By the way, it took me about 5 minutes of practice when I first switched to long hose (as a recreational diver at the time) to get as "very well trained" as you saw in that video. Removing a reg and passing it off is pretty much the same as in traditional regs (the hose comes right over your head automatically pretty much) and getting your "safe second" is much more intuitive because you don't even have to think about it, it's practically at your mouth already. I would wager that most rec divers would get on their safe second faster if they switched to this "technical" configuration (which isn't technical at all, it doesn't teach you any technical skills, it's still just breathing from a reg and donating a reg). Additionally, using a long-hose doesn't make you a tech diver anymore than buying a set of regs off Ebay makes you a recreational diver. Anymore than putting on a BP/W makes you a technical diver. It's a gear choice, and quite frankly it's one that makes more sense for most divers that dive as it is inherently safer with your alternate air source at a very accessible location that isn't falling out of the holders that are still poorly designed (you did a video on those iirc), resulting in it routinely falling below a diver, getting dragged in stuff, and otherwise mishandled making a failure or improper operation much more likely, not to mention locating it more difficult as it may or may not even be where you put it. The bungee'd secondary is ALWAYS going to be right there at your neck, close to your body, not smacking reefs, and not ending up behind or below the diver that rarely considers seeing if they remember how to do an air share. As for you not believing that it is the case that an out of air diver will grab the reg in your mouth, it does happen (you can search DAN for references) and donating the primary is actually how many divers are being taught these days (not PADI yet as they are slow to adopt new best practices, though even the PADI OW course allows for it to be taught these days even if it isn't their standard, but SSI and others have switched due to their research on what are best practices). So, perhaps you aren't aware of that new "modern, standardized training" yet, but it's there. Next, their are not "two rolls" around the next. The long hose in a typical setup starts behind the diver, goes under the right arm (just like a normal secondary reg that you'd donate) and then goes around the back of the head/next and to the mouth. It never wraps twice, and it never wraps "around the neck" as that would be a hazard if it was snagged, so it would be foolish to do so. Let's answer your questions: 1. You give your known, working, air source to him because you haven't been out of air. If your "safe second" has also failed, you are in a better position to deal with it for a moment before beginning buddy breathing than if you gave it to him, and he got to take another breath of "I can't breath" and then must either yank your reg out of your mouth (potentially damaging the mouthpiece etc which could result in wet-breathing further causing problems) or try and explain that to you while out of air even longer. 2. Investing the time - the average rec diver isn't going to invest the time to see where your safe second is or to practice donating/receiving air, so the method of doing so is immaterial. The "training" needed to use a long-hose is free, any technical diver, the internet, multiple youtube videos from knowledgeable people, etc is more than enough. The equipment cost is about $5 different to buy a long hose over a short hose, so I'd call that inexpensive. And practice can be done for absolutely free anytime you go diving (and should be, but we know most rec divers won't bother practicing donating air regardless of what configuration they're diving in so that's again a moot point). 3. When rec divers stop doing swim-throughs in Cozumel, stop doing "swim-throughs" penetrating wrecks, etc, then I'll agree with you that the long-hose can't benefit them. However, since I've done all of those things and been in those places with other rec divers who couldn't have swam out while sharing air because the passages were too narrow, I'll disagree that the benefits of the long hose configuration "don't apply" to them. 4. At 10:34 you decided which "standard deployment of a safe second" you wanted to share. You could have accidentally grabbed this one by SSI instead, and shown the "standard deployment" demonstrating donating your primary (which can be done whether on a long or short hose setup and is becoming the industry standard because it is becoming recognized as the best practice for safe diving. th-cam.com/video/QnY9yZJmgVM/w-d-xo.html In summary, while I believe you believe what you are saying is correct, much of it appears to be from lack of knowledge. While many of your videos demonstrate a wealth of knowledge on diving related subjects, this and its predecessor are a stark contrast to that and are demonstrating exactly the opposite I'm sorry to say.
It took me a few of drills to get it right, and a few more to get the muscle memory due to the predominance of umbilicals getting in the way etc but yes not rocket science. But there are people out there who have no training in this concept and cannot work it out for themselves. Want to dive a long hose, get extended range or similar, that way you get an experienced eye on your routing and discuss the pros and cons. I have no instructor quals just experience
💯 having a long hose config also forces you to ensure that your secondary is in a good working order before every dive, because you'd be the one using it.
Unfortunately, you used a term that confuses many divers. At 6:37 you said the long hose was wrapped around his neck. At 8:37 you even said there are two rolls around the neck. It is actually wrapped once behind his neck. Many divers believe that the hose is, therefore, crossing the front of his neck, creating a choking hazard. This couldn't be further from the truth. Also, the long hose isn't just for technical diving. My fiancee has never considered technical diving yet loves her long hose. She has shared air on a couple of occasions and found it to be much less stressful when you don't have to have the OOA diver in your face. It was very easy to continue the swim to the exit side by side rather than having to hold onto each other's BC.
There is a difference between a hater and a questioner. If someone questions a thought or practice and draws hate, he is probably on the right track. Those who hate questions usually just don't have an answer. It's easier to hate than to think of a fair response. Thanks. Alec
Alec Peirce Scuba, that's a fair statement Alec, questioning a topic is always a good thing and so is debate but even with all your disclaimers and your clear explanations people still feel they need to oppose you. Perhaps they're watching with blinders and sound filters on or perhaps they're simply too obtuse to understand YOUR position. As the kids say nowadays...U DA MAN!!!
nobody is hating. he just doesn't know what he is talking about. and that is not an insult, it is a statement he makes about himself: he has no technical training. why he feels compelled to disparage something he does not understand does not reflect well upon him. it is however better than the time he told a guy to take his wife diving with new dive computers that neither one of them knew how to use. AP is an instructor and he most certainly should have understood that to be wrong. is that an example of professional negligence ?
'taking a hose 1,2,3,4 loops around [my neck]'. Come on buddy, I love your video's, but this is hyperbole making what can be a very safe system seem unsafe!
Pandora's box hath been opened lol. I am a long hose guy myself but to each his own. My only pet peeve is a guy with an air 2 type inflator/back-up regulator and a 26" primary hose. You have to make out with each other to share air. It would be difficult to communicate, deflate and try to make a safe ascent with that setup.
Its always a nice topic to discuss but I think he is a little bit off if he said long hose is nothing for rec diving. You can use a 5 foot hose and I would say you allways need proper training. That long hose is little bit more tricky than the "normal" setup, granted. But does the benefits may surpass these disadvantages? This might be the real question ;). And I also thing that 95% of the objections comes from cold water divers. So this is more about different diving types ...
Firstly, I want to say that although I disagree with the comments about the longhose SPECIFICALLY, I completely agree when he says that it is a personal choice, and that people SHOULD be thinking about their needs, their equipment for a given dive, and how they plan to respond in an emergency - thinking divers are safe divers, so this conversation is important, whichever side of the argument you fall on! I also want to apologise to everyone for the length of this comment, but it's a subject about which I am passionate. Whilst it is true that most recreational divers are taught in the "standard" setup shown here, and it is suitable for the majority of divers and their ambitions - see pretty fish on a reef while on holiday, for example - I would argue that it isn't OPTIMAL, for the following reasons: 1. in the Standard setup, you're supposed to put the octopus in an imaginary triangle formed by your neck and hips - it can be anywhere in there. That could mean it could be clipped to a D-ring, poking out of a BC pocket etc etc. Just as likely is that it will be trailing behind you - I see that one often enough! 2. The standard procedure for an Out Of Air (OOA) scenario is for the OOA diver to make the throat-slash signal, whereupon the donating diver moves their arms up and out of the way to give the OOA diver access to their octopus (what we call "stand and deliver!" like the Highwaymen of old). Then the OOA diver takes the octopus, breathes from it and a joint ascent is made. And the OOA diver knows where the octopus is because they tested it at the surface during BWRAF, right? Except... what if the diver isn't your buddy, but some poor sucker who has been left behind by a different group? What if your octopus isn't where he was expecting it to be based on HIS training (which can be very variable in quality)? what if it isn't where YOU put it, but now it's trailing behind you? What if you're in horizontal trim and the OOA diver can't see the octopus at all because he's slightly above you and rising due to an over-gassed BCD? Bearing in mind that an OOA diver is experiencing an EMERGENCY; probably the final stage of a cascading series of unfortunate events and that they are likely seconds away from a full-blown panic - if they aren't already in one - what do you think will be the result of a delayed octopus donation? The answer is that they are gonna mug you for your gas - probably by snatching the regulator straight from your mouth as we hear about so often. They might even dislodge your mask too by accident when they take your reg. Not ideal. 3. Even if you manage to get an octopus into their mouth, they are still initially in panic; panicked divers breathe hard due to stress and CO2 build-up, but they also tend to swim HARD with their hands. The standard octopus hose length is about 1 metre or 3 feet, so now you are attached in close quarters to this panicked diver as they thrash for the surface, so again you face the possibility of having your own regulator knocked out, your mask torn off etc. Would it not be better to keep an individual like this at arms length? preferably by donating a regulator to them that they just saw was working? Would it not be better to then HOLD them at arms length by maintaining control of the hose that you donated with, until they can clear that CO2, calm themselves and begin an air-sharing ascent with you? The truth is, that if you don't TAKE CHARGE in an OOA emergency, you WILL end up being dictated to by a diver who is panicking. I have seen panicked divers attempt to climb other divers to get out of the water, like a monkey climbing a tree - is this who you want dictating to you in an emergency?! 4. The issue about costs raised in this video are a non-starter. Here in the UK I can buy a standard 2.5 foot regulator hose for £27. A 7 foot longhose costs £40 (both Miflex). The bungee for your backup (which can be your old octopus) costs two feet of shock cord and a cable tie. And that will last for ages. 5. You don't need to always dive in full technical gear - backplate and wing etc - if you don't want to; you can use a longhose and backup on a recreational BCD if you want with no ill effect. The backbone of the philosophy is to keep things simple, to take only what you need and to have good diving fundamental skills. Nobody is saying that you have to dive in a drysuit with a wing/twinset on every dive! 6. There is no second wrap of the hose around your neck; the hose comes out of the first stage, down the right-hand side of your BC and is tucked into your waist strap (or hooked over the battery canister of your light, or whatever), then it heads up and across your chest to your left side, around the back of your neck and into your mouth. The configuration is clean, nothing sticks out above you, nothing can get caught up and cause damage. And if you need to, you can donate that longhose to anyone, no matter who they are and take control of the emergency. 7. The divers shown in the little clip were actually not highly experienced tech divers, but were in fact students of Steve Martin on the first day of a Sidemount Essentials course, after which they both also took a foundational tech diving course (TDI AN/DP). To the best of my knowledge this was their first time using a longhose, and they seemed to adapt just fine; that they look proficient with their longhoses already is testament both to the ease of use of the longhose system, and the skill of Steve as an instructor. Another advantage to the longhose is that if it is taught at the foundational, Open Water levels, and the diver subsequently decides that they like diving and they want to do more - staying longer, diving deeper, diving in wrecks, caves etc - they already know the gas sharing procedure as taught in technical courses. From a 10 metre reef dive, to an exploratory cave dive, the procedure is the same and as we all know; repetition breeds proficiency; proficiency breeds confidence; and confidence breeds fun! And that's all I want to say about that.
I have been diving since 82 and have had a panicked out of air diver attack me and he grabbed my primary and ripped or dislodged my mask as he went for my air one. This was a fun dive and I had not dived with this person, we did a check and all seemed good. Later we found out that he was using a friends set up and long story short, did not had the reg. checked in forever. It was in 60 feet of water where his primary chocked and he panicked, I use a standard save second hose and grabbed my second and then grabbed him to make eye contact and get he in the right posture to go up slowly. I was taught buddy breathing which was difficult to get right but I and maybe that’s way eye contact and controlling the out of air diving is a given for me, zIf I hadn’t been close to him I feel he would have bolted up and for some reason I feel the long hose may of been a deterrent and given him to much freedom. I have used a long hose in Cave diving as the confined space dose make a long hose more since. I loved your response to the video by the way
Thing i noticed was when you showed you offering your octo that’s the way you’re shown on your first open water course. If you move onto a padi rescue diver course you’re taught to hand the octo to your buddy it’s a better way as it keeps them at arms length if they are panicked. The other issue with the standard recreational dive set up is that the hoses are never in ideal rotation for your buddy and shortness in hose length doesn’t give them much room for movement. I’ve moved my recreational set up over to long hose because of this reason also it offers you the chance to stream line your hoses a lot more than having loops here there and everywhere. It also makes you think about every part of your gear as you know that reg on your chest is YOUR lifeline now so you keep an eye on it. I’ve seen a number of divers who just let the octo float about and drag in the sand as they see it that it’s not there for an emergency for them self.
Way too defensive, but otherwise a great followup to the retracted video. Taking the regulator from your mouth, however, should never be a thing a trained (basic ow) diver fears or avoids for any reason. It is vital to be able to do so without any risk or imagined risk involved.
For you all techie divers, i understand you ideas and points but you have to realize that it's very hard to tell a man whose BCD was a boulder and who dived with no SMPG for decades that you need a 7 foot long hose if you're not cave diving or going into tight quarters which are the instances where i believe it will be very necessary as you can't be side by side as there might not be enough space. Also he is very right in telling that it is unnecessary for recreational divers to steer them in that direction as i have seen done and i see them every time i go dive, divers who have all this gear and equipment just to dive 20 feet deeper i mean i can see them and also there's no more life down there than where i am so i can see the man's point.
Nobody said you need a seven foot hose for recreational diving. It does make sharing air a lot easier than the standard setup. I think the main point of the negative comments were the continued misconceptions of its use, especially repeating the false information about it being wrapped around a diver's neck.
Your both correct. In the future everyone will dive with the long hose. Its simpler and safer but Padi is not ready to teach that taking the reg from the guys mouth is ok
@@stephens2r338 Actually PADI does allow it, and they did discuss primary versus alternate donation in a training bulletin a few years ago. They won't mandate it, which isn't unreasonable (I'm no fan of PADI for their low standards and ethics, but I have to be fair). I'd rather they mandate courses being taught neutrally buoyant and trim.
The thing is, the ordinary set up is simple, it works, its all well and good the dude donating the primary but if the lad receiving or waiting for it doesnt know about it, u could have a pickle if someone panics, atleast a bright yellow free to grab octo everyone knows that. It doesnt have to be pretty it just has to get air from a to b as quick as possible at the end of the day.
I understand panic makes people do funny things but I hope you are informing your dive buddy/ies that you are diving a primary donate system before the dive so everyone is on the same page
I'm a little concerned with the "It doesn't have to be pretty" part of the comment. A lot of divers who buy their own regulators buy the octo as an afterthought. It's supposed to be there, so what's the cheapest one I can get? That mindset also often leads to divers not checking their octo for proper operation, or not caring for it like they do their primary. IMHO the octo should perform as well as your primary regulator. I'm fine with it not having luxury options like breathing adjustments or a Venturi lever or smaller exhausts, but it should provide plenty of air in any situation. It should be regularly checked. At least during every predive check, but preferably also underwater. It should be properly stowed, and not drag behind you, or through the silt or the coral reef. It shouldn't hit the boat deck when you take off your BCD, and it should be regularly serviced (though that's usually not a problem as that's up to the divecenter). Remember that it's emergency equipment. In an emergency it needs to perform. That's not when you want to find out it's not working.
I’m a divemaster (considered the entry-level of professional divers, yes?) and have used the long hose primary/necklaced alternate configuration for over 20 years. The training I received way back when as a lifeguard reinforced the concept that in-water perceived emergencies of any variety can induce anxiety and/or panic for the person who perceives the emergency. if a diver forgot to check their air state, I have little confidence in that diver’s ability to remember other aspects of their training, including where on my person to locate my alternate air source. An anxious diver will reach for the regulator they see being used (i.e. the one I’m breathing from). a long hose allows me to maintain a safer distance while the diver squares themselves away mentally, able to breathe. I agree completely that the long hose requires familiarity, a bit of training and practice. I’ve grown comfortable over time with a hose routing path that allows for a diver to grab my primary, spinning me clockwise once while the hose plays out for them. I recently watched a low/out-of-air incident while diving for fun in the Caribbean. The anxious diver went for the dive guide’s primary. I’ll maintain the anxious diver can’t be counted on to maintain a calm presence of mind.
It is a skill that needs lots of practice to keep you mind sharp in an emergency. Also when you see your buddy's out of air, grabbing and presenting (ie put in front of you), your safe second, they will grab what is closest. Otherwise they go for what their mind wants, a primary. In all my many, many, too many years of diving, only seen maybe 3-4 OOA situations, none went crazy. Thanks for sharing a logical and personal background. A
I'm a cave and decompression diver; everything is a tool for a job. I am of course bringing a long hose in an overhung environment because that's what my training and common sense tells me to do; I don't think my team will allow it otherwise. If it's a recreational dive, it doesn't really matter. I'll happily sling a single tank with a 40" hose and dive. Obviously, technical divers require more gear and training with a specific configuration but that's only because we need it. Recreational divers don't need a long hose since it's not necessary in my opinion. They simply don't have the skill to manage a long hose (which is not even difficult) since their buoyancy, trim, propulsion are terrible anyways.
An out of air diver is already stressed. Donating the long hose ensures the out of air diver receives a functioning regulator. The standard octopus typically is a lower quality/harder breathing regulator rarely serviced. Do you really want to give a harder breathing regulator to an already stressed diver? The standard octopus placement also may allow the regulator to drag the bottom, etc. with debris entering the casing preventing a breath. Besides, an out of air and panicking diver will grab the regulator out of your mouth in a truly out of air situation. The long hose is scalable from open water to technical dives. A 5 foot hose is used for open water dives and a 7 foot hoses are used for overhead environments. Learning the long hose technique can be used form open water to the most technical of dives. BTW, the long hose is NOT wrapped around your neck. If passed in front of your throat, strangulation is possible. The long hose is runs under the right arm, crossing the chest, and goes behind the neck. Donating the long hose only involves lifting the hose over your head and can be replaced with ease (as opposed to a stuffed hose). The secondary regulator used is typically the same or near quality of the primary. The secondary places under the chest is also tested prior to entering the water. How often are standard octopuses check? I have never seen a diver test the standard octopus prior the dive. When diving open water, my open water regulator set has a yellow purge cover And a yellow long hose on the primary for easy recognition.
Any diver who does not use a compatible AA source, keep it maintained at the same time as his 2nd stage and check that both regs work properly is very foolish.
Foolish even with a longhose. I have had dives with tec divers who found a dead miniature fish in their neck bungee reg weeks after that dive. Had they tried to breathe from that reg when the fish had slipped inside they certainly would have fumbeled the ooa drill and taken their loghose back in panic.
Personally speaking, I never dive without doing a buddy check first which includes checking that the 2nd stage and the AA source are both working properly. In fact, I teach my divers to do the following, one buddy breathes off his 2nd stage and his buddy doing the buddy check breathes off his buddies octopus to ensure that both regs will breathe easily when two people are sharing air. I would not dive with people who refused to do this.
Exactly right. You know 100% that the reg you are donating to a diver in trouble supplies good air versus the one that has spent a dive or more unchecked. As you still have your hand on the primary you can buddy breathe off that if there is an issue with the secondary but at least the diver in trouble was guaranteed to get good air.
@@andygray Ever heard of a burst disc, hose connectors, o-rings. I have seen each of these and many others fail in the middle of dives on divers. There is no fault to the divers, things happen.
I thought id like the long hose but as a recreational diver im finding I don't like the longer floating hose. I do however like the necklace on my octo. What are your thoughts on necklaces on your primary standard length and a regular holder for your octo. I just like the idea of my primary always being there
@@bradbentler9754 a floating hose can be fixed with better routing. usually it is routed from the 1st stage under your right arm, tucked in your belt (either weight belt or a belt from the wing), then back up towards your left shoulder from the front, around your neck towards your back and back to the front next to your right shoulder. you can also have it hooked on a hose retainer, light canister or a weight pocket on your right hip instead of tucking it into the belt, whichever is more convenient.
Alec, theory is that you share the reg you are breathing because you know for a fact it is operational. People in caves get stuff lodged in their regs. It could have been damaged during the dive. Etc. that’s the thought process of sharing what you breath. The DIR style of diving was made with lessons learned from deaths diving. I think that carries over to rec dies ... not because of caves but because a lot of rec divers have no clue how to control buoyancy and I regularly see them dragging their gear across the ocean floor and reefs. It’s awful. The only negative thing about long hose diving is that it needs to be in a team. In one way it’s great. You are diving in a highly trained and educated team that knows the agencies standard operating procedures. Everyone is on the same page 100%. No questions needed. Everyone is up to date. I believe it’s the safest way to dive. The problem lies when you want to go on vacation some place and you don’t have team divers with you. Unfortunately, this is what I do most ... I’m just thrown on a boat with rec divers with normal setups and varying skill levels. I’ve been on a dive boat and had people 100% perplexed with my setup. Like no clue how I would share air. That is a problem. Especially if i just happen to run into someone OOA on a busy reef some place. I know I’ll just have them snag my reg out of my mouth and I’m cool with that. I think as time goes on long hose will get more traction. And I think that’s great. The more awareness the better.
John, see my previous comments on this and read others comments/experiences. Regardless of others inout, it will still be your call how to setup for your diving profile. Alec
Dear Alec- It pains me to write this. My 7 foot hose lays close to my body. On each dive, my buddy and I go through the motions of sharing air while in horizontal trim and neutrally buoyant. We have done this since we were first OW certified. Our safe second is the one right next to our chin on a necklace. It is always there ready to go. We were taught to recover a lost reg from our first certification dives. Having a reg out of your mouth for a moderate period of time is of no consequence and if doing so creates a danger to you or your buddy then additional training is definitely in order. Diving without a reg in your mouth is required for your first certification. You are making a sensational claim of some inherent danger in a basic skill that is employed by every diver ever certified. If you use this argument to make your case against the use of a long hose in open water then you lose credibility that you have built over decades. Claiming that the hose wraps multiple times around your neck is also a sensational claim. Your video is viewed as an attack on divers that choose to use primary donate with a long hose in open water. Dive and let dive?
Hi Alec, I got your point, but to be honest... you miss many points. I don't know, where are you diving, but I'm from Czech Republic and we don't have 20m visibility and warm water in the quarries, or lakes. Recreational configuration as I was taught during my course many years ago simply doesn't fully work. It works only in seas around Equator and that's it... REC divers from Norway and Iceland don't dive in wet suit as well. I don't say that everybody must be a TEC diver, but REC configuration with long hose and WING (not classic BCD) is simply handy everywhere. Last point if people can learn how to control inflator, how to donate, etc... they cannot have any problem with donation with long hose.
I think you are trying too be reasonable with unreasonable people that are just going to nit pick at what you are saying, the vast majority of people with a ounce of common sense can see the point you are trying to make and it is logical and reasonable, there is a perfect time and place for every single set up, but as you rightly said for many divers it is not ideal or needed.
So what happened to the first long hose video, that was my favorite? Then we could see the ''controversy' again. Here is a link which describes the two systems a bit more completely. th-cam.com/video/yFhJI0EC1QI/w-d-xo.html The important thing to note about the long hose is that it starts a diver off correctly to become a more competent diver. The courses that teach long hose emphasize horizontal diving, buoyancy control, a relaxed attitude, energy conservation, and staying off the bottom. This sort of discipline is not often seen in typical open water divers behavior. And the position of the octopus shown here on Alec hardly represents the real world position I see when diving these days. Typically, the octopus is loosely hanging off someones butt, dragging in the bottom, collecting mud, or at some random connection point. And a lot of octopus I see are not a bright color or even have a yellow hose. Or its tucked in to a D ring with the loop being the most obvious part of the octopus sticking out instead of the reg. So when the panicked diver grabs the octopus, they grab the loop, not getting the octopus, so they pull harder, ripping open the BC. Or they grab the other diver's regulator, leaving the person with the air searching for their octopus (most likely hanging somewhere near their butt). So the problem is that there is no standard setup in REAL practice. In other words, a lack of discipline. The long hose represents a universal standard, both regs are always in a specified place in real use. To Alec's credit he indicated in another video that the Scubapro second air was a bad idea. I agree, every time I see someone with one of those I ask them, what the plan is for their buddy being out of air. It becomes clear they have given this no thought, they typically do not realize they will have to give up their primary reg to the buddy, and take the second air themselves, or lose control of their buoyancy. Whatever is left to pure chance and random factors on a dive becomes a liability and a risk. I would not accept a second air user as a buddy, if they do not actually know how the setup is supposed to be used; their attitude is just too cavalier for safety. The random octopus situation is analogous to people saying they don't need a seat belt in their car. True, the seat belt serves no purpose until you crash, but you better have it on if you plan to survive. Discipline. And this commentary comes from someone who has been diving with the standard octopus setup for 40 years (its fine when its set up correctly, as Alec shows in this video). The truth is your best bet is to dive with a regular buddy, who is disciplined, and to practice out of air with them, until you can do it right. That way, no matter what setup you or they have, you both will know what to do when the real emergency comes. Safe diving.
I am not a tec diver. I do not subscribe to the total list of DIR theology. However, I prefer the comfort, fit, and trim offered by a back plate and wing. Luckily, over the last several years Ive only been involved in a few out of air scenarios. I had a buddy that could make the sides of an aluminum 80 touch in about 20 minutes. He got low on air and before I could get his attention, he bolted for the entry point. When I finally got close enough to him to grab a fin, he was off to the surface. The second was on a boat dive in 130 feet of water when a dude hit 500lbs while still inside the wreck. He ignored his instructors reg... a long hose by the way.... and bolted for the surface. He popped straight up the anchor line hand over fist. Somehow, he never took a DCS hit.... Most recently, during a shake down dive in a shallow pool with my daughter, she asked for air, I presumed it was a drill and just gave her my primary and I snatched her octo. She was OOA so we stood up. lol. it was a good lesson for both of us. I have done a LOT of air share drills over the last 14 years during class dives and during pre-season shake downs. And in every scenario, the biggest aggravation and struggle is the length of the standard safe second or octopus hose. There is never enough hose there to comfortably share. You have to route the reg up and over your shoulder to your left side if you dont want them in your face while trying to swim or maneuver to an exit point. They end up banging into your legs and messing up your kick. Ascending is a pain as they keep crashing into you. The standard hose lengths are just ludicrous for true emergency scenarios. I feel like the 5 to 7 foot hose option is ideal. A 5 foot hose on a typical mounted octo does offer some flexibility and is much preferred to the standard length hose, but its just not quite long enough to free up the second diver and its just long enough to start being a pain in the butt to manage. It definitely increases the snag factor and most octo pockets arent designed for the extra hose. The 7 foot hose routed straight down between the plate and wing to the right hip, back up to the left shoulder with one wrap.........not sure where you got two wraps......... around the head to the mouth is an ideal air share length. 7 feet of hose lets the other diver get out of your way, face you without being in your face, and swim next to you without crowding you. You can tuck the excess hose in your waist strap, behind a dive light or other equipment attached to your plate and it stays out of the way much easier than a 5 footer. While I agree that new divers have many other skills to focus on when first starting out, I do not think that adding a long hose in the mix creates an atmosphere of danger or confusion. It all comes down to the instruction they receive and the homework they do about their gear choices. You've been diving longer than Ive been alive, so I cannot even begin to guess at the scenarios you have seen play out under the water. Ive only ever seen two panicked divers. One was my buddy who (thankfully) did not try and steal my primary reg, but he did forget all of our training (we attended the same classes and had just completed our BOW, AOW, Night, Nav, and S&R courses. We had many, many hours in the pool and in open water together doing air drills with each other) and bolted to the surface. A panicked diver could do anything and there is no way to predict what that is. I can search the Googe and find accounts of divers stealing a donors primary. I cant prove, or disprove, any of them. But it was apparently a big enough issue that some of the most serious, fundamentalist, hard core divers on the planet came up with the long hose setup a long long time ago. Granted, it was as much (maybe more) about divers passing through small openings one at a time as it was about dealing with panicked divers, but its a trained technique and it appears to work well for them to this day. If someone rips your reg out of your mouth, just tuck your chin to your chest (your backup is right there.....) and back away if possible. The excess hose simply slides over your head giving you distance from the diver. Apply that same scenario to a standard hose configuration and you have a diver, probably flailing and clutching you, right up in your face. Your backup reg is now amongst a potential melee of moving arms and gear and your being pulled and jerked by their efforts to manipulate a short hose. I just dont see a problem with the long hose in a recreation scenario. I think it offers some extra features that make any potential cons worth the extra training and prep. We can what if, and banter perfect storm scenarios back and forth for years and never come to a consensus. I think we can both agree that it may not be ideal for brand new divers or for divers struggling to master some of the more basic diving skills. I think that if an instructor can identify a dive student that displays the right amount of competency, and they take to the time to properly train and educate that diver, that there is absolutely nothing wrong with a long hose rig on a beach dive from the cottage. Or a single tank, non penetration, shallow wreck dive. Its probably a bit much for cleaning the pool screens or scraping a boat hull, but at the end of the day, its that divers call.
