No one should be trusted wholly. • Everyone should be safe (have witnesses) when they are around finances and members of the opposite sex they aren't married to them. • No member of the Body of Christ should be raised up, even if only in our minds and hearts, to be an infallible, "if they said it then it's from God", "teacher", "master", "Father". For we are all just fallible brothers and sisters aspiring to be "in Christ" but still learning and always able to fail and fail miserably. All of us should be discerned and held accountable-any leader all the more. In fact, the more gifted they are, the more they should be scrutinized. You are scrutinizing Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, and that is healthy, right, and in order. We all should. We all should be mature enough to hold to opposing thoughts in our minds: People can be gifts to the body while also being the sinners that we all are.

@@aboveandbeyond9844 Who is whining? What we do to the least of these, we do to Him. I am speaking out to prohibit, as much as I can, the continued stumbling of the least of these, to comfort any who, like me, have been abused in what should be the safest place - the church - the Father’s house.

@@ruthwise2159 says... "...I am speaking out to prohibit,...". The Lord, our God, says... "I am the vine; you are the branches. He who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing." Your "...I..." can do absolutely nothing, Ruth... That is your error. May the Lord, in His time, correct you and bring you back into Himself as your living and being. Amen.

@ Yes, apart from Him we can do nothing. Are you saying I am apart from the One into Whom I have been grafted, to whom I am joined as one spirit, and the One Whom I love to the uttermost? The Bible also says “I can do all things through Him who empowers me.”

​@@ruthwise2159 says... "Are you saying I am apart from the One into Whom I have been grafted, to whom I am joined as one spirit, and the One Whom I love to the uttermost?" Yes... Yes... And... Your choosing to be apart from Him exposes that you don't love Him "...to the uttermost...". If you properly understood what being grafted into Him actually means, you would not speak the error you've spoken in some of your videos... Likewise being joined "...as one spirit...". All you're doing here is claiming things you've read about in the Bible... But your speaking exposes your not possessing (living out) the reality of what you're claiming. Ephesians 2:12-13... "So then, my beloved, even as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but now much rather in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; . . . For it is God who operates in you both the willing and the working for His good pleasure." Being born-again of God by believing into Christ Jesus is the first phase... Following this, there now needs to be our cooperating with Him in His inward working/operating that produces "...His good pleasure..."... We're grafted into Him... We're joined with Him in our regenerated spirit, and we love Him with the love He has loved us with... But all three are testified to in an inward reality that is expressed outwardly in our daily living... And in this outward daily living that testifies to our being grafted into Christ Jesus, having Him in our spirit one with us and us one with Him, and loving Him to the uttermost, there can be seen the realization of our cooperating with Him and producing "...His good pleasure..."... This "...His good pleasure..." being the Father's beloved Son, Christ Jesus. It's all well and good to claim being grafted in, joined to the Spirit, and loving Him to the uttermost... But the proof is in the outward testimony of the claimed inward reality... This is what in video after video you have failed dismally at testifying. You are not testifying the Person of Christ in your videos, Ruth... You are simply expressing your natural man, which is fallen, as it is with us all. This is the context of Paul's speaking on working out our salvation... What is inside needs to be worked out into our outward testimony... Which, ironically, is in fact what you are demanding from those you're speaking to in your videos... As related to the TLR organization and any who seem to support it. Biblical scripture is absolutely clear, Ruth... We can't serve two masters, as the Lord said in Matthew 6:24... And He then went on to say... Matthew 6:25... "...Because of this, I say to you, Do not be anxious for your life, what you should eat or what you should drink; nor for your body, what you should put on. Is not the life more than food, and the body than clothing?" In every video of yours that I've watched, you have exhibited the opposite of "...Do not be anxious for your life...", thereby exposing that you are not holding to (cooperating with) the One into Whom you've been grafted, are joined with in spirit, and claim to "...love to the uttermost...". The videos of yours that I've watched do not confirm that you are standing in (abiding in) Christ, Ruth... They expose the opposite. And this is what, from my first comments to your videos, I've been trying to draw your attention to, and encourage you to correct. Anyone can criticize poor/immoral behavior in others... But the Lord has called us to a higher standard... One in which we must do all things in and through Him... And this is something that your own words expose you as not doing... And I can say this because of the errors you make in relation to alignment with biblical scripture. Which brings me to this that you said... "The Bible also says “I can do all things through Him who empowers me.” Yes, it most certainly does... But this is only realized when we are doing "...all things through Him..."... Not doing "...all things claiming to be through Him...". I wonder if you fully understand how "...all things through Him..." actually works, Ruth? Here you go... Matthew 16:24-25... "Then Jesus said to His disciples, If anyone wants to come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me. . . . For whoever wants to save his soul-life shall lose it; but whoever loses his soul-life for My sake shall find it." Our being able to do "...all things through Him..." is only possible when we "...deny..." ourselves, "...take up..." our "...cross...", and follow Jesus... Meaning, lose our soul life. You don't sound like someone desperately pursuing the loss of your soul life, Ruth... You sound like someone desperately trying to use it to recover more of what pleased it... And therein is the seed/root of your continual error. May the Lord save you, and us all, out of our continual turning to our old fallen man. Amen.

