GSF600 - Air/Fuel Mixture Tuning Ride-Along
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 มี.ค. 2019
- Adjusting the fuel/air mixture screws on the 2001 Bandit 600 to try to get this thing running again. After 15 months of pure frustration, I'm starting to actually see some life!
In this video I tried 3 / 2.5 / 2 / 1.5 turns on the mix screw. 3 and 2.5 were nearly unusable; however, 2 and 1.5 are promising. I think the ideal is the stock setting of 1.75. That will not get this bike fully dialed in though. It's still got a massive sluggishness that I think will need to be addressed via a jet needle circlip adjustment.
But we are getting there. - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
It really sucks that there are so many people that dont have a clue what they are doing posting fix it vids online. i would love to find videos that actually help without all this bullshit clutter.
Lmao. Go make one yourself bud. There's no magic bullet to tuning and it's hours and hours of tinkering. Start getting after it.
I have the exact bike with exact problems. Thanks for putting this up! Maybe I’ll give another try at making the bike go this season.
Definitely give it another go. I'd suggest throwing in a new air filter (I used a hiflofiltro for
Hey Matt, thanks for talking me on your bandit journey! It looks like you might make my day tomorrow, because I have the same error pattern on my bandit and ignorred completely that it could have to do with the A/F mixture setting. It is very interesting and informative to so see how you define and try to solve your variables on your bike. I'm until a couple of week(end)s on a pretty similar journey with my bandit, I got from my best friend ;-) Greetings from Germany!
Thanks for the kind words Oliver! Obviously it's way easier to adjust the screws when the bike is on the bench; however, with an appropriate little (short) standard screwdriver, you can do it while it's on the bike. It's kind of tricky to get in there--wear gloves so you don't burn your hands! Cylinder 2 is the trickiest because of the alternator. Good luck!
Hi Alan here from England I have the same problem You can do the needles with the tank off i have done mine .But still have a slow pull away misfire hesitation I am sure It is Mixture set up I have a 1200 I will get there in the end. All the best. PS I have sync the carbs they are spot on.
Hey there Alan, thanks for the comment. I'm curious how my bike would respond to a single shim under the needles. It's running pretty well at 2 turns out on the A/F screws, but it's not the absolute snappiest. I should get some shims and do a re-sync since I adjusted the valves. I bet there's some more performance to be had! Take care.
Hey Matt, I keep finding your Bandit 650 journey's while I'm looking at drones and such. I'll just share a little more of my Bandit history as well. After purchasing a new "Motion Pro" Carb balancer,multiple carb pullings and rebuilds, I also discovered vacuum leaks with a couple rubber plugs being dry rotted! I also couldn't seem to get straight answers from anybody concerning the air fuel mixture screws(I have all the repair manuals and DVDs as well)? Seemed like just a lot of personal opinion/trial and error type feedback. I also thought I'd share the fact that I also changed out the stock engine cover and carb screws with the stainless type socket screws. I do this because I've learned that chances are I will have to remove the carbs a "kazillion" times and these types of changes just make it easier to work on things. Some mods I've include things like mirrored engine side cover's both sides(these came from Europe),power bronze chin fairing,tank bra,LED flush mount turn signals,bar risers,alarm/grips/cruise control,dual USB/volt meter,and accessory bar. I've done alot to this bike. Lol Scott in the D.
I picked up an EMGO carburetor synchronizer, and it worked pretty well for around $70. Luckily, that's one of the easier things to do on this bike because of how accessible the vacuum nipples are on the carburetors. Good call on the rubber plugs... I should have just replaced anything rubber that could have been affecting the air flow right away. I've since replaced all the vacuum nipple plugs, intake boots, and vacuum lines.
Mirrored engine side cover sounds sweet. I love chin fairings as well--didn't realize anybody made one for this bike. Sounds like you've done quite a bit to make it look badass and unique! Was just looking at potentially putting some bar risers on my V Strom. I gotta stop buying shit until I get my kart sold... hah.
Appreciate you sharing the details on your machine. I mentioned before, but it's just comforting to know that trial, error, frustration, and redemption are all parts of figuring out how to get these bikes dailed in.