Ha that's funny Daniel, suck in an 80 wow. Thanks for sharing this and look for my backplate video S09E21 Backplates - are they for you. Have more coming so thanks for watching.
Alec Peirce Scuba Its my personal opinion that longhose config is much more safer than a yellow octopus in all kinds of diving- even on a 30 feet open water dive in crystal blue water on a sunny day. Doesnt need to be an out of air situation either; of you for ex. get your primary reg kicked out from your mouth it might be a quicker option to first switch to your necklace and then go back to your primary. Topics like this are good since it opens up for interresting diskussions. Again, thanks for a good video sir!
Totally agree long hose for expierenced divers if they like it and standard hoses for noobs and causal divers or all others who like that configuration ;)
I agree and disagree. First, when I'm in a mixed group on holiday I take a standard singles rig and the alternate is the big yellow thing that everyone expects and is trained to use, for all the reasons you say. But when, still as a recreational diver, I'm diving my doubles, I'll use the long hose. Again, it's what the group expects and is trained to use. And although its origin was in cave and wreck diving, it's still nice to have a bit more space within which my buddy and I can manoeuvre, even in an open environment. As to why you donate the long hose out of your mouth, if you kept it as an alternate it would have to be clipped off to stop it getting wayward and that would make it more difficult to donate. As it is I've practiced reg swaps and donations hundreds of times and not once have I had a mouthful of water; I don't know anyone who has. So it is safe and quick. I was actually slightly disappointed that the guy in your video had to glance down to locate his necklace reg as he should be able to do it blindfold. Also, as the guy in the clip showed, you only put the long hose once round the neck so it does indeed come off with that one single motion; any loose hose gets tucked into the harness so it's easy to pull out. So the long hose does have a general use: it gives you more space. But I agree that it should only be used when both parties who may need it are properly trained.
With all due respect, when you gave the disclaimer that you are not educated in the use of the long hose system that should have been the end of your video. Why would you again try to instruct and use your reputation to speak on something that you clearly do not understand. I make it a point as a respected instructor (my students will believe what I say) to only instruct on things that I am thoroughly knowledgeable, competent, and experienced on.
Alex again with all due respect you need to be trained to use any scuba diving equipment. the long hose will become the standard in the future for the beginner diver as diving progresses.And as you know diving does progress, maybe you should bring to the attention of the diving training orginsations about beginner divers being shown how to be correctly Weighted /Bouyancy and a system of breathing to help with this. instead of picking on one element of diving, as for the double loop around the neck please Alex maybe get Kevin to research the the subject and have a chat with him before you make confusing videos
The point to the video is to illustrate the appropriate use of the long hose versus the standard Safe Second. One does not have to be an 'expert' to do so. The correct application of the long hose, that is, the circumstances for which it is appropriate to use, is well documented by both its proponents, its developers and its trainers. Also, the deployment of the long hose is well-documented in both text and videos. One does not have to be a gun nut to understand the proper application of a shotgun versus a rifle. Alec
Alec, you're right on the money! Many of these comments made me laugh. I especially laughed at all the "you don't understand" comments. 89% of you long hose guys just need to be different! I think you guys may be "compensating"
I'm sharing my many, many, many years of experience with others to make them laugh or think. It's the sharing if ideas/information that's important, not who is right or wrong. Alec.
@@bassh8me1 Please say that to any competent diver and see who still dives with you. If you are out of air, you go to the closest diver, period. No questions, and then you end the dive for you both. I would never allow a diver, that makes a statement like that on my boat.
@@shuntao3475 Dude. I am a tech wreck diver myself, and ofc long hose is a must for the dives me and my buddies are performing. I also have a strong opinion favoring long hose vs standard, due to control, maneuverability and many other reasons for divers that want to become more competent, but your unproductive and narrow-minded way of discussing is a disgrace to the community, especially to somebody with a 50 year carreer on the field. There are different philosophies and different techniques for different things when it comes to scuba, and for amateurs and recreational divers a long hose could be a big struggle. I generally try to push to most of my buddies to switch to long hose, but we should aknowledge that MANY people are not cold blooded, the find scuba exciting but they don't feel comfortable, and adding a 7-8 feet long extra hose could distract them more and not letting them actually enjoy the experience. Many people feel uncomfortable just by being underwater, just by putting a bit more effort for breathing, just by checking the oxygen depleting minute by minute, just by trying to stay neutral. All these people should be able to enjoy scuba, if they are safe enough, even if they will not be chosen for the next Mars' mission. Like some others I literally had to spent 1 minute practicing to become comfortable enough (and love) the long hose. I have seen some people, like my girlfriend, struggling even after 2 dives. -Whould I call them if we go for a night dive near a shipwreck? No way. -Should I let them enjoy scuba in safe conditions without any extra equipments that make them uncomfortable and in case of an emergency they will struggle more, risking their lives and possibly mine? Ofc. Just be open-minded and wether you aggree or not, at least think what others have to say with tone of experience. There is not many globally BEST practices in scuba. There are practices that are best with respect to the mission, the context, the experience and the subset of tools of anybody's inventory. There is no (moronic) knowledge competition in scuba. It is hopefully a highly posistive sum game were the winners are just simply the ones that are enjoying the experience, and they are able to grab a beer after the dive and discuss with their loved ones without any health issues. Anything else is just borderline narcisism that ruins the community without any positive outcome. Especially with your attitude, I can see more people switching to veganism because they met one of these annoying stereotypical vegan type of guys in the internetz, than to long hose, because you told them so.
Seems fair point. Don't use a long hose unless trained to use it safely. I dive with a long hose on smaller dives to keep the skills fresh for more technical dives. Why would you want that stress if you just want to go for easy dives.
Right. The long hose was developed for and should be used for its intended purpose only - other than training and practice. Bill Main did not develop the long hose nor in fact, DIR to help divers on shallow, warm reef dive. It may or may not help them but, the point is, that was not his intention. Alec
Alec I really like your channel. I think you're missing some points. If you are interested how divers should actually use the long hose and how it can benefit you in non-technical level diving: Part 1: th-cam.com/video/GBVfZXXH_bk/w-d-xo.html Part 2: th-cam.com/video/LrRB9-xsDKY/w-d-xo.html
I was trained primarily on long hose during my CMAS* (OWD equivalent). We did some training on the "standard configuration" since you'll probably run into that somewhere at some point. I do prefer the long hose setup since there is no chance for my safe second to come lose and be dragged across mud, always being able to find it blindly and somewhat increased comfort when turning your head. I don't mind running into the other configuration though and certainly don't see a need for endless discussions. I can deal with both and just enjoy the dive.
Also my main reason is that I exactly know where my safe second reg is. The long hose is convenient when the need for air share but my dives are always in open water and never deeper then 40m.
@twoknife, correctly stowed your safe 2nd or octopus does get caught or dangle everywhere. A lot of rental gear doesn't come with the clips so yes it would be an issue. I use clips on my own kit and have never had a problem. That includes when I've gone inside wreck, caves, tunnels and other close environments.
Equipment malfunctions or misplacement will occur with equal frequency whether on long hose or standard. That is a moot point. If a diver is sloppy, NO set-up will suffice. My main point in this video is not whether a long hose is good but rather if it's necessary. My opinion is no, not for recreational diving. There are several problems associated with the long hose concept, whether used properly or not, starting with the idea of removing your primary from your mouth in an emergency. Perhaps that's why I do not like the idea. Removing my primary from my mouth is risky at any time. At the moment my buddy runs out of air, sorry, it's not going to happen if I can help it! Alec
Alec, I am a relatively new diver, and i am training with long hose. I prefer it. Makes more sense. More safety FOR ME. My safe second is FOR ME. Anything happens, my safe second is hanging on a necklace BCUZ ITS FOR ME. If you need air, Ill give you air and space to panic, stay away from me and my SAFE SECOND. Ex. Panicing out of air diver approaching fron left side. Diver is out of air, hes gonna yank your air out in great panic, well, I hv my safe second, and i practiced procedures of replacing it while managing buoyancy and location.
Hi Alec, awesome to see you do a second iteration of this! One comment though, there is only "one role" to take off due to that the rest of the hose goes over the belly, and then the slack is wrapped on the tank. What the donator would do after first solving the urgent out of air situation, is to extend the hose from the tank, providing a long hose distance between them. Important for single lane penetration etc. (not recreational). So I totally agree with your point! long hose is not necessary for most recreational diving, and as a diver I guess you should ask yourself why you need a long hose before adopting it.
With backmount the hose runs down your back under your canister/pouch up your chest, and around your neck into your mouth. With sidemount you only pull out enough hose to go around your neck, the rest remains tucked in the tank bands to be pulled out during an emergency. Because of the annoyance of having to tuck the hose back in, typically you only pull out the hose during actual full training runs where you are going to stop and reset before you do something else.
If I were uncomfortable switching regulators underwater I would find another instructor. Long hose or not. I teach regulator recovery, in fact it's required by every agency. I've been an inactive instructor since 2007. By the way there is only one roll.
I certainly agree with this video. Long hoses are for tech divers who are penetrating wrecks, overhead environments, going through narrow opening etc. This is why the long hose was invented. For normal OW or Adv.OW recreational diving long hoses are not normally used. The use of a long hose requires specific training and practice.
I'd only clarify that any scuba configuration requires specific training and practice. Whether long hose or traditional routing, backplate/wing or jacket BC, regular practice in the pool or at the end of a dive with a consenting buddy is a must. :)
Specific training yes, and which is included in some openwater courses today. To donate your primary reg is not for tech divers only. Ask your self this in an out of air situation: who needs air most? Then be a good buddy, donate your primary and save the day;)
As I qualified in the early 1970s through the club system, ( CMAS, BSAC, RN & USN influences), can only comment on the chauvinism that has surfaced since that Advent of the commercials. The denigration of opposition shows a fear of discourse. I have always maintained when asked, that it is not the organisation, but the instructor that is important. I had buddy breathing drummed into me which stood me in good stead in a couple of incidences. I always use both 2nds on the dive and may end up using the octo. In the early days the 2nds had neckstraps that we removed and disdainfully called suicide straps. I have carried my octo in varying positions on a quick pull off clip, from accross my chest, on my rhs shoulder strap or on my BCs lower D ring. I like the idea of a longer coiled octo hose. (Although the practice of pinching the hose to put it through a D ring gives me the heebies!). The idea of shooting down other ideas if they do not line up with your organisation's mantras, leads to stagnation of improvements. Buddy pairs should be fimiliarised with each other's kit. Basically, horses for courses?
Could not agree with you more, however BSAC has banned the long hose hargothian routing , and one of the reasons was that to deploy the user had to roll forward losing control. Even NIs need training, I can remember being told to only use my computer as a backup, and that I am suspended from diving because I did a Trimix dive to 60 meters when only a sport diver (not a club dive, and TDI XR Adv Tri, and IANTD deco procedures and Adv Nitrox)_ Depends on the club I know, but from what they are saying they appear to be outlawing something that they do not understand. Hopefully they will review once they have looked at it in a bit more detail.
My friend and my brother were diving buddies at the recreational level. My friend ran out of gas, signaled to my brother about it but promptly pulled the primary regulator out of my brother's mouth. So much for the common practice of donating an octopus. Anyway, just saying that a person who trained the Hogarthian method from day one will be more familiar with donating a long hose than with donating an octopus, and vice versa. There's no need to be biased against the long hose.
No bias. But buying a long hose does not make a safer diver. Training, practice & regular trying of the system will. Of course this same premise applies to any equipment. My only beef is with dive stores that sell a piece of gear as a "lifesaver" but do not offer or specify the importance or training.
What happens when somebody surprises the person with a primary donate wrapped around their body and neck and just yanks it. Also I was taught SSI and was not taught primary donate.
Mr. Peirce, My understanding is the use of the "long hose" has its origin in cave diving as it would allow divers to exit narrow passages single-file which would be impossible using a "short hose" which requires divers to swim side-by-side. But I am not a historian on the subject and that particular bit of trivia is immaterial to the efficacious use of the long hose. ---------- FLURRY OF ACTIVITY Your critiqued the video demonstration you presented for not having any flurry of activity as might occur in an OOG emergency. If there were a flurry of activity as one might expect from a panicked diver underwater who is OOG, do you trust that person to act rationally or do you find it more plausible they will grab the first source of live-saving gas they see? ---------- INHALING WATER You suggested there is an increased risk of inhaling water to the diver donating their primary in the manner depicted in the video. It is known a human possesses an instinct to seal the lips when water is applied to the face. This reaction is particularly strong if the water is applied around the lips. Perhaps this is linked to the mammalian diving response, but the origin is unimportant. What is important is that it is real and it is why free divers who use a snorkel discard it immediately upon initiating their dive and it is what makes it possible for infants to swim. It does not seem plausible that a diver who is willfully donating their primary would inhale water. I shall not say it is impossible, only that I have never seen this happen nor have I ever heard of it happening. Are you aware of any such examples of this occurring? You are a far more experienced instructor than I. In all your decades of instructing thousands of students, perhaps such a situation as you described occurred with your students while doing regulator recovery underwater or regulator-snorkel exchange? ---------- Granted one victim is better than two, but how likely do you think it is that a diver who has just taken a breath cannot survive on that breath long enough to deploy their secondary which is on their necklace resting just below their chin? Donating the primary on a long hose is faster and guarantees both divers the recipient who is in a life-and-death situation is receiving a working regulator. Using the standard "octopus" approach, how do you *know* (we do not want to assume in life-and-death situations, we want to know) your secondary is functioning properly? Furthermore, a secondary on a necklace makes is far more easily and reliably deployed than an "octopus" on a short hose and the long hose makes donating to the left quite effective. ---------- DEMONSTRATIONS Your demonstration successfully demonstrated weaknesses of the short hose/octopus configuration. 1. How do you know your octopus is working before you donate it to an OOG diver, or worse: a panicked OOG diver? 2. Your demonstration required you to be in a vertical position not in a horizontal (“trim”) position while the scenario you described: taking photos of something on the sea floor would put you in a horizontal position covering your octopus with the sea floor. Even if you were vertical, you would likely be facing something of interest: a reef, wreck, pillar, or other physical obstruction preventing an OOG diver from approaching you in the manner in which you demonstrated. As they would need to approach you from the side your arm would be obscuring your octopus. And if you are in a proper horizontal diving position the same problem arises. It seems to me the first thing an OOG diver is going to see are your bubbles and the first thing they are likely to reach for is the regulator producing them. Do you think it is more or less likely that an OOG diver will reach for the regulator in your mouth if they are nearly "out of breath" or worse: panicked? 3. You stated the short hose will allow the OOG diver to be far away from you. This is not true. Unless you rig your octopus as left-handed and the OOG diver approaches you from the right because unless both of those conditions are satisfied the octopus is either going to have to be upside down in their mouth (which could pose a safety hazard for the OOG diver), the hose must be folded back upon itself, or routed across the back of the neck just like the long hose routing which you were so critical of only with much less hose to do it. I suspect had you tried to prove your claim in your demonstration you would have immediately realized one of the shortcomings of the short hose. What reason do you think training agencies have for teaching divers to face each other and maintain close distance with the "Roman handshake"? 4. If the OOG diver is going to take the primary out of the donating diver’s mouth by surprise, "short hose training" is not going to prepare the donor for what to do. Is it unreasonable to think that could lead to two panicked divers, perhaps even a struggle for control of the regulator? 5. If without warning a diver were to feel some unknown thing forcefully tugging at them, is it unreasonable to think they may be startled? Wouldn't the natural reaction for most divers be to turn quickly to investigate? Wouldn't such turning take up what little slack there is with a short hose and possibly pull the regulator from the mouth of the recipient diver? ---------- SECOND ROLL Your claim about a "second roll" of the long hose wrapping around the neck twice is simply wrong. The long hose properly worn is demonstrated correctly by the diver in the video clip you presented: it runs across the chest from right hip to left shoulder, routs behind the neck. There is no second roll or loop around the neck, it is not a noose. ---------- LONG HOSE IS NOT ESSENTIAL The accident history of recreational SCUBA diving is clear: the use of the long hose is NOT essential. In that way, I can find agreement with you. However, it does offer benefits without any meaningful trade-offs (a long hose is slightly more expensive than a short hose). With either configuration training is required for OOG emergencies. In my opinion, a short hose involves a more complicated and less robust technique. The long hose is also forward compatible. If the diver chooses to go on to do technical diving (e.g., cave and wreck penetrations) they do not need to replace old training with new training. ---------- REQUEST FOR RESPONSE You seem to have a very strong opinion regarding the use of the long hose which is without question based upon several significant misunderstandings. I hope you read this very long-winded post and find it merits your time to ponder and respond. I am interested to know your rebuttals to the arguments presented. Thank you for your videos. I have found them to be entertaining, interesting, and beneficial to expanding my knowledge base.
Expecting a detailed answer from someone who didn't bother to do proper research into the topic before making not one, but two videos claiming it's bad practice unless in very specific circumstances. Maybe there's a lot of clapback to his videos because he's spouting nonsense on topics he knows little about. Alec isn't a technical diver or technical dive instructor. His experiences lie in old school SCUBA, and that is fine. He can tell you a lot more about the history of SCUBA than most people. I just wish he wouldn't try to be the authority on things that are beyond his experience and knowledge. He has an adverse disposition to anything developed through TEC diving. He can't bring himself to say that a DIN connector is better than a Yoke, though he lists all the advantage of DIN over Yoke. He doesn't understand backplate and wing setups. He doesn't understand long hose setups. He doesn't understand sidemount, cave, or wreck diving. It's out of his wheelhouse.
@@bloodymarvelous4790 he seems like a nice man who goes too far in trying to attract non-divers to the activity by making it less intimidating. in one video he told said he told a guy to take his wife diving with dive computers they did not understand how to use and not worry about it. IMO, that crosses into professional negligence.
Really enjoy your series and the wealth of knowledge you are able to share. Many ‘TEC’ methods are freely adaptable to ‘REC’ diving and there is no reason not to benefit from them, it’s all diving. A newbie CAN certainly start out long hose. I think backplate and wing, long hose, with frog kick techniques is a winning combination that makes better, more confident, and safer divers. Try it yourself, I think you would have made a different video if you had some experience with it.
Thanks Richard. You assume I have not tried it which is not the case. However, my cave diving and wreck penetration days are long over (think Florida caves before grills were installed and when technical divers (myself included) wore a big, heavy brass hat). Like it or not, right or wrong, most divers today want to go diving now! That is, they are not prepared to spend the necessary money or time to develop the additional knowledge and skills required to properly use a backplate, wing, long hose, etc., hence the popularity of a 2-day certification scuba diving course. I cannot argue that these skills are not good but I will say they require more than a passing reference and scant minutes in a pool to master to a safe level. To say they should be included in all diver training is to suggest that the current programs need to be changed back the much longer courses of yesterday. That's going to be a tough sell. Alec
You can practice and train to be polite and courteous underwater. Then when someone starts panicking and they rip your regulator from your mouth, all that practice you did was worth nothing. 😂
Hi Alec, Did you see inner space explorers put out a video in response to your long hose video ? Not sure they even saw yours , or understood the point you were making.
Outch... I would have preferrd to have missed that. Why did they have to mention 'a certain video' that way? ISE has a special talent for marketing blunders. :(
as a divemaster for deep water charters I use long hose for work. if the guest needs help i know my primary works and it gives me distance from the panicking diver. i always brief the guest to let them i know i will give them my primary. thankfully i have not had to use it in a rescue situation yet, knock on wood. but i completely agree long hose only works in professional or technical situations, yearly recreational divers have no reason to be taking their regulators out of their mouths. thanks for the great vids as always.
Just adding to the hornets nest. I agree with Alec, 99% of all diving done on this planet is recreational diving. Most of this 99% will dive less than 8 times per year for a maximum of 5 years before giving up. We should be encouraging simplicity and standardization. Go and learn to fly if you want to look at the art of safety and standardization. If a pilot has an missed approach, there is only one way to manage it (world wide), if a pilot has a engine failure on take off, there is only one way to manage it. Scuba Diving has one of the highest levels of participant death of any recreational sport (per participation hour).... maybe we should start to study why that is..and a good start would be to look at how pilots are trained.
1 out of every 211,864 dives ending in fatality doesn't seem so great a number when compared with the fatality rates of other activities. For example: • 1 out of every 5,555 of registered drivers in the US died in car accidents in 2008 (www.cenus.gov). • 1 out of every 7692 pregnant women died from pregnancy complications in 2004 (National Center for Health Statistics). • 1 out of every 116,666 skydives ended in a fatality in 2000 (United States Parachuting Association). • 1 out of every 126,626 marathon runners died of sudden cardiac arrest while running a marathon between 1975-2003 (National Safety Council) Statistically, diving is safer than driving, having a kid, skydiving, or running a marathon.
Peter, your pilots are trained, statement shows your ignorance. They have studied this. The answer? A pilot is required to fill out a Pre flight check list, a diver is not. Your Statement and Alec's is what gets people killed.
I agree with you. The more I see content about scuba, the more I realise how customisation is huge in this industry. Everyone has a different setup and procedures and gear and no one really cares. BTW I should add that not all pilots are trained the same. Especially Russian and Chinese have some particularities but all in all it is standardized
@@almerindaromeira8352 You are correct on all account. That said, even Russian and Chinese pilots have a pre-flight check list, or at leas they use to. Generally when things go wrong, it started with the Pre-Dive Checklist, especially Re breathers, to my understanding.
Dear god of diving, today I sinned. I panicked a little little bit while mask clearing 😂😂😂 i hadn’t dived for 6 month and had a whole new setup ( my first stage blocked a little bit while doing mask clearing, maybe o ring lube? ) I won’t do it again. Love your vids Alec you thought me much. I have 7 logged dives now, did my first dive today with a whole new setup. Everything worked out fine, had 56 minutes at 12m and I saw about 6-7 seaturtels and leopard stingray feeding on seegras 😍 thanks for your advice
Couple of issues i see with primary donate: 1) if you dive a full face mask, it's not possible (and FFMs are increasingly popular) 2) The "give your buddy your primary because your secondary might not work/be full of crabs/be to hard to breath from" what happens to me then? Do i politely have to ask my paniced buddy for my primary back? It certainly has it's place, but it's no panacia for all ills, that's for sure!
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter RE: 2) What happens to your OOA buddy if you give them a secondary that "might not work/be full of crabs/be to hard to breath from". I don't use it myself but one thing the primary donate ensures is that your secondary is as good as your primary.
Hi Alec. I think most people here are not seeing your point. A long hose is not safer just because is long. Every equipment has a purpose. Would it work for something else?, most likely. Most divers will not be able to maintain a perfect horizontal trimmed position in an emergency while sharing air, like you see in tech diving videos. And then go up in a perfect horizontal trimmed position. Also most recreational divers will never have to swim long horizontal distances under an overhead during an emergency. The procedure taught of grabbing your buddy's BC, using his/her primary or safe second, depending on what you briefed prior to diving, and then go up, not horizontally trimmed but just in a vertical position still works. Even "Buddy breathing" works if it comes down to it. If you dive solo do you need a long hose?. Probably not. What you need is redundancy. If you dive in visibility where you don't even see your partner, do you need a long hose? Must likely you will not even find your buddy in an emergency. Will I go cave diving without the proper equipment (including the long hose) and training? No. I also follow Achim from inner space explorers. Although he is a tech diver/instructor he has an interesting video th-cam.com/video/VecUuDo3bjE/w-d-xo.html about not always having to use tech diving techniques all the time. Keep up with the excellent work
Really enjoy this video since it comes from accumulated experience. Have stumbled across this training agency that basically “demands” that all there students use the same standardised equipment setup (which includes long hose as a standard configuration), from basic to tech/cave. The notion seems to be: “Good enough for the most extreme circumstances, good enough for the simplest of circumstances”. A bit “militaristic” and it seams to prepare students for dive types they might never want to participate in.
Then don't pick that training agency. Some training agencies are designed to prepare you for more advanced diving from the get go. This means they teach you techniques that will work in any situation, and you A) don't need to relearn techniques later on, and B) won't buy SCUBA gear you will need to replace when you advance. This training agency will probably also need you to use a backplate and wing setup instead of a jacket-style BCD.
I appreciate Alec's demo, but the comparison simply is off. If every ow diver was trained identically, regularly checked their equipment and kept their safe second in the same place, then sure. The reality is buddy checks are skipped, octo regs are often cheap and lower quality and each diver puts their octo reg in a different spot with a different attachment method. Sure, a long hose needs training too, but it's not a forgotten piece of equipment for a sidemount diver. You won't see me using it when I buddy with an inexperienced OW diver, but if I dive with another sidemount diver I know their secondary works and is where I expect it. Don't use a long hose without a Tec mindset.
Good points but I'm still diving because I know my gear, I check my buddies gear (even my wife's), and dive my training limits. That's how to get 5,000+ dives safely. Appreciate your feedback. Alec.
I dive a long hose. It is quite come in my group of divers. There is no tug on your reg as you turn head. if you have to donate it you know for sure that you are donating a working reg, when you do donate it you can be clear of the diver in case they are panicking. One thing to note is an out of air diver does not usually just forget to check their air. they could have a malfunction or freeze up
Hmm I love your videos but I cannot agree with this entirely or perhaps I'm biased. Conditions in out of gas situations are never ideal. What if your buddy is to far away from you or at a different depth or you are on your belly in the mud. Then you swim towards your buddy while searching for your backup where a long hose is deployed within a second. For open water you can use a smaller 5 foot hose. I see your backup is very nicely placed but often divers stow them in between their bcd or pockets and it's remarkable difficult to control proper ascent speed or a safety stop during an octo ascent. But yeah it comes down to proper training. As long as divers aren't trained for this, don't use it. Some agencies train students from owd level with a long hose but generally speaking they don't. Don't just buy it without proper training.
