As a violinist who also plays the piano, it surprises me when pianists complain about their 4th finger, when for us violinists our 5th is often the weakest one (even when I play the piano).
I don't play the violin myself, but I could imagine it may have to do with the shape of the wrist as well. At the piano you can use your wrist as a pivot point and transfer (rotational) movement of the entire hand through your fifth finger into the keys. If I'm not mistaken, the fact that you hold the violin by the neck with your hand means more of the energy has to come from the finger itself and less weight can be transferred through the wrist. I'd be interested to hear what you think about this though, I'm just guessing.
That's because the gesture is completely different. You have more strength when it comes to push down and hold this pressure with your fourth, this is also true for a pianist. But when you play piano, you're not pressing chords, you're hitting keys and not maintaining this weight down. Once the hammer as hit the chord and the key is down, you can press as hard or as light as you want, it's useless. But when it comes to "hit" and be fast, especially in relations with other fingers, your little finger is more agile and faster.
Perdón por escribir en español, así me puedo expresar mejor, solo espero que el traductor automático haga su trabajo... Supongo que es porque la posición que se usa al tocar el violín permite usar toda la fuerza del dedo 4, por otro lado al tocar piano debido a las aperturas y como tal la postura de la mano el dedo no puede usar su fuerza apropiadamente. Eso es lo que yo creo
@@alkischrysanthopoulos5712 yeah actually that makes sense, when I press my fingers down I use my thumb to counteract the force. Though it doesn't explain why when I play the piano, my 4th finger is still wayyy stronger than my 5th
@@white.gloves3166 well no, my 4th finger is still stronger than my 5th in that regard. From what I can tell, my 4ty is way stronger than my 5th in every situation
All of this is golden, but there are exceptions; I think the rule should not be to use the 4th finger as less as possible, but to know strengths and weaknesses of your hands and learn when it's best not to use it and when it's best to use it. I know there are make up artists who use their 4th finger a lot when they make up because being weaker than the other fingers it's more delicate and more suited for certain things. On the piano I think it's kind of similar, I find the 4th finger well suited when I have to play soft passages or upbeat notes that must not have any accent, while I try to avoid using it when I have to play with full sound and I try to use the 3rd instead or another finger depending on the context. I also think it's best to use the 4th finger sometimes when it allows you to avoid thumb passages that could slow you down or produce a less fluid result. I like to think that every finger has a dynamic range where it's more at ease and it has more control of the sound. I think the 4th finger has the most control (probably more than the thumb or the 3rd finger) in a dynamic range shifted towards the ppp; if you play louder outside of this range you are forcing yourself doing something unnatural and it's almost impossible to have control of the sound. That being said, every hand is different ad everyone should find his rules for fingering. I see this comparing my hand to other people's, and also comparing my right and left hand; there are some movements I can do with one hand that I can't in any way replicate with my other hand, or positions I find myself comfortable with one hand and uncomfortable with the other. So in some cases I would play perfectly symmetrical passages with different fingerings for the right hand and the left hand.
This video has freed me to some degree. I’ve always wanted to play like this, but I felt strapped to convention. Breaking free from convention is okay as long as it done carefully and thoughtfully. I play much better when I have done this in the past and I blamed it on my lack of training. I’m going to think outside of that old box now.
In the "Essay on the True Art of Playing Keyboard Instruments", C. P. E. Bach wrote extensively on fingering. Always worth a read by keyboardist. IIRC Bach advocated the use of 2-3-4, the thumb for turning-through....and rarely the 5th finger. I photocopied his chapters on fingerings and performance practice several decades ago. Note that Bach wrote "The Essay" in the era of the clavichord, harpsichord and the wooden-framed pianoforte. The iron-framed piano didn't come to the fore for almost a hundred years later, but I think his insights are still valid.
I'm practicing a sonata that has many trills. I spent a few weeks doing it with the 4th and 3rd fingers and I actully got a lot better with the 4th, but after I saw this video I switched it to fingers 3 and 5. It took me less time and effort to play it right with this fingering and it actually sounds better. Thanks for the video.
I specifically try to train all 5 of my fingers equally because this enhances my technical ability the most, and neglecting my 4 and 5 just reduces their independence and strength. I have much more control when I play now with all 5 of my fingers. I often specifically train the 3 4 and 5 to correct for their weakness. Any concert pianist will have far stronger 4 and 5 than untrained people so It's clearly possible
@Vinay - Annique’s view is the 4th finger has no independence, being joined by tendons to the 5th. This makes for a more limited range and ability in the 4th. She implies that’s why she avoids using the 4th, whenever reasonably able to do so.
Very interesting take on fingerings ; I also have that bad habit of following mindlessly fingerings when they're written on the sheets, telling myself : "If it's written that way, it must be the most ergonomic way to play it". Turns out it's not always the case.
I find when practising a Bach fugue it is difficult to choose between the 4th or the 3rd in broken chords. You may have resolved the issue for me. Thanks for this new perspective on finger choices.
Just started watching, but I’m really curious what you’re gonna say; this has been my lifelong problem as well: the fourth finger weakness. Hope I’ll improve after your video!
Der vierte Finger ist zu schwach, dafür der Daumen zu schwer usw. Ich stimme Dir zu, dass sich das Fingering harmonisch bzw. organisch und gut anfühlen muss. Die Hand ist ein absolutes Wunder der Natur, hat aber ihre Eigenheiten, die zu beachten sind. Ansonsten droht eine fokale Dystonie, wie bspw. bei Robert Schumann u.a.
We're heirs of puritan culture here in the U. S. and often inclined to think anything harder, more difficult, or painful is automatically the right way. With your encouragement I have already gone through a couple pieces I'm working on and redone the fingering. Feels amazing and already sounds better. Will not be looking back.
Looking forward to a video about the third finger 🤪 All silliness aside, I learn more from Annique than I did my piano teacher. So grateful for your videos!
I just found myself training the 4th finger a lot. I remember when I started learning Beethoven's Für Elise, I deliberately use 4th and 5th fingers to start the piece, to train my weaker fingers. Also, when I studied the Moonlight Sonata 2nd Movement, I use a lot of 1-4 finger octave, to play better legato.
I've been watching your Chopin Etudes. You have such a wonderful fluidity to your playing it's a pleasure to watch. And I credit this to your passion for fingering and your desire to use the fingers that help you play the piece musically, not just in a way that is "technically correct." Thanks for sharing your skill and talent with us, Annique!
I really like your videos. I play jazz. But I prefer to force to use the fouth finger, otherwise I would never use it. One will never develop if they don't use
Interesting take and I agree for most. I still like to use my fourth finger for extremely dense octaves even though its possible with 1-5. It maintains your hand relaxed as you are constantly switching between fourth and fifth finger. Especially on octaves with black keys the fourth finger does actually improve the ability even though you aren't forced to use it.
Your point of avoiding the ring finger to maximize control is interesting. however, i think that your rationale behind it is not correct. you mention that the middle and the ring finger are connected, but this is wrong, since you are showing the supposed connection when trying to extend and lift the fingers up, and not while bending them (actually, there are interconnections between the extensor tendons of all 4 fingers, but this does not matter here). the reason why you have to struggle more when you try to lift the middle and the ring fingers while holding the index and little finger bent, is that both only use one common extensor tendon, meanwhile the index and the pinky each have an additional extensor tendon. actually, from an anatomical point of view, there is one single muscle with 4 tendons extending the index, middle, ring and little finger (it is called the "common extensor muscle), meanwhile the index has a second, distinct extensor muscle (called "extensor of the index"), and so does the pinky ("extensor of the little finger"). this gives the index and the pinky more autonomy for extension on their own. however, this is not what causes the supposed "weakness" of the fourth, as we are talking about extension, meanwhile you use flexion when you play the piano. the true reason is that, usually (there are rare anatomical variances in all these elements), the flexion on the ring finger and the pinky is innervated by a different nerve than the thumb, index and middle finger. however, the number of motor fibres for flexion in this nerve is lower - most of its motor fibers are used for the muscles within the palm which act on all 4 fingers ( the "intrinsics", which give you the ability to spread your fingers, or to press them against each other - you use them for lateral movements, which are also important for piano playing, but that is a different story). this means that, in truth, it is the ring finger AND the little finger who are both weaker than the other two and the thumb, but the shorter, and therefore weaker, pinky can compensate this by applying force in a much different way (like when you play octaves): when you want to enforce the use of the little finger, you often support it with wrist force, applying a little rotation movement of the hand, but you hardly ever need to extend another finger when you apply this force on the little finger. however, if you enforce flexion of the ring finger with wrist force, in most cases you have to actively lift up the pinky so it does not get in the way. this decreases force, but, most importantly, independence when you use the ring finger - the movement becomes more complex, as simultaneous flexing and extending becomes involved. this is precisely what you feel as "lesser control" as to compared with the use of the thumb, index and middle finger. in reality, it is a little bit more complicated than this, because there are even more small muscles involved when it comes to pinky movement - - alas, i tried to simplify a bit in order to keep it understandable..... i thought this might interest you. btw, i greatly enjoy the content on your website!
