You MIGHT have been cheating for YEARS!
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#Farfa #YuGiOh #Cheating - เกม
Dude, I wish I wasn't half asleep while we were having this discussion, my explanations were so terribly worded LOL
I love you
Take my babies
Hiya coder!
You did great sweetie
Thanks for putting up with farfa's madness for our sake :)
Gotta love children's card game... So simple and straightforward....
@Alu Card and so sarcastic are you XD
Idiots:”It’S fOr KiDs”
Also idiots: “I don’t understand this game, so confusing!”
The kids: “wtf is this boomer bs???”
Gotta love Farfa... So quite and mature
well its just farfa being stupid. "I see some cards together I dont like, so I change that".
If he cant see thats cheating, then he is rather stupid.
@@madsvigan2898 i think you're confusing ethically wrong to cheating. It'd be called cheating if there was a ruling against it, but since there isn't, you'll just come out as a massive chode but not a cheater.
*stacks deck during ROTA search, just to stall. JOKINGLY*
I didn't even KNOW I was stacking!
They sent me no mail no message
If they can do it while playing at a reasonable pace then go for it. Also PSA just call a judge for slow play, just do it, if you think your opponent is slow playing you then they probably are. just call the judge
Jokingly making a video saying you did not stall for time. JOKINGLY
The best way to truly determine whether or not it is cheating is by hiring Dream's rocket scientist to determine whether or not the deck is truly randomized in the event of declumping.
lmao
I'm not a scientist, but do have a physics degree. If artificially affecting probability is considered cheating, then, yes, "declumping" is cheating. Having three cards stuck together is a valid random state. Just because they are the same card does not mean that their arrangement is not the result of a random process. The only way to "declump" them legally would be to simply shuffle the deck without splitting the clumped cards up first. The end result of a properly shuffled deck is still a random state. Mathematically, it should be okay. However, these are physical objects, and I'm sure all of us are familiar with cards or sheets of paper getting stuck together or being mildly attracted to each other. "Declumping" would articially break this kind of interaction. I'm not sure the significance this interaction would actually have on the state of the shuffled deck though. Best case would be to just shuffle, have your opponent cut the deck, and shuffle again.
Edit: lol ignore this, I read another comment saying Konami has stated that a deck must be thoroughly shuffled after any sort of pre-sorting. So "declumping" is okay as long as it's properly shuffled afterward. I haven't played Yu-Gi-Oh in almost 8 years and just randomly stumbled upon this video.
@@aether9083 &&
@@aether9083 g
@@aether9083 *
I love how Coder was Phoenix and Phoenix was Edgeworth
THEY HAD ONE JOB
I think it's cuz Coder was defending and Phoenix was prosecuting
What chat doesn't get is that you could do literally anything to your deck, even stack every single card perfectly how you want them without affecting the end result. This is because if your method of randomization REALLY "randomized" as per the word's definition, the state of the deck prior to the randomization should not affect how random it is after.
Obviously nobody properly randomizes their deck during a duel though (takes like a couple dozen riffle shuffles each time) so Konami is just living in fantasyland where theory always holds perfectly true.
That's exactly the problem though. The fact that declumping works demonstrates that the deck isn't truly random. Obviously we're not after true cryptographic randomness, but effective psuedorandomness is still important, and if declumping effects the result, you're clearly not shuffling you're deck sufficiently, which is why it's cheating. The 'cheat' isn't the stacking, it's the failure to effectively shuffle ,which, for the record, doesn't take dozens of riffles. The average is seven for a 52 card deck to be functionally indistinguishable from true randomness, and less for a smaller deck. So the problem isn't that the deck was stacked, it's that after stacking it, you shuffled it once or twice and maybe cut it, rather than actually shuffling properlly.
Based
@@jsd4574 That fault ultimately falls to your opponent tho, because they're the one who has the final cut + by doing so agrees that the deck is sufficiently randomized. If you are unhappy with how your opponent shuffled their deck, tell them to shuffle it again.
@@EpicKingofFail If you attempt to stack your deck and the opponent fails to properly randomise, they may have been able to prevent it, but you're still the one initiating the cheat and you still get punished for it, not them
Failure of your opponent to undo your stack doesn't excuse you from said stacking
Doesn't the second bullet of "You cannot pre-sort your Deck without thoroughly shuffling the Deck afterwards" imply that it's okay to sort your deck during searching? The implication seems to be that you can do anything you want with card order so long as you shuffle afterwards.
THANK YOU
I was about to make this comment. The part that says “thoroughly shuffling AFTERWORDS” is what sells it for me
Yup, that's correct.