Hi Carlo. This debate is as long and divided as Sea Nova fins vs Rocket fins. I offer up suggestions to educate / inform divers on ideas they may not have considered before. My view is if you are equipped, trained, and confident with your buddy in a particular setup, have fun diving. As I said with other subjects, there really is no "best" anything in scuba (my view after 60 years). Definitely pros and cons but a smart diver thinks about their setup not just copies it to look cool. Appreciate your views and dive safe in whatever gear you prefer.
You made a lot of good points but you also missed a lot of points as to why divers prefer to use a primary donate. Also you should be paying attention to those around you in the water. Check out Achim Schlöffel at ISE
I experienced an out of air myself where my cousin was on a long hose. The good thing of having that long hose is we had plenty of space moving around still, or where i moved under him and we could get to the exit point safely. Where with a shorter octopus you have to be really close to each other and there is not alot of freedom of movement.
The long hose was developed for use in confined spaces - caves, wrecks, etc. In those circumstances it's perfect. Otherwise it's a nuisance. You would'd take a dump truck to a Drive-In movie. You wouldn't pick up a load of gravel in a Toyota Tercel. Alec
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter wow Alec that certainly reveals some pent up frustration. If we did not evolve, we would still be diving with no BC or worse an ABLJ, the Buddy Commando was slated by some training agencies when it was first marketed. I have enjoyed many of your videos and feel that you have provided a great service to the dive community. This is obviously causing you some serious worries, perhaps take some training to ensure that you have the correct config and reasons for using it and then do another video with a more balanced perspective. I would prefer that if I had to exit in surf in an emergency, I would much prefer a two meter hose than a standard config. Overhead Environment or not.
12:38 that would only be helpful if you're diving vertically for some strange reason. if you're in proper trim, your buddy would not see your safe 2nd on your chest.
Definitely i'm agree with you, you don't need a long hose for a 18m (60ft) open water dive, in the rare case of having a running out gas dive buddy your concern will be keeping your buddy close to you and try to ascent in a safe rate, in case of not being experienced enough to manage the problem we should remember the rule of "first my safety, then my safety and at the end my safety"
Rec night dive down to about 75 ft, working our way to shore. Whole group was drysuit, doubles tec config, but it was a rec dive. Near the end of dive, my buddy signals out of air at about 15 ft. If I was on "normal" setup, he would take my alternate and we would go up and swim to the shore. No biggie, right? I had a better idea. Donated my primary, took my bunggied second in my mouth, showed my pressure to my buddy (over 100 bars) and we continued following the bottom up. Was it unsafe? No, it wasn't, we could go up an time we wanted. You're right, you do not need long hose, but I still have to see a situation where it is unsafe to have one. Better to have and not need it, than don't have when needed.
@@admiki9808 in your example what makes any difference it is your doubles rig not the lenght of the hose, but now i have a question, why do you need a doubles rig for a non deco 75 ft shore entry dive?
@@kostainseattle considering that i wasn't able to deploy a dsmb or i don't have any, no matter if i have a long hose or a yellow hose octopus if i'm getting out of air i will have to go to the surface or drown
Great perspective. I thought about going the hogarthian way. But realized I scuba for fun and the Scuba Nazi's of that style did not fit my style. If i were interested in caves and other high risk areas i would probably be into and more acceptable to that method. But i do want to try sidemount just for having 2 tanks for more air and not on my back. So i believe we should take in all information to learn. And then adapt any skills, techniques, equipment that meets our individual needs.t
No one says that you have to go full DIR. Unless you step in the den of the beast, like Extreme Exposure, no one will care if you don't jump into it whole hog. And if they do give them the finger and jump in the water.
Hi! Alec Pierce Scuba.. I have a serious question. I have a custom skirt fitted mask from a dive school. Fits my face better than any1 i see in the water. I can make my mask fully dry during the whole dive, because the skirt fits so snug on my face. How come we dont have more custom dive masks? I have a SeaVision Mask, custom skirt, and color correction, exclusive from SPE Dive School, near DC. Owned by Mike Parker, who is also a Dive legend just like you!!! you probably met him before.
I know Mike Parker, a very innovative guy. The first dive mask in North America was custom fitted to each diver's face. Of course that was because each was hand made. There were no commercial mask available then. I have one of only 3 remaining examples of that mask. I did a video on it in my Vintage Scuba playlist. Today a custom-fitted mask would be too much money for most to consider. Alec
Alec -- Great videos!!!! don't let the haters get you down. that is how you know you are getting popular. the complainers are probably keyboard divers. and i do the long hose thing but i got it from my cave diving training, the thinking was that if you are in a cave only big enough for one person and you or your buddy runs out of air, the out of air person gets the long hose and you leave the cave single file, one behind the other if you will. but yes you are right people get wrapped around the axel. on this,
I got my OW with bp/w and long hose. Not sure what's the extra complexity, but I know that air-sharing also in rec levels is safer, more controlled, and more comfortable, without requiring contact with the other divers.
@@mariosx12: I do agree on your vision. I started of with bp/w with long hose. Much more comfortable and safer than ‘basic’ setup. Everything is just personal preferences. Once you are used to it, nothing’s better.
I think the “standard setup” is ok until you get in overhead environments. I use the standard setup in backmount and the long hose in sidemount. By the way, the only time I had to share my air I was with a long hose outside a rec in Florida. For me, I would prefer to use the long hose exclusively just for the sake of consistency when I respond in an emergency. But this would require to instruct my buddy the procedure if he/she is out of air. By the way, Alec, I assume you do not carry your spg loose as in your example.
Good points Luis and glad to hear you acknowledge your buddies training and setup also. My dive computer is secure in water but hoses flop all over trying to take a picture. Alec
I think carefully is the right word. A Ferrari are no different than any other standard, high-performance sports car. They are really just a very fast MG. Alec
I think the most important point is the question after the proper training. I personally got familiar with the Long Hose as well as other eqipment and procedures discussed here when i moved from recreational to tecnical diving. So for that type of diving I know what is my safe post as well as why I always follow the concept of Priary Donate. (Donating the Long Hose is just one possible variation of this. Think about diving with multiple Stages containing different gas-mixtures. Which one is safe to breath at that moment? For sure that on in the divers mouth) So from my perspective Alec is asking the right question. What is the benefit or added value of diving a long hose in a pure recreational dive where multiple stage cilnder which may contain mixtures that can´t be used over the whole dive and/or restrictions that force the dive team into certain formations for sure are not present? Why change to mor complicated and for sure more demanding system / set of rules when the bacic necessety to do so is not present? just my 2 Cent
When I was a brand new diver I have been trained with a long hose and necklace with a BP/W (the instructor is a tech diver and that's how he says he'll teach his divers) and that's how I dive and I disagree with most of your points. -It is not "standard" for recreational divers, yes, but that's the kind of thing you will simply mention to your buddy during the briefing, especially that my long hose is bright yellow, if they insist on looking for the yellow hose, -taking a regulator out of your mouth does not create a "dangerous situation" because why would it? I can just go to my secondary which I know is on my neck and has no physical way of going away, which brings me to the third point, -panicked buddy in an out of air situation will most likely rip a regulator out of your mouth (and always at a moment as you're about to inhale and have no air in your lungs) regardless of your setup which - in the case of a long hose and necklace - you're very quick to resolve by going to your necklace, if this happens with a standard setup and your buddy snatched your primary air because he couldn't find your octo - what are the odds of you being able to find it quickly at the same situation as your buddy was a second ago - and now that creates a dangerous situation. I find this video simply unnecessary and more like an attempt to discredit divers on a long hose as if they are doing something wrong than anything else.
Your welcome to share your views here as they were respectfully made. As for this being an unnecessary video, no agreement. Divers young and old need to be exposed to changing gear, training, and procedures to expand their knowledge. As for being a 'standard', i counted the number of drive trips i led/joined in the last 5 years and came to 8 trips. The number of long hose divers in all those trips = Zero. Why? Because from teen to stone age diver, they all setup and used the 'standard' gear setup, aka not long hose. Also I checked back in the trip material from these liveabords and resorts, none mentioned long hose setup once. My point is the long hose is used by a group of divers for a purpose they believe requires it, however, none of the major training agencies, travel groups or resorts state is it mandatory, if mentioned at all. My point was to introduce long hose techniques to those who may never have heard of it so they are aware of it as a option. Thanks for your feedback Hunter and hope my reply is also accepted with understanding. Take care and dive safe.
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter I think it would be fine if the video focused more on showing the divers that don't know about this kind of setup that it does exist and it is completely fine and they should not be afraid of diving with someone with such gear and ask for air - that I 100% agree with. I don't agree with demonizing the setup and spreading fear among divers who never saw something like this and implying that sharing air this way is dangerous. Additionally - I don't want to switch from my long hose because that's the way I've been trained, that's the way I dive and I want to do technical diving in the near future, which would make no sense for me to switch at this point. I think it's good if everyone is comfortable with their gear and confident in their abilities. With that said, thank you for taking the time and a response, safe diving to you too, sir!
Hi Alec. In a few of your videos you have referred to the safe second is only for other dummies to use, this may be true but have you never had a primary failure for some reason? I heard of a couple of failures of secondary's because of foreign material (bad hose rubber bits) plugging up the valve opening? In your fifty years of diving you can't have been that lucky. Or perhaps a torn diaphragm or exhaust valve?take care Owen m
In over 6000 dives, from Alaska to Fiji, I have never had a piece of scuba gear fail catastrophically. That is, fail to give me enough air to sustain life. I've had some crappy regs, some wet regs, some dives where I was extremely short of air and other terribly unlikely things happen (almost all due to my stupidity), but modern scuba gear, even if not well-maintained will not fail, at least not to point of placing the diver at death's door. Won't say it can't happen or even that it hasn't happened but never heard of it or seen it happen. Alec
Hi mwwhited thanks for your thoughts, I was only relaying info from some other scuba sites, I have never had this happen to me, however as a mechanic I do realize that unexpected failures do occur, thus the need for the safe second. take care Owen m
yes this long hose looks like it's not fitting for most divers, i hole heartily agree with your thinking, do not mess with the standard safe second lay out as it is, it works just fine.
Straight forward and sensible. I'm a bit curious on the Hoegarthian set up but it sounds like some of the divers here wouldn't need to use it if they just did thorough buddy checks, and didn't stray too far from each other on dives. This would stop most of these "panicked," scenarios from occurring in the first place. In an out of air in rec open water sure you'd both ascend ASAP. No need for your buddy to be four foot away from you for that. If they're out of air, including their BC that'd turn them into an anchor on a long hose. Fair play Alec. Keep up the good work. :)
If they're an anchor on your long hose, they're an anchor on your octo as well. And your buddy not being correctly weighted isn't a reason to go for one or the other. The long hose also isn't so another diver can reach it from further away. You're not throwing it at them. The OOA diver needs to come and collect the regulator. The long hose is useful so the panicked diver doesn't need to stay in your face. He can move more freely. Take some more distance to sort himself out. Or in a constricted space follow behind you, or swim out in front of you, without anybody getting kicked in the face.
Great videos keep them coming! I breathe the long hose. A lot of the diving in the UK is on wrecks with penetration so, as you rightly said, it adds significantly to safety in this circumstance. I also use the long hose on recreational dives. On recreational dives I believe both systems are equally safe BUT this is all down to training. Only once in 21 years of diving (17 on the long hose) have I actually had reason to use my necklace reg. During that incident the situation was very well manage by my buddy and myself, there was no drama. I would definitely say the extra hose length helped a lot to keep the situation under control. Having said that should a learner diver start on the long hose. ABSOLUTELY NOT. Training at the beginner level needs to be kept as simple as possible. It has always amazed me how much vehement comment this one simple change to dive kit has produced. It is just a hose, with training it is safe, without it it is not.
All very good points Stuart and thanks for sharing. My key first point was always that new divers need simple, understandable skills if they are to stay with this sport. An O/W diver with 4 dives is not ready for long hose training when buoyancy and descent/ascent skills need practice first. Take care sir.
8:35 No, there's just one 'roll'. The long hose doesn't warp around the neck, it comes from your right cylinder, passes from right to left in front of your chest, passes behind the neck to the right hand side of the reg. The majority of the length of the long hose is stowed on the cylinder via elastic bands and only deployed in an emergency, which the video clip didn't show.
Yep, There are lots of videos about the correct deployment of the long hose. My point here is simply to suggest that for most divers, the standard octo is simple, easy, cheap, well-understood and recognized. Alec
To each his own, but objectively the pros of a long hose config (quite a few of which you failed to mention) easily outweigh the cons. Any diver worth his salt should be comfortable taking his primary out of his mouth. And let's be honest here, the primary donate procedure is not a very complicated thing to learn (and no, there is no second roll). There is nothing tech or difficult about it and it simply makes way more sense, as long as your buddy is in the know of course. It's okay to admit that old procedures and habits may have to be updated when a better idea comes along. That said, I really like your channel and appreciate you taking part in this discussion.
Thanks Frank. All reasonable discussions welcome here. If you want to start a flame war in scuba, say one fin is better than another then stand back. Makes long vs short hose debates seem tame!!
I'm ready to start a flame war so I'll just say it, the RIGHT fin is far superior to the left,hands down, and any diver, instructor, institution, or shop that attempts to brainwash you into thinking otherwise is not fit for the scuba community and should stay out of the water
Ok this is a pretty contentious one... I’m a recent convert to a long hose setup, donating my primary in an emergency and moving to my backup on a short hose / necklace setup. I can’t find any reason why I would go back to the ‘standard’ setup. In your scenario everything was smooth and easy, and as you said your ‘buddy’ wasn’t in a rush. The reason for my change was a) a lot of research, and b) dealing with an OOO diver who came up and took my reg out of my mouth as he was drowning. 1) The first reg a drowning person sees will be the first reg a drowning person goes for. Regardless of colour, the thing that’s blowing lovely life saving bubbles will be what they go for - aka the reg in your mouth. Studies have shown this to be the case, as has personal experience. 2) Again in your scenario your ‘buddy’ pulled your octo and then happily swam alongside you. Movement whilst sharing air in this setup is literally impossible... why run the risk of removing your ability to move? So... my primary is on a yellow 7’ long hose. If my buddy (or anyone for that matter) is in trouble, they take that (either because it’s yellow and they see it, or because it’s blowing bubbles out of it and they see it) and I just switch to my necklace which is always in the same position and can be found blindfolded. DSMB’s, lift bags and even octos were all originally ‘just for specific tec purposes’ and are now mainstream. I see no reason why the standard setup won’t be replaced by the long hose donate setup in the future. In the same way back inflate and BP/W BCD’s are gaining a lot of traction but were once rarities...
Todays standard recreational setup took many decades to evolve into safe and widely taught courses. Anyone can transition from OW to longhouse or back plates or tech or HOG setups. The vast majority of recreational divers stay with the standard setup after OW certification for comfort, cost and compatible with other divers. I want divers to branch out, learn new skills and experiences, diving has so many branches to explore. It's up the the training agencies to adapt their curriculum to what divers need to be safe, have fun and keep on diving. Sorry for the long response, my fingers got away from me. Thanks Alec
Please look to people who understand long hose diving to get a deeper explanation of it. Alec is not one of those people. I was originally taught scuba diving with a long hose and backplate and wing. I only dove the 6 times in the class. Years later when I starting diving again, rather than take a single day refresher course, I took another full scuba course. The 2nd course had the standard setup, jacket BC, and standard reg with an octo. During this second scuba class, I could easily see that diving with a long hose setup was more comfortable and safer than the traditional 'safe second' style setup. The most dangerous creature in the water is not a shark, it is an out of air diver. An out of air diver will not calmly and rationally wait for you to give them your octo. They need air... FAST! They are going to grab the reg that they know is working, the reg in your mouth. Maybe you have dove with your dive buddy for decades. Maybe you trust them implicitly. That does not mean they will be the only person who is going to come to you for air. With the long hose, if they grab the reg out of your mouth, you simply bow your head slightly to allow for the ONE loop of hose around your neck to slide off. While your head is closer to your chest, grab your secondary reg, or necklace and put it on your mouth. The long hose is typically 5 or 7 feet. Either works, and I've dove with both. There is a high likelihood that an out of air diver is a panicked diver. You don't want a panicked diver up in your face and the long hose can give you and the rescued diver some much needed breathing room. Alec, of you do not understand the correct terminology, you do not know enough to make a video teaching others about it.
@@bill2292 Dave is right, how many RL Rescue scenarios have you been involved with? Have you taken a Rescue or DM course? Have you worked as a DM? If you had, your would apologize for your statement.
I appreciate your comments Dave. 1. I clearly stated that my expertise was not with the long hose. 2. I clearly stated that the long hose has a legitimate use. 3. I clearly sated that current divers will not grab your primary. That's very old school thinking brought to life again to support the long hose concept. Accepting that also requires you to accept Buddy Breathing as legitimate. 4. I clearly stated that it was a mistake to extend the use of the long hose from its original purpose to become a solution to an OOA situation. It was NOT initiated nor developed for that purpose and does NOT suit that role well. You seem to be sensitive about your preference for the long hose - an indication that you are unsure. If you must fight to get others to agree with you, perhaps the issue is not the ignorance of others. I have been in more than a few U/W scenarios that could easily have become disasters. Sitting in a classroom debating the possible actions of others and what we should do is not an acceptable solution. While there were some technical errors in my description of the deployment of the long hose, the debate over whether I should remove my primary in an OOA emergency is long over. It's NOT going to happen. Hopefully my dive buddy is properly trained and savvy enough to know where his salvation lies - not in my mouth but hanging out there, brightly colored, on a longer hose, waiting for him to take it. Rather than discuss with your dive buddy the use of the long hose in its new and false role as an OOA solution, perhaps you should discuss the use of the much easier and safer use of the standard Safe Second. Alec
Great video Alec! I am going to give my two cents on the subject. Last summer when i took my SSI ow certification i was taught to always donate my primary regulator to an out of air diver. When in the water practicing this procedure (with the standard hose configuration) me and my buddy realise that it is a very inefficient use of hose length and in the end not practical. We are now looking to switch procedure and we will probably try the medium hose (5ft) primary donate procedure. Anyways i thought you might be interested to know that SSI teaches primary donate. Again great work Alec your videos have made me an informed diver.
the 5 footer is okay...... but it tends to get in the way and gets snaggy. rubber hoses do better than flex hoses. rubber stays put and flex hoses tend to float away from your body. you can tuck it in your waist or use an octo pocket if your BC has one, but its not as convenient as the long hose. the direct primary air share works decent in a pool, laying on the bottom, face to face. Hovering over a reef of fire coral, or suspended over the edge of a 1000 foot deep wall...... ehhhhh........ give me the longer of the hoses please. lol
I'm not sure if you saw this, but InnerSpace explorers made a video in response to this th-cam.com/video/IL77F3K5Hz4/w-d-xo.html. Basically, he said that all (recreational) divers who use a backmounted single should use a long hose and backplate/wing. I think it's a tool for a job, like anything. Recreational divers usually have poor buoyancy, trim, and propulsion anyways so introducing a long hose doesn't do any good since they would probably struggle to maintain trim while deploying it. As a cave diver, we need to exit in a single file in the event there are tank failures in the deepest point of penetration and the long hose has the length to do so. Personally, I think that open water divers need to be trained at a higher level like what GUE does.
It's always interesting to me when specialist (ie tec) divers want recreational dives who do maybe 6-12 a year typically to move up to their view of what a diver should be. Training agencies train many thousands of rec divers yearly who like and want simple underwater fun, not more gear, more training, just fun. The current 'standard' setup for rec does that very well IMO. If you have a setup that you like, long hose, backplate, wing, etc, enjoy it and share with others. Telling occasional divers to do more is a bit of an ego push. Happy divers using safe gear makes our sport fun and growing. Maybe when CCR's become as simple as todays rec setup, everyone will jump to CCR's. Who knows. I have see so many changes in gear, training and diver wants that anything is possible, but not today. A
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter I agree. Tec and cave divers have equipment, protocols, and methodology that works well with their type of diving. There is no way I'm entering a cave system with single tank and "octo." At the same time, I won't hesitate to put on a jacket BC in the open water for a recreational dive. Many CCR divers see open circuit as foolish. I don't know as I don't dive rebreathers but it's all a matter of perspective. Same as the long hose - its supporters stand by it based on their experience and training.
Something confuses me about the long hose system. Why isn't the safe second on a long hose and coiled neatly against the right ribs and the short hose used as the primary? I have heard the argument that in an out of air situation, the diver may rip the reg out of your mouth, but I think training people to use the bright yellow octo will help prevent that. I think training recreational divers to use long hose actually make that more likely. And there is also the risk that the mouthpiece will come off the regulator as they grab it. I don't know, I am not a very experienced diver, so maybe this is just ignorance. It just seems like the way long hose is used is kind of the worst option of the 3. Having a longer hose octo would make training from recreational to technical more seamless in this regard.
@@robdahlgren0506 I dive primarily in sidemount especially in caves. This means that I am switching regulators between my two cylinders constantly. At any given time, I am on my long hose or short hose. I do not have a "safe second;" I have two primary regulators. It doesn't matter though because I am always donating my long hose in either case. For doubles, you are always breathing off the long hose and the secondary is on a necklace. Why? Because like you said, the long hose is coiled around your neck. If someone was out of air and it was stowed away, they would strangle me (if I wasn't quick enough to move the hose) if they were to grab for it. That's why I am breathing off of it so I can control the situation since its in my mouth. They have no choice but to follow my lead since I am the one who is level headed in that situation. Personally, I am fine with any donate setup in recreational open water dive as long as it's not absurd.
@@aliasincognito0 Thanks for the response. I am still a little confused, though. Speaking to normal single tank recreational use, if I have the long hose wrapped around my neck and my buddy is trained to use that in an out of air situation, how does that reduce the chances of my being strangled if he grabs for it? If the long hose were used as a safe second and coiled in such a way that it will release when the pulled, it just sounds safer to me. It seems like a panicked diver is going to rip the reg from my mouth while it is wrapped around my neck. While training doesn't always kick in for people during emergency situations, it just sounds wrong to train people to look at the regulator in my mouth as their next option.
I am a relatively new diver, and we were taught primary donate at the beginner's class (SSI, a year ago). The reason stated was that you are giving your buddy a regulator you do know that work, and if the person is panicked, they will grab for anything, so I did convert to a a long hose setup, so that you have a longer hose to donate in case of emergency (However I am preparing to be able to penetration wreck dive in the future, as there are some certain wrecks that are on my diving bucket list). I am not really too invested in which emergency procedure is used, as long as I know, what my buddy uses, and he/she knows what I will do.
There are many reasons that the Long Hose is better, and many that are not. In my mind there is ONE reason that the long hose adds risk (familiarity / Training).. I am an ex Techie, it just became too big an investment in cash, effort and time to maintain my skills, pay for gas, equipment maintenance, training dives before major exploration dives etc. I now dive with my son in the UK, he is a PADI Open Water and I only wish that my buoyancy had been as good when I was at his level. So he is a PADI Open Water and I no longer do 80, 90 metre dives, so I would be remiss if not using a standard setup. Well that is a matter of opinion of course, but yes I do dive a long hose. I too have seen divers with a long hose looped around their neck, THIS IS WRONG, these divers need training. So why? there are many reasons for both, but these are my reasons for diving a long hose: 1. I know that it is working, because I am breathing from it 2. I AM RESPONSIBLE FOR MY GAS - somebody using your octopus without your knowledge is dangerous to you and means that you have lost control, I have seen divers think this is funny???. Primary Donate precludes this from happening. 3. I have had two out of air situations that caused me issues, both newly serviced kit that failed after a check out dive where they appear to be perfect. Both times I was at depth exceeding 30 metres at the time. Both were with a team using long hose and both were conducted without anything more that the dive being canned early. And a full and frank discussion with the service centre. 4. For Divers that have poor bouyancy control, you need to make contact and a vertical position is always better in these circumstances, but this is easily achieved with Long Hose, and just requires the hose to be put back in the belt. 5. I cannot justify this, but a BPW with long hose is more comfortable for me, I am more streamlined, my trim is spot on, know where everything is and when it is needed muscle memory takes over. So why would I not use a long hose: 1. To look Techie, we all know they are out there and have no clue what they are doing. 2. My son took his OW with a standard BC and has standard kit (wing BC). If he was not willing to do drills, I would be force to go back to standard. 3. We know who you are: Holiday divers, who have lost their skills over the winter Divers that do not listen to briefings Divers who think a buddy check can be performed with a sideways glance If you are diving with a numpty, no long hose, it just gets in the way, and if the worst happens they are more likely to suffer uncontrolled panic, because despite your best efforts they were not listening when you explained it to them. 4. Unwilling to do a drill every dive. At the start of the descent: 3-5 meters away from the shot if possible unclip the longhose from canister / knife and show buddy that it is not tangled and is ready to deploy Breath from safe second so you know that it is working re-clip and go dive 5. Diving with an agency that precludes a long hose. It is your choice to dive with them, and therefore you have to abide by the standards of the agency / club that you dive with. In summary I think that for me diving with my son and wife, long hose makes sense, for diving with somebody unwilling to spend two mins in water check / drill, probably not. For somebody that an S-Drill is a type of shoe, also notbut NO is a strong word, and I have to agree to disagree. Love the Videos and wish you well.
My sincere thanks Lee on this excellent, and unbiased comment. I hope others read it and decide for themselves which technique best meets their personal diving profiles. Take care and thanks for watching.
Your mistake may be that you took the service technician for granted. That's what I call a 'trust me' dive. Before leaving the dive outlet I always test the reg out. In one incident, air was streaming out of the turret. The second mistake is that you should have done several shore dives to test the equipment is working satisfactorily. I disagree with you on looking like a technical diver. Most OW divers using the long hose are being prepped to go tech.
Thank you Alec, for not making me feel like a young stupid smartass diver. I've encountered a lot of older divers who wouldn't say anything else than "give away your primary because you're sure it works". Some divers in their 30's or 40's I know still think like that... For rescue purposes, I've got an octo clamped to a 2.10 meters orange fluorescent hose on my side. Quite visible, and one would grab that first instead of grabbing the one in my mouth!
Knowing that it works is the #1 reason I'm not going to give it away. If anyone is going to take a chance with my octopus, it gets to be the other person. And Alec, thanks for fixing the video. Better this time, and hard to argue with. Of course, there is the matter of rec divers using seconds on their BC inflator hose, which they will have to switch to in an emergency, but those dive teams can discuss primary donate at the beginning of the dive (and hope people remember in a panic). All the jokes about vegans being so anal would seem to transfer across pretty easily to DIR divers.
You guys ever do equipment checks? Breathing 3 breaths in the water before you submerge? What do you think is going to happen if you donate a reg that doesn't work?
@@kostainseattle I've seen way too many divers who had their backup reg come loose from whatever type of holder they used. It may have worked fine while testing it at the beginning of the dive, but after dragging it around behind them in the mud, it may not work so well later. The idea of giving the OOA diver a known working reg is that they are either panicking or could be near panic. You want to calm them down. You would have just taken a breath from your primary, so you have a bit of time before you need another breath. A diver with a long hose and a backup on a necklace never has to worry about their backup coming loose or getting fouled.