When you put bar risers on what cables did you have to change?? I want to put a 1 inch up and inch back on my Bandit. I know brake hose will be needed. Thanks
Ao was the bike not running or starting and then you adjusted the air and fuel screws and it started again? I have a gs500 and i think i am having the same problem now. I have cleaned the carbs 3 times now. But i have not messed with the air fule screws yet. Bike will not start. any help would be great. thanks
Make sure you have a really strong charge on the battery, that's just as important as anything else. This bike seems super sensitive to old gas as well. If you're in the US, your A/F screws may be hidden behind 4 welch plugs that need to be drilled out. If you're lucky, they're already removed. The A/F screws are behind there. Stock setting is 1 7/8, most people think this was intentionally set too lean from factory for emissions reasons, and pull them out to ~2 or so depending on other modifications.
I don't think the A/F screws would be the sole reason you can't get it to start; however, I think they'd influence how the bike runs with any throttle pretty substantially. I wish I had more concrete advice to give you, but I just don't know enough about your scenario.
Hey, is the bandit running good by now? Any updates what else was done to the carb?
I have been working at it, but haven't updated yet. I just installed block-off plates and removed the PAIR system this weekend. The bike is a lot better--took it for a short spin yesterday around the block. Will try the first freeway test this week.
The remaining issue I have is that it's taking an abnormal amount of time to come up to operating temp. Like, 12 minutes of idling. I believe this suggests it's rich. If I give it throttle before it's hot, it'll die. However, if I restrict the air filter with my hand with the seat off, it'll rev fine. Once it's hot though, it's running like a top. So I'm a bit confused on if I need to lean or richen the pilot circuit. Unfortunately I can't do anything about needle depth besides shims (the needles are not clip type, so I can't lean it, only richen)
The plan is to take the bike on a 1200 mile road trip at the end of the month. I'm feeling pretty confident it'll be ready. I just wish I could figure out why it's taking so long to warm up.
Does PAIR system affect the mixture some how? Because I'm figuring out some carb mixture problems myself at the moment on gsf650 and leaving the pair hoses unpluged all the time I test the carbs (except the vacuum of course).
@@juliusbarancejevas259 it shouldn't. However, I wanted to remove it as a variable. Because you can't tell if the pair Reed valve has failed in the open position, I could see it causing headaches. I still don't think it'd affect much though.
That being said, my bigger reason for wanting to remove it is all those extra hoses and horseshit to cheat emissions completely blocks access to spark plug #3. You have to pull the whole assembly out of the way to get to it. Now, it's the easiest plug to access.
The pair is supposed to only open under certain conditions. I believe usually on deceleration which is why people talk about a "popping" of unburnt exhaust, and it goes away when you delete the pair. I was never experiencing that. It *will* affect the exhaust valve temperature by removing some cooling it previously had. But the pair shouldn't be open on idle anyway. But if it failed open, then the exhaust would take longer to heat up even on idle. Which is why I wanted to get rid of the variable.
After finding that much oil in the air box previously, surely you should replace the air filter. And pull out the spark plugs while you're at it and check them out too since the engine was flooded with 8 liters of fuel.
Another thing you could try in order to achieve a better air/fuel mixure, is tamper with the height setting of each slide needle. Easliy done as the carbs can remain on the bike, just unscrew and remove all 4 black plasric caps, pull out the slider needle from each one and you'll see a metal clip on it's top.
th-cam.com/video/aL96csDaPUk/w-d-xo.html
Just got a new air filter in the mail today, so I'll install that tomorrow. You're right--I should have done that right away. I was just trying to get it running though and thought that might be a corner I could skip. I learned that lesson.
In regards to the jet needle... I actually tried what you said. And you can pull carb 2 and 3 off easy without having to remove the carb assembly (just pull the tank). HOWEVER, the jet needles that are in this carburetor are unfortunately no the clip type of needle like I was hoping. They are fixed length, and they are the type that you can richen with shims or washers. I can't verify that that is stock, but that's what is in there now. I also can't verify that you can remove carb 1 and 4 without loosening the carb rack from the intake boots and air filter. 2-3 are easy. 1 and 4 I bet you *could* do, but I'm not sure that you'd want to.