HOWEVER, in order to truly randomize a 40 cards deck you need to perform more than 20 riffle shuffles, which no one does because it would take too long.
Therefore, "declumping" your deck will have an effect on the deck you present to your opponent (which equals to cheating, somewhat).
If your opponent happens to do this (which is very rare), take your sweet time to shuffle their deck
@@DXYS95 homie I don’t know if you understand a riffle shuffle because it’s literally random unless you perform a Farro shuffle which is perfectly spacing your cards one to one. Which takes a lot of precision. You’ll end up randomizing the cards just by having more than one card land in between each as you riffle.
@@burnpisces7733 I don't think you understand shuffle theory. You might want to look into it
"You cannot check or arrange any cards while shuffling", searching not shuffling, I see my entire deck. I see the clump, you can declump. I don't see an issue as long as there is shuffling afterward.
If you separate them, and then, shuffle, they randomize, the random chance of them being clumped together still exists... because its random.
"Deck is stacked order, gets randomized = deck is now random"
"Deck order is confirmed by searching, deck gets declumped, deck gets randomized = deck is now random"
Random chance by definition is an unknown. The deck as long as it is unknown and random how it is currently ordered doesn't truly matter. Even if a game state rewound, and different cards were drawn, the cards could have been anything in the deck. People really need to get the notion of "pre-arranged""fate" out of their system yaknow.
I think this whole debate is because yugioh players have such bad shuffling habits that they think that "declumping" will actually affect the randomization of the deck
@@jadegrace1312 You know i never thought about if i was mana flooded or screwed to play a tutor just to search and while searching to declump then shuffle
If the odds are the same, then why do they bother declumping their own deck in the first place?
Its definitely illegal, and if not; it definitely should be
Because declumping offers peace of mind and can actually save time. I've witnessed people after they search and they see 3 cards stuck together. Since they can choose whatever method to randomize after, they choose to do a quick pile shuffle and then riffle while randomizing after the search eating extra time.
The funny thing is: its isn't uncommon where after they split it up and riffle, they get clumped back together.
Shuffling isn't actually random until like 100 shuffles though, 1 or 2 quick shuffles is most likely not gonna split those cards and at most U may lose 1 of the 3. Are U allowed to rearrange Ur deck at all in Yu-Gi-Oh?
"I interpreted the thing wrong" is the saltiest way to say "you're right".
but what if i was wrong but you're still not right?
I see your point but after having so much arguments IRL saying stuff like this is good enough... beats things like: "you obviously dont get it" or "i dont know how you could understand it that way but it is clearly this way" atleast saying that you interpreted the thing wrong gives a chance of you being wrong and accepting someone else's point... in the end people dont like being wrong no matter what side it is just helps when both try to be more open minded about it.
Anything in the entire *WORLD* to avoid saying; "I was wrong."
He truly is Edgeworth
The reason people call declumping cheating is because it does nothing if you shuffle sufficiently for randomization, but gives you an advantage if you shuffle insufficiently, meaning, from a purely logical standpoint, there is no reason to ever declump unless you plan on cheating.
However, human are not purely Logical, but also emotional beings. Declumping puts your mind at rest, knowing that these 3 aren’t together anymore.
I swear to god Ace Attorney is such a great game and "meme" template! You can make such great things with that! Just as here. Heard Vlad has done this. Well done!!!
Kinda of a shame the guy named Phoenix was the one accusing Farfa, it would make more sense to have Coder as Edgeworth and Phoenix as, well, Phoenix
Vlad is just such a good editor widepeepoHappy
You have to shuffle properly afterwards anyway, so it shouldn't matter
This being illegal implies that the position of cards in your deck while searching stay trackable even after shuffeling, which would conclude that every search gives you illegal information. If the position of a card you "stacked" would be trackable so would the random Nibiru you saw topdeck while going through the deck if it wasnt replaced by the "stacked" card before shuffeling.
It's not so much that it's trackable, it's that he is trying to consciously manipulate the deck to get a more even spread AFTER the randomization.
If he's "properly" randomizing the deck, he shouldn't need to declump before randomizing.
@@LucianDevine this is the correct point. If anyone is actually doing any decent job of shuffling the deck, I WANT my clump to stay, because there's such a small chance of them sticking together after thorough shuffling.
@@Garchomp4LiFee The thing is: it does not matter if you de-clump or not in the first place, assuming you randomize properly. If it somehow makes you FEEL better to de-clump before you randomize, go for it. Doing so (AND not doing so) will not affect the end-result, if, again, randomized properly.
There are effects that send you a group of cards to the bottom of the deck in any order you want, I think Konami knows
Whatever you do to your deck, riffle shuffle 7 times and its fully randomized! So the declumping doesn't even matter.
