Pick Your Poison: A Few Quick Thoughts On The Denomination Issues Of Christianity.
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Today's episode is a reaction to Truth Unites as he explains that the "30,000 Christian denominations" talking point is false. I agree he is right, but he is also still very wrong. Let me explain.
Original Video by @TruthUnites - • 30,000 Denominations?
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Chapters:
0:00 Intro
0:45 The Clip From Truth Unites
1:27 I'm Guilty
2:02 But There's Still Too Many
2:51 The Catholic Article
6:16 But What About The Core Concepts?
7:00 Mutually Exclusive
7:52 Couldn't God Do Better?
11:04 There's Not One Truth
12:35 Final Thoughts
#christiandenominations #christiansects #mindshift #atheism #atheist #exchristian #christianity #christianityisconfusing - บันเทิง
Happy Saturday!
One point I would raise as pushback against this guy, by the way: I bet there are actually way, way more than 30000 existing perspectives on Christianity, even if they're not officially recognized "denominations." I would wager that among Catholics alone you would find hundreds of thousands if not millions of individual interpretations at odds with what you'd actually find in the Catechism or encyclicals. Are we only counting denominations based on some kind of written statement of faith, notwithstanding whether ANYONE actually believes EVERY aspect of that statement? Because that's ridiculous, to me, to count things no actual person believes and discount things actual people do believe.
What I guess I'm saying is that his claim that there are not that many denominations is exactly as baseless as the claim that there are that many.
EDIT: Also there absolutely are Catholic splinter denominations that still consider themselves Catholic, specifically ones that reject Vatican II and think of the Pope as a heretic, and thus that THEY are the Catholics and the Catholics aren't.
Hope you feel better soon
Do you have an episode that dives into Christianity from a political lens?
Jesus being the King of the Jews, undermining the emperor makes a lot of sense explaining why he was crucified. It also explains why the apostles were treated like a ragtag pack of rebels, because they were. It also explains why they had to retcon the resurrection in order to get nearby tribes to support their cause.
I don’t see a lot of content exploring this topic and would love to hear your take on it.
Great suggestion. Thank you
Get to feeling better we need a 100% Mindshift even tho 20% still enough to break these videos down!!!!
House churches just kill me. "None of the 30,000 options is quite right enough for me. I'll just make my own church. Nobody else has the understanding I do."
Ha! Hadn’t thought of it that way. Its a great point!
Yep and the same people who make those house churches call atheists "arrogant".
That's one way to think about it. A different way would be "all of those 30,000 denominations claim to be the only correct one. But logically, we as humans can't know what the correct one is. So I want to create a space where we have the freedom to acknowledge we're fallible and imperfect and don't know the absolute truth and help each other with our individual understandings. Maybe we can make some progress together."
@@DoloresLehmannand then the outcome is the same. “I’m in direct communication with a deity that creates universes and delegates rules for how humans should live. I also interpret it’s opinions & grasp it’s thought patterns correctly, every time. It doesn’t misspeak when it speaks through me.“
@@Ichabod_Jericho No, not necessarily. It can also be: "I know I'll never grasp the truth to its whole extent. I know I'll never fully understand God. But I want to follow the truth wherever it leads me, and I want other people to share this road with me, while being fully aware that my personal opinions and interpretations could be wrong at any moment, as well as theirs. That's why we'll constantly encourage one another to make progress, to learn, to unveil as much of the truth as we can."
I have engaged in debates with multiple christians at the same time. In very short order, I was no longer the focus of the debate! They were so busy fighting themselves that they forgot that I was there.
Yes i too have seen this happen quite a bit.
CARM. Matt Slick's discussion board is hilarious for that.
That’s actually pretty funny! I wish I could have been there and watch with popcorn lol
I remember an Irish comedian describing Catholicism as the most "sticky" religion
"I could go and join ISIS, and they would just consider me a bad Catholic"
😂😂😂
Lol!
Yep. I was a Catholic for several years as a young child. Was baptized, attended catechism, had my first communion.
When my mother dated a guy that would eventually become my step father, we both got saved and I was raised in a fairly fundamentalist Southern Baptist home.
My mom's family weren't happy, but, hey, we'd both been baptized Catholics. And in theological discussions with Catholic friends I was asked if I'd been baptized as a Catholic. That fact excused me in their minds. I wasn't just a Protestant, I was a lapsed or oddball Catholic in their mind. My Catholic baptism made me theologically acceptable to them.
As an aside, one of my oldest friends, who is a devout Catholic, after I'd told him I was no longer a believer encouraged me to just take a pause from my belief, not just walk away completely.
I get his heartfelt thought, but, that's not how this works. 😕
Ha! love it, that is good.
@@_S0me__0ne If you consciously made the decision to leave the Catholic Faith, as it is taught and practiced by the Church, we consider you at least an apostate, and say you should repent, confess and go back to full communion with the Church, otherwise your soul is still in danger of judgement and hell. "Once saved always saved" is not an orthodox doctrine of Christianity, it has never been, and it never will be. It is a false doctrine made by heretical theologians.
I know there are some Catholics who are not going to say that, but there it is, the Catholic position. And if you're wondering why you should trust the Church, it is because it is the one Church that was made by Christ and His Apostles. This is a historical and objective fact. Not the baptist church, which was made by random people.
I've heard that atheists in Ireland were asked during the Troubles whether it was the Catholic or the Protestant god they weren't believing in.
"I think there's 9k!"
"Well I think there's 30k!"
"Well I think it's really hard to find the forest with all these goddamn trees in the way!"
Ha!
We often forget that Catholicism was itself a sect - one of many interpretations that was only successful because it a) adopted many of the aspects and appearances of Roman government to give it more legitimacy and b) was able to declare the other rivals to be heresy at an early stage. One of the reasons I love the work of Richard Carrier so much is he writes a lot about the different perspectives in the first couple of centuries. Stuff I wasn’t made aware of at any of the 3 catholic schools I went to as a child.
great points!