This is a great inspiration for my final assignment subject, thank you. I think it's extremely interesting and important to understand how the movements in the hand works.
Thanks for this. I'm curious if you're familiar with this idea from an essay titled "Piano Technique- Anatomy of the Hand and its Relevance to a Fluent Finger Technique" (it can be found by googling that title). The idea is basically that you should aim to use the interossei rather than the flexors. It's worth looking up the paper to see the full explanation. I have no knowledge of anatomy but as a pianist i always felt like this was true since reading this essay many years ago, the feeling that when the palm muscles are very active then I have a strong "bridge" and it allows the wrist and arm to be relaxed. Thoughts?
Not everyone would agree on this is. Quite an intriguing video but an "eye opener" to a lot of beginner pianists and it shows also how you are becoming mature with your musicality - efficiency and control, over flashiness and by the book playing.
You don’t mention trills, but after listening to your advice, I’m going to revisit places where I have trills with 4-5 or 3-4, which I find close to impossible to get right. Now I understand why. Many tx for this informative vid!
@@jonaby2123 You could try the Thalburg fingering which is 1-3-2-3, or you could just use 1 and 3. For practicing and playing trills it is better to use a grand piano instead of an upright. This is because upright piano actions do not have a double escapement, so the keys need to return almost all the way up before they can repeat. Grand piano actions have a repeat spring, so their keys only need to rise a small amount before they can repeat.
Very interesting approach! The fourth finger is commonly taught as "the most singing finger" and your example of the Chopin Nocture is a slow and very singing melody. If your example were Chopin's Prelude # 16 (presto con fuoco), that would be an entirely different case of avoiding the 4th finger to increase perlando and speed! Another argument in favor of using the 4th finger MORE often is that it will be better trained for those cases when its use is inevitable!
@@coleptera180 yes, however not by simply playing, but when using a self-constructed training device with a loop that was fixed on his 4th finger and on the ceiling....
In classical guitar we call it the anular, written as just the letter a on scores. I also avoid using it whenever possible, but now I will also avoid using it on piano (which I've been struggling to learn for some time because there are no teachers around me) and see if I actually make any progress.
I'm 1 minute into the video and I just realised a better fingering for the piece I'm learning because I used the 4th finger too much, thanks for keeping me sharp lol
Interesting! For me, the weakest finger is now the 5th, when I started playing, almost 10 y ago, It was really difficult to play with the 4th, but I trained this one a lot until It get so strong as the 1-2-3 fingers. Sometimes isn´t about not using, but using as much as you can!
Another thing she mentions is the amount of energy you need for the fourth finger. Many pianists train it, but isn't this finger still more tiring to use?
It's not the 4th finger by itself that is exhausting but how it is used in conjunction with other fingers. It is important to be aware that the 4th in conjunction with other fingers, can be problematic. The problem can actually be with fingers that are not working. They can get in the way. Recently I've been doing a lot more single hand practice in an effort to better split my brain. The issue is actually in the brain, not the fingers. A good pianist's brain controls the fingers. A non pianist's brain can't.
Im just starting to learn piano, and even though at this point i don't understand the majority of what you're talking about, your channel is still a godsend 🙏
I use my 4th finger in lieu of my 'pinky' all the time especially on the black keys because it's an inch longer than my little finger. I cross my little finger under my 4th when descending from a black key played by the 4th. I've put significant thought into it. You are kind of a 3 finger player, which actually works quite well. I don't object to your fingering at all but in the original fingering there is an F and F# and the F# is played by the little finger which for me is very awkward. It would be better for me to use my 4th finger on the F# and my little finger on the F. It's odd, but it works. Another issue is that males are said to have a 4th finger that is much longer than their little finger while female's finger are much closer to the same length. The message should be to work out a fingering that works for you and not be obligated to the fingering in the score which was for someone else's hand. I look at it. If it's good I use it, if it isn't I look for something else. It's not always easy to find the best fingering straight out from the beginning. What I think is best at the outset, is often not what I end up using.
Your fingerings only work because it's a slow melody though. When playing faster melodies you often don't have a choice but to use the fourth finger. Also in broken chords you can't really get around using the fourth finger.
I'm here because i finally hurt myself for the first time with my obviously poor self taught piano playing technique. My fourth finger has been so sore for almost a week that I can't hardly play (and obviously feel like I shouldn't play). This video has made it clear that I haven't taken the nature of my fourth finger seriously. I'm sad 😭
Your tips always helps me a lot so can you make a video about pathetique sonata 1st movement. There are lots of octaves so my left wrist is always getting tense no matter how much I practise. Also love your content
The thumb is very strong and deffinitely the best finger for loud passages. But in my opinion the fourth finger is more sensitive and sometimes a better choice for slow melodies like in the chopin nocturne you used as an example.
the thumb is not a finger - it is the thumb, which is a completely different story than a finger. for instance, it presses the piano key sideways. this is the reason why, in america, people commonly refer to the index finger as the "first finger", the middle finger as the "second finger", and so on.
@@dragonflycrashed5511 Thats what I mean, the problem with what she says is that instead of the 4th finger she uses much more the thumb and with the thumb its more difficult to controll the sound because the thumb is sideways as you mentioned. A long time ago (before Bach) people used to play without the thumb. But of course the thumb is an extraordinary finger who allows us to play crazy virtuosic stuff.
@@manuelernst397 again: the thumb is not a finger. it is anatomically and functionally completely different from a finger. that is why it is called "thumb", and the other 4 are called "fingers".
@@dragonflycrashed5511 The latin name for thumb is "digitus primus manus" which means something like "the first finger of the hand". It is diffrent from the other fingers but the thumb is still one of the five fingers on a hand if you ask a biologist/doctor.
@@manuelernst397 again, you are completely wrong. the thumb is called "pollex", and all of its tendons have names referring to "pollex". simply translating "first finger" into latin does not make it a correct name. again, the thumb is not a finger. it has a completely different structure and function: it consists of 2 phalanges instead of the fingers` 3, it moves in a plane perpendicular to the fingers, and its joints, particularly at the base of the metacarpal and between metacarpal and the basal phalanx, have a strikingly different shape and function as compared with the fingers. accordingly, the grouping and number of tendons moving the thumb are completely different from a finger. the thumb went through a very distinct evolution if you compare a human hand with that of an ape or, say, the paw of a dog. a dog walks on the tips of its fingers, but the "thumb" is a rudimentary claw at the side that is unable to reach the floor. the thumb presses the piano keys sideways, and it gets in the way when the fingers close to a fist. i don`t have to ask a biologist or a doctor because, aside of being an amateur pianist, I am an orthopaedic doctor myself, with specialization in hand surgery. that`s probably why i`m bitching about the correct terminology. happy new year and......thumbs up! (c:
I love the tip to think of your fingers as a whole and not seperate them because I only thought of them sepreatly and it was hard to make them follow each other and work together. Because yes in classical your fingers are always doing different things and tempos sometime, but they are working together and you will get overwhelmed if you think of them one by one.
I think the main strain on the 4th comes from lateral movement. If you're playing five sequential notes then the 4th is fine but if your stretching, lets say for some reason you play an E with your 3rd, then anything beyond a G with your 4th is bad (Right Hand). Basically you don't want to move more than 2 notes up or down without jumping (And if you land on the 4th after jumping then you're just weird) Weirdly the 4th sometimes makes arpeggios easier for my left hand, take the ascending sequence: E B E F# G B E followed by the same back down. Lots of my friends choose the fingering: 5213212 or some variation but always with either the 3rd or the 2nd on the F#. I instead do: 5214321 which has a bit of a stretch for the 4th but based on my "rule" at the start its fine and makes the arpeggio easier. Also i get a lot of ate for playing G Minor 3rd inversion with 1,2 and 4 but for my and at least its more comfortable than 135 or 125. Chords with 3 and 4 more than 2 notes apart are bad as well. Lmk what you think.