Light played speedrun
I mean, it does but not enough to matter
And then the opponent calls the judge for stalling while you are on your 5th or 6th shuffle.
If it doesnt matter then why do it :)
And people didn't take into account that clumping might happen again after the last cut...
Don't mind me, I'm just "declumping" my Harpie's Feather Duster to the top and my Red-Eyes Fusion to the bottom
And then your opponent shuffles your deck and you draw red-eyes fusion anyway
@@louisfriend9592 this
If it doesn't matter, if you declump the Deck, why even do it in the first place?
There are just 2 options:
A: The declumping lowers your chance to draw the card 2x in a row -> its stacking because you manipulate your Deck.
B: After the shuffling process your Deck is randomized and the prior declumping has no effect on your deck order -> why even declump in the first place, if it doesn't matter?
It's option B and our human brains think that declumping influences the randomization. If properly randomized, it doesn't matter, but our brain doesn't like it.
Exactly this. You're shuffling anyway. That would do the "declumping." And randomized doesn't mean varied.
If you were to flip a coin 10 times, it wouldn't be a perfect Heads -> Tails pattern. It's still entirely possible to get Heads 5 times in a row or only get Tails.
For me is just a mania, seen 3 card togheter while playing just triggers me, so i declump them just to calm myself then i riffle shuffle like 10 times and pass the deck to my opponent for cutting, so yeah the acty of shuffling the deck maskes the declumping miningless.
@@dkyu-gi-oh Unless you sit there doing a full shuffle at least 7 times every time you shuffle, then you aren't guy randomizing the cards, and the new locations depend on the previous locations. This is why casinos are constantly shuffling with shuffling machines.
@@Ms666slayer that's a really good explanation.
Honestly. This sounds like something a Dragon Link user would cry about.
Vlad is doing a great job man. I love this content since I dont have enough time to join them streams anymore (studying etc). I hope this will never end :)
I would absolutely do the same, but if the deck is getting 100% randomised afterwards then it really shouldn’t matter as they shouldn’t be together anymore kekw
when shuffling, depending on the method used there is a chance that those 3 cards happen to stay together, whilst not likely it can and does happen, by moving the cards apart you then know for 100% fact that they where not together before shuffling. when I play and do any search effect and see cards clumped together I often split them up and then make sure that I heavily shuffle the deck
@@TheLiverpoolOwen ... So then you're purposefully altering the state of your deck order then. There's either no point in doing this, or you shouldn't be doing it since it helps your odds.
know people be lazy shuffling though, sometimes riffle shuffle pass & opponent tap deck, cut pass back, and that was pre covid
@@joshuagroom7068 the 3rd option is the cards are legitimately stuck together by static or gunk on the sleeves, in which case I suppose you should change sleeves, but that's not feasible in the middle of a duel. Other option is player superstition, in which case it also doesn't really matter, so who cares if they do or don't do it?
@@TheMatt_SD There are two reasons to do it: superstition and cheating.
He JOKINGLY stacked his deck
If there's a "Shuffle" button that randomizes the deck, no amount of stacking before pressing that button will affect random chance. Phoenix is super wrong.
However, trying to "De-clump" your deck by separating cards is you trying to cheat. You're failing at it because the shuffling should undo your influence on your deck, but the intention is to influence your draws beyond random chance.
this is probably the best way to put it.
I agree that it has an influence on the shuffling, but that doesn't automatically rule it as cheating.
Different methods of shuffling have varying effectiveness, the "right" ones are the ones pointed out by Konami.
By experience, shuffling quickly in certain ways makes the deck have not only 3 copies _very_ close to eachother, but also in a similar order regarding more than 5 cards (specially notable when you shuffle a deck that has 3 copies of each card divided by groups, like starters or extenders, one after another), and yet most judges deem it sufficient. In cases like these, separating cards can help out spreading randomization more evenly throughout the deck, resulting in a "more randomized" spread than it otherwise would have been.
Of course, this regards shuffling after separating cards and the opponent's cut.
@@gtdfg4594 I think the issue is more about the intention of the action the player is taking. They are putting their cards in a certain way that they deem could give them an advantage by making it, in their minds, less likely to, "Draw multiples of the same card." The shuffling afterwards really isn't the issue. It's what they're doing mechanically with intent to produce a more "ideal" outcome.
Well, no, if your deck is going to be thoroughly shuffled afterwards and then your opponent is also going to thoroughly shuffle it, then it really shouldn't matter.