@@ruthwise2159 ​says... "Are you saying I am apart from the One into Whom I have been grafted, to whom I am joined as one spirit, and the One Whom I love to the uttermost?" Yes... Yes... And... Your choosing to be apart from Him exposes that you don't love Him "...to the uttermost...". If you properly understood what being grafted into Him actually means, you would not speak the error you've spoken in some of your videos... Likewise being joined "...as one spirit...". All you're doing here is claiming things you've read about in the Bible... But your speaking exposes your not possessing (living out) the reality of what you're claiming. Ephesians 2:12-13... "So then, my beloved, even as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but now much rather in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; . . . For it is God who operates in you both the willing and the working for His good pleasure." Being born-again of God by believing into Christ Jesus is the first phase... Following this, there now needs to be our cooperating with Him in His inward working/operating that produces "...His good pleasure..."... We're grafted into Him... We're joined with Him in our regenerated spirit, and we love Him with the love He has loved us with... But all three are testified to in an inward reality that is expressed outwardly in our daily living... And in this outward daily living that testifies to our being grafted into Christ Jesus, having Him in our spirit one with us and us one with Him, and loving Him to the uttermost, there can be seen the realization of our cooperating with Him and producing "...His good pleasure..."... This "...His good pleasure..." being the Father's beloved Son, Christ Jesus. It's all well and good to claim being grafted in, joined to the Spirit, and loving Him to the uttermost... But the proof is in the outward testimony of the claimed inward reality... This is what in video after video you have failed dismally at testifying. You are not testifying the Person of Christ in your videos, Ruth... You are simply expressing your natural man, which is fallen, as it is with us all. This is the context of Paul's speaking on working out our salvation... What is inside needs to be worked out into our outward testimony... Which, ironically, is in fact what you are demanding from those you're speaking to in your videos... As related to the TLR organization and any who seem to support it. Biblical scripture is absolutely clear, Ruth... We can't serve two masters, as the Lord said in Matthew 6:24... And He then went on to say... Matthew 6:25... "...Because of this, I say to you, Do not be anxious for your life, what you should eat or what you should drink; nor for your body, what you should put on. Is not the life more than food, and the body than clothing?" In every video of yours that I've watched, you have exhibited the opposite of "...Do not be anxious for your life...", thereby exposing that you are not holding to (cooperating with) the One into Whom you've been grafted, are joined with in spirit, and claim to "...love to the uttermost...". The videos of yours that I've watched do not confirm that you are standing in (abiding in) Christ, Ruth... They expose the opposite. And this is what, from my first comments to your videos, I've been trying to draw your attention to, and encourage you to correct. Anyone can criticize poor/immoral behavior in others... But the Lord has called us to a higher standard... One in which we must do all things in and through Him... And this is something that your own words expose you as not doing... And I can say this because of the errors you make in relation to alignment with biblical scripture. Which brings me to this that you said... "The Bible also says “I can do all things through Him who empowers me.” Yes, it most certainly does... But this is only realized when we are doing "...all things through Him..."... Not doing "...all things claiming to be through Him...". I wonder if you fully understand how "...all things through Him..." actually works, Ruth? Here you go... Matthew 16:24-25... "Then Jesus said to His disciples, If anyone wants to come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me. . . . For whoever wants to save his soul-life shall lose it; but whoever loses his soul-life for My sake shall find it." Our being able to do "...all things through Him..." is only possible when we "...deny..." ourselves, "...take up..." our "...cross...", and follow Jesus... Meaning, lose our soul life. You don't sound like someone desperately pursuing the loss of your soul life, Ruth... You sound like someone desperately trying to use it to recover more of what pleased it... And therein is the seed/root of your continual error. May the Lord save you, and us all, out of our continual turning to our old fallen man. Amen.

@@JT-nu1oi Perhaps addressing sins of idolatry and immorality, one is in a valley of death… but speaking helps me to get out of any type of darkness and oppression. And though we do at times walk THROUGH the valley of the shadow of death, we are not afraid because HE is with us. Emmanuel. I enjoyed that in the service I went to today - to Mary, to Joseph, to the shepherds and to the wisemen… the words “Do not be afraid” were spoken… instead of fear, we have good tidings of great joy, peace, salvation…. As far as giving all this to Jesus, it was never mine. But it is ours to expose works of darkness, and to treat brothers who refuse to repent as unbelievers - not as God’s deputy authority.

Just says... "... a major reason she left her faith was because of Nee’s sins...". Then her "...faith..." was not sure... Possibly because, if her words are to be believed, her faith was a matter of her natural human reasonings regarding Watchman Nee... And was not the working/operating Spirit of Christ within her. Praise the Lord that He caused her to be stumbled in her own self-generated "...faith..."... So that He could bring her back to Himself, the reality of our Christian faith. If the words that Ruth read are listened to with a pure heart before the Lord, we will immediately know that Hsu's "...faith..." was in Nee, not Christ Jesus... And in that, even in all her natural brilliance, she failed before the Lord. And this failure continued in her writings. I hope the Lord has saved her out of her failures. Amen.

@@aboveandbeyond9844 🙄

_Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!_ *(Matthew 18:7)*

@@aboveandbeyond9844that is untrue. The brainwashing in the LR is quite perfected. Perhaps Lily Hsu’s faith was tested then strengthened. I know that after reading Jo Casteel’s letter my faith was shaken to the core. I believed and gave everything for Christ and the church. It took some years, but the Lord is faithful to draw us back to Himself. Of course we trust the ones leading us. Of course we sh out of be appalled and shaken by the heinous sins of a believer in Christ (even if only in name). Where do you turn, then? After the leading ones betrayed you? After you were poisoned against ‘fallen Christendom’ and threatened with outer darkness and death for leaving the local churches? Please continue to expose the sin, Ruth

@@Peanut9527... Absolutely... But can you show me the verse where Jesus says that one believer judges another with a "...woe..."? Amen.

Which church is it?

@@thewealthofnations4827 living stream ministry

@@thewealthofnations4827 It has been referred to by several names. “The Lord’s Recovery” “The Local Churches” They follow the teachings of Witness Lee and study the bible according to the publications of a company called Living Stream Ministry.

Agreed.

You must not know Al Zehr, a very dear brother in the Lord! To know him is to love him, the very same thing so often said of my father!😊

@bandsoflove - Thanks for the math correction!! I was pretty tired last night! Yes, 36 years... I have no regrets. I am not sure where you got this. I am simply speaking out because I am a victim of unrighteousness and patterns of abuse of a system in which constituents, among whom I was one, consider themselves to be (in) the center of what God is doing on the earth, under God's oracle (the Minister of the Age, God's deputy authority...), becoming the overcomers to bring the Lord back, not degraded like "Christianity", etc. Yet in that system, there is gross immorality being covered up, and Scriptures being violated. My dad was excommunicated in this system, for doing his best to practice Matt. 18, when I was a child. My parents were missionaries and found "the" church when I was 5. I was a fervent lover of Jesus and a regenerated believer since I was 3.- I remember receiving the Lord. When my parents found "the" church I distinctly remember feeling like the most blessed human, particularly knowing I had family - God's family - all around the world. I still do have this family, but it is not exclusive of "particular" believers, and many of the family members who consider themselves "The Lord's Recovery" have demonstrated exclusivity and superiority to other members of God's family, and have turned a blind eye to abuse, to stumbling, etc. and I can't but speak out to those family members that people are being hurt. As far as dear Al Zehr mentioning a "poor denomination" - he was a Mennonite minister before taking the way of "The Lord's Recovery" for many years. He can speak to the poverty in a denomination and in his assessment of "The Lord's Recovery" - this is not, in my assessment, having a superior attitude; it is having a genuine assessment, as in Rev. 3 with Laodicea. There are many believers living in spiritual poverty. I am sure my brother Al would echo the words in Rev. 3: To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. 15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm-neither hot nor cold-I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. 19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me. 21 To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”

How is calling out unrighteousness “looking down” on a denomination?