Thanks! This video made me wonder about fingering in a less academic way. The main concepts are also applicable to guitar fingering... Very interesting and inspiring.
Before I was told that Beethoven fingered at least some of his own music, I never thought of fingering as an integral part of a piano piece. I began to think that his placement of a fourth finger was coloring the music as much as anything else.
These would help for pianists who suffers tendonitis. Reducing the amount of times we use our 4th finger, we can alter by using other fingers as Annique demonstrated. I learned big time.
My fourth finger gets tired quickly, but I feel I have more control of the sound with it. For a lonely important note, the fourth finger will make the sound the way I'm looking for
It seemed like when you used your 4th finger less, your hand was more closed compared to when you used your 4th finger more. Could that lead to problems when playing too?
Im a guitarist, and im pretty sure the 4rth finger is pretty much the strongest one (in my case). I mean, my hands have a really wierd shape (my fingers look bent) so I end up using that finger a lot when trying to reach longer distances on the fretboard, and its definitely much much more strong than the 5th finger, as I am able to bend 2 steps with that finger alone, while I cant really bend at all with the pinky.
I love your content but I think that, unintentionally, this is borderline misinformation. I strongly and sincerely believe that "the 4th finger is weak" is a misleading and incomplete statement, especially when repeated ad nauseum without qualification. The 4th finger is not at all weak pressing down. Go ahead and try. It can press down powerfully and decisively without strain. There's nothing inhibiting that downward movement. But the 4th finger is weak pulling up past a certain threshold, and fortunately for us, that threshold is also highly unusual. It can't raise very high for the reasons you say. But that's not a good reason to give it a bad rap, especially since a finger-pulling motion of any digit is not ideal. It's been known scientifically for 35+ years, especially though the school of Dorothy Taubman, that the usual amelioration for this is to use a rotating wrist action to raise the 4th. Fearing and avoiding the 4th finger will inadvertently condone suboptimal use of other fingers, possibly including dangerous stretching. Instead of fearing the 4th finger, it should be embraced. It's desirable to develop a fine technical understanding of how the mechanical facilities offered by extension and rotation of your fingers, wrists, and arms can offer support for the 4th finger (e.g., a rotation of the wrist permits a full range of motion of all of your fingers in both an upward and downward direction). Motion of the 4th should be economical anyway, and if you physically feel the weakness, it likely means that motion is tense and uneconomical. With all of this, a powerful, swift, secure, relaxed, and flexible 4th finger is entirely achievable.
Annique has point it out and explained in previous videos about fingering, the fingering to chose highly depends on your hand size, shape and fingerlength. There is no one fingering. There are people out there with strong forth fingers or flexible fingers who can move each finger separately very easy. However, I e.g. have very long fingers and my forth finger just bends to the inside, when I press, I can do whatever I want. So for me her thoughts are quite helpful.
I don't think Annique fears the 4 th finger. I am pretty sure all her fingers are "pumped with muscles"(they don't have muscles actually, but Anniques finger look like the six pack of Bruce Lee), as she played fast pieces e.g.Mephisto waltz when she was younger (16) without thinking about fingering so much. However, now after years studying, focussing and searching for ways to improve your speed control and your sound control these are the thoughts she shared with us. For an amateur it might feels uncomfortable or not understandable, for an more advanced player it might sound ridiculous as you think you "can play" fast. But for s.o. who is trying to reach "perfectness" in the sense of letting people feel her story, her Interpretation, inner melodies, emphasized notes, she really thinks about every note and that is why for her - at least that is what I think- the fingering changes a lot. I think you can hear that in her Chopin etudes and I think you can also see that during her challenges. The fingering helps her not only to play faster, but is a way for her to think about every note and what this notes meaning is in the complete context. It is like Michael Jackson's dance moves and words were all planned to the very last blink of the eye to make it smooth and perfect
Mostly, I trained my 4th and 5th just to challenge myself, not to avoid your weakness I thought! As you may know, it brings nothing but frustration and injury before I learned Schumann's story.
All interesting points and experimentation (with restraint) should be encouraged once basics are solid, but much of this problem stems from people not having good finger technique in the first place. As long as I'm properly using my whole hand-arm-shoulder muscle system, I have little to no issues with controlling the fourth finger.
Thank you for the video!!! I was really unsure until now about my fingerings because I naturally avoided the fourth finger (on instinct, im not really writing that much😅) And I wanted to use it more often now, since the official fingerings are using it so often. I just thought I didn't practice it enough and it would be a big handycap if I didn't train it correctly. Also danke, dass du mich vor diesem Fehler bewahrt hast!
...I wonder what Chopin himself would have said about your very long lecture..... how do you suggest Op 10 no 2 be played? without the 4th finger....? how about Op 25 op 6..... is the fourth finger used "too much on these two? my question is not limited to those, but in this case, I really wonder what would you advise.... I have a hard time understanding the rationale and alternatives you are offering.....
Sometimes when I play certain pieces on certain pianos, my little finger hurts. This may be due to incorrect little finger technique. Can you make a video on how to correctly press using my little finger in different scenarios with common mistakes? Thanks!
Nevermind, I think it's because I had the bad habit of sometimes using other parts of my pinky to press the key. Instead, I should probably only use the tip of my little finger.
I took piano lessons up to level 4, then nothing for a few years, then self taught myself. After many years, I was like "whoa, how come I never use my 4th finger?" This video makes me feel a bit bitter, although I probably should practice my 4th finger at least a bit. Curious, would you guys use 4th finger say when doing a C major chord with E - G - C - E, would you use a 4th finger on the C in RH or on the G in LH? (I don't even use it for that most of the time, unless 3rd finger is needed somewhere else very quickly)
Although I greatly agree with you, wouldn't be better for the beginners and intermediates (as myself) to learn using their 4th, espacially for scales and other things and start to less using it later?
As a pianist I never really avoided the 4th finger, except in specific situations, eg trills. Personally I don’t feel that it’s any different than the rest of the fingers in passages like the nocturne example. Perhaps it’s how we use the finger and not the fact that we do use it that is the problem?
Great video. What about octaves. When I’m playing the turkish march and the part where the „A, B, C#...“ comes, I‘m using my ring finger for all the octaves of the black notes and the pinkie finger for all the white ones. What I wanna ask you, is that if you‘d recommend me to use the pinkie for the octaves with black notes, or if you’d recommend me, using the 4th finger.?
I think most pianists would use the fourth finger there. I guess it helps move faster since you dont have to raise the pinky too. But, if you have small hands you should use the pinky. That's at least what I do. Otherwise I would kill my hand 😱😉
Check out Anniques Quick tips on her channel. There are even some more videos about chosing the right fingering. Its not the same for every hand shape and size. :)
The 4th finger is not that weak. If you play next to the others like scales. You feel the weakness while playing chords, especially the ones with4 notes or more that open the hands. Yes we have less muscle control in the 4th. But you said in the beginning no muscles.... There's muscles.
I disagree really I think both versions of fingerings for those 8 measures were not appealing to me. I think that the 5th finger is definitely weaker and smaller and that while the 4th finger does not lift independently of the other fingers it can absolutely be lifted in combination with the adjacent fingers, i.e. finger 3 and 4 together or 4 and 5 together. And with forearm rotation the 4th finger can be plenty powerful. There is no situation when I'm playing where I feel a need to lift my 4th finger and have my other fingers in contact with the keys when they do not have to play. If I am playing 543, I lift 4 AND 3 when I'm about to play 4. It creates a lot more power. The fingers have to work together not be rigidly independent.
My priority in choosing fingers is usually how can I move less, but in a melodic context I know that is not always as important as the tone but I don't think the 4th finger has a bad tone. It has it's place.
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Very interesting video! I don't agree with you at all with your fingering for the Nocturne, but if it works for you or other people that's what's important.
I think she has not emphasized it here so much but said it in all her previous videos about fingering. There is no one right fingering as it does depend on your hand shape, size and the piece you play and the story you want to tell.
I don't think using the fourth finger as little as possible is right. This would result in a lot of turning, and it can tire your wrist quickly, while also weakening your playing and your sound. You just have to aknowledge when it is the best time to use the 4th finger. As a personal question, I ask whoever is reading this to try Bach's D major prelude of the 1st book of the WTC and tell me how they would avoid using the 4th finger in the piece, especially in the first few measures.