Its not something i do since i just don't pay attention to the order of my cards when i'm searching through my deck (its gonna get randomized afterwards anyways). I do think it affects random chance to some degree, but as far as what's currently written in the rule book, i don't see an issue with this whatsoever and it personally doesn't matter to me. The deck is gonna get thoroughly shuffled anyways. I think its the responsibility of the judge to rule when someone is stacking, and this doesn't exactly look like stacking, so i have no real issue with this. And if an opponent takes issue with it, they can spend as looooong as they're allowed to to shuffle your deck and ensure randomness.
That being said, i'm not a judge. I'm just a casual player, lol.
@@four-en-tee oh I agree it really doesn't matter if the deck is getting properly randomized afterwards, realistically I disagree with this rule, but my viewpoints are not what is at hand here. We are talking about how konami judges are supposed to interpret cheating as per the official policy docs. Like I said the issue is not randomization, but what the intent of the player is, which is a huge part of how they determine what constitutes cheating.
This might just be the most "AKCHUALLY" ruling discussions i have ever witnessed lmao
Should have included the hyper intense music (cornered), along with the side deck argument for the finisher. Love the video. 😇
It clearly says that you CANNOT pre-sort your deck WITHOUT thoroughly shuffling afterwards. This therefore implies that you CAN pre-sort your deck IF you thoroughly shuffle afterwards. Declumping is technically pre-sorting - so you are 100% fine to do this.
how many people do this and then do not thoroughly shuffle, so we as opponents should thoroughly shuffle every time they give us an option to cut... bunch of time waste.
I feel like the point that should have been raised is. "Why are you separating those cards?" You have no need to separate them as you are about to shuffle? The shuffle as discussed randomise your deck so there location at that point is irelevant. The only reason to separate cards would be to alter the percentage of drawing the same cards or like for like cards togther.
Which at that point if your alternating your deck to give you a better result during a shuffle you're soft cheating I feel.
Yeaa EXACTLY.
This!
the thing is the same result can be achieved by shuffling your deck really thoroughly and nobody has an issue with that. declumping is just a shortcut to save time.
unless of course you prefer to sit there and let your opponent shuffle until they know they are no longer clumped (which is legal)
@@fazdingo29 the shuffle should always be enough to randomise the deck. So there is no reason to "de clump" or "clump" cards togther. If the deck is randomised it's random. Unless you explain what reason you have for de clumping other then increasing the probability of not seeing certain cards togther? But that would means your manipulating the chances of a better outcome
@@fazdingo29 yea dude I'd rather let homie shuffle till he's content than watch him declump. Something bout that doesn't sit right w me
Phoenix is probably the same type of judge that would rule your opponent can't chain their shadoll monsters effects if you had Magical Meltdown activated and you super poly'd their monsters away.
splitting multiple copies to declump could be stacking _if_ it wasnt for the randomization. The shuffling could declump for you or reclump them after the split. splitting the copies before the shuffle shouldnt affect whether they remain clumped. the only use for it, then, is to stall.
if the heart of the cards want you to draw the same card three times in a row, you have to have faith
Lovely work on this one. Had a big stupid smile on my face during the Ace Attorney bit.
when phoenix says that if you declump and then shuffle it affects randomization: it doesnt.
if it's randomized you can't trace back to the original state.
and once you declump and shuffle (randomly) you can't "de-shuffle" to get to the original card sequence
I love that farfa is doing the floss dance but only half way correct, it has that cool uncle who tries a bit too hard with memes but doesn't take it too seriously vibe
I think this is more of a Moral question than a legal one.
IF truly randomized, why declump it anyway? If you declump it, you are expecting that the randomizing wont be so random, so you are actually stacking.
This is more of a problem in Remote format, where the opponent can't shuffle your deck.
In real life, the problem will be more of the opponents than yours, as he can always shuffle your deck which might result in clumping.
Good point.
Cause shuffling is not a true randomization
"You cannot pre-sort your Deck (Sorting Monsters/Spells/Traps, etc.) **Without thoroughly shuffling the deck afterwards.**"
That last bit ends the entire argument right there
but your telling the yugioh community to actually read LOL
bro, can I just say...I LOVE this editing. God bless Vlad.
above the blue highlighted bit. that's what you need to read. that's the exact thing you're refering to in this conversation. in other words as long as you thoroughly shuffle afterwards you are fine since you are refering to pre-sorting essentially while doing your search.
Farfa flossing is by far leagues more sus than him declumping, that's for sure.
This is such good editing CLAP CLAP Vlad!!!
