There were definitely some points where Destiny COULD have pushed back, but he let a lot slide. I actually think this convo was slightly irresponsible of him tbh
@@carlosallison8955 when you find yourself mostly agreeing with Sargon of Akkad about women’s roles in relationships and broader society, maybe some introspection is required. I think destiny has become a little un-self aware at times tbh
When a driving reason you disagree with something is the source of an idea, rather than an actual critique of the idea, I feel you need a bit more introspection. I say that as someone who both agreed with Destiny on his four reasons, and agree with Sargon that there are downstream impacts on culture promoting a no-consequences idea of do whatever you want sexually.
I'm digging the hell out of these somewhat chill discussions/debates. I'm all for disagreement and different opinions but I just can't handle the constant passive aggressiveness, name-calling, sarcasm, and straw man nonsense that seems to permeate the debate bro environment.
@@trivialcomment8354 I'm a fan of Sargon, and I find these conversations much more interesting than the constant debate me bro bs. This was a nice change.
I think destiny is finally realizing he doesn't need to be a debate bro anymore to get views. A lot of his current viewership kind of despise the debate bro stuff now that Destiny has shown he doesn't need it to have a conversation His old justification for it was that it brought in views and caused discourse where there wouldn't be any. Think things are finally moving on though
@@TNTspaz I'd like to think things are moving on through, but we'll see. I never watched much of Destiny, but when I saw he wasn't as fanatical as the bread tube types, I thought he was at least worth giving a listen.
Just wanna say that I like when the thumbnails and titles aren't the cringey exaggerated faces with clickbait capital titles. Makes your content match what's being watched. I know it's to game the algorithm but I think it's better this way.
A big part of this is that nowadays a lot more women are getting degrees and jobs that can provide for them economically so the "standard" of men being marriage material for having a career has just become a baseline of being a member of society at all.
@socially unacceptable im pretty sure marriage is originally about love, but for as long as humans have existed elites in society use it as a bargaining tool
@@KaptajnKaffe it’s so much more relaxing to see two people on separate sides just have a chill conversation. There’s so much more good faith and and moderation happening and you can actively see the other size actually take the other point into consideration. I’m probably a hard leftest, but seeing this happen just feels so refreshing.
This is why I like Destiny. He didn’t have Carl on just to treat him like an idiot and dunk on him like Vaush does with everyone he has on that he disagrees with. This is just two men having a productive, engaging conversation about something they disagree on in several ways but are mature enough to talk about in a civilized manner that isn’t painful to listen to. That’s why I’m convinced so many of these other streamers are just in it for the dopamine rush of dunking on someone in front of a hoard of sycophantic fans and don’t actually give a damn about anything they claim to stand for.
@@whatsgood6440 Making someone look foolish at an argument is not as good. Vaush accepted a debate with Sargon and when he was called on to debate he said that he was going to bed. Sargon sucks but Vaush did not want to debate with Sargon on should Socialist content creators help people.
@@humanoid8344 Don't buy it, he's just putting on a face for this particular interview to get that reaction. Sargon is very much in the "the election was stolen" camp and is promoting far right European politicians on his channel.
@@ThenDarknessFalls Thanks for being accidentally left wing, but no, I actually don't think he's reasonable. Someone who's been propping up and gritting off the lie for months that the election was stolen that led to 5 people dying trying to take over the Capitol and has led to about 30% of people in this country trying to make voting harder isn't "reasonable" to me. Maybe he speaks to you because you don't get laid or something and the conversation about women's body count is super important to you but I actually care about the important shit.
Imagine being locked into the alpha/beta ubermensch/untermensch dichotomy. PepeLaugh I'm pretty post-modern in enjoying critiquing categories. Sigma is counter-signal and I couldn't stop being contrary if I tried.
I mean Sargon was always a pretty relaxed guy. I feel like a lot of Destiny’s camp would inflate him with people like “No-bullshit” or “Naked Ape”. The first time they talked destiny had a nuclear melt down and start flailing around then Dmca’d a set of clips Sargon made of him contradicting himself.
Damn, I haven't seen Carl in a good while, and just found out who Destiny is very recently. I appreciate seeing this kind of calm discourse between people with opposing views, we need more of this.
Destiny didn't go hard enough on him. He was giving too much ground to him in my view. Sargon made vague garbage points, as he always does, and Destiny missed a lot of opportunities to repudiate them.
@@peterpehlivan157 yeah like whenever Sargon mentions 'pillars of civilization' you know he needs to be probed deeper as it could easily just be a cover for ethnonationalism
@@BDKoala Yeah, exactly. Or how China is going to outbreed us. Total bullshit, the reason why they lifted the that one child policy is that their birthrate has been declining recently like every rich place. And that "REALITY says most women have to be trad wives." Or "NATURE incentivizes women not to [be promiscuous], but FeMiNiSm incentivizes them otherwise" (??????) Fucking yikes.
@Pike Man OK you think my comment was a stretch but somehow seemed to pickup a ethnonationalist talking point espoused by Sargon that if we let in too many brownies the culture will be irredeeambly changed. The problem is, no one here (out of major political parties) is proposing mass migration on that scale as it would destroy social services, infrastructure, Healthcare etc. That's why most countries have a cap or keep net migration to a sustainable level, so your hypothetical is not even realistic. And the thing about culture is that it is always changing/transforming, it's not necessarily a bad thing.
i can't tell if i just live in a separate universe to the one sargon and coach red pill are in, but i feel like all of these complaints they have about the modern women are entirely invented and a product of spending 24 hours a day online and not interacting with actual real life women. most women do not in fact have an only fans account, and, in my experience, dress reasonably modestly, make an effort to appear attractive and aren't raging SJWs. beauty standards are more pernicious than they have ever been. like, please, where is this magical place where women don't give a fuck about appearing attractive and just exist comfortably in their own skin without constantly feeling as though they are an object being looked at bc i wanna live there
You can destroy almost all of these red pill types by simply asking for statistics or studies. They literally have no statistical evidence that beauty standards are becoming more lax nor causational studies proving promiscuity causes all the bad things they state.
@Pike Man it doesn't technically exist, because a woman who doesn't wear make up, pretty herself up, etc., will be looked upon unfavorably as a dating partner by most men. A lot of jobs, espescially in media, sometimes require use of makeup. You're assuming how I operate just to have the feeling youve got some sort of gotcha, which is very funny. However, I don't care much for what I'm wearing, and don't try to buy stuff just to fit with the group. That being said, I'd never want to walk around with breath that smelled like a dead animal, not having showered for weeks, completely naked, or with shit in my pants; I think it's fair to not want those specific things in public, but they are extremes for why it's not technically true you can do whatever you want and still have the normal human experience. You have to somewhat engage in the social game of life if you want to get through it normally.
God it's crazy how uncharitable so many of the people in the chat are. Sargon: "This woman is *my* woman. She is special *to me,* and no one else." Chat: "Heaven forbid you don't get to own a woman!" Yeah, okay. He definitely wasn't referring about the exclusivity inherent to monogamous relationships and the feeling that produces in people, *both* people, where they feel special and possessive of their partner, and often refer to their partner endearingly as, "my woman"/"my man".
Destiny: "Men aren't living up to their tradcon standards, they should work on themselves and fulfill their duty to civilization" Sargon: "I agree and I'm willing to beat them with a stick until they do meet those standards, but women need to meet some standards as well" Destiny: "Well I think culture has changed"
Not only did he deflect, he deflected with such an irrelevant point. So fucking what if culture has changed and we're more accepting of nerds? That was an unreasonable standard in the first place. The only reason women wouldn't touch nerds with a 10ft pole is because of reasons like, "my friends would laugh at me," or "that stuff is weird". How many unreasonable standards does the average man have? Sargon's characterisation was more about the monster energy and the hunchback and whatever, not the mere fact that lots of guys play video games.
Well that's not what Destiny said. His point is that you shouldn't expect to attract people that are out of your league. Society has changed and you also shouldn't beat people with a stick so they are forced to suit your dated ideology.
@@TheRedHaze3 He didnt deflect. He made the same point. Men don't have to suit dated ideologies such as not being nerds. The same way women don't. However, if you want to attract people who adhere to these dated ideologies, you have to yourself.
Yeah you totally missed the point on this. Destiny said that if you want a trad wife you need to actually be a trad man. Meet the standards you invoke on the other sex. You shouldn't be sniping at women from the shadows and odor of your cave made of stiffened socks.
Sargon identifies material issues (birth rate, increased monetisation of all human interactions) and ignores all material factors that might have contributed to these things emerging, preferring to restate disgust mantras about niche cultures he dislikes.
@@TheNoodleGod9001 most social conservatism is about disgust. It's like he thinks prostitution didn't exist before contemporary "leftist" culture. He totally fails to account for the possibility that (to some extent) prior ways of living (that will be upheld as traditional) may have themselves been shaped by material realities of the day, instead of being some incontrovertible internal truth about attractiveness and desire.
There is quite a lot of psychological evidence that people (men or women) with many sexual partners have a lot more problems making long term connections/relationships. I know what you mean, it does seem like Sargon is like that, but there is evidence to show why having an aversion to promiscuousness, especially if you are looking to have a LTR, is good from that perspective
@@basedcentrist3056 I don't doubt that at all. I just don't think increasing levels of promiscuity that we observe are due to leftist cultural influence. I think two points worth considering: 1: people's lives respond to and are shaped by thier material reality to a vast degree- cultural artefacts of this are possibly symptoms. 2: How much do we want to trust historic data on levels of promiscuity? It might be accurate for the 1950s, but over hundreds of years? It's easy to assert a "way it used to be" that feels right, but often it's very nebulous.
I don't understand why Sargon believes that women are holding men to a unfair deal (I'm halfway thru the video btw). It sounds like he's saying that there is stock in women being held to a traditional standard but he isn't explaining in depth why that traditional standard has merit......everything seems to be boiling down to preference (at least in the way he is framing it).
@Schino Schina ok, I'll explain the trad wife thing (my gf wants to be one. I don't though, because I find it unfair to me). The argument with cooking and cleaning is: If you want to be a stay at home mom, that raises the kids, fine. But then also prepare the food, clean the house, maybe iron the shirts. Because in kind the husband is soley responsible for keeping the budget afloat by working his ass off. Its a give and take. If you don't like that deal, don't be a trad wife. Vive versa, if you want to have a strong dominating husband who makes more money (trad husband), do the dishes, aso (trad wife)
@@anchess2517 men are held to a traditional standard because I feel like alot of men hold men and want to be held to a traditional standard. Maybe what I see is localized to my social media browsing but the posts I see about "being a real man" and "traditional standards" ..the majority of them are made by men and some of them are definitely made by women. This seems to be a internal problem when I look at it. How can we expect women to not hold us to something that we are enforcing amongst ourselves?
@@jidmoore10 Women want a guy who earns more money than them even though woman are out earning men in a lot of different areas. Women want a guy to be traditionally masculine-dominant assertive confident. Women want a guy who is taller than them and stronger than them. There are all traditional characteristics women want in men. That's why I said men are held to a traditional standard but women pick and choose when to be traditional or modern. If I am being traditional and ask her to cook or clean, she replies"I am a modern woman" and when I ask her to pay the bills, she replies " Oh that's you job as a man".
Also there are many men telling men "how to be men" because nobody teaches boys how to be men. In the US a good percent of boys are brought up in single mother household, have no masculine role model in school/college and then the women expect them to be masculine.
Unpopular Opinion: I don't want to be in the bottom 10% of men, I'm cool with being a clean, self-improving, financially stable ordinary/average joe. I stay presentable but I'll never try to impress a woman.
Be specific what incel opinions do you mean. Sargon specifically went after incels saying they are whiny and entitled blaming women for their problems.
I can't believe this comment. Go into any tech company and ask many guys are single. It's over half. Tons of tech guys are educated, well paid, and in shape. They just can't talk to women.
@@hijumper75 'They just can't talk to women' why? Do they have social anxiety issues or afraid of rejection? It's not that difficult to socialize, unless you're pent up in the suburbs.
@@carl8790 Everyone has different reasons, for some socializing may be as simple as breathing, but for others it can be terrifying. Even if you didn’t grow up in the burbs lol
As a traditional woman, my complaints weren't even like 'he plays too much video games'. It was stuff like, 'I want a husband that I can trust will be loyal to me', 'I want someone that has similar values(conservative Christian values)', 'I want a guy who will be a good father/wants a family'. You'd be surprised how many men will say straight out they aren't interested in marriage/settling down, or they just want hookups and crap, guys that just can't hold a conversation other than small talk bs. It was so discouraging because as a 19 yo girl looking for a partner, guys my age generally just aren't wanting the same things as me. I prefer older men anyway and my fiance is 7 years older, but many guys I met before him were creeps in like their 40s looking at a 19 YEAR OLD WTF. I'm so glad I'm not single anymore lol.