Wow! Thank you! I didn’t know that! As I got older my mom married a catholic, and he tried putting me in conversion classes! While I’m being preached to by my southern babtist pastor grandfather!
The Roman Church isn't even the original, it split off of Orthodoxy because it couldn't get the other patriarchs to agree they should be the ultimate authority ( that and both sides were drifting apart pretty much from the get-go)
How all Religions and Denominations sound to me:
"No, no, your presents are all from your Parents! But my presents came from Santa, I know it!"
Lol! Great comparison
As an athiest I find the multiple denominations comical. But I am curious. Has anyone speculated on how the different denominations get segregated in heaven? Do they redline neighborhoods? Who are the unlucky Protestants that have to neighbor next to the Eastern Orthodox? Or is everyone made to wear badges on their lapel, signifying their denomination? This sounds dystopian.
Lol, love this. I love any example that forces the logic to go forward and show the absurdity at a new level.
Speaking as an ex born again Christian, we thought Catholics were no better than pagans.
They didn’t even have the balls to send people to hell. Purgatory… Hell, with training wheels.
@@Phoennix3 "There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church." - Catechism of the Catholic Church
I've used 1 Corinthians 3:15 to explain purgatory, and I can assure you that Catholics believe in hell.
@@pondboy3682well I guess for those who are extremely evil I guess
@miguelatkinson Catholics basically have a love for Matthew like Protestants have for Paul. In Matthew, Jesus names Simon as Peter, the rock upon which he will build his church (papal authority, baby!), and he separates the believers like sheep and goats based on works!
More specifically, Catholics do distinguish between venial and mortal sins. Put simply, a venial sin is falling short of the mark. A mortal sin is aiming at the wrong targets. Most Catholic teens who learned about their faith at all are scared to death that they'll go to hell for sexual mortal sins.
Just within my own family we have three different denominations…each believing their brand is the “true” brand. And of course praying that the other ones see the error of their thinking and come to the truth 😂 Hope you feel better and you don’t burn yourself out making all of this wonderful content!
Lol oh man. Hadnt really considered multi denom families before. Thats a bit on the nose, i would think. And thank you!
One is Trinitarian, the other is bianitarian( 2 person's);the third, Unitarian?
Even Paul warned against listening to other gospels, corrected Cephus to his face, etc. Christianity was already divided before the first page of the New Testament was written!
Thats true!
Good point!
Well put!!!
As a former Catholic, I can confirm that there isn't even a common line between parishes in my city lol. There are the hardcore trads who think that our current pope is basically an agent of Satan, there are the ultra-liberal liberation theology guys who'll even fly rainbow flags during pride month, there are the 20 something rites who are in communion with Rome and my conservative student chaplaincy that I used to attend. It's such a mess. I am so happy to have left all that confusion and fear behind. I really hope you'll be making more and more Catholic content as time goes on. Thank you for the video and I hope your health quickly improves again!
Thanks so much for that context. Its good to hear from the horses mouth on this one.
@@MindShift-Brandon Protestant churches surely have their quarrels, infighting and power plays, but if you knew the kind of political games that go on in the Catholic Church, it would be like comparing a puddle to an ocean in terms of magnitude. For instance, it has been estimated (at least from memory of an article I read on that subject) that the German RCC has more than 400 billion euros in assets, or the Vatican/Holy See is also its own state (only religion in the world that has that), or even the fact that the order of malta is also a sovereign body that can issue its own passports, stamps and currency (if they wanted). The Catholic Church really is at a different level in terms of politics.
Thats just fascinating to me. I want to do a deep dive.
So basically the Catholic Church is a collection of sects, cults, and denominations inside a super-denomination.
No, while there are disagreements in the Church, official Church teaching is clear. It’s an unfortunate situation but some of these priests are heretics. One must accept all dogmas of Church not just the ones they like. For example priests who teach that homosexuality is not a sin are very wrong. So even if some priests and bishops are making untrue statements the official teaching is still clear. It is confusing but we must ask God to not let us be swayed by the confusion as it is the work of the devil.
Very well put.
I both chuckled and cringed at the response "But those denominations are something we disagree with so much that we refuse to call them Christians".
Rather than refuting the issue, they simply illustrate it in action.
Exactly! I couldn’t believe the irony.
The multiple Christian sects was one of the many factors that drove me to become an atheist.
Yes also for me
@@MindShift-Brandon me too.
Spot on Brandon! The number of denominations is arbitrary, when the real problem is that there are any denominations at all. God obviously can’t communicate the same truth to everyone lol.
Precisely! Too many is the issue
You can extrapolate that to different religions as well. It would be clear if god were real. No assertions, claims, arguments,... by apologists needed. Just clear to everybody around the globe.
Before I deconstructed I was realizing that every Christian I met had their own interpretation of Christianity and who was I to tell them that they were wrong. Each person is unique with different genetics and different backgrounds. The Bible is so open to interpretation.
Yes. Everyone has made it their own for sure.
The "couldn't god do better" section made me chuckle - that back and forth was brilliant!
Lol. Got just a tad carried away. Ha
@@MindShift-Brandon Your passion for the topic is quite obvious. I envision some breaks in the edited vid where you have to stop and take a breath to get a better hold of the emotion...
This makes me think of Joan of Arc being questioned by religious men in the courts. And they wanted to get her. So they asked her which pope do you follow?
Her clever answer was but isn't there only one? She was so smart that the only way they were able to legally kill her was to steal her clothes and either force her to walk around naked or to put on men's attire which was illegal and so she chose to put on the men's clothes which was illegal so that's why they actually burned her at the stake. I highly recommend Mark Twain's Joan of Arc❤
I will check it out!
I bring up the 45000 denominations all the time to support my assertion that Christianity is make-believe. Plus all the different ways they go about practicing their denominations.
If they want to fact check me on the 45000, they can go right ahead. It will make them do some research.