Yo good job on the editing of this video Vlad, this is well done.
you can randomise in 5 stacks irl often putting 'stacked' declumped cards back in a clump, at least when decks were still being touched at all xP , it's why pile shuffle followed by riffle shuffle is good
Farfa JOKINGLY stacked his deck
This discussion was the Schrödinger’s cat thesis of Yugioh.
except for the people that can read, however hard that is
Considering that you are doing some action outside of the search effect you can be called out for slow play since you are not immediately resolving the “search effect in play” as there is no other play or action u can commit to while searching…
Was looking for a video where you talked about a specific pro cheating, this aint the one I remember but Yooooo, if you read this comment you have slimmed down since you made this video. Good job man.
I asked judges about this and as long as you shuffle after it isnt cheating
the thing is, you can also declump on the first 2 riffle shuffles knowing about where the clumped cards are
You gotta spread those aleisters out when they are clumped 😇
spread aleister you say?
Nah m8 back to back aleister is the way for sure
Wide spread aleister
*A L E I S T E R*
"You cannot *check* or arrange cards while *shuffling*"
I like how Phoenix mention the deck shuffling methods and you cannot check or arrange any cards while shuffling but fails to see the most important part in the rules "You cannot pre-sort your deck without throroughly shuffing the deck afterwards" meaning you can declump your cards but you need to shuffle next, reading is not that hard, copium.
Staring
Distantcoder as Phoenix Wright
Phoenix as Miles Edgeworth
And farfa as judge
pokemon tcg has specific rules against 'declumping', so it would be cheating in that game, but the konami rules make it very unclear - i think what coder is saying makes sense, but if konami wants to clarify it they should either specifically say declumping is not allowed, or do nothing i guess
Is there a rule on declumping because Im reading through the doc and I can't see any
@@dandok3996 Their isnt, hes just spreading false information
If they had that rule, the only thing that confirms is that the rule-maker had no idea what they were doing, because that does not make any sense.
if they are clumped, shuffling a few times should split them up, there for if DE clumping is done, then you might know how many draws you might need to draw those cards,. even if you shuffle after words, you could have just shuffled and still get random
I am pretty sure that Dzeef said not to do this in a "your first Tournament" video, which is probably where chat got it from.
Damn Dzeef
The thing about randomness is that you can sometimes have 3 of the same card next to each other. You are making the deck less random by 'declumping'.
That would only be true if you did not shuffle the deck after doing so. If you randomize the cards, they WILL be random. It does not matter where you put them. If you stack your entire deck and then shuffle it about 7x , you're good. that's not stacking or "affecting the randomness".
Being random is a binary thing. Either it is, or it is not random. You changing the position of cards in the deck PRIOR to that process has no impact on the end-result.
Judge Farfa! need more of these.
Imagine that every time you search a card from your deck to your hand your opponent pile shuffles your deck to randomize your deck.
I have been farmed for content what the hell???
>Does cringe dancing on cam to flex
me: This guy’s a legend
I do the second situation with Graff and Cir always. If I’m looking for Graff and find Cir first, I put Cir to the front so I can grab him easier if Graff resolves.
Changing the initial state before the randomization process (shuffle), should not change the randomness of the result. Of course that the end result will be diferent, but is still random... so, whatever.
The only thing you may argue is about how random your randomization process actually is..
even then saying how random something is is the same as saying that something is close to infinite, it's either random or it isn't and it isn't actually random at all, that just happens to be the buzzword that people typically use incorrectly. the term that should be used is uncertain and since one way or another the final result is uncertain it doesn't matter whether you declump or not therefore it's allowed
While this may not be cheating it is definitely a waste of time. If the deck is going to be randomized anyway there is no reason to spend time "declumping". I feel like this just enables slow play.
Nobody is putting a deck in a shuffling machine though, if stuff is clumped it could stick together through a halfhearted shuffling, especially if 2-3 sleeves are stuck to each other.
In theory none of this should happen but sleeves wear out, get sticky or have static all the time and most shuffling methods don't fix this by themselves.
it isn't a waste of time because you aren't technically randomizing your deck by the definition of random. in most cases those cards will not be declumped during the average attempt at shuffling
@@fazdingo29 I understand what you and Luminous are saying but my issue with that argument is that you can't prove that those clumped cards would not have naturally been the cards you would draw. Once you start deliberately moving cards around the deck ceases to be random because randomness implies a lack of purpose or intent with the way you are shuffle. If you see three ash blossoms together and move them around because you don't like that they're in close proximity then that is not random. I don't want this to turn into a war, because this is just a game so I'll leave it at that. We can just agree to disagree. Have a nice day.
Okay but consider that artifacts are literally illegal to set in the S/T zone
Why though?