Yeah I think a good portion of that is the maturity difference between men and women at certain ages. My fiance is six years younger, she was 19 and I was 25. I think even a year before I wouldnt have been ready for that type of commitment. I know at 19 i was not in anyway ready for a serious longterm partner. Maybe at the time I thought I was but looking back I wasnt ready.
Norm on both sides unfortunately, most outward facing people aren't serious and most serious people are demotivated from engaging with the dating market due to the prevalence of bad actors. There is a massive rise in religiously traditional young men going on but those movements basically don't have young women at the moment, or at least not enough for all the guys who want to get married and start families.
I think a lot of people get mixed up whether or not someone is “rational“ or “not that bad” by whether the speaker’s tone was harsh and brash or calm and collected like Sargon was here. The problem with that is that Sargon is a civic nationalist, (civilizational duty for a woman to not sleep around) and (I’m assuming) a lot of these people would be disgusted if the same talking points came out of an incel who screamed about how women should be in the home and shouldn’t sleep around. It’s actually interesting how much tone matters and changes people’s perspectives, it’s like people don’t actually listen to the premises and conclusions but how those premises sound.
You hit the nail on the head. Literally what is occurring here. Sargon may not be yelling/super combative, but he's speaking crazy shit, and he has an entire viewable history of crazy shit he still believes/supports and hasn't changed on. The idea that he's "good faith" "rational" etc is literally all based on him just not being angry. I wish more people saw that.
You're completely right, however I prefer conversations to be done like this than screamed at each other over the smallest little detail that neither side will concede even though there are glaring issues with the argument as a whole. It would have been good to see more pushback on some things because obviously some things were taken for granted (like you mention, forcing women to be at home), but again, I'd rather the conversation be civil and stay away from useless personal attacks.
@@PlayaGuitar I would -typically- too, but when the persons arguments aren't substantive it's a bit ridiculous when civility is the case. Him letting stuff slide or being passive about it is what let it be chill. Previous convos he's had with sargon usually go in the direction you speak of because destiny didn't let him slide by with crazy prescriptions. Plus, it's not like the civility thing is a fault of the other speakers either. Destiny definitely has yelled over some passive people especially recently. Honestly I think the whole thing bugs me so much because Sargon and Lauren Southern are huge as fuck and have done a lot to add to the awfulness of the current political landscape. Seeing them approached so passively by destiny, who I thought cared the most about truth and butting conspiracy really fucks with me. These people are genuinely scum, and have more effect on the world/have had effect.
@@Mincheesy do you think destiny has a better chance of convincing Sargon fans that he's wrong by yelling at him or by offering another perspective in a kind way? I don't think you win people over by offending them, even if you're right.
@@PlayaGuitar see I accept that argument, BUT it feels like it's also making destiny fans swing towards acceptance of sargon/southerns, which is scary as fuck to me, and I imagine it could be aided by the lefty Arc shit. Plus destiny has won over people with aggressiveness/confidence to these individuals in the past. Ide even say I'm one of them who, with the way destiny used to debate, was heavily swung away from the right I was already teetering on.
41:00 destiny deflected hard. Sargon said why is it that when men are criticised to meet a certain standard it’s perfectly socially acceptable but absolutely abhorrent when you hold woman to any standard and critique them. You got no reasonable answer for that because this absolutely is a problem.
@Tight n Nerdy Nah, look around you with body positivity etc. They now even get a pass for being outright obese. They're one hashtag away from a subculture of anti health enablers.
@Tight n Nerdy or it rejected valid beauty standards and critiques to obesity towards woman, which are also there for men. Another avenue which they get a pass on. No standard to live up to, they are perfect for having being born with a vagina and immune to any criticism. I urge you to find a popular influencer who tells fat men they are beautiful and perfect the way they are. You’ll have a hard time finding any. That’s not because men aren’t ‘held to the same standard’. It’s because fat men realise they have a problem and don’t peddle this bullshit, nor does society enable them to indulge in this type of toxic thinking.
@@toothacheforever8437 Its because women have been held to an insane beauty standard for forever and have had to deal with the toxicity that comes with that. So people are trying to be very mindful when it comes to women in particular because of how much the toxic beauty standards have hurt them.
@GingerGuitarist If you do not realize that historically beauty standards have been much more harmful for women then I don't know what to tell you. Men being more horny then women has nothing to do with beauty standards. Women have struggled with this and in turn are more mindful to each other when talking about appearances. How is that a bad thing.
This conversation lowered my blood pressure It’s insane seeing two people in 2021 having a reasonable conversation and being able to comprehend both sides.
People will do whatever they need to, to attract a greater audience. TH-cam has evolved. If youtube was the same as 2017 Sargon would still be going after feminists and easy SJW targets/
I’d say that Sargon’s tone has changed, but his views are still pretty gross! Just cause this is a chill convo, we shouldn’t turn the critical side of our brains off!
@@bgoodnow Yeah this is insane lol, he's being very polite but effectively saying that women who have sex have debased themselves in some way. Ignoring the fact that the men complaining about how slutty women are also want to fuck when they're young! It's quite misogynistic even by MRA standards imo
Heads up, right winger here. Subscribed to you because of your late activity and the debate you had with Sargon. You seem to be most reasonable left wing voice out there so to break the own personal echo chamber I thought I should subscribe to you for seeing other view points.
Long term Destiny fan here also on right. Sometimes I rage on his most lefty takes but I still love to watch his debates. He's more tolerable than ppl like Vaush that's for sure.
@@MultiAsdag yeah i used to be subscribed to lot of left wingers in past, but then they started to make outright lies since their attitude was that end justifies the means. I couldn't see them as good source of honest information after it.
I used to be very left leaning and destiny is the one who brought me close to the center. I used to listen to hard-core lefties alot but nowadays I stick with left leaning centrists like eristocracy. So yeah, Destiny defo helped me break my echo chamber except it's the opposite way from you lol
@@arinkang179 Well I never really was in echo chamber. I always challenged myself. I just wanted to find some left wing youtuber who isn't dishonest so I could actually see rational arguments and evidence for their cases. You never know if you hear something new.
with the body count thing, I just want someone whose similar to me and has interest in similar experiences. like I want a girl into indie music and hiking just as much as I want a girl who has similar sexual desires to me.
The reason for body count is that it implies that she has no capability to restrict herself. Which means that she will end up cheating on you and can even have some STDs. This same applies to guys as well. The reason why social norms are more against women acting like that is because no one wants to raise another man's child.
@@Tespri this isn't true at all plus it's only/mostly women who get shamed for this shit and also "nobody wants to raise another mans child" but everybody wants to raise another woman's child? why is it so disgusting to raise another ones for men? i don't understand this stupid double standard
@@tomtom0157 No, I'm absolutely correct. People who study human behavior, history and even biology knows this for fact. It literally comes down to that no man wants to raise up another man's child. There is good evolutionary reasons for it. "why is it so disgusting to raise another ones for men?" Simple logic, every biological species and life forms seeks to reproduce, few exceptions are mentally ill humans. Raising another man's child while thinking that it's your own is evolutionary dead sentence for the guy. Thus from evolutionary standpoint guys benefit for not raising another man's child. It's not double standards since we aren't the same thus same rules don't apply. Also women only have breed with men they consider strongest/influential in their circles. Woman having breed with another man would demean the man and emasculate his self-worth. While men by their nature desire to have as many babies as possible thus having multiple wives or sex patterns is beneficial for them in evolutionary sense. Same time it's not as demeaning for his partner for same reason. Men seek to increase number of offsprings while women seek to only to chase the quality of mate and provider. Seems like you reported my previous comment so now it's hidden. Typical far left winger. Can't even be intellectually honest.
As a tip for the future, if Destiny wants to bring up birth rates and all that in this kind of debate he should read up on the sociological research, just to be able to support his arguments better. It is a well established fact that the only way you can "force" women to have more children is to ban them from receiving education. On the point Sargon made about Denmark's birth rate, as a foreigner living here I keep getting surprised that a lot of families have at least 2-3 kids, and a bunch of people I know have like over 5 other siblings. In a standard marriage situation a family will likely have up to or around 3 kids, anything beyond that would usually involve remarriages or having new partners. As a rando on the internet, in my opinion, big factors that help maintain the high birth rate are good social security, free education, strong economy, healthcare. Their healthcare can be super rad. So these are the intuitive points other countries can aim for.
Government handouts aren't necessary to maintain a high birth rate. The most important factor that influences whether or not to have children is the cost of living. Also, it's not "free" education since people are still paying for it via higher taxation.
Lol wut. Correlation =/= causation. Sociological research shows that a main reason higher educated women have less children is because they have a career and either have no time to raise children or find it too expensive to both work and pay for childcare, nannies or whatever. Which is why they're having children when they're older and more financially secure. Women with less education often have a spouse that looks after them so they can stay home and raise their kids. I.e traditional type of family unit, which is often seen in immigrant/migrant/refugee families and in developing nations. Note that these nations and family units are often economically poorer. The expectation is their kids will get an education, have a good paying job which will help the family out of poverty.
@@3112-x9r you know you destroy the word "free" from the english language the way youre using it right? Literally nothing is free if we are pedantic af.
@@Manolara1 don't you think that it's their only way in life to find a spouse that earns enough to support the woman and their children, it's not like she has a degree in anything and it's not like she can get any job that would be paying enough to provide for her family if she happens to have one. The lack of time may be true for murica, cuz people have to work multiple jobs. Here people have one job, work till 6 pm and then have enough time to go out or drive their children to play dates or whatever else. Have you ever looked at the research outside your country? The entire "third world" has this issue of high birthrate that hinges on women not having access to school and sex education.
Destiny is so weird. He likes to pretend that he is so distant emotionally from internet stuff and it doesn't affect him like any normal person, yet he gets pissed off by lefties on the internet
@@shadow50HD could I also get a clarification on centrist and alt right? Those seem to me like starkly different things. Are you socially alt right and economically centrist?
Sex does have a certain unique sanctity to it. If someone is raped, for example, that violation takes on a whole deeper dimension than being knocked out.
I don’t think we have any obligation to have children. Not everyone is fit to be a parent, and forcing/pushing/bullying people into having them just causes more suffering- for the parents who hate it and the children with bad parents. If you actually want people to have children, you need to financially incentivise it. Children are a huge financial hit for most people, and it’s a large factor in why people are delaying/forgoing families. Also, what’s wrong with furry conventions? They’re just people in cute costumes hanging out. The boomer republicans pushed marriage and they also pushed “I hate my wife” jokes.
He ignores the fact that things changed, because obviously people weren't happy with the way they were. He also would never talk about the financial constraints people have now, that they didn't have back when they were having a lot of kids. And no secure man cares if his wife makes more money than he does.
Certainly incentivicing childraising by use of finances and taxbreaks seems an entirely laudible goal. And it is true you cant force people to have kids (or at least you really shouldnt) But do humans have a responsibility to continue humanity? If no, why not? Why the nihilism? Humanity is pretty great. What would the universe be without us? Cold and empty and with nobody there to see it, proparbly. I'd rather have a kid that can fly to mars when he's big, thank you. (Also the issue with furries is that there's way too many creepy people in the fandom, with zoophiles and pedophiles being scarily common. Maybe the perception would be better if they self-regulated a bit more)
@@mrvoltem9379 I don’t think it matters whether humans exist or not. And if it does, then why should it be my responsibility? I didn’t ask to be here, I didn’t sign a form before I was born accepting the terms and conditions of life. I was thrust unwillingly into a quite frankly terrifying and morbid world. I don’t have a responsibility to anyone to continue anything.
@@mrvoltem9379 And to say I owe it to my ancestors to continue it forward, thats like force feeding someone a plate of food that gives them food poisoning, then saying “I fed you, now you owe it to me to give me your entire life savings”
@@michaeljackson8390 Anyone that uses that many emojis is not to be trusted. I'm usually not one to asrcibe labels to people. But imma go ahead and call THOT or Bot
@@nandi.handrews1502 As bad as gambling can be for individuals and society as a whole as a libertarian I have to agree. If idiots willingly separate themselves from their money thats on them
This is why I just cannot endorse the conservative/trad take on gender roles: Because at its core, and it's obvious from Sargon always fucking returning to that "sacred" nonsense, it is a prescription how to behave, whereas at the core of the progressive take on gender roles (even if we acknowledge that some people take deconstruction maybe too far), it's that people can do whatever they feel/think is right for them. That's why Sargon cannot just agree that trad lifestyles can be followed in a liberal society just like any other and be done with the conversation, because he HAS to prescribe his idea to everyone else.
