Primary Donate Alternate Donate Long Hose Short Hose
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 ก.ย. 2019
- Primary Donate Alternate Donate Long Hose Short Hose
The controversial topic of donating air. The how to, when to, and the infamous long hose discussion made simple. In this video, Instructor Bryan Stafford discusses the pro's and con's of donating both you primary and your alternate to an out of air diver underwater.
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Thanks for this very practical and balanced view on the long/short & primary/alternate discussion.
Keep up the great videos.
Alec
Thank You Alec. Hope all is well with you guys up north. I really enjoy all of your videos as well. Not sure if you are planning on coming to DEMA this year in Orlando, but if you are, hit us up. We would love to meet up and possibly do a collaboration video with you.
Thanks for jumping in clearing it up personally if I run out of air I want my buddy to have sense enough to give me some air I don’t care how long or what color the hose is.
You're welcome Ivory, and we agree, any air is better than no air.
So impressed by the quality of your content. You get the point across and explain why.
Hello Adrian Martinez, glad you like our videos. Our goal here at Lake Hickory Scuba is to help divers grow, and to educate on the practical side of diving more than specific philosophies.
Fantastic video. Really educational.
Appreciated it.
Glad you liked the video Luiz Carlos Laba.
Liked your video and balanced approach to donating either primary or alternate. As a BSAC UK trained diver our default is alternate donate when training but I can see the value of being able to feel comfortable with primary donate and it's something I am considering.
Thanks Suzanne McCallum, glad you liked our video.
You are the first instructor that preaches donating the primary vs. the alternate. I can see the benefits of either but I've gone through NAUI and BSAC training and have talked with PADI instructors who all stress give up the Alternate first.
Hello Mike Ramsey, we encourage all divers to use the method that suits them the best, and to use the method that makes them feel the most comfortable. In our experience though, we have found that donating the primary is just as safe, and in most cases more practical. It all comes down to gear configuration.
Good to see primary donate gaining some traction in mainstream. Coming back to SCUBA after a while off I did a lot of research on gear etc and ran into the *GASP* DIR stuff. Primary donate just made sense. It's a little more cumbersome on the boat but not that bad, and not at all once you're in the water. Either way you go, be sure to properly review each others gear with your buddy so you understand what is what on each other!
You make a great point Chris, always review with your buddy before you splash in.
The dive shop I am affiliated with has a setup unlike any I have seen in most of my travels. We have our alternate hooked up to the first stage on our left. Primary is the only hose/regulator on the right side. That way we teach our students that air is always on our right. In addition, when we are teaching an Out of Air scenario to our students we are squared up with the student where we can teach them how to maintain control of a panicked or out of air scenario. I've done several setups and seen the pros and cons of each. I really like my current configuration because it aids in teaching taking control of the situation, maintaining that control, and not fumbling around with hoses getting in the way.
The key to any setup is proper communication before the dive. This way everyone knows what to do during an emergency.
The first time I had to donate air for real, I was in a traditional-style BCD and used an integrated octo-inflator. We were at about 60' in the middle of a very dense, large giant kelp bed doing transect studies. The out of air diver was calm and the air share got set up just fine. However, we had no choice but to go straight up. We could not swim through the kelp to the boat through the kelp front to front. So, we ended up at the surface which was matted with kelp. We then had to fight out way over and through the kelp, even with survey reels and slates clipped on us. It took nearly an hour to make it out of the kelp bed and to the boat. Had I been in a BP/W with a seven foot hose, we could have easily swam through the kelp bed, single file, to the boat in less than a minute. I switched over before my next dive.
The second time I had to donate air for real, I had the long hose and the out of air diver took it easily when I pushed it towards him. Then, we had lots of options and, because he was very large and very close to panic, I felt much better being able to be at a distance and not directly in his face (and within his reach).
Hello Oren Noah, we are glad to hear that both of your incidences were successful in rescuing your buddy. Great job.
Thanks Bryan! Also the alt is corded around the neck so makes sense to give pri . But full-face situation you would have to pull it .
Glad you liked the video Searching 4.
Spot on .. many thanks
You are very welcome Daveinstructor, glad you liked the video.