Effects overcome game mechanics :)
missed opportunity having phoenix be on the left side in the ace attorney bit, since that's where the protag *phoenix* wright usually is
Not that dzeeff is the source of judge info, but he mentioned that It was legal to “declump” while searching
I declump constantly, the deck is fully shuffled after so ho gives a shit, I'm not more likely to draw that card now
It depends on who does it really. If someone is known to keep track of and has a less than healthy sense of competition then they may need a bit more monitoring.
@@firepuppies4086 then thats the opponents fault for not cutting shuffling his/hers opponents deck after a shuffle. You are allowed to cut, shuffle a deck after your opponent is done with searching/randomizing their deck.
@@SkumleBones issue is, my statement applies to the opponent who is cutting.
@@firepuppies4086 their are going to be cheaters, but the game literally give you the tools for this specific kind of cheating. If you dont like cheaters dont play these types of games. Just like anything, if you dont pay attention and or look away, thats the moment anyone will need, this is what you mom teaches you so your wallet doesnt get stolen, come on now....Like any law, its not a safeguard....its your responsibility to protect yourself. Nothing you can do about shitty people. All you can do is abuse the tools given to you to safeguard urself, hence .... shuffle the deck, dont trust anyone. But if anything I think its just sad that people have less common sense now.
@@SkumleBones ... did you just say not to play the game if you don't like cheaters? That does not look good on the game, if you are at THAT point.
My question is, if de-clumping or rearranging cards before shuffling & randomizing the deck doesn’t matter, then why bother to de-clump in the first place?
If you truly believe it doesn’t matter nor it changes the odds then why are you doing it? I think that’s why it comes off as disingenuous or suss to some.
love the ace attorney template for the debate! good job vlad :)
I believe the rule has to deal with slow play. And the reason why some judge staff say you can only move cards dealing with current search/effect. However it doesnt apply for cards that resolve one by one like toon table of contents where as its reversed. You in theory could stack 100% of the deck then give it to your opponent but if enough time passes during this event the player"stacking" can be charged with slow play.
Farfa betrays cardmarket! How could you?!?! You're a european, you're one of us!!!! You were supposed to fight them, not join them!
If you're insisting that shuffling at the end randomizes your deck properly, then there would be no reason to declump your cards. You're declumping them to spread them out because no shuffle method is perfect. Just saying. Bring me in on VC
I mean I would agree with you unless the cards are actually stuck together for whatever reason and then separating makes sense since they may remain together. I have been in virtual games where my opponent drew Ash Blossom every turn when I checked the replay and to be frank from that standpoint I kinda like declumping.
Cards can be stuck together unnaturally, eg. due to moisture, when they're put into the deck. Ash blossoms are a playset, you usually put them together when you put them into the deck, it absolutely makes sense you want them to be separated before you shuffle, because otherwise your shuffle isn't legit.
people are lazy & don't thoroughly shuffle even though they should, the opponent's shuffle is their responsibility in maintaining the gamestate by ensuring the deck is getting properly randomised, and people who are good at it can stack/declump while shuffling while looking like a completely normal shuffle, so even though declumping like this looks more sus any opponent should really be trying as hard to randomise the deck as though they knew 100% the opponent's deck had been stacked
the biggest issue here is the time rules, particularly towards end of time the randomness of the game state is maintained worse & worse as players rush through steps/attempt to at least be seen to be going through actions quickly so that they don't lose to a judge call on stalling
but the current time rules mess with the integrity of the game in a bunch of ways anyway, even without this
@@igotveemon For unnatural causes like that I totally agree. With that said I feel like this should be done before a match right? My point pertains to when you shuffle before a duel, and by random change copies of a card are clumped. In that case it's perfectly valid in the definition of randomness. Randomness does not equal spread apart exclusively.
@@Anans1_Spyd3r agreed with all your points. If the cards are unnaturally stuck, then yeah of course separate and clean your sleeves! The sad thing is with virtual sims their "randomness" actually means all cards are spread out. It's a fun excersize in a coding program. Have the computer randomly generte numbers between 1 and 1000 a total of 1000 times. Then separate those numbers into 4 columns (1-250, 251-500, 501-750, 751-1000). You will see that these four groups all end up being 25% of the total numbers meaning it's not random. These virtual sims use the same computing logic sadly.
The second point in the shuffling section kills whole its stacking argument.
I sometimes just pick a card and put it on top lmao. But it is still random as I don't have anyway of knowing what said card is.
Splitting "clumps" of cards is, by mathematical study, making the deck MORE random when you shuffle it afterwards, actually.
Wow my comment gave Farfa an excuse to pump out content! POGGERS KEKW monkaW strimer man
LUV VLAD .. thanks for making farfa youtube active
3:07 your opponent doesn't shuffle your deck afterwards. They only cut. And you can make it that They cut in your favor. I have created shuffling methods that can allow you to stack your deck after searching and shuffling and your opponent cutting. It's wrong to use these methods. But they exist.