​@@samuelingalls5424 I heard of him but didn't know him, but I did hear your father speak. I am sure Al was a dear brother, that is not in dispute. I'm just going by the letter Ruth just read. Al Zehr said the Recovery had become a poor denomination and at the end said it was just another part of poor christianity. So if Witness Lee or the churches are condemned for their view of denominations and christianity, how does brother Al get a pass for saying the same thing after he supposedly is now enlightened and leaving? Makes no sense. From what I can tell, he feels the Recovery is falling short of being better than general Christianity so still seeking that superiority, he is leaving. Ruth can excuse it as not being a superior attitude by some mental gymnastics, but if one is separating oneself from the fellowship with those who are poor in one's own view, that is taking a position of superiority and not extending any help to those who are poor to help them become rich. People always write letters as they are going out the door. Or in some cases, make videos. Staying to help is a real sacrifice. If looking down on denominations and general Christianity (and thus other Christians) is to be condemned, Al should also be condemned for having the same view. Or perhaps the warning is, one can be a very dear brother or sister in the Lord who has views that don't really express the feelings of Christ toward His members.

@@bandsoflove Denominations are not the believers. Systems are not the church. Publication companies are not ministry. Sin is not God’s testimony. Christianity is not equal to Christians. Jesus through John was not criticizing believers in Rev. as being inferior- the Spirit spoke to the churches words that all of us can and should take to heart. And some of those words address spiritual poverty and blindness and nakedness… and pride. Brother Al addressed specific and legitimate concerns related to contradictions between beliefs/teachings and practices. If such contradictions exist… and they do, that is hypocrisy. God desires us to worship in spirit and truthfulness, reality, sincerity… with no hypocrisy. If there is hypocrisy anywhere in Christianity, it is a blessing for it to be exposed. And if a Christian group condemns “Christianity” for very same practices they also practice, a brother pointing that out is not necessarily a hypocrite, considering himself superior, etc. I am not “out the door.” Most of these ones speaking out are NOT out the door of God’s house. We are seeking restoration of universal fellowship with ALL believers, which also requires repentance from sins long covered up. What door are you referring to? A door in/out of “The Lord’s Recovery”? Because if there is such a door - it is sectarian and divisive and exclusive to “others”… and people can “leave” or “come into” this group beyond simply believing in Christ and confessing His name and being baptized into the one Body… and maintaining fellowship with all believers by obeying God’s commandments, especially that we love Him and we love one another… without partiality… You are right. There IS a door into/out of TLR. It is sectarian, divisive and exclusive. The group’s teachings/practices don’t align - there is extreme hypocrisy. The teachings contradict and go beyond the Bible. These are major problems - causing serious damage - that more and more believers are sincerely confronting and addressing by speaking the truth. In love.

Many believers, even those who have left W. Lee's ministry, continue to consider W.Nee is your spiritual teacher. You probably feel the same way as the author of this book when she found out about the indecent behavior of her spiritual leader. It's not easy to accept, it takes a lot of time. Why shouldn't we believe the testimony of this woman who published this book not so long ago, at the end of her long life?, obviously, watching all the events in this community. If we know for sure from the books of W. Lee's ministry that W.Nee left the church in Shanghai for several years for serious reasons that are hidden, and his difficult return was organized by Witness Lee, who himself describes in detail how it was awkward and uncomfortable for Watchman Nee to sit even at different ends of the same table with the faithful... Lee subsequently held a conference with a special revelation for the sake of restoring W.Nee, after which W.Nee said he would return if the believers handed over to U.Whether there is a special written statement. There are clearly serious misunderstandings and distortions on the part of W. Lee in this description of events in the book "The Seer of Divine Revelation."Whether to embellish everything so much, almost deified W.Nee, which led to their cult among believers. And I also read the history of Chinese Christian movements, which describes that in one area of WuLee was proclaimed God by believers, and he did not react in any way, like Paul in Acts, when he tore his clothes to prove that he was an ordinary person... But most of all, I am interested in the question, has anyone of you really thoroughly checked all the teachings of W. Nee for conformity to God's Word? Where does the origin of heretical teachings, thinly disguised as biblical ones, come from? You keep counting W.Not sinless? The way W. described it to us.Is it in your book? That is, we must again trust W. unconditionally.Whether in the assessment of W.Nee? By turning to Ruth and criticizing her, you are on the right path to follow not a man, but Jesus, in order to become his disciples, getting rid of all idols.

How and for what purpose did the Lord use the "local churches" of W.Nee and W. Lee, it is possible to spread the gospel, but as far as the true building of the church is concerned, we do not see the Holy Spirit in "LR", this is not their business.