@Arwyn also I'm fairly certain that the average person would be happier in a LOVING committed relationship rather than just shagging everything that moves, and I mean both sexes btw
@@rhyspalmer58 and part of being in a loving commited relationship is finding out what works best for you and your partner, and sometimes that doesn't look like a traditional relationship that Sargon would want basically the entirety of society to subject themselves to.
But his prescription isn’t a call for mandate, just like he said at 1:17:00 He simply advocates the prescriptions because people will be happier that way, but ultimately people have to choose to change their lifestyles. That is the Classically Liberal view: there is a right answer to things, but it is up to you to follow it
This conversation was OK, but I do not understand why Sargon has to use so much morally loaded, demeaning and misogynistic language like calling women who are sexually loose “slags”. It just poisons so much of the message in an otherwise quite nuanced discussion.
Depends on your Moral standings concerning those things. If you find it Abhorrent to be sexually loose then you are going to use demeaning language. If you hold the opposite, you will empower them with your language. There ARE nuanced takes to the things he said, He just doesnt care about the optics in that area, since his audience generally holds conservative beliefs.
For the sexual thing (women being innocent for the man): I feel a big part of the issue too is that the man does not have to meet these standards. More of the pressure is put on the women to remain abstinent... idk this has so many layers
I think they make an interesting point that it really was a biological issue before contraceptives we’re invented. Finding the right balance where we can fix the double standard yet understand what’s generally healthy to teach our kids about dating is something that’s naturally gonna take some time to sus out. It has a lot of layers like you mention
Yes. But this double standards only exists because it is easy for most women to get laid, but difficult for most men. You don't have to rationalize it with some complex oppression narrative in order to feed you narcissism.
@@hughmungous3357 perhaps, but that doesn't make it narcissistic... both sides have issues. You can't just blame women. Not everything is about getting laid. Maybe part of the issue is people like you just thinking about sex, huh? Did you miss that part???
@@shadez123 just because "virgin" has become some weird insult for men doesn't justify shaming women for not holding their "purity" for men. That's freaking weird
I haven't seen any grandma with arms like that. But why show of? Simple, he has changed and is proud about positive change that he had gained since he started dieting and working out. Why being so hostile over someone being happy over their own life improvement?
@A Friendly Reminder educated guess. Video about Sargon and Destiny. Either you're sargon's suscriber in which case you wouldn't be insulting him. Or you're far leftists.
@A Friendly Reminder Do you even comprehend what word educated guess means? Let's put it this way... The likelihood of you being far leftie is far higher than right winger. On basis of the channel, video and the comment you had made.
I don’t trust Sargon, but at least he isn’t CRP. That’s definitely a plus, but that aside, he’s also pandered way too much to reactionary sentiment, political apologia and even COVIDiocy during a very serious global issue. He ought to know better, but whatever. What was hilarious was that Short Fat Otaku was desperately trying to promote him as some reasonable voice in the chat and constantly whining about negativity when people would point out his and Sargon’s past follies. He even said that he likes SocDems, but that Leftists are just like Fascists. Yet every time SocDem ideas are proposed, he and his ilk whine about it all being Marxist subversion. He probably also considers insidiously dishonest and scientifically illiterate pundits like Candace Owens to be “decent people in the centre”. Clearly a very fat in the head Otaku.
@@ShortFatOtaku Right ... So ... You didn't say that leftists are like fascists, or that every time you were challenged on past opinions by either yourself or Sargon, you complained about cope or some other sad nonsense like that?
@@ShortFatOtaku Could you please define an ordinary average conservative as Sargon is? Could you also confirm if Candace Owens falls into the same category, and why?
He deleted his comment berating my comment for mischaracterising him entirely. What a shame. We were about to have a fruitful discussion in the free marketplace of ideas and see the factually sound arguments prevail. You know, like how leftists are more or less like fascists and like alt leftists and alt righters.
@@ShortFatOtaku Yeah, okay, TH-cam's oppressing you. I've already got some questions up there for you, "bruh". How about you take a crack at them. Perhaps there is substance to what you're saying.
I haven’t heard the man in years, but the fact Sargon actually had an honest and productive discussion with you blows my mind… this was surprisingly easy listening lmfao
Reduction in children per Household is very closely related to living standards, its simply, that in poorer area's/country's, more children are born because of child mortality. 6, 7 , 8 children families are a result of high mortality in children.
Man his generalisations just don't fit with what I've seen as a Christian. There are very few men in the church, there are lots of women. These are trad women who wan no sex before marriage, many wan to raise a family, many are against drugs, drinking and promiscuity and in England there are way more women who want that then men. Its very difficult for a women who wants no sex before marriage to find any intimacy from men at all as many men assume if they have romantic connections with a women it has to have sex. So I just feel like sargon has got it the wrong way round. If sargon wants this world he needs to talk to men more then women.
"women shouldn't be promiscuous because it makes them less desirable to men" It makes them less desirable to a certain type of man, and to be honest if that means there's less of those men having kids and continuing their arcaic world view then that's a good thing. The vast majority of men aren't so unbelievably insecure that they worry about who their partner has had sex with in the past.
Who said it has to do with insecurity? Religious people still exist you know. And even still, if I’ve saved myself for my wife, then I would expect the same of her. It’s only fair.
How about women aren’t subject to men’s expectations of them. Women don’t need to live lives based on the prospect of maybe finding a man. This shit is dumb lol.
@@fedea82 I agree people want relationships and sex. It’s childish and ignorant to think there is a secret formula or technique to getting either. This is dumb because it’s so niche and devoid of actual lived experience. Just a bunch of immature guys looking for some authority to spell out how to work their way into sex, regardless of the women or their wants
This video makes me want Sargon to move more towards the left, surprisingly interesting and a lot of agreeable conversation. Being able to settle on a reasonable middle ground with Destiny on surprisingly understandable positions is enjoyable. More content with him if this continues!
Destiny, all of the men your women had before you surely remembers them fondly, and compares your bad sides to their good sides. And stop talking about sex like it's building a rocket engine. All you need is a handful of times and you've got 90% of it. I would take a girl with no experience any day over an experienced acrobat. Here is your litmus test - fall in love with a girl, and date her. Before you propose to her, have her recount all of her sexual experiences in great detail, the sinking feeling in your stomach will tell you that you have been deeply betrayed and what she has done is horrific. Sex is an evolutionary mechanism used for bonding. Bonding and un-bonding over and over lessens the quality of the bonding mechanism. One of the reasons so many marriages fail is precisely because they bond biologically and mistaken that for love. It is imperative not to have sex before being sure that you like all of the other parts of the person, because in the long run, those are the things that matter.
Heard that Coach Red Pill was arrested by Ukrainians for being a spy on behalf of Russia and remembered the beef between Sargon and Coach. Ah memories!
A lot of the social norms are norms for a reason. Part of growing up is challenging them and sometimes being contrarian towards them. In the end, I find most people settle in to what feels right for them and adopt many (but maybe not all) of the norms. I think this is how norms evolve. I think it's odd to vehemently defend norms because they sort of defend themselves.
I'm an hour into this and I still don't see what point they're trying to make. It sounds a lot like Sargon thinks women should stay virgins and be as pretty and traditional as possible and try to snag themselves a man, like a regioncy era romance novel, until they hit 25, at which point they become old maids and should get a job in childcare or just devote themselves to taking care of their parents.
An interesting conversation that would be cool to see is addressing this argument with the exceptions, such as feminine men or masculine women that are willing to contribute to create a functional relationship but not exactly in the traditional way. I feel like a lot of where the LGBT community is coming from is that they want to break these expectations because these expectations just cannot work for them. Something in their brain just cannot identify with being "the pretty one" or "The strong one", yet the attraction towards the other remains nonetheless. The impression I get a lot of the time with incels is that they DO identify with their expectations, but they just aren't willing to meet it because of really unhealthy mindsets, disorders or borderline misogyny that they can't even recognize.
The inherent nature of exceptions/outliers is THAT they are exceptions/outliers. As in, they don't fit into the discussion about the majority. So obviously they wouldn't be discussed.
@@CorwinTheOneAndOnly Agreed. That's why I posed it as a separate conversation instead of a point on this one. I just think that a lot of the movement Sargon is disagreeing with ARE those exceptions. Plus, i'm just saying it would be an interesting interaction. It may very well be he recognizes that there are outliers and agrees with Destiny, but he seems to have other contentions with LGBT so i'm not taking that position for granted.
the exception you're talking about isn't really an exception at all. When the study about how children tend to grow up better in 2 parent households was presented to me. I think about the emotional support from the mother (presented as feminine) and the sense of responsibility and tough love (presented as masculine). Both are opposing aspects but having both are important to helping a child navigate the world when they enter adulthood. Of course there are other benefits like sharing the workload, dual income household but you're mostly talking about the nurturing aspect here. Also have you asked yourself how much you've used the word incel to degrade people? if you do overdo it, you're no better than the incels idealizing virgin girls and doing what young people call 'slut shaming'. Not accusing you but only you know yourself if you fit into this unhealthy mindset i'm suspecting you're having.
Role reversal is mental disturbing but opposite still a thing. A lot of norms are being questioned and what is considered new is really what has happened to re-enforce the current norm. You could have the biological woman do all the things we task to men but women themselves are not going in that direction. While it may seem they are with the rise of independence but really it falls back to the norms.
it's a bit frustrating that Destiny didn't point out how Sargon kept assuming his traditional views of reality are just human nature and should apply to everyone. Sargon saying "it seems reality is X" then just stating some ridiculous ancient conservative viewpoint. Then destiny is like "if you see things that way, the optimal behavior is X" instead of "dude, please justify WHY you see things that way, because I seriously doubt you can justify that." Destiny needed to keep saying "Yes, if you have YOUR views, but i'd argue thinking woman have some duty not to be sluts, is just a hangup you have that you need to get over." Destiny was awful nice during this discussion. Are his view counts down or something? weird.
"women marry up and men marry down" actually this depends on the culture. sargon is english & in england we tend to marry someone who earns about the same as us. "hypergamy" is not a natural or universal thing. also so weird to me he is obsessed with women's sexual purity but still married a woman with a kid...
That's true in the US, too. Virtually everyone marries someone similar age, economic status/ tax bracket, education level & race. There is a lot of data on this and once you read it, you realize how ridiculous most "hypergamy" discussions are. Some men seem to think that most women are trying to get pg by footballers. There may be a few high profile examples, but dramatic hypergamy like that is rare. Most women marry a man who earns slightly more simply bc women earn ~70% of what men do
The exception doesn't make the rule. Also just because she has a kid doesn't mean she was Wilding out. Regardless of that as he already said a majority of guys will more than happily bang the hot OF girls but they arnt going to marry them.
@@edwardrichard8093 lol so is there a set amount of guys a woman can fuck or is it case by case? this might shock you, but the vast majority of married men married women who had sex before. unless you are v young it's going to be a mission to find a virgin
i have a hard time when i hear them talking about "INCELs" being the 300 lbs 5'10" guy when one of the biggest incidents in Canada was a guy with a successful career and a car (maybe a condo) running down people with a van and Destiny is like "it's so easy to find women" but then your just gonna use the known results to justify that he was "obviously crazy". Also it took them like an hour to go from making at least 100k/year and being in the top 10% to making 35k/year (who are also less successful)
Incel is more about a mode of thinking and behaviors than any physical characteristics. There are some very conventionally attractive incels. Their main issues tend to be intense narcissism and a lack of socialization around women.
@@aleczitzelberger8123 kinda my point, the only people "commentators" like Destiny and Sargon refer to are the "neurotic losers" when you have middle income guys that still haven't had a relationship/sex and then it's "obviously something must be wrong with him"
Like what? I'm only a third in and so far sargon is being totally domesticated, he's not said anything wrong yet. What do u have in mind? I'll complete the video Edit: I'm at the end now, what has sargon "gotten away with"? This has actually been great chat where they fed off each other and made their positions more precise. This will also likely drag some of sargons audience here, though I don't think destiny has been disingenuous in any way. Great talk.
Sargon has always had issues with the super far right retard types. I can't remember the exact particulars of the situation, but CRP went out and told a bunch of lies about Sargon a couple years back when he was in conflict with alt righters.