Alec - I have enjoyed all of your videos, respect your opinion on many matters and am happy to see you have corrected your earlier video on this topic. However I disagree with you on several points made in this video. You say the Long-Hose arrangement is made for one purpose only (penetration/overhead etc) and so use of it for any diving outside of this (or training for it) is therefore unnecessary and unsafe. I think this is wrong. The purpose of your alternate regulator is to enable you to give gas to another diver if they require it (out of gas/equipment malfunction etc) and so the correct thing to do is to assess how best to do that - what makes gas sharing easier or harder. Irrespective of an overhead environment, need to leave a wreck/cave in single file or being in open water the extra length afforded by a long hose (and therefore distance between the two divers) means that two people can easily, comfortably and safely breath from one persons gas supply and ascend to the surface at their planned, safe ascent speed. Whilst a standard octopus-style set up allows two people to share gas I do not feel it allows them to do so comfortably, therefore their ascent profile is compromised and thus their safety. In addition with a long hose/bungied secondary setup I know exactly where both of my regulators are at any one time allowing quick and easy swapping between them as needed (if my primary 2nd stage gets dislodged then its an easy matter to swap to the secondary 2nd stage I know is under my chin). I have seen too many standard set-ups where the octopus has become dislodged from the clip holding it, or when people attempt to use it it has become tangled and thus difficult to use. My wife has learnt to use a long hose from her first open water course, I switched shortly after my OW, and she has never struggled with the use of it, or gotten herself "tangled up". I/we regularly practice gas sharing ascents/swims and the long hose is an integral part of being able to do this whilst comfortably controlling our buoyancy, trim and ascent speed and profile. The long hose does, however, have one disadvantage - it is long and therefore requires thought as to how to stow it and I have yet to see a suitable solution for a jacket style BCD.
Thanks for your comments. You and your buddy are doing things perfectly. Most do not. Very few divers in my experience, extensive if I may be immodest, practice their emergency skills at all much less regularly. In that case, ANY emergency is going to be difficult. Having decided to adopt the long hose concept and further, practicing it regularly with your normal buddy, is excellent diver practices. You do bring up an excellent point - how long should the Safe Second hose be? The standard octo hose is 40" long. That's almost twice as long as a primary hose and should place the diver at the optimal distance - far enough away that the divers can operate with interference of each other but close enough that they can communicate and stabilize each other if needed. A 7' hose is so long that it almost itself becomes part of the problem - too much hose!! Certainly if the OOA diver is at the end of the 7' he is not able to effectively communicate (not in our water anyway) and certainly is not close enough to allow the donor to assist him with buoyancy or anything else. Consider that a diver who is 7' away is beyond the recommended distance to still be a buddy diver. A buddy is supposed to be within reaching distance at all times. This added to all of the other technical difficulties of the long hose practice makes one start to question its use - as I'm doing. Take care. Alec
Neil, Very well stated. I think (NOTE the phrase "I think", therefore this is OPINION on best practice, and not FACT) that the mistake made in this video is to inextricably associate a long hose configuration with tech diving. The history of diving (and I have not been diving for anything like the years that Alec has) shows us that some practices that began as "dangerous tech practices, only for the highly trained" can make it into mainstream recreational diving because it is a better practice and dogma gives way to common sense. An example is the use of Nitrox - once vilified as too dangerous and only for Tech Divers is now mainstream and used safely on millions of dives every year. IMHO, before discussing the length of the hose, the discussion should center on whether or not to donate the primary or safe second in an out of gas situation. The agency that I teach for asks instructors to teach both (I think that this is wise as a diver could encounter both configurations), but recommends donating primary as best practice. I think that we will see more of a swing in this direction over time across all agencies. Once that is determined, then decide how long the hose should be. It can be as short as a 40" hose passed under the right arm or over the right shoulder. It could be a 5' "Long hose" passed across the chest and around the neck or a 7' Long Hose across the chest and around the neck. For what it's worth, when diving Open Water recreational configurations with a single tank I much prefer a 6' hose and I have used this configuration since shortly after my Open Water certification because, having researched the pros & cons, talked to some divers that I respect and considered the best option for my buddy's safety (which, at the time, was my 14 year old son), I concluded that the longer hose gave us more options in an out of air situation (which, by the way, never occurred - except in practice simulations, which we did frequently). In conclusion. I think (NOTE: "I think" - opinion, not dogma) that, as an industry, we should carefully consider innovations in equipment and configurations and evolve, adopting what we deem to make the sport safer and more enjoyable and not be too dogmatic. I'm NOT advocating chasing every new fad just because it looks cool, or there was an article about it somewhere, but we should judiciously evolve our configurations as more information becomes available.
@@grahambirch3715 Great example with Nitrox. If you walk into a dive shop and say "I want to learn how to dive, what do I do?" they will not put you in an OW course with Nitrox. You have to complete OW then get Nitrox certified. I believe that is Alec's point about all this. Long Hose isn't for a new, rec diver. Get your OW first, get in some dives, then if you want to look into Long Hose, great, get some training and try it out.
As a wreckage diver I perfer the a 8 foot long hose just because my dive buddy can be behind me out of the way as we go threw the small door ways of ships. But I also close my manifold so we both have our own tanks. BUT open water I do run a Oct just because we are in the open and don't need to worry about going threw small places
I totally agree with you Alec. Even if a under-stress diver pull your primary source out of you mouth you could pick your second stage to yourself. That’s the most commonly configuration among recreational divers. The problem rises when the cool-tech-diver shows up with a different config that not everybody ever head of. I just love your videos and I always find your opinions very pertinent and with a lot of good sense. Keep up the tech tips videos! Bests from Brazil.
Thanks for your comments and support Fabio. Remember, as many seem to not realize, that these are just my opinions. I'm not trying to change minds - just open them. Take care. Alec
Not most as this is still the PADI standard which is 70% of rec divers. Tec divers do primary donation but it's not widely used by the recreational diver. A
I did my SSI OWD, this year in August and was taught both techniques: donating my Primar, as well as my secondary, dependent on the very teacher I was diving with during that particular dive. So, to me it seems there is some confusion about what is the correct standard procedure for an out of gas situation for recreational divers and the argument, that a panicked diver out of gas would grab your primary probably anyways, might be one of the reasons.
It all depends on who you’re diving with. As long as you and your buddy agree on a procedure BEFORE it happens, it’s all good. If your dive buddy is going sidemount, they will be switching regulators throughout the dive. So, sometimes the “primary” will be long hose and sometimes it will be short hose, I tell my partner to give me the out of air sign if they can, if not, just rip the regulator from my mouth, I’ll go to my alternative air source. An overlooked advantage to sidemount diving is that you are constantly switching regulators. So, you become much more comfortable with the physical process of doing it. A backmount diver REALLY needs to practice out of air skills because this is the only time they EVER switch regulators.
Every single diver everywhere should be taught on a backplate and wing with long hose configuration from day 1! The only reason divers are taught on the traditional setup is because it's easier and cheaper for the dive center. The traditional setup has 0 benefits for the actual diver being trained
Easy and cheap are two factors but taking a new diver and saying this 'is the way' does not benefit the majority of divers. Example is taking a new driver, putting them in a Tesla Model S Plaid and saying this is all you need, its super fast, expensive and scarry for some who never drove before. The key reason all agencies teach the standard method is to let new divers gain experience and skill and progress at a comfortable pace. Then branch into the speciality they like, cave, photography etc. If you have never instructed new divers, they you have not seen the sometimes fear of this new experience so slow and easy gets them to be safe and fun divers. If b/p and long hose is you love, enjoy and share but its not for everyone otherwise it would be mention in new diver training. Thank for watching and commenting Erik.
Wings are not for everyone, every system has pro's and con. Long hose? Well that's just a stupid, dangerous way, and the only reason that fad is still here is that out of air situation are extremely rare.
@@bullsharkreef Which divers exactly cannot dive with a wing? What is stupid and dangerous about using a long hose? OOA situations are far from rare, especially to new divers that don't know how to swim and not taking safety protocols seriously.
@@mariosx12I did not say "cannot", I said "it's not for everyone". For example, diver who travel a lot, a backplate is heavy compared to a vest type BCD. Backplate also require a lot of adjustments, both for fitting and for trim, which a lot of divers don't want to bother with. And for a lot of divers, a vest type is just more comfortable, and convenient. As to long hose, the scenario you describe is EXACTLY the one where you should not use a long hose, ie around new, inexperienced divers. An inexperienced out of air diver will panic, and forcefully grab the first thing he sees that looks like something he might pull air from. If it's a regular octo, because it's yellow and placed where it is easily visible, no problem, he/she grabs it and breath from it, sometime even before you're even aware that he/she is out of air, and you are both safe. If the panicking diver cannot see an octo, because you don't have one, he'll grab your main one and pull on it, which is twisted around your neck on top of it, and now you are both in trouble. Fantastically bad idea.
@@bullsharkreef Apologies for misunderstanding your comment when it comes to the "cannot". I personally bring my steel backplate everywhere I go, but I can see how that might be suboptimal for some travelers. I don't think I can give you the point for adjustment. You don't need to spend more than an hour only once to adjust your harness for life. When it comes to what is more comfortable, I would agree with that point if they had tried once in BP/W. I have never seen a single diver prefering going back to a jacket after they have tried once a BP. And that is not a valid point of yours to the original comment, because I know more divers switching to BP/W than to jackets. Thus, indeed it would be good if all divers had the option to choose between jacket or BP/W after they spent 10 minutes in to both. Well, I cannot disagree more when it comes to safety in such case. The first thing that such a diver will see is my primary that I have extended already to one arm distance from all the other equipment, meanwhile I would have switched to my necklace already. Even in your scenario, if I, as a diver, I have no awareness of my environment and somebody pulls my primary: 1) Switching to my necklace is trivial and intuitive. You can even do it without using a hand with proper adjustments. 2) In the worst case that you drink some water, you just caugh, worst case burp, and you switch to your necklace. (It has happened 3 times to me) 3) I am not sure how familiar you are about the wiring of the wrong hose, but if somebody pulls my primary it's being deployed at one arm distance automatically, either by slightly moving my head downwards, or by forcefully ruining my trim towards negative, which I cannot see how much of a problem it can be. Shall we discuss issues with octo? Cool, let's go: 1) Short hose that do not allow divers to stay in trim, and they are forced staying very close, making buoyancy control more difficult. 2) The octo, especially for inexperienced divers, could have dirt due to drugging at the floor, or even marine life (small craps). Leading the already out of air panicked diver to panic even more. Also it might not even be secure, but taggling from a distance from the diver (you insistead on the divers being inexperienced, right?). 3) Relies on the OOA stressed diver to perform rational actions (they were taught once), in order to locate and use the regulator, instead on the more rational and aware buddy. I am currently a recreational diver with less than 60-70 dives and often, with my buddies, we perform air sharing drills for fun at 100 feet without even feeling we are less safe. I have yet to meet divers diving with octo performing or agree to performing S-drills without sitting on their knees at the bottom, exactly because they are not feeling safe. They are pretty much correct, because it's extremely challenging to keep control while you forced to be face to face due to a short hose with your buddy, and uncontrolled ascent is a risk when you have 2 people hyperventilating and not have the proper room to make adjustments. P/S: A) I don't mind people preferring jackets and octos over long hose and BP/W. I take some issue when they rationalize it in the process of completely misrepresenting a pretty solid and intuitive system. I don't take an issue as the "scuba police", it's just sad to have to resort to "you twist your long hose around your neck"-like comments. I firmly believe that if people were trained in both systems there woudln't be a debate at all. B) Have performed, or are you performing often air sharing drills during your dives with octo? You haven't noticed any of these issues?
Simplicity is better when majority of ppl diving recreational can do and understand something quickly to react.. I still don't understand why I want to put something wrap around my neck make me more uncomfortable and can squeeze my own neck if something just magically happened.
To be clear, the hose isn't really wrapped all the way around your neck. It simply passes around the back of your neck for stability. Since you're not wearing a snorkel attached to your mask with a bungee'd alternate regulator, if someone grabs the regulator that's on the long hose (and is in your mouth), the hose will naturally pass over top of your head and come free (if it hangs a little at all, a quick nod of the head and it's free. I find the long (long-er - I use a 5ft primary hose instead of the tech 7ft) hose to be more comfortable since the hose is supported as it goes across my chest and the back of my neck - a "loose" short hose tends to pull my head to the side and increases my jaw fatigue. It sounds really odd, but if you ever have a chance to safely give it a try in the pool, it's worth seeing how it really works. I much prefer it now over the more traditional setup.
Paul Wake, 🙄. Alec tries to show how visible the octo is on his chest strap. Yet diving he'd be horizontal, not vertical. Divers a little above him wouldn't see the octo. Nor, very well, those in front. So his visual point, standing facing the camera square on, is misrepresentative. Adding to the list of miss representations in this video. Had nothing to do with videos about tanks, regs, etc. I've liked many of his videos. This one, and its predecessor, are regrettable. It is also rare to see the octo placed so high and right under the chin as he has it on the chest strap. I have more commonly seen it placed on the right chest D ring or on the right hip level pocket of the BC, including in Alec's prior videos. But those spots would not have been as illustrative of the point he is trying to make.
I have seen "standard" octos clipped to the hip, under the neck, onto the shoulder harness, in the BC pocket, as well as dragging behind the diver. A necklaced backup is always in the same place. I will never be convinced that the standard configuration is safer.
Sorry, as you might expect, I don't "see" your point at all. The standard octo should be centered in the chest or at least in the chin, left/right triangle where it can be easily seen and detached. Both the 2nd stage AND the hose should be a bright color so it can be spotted from above or behind too regardless of the donor's attitude in the water. I have yet to see a long hose set-up that in any way makes it clear to either diver which reg is to be used. Nor are either regs, primary or secondary, visible. A black second, black hose on a black BCD and black suit are pretty much invisible. Swimming up to a long hose donor, the OOA diver is completely at the mercy of the donor to sort things out. With the standard set-up, the OOA diver can save himself with no help from the donor particularly without having the donor risk his own safety by giving up his air. If you are going to apply certain criteria to support your argument in favor of the long hose i.e. visibility, you must apply the same criteria when describing the standard octo. If you like, I can demonstrate both configurations again and I will stand in a dozen different ways, facing a doze different directions (anything other than standing on my head) and we will see which configuration is easy to see and easier to deploy. While divers may attach the octopus differently, the basic criteria always apply - brightly colored 2nd and hose, centered in front and easy to deploy. My personal opinion is that none of these criteria are met by the long hose set-ups I have seen. Alec
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter You're comparing to and advocating TAKE of the backup, which few agencies advocate, except BSAC. So visibility is central in YOUR scenario. Most agencies advocate DONATE, with take as only a fallback. Visibility helps the fallback if reg location varies. In PRIMARY donate the location of both regulators is know, so extra visibility adds little, but can be added. But you knew all this already. In comparing options it is important to represent the factors involved accurately, otherwise we are doing a disservice to divers trying to learn and make informed decisions for themselves. On the donor being without a reg for a few seconds: regulator remove/replace/recovery/exchange are skills to be mastered to a "reasonably comfortable, fluid, and repeatable manner" before progressing past OW pool sessions, according to Padi. Given that, it is surprising that you, with decades of experience, would say this in response to twoknife below: "Removing my primary from my mouth is risky at any time. At the moment my buddy runs out of air, sorry, it's not going to happen if I can help it!" If removing a reg is so risky, why do we expect OW divers to master it before they progress out of the pool. Or perform a simple underwater step of ensuring their backup works properly. Or encourage them to regularly do a practice air share while hanging out at a safety top. It seems the standards expect that swapping between regulators is an expected part of normal diving and not a thing to be avoided out of apprehension of a high risk. It seems as if you are overstating this risk. Or are focused on students that were not trained properly, to simply open water standards. You mention easy to deploy as a criteria. This is an area where primary donate excels. Deploying my primary is very fast, it is in my mouth. No fumbling involved in actively getting a reg to the OOA diver. Switching to my backup is very fast, it is always right under my chin. No detachment involved, I just move it up to my mouth. It should take less than 5 seconds to put it in. More likely 2 seconds after I reach for it. But I just had air, the other diver did not. Primary donate also has the advantage of making the diver a bit more tidy, thus less risk of snagging their reg hose on part of the landscape. It is called the 'streamlined openwater setup' with a 40 inch primary hose. The primary is tucked under the arm, the backup is short and held under the neck. All out of the way and tidy. Divers should evaluate how comfortable they are with the different options. With the proper facts and explanations. Not inaccurate ones and hyperbole.
Great video and very informative... I'm new at diving.I had a very good Friend and Trainer (30+ years),Who spent a lot of one on one time teaching Me.The more You know the better off You are...Thanks for Putting Your time' effort and knowledge into these...Kevin also...
I would argue the long hose is no different than someone diving an integrated octo/inflator. Primary donate no matter the environment ensures the ooa diver is receiving a working, breathable gas. As someone who learned on, dives on, and teaches on primary donate I wouldn't teach anything else except as more than a briefing.
Hello Alec. I have a question for you.... Why not use the long hose on the safe second?. This way if a diver runs out of air, he is already trained on it's deployment and there will be enough hose where he wont be right on top of you, and if he is behind you (as in a tight space like cave diving) they can reach up behind you and secure the safe second by themselves. That is what I think would make the most sense.
I've heard that the idea of primary donate (as opposed to alternate donate) is that the primary is proven to be currently working. So the diver in distress is guaranteed to get air. The calm donor diver has a fresh lungful of air in case there is a problem with the alternate. Add to that the need for the donated stage to be on a long hose in order to swim single-file through tight spaces and you get the long hose primary. Do stages fail shut halfway through dives? Not often, but I've heard of the hose rubber degrading and blocking the airflow. So tecs prepare for the worst case scenarios.
kostainseattle unfortunately doing that would create other problems. Now you have several loops of coiled hose at your side which becomes an entanglement hazard and you have introduced additional buckles that are considered failure points in many tech diving circles. In this case I agree with Alec that purely rec divers, with no intent to pursue tec diving, should stick to standard setups and tech divers who are trained and rec divers pursuing tech diving use primary donate. The hogarthian/DIR style of diving is more than just an equipment configuration, it is a philosophy that has developed based on study of accidents and incidents, you are unlikely to convince that community to adopt the modified setup being asked about.
I can understand your point about the long hose but I would like to disagree about some assumptions. Yes the 7 foot long hose is most times to long but you could use a 5 foot long hose and would have a good system for "normal" dives. Yes you're right the normal configuration is easy to use but I would say that depends on the mindset. As a diver I think we all should be able to use our equipment well enough and be able to react calm in an out of air szenario. With an long hose configuration I think there are some benefits. I can give my buddy some leash if needed and I like it to have some space between myself and my buddy if we continue the dive to the entrance. I think this is more a question about diving philosophy and I think I as an cold water diver may just like to do my dives in another style.
I totally agree with you sir. Thank you for sharing your thoughts all these while. Your videos were great for different level of divers. Please keep sharing.
Don't forget if a panic diver come take your long hose reg out of mouth and you did not see him coming..you are now choking. For me long hose is for experience tech diver that dive with other experience teck diver.
Divers generally follow their training so if trained to go for the safe second, they generally will pull it first giving you a moment to grab them and get control. Thanks for watching Robert.
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter This is the concern I have with teaching long hose/primary donate in PW courses. I know at least one agency does this. I really don't want less experienced divers to be trained that my primary regulator is their emergency option. If the diver panics, he may grab the reg from my mouth anyway, but there is not reason to TRAIN him that way. This risks turning one panicked diver into two.
I am using a long hose since day 1. I can hardly see what is complicated and not intuitive about it to require a lot of experience... As for this exreme example I have 4 points from my experience: 1) Not recording the air of their buddies, not noticing how they behave and not paying attention to what is happening in front of you makes someone a horrible buddy, so if they end up choking they are partially to blame. 2) Actually it's MUCH easier to remove the primary reg of a standard octo than the long hose (big loop from the tank to the secondary reg VS streamlined long hose secured in the harness and wrapped around the back of the neck secured by the tank). This is a problem that mostly people not diving long hose will face, and I am pretty confident that a panic diver will pull your primary reg which is esier than if they are coming from your back. Otherwise I cannot see how you cannot spot them (1). 3) Chocking and drinking water while scuba is not an issue thanks to our reflexes. It has happened to me at least 2-3 times, and I just coughed, burped and went back to breathing. 4) If you lose your reg in a long hose configuration you can switch in less than a second to the necklace, without even the need to use your hands, just by moving your head 2 inches. What's the procedure for switching to your octo in the same case? I prefer my necklace. I am a rec diver with less than 70 dives. I have been in real OOA situation 3 times in the past, 2 unexpectedly as the donor, and one as the receiver in a controlled situation. It's trivial for all people I know diving a long hose to donate air in a safe way, something we practice for fun often with my buddies. If it's so much more complicated, I cannot understand why most OW divers diving octo I have spoke with are not feeling comfortable practicing OOA drills. Well I could see myslef having also some fear, if I could not do it in a controlled way and I had to come in contact with the other diver ruining our trim and buoyancy, with little room for error due to the much shorter hose. I have simulate for fun OOA situations with some more exprerienced friends diving octo (to prove the same point after we argued) and needless to say that they killed me in all times, and I had to wait without a reg for up to 10 seconds, until I switched back to my necklace, while they were searching with their hands for their octo. I have an obvious opinion regarding which configuration an overall better system in most cases, but the ways sometimes people rationalize using an octo instead of a long hose are interesting. Preference doesn't need any justification, but rationalizing is actually counter productive for the entire community.
You won't choke. You put your head down and it will slide right over your head. It's not like it's wrapped around your neck multiple times. Besides, being proper trained should mean that I'll know if my buddy is OOA way before he or she can surprise me by pulling out my reg uncontrolled.
@@robdahlgren0506 Long-time diver & divemaster here. I get what you are saying...I dove a long hose about 10 years, and am thinking about going back. I just found it more comfortable, among other reasons (less hose "pull".) However, my secondary is still on a necklace. Either way, it's there and very accessible. PADI and others talk of keeping it in the "golden triangle", but I see a disturbing number of (mostly younger) divers kinking the octopus hose up to push it through a D-ring. Necklace keeps it handy, without kinking the hose, whether or not you follow it with a long-hose setup. YMMV...
Historically, when something new appears, be it a product or a process, proponents tend to be a bit out spoken and sometimes a bit sensitive too. I've seen it a dozen times in scuba alone. Bailout bottles (now called pony bottles) were all the rage during the 60's and 70's. Proponents claimed that any diver who didn't use a bailout bottle was suicidal. A BCD-mounted Safe Second is still with us despite it's obvious shortcomings but don't dare try to take it away from a diver who insists on using it. Current arguments still rage over the use of the "better" DIN valve or High-capacity steel tanks. Many of these have become more acceptable over time but generally they are outliers, reserved for divers who either like to be different or who have accepted the doctrine that accompanies them. Like Capt Swoop, I've discovered the best (only?) approach is to smile and excuse yourself asap. I almost guarantee that this comment itself will generate friction. Let's watch and see. Alec
Absolutely agree with your points, thank you for the video! One addition: many of my buddys lately started using long hose setups, and pretty much exclusively combine it with a very short secondary hose. Since we're usually cold water diving with two separate first stages, here's a scenario to think about: Diver 1 runs out of air, diver 2 donates his primary. Due to the stressful situation and heavy breathing in cold water, and since the regulator on the long hose had already been in use up to the emergency, there's an increase probability of freezing. Should that happen, according to standard training, the two divers would now share the single remaining "good" regulator. But due to the extremely short secondary hose that everyone seems to be using nowadays, this is simply no longer possible. Too short for sharing...
Freezing can occur when the gas expands, it does not expand inside the hose, it expands in the regulators, that's why they have environmental sealing, radiator fins and other cold water specifics, and that's why you don't dive in cold water with warm water regulators. In fact, if your concern is that your buddy's sudden gulps of air might cause a freeze, then your first stage is twice as likely to freeze when your buddy start hoovering from your backup while you're breathing from your primary. With a long hose configuration, they'll start breathing first, then you'll take your normal breath of air from your backup.
@@UNgineering Why? There are 2 separate first stages. One attached to the primary, one to the backup. The primary has been in use, it is therefore colder and closer to freezing. Now my buddy comes and uses it, and is breathing heavily due to the stressful situation. That's why the 1st stage on my primary is now much more likely to freeze than the backup one.
@@lazydave137 because now your 1st stage has to suddenly expand (reduce the pressure for) twice (or more) the amount of gas as before, that's why it's more likely to freeze than the 2nd stage. plus even if the 2nd stage freezes, it'll freeze in open (that's when the gas expands a lot), causing free flow, which would be annoying but very breathable.
Personally I've seen enough videos of panicked divers ripping the primary out of their buddies mouth to see that the long hose has its benefits from a safety standpoint. I totally agree that you need to train with a long hose or any specific equipment. Thanks for your insightful videos as always and I look forward for more great content.
By the way, it took me about 5 minutes of practice when I first switched to long hose (as a recreational diver at the time) to get as "very well trained" as you saw in that video. Removing a reg and passing it off is pretty much the same as in traditional regs (the hose comes right over your head automatically pretty much) and getting your "safe second" is much more intuitive because you don't even have to think about it, it's practically at your mouth already. I would wager that most rec divers would get on their safe second faster if they switched to this "technical" configuration (which isn't technical at all, it doesn't teach you any technical skills, it's still just breathing from a reg and donating a reg).
Additionally, using a long-hose doesn't make you a tech diver anymore than buying a set of regs off Ebay makes you a recreational diver. Anymore than putting on a BP/W makes you a technical diver. It's a gear choice, and quite frankly it's one that makes more sense for most divers that dive as it is inherently safer with your alternate air source at a very accessible location that isn't falling out of the holders that are still poorly designed (you did a video on those iirc), resulting in it routinely falling below a diver, getting dragged in stuff, and otherwise mishandled making a failure or improper operation much more likely, not to mention locating it more difficult as it may or may not even be where you put it. The bungee'd secondary is ALWAYS going to be right there at your neck, close to your body, not smacking reefs, and not ending up behind or below the diver that rarely considers seeing if they remember how to do an air share.
As for you not believing that it is the case that an out of air diver will grab the reg in your mouth, it does happen (you can search DAN for references) and donating the primary is actually how many divers are being taught these days (not PADI yet as they are slow to adopt new best practices, though even the PADI OW course allows for it to be taught these days even if it isn't their standard, but SSI and others have switched due to their research on what are best practices). So, perhaps you aren't aware of that new "modern, standardized training" yet, but it's there.
Next, their are not "two rolls" around the next. The long hose in a typical setup starts behind the diver, goes under the right arm (just like a normal secondary reg that you'd donate) and then goes around the back of the head/next and to the mouth. It never wraps twice, and it never wraps "around the neck" as that would be a hazard if it was snagged, so it would be foolish to do so.
Let's answer your questions:
1. You give your known, working, air source to him because you haven't been out of air. If your "safe second" has also failed, you are in a better position to deal with it for a moment before beginning buddy breathing than if you gave it to him, and he got to take another breath of "I can't breath" and then must either yank your reg out of your mouth (potentially damaging the mouthpiece etc which could result in wet-breathing further causing problems) or try and explain that to you while out of air even longer.
2. Investing the time - the average rec diver isn't going to invest the time to see where your safe second is or to practice donating/receiving air, so the method of doing so is immaterial. The "training" needed to use a long-hose is free, any technical diver, the internet, multiple youtube videos from knowledgeable people, etc is more than enough. The equipment cost is about $5 different to buy a long hose over a short hose, so I'd call that inexpensive. And practice can be done for absolutely free anytime you go diving (and should be, but we know most rec divers won't bother practicing donating air regardless of what configuration they're diving in so that's again a moot point).