You nailed my thoughts exactly. Fantastic video! 🤘
Right!. Like i said. Tell me the number you’re comfortable with and if its not one, the problem still remains.
@@MindShift-Brandon I totally agree about a god for every believer. They create it in their imagination.
Make-believe with imaginary characters. It's so easy to point that out, it baffles me how this is something humanity hasn't gotten rid of centuries ago.
There's a great video addressing it, you could try searching it. It's probably a lot less than 45,000 and a lot of them probably do agree on most things. And sometimes denominations get started or merge for other reasons. There is a decent amount though.
It's like getting upset because someone said there are 20,000 political affiliations. Like, you can debate that number, but the real answer is that every single person has their own political views and the distinction is meaningless.
Great comparison
Bingo! I've said for a while as an argument against Christianity: One person's exegesis is another eisigesis.
My follow on to that used to be: And thousands of denominations are sure they can't be wrong.
I may tweak it a little, but my overarching premise is similar to yours.
I was trying to find a way to succinctly sum it up in a simple, solid quotable two liner.
If its more than one, your religion should be done. Lol
I think the best way to approach the criticism of the numerous interpretations of what is generally presented as the (singular) truth is by simply saying "multiple denominations" and avoid citing a specific number that will likely be inaccurate as well as highly inflated due to biases.
As I've said many times, Brandon does a very good job of looking at his own words critically and admits when he should say or present something differently. There needs to be more humility like this from both sides of the religious isle.
" there are only two denominations: mine and the wrong denomination ! " every christian
Ha. Exactly
With 2 or more denominations that have opposite doctrines is more than enough!
Yes!
a great benefit of these shorts is how much information you can pack into them and still be comprehensive. Good topic to cover and great explanation. Time to go now, but I"ll re-watch later to better understand your nuance.
Thanks, David! Appreciate you being here, man.
Thank you for your refreshing honesty Brandon and I agree that we need to be careful when sharing dubious statistics. Regarding Catholics, my oldest son is a Catholic and he recently shared with me that he stopped attending the local Catholic church because he disagreed with the local priest's more liberal views regarding several social issues. When I asked him about differences between Jesuit theology and other Catholic orders he quickly dismissed Jesuit's saying, "they shouldn't even be considered real Catholics". My son is a new convert to Catholicism and is quite strident in his views, but it illustrates the fact that even within a monolith like the Catholic church there are many many competing ideas. So how many versions of Christianity are there really? Do not many Christian individuals create their own version by picking and choosing the ideas and concepts they find appealing while ignoring others?
Thank you and thanks for that real time example. Im sure thats a really rough spot with you and your son. Must be very difficult. But the point is solid, 0 agreement!
The same thing happens in the Orthodox Church, I was more conservative when I was Orthodox than my priest was.
May God continue to guide your son. I’d encourage him to find a reverent Novus Ordo Mass or a Traditional Latin Mass. While some priests disagree with official Church teaching, the teaching still remains. One must accept all dogmas of the Church or they are a heretic. This may be purification and so we must trust God and pray for his guidance. No doubt these are confusing times.
Dómine Jesu, dimitte nobis débita nostra, salva nos ab igne inferni, perduc in caelum omnes ánimas, praesertim eas, quae misericórdiae tuae máxime indigent. 🙏
@@juliabriggs1141so I guess protestants are all heretics then
Did He guide Torquemada, and Pope Paul III, too - however?
Those were 'confusing times' (as was the blood libel, and slave trade, in Christendom, too) - and, we may not, be able, to afford many more, 'confusing times' on that scale. Or the Thirty Years War.
Like Eve got dumped into, badly prepared - it seems?
Just a thought.@@juliabriggs1141
Hi Brandon, I've joined this channel upon your suggestion (commented previously about Jordan Peterson and you've replied, thanks). Love your content and I think you deserve to make it big. It would be interesting to hear you debate someone like William Knowland (Knowland Knows) who is a Catholic and also a voracious reader of the classics (he was a teacher at Eton, England, before getting kicked out for making a video on patriarchy that was perceived as rather regressive. Anyway, I will have a lot more to say, I'm sure... thanks again for your lucid and well-crafted arguments!
so glad yo see you over here! thanks again for your suggestions and insight and also the very kind encouragement! More to come!
Thank you for this - a very level-headed examination. I spent most of my time living in England working for ecumenical understanding (as a layman), and ended up with a partnership agreement between all the churches in the villages around me: Methodist (my own), Baptist, Anglican, Roman Catholic, house church, all sorts. Every single one of them was onside. The only thing that divided us was that the Catholic Church wasn't allowed to share Mass with non-Catholics, but we got around that by having two lines. The church itself was ok with sharing, but wasn't allowed to by the Catholic hierarchy. Now I'm living in Canada (Montreal first, now Ontario) and finding that there are few connections between churches - they all work independently. So now I have a new task... :o) I'm very much of the view expressed in C.S.Lewis' Screwtape Letters, that we should attend the local church rather than go shopping around for one that fits our own individual views. That we should be rubbing shoulders with people who may disagree with us, and we should be prepared to talk about why we each feel and believe slightly differently. And we should be open to learn from each other.
Its a lovely approach to a not so lovely problem. I just dont understand trying to keep it all together in the first place though
@@MindShift-Brandon My reason for "trying to keep it all together" is that the loudest voices win, and there are plenty of very loud, discordant voices in christianity which give those outside the church a very strange idea of what christianity is. In particular, the two big problems I come across regularly are YEC (Young Earth Creationism) and abortion. (Though don't get me started on homophobia... :o)
YEC because in order to hold that view you have to ignore or discredit the whole of science. And plenty of people try to do that, which means that they are turning their backs on factual knowledge and opting for deliberate, intentional ignorance. Their only source of information then becomes the Bible, which they believe is factual, inerrant, unchanging, and not to be questioned. You can imagine how that comes across to someone keen on science, keen on questioning, keen on trying to falsify, and only accepting truths as valid if they can't find fault with them.