Good info, and with any gear Configuration anyone chooses its important to practice, practice till it becomes second nature.
You are correct Rocky Hernandez, practice is the key to all configurations.
Here is my thoughts. Under normal circumstances I'm not inclined to give up my primary. However, a panicked diver will act in an unprodectible manner. My instructor taught me this during my rescue diver course. She first played the part of the stressed diver, indicating she was low on air. I gave her my octo and all was good. A little while later while conducting a lost diver senario she played a panicked diver, coming at me from behind and above, knocking my mask over while grabbing my primary. I let her have my primary, transitioned to my safe second, straightened and cleared my mask. The long and short, I agree that we need to be skilled enough to to provide air from either source and adapt to the situation at hand with confidence.
As far as long hose or short. I can see the use of a long hose, but I haven't experienced a need. That being said, my experience is with training or practice, not actual out of air, nor have I done any diving in an overhead environment.
Sounds like you successfully completed your Rescue Diver Course. Congratulations.
Interesting. I do my open water dive this weekend. I felt like it was strange at the confined dive that we were taught to show the out of air diver the regulator on our body, but have then grab for it. Handing them a regulator mouthpiece pointed at them makes more sense to me regardless if the primary/alternate argument. I feel like it’s setting yourself up to have your regulator snatched because the out of air diver may not see you “showing them where the alternate source is” cause they’re... out of air.
Hello Caleb Mcelhaney, A lot of Instructors will have their own teaching method. We prefer forthe donating divers to be proactive, and to assist the out of air diver quickly.
I personally like the idea of the primary donate with long hose but i dive full face mask so can't really do that as you pointed out in the video
Hello C Williams, this is why I still teach both methods.
Great video, as always! What is your opinion on Combination Octopus/inflator?
Hello Miguel Vidal, personally, I have never been a huge fan of them. Don't be confused though, I do trust them, just never really had a practical purpose for them. The biggest argument for them is the weight being better for travel. My travel regulators are very lightweight to begin with, and all my travel regulators have miflex hoses. So I still don't currently have a purpose for you. We do have several staff members that use them though.
On my dive trip to Florida, we were doing a safety stop and my instructor grab my octopus from me and I thought he was out of air. When we got back on the boat, he told me good job and Mark ( my instructor ) wanted to see if I was paying attention and I passed. I found out he wasn't really out of air. In my open water class, we were taught to donate our backup regulator to an out of air diver. One thing I learned from that dive is to be ready for something to go wrong and how to deal with it.
That is great advice. Always be prepared for any situation.
Just a quick question , why do we run an alternate hose that's longer, if we donate our primary, why not use same length hoses on both regs?
Hello ksm8119, that is a great question, and one that should be directed to the manufacturers. Before primary donate was more commonly recognized after the invention of the alternate, we were all taught to always leave the primary in your mouth no matter what. The good news is, you can always buy custom length hoses and replacethe longer one if you desire.
I think this has been blown out of proportion a little, sad to hear Alec has deleted his video, love to hear his advice, obviously he is very experienced in scuba and has some great tips and tricks. Plenty of space in the world of TH-cam for different opinions on air donating, not sure any one way is correct like you said. Cheers from the UK, love the channel 👍
Thank you vauxsleeper for the kind words, and we agree, the controversy was blown way out of proportion.
also i see how you made a quick connect to your full face regulator , can that be done for a normal regulator so i can switch between 2 of them with ease. what is your take on that
or maybe keep a spare regulator in my bcd pocket for when it fails i can easily switch them out and continue on with the dive
Yes you can do that with standard second stages as well.
whats a good intermidiate regulator to strat off with for recreational diving , not a starter but a long term partner
Hello Crescent City Color, there are way to many options to mention here. My suggestion is to check with you local dive center and see what they offer. There are plenty on the market that can meet your specific budget, but keeping the regulator serviced can be costly. This is the biggest benefit of buying local. Here at our shop some of our budget regulators that we really like is the Mares Dual ADJ 52X, and the Mares Fusion 72X. Great quality for a reasonable price. Both are less than 5 years old in the Mares line, and parts will be available for many years to come.