3. When rec divers stop doing swim-throughs in Cozumel, stop doing "swim-throughs" penetrating wrecks, etc, then I'll agree with you that the long-hose can't benefit them. However, since I've done all of those things and been in those places with other rec divers who couldn't have swam out while sharing air because the passages were too narrow, I'll disagree that the benefits of the long hose configuration "don't apply" to them.
4. At 10:34 you decided which "standard deployment of a safe second" you wanted to share. You could have accidentally grabbed this one by SSI instead, and shown the "standard deployment" demonstrating donating your primary (which can be done whether on a long or short hose setup and is becoming the industry standard because it is becoming recognized as the best practice for safe diving. th-cam.com/video/QnY9yZJmgVM/w-d-xo.html
In summary, while I believe you believe what you are saying is correct, much of it appears to be from lack of knowledge. While many of your videos demonstrate a wealth of knowledge on diving related subjects, this and its predecessor are a stark contrast to that and are
demonstrating exactly the opposite I'm sorry to say.
This^ saved me a lot of writing.
This ^ saved me a lot of writing.
It took me a few of drills to get it right, and a few more to get the muscle memory due to the predominance of umbilicals getting in the way etc but yes not rocket science. But there are people out there who have no training in this concept and cannot work it out for themselves. Want to dive a long hose, get extended range or similar, that way you get an experienced eye on your routing and discuss the pros and cons. I have no instructor quals just experience
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having a long hose config also forces you to ensure that your secondary is in a good working order before every dive, because you'd be the one using it.
Unfortunately, you used a term that confuses many divers. At 6:37 you said the long hose was wrapped around his neck. At 8:37 you even said there are two rolls around the neck. It is actually wrapped once behind his neck. Many divers believe that the hose is, therefore, crossing the front of his neck, creating a choking hazard. This couldn't be further from the truth.
Also, the long hose isn't just for technical diving. My fiancee has never considered technical diving yet loves her long hose. She has shared air on a couple of occasions and found it to be much less stressful when you don't have to have the OOA diver in your face. It was very easy to continue the swim to the exit side by side rather than having to hold onto each other's BC.
Good catch on the second roll around the neck. Alec should get some training before talking about anything tech related.
Haters gonna hate. You're a wise and honorable man Mr. Peirce.
There is a difference between a hater and a questioner.
If someone questions a thought or practice and draws hate, he is probably on the right track.
Those who hate questions usually just don't have an answer. It's easier to hate than to think of a fair response.
Thanks. Alec
Alec Peirce Scuba, that's a fair statement Alec, questioning a topic is always a good thing and so is debate but even with all your disclaimers and your clear explanations people still feel they need to oppose you. Perhaps they're watching with blinders and sound filters on or perhaps they're simply too obtuse to understand YOUR position. As the kids say nowadays...U DA MAN!!!
nobody is hating. he just doesn't know what he is talking about. and that is not an insult, it is a statement he makes about himself: he has no technical training. why he feels compelled to disparage something he does not understand does not reflect well upon him.
it is however better than the time he told a guy to take his wife diving with new dive computers that neither one of them knew how to use. AP is an instructor and he most certainly should have understood that to be wrong. is that an example of professional negligence ?
'taking a hose 1,2,3,4 loops around [my neck]'. Come on buddy, I love your video's, but this is hyperbole making what can be a very safe system seem unsafe!
This is going to be the most disliked video on your channel i guess :)
Pandora's box hath been opened lol. I am a long hose guy myself but to each his own. My only pet peeve is a guy with an air 2 type inflator/back-up regulator and a 26" primary hose. You have to make out with each other to share air. It would be difficult to communicate, deflate and try to make a safe ascent with that setup.
Its always a nice topic to discuss but I think he is a little bit off if he said long hose is nothing for rec diving. You can use a 5 foot hose and I would say you allways need proper training. That long hose is little bit more tricky than the "normal" setup, granted. But does the benefits may surpass these disadvantages? This might be the real question ;).
And I also thing that 95% of the objections comes from cold water divers. So this is more about different diving types ...
Firstly, I want to say that although I disagree with the comments about the longhose SPECIFICALLY, I completely agree when he says that it is a personal choice, and that people SHOULD be thinking about their needs, their equipment for a given dive, and how they plan to respond in an emergency - thinking divers are safe divers, so this conversation is important, whichever side of the argument you fall on!
I also want to apologise to everyone for the length of this comment, but it's a subject about which I am passionate.
Whilst it is true that most recreational divers are taught in the "standard" setup shown here, and it is suitable for the majority of divers and their ambitions - see pretty fish on a reef while on holiday, for example - I would argue that it isn't OPTIMAL, for the following reasons:
1. in the Standard setup, you're supposed to put the octopus in an imaginary triangle formed by your neck and hips - it can be anywhere in there. That could mean it could be clipped to a D-ring, poking out of a BC pocket etc etc. Just as likely is that it will be trailing behind you - I see that one often enough!
2. The standard procedure for an Out Of Air (OOA) scenario is for the OOA diver to make the throat-slash signal, whereupon the donating diver moves their arms up and out of the way to give the OOA diver access to their octopus (what we call "stand and deliver!" like the Highwaymen of old). Then the OOA diver takes the octopus, breathes from it and a joint ascent is made. And the OOA diver knows where the octopus is because they tested it at the surface during BWRAF, right?
Except... what if the diver isn't your buddy, but some poor sucker who has been left behind by a different group? What if your octopus isn't where he was expecting it to be based on HIS training (which can be very variable in quality)? what if it isn't where YOU put it, but now it's trailing behind you? What if you're in horizontal trim and the OOA diver can't see the octopus at all because he's slightly above you and rising due to an over-gassed BCD?
Bearing in mind that an OOA diver is experiencing an EMERGENCY; probably the final stage of a cascading series of unfortunate events and that they are likely seconds away from a full-blown panic - if they aren't already in one - what do you think will be the result of a delayed octopus donation? The answer is that they are gonna mug you for your gas - probably by snatching the regulator straight from your mouth as we hear about so often. They might even dislodge your mask too by accident when they take your reg. Not ideal.
3. Even if you manage to get an octopus into their mouth, they are still initially in panic; panicked divers breathe hard due to stress and CO2 build-up, but they also tend to swim HARD with their hands. The standard octopus hose length is about 1 metre or 3 feet, so now you are attached in close quarters to this panicked diver as they thrash for the surface, so again you face the possibility of having your own regulator knocked out, your mask torn off etc.
Would it not be better to keep an individual like this at arms length? preferably by donating a regulator to them that they just saw was working? Would it not be better to then HOLD them at arms length by maintaining control of the hose that you donated with, until they can clear that CO2, calm themselves and begin an air-sharing ascent with you?
The truth is, that if you don't TAKE CHARGE in an OOA emergency, you WILL end up being dictated to by a diver who is panicking. I have seen panicked divers attempt to climb other divers to get out of the water, like a monkey climbing a tree - is this who you want dictating to you in an emergency?!
4. The issue about costs raised in this video are a non-starter. Here in the UK I can buy a standard 2.5 foot regulator hose for £27. A 7 foot longhose costs £40 (both Miflex). The bungee for your backup (which can be your old octopus) costs two feet of shock cord and a cable tie. And that will last for ages.
5. You don't need to always dive in full technical gear - backplate and wing etc - if you don't want to; you can use a longhose and backup on a recreational BCD if you want with no ill effect. The backbone of the philosophy is to keep things simple, to take only what you need and to have good diving fundamental skills. Nobody is saying that you have to dive in a drysuit with a wing/twinset on every dive!
6. There is no second wrap of the hose around your neck; the hose comes out of the first stage, down the right-hand side of your BC and is tucked into your waist strap (or hooked over the battery canister of your light, or whatever), then it heads up and across your chest to your left side, around the back of your neck and into your mouth. The configuration is clean, nothing sticks out above you, nothing can get caught up and cause damage. And if you need to, you can donate that longhose to anyone, no matter who they are and take control of the emergency.
7. The divers shown in the little clip were actually not highly experienced tech divers, but were in fact students of Steve Martin on the first day of a Sidemount Essentials course, after which they both also took a foundational tech diving course (TDI AN/DP). To the best of my knowledge this was their first time using a longhose, and they seemed to adapt just fine; that they look proficient with their longhoses already is testament both to the ease of use of the longhose system, and the skill of Steve as an instructor.
Another advantage to the longhose is that if it is taught at the foundational, Open Water levels, and the diver subsequently decides that they like diving and they want to do more - staying longer, diving deeper, diving in wrecks, caves etc - they already know the gas sharing procedure as taught in technical courses. From a 10 metre reef dive, to an exploratory cave dive, the procedure is the same and as we all know; repetition breeds proficiency; proficiency breeds confidence; and confidence breeds fun!
And that's all I want to say about that.
Appreciate the detailed explanation provided Thomas. Lets share this with everyone for their feedback on this subject (I expect a lot of comments).
I have been diving since 82 and have had a panicked out of air diver attack me and he grabbed my primary and ripped or dislodged my mask as he went for my air one. This was a fun dive and I had not dived with this person, we did a check and all seemed good. Later we found out that he was using a friends set up and long story short, did not had the reg. checked in forever. It was in 60 feet of water where his primary chocked and he panicked, I use a standard save second hose and grabbed my second and then grabbed him to make eye contact and get he in the right posture to go up slowly. I was taught buddy breathing which was difficult to get right but I and maybe that’s way eye contact and controlling the out of air diving is a given for me, zIf I hadn’t been close to him I feel he would have bolted up and for some reason I feel the long hose may of been a deterrent and given him to much freedom. I have used a long hose in Cave diving as the confined space dose make a long hose more since. I loved your response to the video by the way
Thing i noticed was when you showed you offering your octo that’s the way you’re shown on your first open water course.
If you move onto a padi rescue diver course you’re taught to hand the octo to your buddy it’s a better way as it keeps them at arms length if they are panicked.
The other issue with the standard recreational dive set up is that the hoses are never in ideal rotation for your buddy and shortness in hose length doesn’t give them much room for movement.
I’ve moved my recreational set up over to long hose because of this reason also it offers you the chance to stream line your hoses a lot more than having loops here there and everywhere.
It also makes you think about every part of your gear as you know that reg on your chest is YOUR lifeline now so you keep an eye on it.
I’ve seen a number of divers who just let the octo float about and drag in the sand as they see it that it’s not there for an emergency for them self.
Good eye Dave. Thats a habit from years of teaching new divers. Thanks for watching.
Way too defensive, but otherwise a great followup to the retracted video.
Taking the regulator from your mouth, however, should never be a thing a trained (basic ow) diver fears or avoids for any reason.
It is vital to be able to do so without any risk or imagined risk involved.
I take it you have never seen a really life Panic Diver out of Air?
For you all techie divers, i understand you ideas and points but you have to realize that it's very hard to tell a man whose BCD was a boulder and who dived with no SMPG for decades that you need a 7 foot long hose if you're not cave diving or going into tight quarters which are the instances where i believe it will be very necessary as you can't be side by side as there might not be enough space.
Also he is very right in telling that it is unnecessary for recreational divers to steer them in that direction as i have seen done and i see them every time i go dive, divers who have all this gear and equipment just to dive 20 feet deeper i mean i can see them and also there's no more life down there than where i am so i can see the man's point.
Nobody said you need a seven foot hose for recreational diving. It does make sharing air a lot easier than the standard setup. I think the main point of the negative comments were the continued misconceptions of its use, especially repeating the false information about it being wrapped around a diver's neck.
Your both correct. In the future everyone will dive with the long hose. Its simpler and safer but Padi is not ready to teach that taking the reg from the guys mouth is ok
@@stephens2r338 Actually PADI does allow it, and they did discuss primary versus alternate donation in a training bulletin a few years ago. They won't mandate it, which isn't unreasonable (I'm no fan of PADI for their low standards and ethics, but I have to be fair). I'd rather they mandate courses being taught neutrally buoyant and trim.
The thing is, the ordinary set up is simple, it works, its all well and good the dude donating the primary but if the lad receiving or waiting for it doesnt know about it, u could have a pickle if someone panics, atleast a bright yellow free to grab octo everyone knows that. It doesnt have to be pretty it just has to get air from a to b as quick as possible at the end of the day.
Good pont Anyname.
I understand panic makes people do funny things but I hope you are informing your dive buddy/ies that you are diving a primary donate system before the dive so everyone is on the same page
I'm a little concerned with the "It doesn't have to be pretty" part of the comment.
A lot of divers who buy their own regulators buy the octo as an afterthought. It's supposed to be there, so what's the cheapest one I can get?
That mindset also often leads to divers not checking their octo for proper operation, or not caring for it like they do their primary.
IMHO the octo should perform as well as your primary regulator. I'm fine with it not having luxury options like breathing adjustments or a Venturi lever or smaller exhausts, but it should provide plenty of air in any situation. It should be regularly checked. At least during every predive check, but preferably also underwater. It should be properly stowed, and not drag behind you, or through the silt or the coral reef. It shouldn't hit the boat deck when you take off your BCD, and it should be regularly serviced (though that's usually not a problem as that's up to the divecenter). Remember that it's emergency equipment. In an emergency it needs to perform. That's not when you want to find out it's not working.
I’m a divemaster (considered the entry-level of professional divers, yes?) and have used the long hose primary/necklaced alternate configuration for over 20 years. The training I received way back when as a lifeguard reinforced the concept that in-water perceived emergencies of any variety can induce anxiety and/or panic for the person who perceives the emergency. if a diver forgot to check their air state, I have little confidence in that diver’s ability to remember other aspects of their training, including where on my person to locate my alternate air source. An anxious diver will reach for the regulator they see being used (i.e. the one I’m breathing from). a long hose allows me to maintain a safer distance while the diver squares themselves away mentally, able to breathe.
I agree completely that the long hose requires familiarity, a bit of training and practice. I’ve grown comfortable over time with a hose routing path that allows for a diver to grab my primary, spinning me clockwise once while the hose plays out for them.
I recently watched a low/out-of-air incident while diving for fun in the Caribbean. The anxious diver went for the dive guide’s primary. I’ll maintain the anxious diver can’t be counted on to maintain a calm presence of mind.
It is a skill that needs lots of practice to keep you mind sharp in an emergency. Also when you see your buddy's out of air, grabbing and presenting (ie put in front of you), your safe second, they will grab what is closest. Otherwise they go for what their mind wants, a primary. In all my many, many, too many years of diving, only seen maybe 3-4 OOA situations, none went crazy. Thanks for sharing a logical and personal background.
A
I'm a cave and decompression diver; everything is a tool for a job. I am of course bringing a long hose in an overhung environment because that's what my training and common sense tells me to do; I don't think my team will allow it otherwise. If it's a recreational dive, it doesn't really matter. I'll happily sling a single tank with a 40" hose and dive. Obviously, technical divers require more gear and training with a specific configuration but that's only because we need it. Recreational divers don't need a long hose since it's not necessary in my opinion. They simply don't have the skill to manage a long hose (which is not even difficult) since their buoyancy, trim, propulsion are terrible anyways.
An out of air diver is already stressed. Donating the long hose ensures the out of air diver receives a functioning regulator. The standard octopus typically is a lower quality/harder breathing regulator rarely serviced. Do you really want to give a harder breathing regulator to an already stressed diver? The standard octopus placement also may allow the regulator to drag the bottom, etc. with debris entering the casing preventing a breath. Besides, an out of air and panicking diver will grab the regulator out of your mouth in a truly out of air situation.
The long hose is scalable from open water to technical dives. A 5 foot hose is used for open water dives and a 7 foot hoses are used for overhead environments. Learning the long hose technique can be used form open water to the most technical of dives.
BTW, the long hose is NOT wrapped around your neck. If passed in front of your throat, strangulation is possible. The long hose is runs under the right arm, crossing the chest, and goes behind the neck. Donating the long hose only involves lifting the hose over your head and can be replaced with ease (as opposed to a stuffed hose). The secondary regulator used is typically the same or near quality of the primary. The secondary places under the chest is also tested prior to entering the water. How often are standard octopuses check? I have never seen a diver test the standard octopus prior the dive.
When diving open water, my open water regulator set has a yellow purge cover And a yellow long hose on the primary for easy recognition.
Any diver who does not use a compatible AA source, keep it maintained at the same time as his 2nd stage and check that both regs work properly is very foolish.
Foolish even with a longhose.
I have had dives with tec divers who found a dead miniature fish in their neck bungee reg weeks after that dive.
Had they tried to breathe from that reg when the fish had slipped inside they certainly would have fumbeled the ooa drill and taken their loghose back in panic.
Personally speaking, I never dive without doing a buddy check first which includes checking that the 2nd stage and the AA source are both working properly. In fact, I teach my divers to do the following, one buddy breathes off his 2nd stage and his buddy doing the buddy check breathes off his buddies octopus to ensure that both regs will breathe easily when two people are sharing air. I would not dive with people who refused to do this.
Exactly right. You know 100% that the reg you are donating to a diver in trouble supplies good air versus the one that has spent a dive or more unchecked. As you still have your hand on the primary you can buddy breathe off that if there is an issue with the secondary but at least the diver in trouble was guaranteed to get good air.
@@andygray Ever heard of a burst disc, hose connectors, o-rings. I have seen each of these and many others fail in the middle of dives on divers. There is no fault to the divers, things happen.
I disagree. The long hose setup is safer and easier and should become the industry standard, but I respect your opinion even if we differ.
Well said.
A
definitely agreed. long hose along with NOT kneeling should be standard practice.
I thought id like the long hose but as a recreational diver im finding I don't like the longer floating hose. I do however like the necklace on my octo. What are your thoughts on necklaces on your primary standard length and a regular holder for your octo. I just like the idea of my primary always being there
@@bradbentler9754 a floating hose can be fixed with better routing. usually it is routed from the 1st stage under your right arm, tucked in your belt (either weight belt or a belt from the wing), then back up towards your left shoulder from the front, around your neck towards your back and back to the front next to your right shoulder.
you can also have it hooked on a hose retainer, light canister or a weight pocket on your right hip instead of tucking it into the belt, whichever is more convenient.
Way to get them all riled up, Alec. ;)
Fun huh?
Thanks. Alec
I train all my rec students with a long hose. We also don't teach from our knees on the bottom of a pool.
BRAVO BROTHER.
Alec, theory is that you share the reg you are breathing because you know for a fact it is operational. People in caves get stuff lodged in their regs. It could have been damaged during the dive. Etc. that’s the thought process of sharing what you breath. The DIR style of diving was made with lessons learned from deaths diving. I think that carries over to rec dies ... not because of caves but because a lot of rec divers have no clue how to control buoyancy and I regularly see them dragging their gear across the ocean floor and reefs. It’s awful.
The only negative thing about long hose diving is that it needs to be in a team. In one way it’s great. You are diving in a highly trained and educated team that knows the agencies standard operating procedures. Everyone is on the same page 100%. No questions needed. Everyone is up to date. I believe it’s the safest way to dive.
The problem lies when you want to go on vacation some place and you don’t have team divers with you. Unfortunately, this is what I do most ... I’m just thrown on a boat with rec divers with normal setups and varying skill levels.
I’ve been on a dive boat and had people 100% perplexed with my setup. Like no clue how I would share air. That is a problem. Especially if i just happen to run into someone OOA on a busy reef some place. I know I’ll just have them snag my reg out of my mouth and I’m cool with that. I think as time goes on long hose will get more traction. And I think that’s great. The more awareness the better.
John, see my previous comments on this and read others comments/experiences. Regardless of others inout, it will still be your call how to setup for your diving profile.
Alec
Dear Alec- It pains me to write this. My 7 foot hose lays close to my body. On each dive, my buddy and I go through the motions of sharing air while in horizontal trim and neutrally buoyant. We have done this since we were first OW certified. Our safe second is the one right next to our chin on a necklace. It is always there ready to go. We were taught to recover a lost reg from our first certification dives. Having a reg out of your mouth for a moderate period of time is of no consequence and if doing so creates a danger to you or your buddy then additional training is definitely in order. Diving without a reg in your mouth is required for your first certification. You are making a sensational claim of some inherent danger in a basic skill that is employed by every diver ever certified. If you use this argument to make your case against the use of a long hose in open water then you lose credibility that you have built over decades. Claiming that the hose wraps multiple times around your neck is also a sensational claim. Your video is viewed as an attack on divers that choose to use primary donate with a long hose in open water. Dive and let dive?
Hi Alec, I got your point, but to be honest... you miss many points. I don't know, where are you diving, but I'm from Czech Republic and we don't have 20m visibility and warm water in the quarries, or lakes. Recreational configuration as I was taught during my course many years ago simply doesn't fully work. It works only in seas around Equator and that's it... REC divers from Norway and Iceland don't dive in wet suit as well. I don't say that everybody must be a TEC diver, but REC configuration with long hose and WING (not classic BCD) is simply handy everywhere. Last point if people can learn how to control inflator, how to donate, etc... they cannot have any problem with donation with long hose.
I think you are trying too be reasonable with unreasonable people that are just going to nit pick at what you are saying, the vast majority of people with a ounce of common sense can see the point you are trying to make and it is logical and reasonable, there is a perfect time and place for every single set up, but as you rightly said for many divers it is not ideal or needed.
So what happened to the first long hose video, that was my favorite? Then we could see the ''controversy' again.
Here is a link which describes the two systems a bit more completely.
th-cam.com/video/yFhJI0EC1QI/w-d-xo.html
The important thing to note about the long hose is that it starts a diver off correctly to become a more competent diver. The courses that teach long hose emphasize horizontal diving, buoyancy control, a relaxed attitude, energy conservation, and staying off the bottom. This sort of discipline is not often seen in typical open water divers behavior.
And the position of the octopus shown here on Alec hardly represents the real world position I see when diving these days. Typically, the octopus is loosely hanging off someones butt, dragging in the bottom, collecting mud, or at some random connection point. And a lot of octopus I see are not a bright color or even have a yellow hose. Or its tucked in to a D ring with the loop being the most obvious part of the octopus sticking out instead of the reg. So when the panicked diver grabs the octopus, they grab the loop, not getting the octopus, so they pull harder, ripping open the BC. Or they grab the other diver's regulator, leaving the person with the air searching for their octopus (most likely hanging somewhere near their butt). So the problem is that there is no standard setup in REAL practice. In other words, a lack of discipline. The long hose represents a universal standard, both regs are always in a specified place in real use.
To Alec's credit he indicated in another video that the Scubapro second air was a bad idea. I agree, every time I see someone with one of those I ask them, what the plan is for their buddy being out of air. It becomes clear they have given this no thought, they typically do not realize they will have to give up their primary reg to the buddy, and take the second air themselves, or lose control of their buoyancy. Whatever is left to pure chance and random factors on a dive becomes a liability and a risk. I would not accept a second air user as a buddy, if they do not actually know how the setup is supposed to be used; their attitude is just too cavalier for safety.
The random octopus situation is analogous to people saying they don't need a seat belt in their car. True, the seat belt serves no purpose until you crash, but you better have it on if you plan to survive. Discipline. And this commentary comes from someone who has been diving with the standard octopus setup for 40 years (its fine when its set up correctly, as Alec shows in this video).
The truth is your best bet is to dive with a regular buddy, who is disciplined, and to practice out of air with them, until you can do it right. That way, no matter what setup you or they have, you both will know what to do when the real emergency comes. Safe diving.
I am not a tec diver. I do not subscribe to the total list of DIR theology. However, I prefer the comfort, fit, and trim offered by a back plate and wing. Luckily, over the last several years Ive only been involved in a few out of air scenarios. I had a buddy that could make the sides of an aluminum 80 touch in about 20 minutes. He got low on air and before I could get his attention, he bolted for the entry point. When I finally got close enough to him to grab a fin, he was off to the surface. The second was on a boat dive in 130 feet of water when a dude hit 500lbs while still inside the wreck. He ignored his instructors reg... a long hose by the way.... and bolted for the surface. He popped straight up the anchor line hand over fist. Somehow, he never took a DCS hit.... Most recently, during a shake down dive in a shallow pool with my daughter, she asked for air, I presumed it was a drill and just gave her my primary and I snatched her octo. She was OOA so we stood up. lol. it was a good lesson for both of us. I have done a LOT of air share drills over the last 14 years during class dives and during pre-season shake downs. And in every scenario, the biggest aggravation and struggle is the length of the standard safe second or octopus hose. There is never enough hose there to comfortably share. You have to route the reg up and over your shoulder to your left side if you dont want them in your face while trying to swim or maneuver to an exit point. They end up banging into your legs and messing up your kick. Ascending is a pain as they keep crashing into you. The standard hose lengths are just ludicrous for true emergency scenarios. I feel like the 5 to 7 foot hose option is ideal. A 5 foot hose on a typical mounted octo does offer some flexibility and is much preferred to the standard length hose, but its just not quite long enough to free up the second diver and its just long enough to start being a pain in the butt to manage. It definitely increases the snag factor and most octo pockets arent designed for the extra hose. The 7 foot hose routed straight down between the plate and wing to the right hip, back up to the left shoulder with one wrap.........not sure where you got two wraps......... around the head to the mouth is an ideal air share length. 7 feet of hose lets the other diver get out of your way, face you without being in your face, and swim next to you without crowding you. You can tuck the excess hose in your waist strap, behind a dive light or other equipment attached to your plate and it stays out of the way much easier than a 5 footer. While I agree that new divers have many other skills to focus on when first starting out, I do not think that adding a long hose in the mix creates an atmosphere of danger or confusion. It all comes down to the instruction they receive and the homework they do about their gear choices.
You've been diving longer than Ive been alive, so I cannot even begin to guess at the scenarios you have seen play out under the water. Ive only ever seen two panicked divers. One was my buddy who (thankfully) did not try and steal my primary reg, but he did forget all of our training (we attended the same classes and had just completed our BOW, AOW, Night, Nav, and S&R courses. We had many, many hours in the pool and in open water together doing air drills with each other) and bolted to the surface. A panicked diver could do anything and there is no way to predict what that is. I can search the Googe and find accounts of divers stealing a donors primary. I cant prove, or disprove, any of them. But it was apparently a big enough issue that some of the most serious, fundamentalist, hard core divers on the planet came up with the long hose setup a long long time ago. Granted, it was as much (maybe more) about divers passing through small openings one at a time as it was about dealing with panicked divers, but its a trained technique and it appears to work well for them to this day. If someone rips your reg out of your mouth, just tuck your chin to your chest (your backup is right there.....) and back away if possible. The excess hose simply slides over your head giving you distance from the diver. Apply that same scenario to a standard hose configuration and you have a diver, probably flailing and clutching you, right up in your face. Your backup reg is now amongst a potential melee of moving arms and gear and your being pulled and jerked by their efforts to manipulate a short hose.
I just dont see a problem with the long hose in a recreation scenario. I think it offers some extra features that make any potential cons worth the extra training and prep. We can what if, and banter perfect storm scenarios back and forth for years and never come to a consensus. I think we can both agree that it may not be ideal for brand new divers or for divers struggling to master some of the more basic diving skills. I think that if an instructor can identify a dive student that displays the right amount of competency, and they take to the time to properly train and educate that diver, that there is absolutely nothing wrong with a long hose rig on a beach dive from the cottage. Or a single tank, non penetration, shallow wreck dive. Its probably a bit much for cleaning the pool screens or scraping a boat hull, but at the end of the day, its that divers call.
Ha that's funny Daniel, suck in an 80 wow. Thanks for sharing this and look for my backplate video S09E21 Backplates - are they for you. Have more coming so thanks for watching.
Longhose config is not for techdivers only.
OK.
Who is it for?
The answer lies in deciding for what purpose it was designed and developed.