Abortion, because the "pro-life" view is usually associated with that same, closed mindset that the Bible speaks against it (it doesn't) and shouldn't be questioned, and it has become so closely associated (in America in particular) with right-wing politics. That means that it is used as a tool for turning politics into a path towards overturning democracy and creating a theocracy. Again, to those outside the church, that is unthinkable.
When I've discussed such topics online or face-to-face with people who are keen on YEC and abortion, the overwhelming response is to try to push their interpretation of the Bible down my throat, tell me it is not to be questioned, and telling me I'm not a "real christian" if I do question their interpretation. I've even had that view from my own Baptist Pastor, who put it more gently, claiming I was "refusing to accept Biblical authority" about abortion, even though he could not point me towards where the Bible mentioned it other than "thou shalt not kill".
So I am concerned at the views that have been expressed to me by friends outside the church looking in, describing it as threatening democracy and forcing an ignorant anti-science agenda. And most times I have to say I agree with them. I am often embarrassed to own up to being a christian while these views are so prevalent and so well-founded. I want Christ's inclusive, loving, accepting, voice to be the one that people hear, from a church that is united and focused on Christ alone, and that has no place for ignorance, bigotry and hatred.
I always like to say that there are as many denominations as there are christians, but the fact that there are more than one is still a problem, since they can all justify their version with the bible
Exactamundo!
Damn! If I had known you were sick I would have started a prayer chain. Bahahahahahahahahaaaa! Thanks for this!
LMFAO
@@OublietteTight Well, thanks! With Christians I never know whether to LMFAO or cry or scream!
@@josephcollins6033
Hedge your bets? Do all three and carry a can of mace? Hehe
@@OublietteTight Bahahahahahahahaaa! That sounds good!
@josephcollins6033
Does anyone have bible repellent? Needs to be stronger than bear spray. At least with bears, if you stand your ground they usual give up and leave. Christians...? Yeah, um not likely that they back off. Hehe.
Again, spot on, Brandon, especially the last minute 👍. There are so many elephants in the room, one can have a field day from just about any perspective (pardon the mixed metaphors).
ha, i am a big fan of mixed metaphors and thank you!
I hope you feel better❤
Thanks, Sandi!
even the one single denomination, of say roman catholic, has changed their doctrines markedly over time.
should really count these as separate.
Great point!
As a Catholic I was taught that Jesus promised to be with his church and guide it until the end of time. This was the reason He sent the Holy Spirit. He also said that the gates of hell would not prevail against the church. This later became the basis for the doctrine of Papal Infallibility, that the Pope, when making a definitive statement on faith and morals, cannot err, because he is guided by the Holy Spirit.
I will let you decide based on the historical record whether this claim ought to be taken seriously. However, my understanding of the Protestant Reformation is that it came about because the Catholic Church went off the rails so far doctrinally speaking that basically very little could be salvaged. For some reason the Bible itself escaped this "contamination" although some books were eliminated from the Old Testament. Unfortunately it seems that the only thing that the reformers could agree upon is that the Catholic Church was wrong and that a restart was needed. But what should this look like? Everyone had different ideas. Eventually it came down to the more radical groups jettisoning everything BUT the Bible, ignoring the fact that the Bible as we know it today is basically a product of the 3rd-4th century church, not the first century. The New Testament did not exist in the first century, nor even in the second. Different churches had different scriptures that they were passing around. (I think you can see that this not-agreeing thing goes way, way, way back in Christian history!). So, in order to get everyone on the same page, the Church leaders called a council to decide what books should constitute the Bible. It is funny how many Evangelicals and Fundamentalists will reject just about everything else that those early Church councils decided except for the Bible and the doctrine of the Trinity, yet claim that they are following the example of the true first-century Christians. (I've noticed that these churches avoid teaching church history like the plague, or if they do, they skip right to the 16th century as if nothing noteworthy happened between the 1st and the 16th.)
Anyway to get to my point. The question I have as an agnostic is this: IF Jesus is God, and IF he promised to be with his church until the end of time, teaching them all things by way of the Holy Spirit (who is also God), then how on earth did the Catholic Church become so corrupt that it is no longer the one true church founded by Christ? I'm not sure Protestants have thought that one over. If the true church no longer exists, then what about Jesus' promise to it? And what does that make of Jesus' claim to be God? (And before anyone brings up Joseph Smith and the Latter-Day Saints, they have the same problem in that they too claim the church abandoned the true teachings of Jesus.) It seems to me, looking at the historical record and then looking at what Jesus promised, that we have a problem here.
To think god couldn't protect the children that got abused in his own house is eye opening indeed .
Argument from the confusion of divine messages. Great presentation.
"Religions are INTERNALLY DIVERSE. All religions have individual people with different interpretation of their religion"
- Andrew Henry (Religion For Breakfast)
If you ask me, the very basic common split into Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox churches already says a lot about how true and right christian religion really is.
Exactly. Dont need 30,000 to show the mess
They can't all be right. But they can all be wrong.
Christians have been fighting with each other since...
33CE...ish...
❤ Video.
Be well, take care of you 💗
Great point, and thanks!
I hail from a hopelessly Catholic country and if the RCC were to give our country people a fraction of the taxes our ancestors paid it throughout the centuries, we’d all be rich.
All this to say that when it comes to the historical record, Catholicism is not just pretty cathedrals: ask yourself how they were funded and you’ll immediately see that as interesting as theology may be, the temporal aspects probably outweigh it.
Also, it wasn’t just that people had no access to the bible. Access to education, as a whole, was in the hands of the RCC so the vast majority of the population was kept illiterate.
Great points!
You're the first channel I've seen addressing this guy!
So congratulations on that !
Oh cool. Just found his channel. I want to dig in more.
"Personal interpretation of scripture" is the single greatest trick the devil has played on the Church. 30,000 house churches later and we still haven't learned our lesson!🤦🏿♂️
I recently found your channel. Love what you're doing, and I'm sharing it with my friends. Keep up the good work!
