If you offer something to someone with no strings attached, it's a gift. If there are conditions that go with it, it's a transaction. If there are threats to it, that elevates it to coercion.
YOU aren't from infinity. You just don't know what you don't know... what you don't want to know. It's your choice. GOD has never robbed you of your free will.
@@undignified2843 God robs every victim of free will when he refuses to restrict the free will of predators even to the point of limiting how much harm they can do to others. He gives unlimited free will to pedophiles, rapists, and serial killers but none at all to the victims even just to protect themselves from such violation. An all-powerful God in this universe is no one's friend except abusers'.
Yeah, Try adding on the scourging and the crucifixion and see how ready you'll be to go through the process. And bad news dude. You'll not be rising from dead
I confronted a Street Preacher who said Jesus died for my sins. I said, "so Jesus is dead." He said no he has resurrected m, he has risen. So I said, "Jesus went to a Paradise Kingdom and became ruler of the entire universe for my sins; it sounds like Jesus should be thanking me!" 🤣
@MindShift-Brandon with regards to Jesus being sinless please consider that he was born in the lineage of prostitutes. So Mary carried impure blood... Mary's blood mixed with Jesus blood...so Jesus by definition cannot be pure! Unless he is born to a tree. Also this is not an ultimate sacrifice. There were many who sacrificed their own kids. If one sacrifices hair, it is not called ultimate because it grows back! But if one sacrifices let's say one's tongue, then it is a higher order sacrifice than hair. How can you call Jesus sacrifice ultimate where he could get himself back to life with no sweat!. Was he cheating his own system????
@@schnellster1 You really don't understand the incarnation do you? The blood of a child is unique to the child and has nothing to do with the blood from the mother. But nice try.
Exactly, a true savior...first of all would have come as soon as Adam and Eve were tricked and stand in the breach against Satan if Satan couldn't just be banned from the natural world and second, he would simply stay here...and live among us...continually performing obvious miracles and explaining everything from the 'horses mouth' so to speak. He would be everywhere all at once showing everyone the way, rescuing kidnap victims, stopping shootings, healing sick kids, warning of impending natural disasters...essentially doing what almost any other human would do if they were able.
As a child/teenager, if I worked up the courage to raise the kind of concerns you are addressing here, my pastor would use thought stopping statements on me. He would say, "Oh, you're overthinking that." or "You haven't thought that through enough yet." The consequence of this was that I rarely asked questions, and I had to struggle with hard questions about faith in the solitude of my own mind. This led to deep depression at age 19. It's very cathartic to view your content now. You openly, unashamedly, and logically address many of the same problems I have thought about for years. Thank you for helping me see that I'm not crazy.
I've had a lot of family and friends who use the thought-stopping technique of: "you're trying to argue with God, and because his thoughts are higher than your thoughts and his ways are mysterious, you *must* be wrong."
Yeah. At thirteen I was told by one elder in our very fundamentalist church that when I ask inquisitive questions, it's the "hissing of the snake." A good way to shut a kid up, for sure.
I sometimes attend a Presbertarian church with my family as a polite gesture. I had a proud moment with my 5 YO grandson last weekend. He was singing the songs displayed on the screens, then he stopped and said, "Wait a minute!. This song doesn't make sense. I don't want to be covered in blood!." If a kid can see through this nonsense, we should be ashamed as adults for being so hoodwinked. Admittedly, Joey is not your typical 5 year old. The people around us did kind of laugh uncomfortably. Try explaining a death cult to a little kid. I dare you.
That's great. Remember someone also dismantled this "You're washed in the blood of Christ" line, saying: In case you didn't notice, blood doesn't remove stains. Blood makes stains.