@@justliving920 What lot of people don't realize due political fanaticism is that classical liberals (they are actually right wingers) and actual fascists are not the same thing. For example Jordan Peterson is liberal but left in general likes to paint him as far right. Something happened in past 10-years where suddenly being liberal started to mean being neo-nazi. Left wing suddenly became overly radicalized.
Yeah, the biggest problem is how people approach the issue. People usually view those sorts of things as important, or how it SHOULD be. So someone questioning them would come off as denying their view. It's also problematic like you said how people demonize each side.
It seems that personal reponsibility and honesty is lacking more and more in todays society, facing uncomfortable truth about onseself etc. Though the amount of vitriol online certainly isnt helping either. Worst thing is i dont know what i can do about it.
@@mrvoltem9379 I wouldn't say honesty is lacking, it's just morality is complicated. And people always take what they think correct as law essentially. Saying it isn't or changing that view would be in some cases people telling themselves they are bad. Especially depending how vocal they are about it and if they judged other people for it. They got on a ship and took off full speed assuming the ship to be impossible to sink.
His question of why men have these standards while also participating is a great one! I believe the reason is that men get to get-off to the modern women while not committing and it reinforces the mating strategy of males (to mate with as many women as they can), from a bio-essesntialist perspective. But when we apply the human idea of pair-bonding, then men are seeking paternity-verification so their resources are not wasted.
Very apt point. It teaches men they don't have to or need to commit to a vvoman. That it's acceptable to see them as nothing more than objects. I find it extremely backwards and regressive.
@@RextheRebel So if you don't want to commit, you're automatically looking at women like objects? What a strange take. And no, you don't have to commit if you don't want to, I thought we agreed hyper conservative traditions of forced marriage was wrong? Women aren't owed relationships from men.
Moving to the left and hearing Sargon years later is such a baffling thing to experience Really glad that he was incredibly reasonable though. I feel like conversations with like Vaush only paint him as unreasonable because of Vaush's own combative attitude
I was surprised to hear Sargon being so civil and honest. I think it’s more him going with the times and recognizing that diplomacy works better than combativeness. It could be insidious without someone as able to throw back against his rhetoric as Destiny. But as someone who came of age through all the political polarization, this kind of measured dialogue is all I wanted when I was younger. I was an early destiny fan, and I think he had a lot of impact tbh
Not having ever been dragged too far into the left OR right, I think that both of these guys are very reasonable to listen to, hence why it was such a good conversation. If you actually feel that way about listening to Sargon talk you should check your own biases, you might be slipping a little too far into the left.
I kinda miss economics being part of this discussion, people do not just have less kids because of personal choices like chosing career over kids, but i think more so due to a lack of good paying jobs and affordable housing. If you can't afford kids you are not gonna have them, i am a lefty and i would love having kids with my fiancee but we can't have kids in our tiny appartment.
Yeah, finances are proparbly the reason many people arent having kids. But then again, many people live in circumstances where they could spare some luxuries and then in turn afford to have kids. Should we not encourage people that kids are more valuable than a new sports car? (In your case i hope you or your fiancee are able to get a promotion so you can fulfill that dream, best of luck with that)
Meanwhile the poorest nations on earth have the highest birthrates. I think it's because westerners value their personal wealth way more than African or middle eastern nations.
Apart from that males that have many partners are not exactly treated well as well. We have a word for those kind of men. They are called douchebags. Not exactly the kind of people like.
@@CharlieApples Then you clearly have not been around other men. There is a difference between being able to get many women, and sleeping around. You are just going of sterotypes now and painting all men with a board brush. I should almost call you sexist for it.
It seems like Carl's fundamental mistake is assuming that "purity" as a measure of a women is or should be on par with "success" as a man, and there's really just no reason for that. A man evaluating a partner on financial stability, career success or personality compatibility makes FAR more sense than "body count". The dude also keeps using this weird medieval LARPer language too like "civilational duty" or "what nature hath bestowed upon women" as though some divine force ordained that his point makes sense.
Financial stability and career success are typically traits women look for in men. Men are mostly visual and go for looks and purity. Purity in the sense that if they have a kid they want to be sure it's biologically theirs, also the women with less partners are less likely to cheat.(sure there are some exceptions, but the exception is not the rule)
@@KingCrimeTime That's an appeal to tradition. You gave a series of statements on what some men value, what I was asking for are reasons why fewer previous partners SHOULD be valued in society when therer are obvious better measure to use. Ive never seen any reputable evidenxe that having fewer previous partners makes you less likely to cheat. I faintly remember a dubious study cited by Lauren Southern, but that's about it. That sounds way more like a correlation than a causal relationship.
@@zacharychristy8928 I mean, I could give you a lengthy explanation since you seem so confused, but the reality is it doesn't fucking matter, because at the end of the day it's not about how you feel but about how the majority of men feel, and you have absolutely 0 right to push somebody into being with somebody they don't want to be with.
i like when destiny acts like he grew up in a vastly different era. gaming was not some super nerdy thing in 2007 lol. yeah if you were obsessive and antisocial and 'uncool', but normies had been playing games for well over a decade by then. most women (and people in general) back then didn't like the nerdy obsessive antisocial types, and they still don't. but they liked the chad or normie who casually played smash or sports games with his bros, just as they do now. very little has changed with that, esp since 2007. yeah there are more girl gamers and even more normies gaming and online now. but it's just a gradual continuation of what was already going on back then. playing videogames in 2007 wasn't seen as some dorky activity like kids in 1983 playing dungeons and dragons in their basement. that's just a myth perpetuated by people who love self-martyrdom/victimhood--hardcore antisocial types who happened to be into vidya taking their experience as friendless virgins and extrapolating that out to the general pop (and blaming their unpopularity on their being gamers and taking pride in their loserdom and building an identity out of being Gamer Nerds--the nerd aspect was the thing people took issue with, not the gaming).
![[Live] ศึกมหึมันส์มวยไทยสังเวียนเดือด เวทีมวยชั่วคราวสวนสยาม | จันทร์ 30 กันยายน 2567](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/pM1k6f7JXUc/mqdefault.jpg)
Destiny debates Sargon and pushes back against conservative views on women and men, dating, traditional roles and more.
This wasn't a debate haha,
D: "yeah i agree"
S: "no, i agree more"
There were definitely some points where Destiny COULD have pushed back, but he let a lot slide. I actually think this convo was slightly irresponsible of him tbh
Destiny mostly agrees with Sargon, with slight pushback in his anecdotal experience in his own relationships.
@@carlosallison8955 when you find yourself mostly agreeing with Sargon of Akkad about women’s roles in relationships and broader society, maybe some introspection is required. I think destiny has become a little un-self aware at times tbh
When a driving reason you disagree with something is the source of an idea, rather than an actual critique of the idea, I feel you need a bit more introspection.
I say that as someone who both agreed with Destiny on his four reasons, and agree with Sargon that there are downstream impacts on culture promoting a no-consequences idea of do whatever you want sexually.
Every time Destiny says"sexual " he really emphasizes it a and slightly raises his voice. SEXUAL!
Destiny is a hornyboi. Vaush said so.
@@toomuchmidi Aren't we all?
So cute
It's a very emphasiseable word tbf.
@@peffiSC2source it’s got a nice arrangement of lingual accents. Kinda like fallacious.
I'm digging the hell out of these somewhat chill discussions/debates. I'm all for disagreement and different opinions but I just can't handle the constant passive aggressiveness, name-calling, sarcasm, and straw man nonsense that seems to permeate the debate bro environment.
Yeah I’m not a fan of Sargon, but the chill talk was nice for a change
Agreed. I find this topic to be sort of gross but Sargon is at least civil
@@trivialcomment8354
I'm a fan of Sargon, and I find these conversations much more interesting than the constant debate me bro bs. This was a nice change.
I think destiny is finally realizing he doesn't need to be a debate bro anymore to get views. A lot of his current viewership kind of despise the debate bro stuff now that Destiny has shown he doesn't need it to have a conversation
His old justification for it was that it brought in views and caused discourse where there wouldn't be any. Think things are finally moving on though
@@TNTspaz
I'd like to think things are moving on through, but we'll see. I never watched much of Destiny, but when I saw he wasn't as fanatical as the bread tube types, I thought he was at least worth giving a listen.
40:39 holy shit. I opened a monster hunched over a keyboard at this exact moment
Just wanna say that I like when the thumbnails and titles aren't the cringey exaggerated faces with clickbait capital titles. Makes your content match what's being watched. I know it's to game the algorithm but I think it's better this way.
It was totally clickbait. They weren't debating about coachredpill
Exactly. This is high quality content bogged down by clickbait titles
I dont mind nor care. Youll nvr know if the videos good from the title anyways
Wait…there’s an algorithm that’s lead to all these ridiculous faces and poses people make on the thumbnails?? I’m honestly in the dark here.
@@gustercc its more so that people are more likely to click it if its clickbait which then makes youtube recommend it to more people
A big part of this is that nowadays a lot more women are getting degrees and jobs that can provide for them economically so the "standard" of men being marriage material for having a career has just become a baseline of being a member of society at all.
Doesn't mean that his comment isn't applying to social reality today
@socially unacceptable im pretty sure marriage is originally about love, but for as long as humans have existed elites in society use it as a bargaining tool
No it wasn’t😂 stop watching Disney
@@faeiger9215 Ah, and I'm sure you know exactly what it was originally for
ahh yes the men are wallets arguments , if you dont have money boys what use are you as a wallet
Sargon has actually lost a lot of weight and looks good I’m proud of him unironically
He had to re-brand his optics since he kept getting roasted for being chubby from both the left and right.
Pretty sure he just does it to be healthy, not because the internet told him so.
@@scarletcrusade77 He literally said years ago that he wants to be healthy for his wife and child. Like a responsible adult.
@@meh2972 I think so to not everything is politics
Why can't it be for both reasons lol
More like a chill convo
I want more of does, it is just more usefull than the shouting matches....
@@KaptajnKaffe see shouting matches are more fun to watch but convos like these get more done.
I like this about destiny. he's more interested in exploring topics than many others who rather than just have a win than anything else.
Yeah tbh I loved it , two streamers I watch and find myself somewhere between the 2 , to see them be so agreeable was really refreshing tbh
@@KaptajnKaffe it’s so much more relaxing to see two people on separate sides just have a chill conversation. There’s so much more good faith and and moderation happening and you can actively see the other size actually take the other point into consideration.
I’m probably a hard leftest, but seeing this happen just feels so refreshing.
This dude had Destiny on just about every point.
Like I always say. Look at the suicide and depression rate
Maybe. Just MAYBE… it isn’t working
This is why I like Destiny. He didn’t have Carl on just to treat him like an idiot and dunk on him like Vaush does with everyone he has on that he disagrees with.
This is just two men having a productive, engaging conversation about something they disagree on in several ways but are mature enough to talk about in a civilized manner that isn’t painful to listen to.
That’s why I’m convinced so many of these other streamers are just in it for the dopamine rush of dunking on someone in front of a hoard of sycophantic fans and don’t actually give a damn about anything they claim to stand for.
watch his last debate with sargon, he was much more combatative and confrontation with sargon. this one was much more refreshing though, i agree
Vaushs Chad Dunks are more entertaining though.
@@whatsgood6440 Maybe if I was 14 years old and obsessed with the word “poggies” that would be more my thing. I like the actual arguments.
@@murdoch3396 Wait How? When I say dunking I mean he made them look foolish during an argument. It’s actually really good arguments.
@@whatsgood6440 Making someone look foolish at an argument is not as good. Vaush accepted a debate with Sargon and when he was called on to debate he said that he was going to bed. Sargon sucks but Vaush did not want to debate with Sargon on should Socialist content creators help people.
Damn this was actually civil, like two mates talking. Love to see it.
I feel like I've gone back in time by a couple of years for this video
Back to the 1950s, with boregone of oh gawd.
ye 2010 when sargon wasnt yet telling lies about my hometown...
Great conversation guys. It's nice hearing a no bullshit conversation where people take the time to understand and respond to each other's points
Haven’t seen this guy in a while
Nice galaxy news radio pic! Lol
He seems much more well adjusted than his old self
@@humanoid8344 Don't buy it, he's just putting on a face for this particular interview to get that reaction. Sargon is very much in the "the election was stolen" camp and is promoting far right European politicians on his channel.
@@ajmari9585 good point. You can't be reasonable and have issues that diverge from American leftist politics.
@@ThenDarknessFalls Thanks for being accidentally left wing, but no, I actually don't think he's reasonable. Someone who's been propping up and gritting off the lie for months that the election was stolen that led to 5 people dying trying to take over the Capitol and has led to about 30% of people in this country trying to make voting harder isn't "reasonable" to me. Maybe he speaks to you because you don't get laid or something and the conversation about women's body count is super important to you but I actually care about the important shit.