​@@HelenChikina says... "Many believers, even those who have left W. Lee's ministry, continue to consider W.Nee is your spiritual teacher." Witness Lee is dead... He died in 1997, which was some twenty-seven years ago... Therefore anyone holding to him as a "...spiritual teacher..." is holding to a dead man... And biblical scripture is clear... God is living, and wants us to hold to that which is living... God wants us to hold to Him, and Him alone. Knowing this, I don't, and never have, held to Witness Lee as my "...spiritual teacher..."... I don't hold to any living man, and even less, any dead man... Others may... I don't. I hold to God... And I fully believe/know that God brought me in contact with Witness Lee's ministry speaking... And as such, I receive his speaking as being of God, trusting that God brought me in contact with Lee's speaking for the purpose of working out my salvation before Him... Even with fear and trembling. And I apply the same believing/knowing to my speaking here with you, Helen... And with Ruth... And Just... And Peanut... I know that it is God who governs my daily experiences, and so I receive them as being from God... And I have certainly had my fair share of, humanly speaking, bad experiences. When I read Witness Lee's, Watchman Nee's, Oswald Chambers', Jessie Penn-Lewis', and a host of other ministry speaking... I try to do so in the Lord... Not looking to myself, but to Him for clarification and edification... Biblical scripture is clear... God can speak through whomever He chooses to speak through... Even those who, to our human view, seem a moral abomination. And I in fact believe that God often tests us by using people who we may have a natural human problem with, to expose where we are - or are not - in our growth in life in Him. I trust no man... End of story. Yet I know from God's breathed-out word that He can cause stones to cry out in praise to the Lord... Therefore I know that God can speak even through the most despicable man... And when God speaks... I need to have an ear to hear what He is saying... Which can only take place if I deny myself and all of my natural thoughts and conclusions regarding the person who God has chosen to speak through. Is everything that Witness Lee spoke/wrote without error... Perhaps not... Not I know from God's breathed-out word that He can bring good from that which was meant for evil... So I try not to get distracted into judging what anyone says, in the context of doing so apart from the Lord... And just seek to judge within the Lord... Meaning, His judgment becomes my judgment. I don't need to "...thoroughly..." check anyone or anything... I only need to be one with the Lord Spirit within me... I need to be one with He who God has given me to reveal the reality of all things to me... This is what biblical scripture tells us... And I dearly want to, and try to, hold to what biblical scripture tells me. Our need is Jesus... Not our opinions/conclusions... No matter how "...right..." they may seem to us. And so I try to see Jesus at all times and in all things... Even in and during the times and things that seem so contrary to Him... I still endeavor to see Him. Why? Because biblical scripture tells us that all things are in Him, through Him, and unto Him... And that He is over all things... Even the things that seem so contrary to Him. In scripture, we read that the Lord instructed the disciples to cross the sea to go to the other side... Yet as they were doing so a storm came up and they thought they would all die... Was it not the same Lord who told them to take a boat to the other side, the Lord who allowed the storm to take place? So often we read scripture and yet pay little attention to what it is actually revealing to us... An then live our lives according to the poor attention to scripture we paid. How sad is that. But praise the Lord... He is saving us even out of our own foolishness. Amen.

​@@HelenChikina says... "...How and for what purpose did the Lord use the "local churches" of W.Nee and W. Lee...". Again... Poor seeing on your part, Helen. All things are in Him, through Him, and unto Him... Therefore, there is nothing apart from Him... Including anything called "...local churches...". This means that there is no such thing as "...the "local churches" of W.Nee and W. Lee...". When you come to properly understand this, Helen... Then you will begin to see the Lord and His way/economy. You continued... "...it is possible to spread the gospel, but as far as the true building of the church is concerned, we do not see the Holy Spirit in "LR", this is not their business." Based on your initial speaking error, it is not surprising that your error continued in what I quoted above. Helen... The "...true building of the church..." is only carried out and accomplished in and through the "...spread of the gospel..."... As the "...spread of the gospel..." is the spread of Christ Jesus, who is the gospel... And the building of the church is Christ Jesus being spread. And the "...Holy Spirit..." is for the spreading of the gospel... Therefore, if, as you said, the gospel was spread... Then this would confirm our seeing the "...Holy Spirit...". In the last five weeks, I have personally witnessed the "...Holy Spirit..." in the "...LR...", through being led by the Lord to contact a homeless person, invite this person to live in my home, bring them to a Sunday morning meeting, have another brother pray with them to receive the Lord as his Savior, be invited to a home meeting, and then two weeks later, ask to be baptized... He was baptized, with myself, and another brother participating in this person's baptism. Are you now going to blasphemy the '...Holy Spirit..." by saying that "...we do not see the Holy Spirit in "LR", this is not their business..."? I surely hope not. Amen.

How about starting your own channel? 😂😂

Are you ok? Are you safe?

You just described your inane comments! You share NOTHING having to do with spiritual growth. You must still be one of the blinded ones. Open your eyes! Now would be good.

What do spiritual growth & maturity mean to you? Have you been attending the winter training? I thought this is day 2 of it. Could you share your enjoyment? I'm always down for some genuine or practical spiritual enlightenment, whether or not it applies currently or personally, as long as it's not ill intended or tainted w/ too much self-importance by the persons who deliver it...

@@samuelingalls5424 I have a conspiracy theory that Aurora actually loves Ruth’s speaking but just wants to appear to hate them so they don’t give themselves away. That’s why they keep coming back! If this is true, though, then that must mean that Aurora is in a lot of pain.