I think you're on the right path with adjusting the jet needle, but I'm going to see how much things change with the new air filter. If the stars are shining on me, then things will work out just fine w/o the needle adjustment.
Ohhh--and totally yes on the spark plugs. I had to pull them to get it to run right. They were completely fouled (despite being new). 1,2, and 4 were super easy. 3 is hidden under all that PAIR valve emissions horseshit and was a mess to pull.
Thanks for the input and watching my videos. Hopefully we get this bad boy running right soon.
It's not oil in air box its petrol from blow back.or petrol tap vacuum is bolloxed
More than likely im late in suggesting this but you did balance/sync the carbs first? not seen other videos sorry just didnt see you do that in this video.
No problems with being late on a suggestion (you're not!). Often times it's the simple things that get overlooked and cause the biggest headaches.
Yes, I have balanced these carbs with a dedicated set of vacuum gauges. However, I was unable to do it until I was able to get a steady idle--I couldn't do it while I was chasing a vacuum leak since it had an unstable idle.
The bike is running pretty damn well now, but maybe I should shoot a quick video of the carburetor synchronization and also double check that I didn't bump the sync screws at all when Ive been handling the rack.
Did you look at the main pliot jet? They are over seen and vibrate out. It causes issues with low rpm
Oh, I've looked at all the jets. Haven't had any issues with any of them backing out yet that I can tell. The Air/Fuel mixture screws have stayed steady as well--I know those can be a problem for backing out if they're run on the loose side (3+ turns out) due to less tension being applied by the springs.
A big help to the throttle response was actually shimming the needles a bit which can be done without removing the carburetor rack from the bike.
Great video ! Question. I have 2005 Suzuki katana 750 and when I blip throttle it dies. I did rebuilt carburetor a week ago, but I somewhat unsure how many turns I did on my mixture screws. Something tells me 3.5 turns out. My bike dies become it’s too lean ? How many turns you think I should do 2 or 1.5? Thank you so much
I'm not certain on what stock settings are for the Katana 750, but a 2002 Bandit 600 is 1&7/8 turns, and Bandit 1200 is 3 turns out. It's possible that you're way too far out, and bringing it to 2 turns out may bring it back to life. The further out you go, the richer the mixture. So, in my guess, you're likely too rich.
The other thing to check is that you remembered to cap off any vacuum ports that shouldn't be open. And that the carburetor is snuggly tightened into the intake boots to avoid any air leaks. But my first guess is that coming down to 2 turns out as opposed to 3.5 will show a big change.
Also, the stock 1&7/8 on the bandit was likely set intentionally lean by Suzuki to perform better in emissions. 2 seems better to me. If you have a freer flowing exhaust or have bumped your jet sizing up, it may also affect where you need to set the mixture screws. Not a ton--like the difference between it dying with any gas--but marginally.
Matt Tries to Do Things Yeah I’ll try to adjust them to 2. It’s just a pain to get to them. I will have to take the carb off of bike. Already ordered new air filter ( the one you recommended ). The bike I picked up has only 3900 miles, I paid 1000$ and it’s super clean inside and out. It has been neglected over the years though. But always been kept in garage.
Matt Tries to Do Things As I said I rebuilt carburetor. Ordered new fuel filter, new petcock, air filter. Will put them all together soon and man love the valve clearance video def gonna do it this Friday. Thank you for great content !
@@madmaksymtv2822 they are tough to get to. Might be even harder on your bike, not sure. But I eventually learned I could get to them with a short flathead screwdriver. I'd also used flathead bits in the past as well. I'd Google it to see if it's possible to reach them on your bike before having to take the carb rack off again. Not that once is too bad, but once you do it 5 times or more, it starts to get old. I lived that for sure, hah.
Congrats on the bike though. You'll get her going right! Katana was damn near my first bike ever. Ended up going 1984 interceptor 500, but I walked into the store wanting the Katana. Something about them is just sweet.
I feel your pain! Did you get the correct settings in the end?
Ohhhhh I'm close! New air filter has me almost there at stock settings. The issue I'm having is that it takes me way too long to come up to temperature. However, once it's there, the bike screams. Takes like 10 minutes at idle in 35°F weather. Unfortunately, it was snowing this passed weekend when I wanted to test it with a load on the engine. Hopefully I'll have a chance with some better weather this weekend.