Alec
Alec Peirce Scuba Its my personal opinion that longhose config is much more safer than a yellow octopus in all kinds of diving- even on a 30 feet open water dive in crystal blue water on a sunny day. Doesnt need to be an out of air situation either; of you for ex. get your primary reg kicked out from your mouth it might be a quicker option to first switch to your necklace and then go back to your primary. Topics like this are good since it opens up for interresting diskussions. Again, thanks for a good video sir!
Totally agree long hose for expierenced divers if they like it and standard hoses for noobs and causal divers or all others who like that configuration ;)
Good points, thanks for sharing.
A
I agree and disagree. First, when I'm in a mixed group on holiday I take a standard singles rig and the alternate is the big yellow thing that everyone expects and is trained to use, for all the reasons you say. But when, still as a recreational diver, I'm diving my doubles, I'll use the long hose. Again, it's what the group expects and is trained to use. And although its origin was in cave and wreck diving, it's still nice to have a bit more space within which my buddy and I can manoeuvre, even in an open environment. As to why you donate the long hose out of your mouth, if you kept it as an alternate it would have to be clipped off to stop it getting wayward and that would make it more difficult to donate. As it is I've practiced reg swaps and donations hundreds of times and not once have I had a mouthful of water; I don't know anyone who has. So it is safe and quick. I was actually slightly disappointed that the guy in your video had to glance down to locate his necklace reg as he should be able to do it blindfold. Also, as the guy in the clip showed, you only put the long hose once round the neck so it does indeed come off with that one single motion; any loose hose gets tucked into the harness so it's easy to pull out. So the long hose does have a general use: it gives you more space. But I agree that it should only be used when both parties who may need it are properly trained.
With all due respect, when you gave the disclaimer that you are not educated in the use of the long hose system that should have been the end of your video. Why would you again try to instruct and use your reputation to speak on something that you clearly do not understand. I make it a point as a respected instructor (my students will believe what I say) to only instruct on things that I am thoroughly knowledgeable, competent, and experienced on.
Alex again with all due respect you need to be trained to use any scuba diving equipment. the long hose will become the standard in the future for the beginner diver as diving progresses.And as you know diving does progress, maybe you should bring to the attention of the diving training orginsations about beginner divers being shown how to be correctly Weighted /Bouyancy and a system of breathing to help with this. instead of picking on one element of diving, as for the double loop around the neck please Alex maybe get Kevin to research the the subject and have a chat with him before you make confusing videos
The point to the video is to illustrate the appropriate use of the long hose versus the standard Safe Second. One does not have to be an 'expert' to do so. The correct application of the long hose, that is, the circumstances for which it is appropriate to use, is well documented by both its proponents, its developers and its trainers. Also, the deployment of the long hose is well-documented in both text and videos.
One does not have to be a gun nut to understand the proper application of a shotgun versus a rifle.
Alec
Alec, you're right on the money! Many of these comments made me laugh. I especially laughed at all the "you don't understand" comments. 89% of you long hose guys just need to be different! I think you guys may be "compensating"
I'm sharing my many, many, many years of experience with others to make them laugh or think. It's the sharing if ideas/information that's important, not who is right or wrong.
Alec.
Alec is wrong wrong wrong.
@@shuntao3475 If i am diving with Alec and Shun on a recreational dive and I run out of air, guess who I am swimming to. Alec, hands down.
@@bassh8me1 Please say that to any competent diver and see who still dives with you. If you are out of air, you go to the closest diver, period. No questions, and then you end the dive for you both. I would never allow a diver, that makes a statement like that on my boat.
@@shuntao3475 Dude. I am a tech wreck diver myself, and ofc long hose is a must for the dives me and my buddies are performing. I also have a strong opinion favoring long hose vs standard, due to control, maneuverability and many other reasons for divers that want to become more competent, but your unproductive and narrow-minded way of discussing is a disgrace to the community, especially to somebody with a 50 year carreer on the field.
There are different philosophies and different techniques for different things when it comes to scuba, and for amateurs and recreational divers a long hose could be a big struggle. I generally try to push to most of my buddies to switch to long hose, but we should aknowledge that MANY people are not cold blooded, the find scuba exciting but they don't feel comfortable, and adding a 7-8 feet long extra hose could distract them more and not letting them actually enjoy the experience. Many people feel uncomfortable just by being underwater, just by putting a bit more effort for breathing, just by checking the oxygen depleting minute by minute, just by trying to stay neutral. All these people should be able to enjoy scuba, if they are safe enough, even if they will not be chosen for the next Mars' mission.
Like some others I literally had to spent 1 minute practicing to become comfortable enough (and love) the long hose. I have seen some people, like my girlfriend, struggling even after 2 dives.
-Whould I call them if we go for a night dive near a shipwreck?
No way.
-Should I let them enjoy scuba in safe conditions without any extra equipments that make them uncomfortable and in case of an emergency they will struggle more, risking their lives and possibly mine?
Ofc.
Just be open-minded and wether you aggree or not, at least think what others have to say with tone of experience. There is not many globally BEST practices in scuba. There are practices that are best with respect to the mission, the context, the experience and the subset of tools of anybody's inventory. There is no (moronic) knowledge competition in scuba. It is hopefully a highly posistive sum game were the winners are just simply the ones that are enjoying the experience, and they are able to grab a beer after the dive and discuss with their loved ones without any health issues. Anything else is just borderline narcisism that ruins the community without any positive outcome. Especially with your attitude, I can see more people switching to veganism because they met one of these annoying stereotypical vegan type of guys in the internetz, than to long hose, because you told them so.
Seems fair point. Don't use a long hose unless trained to use it safely. I dive with a long hose on smaller dives to keep the skills fresh for more technical dives. Why would you want that stress if you just want to go for easy dives.
Right. The long hose was developed for and should be used for its intended purpose only - other than training and practice.
Bill Main did not develop the long hose nor in fact, DIR to help divers on shallow, warm reef dive.
It may or may not help them but, the point is, that was not his intention.
Alec
Alec I really like your channel. I think you're missing some points. If you are interested how divers should actually use the long hose and how it can benefit you in non-technical level diving:
Part 1: th-cam.com/video/GBVfZXXH_bk/w-d-xo.html
Part 2: th-cam.com/video/LrRB9-xsDKY/w-d-xo.html
I was trained primarily on long hose during my CMAS* (OWD equivalent). We did some training on the "standard configuration" since you'll probably run into that somewhere at some point. I do prefer the long hose setup since there is no chance for my safe second to come lose and be dragged across mud, always being able to find it blindly and somewhat increased comfort when turning your head. I don't mind running into the other configuration though and certainly don't see a need for endless discussions. I can deal with both and just enjoy the dive.
Also my main reason is that I exactly know where my safe second reg is. The long hose is convenient when the need for air share but my dives are always in open water and never deeper then 40m.
@twoknife, correctly stowed your safe 2nd or octopus does get caught or dangle everywhere. A lot of rental gear doesn't come with the clips so yes it would be an issue.
I use clips on my own kit and have never had a problem. That includes when I've gone inside wreck, caves, tunnels and other close environments.
Equipment malfunctions or misplacement will occur with equal frequency whether on long hose or standard. That is a moot point. If a diver is sloppy, NO set-up will suffice.
My main point in this video is not whether a long hose is good but rather if it's necessary. My opinion is no, not for recreational diving.
There are several problems associated with the long hose concept, whether used properly or not, starting with the idea of removing your primary from your mouth in an emergency.
Perhaps that's why I do not like the idea. Removing my primary from my mouth is risky at any time. At the moment my buddy runs out of air, sorry, it's not going to happen if I can help it!
Alec
Alec, I am a relatively new diver, and i am training with long hose. I prefer it. Makes more sense. More safety FOR ME. My safe second is FOR ME. Anything happens, my safe second is hanging on a necklace BCUZ ITS FOR ME. If you need air, Ill give you air and space to panic, stay away from me and my SAFE SECOND.
Ex. Panicing out of air diver approaching fron left side. Diver is out of air, hes gonna yank your air out in great panic, well, I hv my safe second, and i practiced procedures of replacing it while managing buoyancy and location.
Hi Alec, awesome to see you do a second iteration of this!
One comment though, there is only "one role" to take off due to that the rest of the hose goes over the belly, and then the slack is wrapped on the tank. What the donator would do after first solving the urgent out of air situation, is to extend the hose from the tank, providing a long hose distance between them. Important for single lane penetration etc. (not recreational).
So I totally agree with your point! long hose is not necessary for most recreational diving, and as a diver I guess you should ask yourself why you need a long hose before adopting it.
With backmount the hose runs down your back under your canister/pouch up your chest, and around your neck into your mouth.
With sidemount you only pull out enough hose to go around your neck, the rest remains tucked in the tank bands to be pulled out during an emergency. Because of the annoyance of having to tuck the hose back in, typically you only pull out the hose during actual full training runs where you are going to stop and reset before you do something else.
If I were uncomfortable switching regulators underwater I would find another instructor. Long hose or not. I teach regulator recovery, in fact it's required by every agency. I've been an inactive instructor since 2007. By the way there is only one roll.
Right you are. Regulator recovery and low air skills are standard with every agency and required for safe diving. Thanks for sharing J.
I certainly agree with this video. Long hoses are for tech divers who are penetrating wrecks, overhead environments, going through narrow opening etc. This is why the long hose was invented. For normal OW or Adv.OW recreational diving long hoses are not normally used. The use of a long hose requires specific training and practice.
I'd only clarify that any scuba configuration requires specific training and practice. Whether long hose or traditional routing, backplate/wing or jacket BC, regular practice in the pool or at the end of a dive with a consenting buddy is a must. :)
Specific training yes, and which is included in some openwater courses today. To donate your primary reg is not for tech divers only. Ask your self this in an out of air situation: who needs air most? Then be a good buddy, donate your primary and save the day;)
As I qualified in the early 1970s through the club system, ( CMAS, BSAC, RN & USN influences), can only comment on the chauvinism that has surfaced since that Advent of the commercials. The denigration of opposition shows a fear of discourse. I have always maintained when asked, that it is not the organisation, but the instructor that is important. I had buddy breathing drummed into me which stood me in good stead in a couple of incidences. I always use both 2nds on the dive and may end up using the octo. In the early days the 2nds had neckstraps that we removed and disdainfully called suicide straps. I have carried my octo in varying positions on a quick pull off clip, from accross my chest, on my rhs shoulder strap or on my BCs lower D ring. I like the idea of a longer coiled octo hose. (Although the practice of pinching the hose to put it through a D ring gives me the heebies!). The idea of shooting down other ideas if they do not line up with your organisation's mantras, leads to stagnation of improvements. Buddy pairs should be fimiliarised with each other's kit.
Basically, horses for courses?
Could not agree with you more, however BSAC has banned the long hose hargothian routing , and one of the reasons was that to deploy the user had to roll forward losing control. Even NIs need training, I can remember being told to only use my computer as a backup, and that I am suspended from diving because I did a Trimix dive to 60 meters when only a sport diver (not a club dive, and TDI XR Adv Tri, and IANTD deco procedures and Adv Nitrox)_ Depends on the club I know, but from what they are saying they appear to be outlawing something that they do not understand. Hopefully they will review once they have looked at it in a bit more detail.
My friend and my brother were diving buddies at the recreational level. My friend ran out of gas, signaled to my brother about it but promptly pulled the primary regulator out of my brother's mouth. So much for the common practice of donating an octopus.
Anyway, just saying that a person who trained the Hogarthian method from day one will be more familiar with donating a long hose than with donating an octopus, and vice versa. There's no need to be biased against the long hose.
No bias.
But buying a long hose does not make a safer diver.
Training, practice & regular trying of the system will.
Of course this same premise applies to any equipment.
My only beef is with dive stores that sell a piece of gear as a "lifesaver" but do not offer or specify the importance or training.
There’s a reason SSI and others teach primary donate and have for several years… OOA *will* go for the bubbles they see.
What happens when somebody surprises the person with a primary donate wrapped around their body and neck and just yanks it. Also I was taught SSI and was not taught primary donate.
Mr. Peirce,
My understanding is the use of the "long hose" has its origin in cave diving as it would allow divers to exit narrow passages single-file which would be impossible using a "short hose" which requires divers to swim side-by-side. But I am not a historian on the subject and that particular bit of trivia is immaterial to the efficacious use of the long hose.
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FLURRY OF ACTIVITY
Your critiqued the video demonstration you presented for not having any flurry of activity as might occur in an OOG emergency. If there were a flurry of activity as one might expect from a panicked diver underwater who is OOG, do you trust that person to act rationally or do you find it more plausible they will grab the first source of live-saving gas they see?
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INHALING WATER
You suggested there is an increased risk of inhaling water to the diver donating their primary in the manner depicted in the video. It is known a human possesses an instinct to seal the lips when water is applied to the face. This reaction is particularly strong if the water is applied around the lips. Perhaps this is linked to the mammalian diving response, but the origin is unimportant. What is important is that it is real and it is why free divers who use a snorkel discard it immediately upon initiating their dive and it is what makes it possible for infants to swim. It does not seem plausible that a diver who is willfully donating their primary would inhale water. I shall not say it is impossible, only that I have never seen this happen nor have I ever heard of it happening. Are you aware of any such examples of this occurring?
You are a far more experienced instructor than I. In all your decades of instructing thousands of students, perhaps such a situation as you described occurred with your students while doing regulator recovery underwater or regulator-snorkel exchange?
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Granted one victim is better than two, but how likely do you think it is that a diver who has just taken a breath cannot survive on that breath long enough to deploy their secondary which is on their necklace resting just below their chin?
Donating the primary on a long hose is faster and guarantees both divers the recipient who is in a life-and-death situation is receiving a working regulator. Using the standard "octopus" approach, how do you *know* (we do not want to assume in life-and-death situations, we want to know) your secondary is functioning properly?
Furthermore, a secondary on a necklace makes is far more easily and reliably deployed than an "octopus" on a short hose and the long hose makes donating to the left quite effective.
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DEMONSTRATIONS
Your demonstration successfully demonstrated weaknesses of the short hose/octopus configuration.
1. How do you know your octopus is working before you donate it to an OOG diver, or worse: a panicked OOG diver?
2. Your demonstration required you to be in a vertical position not in a horizontal (“trim”) position while the scenario you described: taking photos of something on the sea floor would put you in a horizontal position covering your octopus with the sea floor. Even if you were vertical, you would likely be facing something of interest: a reef, wreck, pillar, or other physical obstruction preventing an OOG diver from approaching you in the manner in which you demonstrated. As they would need to approach you from the side your arm would be obscuring your octopus. And if you are in a proper horizontal diving position the same problem arises. It seems to me the first thing an OOG diver is going to see are your bubbles and the first thing they are likely to reach for is the regulator producing them. Do you think it is more or less likely that an OOG diver will reach for the regulator in your mouth if they are nearly "out of breath" or worse: panicked?
3. You stated the short hose will allow the OOG diver to be far away from you. This is not true. Unless you rig your octopus as left-handed and the OOG diver approaches you from the right because unless both of those conditions are satisfied the octopus is either going to have to be upside down in their mouth (which could pose a safety hazard for the OOG diver), the hose must be folded back upon itself, or routed across the back of the neck just like the long hose routing which you were so critical of only with much less hose to do it. I suspect had you tried to prove your claim in your demonstration you would have immediately realized one of the shortcomings of the short hose. What reason do you think training agencies have for teaching divers to face each other and maintain close distance with the "Roman handshake"?
4. If the OOG diver is going to take the primary out of the donating diver’s mouth by surprise, "short hose training" is not going to prepare the donor for what to do. Is it unreasonable to think that could lead to two panicked divers, perhaps even a struggle for control of the regulator?
5. If without warning a diver were to feel some unknown thing forcefully tugging at them, is it unreasonable to think they may be startled? Wouldn't the natural reaction for most divers be to turn quickly to investigate? Wouldn't such turning take up what little slack there is with a short hose and possibly pull the regulator from the mouth of the recipient diver?
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SECOND ROLL
Your claim about a "second roll" of the long hose wrapping around the neck twice is simply wrong. The long hose properly worn is demonstrated correctly by the diver in the video clip you presented: it runs across the chest from right hip to left shoulder, routs behind the neck. There is no second roll or loop around the neck, it is not a noose.
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LONG HOSE IS NOT ESSENTIAL
The accident history of recreational SCUBA diving is clear: the use of the long hose is NOT essential. In that way, I can find agreement with you. However, it does offer benefits without any meaningful trade-offs (a long hose is slightly more expensive than a short hose). With either configuration training is required for OOG emergencies. In my opinion, a short hose involves a more complicated and less robust technique. The long hose is also forward compatible. If the diver chooses to go on to do technical diving (e.g., cave and wreck penetrations) they do not need to replace old training with new training.
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REQUEST FOR RESPONSE
You seem to have a very strong opinion regarding the use of the long hose which is without question based upon several significant misunderstandings. I hope you read this very long-winded post and find it merits your time to ponder and respond. I am interested to know your rebuttals to the arguments presented.
Thank you for your videos. I have found them to be entertaining, interesting, and beneficial to expanding my knowledge base.
Thanks for sharing your views with everyone. They can read and determine for themselves which method they prefer.
A
Expecting a detailed answer from someone who didn't bother to do proper research into the topic before making not one, but two videos claiming it's bad practice unless in very specific circumstances.
Maybe there's a lot of clapback to his videos because he's spouting nonsense on topics he knows little about.
Alec isn't a technical diver or technical dive instructor. His experiences lie in old school SCUBA, and that is fine. He can tell you a lot more about the history of SCUBA than most people. I just wish he wouldn't try to be the authority on things that are beyond his experience and knowledge.
He has an adverse disposition to anything developed through TEC diving. He can't bring himself to say that a DIN connector is better than a Yoke, though he lists all the advantage of DIN over Yoke. He doesn't understand backplate and wing setups. He doesn't understand long hose setups. He doesn't understand sidemount, cave, or wreck diving. It's out of his wheelhouse.
@@bloodymarvelous4790 he seems like a nice man who goes too far in trying to attract non-divers to the activity by making it less intimidating. in one video he told said he told a guy to take his wife diving with dive computers they did not understand how to use and not worry about it. IMO, that crosses into professional negligence.
Really enjoy your series and the wealth of knowledge you are able to share.
Many ‘TEC’ methods are freely adaptable to ‘REC’ diving and there is no reason not to benefit from them, it’s all diving.
A newbie CAN certainly start out long hose. I think backplate and wing, long hose, with frog kick techniques is a winning combination that makes better, more confident, and safer divers. Try it yourself, I think you would have made a different video if you had some experience with it.
Thanks Richard.
You assume I have not tried it which is not the case.
However, my cave diving and wreck penetration days are long over (think Florida caves before grills were installed and when technical divers (myself included) wore a big, heavy brass hat).
Like it or not, right or wrong, most divers today want to go diving now! That is, they are not prepared to spend the necessary money or time to develop the additional knowledge and skills required to properly use a backplate, wing, long hose, etc., hence the popularity of a 2-day certification scuba diving course. I cannot argue that these skills are not good but I will say they require more than a passing reference and scant minutes in a pool to master to a safe level.
To say they should be included in all diver training is to suggest that the current programs need to be changed back the much longer courses of yesterday. That's going to be a tough sell.
Alec
I love your channel but I fell you are out of your time on this subject.
You can practice and train to be polite and courteous underwater. Then when someone starts panicking and they rip your regulator from your mouth, all that practice you did was worth nothing. 😂
Hi Alec, Did you see inner space explorers put out a video in response to your long hose video ? Not sure they even saw yours , or understood the point you were making.
Outch... I would have preferrd to have missed that.
Why did they have to mention 'a certain video' that way?
ISE has a special talent for marketing blunders. :(
as a divemaster for deep water charters I use long hose for work. if the guest needs help i know my primary works and it gives me distance from the panicking diver. i always brief the guest to let them i know i will give them my primary. thankfully i have not had to use it in a rescue situation yet, knock on wood. but i completely agree long hose only works in professional or technical situations, yearly recreational divers have no reason to be taking their regulators out of their mouths. thanks for the great vids as always.
Good to hear from a DM who actually uses it for guests. Glad you have not needed to use it and thanks for watching Sydney.
A.
Just adding to the hornets nest. I agree with Alec, 99% of all diving done on this planet is recreational diving. Most of this 99% will dive less than 8 times per year for a maximum of 5 years before giving up. We should be encouraging simplicity and standardization. Go and learn to fly if you want to look at the art of safety and standardization. If a pilot has an missed approach, there is only one way to manage it (world wide), if a pilot has a engine failure on take off, there is only one way to manage it. Scuba Diving has one of the highest levels of participant death of any recreational sport (per participation hour).... maybe we should start to study why that is..and a good start would be to look at how pilots are trained.
1 out of every 211,864 dives ending in fatality doesn't seem so great a number when compared with the fatality rates of other activities. For example:
• 1 out of every 5,555 of registered drivers in the US died in car accidents in 2008 (www.cenus.gov).
• 1 out of every 7692 pregnant women died from pregnancy complications in 2004 (National Center for Health Statistics).
• 1 out of every 116,666 skydives ended in a fatality in 2000 (United States Parachuting Association).
• 1 out of every 126,626 marathon runners died of sudden cardiac arrest while running a marathon between 1975-2003 (National Safety Council)
Statistically, diving is safer than driving, having a kid, skydiving, or running a marathon.
Peter, your pilots are trained, statement shows your ignorance. They have studied this. The answer? A pilot is required to fill out a Pre flight check list, a diver is not. Your Statement and Alec's is what gets people killed.
I agree with you. The more I see content about scuba, the more I realise how customisation is huge in this industry. Everyone has a different setup and procedures and gear and no one really cares. BTW I should add that not all pilots are trained the same. Especially Russian and Chinese have some particularities but all in all it is standardized
@@almerindaromeira8352 You are correct on all account. That said, even Russian and Chinese pilots have a pre-flight check list, or at leas they use to. Generally when things go wrong, it started with the Pre-Dive Checklist, especially Re breathers, to my understanding.
Thanks Alec absolutely brilliant, I have learned a great deal from you. Really appreciate the time, your experience and expertise that you share.
My pleasure! Hope your smarter and had a laugh too.
A
Yes the humour is brilliant.we have to have a laugh. All the best Alec. Jeff
Dear god of diving, today I sinned. I panicked a little little bit while mask clearing 😂😂😂 i hadn’t dived for 6 month and had a whole new setup ( my first stage blocked a little bit while doing mask clearing, maybe o ring lube? ) I won’t do it again. Love your vids Alec you thought me much. I have 7 logged dives now, did my first dive today with a whole new setup. Everything worked out fine, had 56 minutes at 12m and I saw about 6-7 seaturtels and leopard stingray feeding on seegras 😍 thanks for your advice
- Primary donate with necklaced backup puts the backup safely under the chin. For you!
- A
Couple of issues i see with primary donate:
1) if you dive a full face mask, it's not possible (and FFMs are increasingly popular)
2) The "give your buddy your primary because your secondary might not work/be full of crabs/be to hard to breath from" what happens to me then? Do i politely have to ask my paniced buddy for my primary back?
It certainly has it's place, but it's no panacia for all ills, that's for sure!
Good points Max.
Alec
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter RE: 2) What happens to your OOA buddy if you give them a secondary that "might not work/be full of crabs/be to hard to breath from". I don't use it myself but one thing the primary donate ensures is that your secondary is as good as your primary.
Hi Alec. I think most people here are not seeing your point. A long hose is not safer just because is long. Every equipment has a purpose. Would it work for something else?, most likely. Most divers will not be able to maintain a perfect horizontal trimmed position in an emergency while sharing air, like you see in tech diving videos. And then go up in a perfect horizontal trimmed position. Also most recreational divers will never have to swim long horizontal distances under an overhead during an emergency. The procedure taught of grabbing your buddy's BC, using his/her primary or safe second, depending on what you briefed prior to diving, and then go up, not horizontally trimmed but just in a vertical position still works. Even "Buddy breathing" works if it comes down to it.
If you dive solo do you need a long hose?. Probably not. What you need is redundancy.
If you dive in visibility where you don't even see your partner, do you need a long hose? Must likely you will not even find your buddy in an emergency.
Will I go cave diving without the proper equipment (including the long hose) and training? No.
I also follow Achim from inner space explorers. Although he is a tech diver/instructor he has an interesting video th-cam.com/video/VecUuDo3bjE/w-d-xo.html about not always having to use tech diving techniques all the time.
Keep up with the excellent work
Really enjoy this video since it comes from accumulated experience. Have stumbled across this training agency that basically “demands” that all there students use the same standardised equipment setup (which includes long hose as a standard configuration), from basic to tech/cave. The notion seems to be: “Good enough for the most extreme circumstances, good enough for the simplest of circumstances”. A bit “militaristic” and it seams to prepare students for dive types they might never want to participate in.
Oh I hear you T.B.!
A.
Yes that GUE Nazi is a joke!
Then don't pick that training agency.
Some training agencies are designed to prepare you for more advanced diving from the get go. This means they teach you techniques that will work in any situation, and you A) don't need to relearn techniques later on, and B) won't buy SCUBA gear you will need to replace when you advance.
This training agency will probably also need you to use a backplate and wing setup instead of a jacket-style BCD.
I appreciate Alec's demo, but the comparison simply is off. If every ow diver was trained identically, regularly checked their equipment and kept their safe second in the same place, then sure. The reality is buddy checks are skipped, octo regs are often cheap and lower quality and each diver puts their octo reg in a different spot with a different attachment method. Sure, a long hose needs training too, but it's not a forgotten piece of equipment for a sidemount diver. You won't see me using it when I buddy with an inexperienced OW diver, but if I dive with another sidemount diver I know their secondary works and is where I expect it. Don't use a long hose without a Tec mindset.
Good points but I'm still diving because I know my gear, I check my buddies gear (even my wife's), and dive my training limits. That's how to get 5,000+ dives safely.
Appreciate your feedback.
Alec.
I dive a long hose. It is quite come in my group of divers. There is no tug on your reg as you turn head. if you have to donate it you know for sure that you are donating a working reg, when you do donate it you can be clear of the diver in case they are panicking. One thing to note is an out of air diver does not usually just forget to check their air. they could have a malfunction or freeze up
Totally agreed, Alec, but I sure missed the controversy at the time it really got people fired up, and for me, it showed the sport is still alive.
Just read past comments to see the wide range of beliefs on this subject. Almost as rabid as split fins vs rocket fins.
A
Hmm I love your videos but I cannot agree with this entirely or perhaps I'm biased. Conditions in out of gas situations are never ideal. What if your buddy is to far away from you or at a different depth or you are on your belly in the mud. Then you swim towards your buddy while searching for your backup where a long hose is deployed within a second. For open water you can use a smaller 5 foot hose. I see your backup is very nicely placed but often divers stow them in between their bcd or pockets and it's remarkable difficult to control proper ascent speed or a safety stop during an octo ascent. But yeah it comes down to proper training. As long as divers aren't trained for this, don't use it. Some agencies train students from owd level with a long hose but generally speaking they don't. Don't just buy it without proper training.
Hi Carlo. This debate is as long and divided as Sea Nova fins vs Rocket fins. I offer up suggestions to educate / inform divers on ideas they may not have considered before. My view is if you are equipped, trained, and confident with your buddy in a particular setup, have fun diving. As I said with other subjects, there really is no "best" anything in scuba (my view after 60 years). Definitely pros and cons but a smart diver thinks about their setup not just copies it to look cool. Appreciate your views and dive safe in whatever gear you prefer.