Appreciate that so much! Thank you
Well said and good on you to correct yourself! Under an OmniCoherent God there would only be 1 denomination no excuses!
Another point I like to mention is Christians that gatekeep what's a primary issue and a secondary issue in regards to salvation. And I always remind them you don't get to determine who is and isn't a "true" Christian. We have no idea how important theology has to be in regards to salvation.
Thanks so much. Appreciate the comment
If there was one, it would probably be the Orthodox
I used to use the number of denominations line of argument. I've given it up and now use salvation. How many ways are the one true way to be saved by Christ? Of all the messages God would have, should have, made clear it is the manner of salvation.
For sure!
could never speak to the unity of the catholic church but i do recall that the church splintered off all the factions so in the immortal words of the Cathars "ahhhhhhhh ughhh," gurgle gurgle.
As someone whom never believed in any of this, even as a kid who was forced to go to church, I find your channel so fascinating. Your deep knowledge of Christianity and the fact that you were so deep into it make your commentary so much better. You are the perfect person to un-indoctrinate these people.
Appreciate that very much! I can only imagine what this is all like to an outsider perspective
It was definitely weird as a kid. I couldn't wrap my head around everyone believing this stuff but being told Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy were made up. It all seemed like the same thing to me. Then of course I'd get gaslit when I questioned anything about it.
@toltmanns007 thanks for the kindness
Three things:
One, I actually think the 40,000 number (that's the one I've seen before) is definitely a little low.
Two, as best I can tell, the 40,000 number appears to have some from a Christian university. So this dude should take it up with them.
And three, to add to the Confusion of Christianity (which is a GREAT title) i was told that if you were Lutheran or Wesleyan or Episcopalian or what have you, you were still Christian and would go to heaven. Unless you were catholic, then you were in a heretical version of Christianity.
Thats interesting. I need to do some digging on all the data. And yes that third point is so insane to me although many have their own in and out groups that differ even from that. The judgement and confusion is high!
@@MindShift-Brandon
The article that I'd seen is called Christianity is Fragmented - Why? by Dr Todd Johnson and is published on/from Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary.
This is one of the things that has been bugging me so much! its like 20 isj different denominations in my city alone, and I dont live in a big city, and in norway that is supposed to be quite atheistic, cant even imagine how it is in places where christianity is more heavy represented. and who do you chose? its like playing whack a mole with your afterlife
I'm surprised this refutation or religion isn't more commonplace. As a 5 or 6 year old I became aware of the concepts of fiction and non-fiction and the existence of other religions, denominations and myths. Technically from that point I was an atheist.
There's a channel here on TH-cam called "ready to harvest" that covers all the differences between all the different dominations.
Still catching up, but saying *a million likes" will start irritating all of us. Just for a last time, A Million Likes. Sorry for what you went through to get to this point. Respect.
Appreciate that so much!
Yeah arguing about the exact number is just a method to avoid the issue
For sure!
Great topic today, I hope you feel better soon
Thank you much!
I recently deconstructed from the "church of Christ " after 30 years.
A denomination that clearly began with the Joseph Campbell movement in the 1800s.
However, I was taught and believed that the "pure" church of Christ has existed since Pentecost and never went away.
In fact, just me saying it's a denomination would lead into a whole argument since the church of Christ is the "one true church" that has always existed since Pentecost and therefore "not just another denomination".
So this tiny sect of "true Christians" have apparently been out there , worshiping in secret, despite a literal thousand years of a Catholic reign of terror on the planet as they tortured and executed "heretics".
I was forced to conclude & believe for 30 plus years that everyone that I knew and loved, every human being on the planet, that wasn't baptized by this tiny, tiny denomination was going to or already in hell.
I knew in my heart this religion was one step away from a cult, but I was convinced it was "the one true church".
Trying to count denominations is like trying to measure coastlines, it's not really possible. Methodologies differ so much the methodologies matter more than the actual answer. The answer is that there are definitely too many though lol.
Too many is the perfect answer
Good job on covering a very nuanced subject in a short video. I would lile to see someone do a more in depth analysis or even a series. Finding the real significant differences that affect a significant number(not every quack with a messiah complex) of people is more difficult than adding up all the different labels. I would say that there may be less than 10 of these major groups. A major qualifier of a group like this would be unreconcilable differences pertaining to salvation "being an insider vs an outsider" . For me, 2 or more of these groups would show an indifference of the god who supposedly wants his word to spread to all the earth, because it is detrimental in determining where entire contents spend the afterlife.
Yes it requires much more for sure!
"There aren't 30k, but there are more than one" is not the flex this guy seems to think it is. But I want to divert into a weird tangent for a second: Given Jesus's claims regarding what his followers would be able to accomplish, should we not conclude that every denomination extant at present is wrong, and that Christians ought to be experimentally altering their doctrines and practices in order to determine which Christianity actually *is* correct? I mean, if Christians believe what Jesus said, they ought to be able to heal people, raise the dead, swallow poison, etc. in his name. Since demonstrably no member of any existing Christian denomination can do this, we can eliminate those from contention as Correct Christianity(TM). Perhaps we should go back to Arianism or Docetism, roll things back to a pre-Nicea state, try to figure out when the last time was that Christians could work proper miracles and see if we can identify what change in belief or practice resulted in that ability being lost.
If you're not a Christian this is obviously silly and a waste of time, but if you DO believe sincerely in Jesus's words, should you not view the lack of ability to do as he says to be proof that you are one of those whom he "never knew," and should that not be so concerning that you want to fix it? And the scientific method of falsifying denominations that are not capable of miracles in Jesus's name seems like a great way to pare down this figure, whether it's 30,000 or somewhat smaller.
I love this! Might steal it for its own video!
" should you not view the lack of ability to do as he says to be proof that you are one of those whom he "never knew," and should that not be so concerning that you want to fix it?"