I am not sure how you define "spiritual growth and maturity" and how you define "nonsense and waste": Here is the letter, as much as will fit here, and I don't consider this "nonsense" or "waste": Dear Brothers, Having participated in the church-life and in elder’s fellowships with some of you for over fifteen years, I trust that something has been built up between us, and that this fellowship can be received in love and sincerity. My concern for the present situation among us has become very heavy. The aspects which I list here as THE TRUTH are some of the factors which won my heart to give the past eighteen years of my life to the recovery. All of them were at some time declared and held among us. My observation is that while we may still be speaking these truths our present practice has sadly drifted. I have visited many churches in four continents during the past two years, and my decision to share these matters has come after more than one year of considering and praying about them. It seems to me that unless the Lord could have much mercy and rescue us, we have very little ground for considering ourselves other than a poor denomination. I recognize that I owe a great debt to the recovery and have received much light and help from Bro. Lee. I feel I must however, be faithful to express what I see; in the fear of the Lord, but without fear or favor of man. Please consider these matters soberly and objectively before the Lord. 1. The WORD is our only supreme authority. All the saints should be encouraged to love it and to feel free to seek life and light from it, and to gain skill in handling and interpreting it. OUR PRACTICE: The Word should be read in the Recovery Version and can be understood properly only with the use of the foot-notes and life-studies. No one would dare to suggest another view, nor could anyone see light beyond what has been given by “the ministry.“ 2. The MINISTRY is the dispensing of Christ into His saints for the building up of the church. All who minister life and the revelation of God’s New Testament economy are ministers and have a part in this ministry. OUR PRACTICE: In our present vocabulary and practice the “ministry” is Witness Lee and whatever he has written or says, and the way he says it. Anything written or spoken by another person, especially if he is not in the “recovery” is “old” or taking us backward. 3. SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY is endowed upon a person by the Lord. It will be perceived and realized in the saints and substantiated by the Lord. “We should never say so much as one word on behalf of our own authority; rather let us give people the liberty. The more God entrusts to us, the more liberty we grant people.” Spiritual Authority by W. Nee, p. 121. OUR PRACTICE: In nearly every conference or training we observe a declaration of authority. Old Testament cases of disobedience are cited, death and negativism are ascribed to any who do not agree and respond positively. Is this not an insidious form of control? 4. THE CHURCH ground implies that we are open to receive and accept all genuine believers. We should not demand certain practices or separate those who have a different feeling about matters not of the “faith.” OUR PRACTICE: Those who have any reservation about any of our practices are “unclear”, “do not see the vision” and remain outsiders. Our ways are “God given” and our practices are, “God ordained.” This implicitly condemns all (those in the church or outside of it) who don’t fully embrace them. In this way we have thoroughly isolated ourselves from all other Christians. 5. Do not SEPARATE or make a distinction between the saints who may hold a different feeling about matters of form or practice. OUR PRACTICE: Those who express reservations about the latest way or practice are regarded as “old”, “in death”, “negative”, “not clear”, “pouring cold water”, “blowing cold winds” and are set aside as far as the “Lord’s up-to-date move” is concerned. 6. There should be OPEN fellowship, in an atmosphere which allows all saints to “speak the truth in love.” OUR PRACTICE: Speak about and report only the “positive.” Support whatever is being promoted, speak well of it, even inflate the statistics; meanwhile ignore any fact or evidence which shows a weakness or a failure. Of course in this way we never have a failure. Loyalty and blind approval is prized while objectivity and honesty are strongly disapproved. Whoever stays “positive”, and confirms everything is “in”, and is often elevated, while those who speak their genuine concern are regarded as “negative”, and “undermining” and soon privately and perhaps publicly condemned. 7. There should be no effort to ORGANIZE or UNIFY the churches. OUR PRACTICE: Constant pressure is applied through trainings, videos, and slogans to push churches and saints to conform. Elders are belittled, as being “old”, “ambitious”, “big-speakers”, and “undermining”, if they do not bring their churches into conformity. LIFE LESSONS & TRUTH LESSONS are promoted as the only way to properly express the truth and help new believers. (These are some of the aspects that caused me to leave the denomination years ago.) 8. Do not get involved in “HOW TO”, or in the promoting of ways. The natural always wants to know “how to.” This will only produce behavior and outward form. It is not the way of life. Life will issue from the abiding and this will produce organic fruit. OUR PRACTICE: In recent months, messages and books are flooding us with “THE WAY TO…” There is a “way” and a “how to” given for whatever we do or say. The saints are learning now only how to behave but are put in the realm of policing others, especially the elders, so all freedom is lost. 9. The Lord’s GOAL IS THE CHURCH. Whatever we do must be for the building up of the church. The ministry exists not to build up itself but the local churches. “If God’s people could only see that the object of all ministry is the founding of local churches and not the grouping of Christians around any particular individual, truth, or experience or under any particular organization, then the forming of sects could be avoided. We who serve the Lord must be willing to let go our hold upon all those to whom we have ministered, and let the fruits of our ministry pass into local churches governed entirely by local men.” The Normal Christian Church Life by W. Nee, p 91. OUR PRACTICE: There is very little time or energy for building up the local church. Time, money, and resources are constantly exhausted in order to defend, protect, supply, build up, and “meet the need” of the ministry by “serving the ministry in the ministry’s way.” Videos, conferences, trainings, and standing book orders have all become necessary to “keep current with the ministry.” 10. We MEET in the name of the Lord. All the saints have the freedom to share as the Spirit gives them utterance. OUR PRACTICE: Everyone is measured by whether they speak “the ministry.” Truth Lessons, Life studies, and foot-notes are proper ways to speak or express anything. The safest way is just to read with little or no comment. Surely this is CONTROL, and must offend the headship of the One in whose name we meet. In The Normal Christian Church Life, p. 92-93 Bro. Nee warns: “Whenever a special leader, or a specific doctrine, or some experience, or creed, or organization, becomes a center for drawing together the believers of different places, then because the center of such a church federation is other than Christ, it follows that its sphere will be other than local. And whenever the divinely-appointed sphere of locality is displaced by a sphere of human invention, there the divine approval cannot rest. The believers within such a sphere may truly love the Lord, but they have another center apart from Him, and it is only natural that the second center becomes the controlling one. It is contrary to human nature to stress what we have in common with others; we always emphasize what is ours in particular. Christ is the common center of all the churches, but any company of believers that have a leader, a doctrine, an experience, a creed, or an organization as their center of fellowship, will find that that center becomes the center, and it is that center by which they determine who belongs to them and who does not. The center always determines the sphere, and the second center creates a sphere which divides those who attach themselves to it from those who do not.” “Anything that becomes a center to unite believers of different places will create a sphere which includes all believers who attach themselves to that center and excludes all who do not. This dividing line will destroy the God-appointed boundary of locality, and consequently destroy the very nature of the churches of God.” Brothers I beg you, I plead with you, please consider objectively; is this not our case? Is this the reality of the vision that caught us, and is it still clear and pure? Is there a possibility that while we condemn, “poor Christianity”, that we are like Laodicea, saying, “I am rich…and do not know that we are…poor and blind…? May the Lord find room in our hearts to extend His mercy, that we might repent. Perhaps we might be rescued and restored to His blessing.

@@Peanut9527 🤣🤣what do they say: jealousy is disguised compliment/affirmation?