Farfa biggest cheater in yugioh history
It actually is written in the rulebook to NOT do that, but everyone does
I used to declump out of habit in Weiss Schwarz, a game where damage is entirely dependent on the deck state, and a judge friend told me to stop doing that. According to him it is ultimately up to the judges' interpretation of the rules so it could be up to your luck if your opponent decides to shark you and how the judge you meet interprets the rulebook. So just to be on the safe side I entirely cut out this habit to avoid any and all bullshit this could bring about.
Also why isn't Phoenix just Phoenix lol.
Oh man this topic...fun...if I remember right judges like to complain that adjusting positions of cards while searching even if you shuffle after and your opponent cuts the deck is still manipulating the deck to your advantage. Some will let it go, but most will say you aren't allowed to adjust the position of any cards during a search for any reason as it is a manipulation of the randomization.
No matter what you do to the cards in your deck, pre-shuffle is legal. Since shuffle re-randomizes the deck, as long as the decks isn’t manipulated during the shuffle step.
If you said during the search, you said “I’m gonna split these cards” split the cards, then move to shuffle step it’s legal.
I've had like 3 judges rule that i can do that. My opponent gets the opportunity to shuffle/cut my deck after so there isnt a way for me to stack
If your Opponent gets to Shuffle Afterwards, and deems it Shuffled, aka Random Enough it gets the Pass from the opponent them, I deffinitly dont see an Issue
but to each his or her own
I see absolutely no problem with this. If before my match I can put my cards in any order I want before the initial shuffle then I can declump when I'm searching. They cannot really stop me from putting the cards in any order before the match as I can even fo it before arriving at the event, unless they take your deck from you when you arrive and only give it back upon your Match starting and they place the cards randomly
So I didn't play the game right as a kid, and getting into now is hilarious because of all there is to learn.
Me and my younger brother are pretty much learning the game together lol even though I played the game when I was his age for a few years.
I always did this though because if the cards are shuffled after you did it then they are randomized you don't know where they are heck those three cards you move apart could be right back next to each other lol.
I don’t bother declumping during searches because my cards end up being clumped after the shuffle anyway
It's like when u play the first duel and your Deck is perfectly stacked how u want it to be. You shuffle at the beginning and nothing is said, but when u do this while u play, the shuffling isnt enough anymore? 🤣
I feel like this is a great example of skill differences to be honest. Like apply this too a mirror match and declumping could give you a better chance of not drawing multiple dead copies. Whereas someone who doesn't do that would have a greater issue with drawing multiples of the same card. Just like how you can have 3 copies of a searcher in a mirror but it doesn't matter if one person searches the wrong shit everytime.
You can't move cards when rota is being used. The duel has started. You can't grab a brick and put it on a bottom or top to avoid from being drawn when your opponent shuffles and cuts. It increases the chance of the brick to be lost in the middle by putting it on the ends.
You should be able to grab your 3 nibirus during side deck. Place them let say top middle and bottom... then proceed to shuffle. Then your opponent shuffles and the game starts. At this point, you have no more knowledge of where the 3 nibirus are since they have been shuffle previous to the game.
If you use rota, you can take a look at your deck.. it's not illegal and if you noticed cards are stacked.. like your 3 nibirus in the same spot. You can shuffle the deck to attempt to randomize them into possible draws. However, you are not allowed to just grab the 3 nibirus and hand pick them into different locations. This most be done on a shuffle technique without knowledge of the cards positions.
So how did no one mention that the policy straight up says you can’t pre-sort your deck without thoroughly shuffling afterward. To me that means you can rearrange your deck during the search as long as you shuffle and your opponent shuffles after the fact
I always pondered over this for years even tho I haven't played since like 2012. Glad this video came out and gave me some closure lmao
And what did you walk away with? I’m still questioning if it’s cheating or not hahaha
Thats mana weaving in mtg. It shares a similar concept but as long as the deck is thoroughly randomized afterwords its fine. As long as after moving the cards around that they cannot be traced after randomization then its fine. If it is not sufficiently randomized it can then it leans on the side of cheating
if the shuffling is actually random, it doesn't matter what order the cards were in beforehand
if it's not random, the problem is with the shuffling, not the order of the cards beforehand
IrL if I see my cards together after a search I shuffle 3x in hopes of separating them after resolving
I do something similar when doing side deck, I see a lot of peopel put their side deck 3'ofs all on top of their deck and them shuffle it, what I do is just put them at random intervals in the deck and shuffle it.