Quick response to the now deleted video. To me the fact that you see so many Air 2s, Safe Seconds, or whatever name is used, I think primary donate has been cemented as a possible option for recreational divers. They don't necessarily need a long hose, but they do need a longer hose than the standard 28" hose that comes with most primary regs, and that longer hose will necessitate different hose routing, like under the armpit.
But as a long hose diver I don't find it to be a annoyance in recreational diving.
Hello Team Peg Leg, we have never really had an issue with standard length hoses for primary donate, especially in recreational diving. But we agree with you, when routed just right, and a diver trains properly with it, the long hose is definitely not an annoyance, just not always practical. I use one when I need one.
@@LakeHickoryScuba A 28" primary donate hose does work if you are just trying to get to the surface. But I can't imagine that it would be very optimal if you are trying to make you way up an anchor line in a current, or trying to inflate a SMB.
While on a recreational dive, inflating an SMB underwater is the last thing on my mind. Safety Stops are never required, only strongly encouraged, thus no need to shoot an SMB. Getting to the surface safely, establishing positive buoyancy will always take priority in my book. Once we are at the surface, then I can focus on deploying an SMB. As an Instructor we routinely use an ascent line with our students during their evaluations, where they perform an ascent while sharing air, and we have never had an issue with maintaining contact with the line. When you do it 7 days a week for a living, its not as difficult as it might seem.
@@LakeHickoryScuba With the boat traffic and current in South Florida inflating a SMB is highly recommended. You can easily be swept out of sight before you surface.
Also in your video you mention that you rarely have students with Air 2s. Thus you probably rarely have students primary donating a short hose. With a standard setup with the octo having a 40" hose you don't have an issue. It is with the Air 2 and having the other diver right in your face with a standard length 28" primary hose that it can become an issue.
As you can see in the video, we were not directly in each others face. Even though we don't train many students with an integrated octo, in the last 31 years of being in the industry I have trained my fair share of divers with them. In the late 90's the shop I worked for, all of us Instructors used the Sherwood Shadow (which was a reversed Minimus) Integrated Inflator / Octo. In regards to donating a short hose, they all donate a short hose in a standard system. The Primary is shorter than the Octo. When I teach Sidemount, my students are trained to always donating the one they are breathing from, even if this is from their left cylinder with a 22 inch hose. Its not difficult with a little bit of practice, and it just adds another tool to your tool box to help you make it back to the surface safely.
Great video, what brand is your full face mask and how is it set up?
Hello fancis bevacqua, I am currently using the Ocean Reef Space Extender. Here is a video showing you how I have it set up. th-cam.com/video/6YweWvKvKq4/w-d-xo.html, th-cam.com/video/lj42uhlyqA8/w-d-xo.html
Brian, when storing your alternate on a necklace, how do you keep it from free flowing? If just bought a BP/W (from diving the Hydros with Air2 for many years) and tried to put my alternate on a necklace this weekend, and had it free flowing. . .
Hello C. Patrick Sadowski, great question. Unless I am diving Sidemount, where both of my second stages are considered primary's, I tend to detune my alternate just slightly. I can do this at the technician level, or simply by using the adjustment knob on the side of the second stage. Some second stages also have a pre-dive and dive switch (also known as a venturi switch), that will help with free flows while the mouthpeace is facing upwards. Differential pressure is what is causing it to free flow by the way.
@@LakeHickoryScuba hey Brian. Thanks. I’ll try that…!
Hey Brian. Love all the content. I know the long hose set up originated in cave diving, but do you recking it might have been adopted as popularly through divers neglecting to check or maintain their octos? I am thinking of adopting it myself but I find it perplexing how often I've heard stories that make it sound like divers never check their octos. Trained through a club in Ireland and we check ours before ever dive to see if it breathes well, and functions. Would you reckon yourself that as a large a number of divers don't check theirs properly or is it just another benefit commonly listed as a pro for the long hose in addition to the rest? :)
Hello ReaperofMind, that is a great question. Before I answer, let me make a video on this very topic, as others have asked why I only dive a long hose when in Sidemount. There are definitely times when a Long Hose reigns supreme.