This week i was starting to learn Arabesque from Debussy and had the problem that my Finger 4 dont want to do what i wanted and the Finger felt like heavy and uncomftable EXATLY in this moment i saw your Video lol
I think you misunderstand and underestimate the complexity of the movement that occurs in the whole of your body and extremities, all the way from your fingertips to your pectoral and back muscles. The lack of energy your ringfinger can provide by itself during flexion and extention when held static has nothing to do with the amount of power you can concentrate on a key when playing the piano, which is a very dynamic activity. The freedom of movement to move, shift, rotate, lower, elevate etc. etc. makes up and compensates for any kind of loss in energy that you might experience when keeping your hands in a static position. Like how a slight twisting of your wrist can add al lot of force to a keystroke for example. I think you should not overthink it to much and just go with what feels right and effortless to you... that is what your body will dictate in any case.
Really useful, game changer. Changing the fingering in this way has many more advantage I have found it also activates the wrist and the arm more naturally. Do you apply this concept on the op 10 n. 2?
Yeah I agree with you. 4th finger only when forced by no other choice, or is just so easy to use. I play accordion though so easier to press keys, but left hand we only have finger 2,3,4,5 to use (cant use thumb) so fingering was always written on to the music. I did Paginini/List arrangement the Chase (on TH-cam if you are interested), 3 octaves up white keys, why use C Major fingering when 1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3, etc up to the top was easier? I actually think of 4th finger as finger #6 as well, as it can cross past #5 really easily. C,D,E,F,G,G# = 1,2,3,4,5,6.... :D instead of 1,2,3,1,2,3 or something, no thumb crossover. My rule: "Do it the easy way unless there is a better way!" :D Edit: I do still use my 4th a crap load too though, and actually prefer trills 3-4 rather than 2-3 or 1-2....go figure....... :/
For sure the 4th finger has issues because of its link with the 3rd . While trills 3/4 should be avoided whenever possible , I’m not sure I see any compelling reason not to use the 4th finger when it is used in a adjacent ( scale type ) of sequence . There are some situations where the 4th fingers excels ( fast arpeggios , 2-4 trills or thirds, 5 -4 in chromatic octaves or in upper phrasing with mixed white and black notes ) . Liszt wrote specific exercices to use any finger in all situations including 4th and thumb so why wouldn’t we ? At the end of the day every hand is different so it’s depends on anyone morphology. I know Chopin wasn’t a fan of using the 4th but Liszt changed that view imho .
My wrists are always tense and I can't play for more than an hour at a time because my back starts to hurt. Do you have any advice on relaxing the wrists to improve playing?
If you don't already have one, get a teacher. Don't push into the piano, let gravity do most of the work and kinda let your fingers sink in. Best advice: teacher
Mila, are you playing a digital piano or an acoustic piano? I find with digital pianos the velocity sensitive mechanism encourages tension in the wrists and shoulders. Acoustic pianos are force sensitive rather than velocity sensitive so the weight of your arms is used in a different way. I wish I could get a real piano into my music room!
I have a strong dilema: how will I know when should I stop using my 4th finger just to get it stronger, to practice his obedience (for voiceing, independence and flexibility), and start overprotecting it on purpose, so that I could learn faster? If you don't use it, you lose it, but in the same time, if you force it, you break it. So how to identify that ballance point between the two extremes? At least at the begining you must practice your finger independence in order to build it. So your advice is for someone more advanced. My question is how advanced should one be to start avoiding the 4th finger? I have a very satisfing obedient 4th finger on my left hand, but my right one is in its own cathegory, no idea how to "fix it". I feel like it needs some special practice of some kind, as if I will never be a complete pianist unless I get to master it or at least unlink it a bit from his neibours, please help! And thank you!❤🤗
I think you need to read George A. Kochevitsky book, "The Art of Piano Playing: A Scientific Approach" (The Art of Series) Nov 16, 1995 on piano playing. It's in the brain, not the fingers.
@@JoeLinux2000 well yes, I do. I have a severe brain trauma btw. No idea if it affected only my right foot or also my 4th right finger, since the parts of the brain are very close and it happend probably when I was born. No neurologist was able to answer my question. So I practice, hopeing it helps.
interesting :) For me the problem of the 4th finger is really there in, for example, the Chopin etude opus 25 n11. How do you handle that when it comes to very large position of the hand , for example in your amazing video opus 10 & 25 live rehearsal, at exactly 1:10:43? For that kind of sequence the hand is in large position, you simply can't avoid the 4th finger and it's quite hard to control / lift it up. How do you handle the 4th finger problem in that kind of context?
When you're a medical student studying anatomy and decide to take a study break with a Video from Heart of the Keys, but then Anique decides to bring anatomy into the video.
i agree with a lot of stuff, but at 8:59, for example, you use 3-3, which makes no sense. by using the same finger twice in a row you are contradicting yourself when you say that "using less the 4th finger supports the movements". when you use the same finger you have to reposition your entire hand, creating a unnatural movement and neglecting finger legato, which is really important. also, i think that if using the 4th creates a more natural movement and the possibility to do finger legato, then it's use is absolutely justifiable. but that's just my opinion.
I agree with. I too think that there arent strict "rules" just "guidelines". There is some kind of consensus on how to play (like fingering of scales etc) but the rest highly depends on your hand size/shape and what you have already practiced and what feels comfortable. I often have to "break" lots of rules because I cant always use recommended fingerings (got a small hand 😬 you learn to get used to it😉)
Annique posted a couple of more videos about this topic and I think if you watch them you will get a better understanding of how to choose your fingering fitting to your hand
I'm with you on this. That 3-3 legato transition was supported by the pedal and I reckon most mere mortals (myself included) don't have the pedal control to make that a better legato than if they had just used the fourth finger... Also, the same thing with the thumb and whole hand movements. In both cases, I think most pianists would save energy by using their fourth finger rather than trying to burn it with additional whole hand movements or using the pedal (which might also affect the harmony). But I'm still going to give some of Annique's ideas a try! :)
I apparently never made it far enough playing piano when I was young. I've never seen a score with suggested fingerings. Is this common with complex pieces?
Great thumbnail, got my attention 😆
lol
@@hongkonger885 lol indeed. . . .
I actually play the piano and just from the thumbnail alone I was like here we go....
More like a ring finger nail to me though
As a violinist who also plays the piano, it surprises me when pianists complain about their 4th finger, when for us violinists our 5th is often the weakest one (even when I play the piano).
I don't play the violin myself, but I could imagine it may have to do with the shape of the wrist as well. At the piano you can use your wrist as a pivot point and transfer (rotational) movement of the entire hand through your fifth finger into the keys. If I'm not mistaken, the fact that you hold the violin by the neck with your hand means more of the energy has to come from the finger itself and less weight can be transferred through the wrist. I'd be interested to hear what you think about this though, I'm just guessing.
That's because the gesture is completely different. You have more strength when it comes to push down and hold this pressure with your fourth, this is also true for a pianist. But when you play piano, you're not pressing chords, you're hitting keys and not maintaining this weight down. Once the hammer as hit the chord and the key is down, you can press as hard or as light as you want, it's useless. But when it comes to "hit" and be fast, especially in relations with other fingers, your little finger is more agile and faster.
Perdón por escribir en español, así me puedo expresar mejor, solo espero que el traductor automático haga su trabajo... Supongo que es porque la posición que se usa al tocar el violín permite usar toda la fuerza del dedo 4, por otro lado al tocar piano debido a las aperturas y como tal la postura de la mano el dedo no puede usar su fuerza apropiadamente. Eso es lo que yo creo
@@alkischrysanthopoulos5712 yeah actually that makes sense, when I press my fingers down I use my thumb to counteract the force. Though it doesn't explain why when I play the piano, my 4th finger is still wayyy stronger than my 5th
@@white.gloves3166 well no, my 4th finger is still stronger than my 5th in that regard. From what I can tell, my 4ty is way stronger than my 5th in every situation
All of this is golden, but there are exceptions; I think the rule should not be to use the 4th finger as less as possible, but to know strengths and weaknesses of your hands and learn when it's best not to use it and when it's best to use it.
I know there are make up artists who use their 4th finger a lot when they make up because being weaker than the other fingers it's more delicate and more suited for certain things.