This is grade A rules lawyering... Since there is no set duration of shuffling the same effect could be accomplished through prolonged thorough shuffling. By splitting the clumps up you no longer have to take so much extra time shuffling longer to break them apart. The end result of a declumped shuffle and an extended shuffle is the same. So you got a choice, let someone declump and take 15 seconds to shuffle, or force them to take a minute or more shuffling using the official method of shuffling that ensures no clumping which is separating the cards one at a time into 8 piles and then stacking them again in a random order.
Also, the the way the rules are written you can't check(see what it is) or arrange(move a small number of cards) any cards WHILE shuffling. You also can't pre-sort your deck without shuffling it. That last rule implies that you can presort your deck before a shuffle. And I would call de-clumping pre-sorting if we're going down that road.
The Phoenix Wright courtroom was killing me lol
I kinda get what the chet callers are talking about. In the scenario where there so happens to be 3 card stuck together than the duelist would be incentivize to split them because this would effectively mean that this three of card would either always be stacked together and drawn 3 times in a row or they would never actually see this three of card because the cards are always moving together.
it doesn't because it's going to be shuffled anyway
@@Marcusjnmc depends. Most people shuffle by clumps. If you observe shuffling amongst most people they aren’t shuffling very precisely. Unlike something like power shuffling. Although in some advance cases power shuffling can be used to stack. Regardless. It’s pretty petty to call out uncumbling if your opponent is given the option to shuffle the deck.
a good resolution that should solve that issue is:
in the end you can just pile shuffle after looking through your deck and care about placing every card stacked to each other in another pile so you would put your 3 ash blossom onto separate piles, e.g. pile1, pile2 and pile3
by doing this you should not get any problems with the policy since you "declunp" your deck by pile shuffling it as it is allowed
then your opponent can counter pile shuffle you putting the declumped cards back in a pile, it's better to make the spread cards more unknown through random placement followed by riffle
@@Marcusjnmc oh well I forgot to mention that I personally always shuffle my cards after piling them and then give them to my opponent to either cut/shuffle or pile shuffle again
Lets compare this to another scenario that has a different purpose but would fall into same category, say your searching for rota you place a stratos on the bottom of your deck, place a bubbleman on the bottom of your deck, place a shadow mist on the bottom of your deck, place a vyon on the bottom of your deck and shuffle through the cards you placed on the bottom of your deck while your deciding which one your going to add to your hand, you make your choice place it on the table to show your opponent and you place the the other 3 cards randomly into your deck facedown, shuffle your deck and pass your deck to your opponent to shuffle/ cut. Now lets say your searching your deck for a card again and all 9 of your handtraps and clumped together and all your spell cards are also clumped together so you shuffle your hand traps into your spells and then shuffle the pile of spells/ hand traps into the rest of your deck so your deck no longer looks like you organized it for a deck profile, add your card, then shuffle your deck like normally and pass to your opponent to shuffle/ cut. As far as I've seen it ruled, you can move cards around your deck whenever you go into your deck for any effect that will result in your deck being shuffled. What it all comes down to is your opponent always has the option to shuffle and cut your deck, if you see your opponent moving cards around in their deck its your responsibility to make sure you shuffle their deck effectively. Lets even say your opponent goes into their deck to add a card and you see them moving 2 or 3 cards from throughout their deck and placing them towards the top of their deck then they do it again and place them 7 or 8 cards from the top of their deck and they repeat this moving cards around and placing them every 5 or 6 cards away untill they stack their deck how they want all the way through their whole deck, they dont shuffle but instead just cut their deck and hand it to you. What are you going to do call a judge and say "he chet he stack his whole deck then didnt shuffle" or are you just going to shuffle the deck until you feel its been effectively shuffled, maybe pile shuffle a couple times? Even if you do call jadge and accuse your opponent of stacking first things hes going to ask you is did he offer you his deck to shuffle/cut? This is why you always shuffle your opponents deck, they could have stacked their deck before they sat down at the table with you or while they were siding, there are shuffling techniques where you can move around groups of 5 cards so it looks likes their shuffling but there just moving around 8 stacks of 5 prestacked perfect hands where if all you do is cut your opponent deck their still going to draw at least 3 or 4 of their stacked cards.
To me it always made sense that it's fine to do this by the simple fact that if we assume it's illegal, you could just pretend to not have found what you were searching for, shuffle exactly where clumped cards are, and etc. It might seem tough at the beginning but with some practice you will be able to do it effortlessly. There isn't really a way to prove someone is declumping so they should just allow it. I even see no problem to lay out every single card in your deck and stack it however you want so long as you shuffle afterwards. I don't even remotely understand why people think that shouldn't be allowed.