Well, no. Religions in general, and Christianity in particular, take great pride in believing that they are right _without_ evidence, and even bigger pride in faith dispite evidence to the contrary. God works in mysterious ways and if you don't get what you asked for, well god has reason for that and it is perfectly satisfactory for him and you are not worthy of even thinking about what god's plan might be.
And don't forget that if you worship the wrong god you're going to burn in hell so testing different denominations is going to guarantee hell on some level.
Remember: religion is about power and people wil do anything for power.
Maybe, but I think this approach would get around the issue of "But people can't just change what they believe," because the Experimental Christian still believes that Christianity is fundamentally true, they just admit they don't know exactly WHAT ABOUT Christianity is fundamentally true and want to figure that out. Thus, their beliefs should be possible to change, because their goal is to believe in Correct Christianity, which has associated with it certain falsifiable signs; if a given set of beliefs or practices does not produce those signs, those beliefs are wrong and can be discarded.
I'm not arguing many Christians WOULD adopt this approach. I'm saying that, if one's goal is to practice Correct Christianity, then a willingness to abandon incorrect doctrine is the approach one OUGHT to take.
There's pretty solid evidence that the passage that details the superpowers Christians should get from drinking their Jesus juice was a later interpolation, so it wouldn't be surprising if it turned out to be false.
Biblical inerrancy proponents should probably still believe it, though.
This is essentially what the Mormons claim. They claim that Jesus and the original apostles came to Joseph smith and ‘restored’ the original as Jesus made it.
Hope you get well quick, Brandon!
Thank you for admitting you were wrong about the 40,000 denominations! That's very cool of you.
Thanks. I love learning no matter what
I sure enjoy your well reasoned takes. I’m in total agreement with you! Hope you feel better soon. ❤️
Thanks, Beegee!
Love this! Billons of sects, b/c that's how many Christians there have been? Knocked it out of the park. So why haven't all said, "Man, this makes no sense. Can spin the bible so many different ways, bible has to be bunk"? Horrors! I think if we all thought it was, we would still "Do Church" b/ c we like it, we are social and like groups and getting together.
We have declared an armistice with other religions, "I'm a good Baptist", "I'm a good Methodist", "We go to the 7th Day Adventists Church". We are all cool with this, b/c we all believe in something, even if the other is a heretic. Thank god, we stopped burning each other at the stake.
Lol i think we get to thank man for that one! Ha
The Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance in the 1990s counted between 39,000 and 40,000 denominations. But notes that they assert that anyone who self-identifies as a Christian is a Christian. So an easy way for a ministry or apologist to reduce that number is to dismiss some of those as _not really_ Christian. Which is not just commonplace but typical. Much the way the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is commonly disregarded, countless others are as well. And apologists don't like arguing the matter in good faith.
This number does not include _non-denominational_ churches which are normally too small to specify creeds and rules enough to be defined. However here in the States the DHS doesn't like NRMs (New Religious Movements id est _cults_ ) for fear they'll get dangerous (events like Jonestown and Waco have really scared US law enforcement), so small churches looking to level up often avoid doing so, especially if they're going in a dangerous direction, like pushing hate speech or prosperity gospel.
As a result, actual NRMs tend to average on the harmless side, and non-denominational churches lean towards dangerous culty.
Really good video. I'm also so tired of believers using that excuse that humans are fallen, so it's our fault and not this god's fault. Why is he letting his fallen creation run the show with his word anyway? Why's it always people coming to the defense and not this "perfect" god? Why didn't he make it perfect on his own and put a divine seal on the damn thing so it could never be messed with or even destroyed? Why don't beautiful spiritual things happen when everyone reads it so we will get the full understanding and can then make a proper decision to reject or to give in to the god? It's all such garbage...
Garbage indeed!
The first time I heard about the selling of indulgences was an eye-opener. You steal, grape and murder people. That's no problem. Just give the Catholic Church some money and all of your sins will be forgiven. God is okay with that.
Its so predatory and manipulative.
You might want to proofread your comment.
You don't even understand indulgences. What u said is totally wrong
@@YY4Me133 grape? Just doing what most people do, if they want to avoid using words that YT doesn't like and that might create problems for the content creator. 🤗
But if it is something else then I'd be happy to know about it. 🙏
@@oliversch2183
Ah, I didn't know that. Thanks for the heads up. I can't keep up with what sets off the chronically-offended.
I totally agree with Brandon and to narrow it down, 2 denominations are too many. If there is one god and was only one true word of god then EVERYONE should be on the same page believing ALL the same thing's. So now I gotta narrow things down even more...there's probably not 2 Christian people that agree on everything even with a Christian married couple...just saying with food for thought because we need to THINK!
".. if it doesn't get down to 1, then my issue with christianity remains" -- exactly! That was my feeling from my teenage years. Name only 5-10 denomination, even 2 (Western and Eastern) -- and it stops making any sense.
Happy to be an agnostic and not to bother =D
For sure!
Great vid. Your vokume sounds higher too 😂
Thanks man!
great video! i'm always perplexed at the amount of people who confidently go along with whatever set of interpretations they happen to land on. i'm curious, are you interested in making videos pertaining to any mega churches / more well known pastors? not to attack them but basically the same types of videos you already do. or would that not be up your alley?
Oh im up for anything. If you have a specific let me know.
It’s approximately 3,000 distinct and 45,000 sub brands.
So just 2,999 too many ha
They can't all be right, but they can all be wrong.
100%
It doesn’t matter if there were only 2 denominations it’s still a split church
"The Catolic religion is so unlike our own," Chief Justice John Jay.
Really appreciate your honesty as you started this video.
Thank ya. No need to continue with a weak or incorrect argument when there are so many legit ones still out there. Appreciate you watching.
So much for the word of god that cannot even be understood in a consistent way by all people who want to believe it.
Right. If even sincere seekers cant all arrive at the same concepts, we have an issue.
Figuring out how many denominations there actually ARE is going to take some research. Numbers are all over the place, but seem to be in the thousands, but the lists are much shorter.