@@LakeHickoryScuba Thanks! Sounds great. Looking forward to it. :)
Could you possibly do a video on using a lift bag to rescue yourself . thank you so much
Hello Eric, we will be having a diver survival series coming out later this winter, so stay tuned.
LakeHickoryScuba being in Florida we have no winter 😥 did you ever hear about the London marathon how they had a “record heat wave“ and they were all passing out from heat stroke (74f) that’s a nice winter day here, lucky euro bastards, unload trucks in 91f (100+ in the trailer) and bust my a in the sun all day carrying boxes, what I wouldn’t give for it to be 74 Monday it would be like having super powers how much easier it would be
Interesting and quick counter-argument to Alec's now deleted video.
Much respect for Mr. Peirce's knowledge and his contributions to the Scuba Industry, but we all make mistakes sometimes, even Scuba Instructors. The key is we learn from them and move on.
Unfortunately folks with Air 2s rarely seem to have a long enough primary hose to donate so you have to get pretty intimate to breath off of their regulator. Then they also have trouble controlling buoyancy and breathing off of the same device during the awkward intimate ascent.
Hello Scott, you make some very valid points. All of which are preventable with proper training and encouragement for other divers.
There are reasons to donate one over the other depending on the situation as you say. But coming from the PADI way of teaching open water, in confined water dive 3, the instructor manual states donating ALTERNATE air source, not primary. I agree the donating primary is maybe a more realistic in a true OOA situation as the diver is probably going to go for the hose they know works. But for teaching, as you know, we have to teach like the manual states. Which is you donate your alternate.
Hello Jeff, with a background like mine, I teach through 5 different training agencies and yes PADI is one of them, I always look at training like this. Once I cover what standards says I must teach, I can always add if necessary. As long as it does not inherently endanger a student. There are certain situations where my students have gear configurations that are not suitable to donate the alternate, thus what standards states is not applicable. With my professional students, I remind them that when they find themselves in a situation where equipment configuration will not allow them to meets standards, all they have to do is contact the training agency and explain the situation. 99.9999% of the time, the agency gives them the go ahead to eliminate that said standards. It all comes down to how you articulate the situation. Not to mention, agencies are not stupid, they understand there will always be exceptions. In the last 31 years in the scuba industry, I have lost count how many times I have called the training agencies for exceptions, with great success.
@@LakeHickoryScuba thank you for your reply. I was strictly coming from teaching of the Open water class only when I made my statement. In that class, the way to do it is to donate your alternate. After that class, such as any con ed class it is not stressed on donating either. I agree with you on donating the primary over the octo. My octo on my rig is just a yellow Sherwood octo with the hose connection on the back. It has no lever adjustment to adjust the pressure like my cressi black does. I would rather teach donating my primary even in open water class because I know that it breathes a little different than my primary. This past weekend I was teaching open water and my student was a little surprised when my octo did not breath exactly like her primary. It still works fine, but it is a little different. Donating a primary instead of the octo is probably beneficial in a true OOA emergency because it will put the panicked diver at ease with knowing they are getting a working reg, and I know my octo breathes a little different, so I would be ready for that. I like your channel a lot, and thanks to you, i am tackling all my gear instead of zip tying.
Glad to know our videos are helpful to you Jeff. Happy Diving.
Hey Brian, Gotta question. Why not use the long hose on the safe second? This way a diver behind you can reach up and secure the hose all by themselves. You wont have to remove your primary. In worst case scenario, say your second isn't working properly or not at all, now you have two paniced divers! Also if the diver behind you is out of air, you have to remove your primary and try to get it behind you to that diver, the whole time your also trying to get the alternate in your own mouth.. Just sounds easier to put the long hose on the alternate.
Hello Gee. A diver can set up Gus system any way he or she sees fit. The most important thing is to always check your equipment before every single dive while communicating with their buddy. Also practicing with their setup will eliminate 99% of issues that may occur.
@@LakeHickoryScuba Thank you Brian for an educated answer. I never knew this was such a controversial subject. I guess education and practice is required for any set up.
You would be correct. Education and Training is the key to staying safe while underwater.
I always my primary in my mouth and give my alternate to my buddy.
Hello MDO, we encourage all divers to use the method that makes them feel the most comfortable.