I dont think hes against a physically long hose, rather his issue is with primary donate.
I like 5 foot
Hi Alec, Watched and enjoyed this episode. Be well to you and Kevin. Best Regard's, Mark
You made a lot of good points but you also missed a lot of points as to why divers prefer to use a primary donate. Also you should be paying attention to those around you in the water. Check out Achim Schlöffel at ISE
Thanks Abdul, I will.
I experienced an out of air myself where my cousin was on a long hose. The good thing of having that long hose is we had plenty of space moving around still, or where i moved under him and we could get to the exit point safely. Where with a shorter octopus you have to be really close to each other and there is not alot of freedom of movement.
The long hose was developed for use in confined spaces - caves, wrecks, etc.
In those circumstances it's perfect.
Otherwise it's a nuisance.
You would'd take a dump truck to a Drive-In movie.
You wouldn't pick up a load of gravel in a Toyota Tercel.
Alec
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter wow Alec that certainly reveals some pent up frustration. If we did not evolve, we would still be diving with no BC or worse an ABLJ, the Buddy Commando was slated by some training agencies when it was first marketed. I have enjoyed many of your videos and feel that you have provided a great service to the dive community. This is obviously causing you some serious worries, perhaps take some training to ensure that you have the correct config and reasons for using it and then do another video with a more balanced perspective. I would prefer that if I had to exit in surf in an emergency, I would much prefer a two meter hose than a standard config. Overhead Environment or not.
12:38 that would only be helpful if you're diving vertically for some strange reason.
if you're in proper trim, your buddy would not see your safe 2nd on your chest.
I know those vertical divers, we used to call them National Geographic divers. Always into the hard to reach places.
A
Fair point, thanks.
A
Definitely i'm agree with you, you don't need a long hose for a 18m (60ft) open water dive, in the rare case of having a running out gas dive buddy your concern will be keeping your buddy close to you and try to ascent in a safe rate, in case of not being experienced enough to manage the problem we should remember the rule of "first my safety, then my safety and at the end my safety"
Perfect thought.
Thanks. Alec
Rec night dive down to about 75 ft, working our way to shore. Whole group was drysuit, doubles tec config, but it was a rec dive. Near the end of dive, my buddy signals out of air at about 15 ft. If I was on "normal" setup, he would take my alternate and we would go up and swim to the shore. No biggie, right? I had a better idea. Donated my primary, took my bunggied second in my mouth, showed my pressure to my buddy (over 100 bars) and we continued following the bottom up. Was it unsafe? No, it wasn't, we could go up an time we wanted.
You're right, you do not need long hose, but I still have to see a situation where it is unsafe to have one. Better to have and not need it, than don't have when needed.
What if it isn't safe to ascend immediately, say due to boat traffic?
@@admiki9808 in your example what makes any difference it is your doubles rig not the lenght of the hose, but now i have a question, why do you need a doubles rig for a non deco 75 ft shore entry dive?
@@kostainseattle considering that i wasn't able to deploy a dsmb or i don't have any, no matter if i have a long hose or a yellow hose octopus if i'm getting out of air i will have to go to the surface or drown
Great perspective. I thought about going the hogarthian way. But realized I scuba for fun and the Scuba Nazi's of that style did not fit my style. If i were interested in caves and other high risk areas i would probably be into and more acceptable to that method. But i do want to try sidemount just for having 2 tanks for more air and not on my back. So i believe we should take in all information to learn. And then adapt any skills, techniques, equipment that meets our individual needs.t
No one says that you have to go full DIR. Unless you step in the den of the beast, like Extreme Exposure, no one will care if you don't jump into it whole hog. And if they do give them the finger and jump in the water.
Hi! Alec Pierce Scuba.. I have a serious question.
I have a custom skirt fitted mask from a dive school. Fits my face better than any1 i see in the water. I can make my mask fully dry during the whole dive, because the skirt fits so snug on my face.
How come we dont have more custom dive masks?
I have a SeaVision Mask, custom skirt, and color correction, exclusive from SPE Dive School, near DC. Owned by Mike Parker, who is also a Dive legend just like you!!! you probably met him before.
I know Mike Parker, a very innovative guy.
The first dive mask in North America was custom fitted to each diver's face. Of course that was because each was hand made. There were no commercial mask available then. I have one of only 3 remaining examples of that mask. I did a video on it in my Vintage Scuba playlist.
Today a custom-fitted mask would be too much money for most to consider.
Alec
Alec -- Great videos!!!! don't let the haters get you down. that is how you know you are getting popular. the complainers are probably keyboard divers. and i do the long hose thing but i got it from my cave diving training, the thinking was that if you are in a cave only big enough for one person and you or your buddy runs out of air, the out of air person gets the long hose and you leave the cave single file, one behind the other if you will. but yes you are right people get wrapped around the axel. on this,
Thats the idea behind it but if I'm in a cave that tight, I'm doing something wrong so I send in Kevin first.
long hose is not needed in recreational diving especially for the new person
That is my point. New divers need to master the basics before expanding their boundaries (and budget).
I got my OW with bp/w and long hose. Not sure what's the extra complexity, but I know that air-sharing also in rec levels is safer, more controlled, and more comfortable, without requiring contact with the other divers.
@@mariosx12: I do agree on your vision. I started of with bp/w with long hose. Much more comfortable and safer than ‘basic’ setup. Everything is just personal preferences. Once you are used to it, nothing’s better.
I think the “standard setup” is ok until you get in overhead environments. I use the standard setup in backmount and the long hose in sidemount. By the way, the only time I had to share my air I was with a long hose outside a rec in Florida. For me, I would prefer to use the long hose exclusively just for the sake of consistency when I respond in an emergency. But this would require to instruct my buddy the procedure if he/she is out of air. By the way, Alec, I assume you do not carry your spg loose as in your example.
Good points Luis and glad to hear you acknowledge your buddies training and setup also. My dive computer is secure in water but hoses flop all over trying to take a picture.
Alec
Very interesting video Alec. My first car wasn't a Ferrari and I wouldn't have known how to drive it properly if it had been.
I think carefully is the right word.
A Ferrari are no different than any other standard, high-performance sports car. They are really just a very fast MG.
Alec
I think the most important point is the question after the proper training. I personally got familiar with the Long Hose as well as other eqipment and procedures discussed here when i moved from recreational to tecnical diving. So for that type of diving I know what is my safe post as well as why I always follow the concept of Priary Donate. (Donating the Long Hose is just one possible variation of this. Think about diving with multiple Stages containing different gas-mixtures. Which one is safe to breath at that moment? For sure that on in the divers mouth)
So from my perspective Alec is asking the right question. What is the benefit or added value of diving a long hose in a pure recreational dive where multiple stage cilnder which may contain mixtures that can´t be used over the whole dive and/or restrictions that force the dive team into certain formations for sure are not present? Why change to mor complicated and for sure more demanding system / set of rules when the bacic necessety to do so is not present?
just my 2 Cent
Thanks for sharing you experiences Harald.
A
When I was a brand new diver I have been trained with a long hose and necklace with a BP/W (the instructor is a tech diver and that's how he says he'll teach his divers) and that's how I dive and I disagree with most of your points.
-It is not "standard" for recreational divers, yes, but that's the kind of thing you will simply mention to your buddy during the briefing, especially that my long hose is bright yellow, if they insist on looking for the yellow hose,
-taking a regulator out of your mouth does not create a "dangerous situation" because why would it? I can just go to my secondary which I know is on my neck and has no physical way of going away, which brings me to the third point,
-panicked buddy in an out of air situation will most likely rip a regulator out of your mouth (and always at a moment as you're about to inhale and have no air in your lungs) regardless of your setup which - in the case of a long hose and necklace - you're very quick to resolve by going to your necklace, if this happens with a standard setup and your buddy snatched your primary air because he couldn't find your octo - what are the odds of you being able to find it quickly at the same situation as your buddy was a second ago - and now that creates a dangerous situation.
I find this video simply unnecessary and more like an attempt to discredit divers on a long hose as if they are doing something wrong than anything else.
Your welcome to share your views here as they were respectfully made. As for this being an unnecessary video, no agreement. Divers young and old need to be exposed to changing gear, training, and procedures to expand their knowledge. As for being a 'standard', i counted the number of drive trips i led/joined in the last 5 years and came to 8 trips. The number of long hose divers in all those trips = Zero. Why? Because from teen to stone age diver, they all setup and used the 'standard' gear setup, aka not long hose. Also I checked back in the trip material from these liveabords and resorts, none mentioned long hose setup once.
My point is the long hose is used by a group of divers for a purpose they believe requires it, however, none of the major training agencies, travel groups or resorts state is it mandatory, if mentioned at all.
My point was to introduce long hose techniques to those who may never have heard of it so they are aware of it as a option.
Thanks for your feedback Hunter and hope my reply is also accepted with understanding. Take care and dive safe.
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter I think it would be fine if the video focused more on showing the divers that don't know about this kind of setup that it does exist and it is completely fine and they should not be afraid of diving with someone with such gear and ask for air - that I 100% agree with. I don't agree with demonizing the setup and spreading fear among divers who never saw something like this and implying that sharing air this way is dangerous. Additionally - I don't want to switch from my long hose because that's the way I've been trained, that's the way I dive and I want to do technical diving in the near future, which would make no sense for me to switch at this point. I think it's good if everyone is comfortable with their gear and confident in their abilities.
With that said, thank you for taking the time and a response, safe diving to you too, sir!
Hi Alec. In a few of your videos you have referred to the safe second is only for other dummies to use, this may be true but have you never had a primary failure for some reason? I heard of a couple of failures of secondary's because of foreign material (bad hose rubber bits) plugging up the valve opening? In your fifty years of diving you can't have been that lucky. Or perhaps a torn diaphragm or exhaust valve?take care Owen m
In over 6000 dives, from Alaska to Fiji, I have never had a piece of scuba gear fail catastrophically. That is, fail to give me enough air to sustain life. I've had some crappy regs, some wet regs, some dives where I was extremely short of air and other terribly unlikely things happen (almost all due to my stupidity), but modern scuba gear, even if not well-maintained will not fail, at least not to point of placing the diver at death's door.
Won't say it can't happen or even that it hasn't happened but never heard of it or seen it happen.
Alec
Hi mwwhited thanks for your thoughts, I was only relaying info from some other scuba sites, I have never had this happen to me, however as a mechanic I do realize that unexpected failures do occur, thus the need for the safe second. take care Owen m
yes this long hose looks like it's not fitting for most divers, i hole heartily agree with your thinking, do not mess with the standard safe second lay out as it is, it works just fine.
Thanks for watching Tim.
Straight forward and sensible. I'm a bit curious on the Hoegarthian set up but it sounds like some of the divers here wouldn't need to use it if they just did thorough buddy checks, and didn't stray too far from each other on dives. This would stop most of these "panicked," scenarios from occurring in the first place. In an out of air in rec open water sure you'd both ascend ASAP. No need for your buddy to be four foot away from you for that. If they're out of air, including their BC that'd turn them into an anchor on a long hose. Fair play Alec. Keep up the good work. :)
Thank you Stephen and keep watching, lots to learn.
If they're an anchor on your long hose, they're an anchor on your octo as well. And your buddy not being correctly weighted isn't a reason to go for one or the other.
The long hose also isn't so another diver can reach it from further away. You're not throwing it at them. The OOA diver needs to come and collect the regulator. The long hose is useful so the panicked diver doesn't need to stay in your face. He can move more freely. Take some more distance to sort himself out. Or in a constricted space follow behind you, or swim out in front of you, without anybody getting kicked in the face.
Great videos keep them coming!
I breathe the long hose. A lot of the diving in the UK is on wrecks with penetration so, as you rightly said, it adds significantly to safety in this circumstance. I also use the long hose on recreational dives. On recreational dives I believe both systems are equally safe BUT this is all down to training.
Only once in 21 years of diving (17 on the long hose) have I actually had reason to use my necklace reg. During that incident the situation was very well manage by my buddy and myself, there was no drama. I would definitely say the extra hose length helped a lot to keep the situation under control. Having said that should a learner diver start on the long hose. ABSOLUTELY NOT. Training at the beginner level needs to be kept as simple as possible.
It has always amazed me how much vehement comment this one simple change to dive kit has produced. It is just a hose, with training it is safe, without it it is not.
All very good points Stuart and thanks for sharing. My key first point was always that new divers need simple, understandable skills if they are to stay with this sport. An O/W diver with 4 dives is not ready for long hose training when buoyancy and descent/ascent skills need practice first. Take care sir.
8:35 No, there's just one 'roll'. The long hose doesn't warp around the neck, it comes from your right cylinder, passes from right to left in front of your chest, passes behind the neck to the right hand side of the reg. The majority of the length of the long hose is stowed on the cylinder via elastic bands and only deployed in an emergency, which the video clip didn't show.
Yep, There are lots of videos about the correct deployment of the long hose.
My point here is simply to suggest that for most divers, the standard octo is simple, easy, cheap, well-understood and recognized.
Alec
To each his own, but objectively the pros of a long hose config (quite a few of which you failed to mention) easily outweigh the cons. Any diver worth his salt should be comfortable taking his primary out of his mouth. And let's be honest here, the primary donate procedure is not a very complicated thing to learn (and no, there is no second roll). There is nothing tech or difficult about it and it simply makes way more sense, as long as your buddy is in the know of course. It's okay to admit that old procedures and habits may have to be updated when a better idea comes along. That said, I really like your channel and appreciate you taking part in this discussion.
Thanks Frank. All reasonable discussions welcome here. If you want to start a flame war in scuba, say one fin is better than another then stand back. Makes long vs short hose debates seem tame!!
I'm ready to start a flame war so I'll just say it, the RIGHT fin is far superior to the left,hands down, and any diver, instructor, institution, or shop that attempts to brainwash you into thinking otherwise is not fit for the scuba community and should stay out of the water
Ok this is a pretty contentious one...
I’m a recent convert to a long hose setup, donating my primary in an emergency and moving to my backup on a short hose / necklace setup.
I can’t find any reason why I would go back to the ‘standard’ setup. In your scenario everything was smooth and easy, and as you said your ‘buddy’ wasn’t in a rush. The reason for my change was a) a lot of research, and b) dealing with an OOO diver who came up and took my reg out of my mouth as he was drowning.
1) The first reg a drowning person sees will be the first reg a drowning person goes for. Regardless of colour, the thing that’s blowing lovely life saving bubbles will be what they go for - aka the reg in your mouth. Studies have shown this to be the case, as has personal experience.
2) Again in your scenario your ‘buddy’ pulled your octo and then happily swam alongside you. Movement whilst sharing air in this setup is literally impossible... why run the risk of removing your ability to move?
So... my primary is on a yellow 7’ long hose. If my buddy (or anyone for that matter) is in trouble, they take that (either because it’s yellow and they see it, or because it’s blowing bubbles out of it and they see it) and I just switch to my necklace which is always in the same position and can be found blindfolded.
DSMB’s, lift bags and even octos were all originally ‘just for specific tec purposes’ and are now mainstream. I see no reason why the standard setup won’t be replaced by the long hose donate setup in the future. In the same way back inflate and BP/W BCD’s are gaining a lot of traction but were once rarities...
here is a crazy idea, how about a new safer worldwide stander with a longhose...
Todays standard recreational setup took many decades to evolve into safe and widely taught courses. Anyone can transition from OW to longhouse or back plates or tech or HOG setups. The vast majority of recreational divers stay with the standard setup after OW certification for comfort, cost and compatible with other divers. I want divers to branch out, learn new skills and experiences, diving has so many branches to explore. It's up the the training agencies to adapt their curriculum to what divers need to be safe, have fun and keep on diving. Sorry for the long response, my fingers got away from me.
Thanks
Alec
Long hose for side mount because you need more room for the side tanks and it allows us to continue the dive
Good point Fredy.
Please look to people who understand long hose diving to get a deeper explanation of it. Alec is not one of those people. I was originally taught scuba diving with a long hose and backplate and wing. I only dove the 6 times in the class. Years later when I starting diving again, rather than take a single day refresher course, I took another full scuba course. The 2nd course had the standard setup, jacket BC, and standard reg with an octo.
During this second scuba class, I could easily see that diving with a long hose setup was more comfortable and safer than the traditional 'safe second' style setup. The most dangerous creature in the water is not a shark, it is an out of air diver. An out of air diver will not calmly and rationally wait for you to give them your octo. They need air... FAST! They are going to grab the reg that they know is working, the reg in your mouth.
Maybe you have dove with your dive buddy for decades. Maybe you trust them implicitly. That does not mean they will be the only person who is going to come to you for air. With the long hose, if they grab the reg out of your mouth, you simply bow your head slightly to allow for the ONE loop of hose around your neck to slide off. While your head is closer to your chest, grab your secondary reg, or necklace and put it on your mouth.
The long hose is typically 5 or 7 feet. Either works, and I've dove with both. There is a high likelihood that an out of air diver is a panicked diver. You don't want a panicked diver up in your face and the long hose can give you and the rescued diver some much needed breathing room.
Alec, of you do not understand the correct terminology, you do not know enough to make a video teaching others about it.
Seems Alec understands SCUBA way more than you or 99% of the people commenting here do.
@@bill2292 Yeah. But everything I said is still the case.
@@bill2292 Dave is right, how many RL Rescue scenarios have you been involved with? Have you taken a Rescue or DM course? Have you worked as a DM? If you had, your would apologize for your statement.
I appreciate your comments Dave.
1. I clearly stated that my expertise was not with the long hose.
2. I clearly stated that the long hose has a legitimate use.
3. I clearly sated that current divers will not grab your primary. That's very old school thinking brought to life again to
support the long hose concept. Accepting that also requires you to accept Buddy Breathing as legitimate.
4. I clearly stated that it was a mistake to extend the use of the long hose from its original purpose to become a
solution to an OOA situation. It was NOT initiated nor developed for that purpose and does NOT suit that role well.
You seem to be sensitive about your preference for the long hose - an indication that you are unsure. If you must fight to get others to agree with you, perhaps the issue is not the ignorance of others.
I have been in more than a few U/W scenarios that could easily have become disasters. Sitting in a classroom debating the possible actions of others and what we should do is not an acceptable solution.
While there were some technical errors in my description of the deployment of the long hose, the debate over whether I should remove my primary in an OOA emergency is long over. It's NOT going to happen.
Hopefully my dive buddy is properly trained and savvy enough to know where his salvation lies - not in my mouth but hanging out there, brightly colored, on a longer hose, waiting for him to take it.
Rather than discuss with your dive buddy the use of the long hose in its new and false role as an OOA solution, perhaps you should discuss the use of the much easier and safer use of the standard Safe Second.
Alec
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter Agree to disagree Alec. Rather than go down this flame war path, I think it's best for us to part ways.
I have been diving for 5 years now and I still enjoy your videos.
Thank you and hope you learn something new from them.
Great video Alec!
I am going to give my two cents on the subject. Last summer when i took my SSI ow certification i was taught to always donate my primary regulator to an out of air diver. When in the water practicing this procedure (with the standard hose configuration) me and my buddy realise that it is a very inefficient use of hose length and in the end not practical. We are now looking to switch procedure and we will probably try the medium hose (5ft) primary donate procedure.
Anyways i thought you might be interested to know that SSI teaches primary donate.
Again great work Alec your videos have made me an informed diver.
Well I'm very glad it has made you a smarter and safer diver. Thanks for watching Markus.
the 5 footer is okay...... but it tends to get in the way and gets snaggy. rubber hoses do better than flex hoses. rubber stays put and flex hoses tend to float away from your body. you can tuck it in your waist or use an octo pocket if your BC has one, but its not as convenient as the long hose. the direct primary air share works decent in a pool, laying on the bottom, face to face. Hovering over a reef of fire coral, or suspended over the edge of a 1000 foot deep wall...... ehhhhh........ give me the longer of the hoses please. lol
I'm not sure if you saw this, but InnerSpace explorers made a video in response to this th-cam.com/video/IL77F3K5Hz4/w-d-xo.html. Basically, he said that all (recreational) divers who use a backmounted single should use a long hose and backplate/wing. I think it's a tool for a job, like anything. Recreational divers usually have poor buoyancy, trim, and propulsion anyways so introducing a long hose doesn't do any good since they would probably struggle to maintain trim while deploying it. As a cave diver, we need to exit in a single file in the event there are tank failures in the deepest point of penetration and the long hose has the length to do so. Personally, I think that open water divers need to be trained at a higher level like what GUE does.
It's always interesting to me when specialist (ie tec) divers want recreational dives who do maybe 6-12 a year typically to move up to their view of what a diver should be. Training agencies train many thousands of rec divers yearly who like and want simple underwater fun, not more gear, more training, just fun. The current 'standard' setup for rec does that very well IMO. If you have a setup that you like, long hose, backplate, wing, etc, enjoy it and share with others. Telling occasional divers to do more is a bit of an ego push. Happy divers using safe gear makes our sport fun and growing. Maybe when CCR's become as simple as todays rec setup, everyone will jump to CCR's. Who knows. I have see so many changes in gear, training and diver wants that anything is possible, but not today.
A
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter I agree. Tec and cave divers have equipment, protocols, and methodology that works well with their type of diving. There is no way I'm entering a cave system with single tank and "octo." At the same time, I won't hesitate to put on a jacket BC in the open water for a recreational dive. Many CCR divers see open circuit as foolish. I don't know as I don't dive rebreathers but it's all a matter of perspective. Same as the long hose - its supporters stand by it based on their experience and training.
Something confuses me about the long hose system. Why isn't the safe second on a long hose and coiled neatly against the right ribs and the short hose used as the primary? I have heard the argument that in an out of air situation, the diver may rip the reg out of your mouth, but I think training people to use the bright yellow octo will help prevent that. I think training recreational divers to use long hose actually make that more likely. And there is also the risk that the mouthpiece will come off the regulator as they grab it.
I don't know, I am not a very experienced diver, so maybe this is just ignorance. It just seems like the way long hose is used is kind of the worst option of the 3. Having a longer hose octo would make training from recreational to technical more seamless in this regard.
@@robdahlgren0506 I dive primarily in sidemount especially in caves. This means that I am switching regulators between my two cylinders constantly. At any given time, I am on my long hose or short hose. I do not have a "safe second;" I have two primary regulators. It doesn't matter though because I am always donating my long hose in either case. For doubles, you are always breathing off the long hose and the secondary is on a necklace. Why? Because like you said, the long hose is coiled around your neck. If someone was out of air and it was stowed away, they would strangle me (if I wasn't quick enough to move the hose) if they were to grab for it. That's why I am breathing off of it so I can control the situation since its in my mouth. They have no choice but to follow my lead since I am the one who is level headed in that situation. Personally, I am fine with any donate setup in recreational open water dive as long as it's not absurd.
@@aliasincognito0 Thanks for the response. I am still a little confused, though. Speaking to normal single tank recreational use, if I have the long hose wrapped around my neck and my buddy is trained to use that in an out of air situation, how does that reduce the chances of my being strangled if he grabs for it? If the long hose were used as a safe second and coiled in such a way that it will release when the pulled, it just sounds safer to me.
It seems like a panicked diver is going to rip the reg from my mouth while it is wrapped around my neck. While training doesn't always kick in for people during emergency situations, it just sounds wrong to train people to look at the regulator in my mouth as their next option.
I am a relatively new diver, and we were taught primary donate at the beginner's class (SSI, a year ago). The reason stated was that you are giving your buddy a regulator you do know that work, and if the person is panicked, they will grab for anything, so I did convert to a a long hose setup, so that you have a longer hose to donate in case of emergency (However I am preparing to be able to penetration wreck dive in the future, as there are some certain wrecks that are on my diving bucket list). I am not really too invested in which emergency procedure is used, as long as I know, what my buddy uses, and he/she knows what I will do.
It's now a personal choice for many based on diving profile, skill, training and like. Just like split fins or electric cars.
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@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter I wouldn't dive with an electric car...
There are many reasons that the Long Hose is better, and many that are not. In my mind there is ONE reason that the long hose adds risk (familiarity / Training)..
I am an ex Techie, it just became too big an investment in cash, effort and time to maintain my skills, pay for gas, equipment maintenance, training dives before major exploration dives etc.
I now dive with my son in the UK, he is a PADI Open Water and I only wish that my buoyancy had been as good when I was at his level. So he is a PADI Open Water and I no longer do 80, 90 metre dives, so I would be remiss if not using a standard setup. Well that is a matter of opinion of course, but yes I do dive a long hose.
I too have seen divers with a long hose looped around their neck, THIS IS WRONG, these divers need training.
So why? there are many reasons for both, but these are my reasons for diving a long hose:
1. I know that it is working, because I am breathing from it
2. I AM RESPONSIBLE FOR MY GAS - somebody using your octopus without your knowledge is dangerous to you and means that you have lost control, I have seen divers think this is funny???. Primary Donate precludes this from happening.
3. I have had two out of air situations that caused me issues, both newly serviced kit that failed after a check out dive where they appear to be perfect. Both times I was at depth exceeding 30 metres at the time. Both were with a team using long hose and both were conducted without anything more that the dive being canned early. And a full and frank discussion with the service centre.
4. For Divers that have poor bouyancy control, you need to make contact and a vertical position is always better in these circumstances, but this is easily achieved with Long Hose, and just requires the hose to be put back in the belt.
5. I cannot justify this, but a BPW with long hose is more comfortable for me, I am more streamlined, my trim is spot on, know where everything is and when it is needed muscle memory takes over.
So why would I not use a long hose:
1. To look Techie, we all know they are out there and have no clue what they are doing.
2. My son took his OW with a standard BC and has standard kit (wing BC). If he was not willing to do drills, I would be force to go back to standard.
3. We know who you are:
Holiday divers, who have lost their skills over the winter
Divers that do not listen to briefings
Divers who think a buddy check can be performed with a sideways glance
If you are diving with a numpty, no long hose, it just gets in the way, and if the worst happens they are more likely to suffer uncontrolled panic, because despite your best efforts they were not listening when you explained it to them.
4. Unwilling to do a drill every dive.
At the start of the descent: 3-5 meters away from the shot if possible unclip the longhose from canister / knife and show buddy that it is not tangled and is ready to deploy
Breath from safe second so you know that it is working
re-clip and go dive
5. Diving with an agency that precludes a long hose. It is your choice to dive with them, and therefore you have to abide by the standards of the agency / club that you dive with.
In summary I think that for me diving with my son and wife, long hose makes sense, for diving with somebody unwilling to spend two mins in water check / drill, probably not. For somebody that an S-Drill is a type of shoe, also notbut NO is a strong word, and I have to agree to disagree. Love the Videos and wish you well.
My sincere thanks Lee on this excellent, and unbiased comment. I hope others read it and decide for themselves which technique best meets their personal diving profiles. Take care and thanks for watching.
Your mistake may be that you took the service technician for granted. That's what I call a 'trust me' dive. Before leaving the dive outlet I always test the reg out. In one incident, air was streaming out of the turret. The second mistake is that you should have done several shore dives to test the equipment is working satisfactorily. I disagree with you on looking like a technical diver. Most OW divers using the long hose are being prepped to go tech.
A little off topic, have you ever dove the Doria? Im assuming you have with all your experience. If so with who, what year?
Hi Rick. Not the Andria Doria, too difficult for my old bones but I did do a lot of crazy things (I just didn't know it at the time).
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter Haha I bet. Love your content. Keep it coming.