Just getting a good enough job to afford what I need and some beer is the true sigma grindset. Truly based
@@hundredsac problem?
Imagine being locked into the alpha/beta ubermensch/untermensch dichotomy. PepeLaugh
I'm pretty post-modern in enjoying critiquing categories. Sigma is counter-signal and I couldn't stop being contrary if I tried.
Being intelligent is knowing when you have enough money.
Make money, Smoke weed, walk the dog before bed. That’s the only grindset I need
@@JellothePallascat sounds lonely and sad
The new arc of right leaning people coming to the table to talk more cordially has started
I mean Sargon was always a pretty relaxed guy. I feel like a lot of Destiny’s camp would inflate him with people like “No-bullshit” or “Naked Ape”.
The first time they talked destiny had a nuclear melt down and start flailing around then Dmca’d a set of clips Sargon made of him contradicting himself.
@@Localpref416 I can see why anyone talking to carlgon would have a complete meltdown.
@@Localpref416 Conflate
nah it s just that destiny just shifted to the right with them
@@noided5599 His lefty arc has buffed his economic concerns, so now he's fiscally conservative and socially liberal.
/s
To be fair, my wife doesn’t want me to shave my beard off and I don’t want to her to cut her hair. It can go both ways.
Same ✋
Same same
Yep. And it’s not “oppressive” and bad, people just like and are attracted to things and compromises happen in relationships about all kinds of shit
It’s a preference that not everybody has you’re exactly right 🙂
My gf has the same thing but with chest hair.
Damn, I haven't seen Carl in a good while, and just found out who Destiny is very recently. I appreciate seeing this kind of calm discourse between people with opposing views, we need more of this.
pretty chill discussion tbh
Yeah and good compromise on positions etc, good talk tbh. Look how many lefties are soo offended in the other comments lol, I love the cope.
Destiny didn't go hard enough on him. He was giving too much ground to him in my view. Sargon made vague garbage points, as he always does, and Destiny missed a lot of opportunities to repudiate them.
@@peterpehlivan157 yeah like whenever Sargon mentions 'pillars of civilization' you know he needs to be probed deeper as it could easily just be a cover for ethnonationalism
@@BDKoala Yeah, exactly. Or how China is going to outbreed us. Total bullshit, the reason why they lifted the that one child policy is that their birthrate has been declining recently like every rich place.
And that "REALITY says most women have to be trad wives." Or "NATURE incentivizes women not to [be promiscuous], but FeMiNiSm incentivizes them otherwise" (??????) Fucking yikes.
@Pike Man OK you think my comment was a stretch but somehow seemed to pickup a ethnonationalist talking point espoused by Sargon that if we let in too many brownies the culture will be irredeeambly changed. The problem is, no one here (out of major political parties) is proposing mass migration on that scale as it would destroy social services, infrastructure, Healthcare etc. That's why most countries have a cap or keep net migration to a sustainable level, so your hypothetical is not even realistic. And the thing about culture is that it is always changing/transforming, it's not necessarily a bad thing.
i can't tell if i just live in a separate universe to the one sargon and coach red pill are in, but i feel like all of these complaints they have about the modern women are entirely invented and a product of spending 24 hours a day online and not interacting with actual real life women. most women do not in fact have an only fans account, and, in my experience, dress reasonably modestly, make an effort to appear attractive and aren't raging SJWs. beauty standards are more pernicious than they have ever been. like, please, where is this magical place where women don't give a fuck about appearing attractive and just exist comfortably in their own skin without constantly feeling as though they are an object being looked at bc i wanna live there
I agree that Sargon talks like he’s in a bit of an internet bubble… but his concerns from the perspective of that bubble are reasonable imo.
@Pike Man i think the point is that that place doesn't technically exist
You can destroy almost all of these red pill types by simply asking for statistics or studies.
They literally have no statistical evidence that beauty standards are becoming more lax nor causational studies proving promiscuity causes all the bad things they state.
@Pike Man it doesn't technically exist, because a woman who doesn't wear make up, pretty herself up, etc., will be looked upon unfavorably as a dating partner by most men. A lot of jobs, espescially in media, sometimes require use of makeup.
You're assuming how I operate just to have the feeling youve got some sort of gotcha, which is very funny. However, I don't care much for what I'm wearing, and don't try to buy stuff just to fit with the group. That being said, I'd never want to walk around with breath that smelled like a dead animal, not having showered for weeks, completely naked, or with shit in my pants; I think it's fair to not want those specific things in public, but they are extremes for why it's not technically true you can do whatever you want and still have the normal human experience. You have to somewhat engage in the social game of life if you want to get through it normally.
Thank you!! Destiny makes him come off as reasonable
Destiny didn't say "I love you be careful okay" at the end. Hates Sargon confirmed?
I hope so
Pretty clear he does, ye.
@@ronaldmexico1297 Hater
@nathanael dunann He clearly doesn't. Did you watch the video? They agreed on most things.
@nathanael dunann I'm pretty sure he hates Nick. I think he used to really dislike Sargon back in the day but they seem much more chill now.
God it's crazy how uncharitable so many of the people in the chat are.
Sargon: "This woman is *my* woman. She is special *to me,* and no one else."
Chat: "Heaven forbid you don't get to own a woman!"
Yeah, okay. He definitely wasn't referring about the exclusivity inherent to monogamous relationships and the feeling that produces in people, *both* people, where they feel special and possessive of their partner, and often refer to their partner endearingly as, "my woman"/"my man".
dog, what in the hell is Sargon arguing on repeat...
based ai viewpoint
omg my favourite snack eating voice overing youtuber again
he's just mad bc he doesnt get female attention
He is talking about BLM. Everything is about race.
@@yyzx_6668 he's married btw
Bonger interview released during bonger hours. Seems fair.
It's 10 bongs rn I'm thriving
Bonger o'clock innit m8.
This is the News at 10. Bong!
I wish Destiny would have more conversations with Sargon. I'm pretty sure they'd agree on the drag queen topic a lot more now.
Keep up the good work destiny. I honestly feel this laid back anti-hostile debates is what can slowly bring back the world to peace
Sargon showing off his guns hahaha. Has he lost weight? He doesn't look like he's smuggling apples in his cheeks anymore.
Yeah eats keto
Confirmed, he's gone on a diet.
@@Rhodiac keto facist is the official term 😆
@@stopaskingforrealnames3853 Not just diet but actually working out as well.
it was also like 31 degrees in the uk that evening as well which for us is like desert level heat so i think that explains the vest
Destiny: "Men aren't living up to their tradcon standards, they should work on themselves and fulfill their duty to civilization"
Sargon: "I agree and I'm willing to beat them with a stick until they do meet those standards, but women need to meet some standards as well"
Destiny: "Well I think culture has changed"
Yep. As I stated before, that was an extreme straw man
Not only did he deflect, he deflected with such an irrelevant point.
So fucking what if culture has changed and we're more accepting of nerds? That was an unreasonable standard in the first place. The only reason women wouldn't touch nerds with a 10ft pole is because of reasons like, "my friends would laugh at me," or "that stuff is weird". How many unreasonable standards does the average man have?
Sargon's characterisation was more about the monster energy and the hunchback and whatever, not the mere fact that lots of guys play video games.
Well that's not what Destiny said. His point is that you shouldn't expect to attract people that are out of your league. Society has changed and you also shouldn't beat people with a stick so they are forced to suit your dated ideology.
@@TheRedHaze3 He didnt deflect. He made the same point. Men don't have to suit dated ideologies such as not being nerds. The same way women don't. However, if you want to attract people who adhere to these dated ideologies, you have to yourself.
Yeah you totally missed the point on this. Destiny said that if you want a trad wife you need to actually be a trad man. Meet the standards you invoke on the other sex.
You shouldn't be sniping at women from the shadows and odor of your cave made of stiffened socks.
Sargon identifies material issues (birth rate, increased monetisation of all human interactions) and ignores all material factors that might have contributed to these things emerging, preferring to restate disgust mantras about niche cultures he dislikes.
Yeah it does feel like most of his positions on female sexuality come down to a disgust for used goods.
@@TheNoodleGod9001 most social conservatism is about disgust.
It's like he thinks prostitution didn't exist before contemporary "leftist" culture.
He totally fails to account for the possibility that (to some extent) prior ways of living (that will be upheld as traditional) may have themselves been shaped by material realities of the day, instead of being some incontrovertible internal truth about attractiveness and desire.
There is quite a lot of psychological evidence that people (men or women) with many sexual partners have a lot more problems making long term connections/relationships.
I know what you mean, it does seem like Sargon is like that, but there is evidence to show why having an aversion to promiscuousness, especially if you are looking to have a LTR, is good from that perspective
@@basedcentrist3056
I don't doubt that at all.
I just don't think increasing levels of promiscuity that we observe are due to leftist cultural influence.
I think two points worth considering:
1: people's lives respond to and are shaped by thier material reality to a vast degree- cultural artefacts of this are possibly symptoms.
2: How much do we want to trust historic data on levels of promiscuity? It might be accurate for the 1950s, but over hundreds of years? It's easy to assert a "way it used to be" that feels right, but often it's very nebulous.
He uses it to fear-monger just look at that podcast he’s on
I don't understand why Sargon believes that women are holding men to a unfair deal (I'm halfway thru the video btw). It sounds like he's saying that there is stock in women being held to a traditional standard but he isn't explaining in depth why that traditional standard has merit......everything seems to be boiling down to preference (at least in the way he is framing it).
@Schino Schina ok, I'll explain the trad wife thing (my gf wants to be one. I don't though, because I find it unfair to me).
The argument with cooking and cleaning is:
If you want to be a stay at home mom, that raises the kids, fine. But then also prepare the food, clean the house, maybe iron the shirts. Because in kind the husband is soley responsible for keeping the budget afloat by working his ass off.
Its a give and take. If you don't like that deal, don't be a trad wife.
Vive versa, if you want to have a strong dominating husband who makes more money (trad husband), do the dishes, aso (trad wife)
The men are held to a traditional standard always while women pick and choose when to be traditional or modern. That's the unfair deal.
@@anchess2517 men are held to a traditional standard because I feel like alot of men hold men and want to be held to a traditional standard. Maybe what I see is localized to my social media browsing but the posts I see about "being a real man" and "traditional standards" ..the majority of them are made by men and some of them are definitely made by women. This seems to be a internal problem when I look at it. How can we expect women to not hold us to something that we are enforcing amongst ourselves?
@@jidmoore10 Women want a guy who earns more money than them even though woman are out earning men in a lot of different areas. Women want a guy to be traditionally masculine-dominant assertive confident. Women want a guy who is taller than them and stronger than them. There are all traditional characteristics women want in men. That's why I said men are held to a traditional standard but women pick and choose when to be traditional or modern.
If I am being traditional and ask her to cook or clean, she replies"I am a modern woman" and when I ask her to pay the bills, she replies " Oh that's you job as a man".
Also there are many men telling men "how to be men" because nobody teaches boys how to be men. In the US a good percent of boys are brought up in single mother household, have no masculine role model in school/college and then the women expect them to be masculine.
Unpopular Opinion: I don't want to be in the bottom 10% of men, I'm cool with being a clean, self-improving, financially stable ordinary/average joe. I stay presentable but I'll never try to impress a woman.
Sargon and Destiny is an absolute treat. Awesome discussion
Love how Sargon kept saying "I think the way these young men see it is..." when presenting incel opinions from his own head
Incel opinions must work then because they got him a wife and kid
Be specific what incel opinions do you mean. Sargon specifically went after incels saying they are whiny and entitled blaming women for their problems.
Watch the police interview with Alek Minassian for the actual incel opinions.
“I can’t find a woman up to my standards” said no 24-30 yro in shape, college edu man with a good career..ever lmao
I can't believe this comment. Go into any tech company and ask many guys are single. It's over half. Tons of tech guys are educated, well paid, and in shape. They just can't talk to women.
@@hijumper75 True, add "sociable" to the original comment and it's accurate.
@@hijumper75 'They just can't talk to women' why? Do they have social anxiety issues or afraid of rejection?
It's not that difficult to socialize, unless you're pent up in the suburbs.