On the piano I think it's kind of similar, I find the 4th finger well suited when I have to play soft passages or upbeat notes that must not have any accent, while I try to avoid using it when I have to play with full sound and I try to use the 3rd instead or another finger depending on the context.
I also think it's best to use the 4th finger sometimes when it allows you to avoid thumb passages that could slow you down or produce a less fluid result.
I like to think that every finger has a dynamic range where it's more at ease and it has more control of the sound. I think the 4th finger has the most control (probably more than the thumb or the 3rd finger) in a dynamic range shifted towards the ppp; if you play louder outside of this range you are forcing yourself doing something unnatural and it's almost impossible to have control of the sound.
That being said, every hand is different ad everyone should find his rules for fingering. I see this comparing my hand to other people's, and also comparing my right and left hand; there are some movements I can do with one hand that I can't in any way replicate with my other hand, or positions I find myself comfortable with one hand and uncomfortable with the other. So in some cases I would play perfectly symmetrical passages with different fingerings for the right hand and the left hand.
This video has freed me to some degree. I’ve always wanted to play like this, but I felt strapped to convention. Breaking free from convention is okay as long as it done carefully and thoughtfully. I play much better when I have done this in the past and I blamed it on my lack of training. I’m going to think outside of that old box now.
In the "Essay on the True Art of Playing Keyboard Instruments", C. P. E. Bach wrote extensively on fingering. Always worth a read by keyboardist. IIRC Bach advocated the use of 2-3-4, the thumb for turning-through....and rarely the 5th finger. I photocopied his chapters on fingerings and performance practice several decades ago. Note that Bach wrote "The Essay" in the era of the clavichord, harpsichord and the wooden-framed pianoforte. The iron-framed piano didn't come to the fore for almost a hundred years later, but I think his insights are still valid.
I'm practicing a sonata that has many trills. I spent a few weeks doing it with the 4th and 3rd fingers and I actully got a lot better with the 4th, but after I saw this video I switched it to fingers 3 and 5. It took me less time and effort to play it right with this fingering and it actually sounds better. Thanks for the video.
I specifically try to train all 5 of my fingers equally because this enhances my technical ability the most, and neglecting my 4 and 5 just reduces their independence and strength. I have much more control when I play now with all 5 of my fingers. I often specifically train the 3 4 and 5 to correct for their weakness. Any concert pianist will have far stronger 4 and 5 than untrained people so It's clearly possible
She also said that if you try working against the nature of your hand you can have aching and hurt your hand/wrist so be careful ...
I agree, Vinay. Using a finger less, just makes it weaker. I play with no tension, no pain, and can’t imagine using my 4th less than I do!
@Vinay - Annique’s view is the 4th finger has no independence, being joined by tendons to the 5th. This makes for a more limited range and ability in the 4th. She implies that’s why she avoids using the 4th, whenever reasonably able to do so.
Yep! The “Use it or lose it” theory
Very interesting take on fingerings ; I also have that bad habit of following mindlessly fingerings when they're written on the sheets, telling myself : "If it's written that way, it must be the most ergonomic way to play it". Turns out it's not always the case.
I find when practising a Bach fugue it is difficult to choose between the 4th or the 3rd in broken chords. You may have resolved the issue for me. Thanks for this new perspective on finger choices.
Just started watching, but I’m really curious what you’re gonna say; this has been my lifelong problem as well: the fourth finger weakness. Hope I’ll improve after your video!
same here
Same here too!
@@luimichi sameeeeeeeeeee
Der vierte Finger ist zu schwach, dafür der Daumen zu schwer usw. Ich stimme Dir zu, dass sich das Fingering harmonisch bzw. organisch und gut anfühlen muss. Die Hand ist ein absolutes Wunder der Natur, hat aber ihre Eigenheiten, die zu beachten sind. Ansonsten droht eine fokale Dystonie, wie bspw. bei Robert Schumann u.a.
We're heirs of puritan culture here in the U. S. and often inclined to think anything harder, more difficult, or painful is automatically the right way. With your encouragement I have already gone through a couple pieces I'm working on and redone the fingering. Feels amazing and already sounds better. Will not be looking back.
Good for you. I think your approach is best.
Looking forward to a video about the third finger 🤪
All silliness aside, I learn more from Annique than I did my piano teacher. So grateful for your videos!
Check out one of her first videos on this channel th-cam.com/video/Pwrl74L24OI/w-d-xo.html
For a second I though I was getting flipped off😂
i made my 4th finger the strongest by breaking all my other fingers.
I just found myself training the 4th finger a lot. I remember when I started learning Beethoven's Für Elise, I deliberately use 4th and 5th fingers to start the piece, to train my weaker fingers.
Also, when I studied the Moonlight Sonata 2nd Movement, I use a lot of 1-4 finger octave, to play better legato.
I love the original perspective. I’m trying this out on a Haydn sonata (Hoboken XVI:49) right away. Thank You for the wonderful videos.
I've been watching your Chopin Etudes. You have such a wonderful fluidity to your playing it's a pleasure to watch. And I credit this to your passion for fingering and your desire to use the fingers that help you play the piece musically, not just in a way that is "technically correct." Thanks for sharing your skill and talent with us, Annique!
I really like your videos. I play jazz. But I prefer to force to use the fouth finger, otherwise I would never use it. One will never develop if they don't use
Interesting take and I agree for most. I still like to use my fourth finger for extremely dense octaves even though its possible with 1-5. It maintains your hand relaxed as you are constantly switching between fourth and fifth finger. Especially on octaves with black keys the fourth finger does actually improve the ability even though you aren't forced to use it.
Your point of avoiding the ring finger to maximize control is interesting. however, i think that your rationale behind it is not correct. you mention that the middle and the ring finger are connected, but this is wrong, since you are showing the supposed connection when trying to extend and lift the fingers up, and not while bending them (actually, there are interconnections between the extensor tendons of all 4 fingers, but this does not matter here). the reason why you have to struggle more when you try to lift the middle and the ring fingers while holding the index and little finger bent, is that both only use one common extensor tendon, meanwhile the index and the pinky each have an additional extensor tendon. actually, from an anatomical point of view, there is one single muscle with 4 tendons extending the index, middle, ring and little finger (it is called the "common extensor muscle), meanwhile the index has a second, distinct extensor muscle (called "extensor of the index"), and so does the pinky ("extensor of the little finger"). this gives the index and the pinky more autonomy for extension on their own. however, this is not what causes the supposed "weakness" of the fourth, as we are talking about extension, meanwhile you use flexion when you play the piano.
the true reason is that, usually (there are rare anatomical variances in all these elements), the flexion on the ring finger and the pinky is innervated by a different nerve than the thumb, index and middle finger. however, the number of motor fibres for flexion in this nerve is lower - most of its motor fibers are used for the muscles within the palm which act on all 4 fingers ( the "intrinsics", which give you the ability to spread your fingers, or to press them against each other - you use them for lateral movements, which are also important for piano playing, but that is a different story). this means that, in truth, it is the ring finger AND the little finger who are both weaker than the other two and the thumb, but the shorter, and therefore weaker, pinky can compensate this by applying force in a much different way (like when you play octaves): when you want to enforce the use of the little finger, you often support it with wrist force, applying a little rotation movement of the hand, but you hardly ever need to extend another finger when you apply this force on the little finger. however, if you enforce flexion of the ring finger with wrist force, in most cases you have to actively lift up the pinky so it does not get in the way. this decreases force, but, most importantly, independence when you use the ring finger - the movement becomes more complex, as simultaneous flexing and extending becomes involved. this is precisely what you feel as "lesser control" as to compared with the use of the thumb, index and middle finger.
in reality, it is a little bit more complicated than this, because there are even more small muscles involved when it comes to pinky movement - - alas, i tried to simplify a bit in order to keep it understandable.....
i thought this might interest you. btw, i greatly enjoy the content on your website!
This is a great inspiration for my final assignment subject, thank you. I think it's extremely interesting and important to understand how the movements in the hand works.
Thanks for this. I'm curious if you're familiar with this idea from an essay titled "Piano Technique- Anatomy of the Hand and its Relevance to a Fluent Finger Technique" (it can be found by googling that title). The idea is basically that you should aim to use the interossei rather than the flexors. It's worth looking up the paper to see the full explanation. I have no knowledge of anatomy but as a pianist i always felt like this was true since reading this essay many years ago, the feeling that when the palm muscles are very active then I have a strong "bridge" and it allows the wrist and arm to be relaxed. Thoughts?