I believe I'm potentially rich on the pilot circuit and lean on the jet needle. Unfortunately, the needles for this carburetor aren't circlip--they're shimmed, so you can only richen the mixture. That's just a hunch though, I really need to ride it once it's warm. If all goes well I'll shoot a video where I can actually get it up to speed and explain everything that went into this mess! Thanks for the comment.
@@matttriestodothings Thanks it'll be interesting to see what finally fixed it and know what your settings are carb side. Good luck and good work with the uploads.
I’m new to Your videos, and have same bike, and it takes about 10 minutes to warm mine up to where I can take choke off. Is this normal??
going though the same exact dilemma with my bandit :(((( what was the problem/solution?
If I've got one suggestion it is to start with a known clean air filter.
On my bandit 600 I have a problem where smoke is coming out of exhaust and spark plugs are always black because of too much fuel. Is that because of the A/F screw? I actually balanced carbs (sync).
Is the smoke white, black, or blue(ish)? And does it only happen while the bike is warming up, or does it continue even when the bike is at operating temperature? Lastly, does it seem to be running well? I get some white smoke while running choke bringing the bike up to operating temperature still. It goes away after I get off the choke.
There's probably three things I'd be checking out.
1. are you leaving the choke on (or are they getting stuck and not fully retracting) causing an excess of fuel
2. where are the air/fuel mixture screws at? If they're way out like over 3.0 turns, it would definitely be a richer mixture (assuming stock type air filter and exhaust). However, my bike ran like shit if I was at 3 turns out.
3. what condition is the air filter in? If it's really dirty, it'll be restricting a lot of air flow, and you may be getting a richer mixture at low RPMs
@@matttriestodothings Smoke is white. Interesting is that, when I turn my bandit on, there is no smoke. After 30 seconds it starts to appear and then after 1 minute it's definitely there. And it stays like that until the bike gets turned off and cooled down. Bike goes well. Gas is working just fine, but sometimes one of the spark plugs stops working because of too much fuel. Spark plugs are new btw. Choke is also working perfect. And about the screws, right now they are at 2.5, but the thing is, when I put them on 3 or 3.5, nothing changes. It still receives more fuel than it should (I know it because I can hear explosions from the exhaust and spark plugs are literally black). Air filter is perfectly clean.
@@matttriestodothings Maybe I confused it, but less turns on screws means more air or less air? Every carburetor I saw through my life was: more turns on screws = more air
@@mistertvister241 It actually depends on the design of the carburetor. It's not a hard-fast rule; however, I think that generally slide-type carburetors are going to be turn in, more fuel. These Keihin constant-velocity carburetors on the Bandit, however, are turn in = more air. That's because you're pushing a needle into an orifice. When you push that needle all the way into the orifice, fuel cannot escape. So, 0 turns in would be no fuel, 1 turn out would be a little fuel, and 2 turns out would be close to stock fuel.
The stock setting on the 2002 GSF600 is 1+7/8 turns. Most people bump this to 2.0 turns because it was set lean from the factory for emissions. Sometimes you'll need to bump further if you're increasing jet sizes or modifying the exhaust/intake.
@@matttriestodothings Oh I see. Well, that actually might be the problem :) I tought those screws are controlling air flow, not the fuel flow. I'll try it tomorrow and see how it goes. Thanks a lot man!
There is an extended screwdriver that is really useful for adjusting the pilot jets. I have one of them. It costed me about 20 USD over here (brazil)
produto.mercadolivre.com.br/MLB-1394229741-chave-pra-regular-carburador-de-motos-_JM That's it
Ah, gotcha. I've actually got one of those 90° gear-drive screwdrivers for balancing the carburetors on another bike. I think the best thing would be a proper, tiny (short) but stubby handled screwdriver for the fine tune. Those 90° screwdrivers are kind of a pain in the ass to use. At least the Motion Pro one I overpaid for is.
@@matttriestodothings I still haven't used mine... I hope it's as useful as I think it is! Lol.
I felt that moment at 10:43 😂😂.
But a quick question did you get her running right?