Thank you Alec, for not making me feel like a young stupid smartass diver. I've encountered a lot of older divers who wouldn't say anything else than "give away your primary because you're sure it works". Some divers in their 30's or 40's I know still think like that... For rescue purposes, I've got an octo clamped to a 2.10 meters orange fluorescent hose on my side. Quite visible, and one would grab that first instead of grabbing the one in my mouth!
Knowing that it works is the #1 reason I'm not going to give it away. If anyone is going to take a chance with my octopus, it gets to be the other person. And Alec, thanks for fixing the video. Better this time, and hard to argue with. Of course, there is the matter of rec divers using seconds on their BC inflator hose, which they will have to switch to in an emergency, but those dive teams can discuss primary donate at the beginning of the dive (and hope people remember in a panic). All the jokes about vegans being so anal would seem to transfer across pretty easily to DIR divers.
You guys ever do equipment checks? Breathing 3 breaths in the water before you submerge?
What do you think is going to happen if you donate a reg that doesn't work?
@@kostainseattle I've seen way too many divers who had their backup reg come loose from whatever type of holder they used. It may have worked fine while testing it at the beginning of the dive, but after dragging it around behind them in the mud, it may not work so well later. The idea of giving the OOA diver a known working reg is that they are either panicking or could be near panic. You want to calm them down. You would have just taken a breath from your primary, so you have a bit of time before you need another breath. A diver with a long hose and a backup on a necklace never has to worry about their backup coming loose or getting fouled.
Paul Wake I think your reply makes its own case ... obviously I’d prefer to never be your buddy
@@AN-sm7xb these replies are why I hate unknown insta buddies.
Alec - I have enjoyed all of your videos, respect your opinion on many matters and am happy to see you have corrected your earlier video on this topic. However I disagree with you on several points made in this video. You say the Long-Hose arrangement is made for one purpose only (penetration/overhead etc) and so use of it for any diving outside of this (or training for it) is therefore unnecessary and unsafe. I think this is wrong. The purpose of your alternate regulator is to enable you to give gas to another diver if they require it (out of gas/equipment malfunction etc) and so the correct thing to do is to assess how best to do that - what makes gas sharing easier or harder. Irrespective of an overhead environment, need to leave a wreck/cave in single file or being in open water the extra length afforded by a long hose (and therefore distance between the two divers) means that two people can easily, comfortably and safely breath from one persons gas supply and ascend to the surface at their planned, safe ascent speed. Whilst a standard octopus-style set up allows two people to share gas I do not feel it allows them to do so comfortably, therefore their ascent profile is compromised and thus their safety.
In addition with a long hose/bungied secondary setup I know exactly where both of my regulators are at any one time allowing quick and easy swapping between them as needed (if my primary 2nd stage gets dislodged then its an easy matter to swap to the secondary 2nd stage I know is under my chin). I have seen too many standard set-ups where the octopus has become dislodged from the clip holding it, or when people attempt to use it it has become tangled and thus difficult to use.
My wife has learnt to use a long hose from her first open water course, I switched shortly after my OW, and she has never struggled with the use of it, or gotten herself "tangled up". I/we regularly practice gas sharing ascents/swims and the long hose is an integral part of being able to do this whilst comfortably controlling our buoyancy, trim and ascent speed and profile.
The long hose does, however, have one disadvantage - it is long and therefore requires thought as to how to stow it and I have yet to see a suitable solution for a jacket style BCD.
Thanks for your comments.
You and your buddy are doing things perfectly. Most do not. Very few divers in my experience, extensive if I may be immodest, practice their emergency skills at all much less regularly. In that case, ANY emergency is going to be difficult.
Having decided to adopt the long hose concept and further, practicing it regularly with your normal buddy, is excellent diver practices.
You do bring up an excellent point - how long should the Safe Second hose be? The standard octo hose is 40" long. That's almost twice as long as a primary hose and should place the diver at the optimal distance - far enough away that the divers can operate with interference of each other but close enough that they can communicate and stabilize each other if needed.
A 7' hose is so long that it almost itself becomes part of the problem - too much hose!! Certainly if the OOA diver is at the end of the 7' he is not able to effectively communicate (not in our water anyway) and certainly is not close enough to allow the donor to assist him with buoyancy or anything else.
Consider that a diver who is 7' away is beyond the recommended distance to still be a buddy diver. A buddy is supposed to be within reaching distance at all times. This added to all of the other technical difficulties of the long hose practice makes one start to question its use - as I'm doing.
Take care.
Alec
Neil, Very well stated. I think (NOTE the phrase "I think", therefore this is OPINION on best practice, and not FACT) that the mistake made in this video is to inextricably associate a long hose configuration with tech diving. The history of diving (and I have not been diving for anything like the years that Alec has) shows us that some practices that began as "dangerous tech practices, only for the highly trained" can make it into mainstream recreational diving because it is a better practice and dogma gives way to common sense. An example is the use of Nitrox - once vilified as too dangerous and only for Tech Divers is now mainstream and used safely on millions of dives every year.
IMHO, before discussing the length of the hose, the discussion should center on whether or not to donate the primary or safe second in an out of gas situation. The agency that I teach for asks instructors to teach both (I think that this is wise as a diver could encounter both configurations), but recommends donating primary as best practice. I think that we will see more of a swing in this direction over time across all agencies.
Once that is determined, then decide how long the hose should be. It can be as short as a 40" hose passed under the right arm or over the right shoulder. It could be a 5' "Long hose" passed across the chest and around the neck or a 7' Long Hose across the chest and around the neck. For what it's worth, when diving Open Water recreational configurations with a single tank I much prefer a 6' hose and I have used this configuration since shortly after my Open Water certification because, having researched the pros & cons, talked to some divers that I respect and considered the best option for my buddy's safety (which, at the time, was my 14 year old son), I concluded that the longer hose gave us more options in an out of air situation (which, by the way, never occurred - except in practice simulations, which we did frequently).
In conclusion. I think (NOTE: "I think" - opinion, not dogma) that, as an industry, we should carefully consider innovations in equipment and configurations and evolve, adopting what we deem to make the sport safer and more enjoyable and not be too dogmatic. I'm NOT advocating chasing every new fad just because it looks cool, or there was an article about it somewhere, but we should judiciously evolve our configurations as more information becomes available.
@@grahambirch3715 Great example with Nitrox. If you walk into a dive shop and say "I want to learn how to dive, what do I do?" they will not put you in an OW course with Nitrox. You have to complete OW then get Nitrox certified. I believe that is Alec's point about all this. Long Hose isn't for a new, rec diver. Get your OW first, get in some dives, then if you want to look into Long Hose, great, get some training and try it out.
As a wreckage diver I perfer the a 8 foot long hose just because my dive buddy can be behind me out of the way as we go threw the small door ways of ships. But I also close my manifold so we both have our own tanks. BUT open water I do run a Oct just because we are in the open and don't need to worry about going threw small places
Note I also do have 2 air pressure readouts for said reason
Glad this works for you and your diving styles.
I totally agree with you Alec. Even if a under-stress diver pull your primary source out of you mouth you could pick your second stage to yourself. That’s the most commonly configuration among recreational divers. The problem rises when the cool-tech-diver shows up with a different config that not everybody ever head of.
I just love your videos and I always find your opinions very pertinent and with a lot of good sense.
Keep up the tech tips videos!
Bests from Brazil.
Thanks for your comments and support Fabio.
Remember, as many seem to not realize, that these are just my opinions. I'm not trying to change minds - just open them.
Take care.
Alec
Most agencies teach to donate the primary reg and you grab your secondary for you.
Not most as this is still the PADI standard which is 70% of rec divers. Tec divers do primary donation but it's not widely used by the recreational diver.
A
I did my SSI OWD, this year in August and was taught both techniques: donating my Primar, as well as my secondary, dependent on the very teacher I was diving with during that particular dive.
So, to me it seems there is some confusion about what is the correct standard procedure for an out of gas situation for recreational divers and the argument, that a panicked diver out of gas would grab your primary probably anyways, might be one of the reasons.
It all depends on who you’re diving with. As long as you and your buddy agree on a procedure BEFORE it happens, it’s all good.
If your dive buddy is going sidemount, they will be switching regulators throughout the dive. So, sometimes the “primary” will be long hose and sometimes it will be short hose,
I tell my partner to give me the out of air sign if they can, if not, just rip the regulator from my mouth, I’ll go to my alternative air source.
An overlooked advantage to sidemount diving is that you are constantly switching regulators. So, you become much more comfortable with the physical process of doing it.
A backmount diver REALLY needs to practice out of air skills because this is the only time they EVER switch regulators.
Every single diver everywhere should be taught on a backplate and wing with long hose configuration from day 1! The only reason divers are taught on the traditional setup is because it's easier and cheaper for the dive center. The traditional setup has 0 benefits for the actual diver being trained
Easy and cheap are two factors but taking a new diver and saying this 'is the way' does not benefit the majority of divers. Example is taking a new driver, putting them in a Tesla Model S Plaid and saying this is all you need, its super fast, expensive and scarry for some who never drove before. The key reason all agencies teach the standard method is to let new divers gain experience and skill and progress at a comfortable pace. Then branch into the speciality they like, cave, photography etc. If you have never instructed new divers, they you have not seen the sometimes fear of this new experience so slow and easy gets them to be safe and fun divers. If b/p and long hose is you love, enjoy and share but its not for everyone otherwise it would be mention in new diver training. Thank for watching and commenting Erik.
Wings are not for everyone, every system has pro's and con. Long hose? Well that's just a stupid, dangerous way, and the only reason that fad is still here is that out of air situation are extremely rare.
@@bullsharkreef Which divers exactly cannot dive with a wing? What is stupid and dangerous about using a long hose?
OOA situations are far from rare, especially to new divers that don't know how to swim and not taking safety protocols seriously.
@@mariosx12I did not say "cannot", I said "it's not for everyone". For example, diver who travel a lot, a backplate is heavy compared to a vest type BCD. Backplate also require a lot of adjustments, both for fitting and for trim, which a lot of divers don't want to bother with. And for a lot of divers, a vest type is just more comfortable, and convenient.
As to long hose, the scenario you describe is EXACTLY the one where you should not use a long hose, ie around new, inexperienced divers. An inexperienced out of air diver will panic, and forcefully grab the first thing he sees that looks like something he might pull air from. If it's a regular octo, because it's yellow and placed where it is easily visible, no problem, he/she grabs it and breath from it, sometime even before you're even aware that he/she is out of air, and you are both safe. If the panicking diver cannot see an octo, because you don't have one, he'll grab your main one and pull on it, which is twisted around your neck on top of it, and now you are both in trouble. Fantastically bad idea.
@@bullsharkreef Apologies for misunderstanding your comment when it comes to the "cannot". I personally bring my steel backplate everywhere I go, but I can see how that might be suboptimal for some travelers. I don't think I can give you the point for adjustment. You don't need to spend more than an hour only once to adjust your harness for life. When it comes to what is more comfortable, I would agree with that point if they had tried once in BP/W. I have never seen a single diver prefering going back to a jacket after they have tried once a BP. And that is not a valid point of yours to the original comment, because I know more divers switching to BP/W than to jackets. Thus, indeed it would be good if all divers had the option to choose between jacket or BP/W after they spent 10 minutes in to both.
Well, I cannot disagree more when it comes to safety in such case. The first thing that such a diver will see is my primary that I have extended already to one arm distance from all the other equipment, meanwhile I would have switched to my necklace already. Even in your scenario, if I, as a diver, I have no awareness of my environment and somebody pulls my primary:
1) Switching to my necklace is trivial and intuitive. You can even do it without using a hand with proper adjustments.
2) In the worst case that you drink some water, you just caugh, worst case burp, and you switch to your necklace. (It has happened 3 times to me)
3) I am not sure how familiar you are about the wiring of the wrong hose, but if somebody pulls my primary it's being deployed at one arm distance automatically, either by slightly moving my head downwards, or by forcefully ruining my trim towards negative, which I cannot see how much of a problem it can be.
Shall we discuss issues with octo? Cool, let's go:
1) Short hose that do not allow divers to stay in trim, and they are forced staying very close, making buoyancy control more difficult.
2) The octo, especially for inexperienced divers, could have dirt due to drugging at the floor, or even marine life (small craps). Leading the already out of air panicked diver to panic even more. Also it might not even be secure, but taggling from a distance from the diver (you insistead on the divers being inexperienced, right?).
3) Relies on the OOA stressed diver to perform rational actions (they were taught once), in order to locate and use the regulator, instead on the more rational and aware buddy.
I am currently a recreational diver with less than 60-70 dives and often, with my buddies, we perform air sharing drills for fun at 100 feet without even feeling we are less safe. I have yet to meet divers diving with octo performing or agree to performing S-drills without sitting on their knees at the bottom, exactly because they are not feeling safe. They are pretty much correct, because it's extremely challenging to keep control while you forced to be face to face due to a short hose with your buddy, and uncontrolled ascent is a risk when you have 2 people hyperventilating and not have the proper room to make adjustments.
P/S:
A) I don't mind people preferring jackets and octos over long hose and BP/W. I take some issue when they rationalize it in the process of completely misrepresenting a pretty solid and intuitive system. I don't take an issue as the "scuba police", it's just sad to have to resort to "you twist your long hose around your neck"-like comments. I firmly believe that if people were trained in both systems there woudln't be a debate at all.
B) Have performed, or are you performing often air sharing drills during your dives with octo? You haven't noticed any of these issues?
Simplicity is better when majority of ppl diving recreational can do and understand something quickly to react.. I still don't understand why I want to put something wrap around my neck make me more uncomfortable and can squeeze my own neck if something just magically happened.
Many choose it for very practical dive profile reasons. I'm here to educate and entertain, not convert anyone.
Thanks for watching
Alec
To be clear, the hose isn't really wrapped all the way around your neck. It simply passes around the back of your neck for stability. Since you're not wearing a snorkel attached to your mask with a bungee'd alternate regulator, if someone grabs the regulator that's on the long hose (and is in your mouth), the hose will naturally pass over top of your head and come free (if it hangs a little at all, a quick nod of the head and it's free. I find the long (long-er - I use a 5ft primary hose instead of the tech 7ft) hose to be more comfortable since the hose is supported as it goes across my chest and the back of my neck - a "loose" short hose tends to pull my head to the side and increases my jaw fatigue.
It sounds really odd, but if you ever have a chance to safely give it a try in the pool, it's worth seeing how it really works. I much prefer it now over the more traditional setup.
Paul Wake, 🙄. Alec tries to show how visible the octo is on his chest strap. Yet diving he'd be horizontal, not vertical. Divers a little above him wouldn't see the octo. Nor, very well, those in front. So his visual point, standing facing the camera square on, is misrepresentative. Adding to the list of miss representations in this video. Had nothing to do with videos about tanks, regs, etc. I've liked many of his videos. This one, and its predecessor, are regrettable. It is also rare to see the octo placed so high and right under the chin as he has it on the chest strap. I have more commonly seen it placed on the right chest D ring or on the right hip level pocket of the BC, including in Alec's prior videos. But those spots would not have been as illustrative of the point he is trying to make.
Yeah, that's a good point.
I have seen "standard" octos clipped to the hip, under the neck, onto the shoulder harness, in the BC pocket, as well as dragging behind the diver. A necklaced backup is always in the same place. I will never be convinced that the standard configuration is safer.
Sorry, as you might expect, I don't "see" your point at all.
The standard octo should be centered in the chest or at least in the chin, left/right triangle where it can be easily seen and detached. Both the 2nd stage AND the hose should be a bright color so it can be spotted from above or behind too regardless of the donor's attitude in the water.
I have yet to see a long hose set-up that in any way makes it clear to either diver which reg is to be used. Nor are either regs, primary or secondary, visible. A black second, black hose on a black BCD and black suit are pretty much invisible. Swimming up to a long hose donor, the OOA diver is completely at the mercy of the donor to sort things out. With the standard set-up, the OOA diver can save himself with no help from the donor particularly without having the donor risk his own safety by giving up his air.
If you are going to apply certain criteria to support your argument in favor of the long hose i.e. visibility, you must apply the same criteria when describing the standard octo. If you like, I can demonstrate both configurations again and I will stand in a dozen different ways, facing a doze different directions (anything other than standing on my head) and we will see which configuration is easy to see and easier to deploy.
While divers may attach the octopus differently, the basic criteria always apply - brightly colored 2nd and hose, centered in front and easy to deploy. My personal opinion is that none of these criteria are met by the long hose set-ups I have seen.
Alec
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter I have a yellow long hose. It's pretty visible to any other diver.
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter You're comparing to and advocating TAKE of the backup, which few agencies advocate, except BSAC. So visibility is central in YOUR scenario. Most agencies advocate DONATE, with take as only a fallback. Visibility helps the fallback if reg location varies. In PRIMARY donate the location of both regulators is know, so extra visibility adds little, but can be added. But you knew all this already. In comparing options it is important to represent the factors involved accurately, otherwise we are doing a disservice to divers trying to learn and make informed decisions for themselves.
On the donor being without a reg for a few seconds: regulator remove/replace/recovery/exchange are skills to be mastered to a "reasonably comfortable, fluid, and repeatable manner" before progressing past OW pool sessions, according to Padi. Given that, it is surprising that you, with decades of experience, would say this in response to twoknife below: "Removing my primary from my mouth is risky at any time. At the moment my buddy runs out of air, sorry, it's not going to happen if I can help it!"
If removing a reg is so risky, why do we expect OW divers to master it before they progress out of the pool. Or perform a simple underwater step of ensuring their backup works properly. Or encourage them to regularly do a practice air share while hanging out at a safety top. It seems the standards expect that swapping between regulators is an expected part of normal diving and not a thing to be avoided out of apprehension of a high risk. It seems as if you are overstating this risk. Or are focused on students that were not trained properly, to simply open water standards.
You mention easy to deploy as a criteria. This is an area where primary donate excels. Deploying my primary is very fast, it is in my mouth. No fumbling involved in actively getting a reg to the OOA diver. Switching to my backup is very fast, it is always right under my chin. No detachment involved, I just move it up to my mouth. It should take less than 5 seconds to put it in. More likely 2 seconds after I reach for it. But I just had air, the other diver did not.
Primary donate also has the advantage of making the diver a bit more tidy, thus less risk of snagging their reg hose on part of the landscape. It is called the 'streamlined openwater setup' with a 40 inch primary hose. The primary is tucked under the arm, the backup is short and held under the neck. All out of the way and tidy.
Divers should evaluate how comfortable they are with the different options. With the proper facts and explanations. Not inaccurate ones and hyperbole.
I think time has passed you by on this subject.
Great video and very informative... I'm new at diving.I had a very good Friend and Trainer (30+ years),Who spent a lot of one on one time teaching Me.The more You know the better off You are...Thanks for Putting Your time' effort and knowledge into these...Kevin also...
I would argue the long hose is no different than someone diving an integrated octo/inflator. Primary donate no matter the environment ensures the ooa diver is receiving a working, breathable gas. As someone who learned on, dives on, and teaches on primary donate I wouldn't teach anything else except as more than a briefing.
Hello Alec. I have a question for you.... Why not use the long hose on the safe second?. This way if a diver runs out of air, he is already trained on it's deployment and there will be enough hose where he wont be right on top of you, and if he is behind you (as in a tight space like cave diving) they can reach up behind you and secure the safe second by themselves. That is what I think would make the most sense.
I've heard that the idea of primary donate (as opposed to alternate donate) is that the primary is proven to be currently working. So the diver in distress is guaranteed to get air. The calm donor diver has a fresh lungful of air in case there is a problem with the alternate.
Add to that the need for the donated stage to be on a long hose in order to swim single-file through tight spaces and you get the long hose primary.
Do stages fail shut halfway through dives? Not often, but I've heard of the hose rubber degrading and blocking the airflow. So tecs prepare for the worst case scenarios.
Hose routing would be problimatic
@@TheLoosenit2 Not really. It just needs to be clipped off with a breakaway.
kostainseattle unfortunately doing that would create other problems. Now you have several loops of coiled hose at your side which becomes an entanglement hazard and you have introduced additional buckles that are considered failure points in many tech diving circles. In this case I agree with Alec that purely rec divers, with no intent to pursue tec diving, should stick to standard setups and tech divers who are trained and rec divers pursuing tech diving use primary donate. The hogarthian/DIR style of diving is more than just an equipment configuration, it is a philosophy that has developed based on study of accidents and incidents, you are unlikely to convince that community to adopt the modified setup being asked about.
@@TheLoosenit2 no you don't. The hose still comes around the neck and then is clipped off.
I can understand your point about the long hose but I would like to disagree about some assumptions. Yes the 7 foot long hose is most times to long but you could use a 5 foot long hose and would have a good system for "normal" dives.
Yes you're right the normal configuration is easy to use but I would say that depends on the mindset. As a diver I think we all should be able to use our equipment well enough and be able to react calm in an out of air szenario. With an long hose configuration I think there are some benefits. I can give my buddy some leash if needed and I like it to have some space between myself and my buddy if we continue the dive to the entrance. I think this is more a question about diving philosophy and I think I as an cold water diver may just like to do my dives in another style.
I totally agree with you sir. Thank you for sharing your thoughts all these while. Your videos were great for different level of divers. Please keep sharing.
Take a Rescue course or better work as a DM, you will see how wrong he is.
Don't forget if a panic diver come take your long hose reg out of mouth and you did not see him coming..you are now choking. For me long hose is for experience tech diver that dive with other experience teck diver.
Divers generally follow their training so if trained to go for the safe second, they generally will pull it first giving you a moment to grab them and get control. Thanks for watching Robert.
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter This is the concern I have with teaching long hose/primary donate in PW courses. I know at least one agency does this. I really don't want less experienced divers to be trained that my primary regulator is their emergency option. If the diver panics, he may grab the reg from my mouth anyway, but there is not reason to TRAIN him that way. This risks turning one panicked diver into two.
I am using a long hose since day 1. I can hardly see what is complicated and not intuitive about it to require a lot of experience...
As for this exreme example I have 4 points from my experience:
1) Not recording the air of their buddies, not noticing how they behave and not paying attention to what is happening in front of you makes someone a horrible buddy, so if they end up choking they are partially to blame.
2) Actually it's MUCH easier to remove the primary reg of a standard octo than the long hose (big loop from the tank to the secondary reg VS streamlined long hose secured in the harness and wrapped around the back of the neck secured by the tank). This is a problem that mostly people not diving long hose will face, and I am pretty confident that a panic diver will pull your primary reg which is esier than if they are coming from your back. Otherwise I cannot see how you cannot spot them (1).
3) Chocking and drinking water while scuba is not an issue thanks to our reflexes. It has happened to me at least 2-3 times, and I just coughed, burped and went back to breathing.
4) If you lose your reg in a long hose configuration you can switch in less than a second to the necklace, without even the need to use your hands, just by moving your head 2 inches. What's the procedure for switching to your octo in the same case? I prefer my necklace.
I am a rec diver with less than 70 dives. I have been in real OOA situation 3 times in the past, 2 unexpectedly as the donor, and one as the receiver in a controlled situation. It's trivial for all people I know diving a long hose to donate air in a safe way, something we practice for fun often with my buddies. If it's so much more complicated, I cannot understand why most OW divers diving octo I have spoke with are not feeling comfortable practicing OOA drills. Well I could see myslef having also some fear, if I could not do it in a controlled way and I had to come in contact with the other diver ruining our trim and buoyancy, with little room for error due to the much shorter hose. I have simulate for fun OOA situations with some more exprerienced friends diving octo (to prove the same point after we argued) and needless to say that they killed me in all times, and I had to wait without a reg for up to 10 seconds, until I switched back to my necklace, while they were searching with their hands for their octo.
I have an obvious opinion regarding which configuration an overall better system in most cases, but the ways sometimes people rationalize using an octo instead of a long hose are interesting. Preference doesn't need any justification, but rationalizing is actually counter productive for the entire community.
You won't choke. You put your head down and it will slide right over your head. It's not like it's wrapped around your neck multiple times. Besides, being proper trained should mean that I'll know if my buddy is OOA way before he or she can surprise me by pulling out my reg uncontrolled.
@@robdahlgren0506 Long-time diver & divemaster here. I get what you are saying...I dove a long hose about 10 years, and am thinking about going back. I just found it more comfortable, among other reasons (less hose "pull".) However, my secondary is still on a necklace. Either way, it's there and very accessible. PADI and others talk of keeping it in the "golden triangle", but I see a disturbing number of (mostly younger) divers kinking the octopus hose up to push it through a D-ring. Necklace keeps it handy, without kinking the hose, whether or not you follow it with a long-hose setup. YMMV...
Why do divers that use the 'long hose' have to be such jerks about it?
Captain Swoop I live and let live man. Friendly long hose diver here
Historically, when something new appears, be it a product or a process, proponents tend to be a bit out spoken and sometimes a bit sensitive too.
I've seen it a dozen times in scuba alone.
Bailout bottles (now called pony bottles) were all the rage during the 60's and 70's. Proponents claimed that any diver who didn't use a bailout bottle was suicidal.
A BCD-mounted Safe Second is still with us despite it's obvious shortcomings but don't dare try to take it away from a diver who insists on using it.
Current arguments still rage over the use of the "better" DIN valve or High-capacity steel tanks.
Many of these have become more acceptable over time but generally they are outliers, reserved for divers who either like to be different or who have accepted the doctrine that accompanies them.
Like Capt Swoop, I've discovered the best (only?) approach is to smile and excuse yourself asap.
I almost guarantee that this comment itself will generate friction. Let's watch and see.
Alec
Absolutely agree with your points, thank you for the video!
One addition: many of my buddys lately started using long hose setups, and pretty much exclusively combine it with a very short secondary hose. Since we're usually cold water diving with two separate first stages, here's a scenario to think about:
Diver 1 runs out of air, diver 2 donates his primary. Due to the stressful situation and heavy breathing in cold water, and since the regulator on the long hose had already been in use up to the emergency, there's an increase probability of freezing. Should that happen, according to standard training, the two divers would now share the single remaining "good" regulator. But due to the extremely short secondary hose that everyone seems to be using nowadays, this is simply no longer possible. Too short for sharing...
Thanks for the feedback David.
A
Freezing can occur when the gas expands, it does not expand inside the hose, it expands in the regulators, that's why they have environmental sealing, radiator fins and other cold water specifics, and that's why you don't dive in cold water with warm water regulators. In fact, if your concern is that your buddy's sudden gulps of air might cause a freeze, then your first stage is twice as likely to freeze when your buddy start hoovering from your backup while you're breathing from your primary. With a long hose configuration, they'll start breathing first, then you'll take your normal breath of air from your backup.
@@UNgineering Why? There are 2 separate first stages. One attached to the primary, one to the backup.
The primary has been in use, it is therefore colder and closer to freezing. Now my buddy comes and uses it, and is breathing heavily due to the stressful situation. That's why the 1st stage on my primary is now much more likely to freeze than the backup one.
@@lazydave137 because now your 1st stage has to suddenly expand (reduce the pressure for) twice (or more) the amount of gas as before, that's why it's more likely to freeze than the 2nd stage. plus even if the 2nd stage freezes, it'll freeze in open (that's when the gas expands a lot), causing free flow, which would be annoying but very breathable.
@@UNgineering nobody dives in cold water with only one first stage. We all use two separate first stages. Every regulator has its own first stage!
Personally I've seen enough videos of panicked divers ripping the primary out of their buddies mouth to see that the long hose has its benefits from a safety standpoint. I totally agree that you need to train with a long hose or any specific equipment. Thanks for your insightful videos as always and I look forward for more great content.
Your welcome and thanks for watching.
A.