Yes like measuring coastlines.
Actually, it's pretty easy to calculate.
Take the current number of christians living in the world.
That is your answer.
Gods are a reflection of the person thinking about them as informed by doctrine. Lines of unity are social not ideological.
Each christian is a denomination unto themselves. The assertion of ideological unity is politics, not a reflection of reality.
Currently there are around 2.3 billion denominations. For all time, bump it up a couple billion more and call it a day.
I think just giving in that the number might be much lower is the wrong move here. The Center for the Study of Global Christianity says there are over 45000 worldwide, with over 200 in the USA. They are the experts on that stuff. So, unless someone gives me a reason to dismiss them or comes up with a better number, that's what I go with.
I remember that in a passage from Galatians 5:20-21 it says something like "heretics will not inherit the kingdom of God." If we consider that Christian denominations believe in things that are totally contrary to each other (Example: Baptism, soteriology, eschatology, etc.) Doesn't that mean that the majority of denominations are practicing heresies by believing in things that are so contradictory?
Yes! But don't ask them about it, they won't take it very well.
I could just repeat the comment I made on an earlier video about some of the major disagreements between the official denominations, but I do not feel like repeating myself, so I will quote someone instead:
"The older I get, the more I believe in God, the less I believe in religion. Religion is where is the trouble starts. 'My story's better than your story, no it's not, yes it is, no it's not, yes it is, no it's not, BOOM!' Doesn't sound very spiritiual, does it? There are 50,000 religions in the world. You know what that means? _Somebody's gonna be wrong._ There might be a lot of us sitting in Hell one night going, 'Who'd you think it was?' Just tearing up your ticket like you're at the horse track, 'I HAD JESUS! It was 8-to-1 when it went off, man! I mean, what are you gonna do? Who knew it was gonna be a giant frog from Africa? I didn't even see it.'"
- Billy Gardell
Lol. Love it
I had an interesting interaction with a fellow commenter on one of your videos. I don't remember what I said first, but someone replied to it by saying "no, ALL Christians believe in..." And I replied with, "I don't agree with you, because I don't think there is anything that "all" Christians believe." I try very carefully to not make statements like that because it just takes one Christian (incase) to disagree with that "all" statement to prove it incorrect.
I think you are 100% right
It`s not just that there are so many denominations of Christianity, It`s that Christians can`t even agree on the most basic foundational things to the faith. Like how to be saved, would could be more important than that?
I could accept a book dictated by an omniscient being where not everyone agrees about everything but we shouldn`t be having disagreement about the most important things to its message, and we do. I see this as arguably the biggest problem for Christianity.
The fact that there is not just one denomination is just one red flag, in a sea of red flags.
So well said!
Gordon-Conwell estimated a couple years ago 2.3 new versions of Christianity took root every DAY.
Data>fee-feez
Wow! What an insane thing to think about. So much for objective truth ay?
The SSPX is an example of a "denomination" in Catholicism
I grew up in the SSPX. And even within the SSPX there were breakaway churches who disagreed with Richard Williamson, who was the archbishop at the time.
Since Jesus said he came to divide families-it shouldn't be surprising to modern day "Christians" that Christianity is divided. One prayer that Jesus prayed that wasn't answered in the affirmative, was that his followers would be one as he and the father are one.From the division that Paul and Peter created till the Protestants and Catholics division and up until modern times,Christianity has become more and more splintered and it will continue unless, maybe, they can find a common enemy.
Religion in the U.S. is an example of a sector in which the free market works, just as Adam Smith envisioned it: All participants now have abundant opportunities to acquire information about the goods and services on offer and can conduct their activities in the market freely.
But so many believers in certain religions would like to see monopolies, protectionism, or even outright state socialism in religion.
Interesting insight here. I think youre right
It's simple - if you believe in Yahweh, you believe in a fictional character from mythology. However, the intra-faith wrangling is a reason for more great content.
Ha. Thanks Simon
1. Orthodoxy: The Orthodox churches do teach there is only one church: Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, and Catholicism. I don't know enough about the Church of England to know if it declares itself one and only.
2. The Catholic Church repealed its anathema on all other Christian denominations in the 2nd Vatican, effectively recognizing any flavor of Christian can get you to heaven. In effect every Protestant denomination can substitute for Catholicism and are in effect then a denomination of Catholicism. At the heart of this is the infallibility of the Pope. The Pope's interpretation is supposed to be the ONLY interpretation for Catholics. But since the Catholic church recognizes since the 2nd Vatican that Protestants can get into heaven than ANY interpretation of the Bible will work.
3. Emma Thorne on TH-cam recently had a nice interview with Bart Ehrman I recommend. The topic is did Paul found the Christian church or did Jesus, or both? Jesus never taught about his own death. Jesus taught that salvation came from following the Torah commandments. As Bart points out salvation as taught by Jesus would mean becoming a Jew. Paul, on the other hand, exclusively taught about salvation is through the death and resurrection and further taught that it was okay for the Gentiles to ignore Jewish traditions but to follow Jewish moral commandments. Paul never taught that salvation was what Jesus said it was. Technically all the Christians who think they are getting into heaven based upon Jesus' forgiveness are not following Jesus' teachings, but Paul's. It just seems strange that Christians are following Paul when it comes to the death and resurrection. Paul was just a human.
To be fair there's a big group of catholics who don't believe in vatican II
Love you, man.
Many thanks!
My favorite is when someone says they belong to a "Bible believing Church", and deny any other churches ...AS IF the majority aren't "Bible believing".
Right. Just always the arrogance
As a 7th generation Mormon I found your messaged accurate. Mormons believe God has MANY more things to reveal when there are disciples that can bear it. John 16:12-13 promises this. And continuing revelation can resolve all the controversies that cause division. The doctrine of Bible infallibility is needed for making Christianity a business. But not if God gives more revelation.