Yep--I eventually got it running pretty well. Ultimately I think it came down to making sure the tank was rust free, good spark plugs, new air filter, 2 shims under the carb needles, and 2 turns out on the air/fuel mixture screws.
Thanks.
My bike did that noise like yours do . I have a gsf600s and it died on me while running it .. when I was reving the bike it stalled once I came to slow down and take a right at 20mph it just stalled and had to push it for fking too long ... i need to sort those i hope ill sort it 😑😪
I hope you get it sorted man. For whatever reason, these carburetors just seem to be more finicky than any others I've encountered. It's strange that it died while running though--my experience has been that they're a bitch to get dialed in, but once they're set, they're good. Dying while running sounds like something changed and caused an issue.
Anyway sorry on the late reply. Hope you were able to get it sorted out and back on the road.
My gsf 600 runs fine but sometimes at idle it will slowly die and the engine stops , not always but sometime . this happens even when i have the slow running set at the correct idle speed when warm . anyone know why that is?
Generally mine runs better the hotter it is. If I had to take a guess, that might be related to the connections on your ignition coils. As heat increases, resistance does as well.
This is something I've been meaning to look into on mine as well. I don't have a great guess as to what's causing your specific issues, but that's my first thought.
Thanks will check that
Pull a plug out to see if it's rich or lean? Also one of the first things to check is valve gaps; they close over time and eventually you have a non-runner.
The valves were adjusted prior to this.
Generally I'd see plugs looking rich. I always found it difficult to get meaningful looking plug data from this because I couldn't bring it up to full song to actually get a good plug reading.
I ended up getting it sorted though. Sold it to a buddy about a year ago, and I know it just came back to life after winter hibernation without much fuss.
Have you checked the TP Sensor position?
Are you spying on me? Did you happen to know that I just received a new multimeter yesterday because the TPS is the same on both the SV650 and Bandit, and I only just realized how to calibrate it after struggling to comprehend the procedure for about a week?
So, to answer your question... not yet. However, today or tomorrow, hah. I have heard they really don't do much for the SV. Not certain about the Bandit.
@@matttriestodothings LOL. The bandits are really sensitive when it comes to timing...
I have the service manual of many models of bandit and there is always a detailed procedure of how to adjust/set the TP sensor. I found your problem to be alike a video of a guy from brazil that had a problem with his TP sensor (first it was dead and then he installed a new one without proper tuning it). If it helps, I can send you a link for you to download the service manuals
@@tuntatis Thanks man. I've got a PDF of the service manual downloaded, but I appreciate it.
I didn't write down the numbers I had on the Bandit, but from memory I had 5.0(1-2)kOhm resistance and the stationary reading. And then closed throttle was 0 resistance, WOT was 4.4kOhm. I believe I need to have 78% of the stationary resistance when I am at full throttle which would be 5.02*0.78 = 3.92kOhm. Honestly I stared at the device for about 2 hours before I even realized *how* you adjust it--the is, loosening the two bolts and making slight positioning changes to the unit and retightening the bolts.
Does that explanation make sense? Am I understanding the procedure correctly?
Hi I had to remove mine, did mark the position. Thanks for info I will check my bandit also and give feedback.
what is the volt setting do you think you can e-mail me thanks
wkbauer.bauer88@gmail.com
I have adjusted mine bike is now running perfect, just some feedback from me.
you might have a slightly bent valve or two. I've heard that bandits can bend valves if you speed up and decelerate with the engine (drop the throttle) too fast.
I haven't heard that one before. I'll have to do some internet-searchin'. It ultimately got sorted, but I'm curious what would cause that.
That's physically impossible unless your timing chain takes a dump.
2 was perfect... you have to do it on all carbs..i saw you doing only one...
Yes, you have to do all 4 at once. Maybe I could have made that more evident. I did mention you have to "do these" from both sides, and I figured nobody wanted to watch me fiddle for all 4--especially because it doesn't flim well on if the rack is on the bike.
Clean the carbs, pressure test the delivery system, check for vacuum leaks, adjust fuel levels and put new pilots in there.This isn't an air/fuel mixture screw problem.
The air/fuel mix screw settings contributed to the running issues, but they weren't the sole cause of the problems. The other items you mentioned had been done besides pressure testing delivery system--this one is gravity feed.