In order to primary donate, don't you need a long hose and can't a air 2 just be a 3rd regulator ?
Hello John metyk, we routinely share our primary with standard length hoses. And you can also use an Air 2 as well. A lot of Open Water Instructor who dive with an integrated octo/inflator will choose to still add another second stage as well.
What about just switching your Octo to necklace? Seems much easier to find than on your hip!
Hello @YZFoFittie, we prefer our alternates on a necklace over the hip attachment. You can choose to place yours in the position that best suits you while diving.
@@LakeHickoryScuba thanks
In regards to sidemount and donating the primary... Lets say your buddy has an OOA emergency and approaches you for air while your are currently breathing from the short hose to even out the buoyancy of your cylinders. Do you still donate whats in your mouth or are you donating the long hose?
Great question Kyle B, and it all depends on how you have it attached. I use a necklace to secure my short hose second stage. If it allows for quick detachment, then yes. If not, then you will have to unclip your long hose and donate it. The key is to practice for both scenarios. Also a quick discussion with your dive buddy before the dive goes a long ways.
Hi I have been following your channel for awhile. I saw you and James on Divers Ready. I thought you mentioned being an EMT for a Fire Dept, so with that being said, would we still donate a primary with donor's water droplets in reg and could transfer Covid-19?
Hello Scott Tozer, that is a great question, and one that has stirred a lot of controversy in the Scuba Industry. To answer it shortly, YES. At the end of the day, the receiving diver has worse things to worry about than contracting Covid-19. Most training agencies that teach primary donate, are still requiring primary donate to be taught, but with modification. If I was the receiving diver, personally I would not care which one my buddy donated, as long as he was donating air. If I had the fear that I was going to contract Covid-19 from him, I simply would not go diving with him.
@@LakeHickoryScuba thanks, I do like donation of primary and plan on going to long hose. I was thinking about systematic donor or "insta buddy" Maybe on pre dive asking for alt to be donated instead.
Using the briefing time to discuss this with your buddy is a good thing. During the current times, there is absolutely nothing wrong with alternate donate.
@@LakeHickoryScuba thx for all the time, insight, and great videos! Be safe and dive often
YEET YAW
Thanks brother
You're welcome. Glad you liked it.
I always feel like primary donate is a solution looking for a problem. The best reasoning I have heard is that a panicked diver will likely grab a reg out of your mouth anyway, but by training primary donate, are we not increasing the chance that it will happen? Doesn't this reinforce in my dive buddy to look at my reg as their emergency air?
Then what happens when he does rip the reg out of my mouth, does it set me into panic, or does the mouthpiece come off? If your buddy is on your left when he pulls the regulator out, how does that loop around the neck feel as you are trying to get to your secondary?
I feel like the better approach would be to train secondary donate. We already need to train to switch to our secondary if we lose our main regulator, so if they do take it from us then hopefully we will be prepared.
I'm a very new diver and I know that most very experienced divers seem to be a proponent of primary donate, but none of the arguments really make much sense to me.
Hello robahlgren0506, we encourage all divers to practice both methods, this way they are prepared for any situation. Remaining calm during a stressful situation is key as well.
I know this is an older comment but the best reason for primary donate is that it is easily visible and accessible for the out of air diver. A panicked diver may struggle to locate the secondary and some divers have them secured too firmly. You really just want to make the situation as easy as possible for the panicked diver which means they grab the clearly working, visible and easy to access regulator.
Another reason is that long hoses will nearly always be a primary so any diving involving them, including tec, will require primary donating. It's better if divers learn from the beginning to primary donate as it becomes necessary if they ever dive with a long hose and it's better to train that way from the beginning rather than retraining down the line.
In a lot of recreational diving both methods will work but why teach secondary donating if primary donating is just as good or better in most situations (necessary in some). It's not like secondary donating is going to get someone killed (I should hope) but it's a little more comfortable and easier for the out of air diver, and that's where we need to prevent further stress, so why not teach that way. I'm hoping to go to instructor next year with SSI and they teach this way and as critical as I am of the mainstream recreational agencies, this is one thing they definitely get right.