None of you speaking expresses maturity in life, HappyAurora... Better to take your judgemental thoughts captive to Christ, and then try and speak in life... Not the same death that Ruth is speaking in. Amen.

Happy Aurora, you are obviously looking forward to the release of Ruth's new videos, knowing in advance that they are dedicated to the same burden, the theme of revealing the pseudo-Christian deviation in "LR". You are one of the first viewers, make yourself comfortable.

And yet you’re often one of the first to comment. You must really like her videos if you keep coming back!

@@HelenChikina says... "...the pseudo-Christian deviation in "LR"...". Cute... How about you give a clear explanation of just what this "...pseudo-Christian deviation in "LR"..." actually is... Because I am in the "LR"... And have been for some 20+ years... And there is nothing "...pseudo-Christian deviation..." about me. Thanks... I look forward to your non-general explanation. May the Lord save us all out of such loose, generalizations in our speaking. Amen.

​@@aboveandbeyond9844 Are you ready to hear it? Should I make my own separate channel for this? Ruth and the others have said so much about it. If you sincerely want to know, the Lord will reveal it to you, step by step...

None of you speaking expresses maturity in life, HappyAurora... Better to take your judgemental thoughts captive to Christ, and then try and speak in life... Not the same death that Ruth is speaking in. Amen.

@HappyAurora-zi2jc - A main difference between me and a politician is I have NOTHING personally to gain by speaking out... I have no interest in ANYONE being hurt, though addressing these matters is unavoidably painful. I want Christians to be safe, and leaders to be held accountable, and for there to be no abuse of "authority"/power in this group or any group, and no financial gain from the poor by selling "God's up-to-date speaking"... And all lies about members of Christ's Body to stop, and any deceptive wolves disguised as sheep - to be exposed, and for Satan to be defeated in every way. The rape of women is 100% unacceptable and highly damaging to the direct victims but also to the whole society. Victims described Watchman Nee's raping of them, and he admitted it. Why was there not public reproval and public repentance, as with King David? Worse than rape, perhaps, is the worship of a man/men that allows for there to be no accountability for rape, along with the teaching that knowing evil is on the wrong tree, and that speaking out about gross sins is rebellion.

That is just a accusations and it needs to be proven. There are always two sides of the story.You cannot monopolize the truth.Your accusations are a century accusations during the early days of his ministry.Sad to say that you are among who became the victim of dessenting ones during those time in China . Sorry your in a wrong tree and I this is the last time i can be able to see your face at TH-cam your so disturbing and disgusting.

​@@ruthwise2159 Definitely, the commentator above and similar commentators have a stony, unfeeling heart towards injured people, victims of violence. It's a pity that they don't understand what it means to be a victim of sexual abuse from a spiritual leader.

None of you speaking expresses maturity in life, HappyAurora... Better to take your judgmental thoughts captive to Christ, and then try and speak in life... Not the same death that Ruth is speaking in. Amen.

You really should watch children's shows and TV series for now. This is food for adults who distinguish between good and evil, who are insightful, who reflect on the cause-and-effect relationships between the teachings of LR and the lack of a biblical response to inappropriate events taking place in this community, in order to protect gullible people and our children.

@@aboveandbeyond9844 Aurora is essentially saying the same thing you are, only you use more eloquent language to express it.

There you go again: ignoring the truth!

@@Peanut9527 says... "Aurora is essentially saying the same thing you are, only you use more eloquent language to express it." The Lord knows... You, on the other hand, only have years of offended feelings to suffer in... Even toward someone who has nothing to do with the past you are desperately holding to. May the Lord save you out of the shallowness of your current existence, Peanut. Amen.

Very helpful. Thank you. It all resonates, particularly: "...the seat of authority is transferred in the mind of the mystic from the external Word of God to the spiritual consciousness - the “spiritual man” - internal to themselves. Homage of quite an orthodox kind may be verbally rendered to the Scriptures, and yet they may be largely displaced. The spiritual conception of the mystic, who flatters himself that he is indeed a spiritual man, are all important to him. He soars above and beyond the Scripture. Its letter he disdains, even if he does not speak against it." One has to truly disdain MUCH of the written scriptures to arrive at particular interpretations central to this group, such as the interpretation that "good, evil, knowledge and death" are all on the same tree so are all of Satan, and are more serious than sin, etc......

@@HelenChikina praying, dear sister. I so appreciate fellowship with you

According to the the words of Jesus in Matthew 7 and Luke 6, anything built upon sand will eventually collapse.

@@priestlyscribe Methinks *Above and Beyond* doth protest too much.

​​​@@priestlyscribe w/ a sentiment/ premise that LC transcends the legacies of Martin Luther & the British/ Plymouth Brothers & that LC uplifts & culminates God's & the former leaders' mantle of Recovery, it's understandable to adopt condescending attitudes towards even founding fathers like Martin Luther; hence, 'I'm sorry but u must be <bogged down> by ur work that u didn't attend meetings' for whatever reasons, since God wouldn't help u in what u do & how could/ dare u find or appreciate God in any new perspectives thru what u do in life apart from attending church meetings since ur a subpar product doing some bad outside the church life in a world of cultures of undue influences & damages?!! Sorry to say but this kind of speaking carries a hint of curse that's ludicrous & vain if they're unaware of how it maligns God's character of true & pure & powerful love by insinuating doubts in u, to say the least, if ur inexperienced in setting boundaries. Can God be pigeonholed by any religion, let alone some church meetings?? Also, you gotta preach the gospel, by literally 'preaching', in their way as it's proven true & the highest to be spread to the ends of the world since any other 'natural' ways are less favorable or disapproved. And the reason for preaching the gospel is NOT to primarily & ultimately LOVE the persons that come into ur life by bringing down God's love to ppl w/ righteousness, BUT to spread the gospel of the LR for God, or to recruit ppl to meetings for God, or to make known that ur a good christian w/ a good business name as a testimony for God, or to be obsessed w/ a set of ideologies demanding validation & admiration for God. And What a sacrifice to put away ur adversarial nature / deny the self to serve God since u'd enjoy being evil if not for Gods sake! And u just need to turn to the Lord by calling on His name 3+~all the time, as we don't give any genuine advice, in fear of backlash & blowback, so we can't support u outside the church, but we're in the splendid church life being knitted together by love to grow into the fullest stature of God😍🤩. Is it really for God? I thought the baseline is not to be duplicitous & hypocritic😅😅... Some rebut by: we just like u (& ur 🤑) to come to the meetings, w/ innocent & warm smiles, but by gimmicks & manipulation of guilt tripping & shaming... Those who r intelligent & aware of what u are doing, the curses u deliver have made a u-turn to u, esp, if underprivileged & afflicted ppl cry out to God like those in Exodus 22:22-27, or do u believe in God in ur hrt anyways, or just like to use the popular quote of Psalm 73:17 to assess ppl according to church attendance even if they testify to Proverbs 6:16-19?? Another popular quote is Romans 520, how abt its variants, such as sins true nature get drawn out & made evident when nurtured in Grace, or Grace overcomes sin instead of 'covering' sins but u like to expose & judge ppl's mistakes?? Wondering why u don't get remaining fruits or u always get backsliders?