But Mormonism today has also stagnated like other faiths and no church leader in the main church has produced a Word of the Lord revelation for over 130 years. But I remain Mormon because restoration truths set us free from confusion in the churches that only have the Bible revelations.
What really sets one free is realizing none of this is real in the first place
The Catholics did a good job of keeping things centralized because literacy was so low and the printing press hadn't been invented so reproducing a Bible was laborious. -- I agree with everything you said. Just wanted to add that.
I don't remember who mentioned recently that there is a simple self defeater in John 17: 20 - 23. Jesus prays that the believers would have complete unity to show the world that he was sent by God the Father. Obviously Jesus' prayer was not answered in the affirmative.
Most denominations have their roots in the Roman Catholic Church. You know the one. The one that claimed the earth was the center of the universe and put people to death who thought otherwise. It only to took 400 years to give an apology... of sorts. If we want to look at which denomination we might choose, we need to look at their history of how they treated people and managed money and power. Suddenly the options don't look so good.
Loving your comments!
I don't think I've ever heard anyone else say it, but yeah, there are as many concepts of god as there have been humans. Maybe more, but we can't communicate with animals yet. I noticed this long ago when I saw people within the same church have disagreements. It was a major crack in the glass for me, how could the adults (who should know more than me) have such wildly different ideas of what was being said, unless...everyone's perspective is filtered through their own brains. No concept of any god is the exact same as another. Wait a minute.....
The folk who were finally pivotal in my deconversion were Christadelphians. They are a tiny sect and they consider themselves to be both biblical and Christian. They are also non-Trinitarians. They think all other denominations are on their way to hell, but if they are Protestant they do have some small hope. Catholics have no hope. (That was over 50 years ago, and whether or not they have modified any beliefs since then, I don't know).
But yeah, on forums. many believers will insist that they all agree on salvation (and will quote something like John 3:16), arguing that anything else is non-salvific, or a secondary issue. Yet I see so much finger pointing - mostly Protestants labelling Catholics as "non Christian" or Protestants and Catholics calling out Mormons, JWs etc. as non Christian.
Furthermore if you go to the net and type in - "The damnable heresy of X" - where X can be Lutheranism, Catholicism, Arminianism, Calvinism, Church of Christ, or whatever, you will get a lot of hits.
Then there are all those groups across history which no longer exist. Consider the groups Paul railed against in his letters.
Spot on! This all is excellent and further proof of the issue at hand. They want to look united but its simply not the case
The abrahamic religions have the same energy as that "How Standards Proliferate" comic by XKCD
-There are X competing standards/denominations.
-Believers: This is ridiculous! We need to develop one single church that has the one and only truth!
-There are now X+1 competing standards/denominations.
Never once do they think about the irony of it. Or the hypocrisy for that matter.
It blows my mind that Queen Elizabeth of England was, and now her son, King Charles of England is considered to be chosen by God for Divine Right of Monarchy as the head of The Church of England. In other words, Charles has inherited his Mother's position as Pope of the Church of England. Henry VIII wanted a divorce, and the Catholic pope in Rome wouldn't allow it. Thus the Church of England was created so that Henry could get a divorce and remarry.
When Charles was coronated after his mother died, the Church of England's clerics performed a magic ritual also making Charles the head of the Church of England. England's monarch is no longer the head of state, more like a figurehead there, but they still "defend" the church. Crazy, right?
The Church of England is the *Protestant* sect spoken of in this video, the sect that broke off from Roman Catholic rule in which the Pope ruled kings... all for a divorce. All so Henry could marry Anne Boleyn, who he later beheaded anyway.
“Coronated” do you mean crowned? Coronated isn’t a word.
Like you suggest, Instead of citing a big number, you can make the same point in a much smaller context. Go to any moderately large town/city in the US, get people from each of the literal dozens if churches you'll find, and ask each how many others in your collection are truly saved. I expect you'll have *at least* three who say all the other churches teach falsehoods which will definitely send their followers to hell.
It would be a funny real time experiment!
It is frustrating to me that the "debunking" is the exact number, like that has anything to do with the underlying point.
Exactly! Not the win he thinks it is
Maybe it's too low-ball, but I highly recommend Extra Credits (Extra History) history of the early Church. Early Christian scisms. It's some wild stuff, some of it even is in our Bibles today!
Ill check it out. Thanks!
A bit simplistic here. Virtually all Christians are in agreement with the Nicene Creed. The Catholics/Orthodox are very similar theologically and represent about 2/3rds of global Christians. The Catholic denomination is roughly half of all Christians. You can add some Anglicans to the pile on that. If we really took denominations seriously by influence, there are maybe 10 that have any real respectability. So, the number of denominations is not overly relevant. Why does God allow this to happen? Well, we had widespread heresies of the Arians, Gnostics, Pelagians, Donatists, etc. in the first couple centuries. They're all gone now. Divine Providence works itself out, but it does take a couple of centuries. We're seeing Divine Providence at work with some denominations fading away. I dare to say that the denomination with the longest history, most members, most global outreach, and the highest level of influence is probably God's church. And for atheists to give a spotlight on some random Baptist Church as representative of Christianity is completely dishonest. You don't have to be a Christian to look at the scholarship and pinpoint the denomination that is most accurate to the objective understanding of Biblical literature. It's just lazy to throw up your hands and say it's inconclusive. Do the work.
Lol this is more evidence of the problem. Saying anyone who ended up in a different denomination than you think is correct hasn’t done the work…
@@MindShift-Brandon The evidence of Catholic Orthodoxy's long-standing history, global outreach, population, and political/socio-influence appears to be lost on you. If God does exist, Divine Providence is with the Catholic-Orthodox and we can see the steady decline of all of her rivals who obviously do not have it. But it's not even necessary to believe in Divine Providence to know I am correct. Biblical scholarship worth its salt will objectively come to the conclusion that the Catholic-Orthodox perspective is interpreting the literature to the highest level of precision among all other denominations. You appear to be engaging in Ad Hom appeal to motivation/association with me. I pray that isn't the case.