@@carl8790 Everyone has different reasons, for some socializing may be as simple as breathing, but for others it can be terrifying. Even if you didn’t grow up in the burbs lol
Mix and match any two of those and you’ll be good
Now he's Coach Deadpill lmao
As a traditional woman, my complaints weren't even like 'he plays too much video games'. It was stuff like, 'I want a husband that I can trust will be loyal to me', 'I want someone that has similar values(conservative Christian values)', 'I want a guy who will be a good father/wants a family'. You'd be surprised how many men will say straight out they aren't interested in marriage/settling down, or they just want hookups and crap, guys that just can't hold a conversation other than small talk bs. It was so discouraging because as a 19 yo girl looking for a partner, guys my age generally just aren't wanting the same things as me. I prefer older men anyway and my fiance is 7 years older, but many guys I met before him were creeps in like their 40s looking at a 19 YEAR OLD WTF. I'm so glad I'm not single anymore lol.
Yeah I think a good portion of that is the maturity difference between men and women at certain ages.
My fiance is six years younger, she was 19 and I was 25. I think even a year before I wouldnt have been ready for that type of commitment. I know at 19 i was not in anyway ready for a serious longterm partner. Maybe at the time I thought I was but looking back I wasnt ready.
Norm on both sides unfortunately, most outward facing people aren't serious and most serious people are demotivated from engaging with the dating market due to the prevalence of bad actors. There is a massive rise in religiously traditional young men going on but those movements basically don't have young women at the moment, or at least not enough for all the guys who want to get married and start families.
I need a Destiny/Sargon podcast. They have good chemistry and are able to find common ground but can also stand their ground and disagree amicably.
Dead on accurate.
I think a lot of people get mixed up whether or not someone is “rational“ or “not that bad” by whether the speaker’s tone was harsh and brash or calm and collected like Sargon was here. The problem with that is that Sargon is a civic nationalist, (civilizational duty for a woman to not sleep around) and (I’m assuming) a lot of these people would be disgusted if the same talking points came out of an incel who screamed about how women should be in the home and shouldn’t sleep around. It’s actually interesting how much tone matters and changes people’s perspectives, it’s like people don’t actually listen to the premises and conclusions but how those premises sound.
You hit the nail on the head. Literally what is occurring here. Sargon may not be yelling/super combative, but he's speaking crazy shit, and he has an entire viewable history of crazy shit he still believes/supports and hasn't changed on. The idea that he's "good faith" "rational" etc is literally all based on him just not being angry. I wish more people saw that.
You're completely right, however I prefer conversations to be done like this than screamed at each other over the smallest little detail that neither side will concede even though there are glaring issues with the argument as a whole. It would have been good to see more pushback on some things because obviously some things were taken for granted (like you mention, forcing women to be at home), but again, I'd rather the conversation be civil and stay away from useless personal attacks.
@@PlayaGuitar I would -typically- too, but when the persons arguments aren't substantive it's a bit ridiculous when civility is the case. Him letting stuff slide or being passive about it is what let it be chill. Previous convos he's had with sargon usually go in the direction you speak of because destiny didn't let him slide by with crazy prescriptions. Plus, it's not like the civility thing is a fault of the other speakers either. Destiny definitely has yelled over some passive people especially recently.
Honestly I think the whole thing bugs me so much because Sargon and Lauren Southern are huge as fuck and have done a lot to add to the awfulness of the current political landscape. Seeing them approached so passively by destiny, who I thought cared the most about truth and butting conspiracy really fucks with me. These people are genuinely scum, and have more effect on the world/have had effect.
@@Mincheesy do you think destiny has a better chance of convincing Sargon fans that he's wrong by yelling at him or by offering another perspective in a kind way? I don't think you win people over by offending them, even if you're right.
@@PlayaGuitar see I accept that argument, BUT it feels like it's also making destiny fans swing towards acceptance of sargon/southerns, which is scary as fuck to me, and I imagine it could be aided by the lefty Arc shit. Plus destiny has won over people with aggressiveness/confidence to these individuals in the past. Ide even say I'm one of them who, with the way destiny used to debate, was heavily swung away from the right I was already teetering on.
41:00 destiny deflected hard. Sargon said why is it that when men are criticised to meet a certain standard it’s perfectly socially acceptable but absolutely abhorrent when you hold woman to any standard and critique them. You got no reasonable answer for that because this absolutely is a problem.
@Tight n Nerdy Nah, look around you with body positivity etc. They now even get a pass for being outright obese. They're one hashtag away from a subculture of anti health enablers.
@Tight n Nerdy or it rejected valid beauty standards and critiques to obesity towards woman, which are also there for men. Another avenue which they get a pass on. No standard to live up to, they are perfect for having being born with a vagina and immune to any criticism.
I urge you to find a popular influencer who tells fat men they are beautiful and perfect the way they are. You’ll have a hard time finding any. That’s not because men aren’t ‘held to the same standard’. It’s because fat men realise they have a problem and don’t peddle this bullshit, nor does society enable them to indulge in this type of toxic thinking.
@Tight n Nerdy ignore my point and sleep easy tonight
@@toothacheforever8437 Its because women have been held to an insane beauty standard for forever and have had to deal with the toxicity that comes with that. So people are trying to be very mindful when it comes to women in particular because of how much the toxic beauty standards have hurt them.
@GingerGuitarist If you do not realize that historically beauty standards have been much more harmful for women then I don't know what to tell you. Men being more horny then women has nothing to do with beauty standards. Women have struggled with this and in turn are more mindful to each other when talking about appearances. How is that a bad thing.
I LOVE seeing how Destiny and Sargon have evolved in views and tone
This conversation lowered my blood pressure
It’s insane seeing two people in 2021 having a reasonable conversation and being able to comprehend both sides.
People will do whatever they need to, to attract a greater audience. TH-cam has evolved. If youtube was the same as 2017 Sargon would still be going after feminists and easy SJW targets/
I’d say that Sargon’s tone has changed, but his views are still pretty gross! Just cause this is a chill convo, we shouldn’t turn the critical side of our brains off!
@@bgoodnow Yeah this is insane lol, he's being very polite but effectively saying that women who have sex have debased themselves in some way. Ignoring the fact that the men complaining about how slutty women are also want to fuck when they're young! It's quite misogynistic even by MRA standards imo
It's werid seeing them get along
Kind of boring.
People can disagree and still be friendly.
Its almost as if Sargon is actually not far right and actually is just a moderate or maybe right of center liberal...
@@L3monwedges You have to be joking
@@L3monwedges and thus they stepped out of the cave to bathe in the sunshine of enlightenment 😁
Heads up, right winger here. Subscribed to you because of your late activity and the debate you had with Sargon. You seem to be most reasonable left wing voice out there so to break the own personal echo chamber I thought I should subscribe to you for seeing other view points.
Long term Destiny fan here also on right. Sometimes I rage on his most lefty takes but I still love to watch his debates. He's more tolerable than ppl like Vaush that's for sure.
@@MultiAsdag yeah i used to be subscribed to lot of left wingers in past, but then they started to make outright lies since their attitude was that end justifies the means. I couldn't see them as good source of honest information after it.
I used to be very left leaning and destiny is the one who brought me close to the center. I used to listen to hard-core lefties alot but nowadays I stick with left leaning centrists like eristocracy. So yeah, Destiny defo helped me break my echo chamber except it's the opposite way from you lol
@@arinkang179 Well I never really was in echo chamber. I always challenged myself. I just wanted to find some left wing youtuber who isn't dishonest so I could actually see rational arguments and evidence for their cases. You never know if you hear something new.
@@arinkang179 Rofl seems like your friend removed the muscle thread or just blocked me in order to have last word :DD
with the body count thing, I just want someone whose similar to me and has interest in similar experiences. like I want a girl into indie music and hiking just as much as I want a girl who has similar sexual desires to me.
The reason for body count is that it implies that she has no capability to restrict herself. Which means that she will end up cheating on you and can even have some STDs. This same applies to guys as well. The reason why social norms are more against women acting like that is because no one wants to raise another man's child.
@@Tespri this isn't true at all plus it's only/mostly women who get shamed for this shit and also "nobody wants to raise another mans child" but everybody wants to raise another woman's child? why is it so disgusting to raise another ones for men? i don't understand this stupid double standard
@@tomtom0157 No, I'm absolutely correct. People who study human behavior, history and even biology knows this for fact. It literally comes down to that no man wants to raise up another man's child. There is good evolutionary reasons for it.
"why is it so disgusting to raise another ones for men?"
Simple logic, every biological species and life forms seeks to reproduce, few exceptions are mentally ill humans.
Raising another man's child while thinking that it's your own is evolutionary dead sentence for the guy. Thus from evolutionary standpoint guys benefit for not raising another man's child.
It's not double standards since we aren't the same thus same rules don't apply.
Also women only have breed with men they consider strongest/influential in their circles. Woman having breed with another man would demean the man and emasculate his self-worth. While men by their nature desire to have as many babies as possible thus having multiple wives or sex patterns is beneficial for them in evolutionary sense. Same time it's not as demeaning for his partner for same reason. Men seek to increase number of offsprings while women seek to only to chase the quality of mate and provider.
Seems like you reported my previous comment so now it's hidden. Typical far left winger. Can't even be intellectually honest.
@@Tespri cringe
@@ernie.99 Your avatar picture is cringe.
Love both these guys, happy it's a civil meeting haha
As a tip for the future, if Destiny wants to bring up birth rates and all that in this kind of debate he should read up on the sociological research, just to be able to support his arguments better.
It is a well established fact that the only way you can "force" women to have more children is to ban them from receiving education.
On the point Sargon made about Denmark's birth rate, as a foreigner living here I keep getting surprised that a lot of families have at least 2-3 kids, and a bunch of people I know have like over 5 other siblings. In a standard marriage situation a family will likely have up to or around 3 kids, anything beyond that would usually involve remarriages or having new partners.
As a rando on the internet, in my opinion, big factors that help maintain the high birth rate are good social security, free education, strong economy, healthcare. Their healthcare can be super rad. So these are the intuitive points other countries can aim for.
Government handouts aren't necessary to maintain a high birth rate. The most important factor that influences whether or not to have children is the cost of living. Also, it's not "free" education since people are still paying for it via higher taxation.
Lol wut. Correlation =/= causation. Sociological research shows that a main reason higher educated women have less children is because they have a career and either have no time to raise children or find it too expensive to both work and pay for childcare, nannies or whatever. Which is why they're having children when they're older and more financially secure.
Women with less education often have a spouse that looks after them so they can stay home and raise their kids. I.e traditional type of family unit, which is often seen in immigrant/migrant/refugee families and in developing nations. Note that these nations and family units are often economically poorer. The expectation is their kids will get an education, have a good paying job which will help the family out of poverty.
@@3112-x9r you know you destroy the word "free" from the english language the way youre using it right? Literally nothing is free if we are pedantic af.
@@Manolara1 don't you think that it's their only way in life to find a spouse that earns enough to support the woman and their children, it's not like she has a degree in anything and it's not like she can get any job that would be paying enough to provide for her family if she happens to have one.
The lack of time may be true for murica, cuz people have to work multiple jobs. Here people have one job, work till 6 pm and then have enough time to go out or drive their children to play dates or whatever else.
Have you ever looked at the research outside your country? The entire "third world" has this issue of high birthrate that hinges on women not having access to school and sex education.
Danish birth rate is 1.73 so your anecdotal examples are rather pointless.
Destiny really lets the performative twitter lefties get to him lol
Well Twitter, TH-cam, twitch, and academic lefties.
Destiny is so weird. He likes to pretend that he is so distant emotionally from internet stuff and it doesn't affect him like any normal person, yet he gets pissed off by lefties on the internet
@Pike Man Fr. This channel is what I come to, to get an alternative viewpoint to my centrist/alt right stance. His fans are Reddit incarnate.
@@shadow50HD centrist/alt right? one of these things is not like the other. in any way.
@@shadow50HD could I also get a clarification on centrist and alt right? Those seem to me like starkly different things. Are you socially alt right and economically centrist?
Sex does have a certain unique sanctity to it. If someone is raped, for example, that violation takes on a whole deeper dimension than being knocked out.
I don’t think we have any obligation to have children. Not everyone is fit to be a parent, and forcing/pushing/bullying people into having them just causes more suffering- for the parents who hate it and the children with bad parents.
If you actually want people to have children, you need to financially incentivise it. Children are a huge financial hit for most people, and it’s a large factor in why people are delaying/forgoing families.
Also, what’s wrong with furry conventions? They’re just people in cute costumes hanging out.
The boomer republicans pushed marriage and they also pushed “I hate my wife” jokes.
He ignores the fact that things changed, because obviously people weren't happy with the way they were.
He also would never talk about the financial constraints people have now, that they didn't have back when they were having a lot of kids.