@@Love_Cruelty I wish you’d also provide 100+ “theses”… your points here address really important matters

@@aboveandbeyond9844 I speak out for the same reason sincere believers still read the Bible. Because we should apply it and faithfully do what Gods commands, and there is stumbling when leaders in a church community are NOT practicing God’s Word and when particular prominent teachings of theirs cause congregants to fear discerning right from wrong or from exposing evil because of threats that they will then be Ham and be cursed… I speak out because we SHOULD hold forth the word of life lest we run or labor in vain.

Thank you for sharing. So refreshing. God's Word is so precious. "See to it that you complete the ministry you have received in the Lord," Brother!

The apostle Paul was most certainly a MOTA... But not the MOTA... This is where the Living Stream Ministry has gone a bit off course... A minister, versus the minister. And this claim of being "...a MOTA..." is absolutely supported by Paul's own speaking in every epistle he wrote... Including his epistle to the Colossians, at the very beginning of which he declares, "...Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God,...". That's about as clear a MOTA claim as an MOTA claim gets. Regarding Archippus and what Paul said regarding him... I have never heard nor come across any speaking in WL's ministry that says other members of the Body (the church) don't have a ministry... But what I have read in biblical scripture is the apostle Paul telling Timothy, "...And the things which you have heard from me through many witnesses, these commit to faithful men, who will be competent to teach others also."... And. "...Hold a pattern of the healthy words that you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus." So do you think that the apostle Paul would not have the same thought toward Archippus and his ministry? Was Paul double-minded... Telling one person one thing and another person another thing? Perhaps, before you run off trying to cherry-pick scripture to serve your own purpose... You ask the Lord to reveal to you the truth that is actually revealed in scripture, Priestlyscribe. And ultimately... Didn't the apostle Paul instruct us all to have the mind of Christ? Isn't Christ Jesus just one person?... If so... Would that not make any holding to Him have the same ministry... Seeing that it would be just one ministry coming out of the Lord's one mind? May the Lord save us out of our poor understanding of His one word. Amen.

@ I agree with you that the article “the” versus “a” makes a big difference. A minister of Christ is very different than claiming to BE or to FOLLOW “the minister of the age”. Witness Lee and Watchman Nee are not the Christ. Nor are they the Apostle Paul. (Nor are they Moses.) To treat them with the same level of ministry as Christ or even if Paul- who did say it was given to him to complete the word of God - IS a main problem. We ALL have the mind of Christ. We ALL have the Spirit of Reality… Watchman Nee and Witness Lee do NOT have a special, higher position in the Body - nor do “blended brothers”… To say this does NOT make me Miriam because they are not Moses and I am a member of Christ’s Body and the Word of God is now completed and those words abide in me and in you… Watchman Nee read many expositors’ work, spoke largely based on those believers’ books/ministry, and then called himself God’s authority, and is, along with Witness Lee, called by their followers THE Minister of the Age, God’s deputy authority among Christians, God’s oracle… and they spoke against (called degraded, sinful, divisive, harlots…) the same believers from whose ministries they saw much/most of what they then spoke… THAT is degradation.