Using the 4th too much lead me to neglect wrist and elbow positions/movement. Thanks for all the thoughts in this video! I loved it.
Not everyone would agree on this is. Quite an intriguing video but an "eye opener" to a lot of beginner pianists and it shows also how you are becoming mature with your musicality - efficiency and control, over flashiness and by the book playing.
I had lots of troubles with Rondo allá Turca and since I changed my fingerings using less de 4th finger I can play it better :)
You don’t mention trills, but after listening to your advice, I’m going to revisit places where I have trills with 4-5 or 3-4, which I find close to impossible to get right. Now I understand why. Many tx for this informative vid!
Talking about trills, for some reason playing trills with 2-3 is by far the hardest fingering for me to do, is it the same for anyone else?
@@jonaby2123 You could try the Thalburg fingering which is 1-3-2-3, or you could just use 1 and 3. For practicing and playing trills it is better to use a grand piano instead of an upright. This is because upright piano actions do not have a double escapement, so the keys need to return almost all the way up before they can repeat. Grand piano actions have a repeat spring, so their keys only need to rise a small amount before they can repeat.
Annique made a video about trills a while ago, maybe it can help you ;) th-cam.com/video/sqcAQDbzeTQ/w-d-xo.html
I believe she kinda went over it in her trills video.
@@jonaby2123 more than trills perhaps it is in turns where 4 is often written in the score and they could improve with a different fingering
I'm studying this piece right now! This was a video sent from Heaven! :D
Very interesting approach! The fourth finger is commonly taught as "the most singing finger" and your example of the Chopin Nocture is a slow and very singing melody. If your example were Chopin's Prelude # 16 (presto con fuoco), that would be an entirely different case of avoiding the 4th finger to increase perlando and speed! Another argument in favor of using the 4th finger MORE often is that it will be better trained for those cases when its use is inevitable!
Schumann trained to train his finger and injured himself irreversible
@@coleptera180 yeah but most people dont try to use some weird device when they are trying to strengthen their fingers.
@@coleptera180 yes, however not by simply playing, but when using a self-constructed training device with a loop that was fixed on his 4th finger and on the ceiling....
In classical guitar we call it the anular, written as just the letter a on scores. I also avoid using it whenever possible, but now I will also avoid using it on piano (which I've been struggling to learn for some time because there are no teachers around me) and see if I actually make any progress.
I'm 1 minute into the video and I just realised a better fingering for the piece I'm learning because I used the 4th finger too much, thanks for keeping me sharp lol
Great. That's a piece I've played for many years. No way I'd be able to change now. But I'll try your advice on new pieces. Thank you!
Interesting! For me, the weakest finger is now the 5th, when I started playing, almost 10 y ago, It was really difficult to play with the 4th, but I trained this one a lot until It get so strong as the 1-2-3 fingers. Sometimes isn´t about not using, but using as much as you can!
Another thing she mentions is the amount of energy you need for the fourth finger. Many pianists train it, but isn't this finger still more tiring to use?
Thank you. I find using the forth finger exhausting! Time to check out my music and review my fingering notes. Great video.
It's not the 4th finger by itself that is exhausting but how it is used in conjunction with other fingers. It is important to be aware that the 4th in conjunction with other fingers, can be problematic. The problem can actually be with fingers that are not working. They can get in the way. Recently I've been doing a lot more single hand practice in an effort to better split my brain. The issue is actually in the brain, not the fingers. A good pianist's brain controls the fingers. A non pianist's brain can't.
Im just starting to learn piano, and even though at this point i don't understand the majority of what you're talking about, your channel is still a godsend 🙏
I use my 4th finger in lieu of my 'pinky' all the time especially on the black keys because it's an inch longer than my little finger. I cross my little finger under my 4th when descending from a black key played by the 4th. I've put significant thought into it. You are kind of a 3 finger player, which actually works quite well. I don't object to your fingering at all but in the original fingering there is an F and F# and the F# is played by the little finger which for me is very awkward. It would be better for me to use my 4th finger on the F# and my little finger on the F. It's odd, but it works. Another issue is that males are said to have a 4th finger that is much longer than their little finger while female's finger are much closer to the same length. The message should be to work out a fingering that works for you and not be obligated to the fingering in the score which was for someone else's hand. I look at it. If it's good I use it, if it isn't I look for something else. It's not always easy to find the best fingering straight out from the beginning. What I think is best at the outset, is often not what I end up using.
Your fingerings only work because it's a slow melody though. When playing faster melodies you often don't have a choice but to use the fourth finger. Also in broken chords you can't really get around using the fourth finger.
I'm here because i finally hurt myself for the first time with my obviously poor self taught piano playing technique. My fourth finger has been so sore for almost a week that I can't hardly play (and obviously feel like I shouldn't play).
This video has made it clear that I haven't taken the nature of my fourth finger seriously. I'm sad 😭
Your tips always helps me a lot so can you make a video about pathetique sonata 1st movement. There are lots of octaves so my left wrist is always getting tense no matter how much I practise. Also love your content
The thumb is very strong and deffinitely the best finger for loud passages. But in my opinion the fourth finger is more sensitive and sometimes a better choice for slow melodies like in the chopin nocturne you used as an example.
the thumb is not a finger - it is the thumb, which is a completely different story than a finger. for instance, it presses the piano key sideways.
this is the reason why, in america, people commonly refer to the index finger as the "first finger", the middle finger as the "second finger", and so on.
@@dragonflycrashed5511 Thats what I mean, the problem with what she says is that instead of the 4th finger she uses much more the thumb and with the thumb its more difficult to controll the sound because the thumb is sideways as you mentioned. A long time ago (before Bach) people used to play without the thumb. But of course the thumb is an extraordinary finger who allows us to play crazy virtuosic stuff.
@@manuelernst397 again: the thumb is not a finger. it is anatomically and functionally completely different from a finger. that is why it is called "thumb", and the other 4 are called "fingers".
@@dragonflycrashed5511 The latin name for thumb is "digitus primus manus" which means something like "the first finger of the hand". It is diffrent from the other fingers but the thumb is still one of the five fingers on a hand if you ask a biologist/doctor.
@@manuelernst397 again, you are completely wrong. the thumb is called "pollex", and all of its tendons have names referring to "pollex". simply translating "first finger" into latin does not make it a correct name.
again, the thumb is not a finger. it has a completely different structure and function: it consists of 2 phalanges instead of the fingers` 3, it moves in a plane perpendicular to the fingers, and its joints, particularly at the base of the metacarpal and between metacarpal and the basal phalanx, have a strikingly different shape and function as compared with the fingers. accordingly, the grouping and number of tendons moving the thumb are completely different from a finger. the thumb went through a very distinct evolution if you compare a human hand with that of an ape or, say, the paw of a dog. a dog walks on the tips of its fingers, but the "thumb" is a rudimentary claw at the side that is unable to reach the floor.
the thumb presses the piano keys sideways, and it gets in the way when the fingers close to a fist. i don`t have to ask a biologist or a doctor because, aside of being an amateur pianist, I am an orthopaedic doctor myself, with specialization in hand surgery. that`s probably why i`m bitching about the correct terminology.
happy new year and......thumbs up! (c:
I love the tip to think of your fingers as a whole and not seperate them because I only thought of them sepreatly and it was hard to make them follow each other and work together. Because yes in classical your fingers are always doing different things and tempos sometime, but they are working together and you will get overwhelmed if you think of them one by one.
My 4 th finger sucks not treating as an equal and avoiding it at times, is a great idea. Thx
I just love your intros lol, your video skills are really good.
I think the main strain on the 4th comes from lateral movement. If you're playing five sequential notes then the 4th is fine but if your stretching, lets say for some reason you play an E with your 3rd, then anything beyond a G with your 4th is bad (Right Hand). Basically you don't want to move more than 2 notes up or down without jumping (And if you land on the 4th after jumping then you're just weird)
Weirdly the 4th sometimes makes arpeggios easier for my left hand, take the ascending sequence:
E B E F# G B E followed by the same back down.
Lots of my friends choose the fingering:
5213212 or some variation but always with either the 3rd or the 2nd on the F#.
I instead do:
5214321 which has a bit of a stretch for the 4th but based on my "rule" at the start its fine and makes the arpeggio easier.
Also i get a lot of ate for playing G Minor 3rd inversion with 1,2 and 4 but for my and at least its more comfortable than 135 or 125.