And no secure man cares if his wife makes more money than he does.
Certainly incentivicing childraising by use of finances and taxbreaks seems an entirely laudible goal.
And it is true you cant force people to have kids (or at least you really shouldnt)
But do humans have a responsibility to continue humanity? If no, why not? Why the nihilism? Humanity is pretty great. What would the universe be without us? Cold and empty and with nobody there to see it, proparbly. I'd rather have a kid that can fly to mars when he's big, thank you.
(Also the issue with furries is that there's way too many creepy people in the fandom, with zoophiles and pedophiles being scarily common. Maybe the perception would be better if they self-regulated a bit more)
@@mrvoltem9379 how would the world be cold and empty without humans? There's a plethora of sentient Life on this planet.
@@mrvoltem9379 I don’t think it matters whether humans exist or not. And if it does, then why should it be my responsibility? I didn’t ask to be here, I didn’t sign a form before I was born accepting the terms and conditions of life. I was thrust unwillingly into a quite frankly terrifying and morbid world. I don’t have a responsibility to anyone to continue anything.
@@mrvoltem9379
And to say I owe it to my ancestors to continue it forward, thats like force feeding someone a plate of food that gives them food poisoning, then saying “I fed you, now you owe it to me to give me your entire life savings”
Promoting Gambling and Sargon! Morally neutral!
AMAZIN
@@michaeljackson8390 Anyone that uses that many emojis is not to be trusted. I'm usually not one to asrcibe labels to people. But imma go ahead and call THOT or Bot
the "super capitalist" would be in favour for gambling, no?
i think ive heard destiny say he doesn't think poker is bad because its not a pure chance games
@@nandi.handrews1502 As bad as gambling can be for individuals and society as a whole as a libertarian I have to agree. If idiots willingly separate themselves from their money thats on them
This is why I just cannot endorse the conservative/trad take on gender roles: Because at its core, and it's obvious from Sargon always fucking returning to that "sacred" nonsense, it is a prescription how to behave, whereas at the core of the progressive take on gender roles (even if we acknowledge that some people take deconstruction maybe too far), it's that people can do whatever they feel/think is right for them. That's why Sargon cannot just agree that trad lifestyles can be followed in a liberal society just like any other and be done with the conversation, because he HAS to prescribe his idea to everyone else.
Yeah, throughout this whole thing there was never a justification for remaining "pure." Why are these traitor men entitled to a woman at all?
Yeah, it was frustrating not to see Destiny challenge him on his double standard.
@Arwyn also I'm fairly certain that the average person would be happier in a LOVING committed relationship rather than just shagging everything that moves, and I mean both sexes btw
@@rhyspalmer58 and part of being in a loving commited relationship is finding out what works best for you and your partner, and sometimes that doesn't look like a traditional relationship that Sargon would want basically the entirety of society to subject themselves to.
But his prescription isn’t a call for mandate, just like he said at 1:17:00 He simply advocates the prescriptions because people will be happier that way, but ultimately people have to choose to change their lifestyles. That is the Classically Liberal view: there is a right answer to things, but it is up to you to follow it
Carl and Steve not Adam and Eve.
This conversation was OK, but I do not understand why Sargon has to use so much morally loaded, demeaning and misogynistic language like calling women who are sexually loose “slags”. It just poisons so much of the message in an otherwise quite nuanced discussion.
You're right, they should be called sluts.
Depends on your Moral standings concerning those things. If you find it Abhorrent to be sexually loose then you are going to use demeaning language. If you hold the opposite, you will empower them with your language. There ARE nuanced takes to the things he said, He just doesnt care about the optics in that area, since his audience generally holds conservative beliefs.
You ask why... but You probably know the answer.
@@StuninRub That's pretty cringe alrigtht
Because he’s a lunatic, and all his political positions are based on disgust. It’s very weird that Destiny is having a chill chat with this guy.
For the sexual thing (women being innocent for the man): I feel a big part of the issue too is that the man does not have to meet these standards. More of the pressure is put on the women to remain abstinent... idk this has so many layers
I think they make an interesting point that it really was a biological issue before contraceptives we’re invented. Finding the right balance where we can fix the double standard yet understand what’s generally healthy to teach our kids about dating is something that’s naturally gonna take some time to sus out. It has a lot of layers like you mention
Yes. But this double standards only exists because it is easy for most women to get laid, but difficult for most men. You don't have to rationalize it with some complex oppression narrative in order to feed you narcissism.
And I feel lime the opposite is true for men. "Virgin" is such a common insult against them
@@hughmungous3357 perhaps, but that doesn't make it narcissistic... both sides have issues. You can't just blame women. Not everything is about getting laid. Maybe part of the issue is people like you just thinking about sex, huh? Did you miss that part???
@@shadez123 just because "virgin" has become some weird insult for men doesn't justify shaming women for not holding their "purity" for men. That's freaking weird
Oh boy is it 2016 again?
Why is Sargon showing off his pasty grandma arms lol
I haven't seen any grandma with arms like that. But why show of? Simple, he has changed and is proud about positive change that he had gained since he started dieting and working out. Why being so hostile over someone being happy over their own life improvement?
@@Tespri because they’re gross and I don’t want to see them lol
@@finiteenergy7155 Then don't look at them? Funny how left wing is more than eager to body shame when it comes to their political opponents.
@A Friendly Reminder educated guess. Video about Sargon and Destiny. Either you're sargon's suscriber in which case you wouldn't be insulting him. Or you're far leftists.
@A Friendly Reminder Do you even comprehend what word educated guess means?
Let's put it this way... The likelihood of you being far leftie is far higher than right winger. On basis of the channel, video and the comment you had made.
Sargon in the thumbnail just needs a monocle, a tophat and a speech bubble going "Mehehemehehe" and he will have achieved peak British.
@@Celedan And then racially abusing the players when they don't. Yep.
He's like a faux Toad of Toad Hall. Most of us would rather he would just disappear already.
I don’t trust Sargon, but at least he isn’t CRP. That’s definitely a plus, but that aside, he’s also pandered way too much to reactionary sentiment, political apologia and even COVIDiocy during a very serious global issue. He ought to know better, but whatever.
What was hilarious was that Short Fat Otaku was desperately trying to promote him as some reasonable voice in the chat and constantly whining about negativity when people would point out his and Sargon’s past follies. He even said that he likes SocDems, but that Leftists are just like Fascists. Yet every time SocDem ideas are proposed, he and his ilk whine about it all being Marxist subversion. He probably also considers insidiously dishonest and scientifically illiterate pundits like Candace Owens to be “decent people in the centre”. Clearly a very fat in the head Otaku.
Canadian.
@@ShortFatOtaku Right ... So ... You didn't say that leftists are like fascists, or that every time you were challenged on past opinions by either yourself or Sargon, you complained about cope or some other sad nonsense like that?
@@ShortFatOtaku Could you please define an ordinary average conservative as Sargon is? Could you also confirm if Candace Owens falls into the same category, and why?
He deleted his comment berating my comment for mischaracterising him entirely. What a shame. We were about to have a fruitful discussion in the free marketplace of ideas and see the factually sound arguments prevail. You know, like how leftists are more or less like fascists and like alt leftists and alt righters.
@@ShortFatOtaku Yeah, okay, TH-cam's oppressing you. I've already got some questions up there for you, "bruh". How about you take a crack at them. Perhaps there is substance to what you're saying.
Coach redpill VS Ctv 😈
I haven’t heard the man in years, but the fact Sargon actually had an honest and productive discussion with you blows my mind… this was surprisingly easy listening lmfao
Ye'. Maybe sargon was rough a few years ago when I wasn't around, but nowadays he's pretty chill. Most people are attached to strawmans now'adays.
Reduction in children per Household is very closely related to living standards, its simply, that in poorer area's/country's, more children are born because of child mortality. 6, 7 , 8 children families are a result of high mortality in children.
Man his generalisations just don't fit with what I've seen as a Christian. There are very few men in the church, there are lots of women. These are trad women who wan no sex before marriage, many wan to raise a family, many are against drugs, drinking and promiscuity and in England there are way more women who want that then men.
Its very difficult for a women who wants no sex before marriage to find any intimacy from men at all as many men assume if they have romantic connections with a women it has to have sex.
So I just feel like sargon has got it the wrong way round. If sargon wants this world he needs to talk to men more then women.
"women shouldn't be promiscuous because it makes them less desirable to men"
It makes them less desirable to a certain type of man, and to be honest if that means there's less of those men having kids and continuing their arcaic world view then that's a good thing.
The vast majority of men aren't so unbelievably insecure that they worry about who their partner has had sex with in the past.
yeah,no.
Who said it has to do with insecurity? Religious people still exist you know. And even still, if I’ve saved myself for my wife, then I would expect the same of her. It’s only fair.
This chat is so good faith. Feels like chatting with the boys.
"... and she froze her eggs, and when she went to use them -"
"wait WHAT!?"
creepy men latched onto that story like crazy
At about 2:30, Destiny would have flopped quads! Tough luck.
Okay with being single? Women as popping anti depressants like they’re M&Ms.
I would kill for destiny to talk to the fresh and fit guys
I'm glad they have aba and preach on a lot, but from at least their titles and the bits I've seen of their videos they don't seem very nuanced.
F&F and another Aba and Preach convo would be great.
@@AudaciousBourgeois lmao
How about women aren’t subject to men’s expectations of them. Women don’t need to live lives based on the prospect of maybe finding a man. This shit is dumb lol.
"This shit is dumb". Sorry but women want men&viceversa. Until that changes, this shit is not dumb.
@@fedea82 I agree people want relationships and sex. It’s childish and ignorant to think there is a secret formula or technique to getting either. This is dumb because it’s so niche and devoid of actual lived experience. Just a bunch of immature guys looking for some authority to spell out how to work their way into sex, regardless of the women or their wants
@@leftboxanderson5361 I don't think either of them thought their prescriptions were formulas for success, just their own opinions.
@@fedea82 further supporting my point. If this isn’t to get people into happy and healthy situations, it’s dumb.
@@leftboxanderson5361 but it was...
This video makes me want Sargon to move more towards the left, surprisingly interesting and a lot of agreeable conversation. Being able to settle on a reasonable middle ground with Destiny on surprisingly understandable positions is enjoyable. More content with him if this continues!
Sargon was Left. Then he decided to smarten up and not be a retard so he became a Rightist.
Yhea i did know I could not find a tradwoman but I dint expect sombody to disect my bitternes like desty Just did
Destiny, all of the men your women had before you surely remembers them fondly, and compares your bad sides to their good sides. And stop talking about sex like it's building a rocket engine. All you need is a handful of times and you've got 90% of it. I would take a girl with no experience any day over an experienced acrobat. Here is your litmus test - fall in love with a girl, and date her. Before you propose to her, have her recount all of her sexual experiences in great detail, the sinking feeling in your stomach will tell you that you have been deeply betrayed and what she has done is horrific. Sex is an evolutionary mechanism used for bonding. Bonding and un-bonding over and over lessens the quality of the bonding mechanism. One of the reasons so many marriages fail is precisely because they bond biologically and mistaken that for love. It is imperative not to have sex before being sure that you like all of the other parts of the person, because in the long run, those are the things that matter.
Beta.
I love this talk destiny keep having good talks with ppl on both sides
Women with shaved heads are super fucking hot bro, he is fucking tripping
Lmao even Sargon thinks CoachRedPill is a piece of shit. Aaaaamazin'
He has returned, Now kiss
Heard that Coach Red Pill was arrested by Ukrainians for being a spy on behalf of Russia and remembered the beef between Sargon and Coach. Ah memories!
A lot of the social norms are norms for a reason. Part of growing up is challenging them and sometimes being contrarian towards them. In the end, I find most people settle in to what feels right for them and adopt many (but maybe not all) of the norms. I think this is how norms evolve. I think it's odd to vehemently defend norms because they sort of defend themselves.
I don't understand one point who are these women having sex with.. Is it happening in vacuum?
Question to men: Is the " purity" of a women really as important as sargon says? Just curious :)
Not for me
Yes.
Remove women's obligation to carry a child and remove men's financial obligation to pay for a child.
End humanity?
@@richardvaldes3959 yes
@@richardvaldes3959 probably for the best
@@richardvaldes3959 why would making it a non-obligation end humanity?
I'm an hour into this and I still don't see what point they're trying to make. It sounds a lot like Sargon thinks women should stay virgins and be as pretty and traditional as possible and try to snag themselves a man, like a regioncy era romance novel, until they hit 25, at which point they become old maids and should get a job in childcare or just devote themselves to taking care of their parents.