In regards to panic with from losing your regulator, this is something you should practice and be comfortable with, after a while you won't care if you need to pull your reg out and hand it to someone. Being comfortable in the water even when things go wrong (flooded/lost mask, lost your reg etc) far outweighs absolutely everything else you will learn in terms of safety when diving.
I hope you've enjoyed diving so far, stay safe mate.
And one other thing in regards to the mouthpiece coming off, you want to make sure you aren't actually 'biting' it but rather just holding it in place. Biting your reg hard can cause jaw fatigue after a while, it can also wear the mouthpiece out and, as you mentioned, possibly cause it to be pulled off if someone yanks while you're biting really hard. You can generally still breath from the plastic part that the mouthpiece attaches to but it's not very comfortable and you will probably need a hand to hold it in place.
😃😃😃😃😃😃
Hello Kruttjon henry Aspnes, thank you for watching our video and liking it.
Always have the option of passing off a pony tank, redundant air source if you dive with that setup.
Hello Scott denzer, we encourage all divers to use the method that makes them feel the most comfortable.
🤙👍ty
You're welcome John Milsom
Regardless of hose a side exhaust 2nd stage is best. Like a Mares MV.
Hello John Williams Scuba, we like the side exhaust as well.
very nice but you are NOT allways breathing from your long hose on SM
This is very true, and there are a lot Sidemount divers in our area that do not use a long hose at all.
You see panic routinely with your students?
Hello clint seeley, when you train in a lake like ours, after students spend multiple days in a crystal clear pool, it is an eye opener to them. One out of ten usually panics at some point during their training dives, and we take them back to the confine water for remedial training. We are not your typical dive shop that certifies everyone that walks through the door. We have several students a year that are unable to complete the skills their first go at it. So we continue to work with them day in and day out until they are able to earn their certification.
@@LakeHickoryScuba I'm glad you say this. I personally got certified by a particular dive shop, and felt as if I wasnt trained as good as I desired. They reassured me I was, but then i overheard the shop owner/instructor explaining to my instructor that he is to get us in and out, not to spend too much time with us. That the next group is waiting, and it needed to be a revolving door. Every since then it has put me off to this dive shop. I want to buy gear there, and get more training, but I don't want to feel like I did last time after dropping 1k.
Sorry to hear about your bad experience Banshee8813. The great thing about the Scuba Industry is, there are plenty of shops to choose from.
@@LakeHickoryScuba that's true. Watching your video definitely has me hopeful for a few other shops near me. They can't all be bad, right? Seriously though, keep up the good work.
I have worked for a total of 4 different shops prior to opening my own, and none of them were the same. They all had different business models and training methods.
From a "psychological standpoint* (to use your term)the out of air diver will most likely be in panic mode and grab the first thing he/she sees that remotely look like something to breath from; if that's a regular octo, because you carry one and it's obvious by position and color, you're both golden but if he can't find the octo(because you don't have one), then he'll pull the reg from your mouth, reg which hose is twisted around your neck in perfect position to strangle you... and now you are both in trouble. Long hose are just plain stupid, no if or but about it, a solution to nothing in search of a problem that doesn't exist.
Hello bullsharkreef. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the subject.
> " reg which hose is twisted around your neck"
The long hose in a DIR set up is never around your neck, much less twisted around it. The long hose goes behind your back, never crossing your trachea. In the off chance that the panicked diver grabs you from your left side, and extends the regulator hose around your neck, you still have 7 feet/2m of hose to release yourself from any potential choking. The protocol to release the hose would be the same from any angle, and would prevent any choking. This risk would be the same with a short hose configuration if the panicked diver grabs your regulator from your left side, but the long hose would give you much more length so you can release yourself from such a choke hold.
Someone is watching alic lol
We here at Lake Hickory Scuba are huge fans of Mr. Peirce and have much respect for his dedication and contributions to the Scuba Industry.
LakeHickoryScuba same here but I like you better 🤫 must be the accent
Thanks Richard.
This topic is like Democratics and Republicans.
Sadly, their are politics in every aspect of life. Even Scuba Diving as it would seem. But then again, this is just another reason I go diving. All I can hear underwater is BUBBLE BUBBLE BUBBLE