Chords with 3 and 4 more than 2 notes apart are bad as well.
Lmk what you think.
Nice video. The ring finger when sticking upwards looks even nicer😂
Thanks! This video made me wonder about fingering in a less academic way. The main concepts are also applicable to guitar fingering...
Very interesting and inspiring.
This is really interesting, many rock climbers claim that their ring finger is their strongest!
Before I was told that Beethoven fingered at least some of his own music, I never thought of fingering as an integral part of a piano piece. I began to think that his placement of a fourth finger was coloring the music as much as anything else.
These would help for pianists who suffers tendonitis. Reducing the amount of times we use our 4th finger, we can alter by using other fingers as Annique demonstrated. I learned big time.
My fourth finger gets tired quickly, but I feel I have more control of the sound with it. For a lonely important note, the fourth finger will make the sound the way I'm looking for
It seemed like when you used your 4th finger less, your hand was more closed compared to when you used your 4th finger more. Could that lead to problems when playing too?
Im a guitarist, and im pretty sure the 4rth finger is pretty much the strongest one (in my case). I mean, my hands have a really wierd shape (my fingers look bent) so I end up using that finger a lot when trying to reach longer distances on the fretboard, and its definitely much much more strong than the 5th finger, as I am able to bend 2 steps with that finger alone, while I cant really bend at all with the pinky.
I love your content but I think that, unintentionally, this is borderline misinformation. I strongly and sincerely believe that "the 4th finger is weak" is a misleading and incomplete statement, especially when repeated ad nauseum without qualification. The 4th finger is not at all weak pressing down. Go ahead and try. It can press down powerfully and decisively without strain. There's nothing inhibiting that downward movement. But the 4th finger is weak pulling up past a certain threshold, and fortunately for us, that threshold is also highly unusual. It can't raise very high for the reasons you say. But that's not a good reason to give it a bad rap, especially since a finger-pulling motion of any digit is not ideal. It's been known scientifically for 35+ years, especially though the school of Dorothy Taubman, that the usual amelioration for this is to use a rotating wrist action to raise the 4th.
Fearing and avoiding the 4th finger will inadvertently condone suboptimal use of other fingers, possibly including dangerous stretching. Instead of fearing the 4th finger, it should be embraced. It's desirable to develop a fine technical understanding of how the mechanical facilities offered by extension and rotation of your fingers, wrists, and arms can offer support for the 4th finger (e.g., a rotation of the wrist permits a full range of motion of all of your fingers in both an upward and downward direction). Motion of the 4th should be economical anyway, and if you physically feel the weakness, it likely means that motion is tense and uneconomical. With all of this, a powerful, swift, secure, relaxed, and flexible 4th finger is entirely achievable.
Annique has point it out and explained in previous videos about fingering, the fingering to chose highly depends on your hand size, shape and fingerlength. There is no one fingering. There are people out there with strong forth fingers or flexible fingers who can move each finger separately very easy. However, I e.g. have very long fingers and my forth finger just bends to the inside, when I press, I can do whatever I want. So for me her thoughts are quite helpful.
I don't think Annique fears the 4 th finger. I am pretty sure all her fingers are "pumped with muscles"(they don't have muscles actually, but Anniques finger look like the six pack of Bruce Lee), as she played fast pieces e.g.Mephisto waltz when she was younger (16) without thinking about fingering so much. However, now after years studying, focussing and searching for ways to improve your speed control and your sound control these are the thoughts she shared with us. For an amateur it might feels uncomfortable or not understandable, for an more advanced player it might sound ridiculous as you think you "can play" fast. But for s.o. who is trying to reach "perfectness" in the sense of letting people feel her story, her Interpretation, inner melodies, emphasized notes, she really thinks about every note and that is why for her - at least that is what I think- the fingering changes a lot. I think you can hear that in her Chopin etudes and I think you can also see that during her challenges. The fingering helps her not only to play faster, but is a way for her to think about every note and what this notes meaning is in the complete context. It is like Michael Jackson's dance moves and words were all planned to the very last blink of the eye to make it smooth and perfect
Thank you Annique, a very interesting video :)
Mostly, I trained my 4th and 5th just to challenge myself, not to avoid your weakness I thought! As you may know, it brings nothing but frustration and injury before I learned Schumann's story.
All interesting points and experimentation (with restraint) should be encouraged once basics are solid, but much of this problem stems from people not having good finger technique in the first place. As long as I'm properly using my whole hand-arm-shoulder muscle system, I have little to no issues with controlling the fourth finger.
Thank you for the video!!! I was really unsure until now about my fingerings because I naturally avoided the fourth finger (on instinct, im not really writing that much😅) And I wanted to use it more often now, since the official fingerings are using it so often.
I just thought I didn't practice it enough and it would be a big handycap if I didn't train it correctly.
Also danke, dass du mich vor diesem Fehler bewahrt hast!
Sehr interessant! Dankeschön!
I am violinist 10 minutes in the video and I just realized 4th finger is not the pinky.
One way to strength the 4th finger is to use it frequently on black key octaves.
omg i was literally googling what to do about my fourth finger 2 hours ago! that was amazing timing haha
...I wonder what Chopin himself would have said about your very long lecture..... how do you suggest Op 10 no 2 be played? without the 4th finger....? how about Op 25 op 6..... is the fourth finger used "too much on these two? my question is not limited to those, but in this case, I really wonder what would you advise.... I have a hard time understanding the rationale and alternatives you are offering.....
I hope I didn't miss it in the video but would you actually play the piece as shown in the second example, or is it just exaggerated?
I know it looks strange and crazy at first - but yes, this is a fingering I would use.
I prefer all my left hand than my right hand's fourth finger
Holy mackerel I love your videos
The music to Psycho at the beginning!
Sometimes when I play certain pieces on certain pianos, my little finger hurts. This may be due to incorrect little finger technique. Can you make a video on how to correctly press using my little finger in different scenarios with common mistakes? Thanks!
Nevermind, I think it's because I had the bad habit of sometimes using other parts of my pinky to press the key. Instead, I should probably only use the tip of my little finger.
I would like to hear and see the application of your theory on Chopin Op 10 no 2.....
I took piano lessons up to level 4, then nothing for a few years, then self taught myself. After many years, I was like "whoa, how come I never use my 4th finger?" This video makes me feel a bit bitter, although I probably should practice my 4th finger at least a bit.
Curious, would you guys use 4th finger say when doing a C major chord with E - G - C - E, would you use a 4th finger on the C in RH or on the G in LH? (I don't even use it for that most of the time, unless 3rd finger is needed somewhere else very quickly)
I have this with the pinky more.
Although I greatly agree with you, wouldn't be better for the beginners and intermediates (as myself) to learn using their 4th, espacially for scales and other things and start to less using it later?
As a pianist I never really avoided the 4th finger, except in specific situations, eg trills. Personally I don’t feel that it’s any different than the rest of the fingers in passages like the nocturne example. Perhaps it’s how we use the finger and not the fact that we do use it that is the problem?
Great video. What about octaves. When I’m playing the turkish march and the part where the „A, B, C#...“ comes, I‘m using my ring finger for all the octaves of the black notes and the pinkie finger for all the white ones. What I wanna ask you, is that if you‘d recommend me to use the pinkie for the octaves with black notes, or if you’d recommend me, using the 4th finger.?
I think most pianists would use the fourth finger there. I guess it helps move faster since you dont have to raise the pinky too. But, if you have small hands you should use the pinky. That's at least what I do. Otherwise I would kill my hand 😱😉
@@Chopin_fan Alright. Thank you for the advice. Since I don’t have small hands, I’ll continue that way.👍🏾
Check out Anniques Quick tips on her channel. There are even some more videos about chosing the right fingering. Its not the same for every hand shape and size. :)
The 4th finger is not that weak. If you play next to the others like scales. You feel the weakness while playing chords, especially the ones with4 notes or more that open the hands. Yes we have less muscle control in the 4th. But you said in the beginning no muscles.... There's muscles.
I disagree really I think both versions of fingerings for those 8 measures were not appealing to me. I think that the 5th finger is definitely weaker and smaller and that while the 4th finger does not lift independently of the other fingers it can absolutely be lifted in combination with the adjacent fingers, i.e. finger 3 and 4 together or 4 and 5 together. And with forearm rotation the 4th finger can be plenty powerful. There is no situation when I'm playing where I feel a need to lift my 4th finger and have my other fingers in contact with the keys when they do not have to play. If I am playing 543, I lift 4 AND 3 when I'm about to play 4. It creates a lot more power. The fingers have to work together not be rigidly independent.