Seems like you just weren't listening then
An interesting conversation that would be cool to see is addressing this argument with the exceptions, such as feminine men or masculine women that are willing to contribute to create a functional relationship but not exactly in the traditional way. I feel like a lot of where the LGBT community is coming from is that they want to break these expectations because these expectations just cannot work for them. Something in their brain just cannot identify with being "the pretty one" or "The strong one", yet the attraction towards the other remains nonetheless.
The impression I get a lot of the time with incels is that they DO identify with their expectations, but they just aren't willing to meet it because of really unhealthy mindsets, disorders or borderline misogyny that they can't even recognize.
The inherent nature of exceptions/outliers is THAT they are exceptions/outliers. As in, they don't fit into the discussion about the majority. So obviously they wouldn't be discussed.
LOL at 'borderline'.
@@CorwinTheOneAndOnly Agreed. That's why I posed it as a separate conversation instead of a point on this one. I just think that a lot of the movement Sargon is disagreeing with ARE those exceptions. Plus, i'm just saying it would be an interesting interaction. It may very well be he recognizes that there are outliers and agrees with Destiny, but he seems to have other contentions with LGBT so i'm not taking that position for granted.
the exception you're talking about isn't really an exception at all. When the study about how children tend to grow up better in 2 parent households was presented to me. I think about the emotional support from the mother (presented as feminine) and the sense of responsibility and tough love (presented as masculine). Both are opposing aspects but having both are important to helping a child navigate the world when they enter adulthood.
Of course there are other benefits like sharing the workload, dual income household but you're mostly talking about the nurturing aspect here. Also have you asked yourself how much you've used the word incel to degrade people? if you do overdo it, you're no better than the incels idealizing virgin girls and doing what young people call 'slut shaming'. Not accusing you but only you know yourself if you fit into this unhealthy mindset i'm suspecting you're having.
Role reversal is mental disturbing but opposite still a thing. A lot of norms are being questioned and what is considered new is really what has happened to re-enforce the current norm. You could have the biological woman do all the things we task to men but women themselves are not going in that direction. While it may seem they are with the rise of independence but really it falls back to the norms.
Having children isn’t a sacrifice, it’s a blessing.
it's a bit frustrating that Destiny didn't point out how Sargon kept assuming his traditional views of reality are just human nature and should apply to everyone. Sargon saying "it seems reality is X" then just stating some ridiculous ancient conservative viewpoint. Then destiny is like "if you see things that way, the optimal behavior is X" instead of "dude, please justify WHY you see things that way, because I seriously doubt you can justify that."
Destiny needed to keep saying "Yes, if you have YOUR views, but i'd argue thinking woman have some duty not to be sluts, is just a hangup you have that you need to get over."
Destiny was awful nice during this discussion. Are his view counts down or something? weird.
First time I've genuinely enjoyed listening to Destiny talk to someone.
"women marry up and men marry down" actually this depends on the culture. sargon is english & in england we tend to marry someone who earns about the same as us. "hypergamy" is not a natural or universal thing.
also so weird to me he is obsessed with women's sexual purity but still married a woman with a kid...
That's true in the US, too. Virtually everyone marries someone similar age, economic status/ tax bracket, education level & race. There is a lot of data on this and once you read it, you realize how ridiculous most "hypergamy" discussions are. Some men seem to think that most women are trying to get pg by footballers. There may be a few high profile examples, but dramatic hypergamy like that is rare. Most women marry a man who earns slightly more simply bc women earn ~70% of what men do
The exception doesn't make the rule. Also just because she has a kid doesn't mean she was Wilding out. Regardless of that as he already said a majority of guys will more than happily bang the hot OF girls but they arnt going to marry them.
@@scarlet8078 can you link me those stats? Because I know those arnt true.
@@edwardrichard8093 lol so is there a set amount of guys a woman can fuck or is it case by case?
this might shock you, but the vast majority of married men married women who had sex before. unless you are v young it's going to be a mission to find a virgin
Hes not obsessed with purity?
i have a hard time when i hear them talking about "INCELs" being the 300 lbs 5'10" guy when one of the biggest incidents in Canada was a guy with a successful career and a car (maybe a condo) running down people with a van and Destiny is like "it's so easy to find women" but then your just gonna use the known results to justify that he was "obviously crazy".
Also it took them like an hour to go from making at least 100k/year and being in the top 10% to making 35k/year (who are also less successful)
Incel is more about a mode of thinking and behaviors than any physical characteristics. There are some very conventionally attractive incels. Their main issues tend to be intense narcissism and a lack of socialization around women.
@@aleczitzelberger8123 kinda my point, the only people "commentators" like Destiny and Sargon refer to are the "neurotic losers" when you have middle income guys that still haven't had a relationship/sex and then it's "obviously something must be wrong with him"
You really let him get away with a lot in this one
I watched this live at TH-cam and all the the comments bashed Sargon for saying dumb stuff
Yeah this was a bit weird.
Destiny hates leftists so much, he can't even bring himself to actually debate Sargon.
Like what? I'm only a third in and so far sargon is being totally domesticated, he's not said anything wrong yet. What do u have in mind? I'll complete the video
Edit: I'm at the end now, what has sargon "gotten away with"? This has actually been great chat where they fed off each other and made their positions more precise. This will also likely drag some of sargons audience here, though I don't think destiny has been disingenuous in any way. Great talk.
@@alex-qd6of Destiny is literally challenging every point Sargon makes. wdym?
Sargon’s take on CRP mean “scum“ and him a few points of goodwill from me.
Sargon has always had issues with the super far right retard types. I can't remember the exact particulars of the situation, but CRP went out and told a bunch of lies about Sargon a couple years back when he was in conflict with alt righters.
@@justliving920 What lot of people don't realize due political fanaticism is that classical liberals (they are actually right wingers) and actual fascists are not the same thing. For example Jordan Peterson is liberal but left in general likes to paint him as far right. Something happened in past 10-years where suddenly being liberal started to mean being neo-nazi. Left wing suddenly became overly radicalized.
Yeah, the biggest problem is how people approach the issue. People usually view those sorts of things as important, or how it SHOULD be. So someone questioning them would come off as denying their view. It's also problematic like you said how people demonize each side.
It seems that personal reponsibility and honesty is lacking more and more in todays society, facing uncomfortable truth about onseself etc.
Though the amount of vitriol online certainly isnt helping either.
Worst thing is i dont know what i can do about it.
@@mrvoltem9379 I wouldn't say honesty is lacking, it's just morality is complicated. And people always take what they think correct as law essentially. Saying it isn't or changing that view would be in some cases people telling themselves they are bad. Especially depending how vocal they are about it and if they judged other people for it. They got on a ship and took off full speed assuming the ship to be impossible to sink.
@@InfernoVor yeah, thats true
That is all insightful as f#@k my guys
His question of why men have these standards while also participating is a great one! I believe the reason is that men get to get-off to the modern women while not committing and it reinforces the mating strategy of males (to mate with as many women as they can), from a bio-essesntialist perspective. But when we apply the human idea of pair-bonding, then men are seeking paternity-verification so their resources are not wasted.
Very apt point. It teaches men they don't have to or need to commit to a vvoman. That it's acceptable to see them as nothing more than objects. I find it extremely backwards and regressive.
@@RextheRebel So if you don't want to commit, you're automatically looking at women like objects? What a strange take. And no, you don't have to commit if you don't want to, I thought we agreed hyper conservative traditions of forced marriage was wrong? Women aren't owed relationships from men.
@@shrisiva4016 no one owes relationships to anyone 🤔. It's not gender specific.
Moving to the left and hearing Sargon years later is such a baffling thing to experience
Really glad that he was incredibly reasonable though. I feel like conversations with like Vaush only paint him as unreasonable because of Vaush's own combative attitude
Haven't seen Sargon's content in so long. Last I checked he was still just talking about non-issues in "this week in stupid".
Vaush is a joke and an absolute grifter.
I moved to the right and listened to destiny more which is weird. Don't ever watch Sargon's content either.
I was surprised to hear Sargon being so civil and honest. I think it’s more him going with the times and recognizing that diplomacy works better than combativeness. It could be insidious without someone as able to throw back against his rhetoric as Destiny. But as someone who came of age through all the political polarization, this kind of measured dialogue is all I wanted when I was younger. I was an early destiny fan, and I think he had a lot of impact tbh
Not having ever been dragged too far into the left OR right, I think that both of these guys are very reasonable to listen to, hence why it was such a good conversation.
If you actually feel that way about listening to Sargon talk you should check your own biases, you might be slipping a little too far into the left.
I kinda miss economics being part of this discussion, people do not just have less kids because of personal choices like chosing career over kids, but i think more so due to a lack of good paying jobs and affordable housing. If you can't afford kids you are not gonna have them, i am a lefty and i would love having kids with my fiancee but we can't have kids in our tiny appartment.
Yeah, finances are proparbly the reason many people arent having kids.
But then again, many people live in circumstances where they could spare some luxuries and then in turn afford to have kids.
Should we not encourage people that kids are more valuable than a new sports car?
(In your case i hope you or your fiancee are able to get a promotion so you can fulfill that dream, best of luck with that)
Meanwhile the poorest nations on earth have the highest birthrates. I think it's because westerners value their personal wealth way more than African or middle eastern nations.
Sargon won that by a mile
Man why does sargon have to have such a calming voice???
You sound like homer complaining about how sexy flanders is.
@@Tespri aye we all know Flanders is packing that heat
What counts as a “Vast Amount” of sexual partners, according to these guys:
Women - 4
Men - ∞
Apart from that males that have many partners are not exactly treated well as well. We have a word for those kind of men. They are called douchebags. Not exactly the kind of people like.
@@Cloud_Seeker What are you talking about? Men are _congratulated_ by other men for having many sexual partners.
@@CharlieApples Then you clearly have not been around other men. There is a difference between being able to get many women, and sleeping around. You are just going of sterotypes now and painting all men with a board brush. I should almost call you sexist for it.
@@Cloud_Seeker you’re right, I’ve never been around other men, ever. I was born and raised on the mythical Whore Island, where only women (and I) live
@@CharlieApples When you grow up, you will know what I say. You are a child that never been around men.
It seems like Carl's fundamental mistake is assuming that "purity" as a measure of a women is or should be on par with "success" as a man, and there's really just no reason for that. A man evaluating a partner on financial stability, career success or personality compatibility makes FAR more sense than "body count".
The dude also keeps using this weird medieval LARPer language too like "civilational duty" or "what nature hath bestowed upon women" as though some divine force ordained that his point makes sense.
Financial stability and career success are typically traits women look for in men. Men are mostly visual and go for looks and purity. Purity in the sense that if they have a kid they want to be sure it's biologically theirs, also the women with less partners are less likely to cheat.(sure there are some exceptions, but the exception is not the rule)
@@KingCrimeTime That's an appeal to tradition. You gave a series of statements on what some men value, what I was asking for are reasons why fewer previous partners SHOULD be valued in society when therer are obvious better measure to use. Ive never seen any reputable evidenxe that having fewer previous partners makes you less likely to cheat. I faintly remember a dubious study cited by Lauren Southern, but that's about it. That sounds way more like a correlation than a causal relationship.
@@zacharychristy8928 I mean, I could give you a lengthy explanation since you seem so confused, but the reality is it doesn't fucking matter, because at the end of the day it's not about how you feel but about how the majority of men feel, and you have absolutely 0 right to push somebody into being with somebody they don't want to be with.
Haven't heard the term "slag" here in the UK since the early 00s! Sargon bringing it back?
Is it more of a middle class expression
I don’t know where you live but that’s stupidly common here up North.
i like when destiny acts like he grew up in a vastly different era. gaming was not some super nerdy thing in 2007 lol. yeah if you were obsessive and antisocial and 'uncool', but normies had been playing games for well over a decade by then. most women (and people in general) back then didn't like the nerdy obsessive antisocial types, and they still don't. but they liked the chad or normie who casually played smash or sports games with his bros, just as they do now.
very little has changed with that, esp since 2007. yeah there are more girl gamers and even more normies gaming and online now. but it's just a gradual continuation of what was already going on back then. playing videogames in 2007 wasn't seen as some dorky activity like kids in 1983 playing dungeons and dragons in their basement. that's just a myth perpetuated by people who love self-martyrdom/victimhood--hardcore antisocial types who happened to be into vidya taking their experience as friendless virgins and extrapolating that out to the general pop (and blaming their unpopularity on their being gamers and taking pride in their loserdom and building an identity out of being Gamer Nerds--the nerd aspect was the thing people took issue with, not the gaming).