​@@ruthwise2159 says... "I agree with you that the article “the” versus “a” makes a big difference. A minister of Christ is very different than claiming to BE or to FOLLOW “the minister of the age”." It was just some weeks ago that I was before the Lord regarding "...the minister...", asking how, if WL was "...the minister...", what would that make me when I enter into the ministry that I believe God is bringing me into... He answered me in a very clear manner, saying that WL is "...a..." minister of the age... This became more clear as I considered Oswald Chambers and his ministry, which I have long considered to be an antecedent to Watchman Nee's and Witness Lee's ministry. You continued... "Witness Lee and Watchman Nee are not the Christ. Nor are they the Apostle Paul. (Nor are they Moses.) To treat them with the same level of ministry as Christ or even if Paul- who did say it was given to him to complete the word of God - IS a main problem." Well... Every born-again believer is "...the Christ...", in the context of our living Christ Jesus. The apostle Paul said, "...For to me, to live is Christ ...". And no... Neither WN or WL are the apostle Paul or Moses... But then, the apostle Paul nor Mose is WN nor WL... So what's your point... Are you trying to say that neither WN nor WL holds the position of the apostle Paul or Moses and that because they don't, their ministries are not as important? Are you saying that a "...jot..." is not as important as a word? According to biblical scripture, "...Among those born of women there has not arisen one greater than John the Baptist, yet he who is least in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he." So John the Baptist is greater than Moses, and the least in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than John the Baptist... Which by extension means that the "...least in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than..." Moses. Now surely neither WN nor WL are greater than Paul... And yet, Paul said that he was "...less than the least of all saints..."... In the context of possessing Christ Jesus, WN, and WL were the same as the apostle Paul, just as all born-again believers are... But in the context of gifts... The apostle Paul had a greater measure of gifts. In my twenty-plus years of reading WL's ministry, I have never seen him compare himself to the apostle Paul, Moses, or Christ... And in the twenty-five years of reading Watchman Nee, I have never seen him compare himself to the apostle Paul, Moses, or Christ. What you are doing is making a dishonest strawman... Here's why I can say this, Ruth... The president of Trinidad and Tobago is not equivalent to the president of the United States... And yet they are both presidents of their respective nations... Meaning, it is not impossible for the apostle Paul to be a MOTA... And Witness Lee to be a MOTA... If both their ministries are of God... WL does not have to be equivalent to Paul in order to be a MOTA... His ministry just needs to be of God. You continued... "We ALL have the mind of Christ. We ALL have the Spirit of Reality… Watchman Nee and Witness Lee do NOT have a special, higher position in the Body - nor do “blended brothers”...". Well, actually... This is NOT for you to say, it is only for God to say... As He alone measures out gifts to men. Although we all who have been born again of God have the Spirit of reality, when it comes to the mind of Christ, this requires a putting on by us... And not all believers give themselves to taking this way for themselves. Watchman Nee and Witness Lee most certainly have a higher calling (not "position", as the position of every born-again believer is positioned in Christ Jesus) than many other born-again of God believers... And their ministry is proof of this. But I fully understand your need to try and say otherwise. You continued... "To say this does NOT make me Miriam because they are not Moses and I am a member of Christ’s Body and the Word of God is now completed and those words abide in me and in you…". Miriam's speaking was out of place... She did not have the grace from God to speak as she did... And God's judgment was according to His Old Testament covenant... We are in God's New Testament covenant... Yet, this doesn't mean that we cannot speak out of place... And some may think that your speaking in these videos are you speaking out of place... But, for me, the fact that God has allowed you to speak on these videos tells me that your videos are serving a purpose... Albeit, not necessarily the purpose you think your videos are for. When you stand before God, He will let you know if you're a "...Miriam..."... For me, you're just one more person in desperate need of God's full salvation. You continued... "Watchman Nee read many expositors’ work, spoke largely based on those believers’ books/ministry, and then called himself God’s authority, and is, along with Witness Lee, called by their followers THE Minister of the Age, God’s deputy authority among Christians, God’s oracle… and they spoke against (called degraded, sinful, divisive, harlots…) the same believers from whose ministries they saw much/most of what they then spoke… THAT is degradation." The very first ministry book that God put in my hand was "...Whom Shall I Send..." by Watchman Nee... The second was "...The Centrality of The Cross..." by Jessie Penn Lewis... The third was "...My Utmost For His Highest...", by Oswald Chambers... All within the first few weeks of beginning my conscious walk with the Lord... And I didn't care who Nee, Penn Lewis, or Chambers had based their writing on... For me, all the books that I received were given to me by God, and that's all I needed to know. God could have placed a donkey in front of me and had that donkey speak the apostle Paul's many epistles to me... I would not have cared that the donkey was speaking the apostle Paul's ministry as if it were his own ministry... All that mattered to me was that I knew that God had placed the donkey in front of me and had given it words to speak to me. All I care about is that God is the source of what I receive... I have absolutely no interest in whose ministry came before another's ministry... It means nothing to me... And, before the Lord, it should mean nothing to you either. And yet it does... Only because it serves your purpose to make it a point of contention... Which is actually indicative of, and exposes, degradation within your own being. Seeing Jesus is the only seeing I desire to have... And in seeing Jesus... I am absolutely clear that contention that finds its source in and out of our natural man is not of God and can only bring division, which God hates. May the Lord save us out of the distractions of our self. Amen.

@@aboveandbeyond9844 I don't have the energy to read everything you wrote here tonight, but want to respond to the beginning of your reply. I purposely included the word "the" in front of Christ. Yes, we are members of Christ's Body, to live is Christ, and Christ is all and in all, etc. However, none of us are "the Christ." None of us are God's Messiah. I was reading your comment above from my phone, while with my son... I should have read it more carefully. I think I misunderstood your argument, now that I am re-reading it. I was responding to the idea that people who confront "The MOTA" about legitimate concerns are likened to Moses - but Moses was in another dispensation, in which God used a mouthpiece to give people His laws, etc. People in TLR who say that WLee or WNee are not THE minister (or what I previously wrote: that Watchman Nee and Witness Lee do NOT have a special, higher position in the Body - nor do “blended brothers”) for speaking such things, people are likened by leaders to Miriam, and are diagnosed in this group as having spiritual leprosy. …Miriam's plight due to her criticizing Moses should not be used as a warning that suppresses the thorough fellowship among ALL members of the Body. In that context, I was saying WN and WL are not Moses. Yes, Paul was a pattern, but to liken oneSELF and one's ministry to the Apostle Paul or any of the writers of the New Testament and their ministry seems highminded, in that they had a particular dispensational function to write what was canonized as the Bible... to which we don't add anything... We should be limited by what is in God's Word, but not limited by what WNee or WLee said/taught. There is a difference..... I hope I make sense. Anyway, very tired, so I'm going to rest now.

@@ally2000 I am not against “The Lord’s Recovery”. I am against sin being undealt with, abuse, exalting of some, mocking and mistreatment of others, stumbling of little ones/believers, elitism, and any other unscriptural practices…. I am all for the Lord recovering anything lost. But not obeying God’s word is NOT being “the Lord’s Recovery.”

@@ally2000Typically whistleblowers are more for the original mission of an organization/institution than those who stay silent. Silence does not help those we love if reproval and repentance and reconciliation are needed in order to be keeping God’s Word. Heralds of righteousness aren’t against people, but rather against unrighteousness. We are not against one another as believers. We all should be against God’s (our) unique enemy, against the injustice and unrighteousness and chaos and destruction for which Satan is responsible.

Sorry to reply AGAIN! Just thinking a lot about your qurestion. If a family member tells the family that some patterns of behavior are really hurting them, would one ask, "So what is your point against our family?" No - a proper, healthy family listens and makes adjustments, repenting for wrongdoing, etc. If a toe has pain, based on certain practices of the Body that could (should) be altered, does anyone think, "So, what is the toe's point against other members in this Body?" No - the pain indicates a need for modification and a healthy body modifies accordingly, for the benefit of the whole Body. Ignoring pain is foolish - proper response is prudent.

@@ruthwise2159... Unless the toe is gangrene... Then you simply need to cut it off. Amen.