My priority in choosing fingers is usually how can I move less, but in a melodic context I know that is not always as important as the tone but I don't think the 4th finger has a bad tone. It has it's place.
Very interesting video!
I don't agree with you at all with your fingering for the Nocturne, but if it works for you or other people that's what's important.
I think she has not emphasized it here so much but said it in all her previous videos about fingering. There is no one right fingering as it does depend on your hand shape, size and the piece you play and the story you want to tell.
I don't think using the fourth finger as little as possible is right. This would result in a lot of turning, and it can tire your wrist quickly, while also weakening your playing and your sound. You just have to aknowledge when it is the best time to use the 4th finger. As a personal question, I ask whoever is reading this to try Bach's D major prelude of the 1st book of the WTC and tell me how they would avoid using the 4th finger in the piece, especially in the first few measures.
J. S. Bach frequently played fast trills in *thirds* with 2 4 - 3 5 fingering, that’s a real flex on nature.
I need to relax!!!
This week i was starting to learn Arabesque from Debussy and had the problem that my Finger 4 dont want to do what i wanted and the Finger felt like heavy and uncomftable EXATLY in this moment i saw your Video lol
Im realy Happy that I saw your Video, thats lifechanging
I think you misunderstand and underestimate the complexity of the movement that occurs in the whole of your body and extremities, all the way from your fingertips to your pectoral and back muscles. The lack of energy your ringfinger can provide by itself during flexion and extention when held static has nothing to do with the amount of power you can concentrate on a key when playing the piano, which is a very dynamic activity. The freedom of movement to move, shift, rotate, lower, elevate etc. etc. makes up and compensates for any kind of loss in energy that you might experience when keeping your hands in a static position. Like how a slight twisting of your wrist can add al lot of force to a keystroke for example. I think you should not overthink it to much and just go with what feels right and effortless to you... that is what your body will dictate in any case.
If you can make the "fuck you" sign with your fourth finger, without moving your other fingers, it means that you're good to go.
The ring finger on my right hand is so weak and it makes playing fast passages on flute a damn nightmare 😂😭
I just did all those tests and my 4th finger behaves independently just fine
Thanks for share. I love your videos, greetings from Perú.
Really useful, game changer. Changing the fingering in this way has many more advantage I have found it also activates the wrist and the arm more naturally. Do you apply this concept on the op 10 n. 2?
thank you annique. I can't wait for winter wind etude op 25 n 11 and 12 the ocean
Delightful!
my pinkies are my finger foes. Very enlightening. Thank you!
This is what makes consecutive 3rds so hard to me
Yeah I agree with you. 4th finger only when forced by no other choice, or is just so easy to use. I play accordion though so easier to press keys, but left hand we only have finger 2,3,4,5 to use (cant use thumb) so fingering was always written on to the music. I did Paginini/List arrangement the Chase (on TH-cam if you are interested), 3 octaves up white keys, why use C Major fingering when 1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3, etc up to the top was easier? I actually think of 4th finger as finger #6 as well, as it can cross past #5 really easily. C,D,E,F,G,G# = 1,2,3,4,5,6.... :D instead of 1,2,3,1,2,3 or something, no thumb crossover. My rule: "Do it the easy way unless there is a better way!" :D
Edit: I do still use my 4th a crap load too though, and actually prefer trills 3-4 rather than 2-3 or 1-2....go figure....... :/
necesito estos vídeos en español :/
For sure the 4th finger has issues because of its link with the 3rd . While trills 3/4 should be avoided whenever possible , I’m not sure I see any compelling reason not to use the 4th finger when it is used in a adjacent ( scale type ) of sequence . There are some situations where the 4th fingers excels ( fast arpeggios , 2-4 trills or thirds, 5 -4 in chromatic octaves or in upper phrasing with mixed white and black notes ) . Liszt wrote specific exercices to use any finger in all situations including 4th and thumb so why wouldn’t we ? At the end of the day every hand is different so it’s depends on anyone morphology. I know Chopin wasn’t a fan of using the 4th but Liszt changed that view imho .
For Turkish March would you start on the 4th finger or would you change it and how would you change it?
Maybe 3,1,2,1,3?
@@BreadBoi-0 that could work. Thank you
@@montgomery4546 i still use 4 though
@@montgomery4546 probs 2,1,2,1,3 wpuld be beyyer
another great video, thank you! btw i love your bloopers :)
My wrists are always tense and I can't play for more than an hour at a time because my back starts to hurt. Do you have any advice on relaxing the wrists to improve playing?
If you don't already have one, get a teacher. Don't push into the piano, let gravity do most of the work and kinda let your fingers sink in. Best advice: teacher
Mila, are you playing a digital piano or an acoustic piano? I find with digital pianos the velocity sensitive mechanism encourages tension in the wrists and shoulders. Acoustic pianos are force sensitive rather than velocity sensitive so the weight of your arms is used in a different way. I wish I could get a real piano into my music room!
Teacher and until then check out Anniques posture video th-cam.com/video/SC6k_XpWH2k/w-d-xo.html
Exercise (stretching) and good posture.
I have a strong dilema: how will I know when should I stop using my 4th finger just to get it stronger, to practice his obedience (for voiceing, independence and flexibility), and start overprotecting it on purpose, so that I could learn faster? If you don't use it, you lose it, but in the same time, if you force it, you break it. So how to identify that ballance point between the two extremes? At least at the begining you must practice your finger independence in order to build it. So your advice is for someone more advanced. My question is how advanced should one be to start avoiding the 4th finger?
I have a very satisfing obedient 4th finger on my left hand, but my right one is in its own cathegory, no idea how to "fix it". I feel like it needs some special practice of some kind, as if I will never be a complete pianist unless I get to master it or at least unlink it a bit from his neibours, please help! And thank you!❤🤗
I think you need to read George A. Kochevitsky book, "The Art of Piano Playing: A Scientific Approach" (The Art of Series) Nov 16, 1995 on piano playing. It's in the brain, not the fingers.
@@JoeLinux2000 well yes, I do. I have a severe brain trauma btw. No idea if it affected only my right foot or also my 4th right finger, since the parts of the brain are very close and it happend probably when I was born. No neurologist was able to answer my question. So I practice, hopeing it helps.
Can tackle Hanon Exercises?
interesting :) For me the problem of the 4th finger is really there in, for example, the Chopin etude opus 25 n11. How do you handle that when it comes to very large position of the hand , for example in your amazing video opus 10 & 25 live rehearsal, at exactly 1:10:43? For that kind of sequence the hand is in large position, you simply can't avoid the 4th finger and it's quite hard to control / lift it up. How do you handle the 4th finger problem in that kind of context?
I use my fourth finger a lot.
If someday I loss a random finger all the other ones will be ready and trained.
When you're a medical student studying anatomy and decide to take a study break with a Video from Heart of the Keys, but then Anique decides to bring anatomy into the video.
i agree with a lot of stuff, but at 8:59, for example, you use 3-3, which makes no sense. by using the same finger twice in a row you are contradicting yourself when you say that "using less the 4th finger supports the movements". when you use the same finger you have to reposition your entire hand, creating a unnatural movement and neglecting finger legato, which is really important. also, i think that if using the 4th creates a more natural movement and the possibility to do finger legato, then it's use is absolutely justifiable. but that's just my opinion.
I agree with. I too think that there arent strict "rules" just "guidelines". There is some kind of consensus on how to play (like fingering of scales etc) but the rest highly depends on your hand size/shape and what you have already practiced and what feels comfortable. I often have to "break" lots of rules because I cant always use recommended fingerings (got a small hand 😬 you learn to get used to it😉)
Annique posted a couple of more videos about this topic and I think if you watch them you will get a better understanding of how to choose your fingering fitting to your hand
I'm with you on this. That 3-3 legato transition was supported by the pedal and I reckon most mere mortals (myself included) don't have the pedal control to make that a better legato than if they had just used the fourth finger... Also, the same thing with the thumb and whole hand movements. In both cases, I think most pianists would save energy by using their fourth finger rather than trying to burn it with additional whole hand movements or using the pedal (which might also affect the harmony). But I'm still going to give some of Annique's ideas a try! :)
I apparently never made it far enough playing piano when I was young. I've never seen a score with suggested fingerings. Is this common with complex pieces?