Christian: "Jesus died for you!" Me: "Wait... what do you mean, 'for' me? How exactly did his death benefit me in any way?" Christian: "It removed your guilt. The guilt you inherited from when two people who couldn't distinguish right from wrong (because they were designed that way by a sky wizard) ate a magic fruit that they weren't supposed to but it was put into a place accessible to them for some reason and a talking snake told them to eat it, and they were punished by the sky wizard (the very same one who designed them and thus knew they couldn't know that what they were doing was wrong). Sure, it happened long before you were born and you couldn't possibly be responsible, but you are because the sky wizard said so, and Jesus removed that guilt by dying. ...kinda. He only died temporarily, and also he didn't really remove the guilt, you have to recognize that he removed it or it'll still be there and you'll be tortured for eternity by a system that the sky wizard made. The sky wizard told me to say he loves you, by the way." Me: *dial 911* "Yes, I'm standing next to someone who is having some kind of psychotic break."
It’s so easy not to believe in a god and salvation scheme that you describe in your own terms completely incomprehensible from an actual Christian standpoint. You have created a recursive Confirmation Bias upon a Straw Man. Pathetic.
Religion is the way consciousness is developed. The old stories don't work anymore, we need new ones. But prayer and the God theory is still indispensable.
12 year old me to Sunday School teacher: "What did you mean by Jesus died for my sins?" SS teacher: "Jesus died to pay your debt. And now you owe Jesus. Therefore, follow Him." me: "A debt? Pay him? I don't have a job!" Thanks for making this video. Took the words right out of my mouth. Religious doctrine is truly crazy-making.
None of us (including me until recently) seemed to realize that being tortured for several hours, losing life for only 3 days, and then coming alive and ascending into heaven is NOT "dying!"
You're missing the point that His body was dead. However long someone is dead is irrelevant; it's the fact that they were dead - it happens in the emergency room all the time. Besides, you just glossing over every torturous thing He endured before He died shows a complete lack of understanding. You discard it as if you could go through the same any day and twice on sunday. You'd be crying like a baby if someone just beat your feet with a board. Heck, you'd be crying if someone kicked you out of your house.
@auh2o148 many people were crucified. Many people even today die worse deaths all the time. Dying is not the point. Staying dead should have been. Its not a sacrifice. God didn’t lose anything. When i go on a work trip for three days. My family misses me. If i died. They would never see me again. One is a long weekend, the other is actual loss.
@MindShiftSkeptic like I said, the point is His body died. If you drop dead right now, as far as anyone else is concerned - you're done. If our Creator chose to resurrect you for some reason, it wouldn't negate the fact that you were dead - even if it's only for a few minutes, let alone 3 days & nights. You guys are conveniently skipping steps so that you don't have to acknowledge the fact that Someone you don't know died for you. This is why people who deny His suffering & death or the importance of His death will themselves suffer eternal death and suffering. He will not be mocked, and His *sacrifice* will not go unappreciated - with the doubters living to brag about it.
And that point about why doesn’t everyone automatically inherit forgiveness in the same way we inherit original sin is a really interesting point as well. Why is there another clause of “believe in him”, which requires being in the right location at the right time to hear the right message about the right diety and then to choose to believe in it or not
I never understood why a God that apparently existed for eternity, made the decision to impregnate just one human female, in one small location of the Earth, to produce a son to save mankind. Why would God not impregnate 30 or more human females to create multiple sons to spread the message of God? One or two in Asia, one or two for Europe, one for Scandinavia, one for North America, one for South America, one for Australia and New Zealand, a couple for Africa and a few more to spread around. The one son he did create was by all accounts just a very normal human child until he disappeared from history at around age 12. When Jesus did return as an adult, only then did he set about the teach the words of God to the people and that only lasted for three years until God called him home. Why would the eternal God choose his son to be sacrificed after only three years of teaching, when the lessons taught had only reached about One percent of the human beings on the planet? A few thousand years, at least, is only a blink of the eye to an eternal God, so why isn't Christ still here 2,300 years later, working to finish the job he started. It's a great little story until you apply a little reason to it.
You are my new favorite skeptic. I walked away 26 years ago, and I only had a couple of books to help pad my fall. I was brought up the same as you. I even wrote 100s of poems about my love for Jesus. I constantly cried for people's souls and tried to help save as many as I could. Then one day... hmmm... this is going to be long. You may skip it for that reason. Well, to put it simply, a terrible tsunami hit, and thousands died. Pat Robinson said it was because of their practice of vodo. I was sick to my stomach and I decided then and there that I could no longer follow a God that I was nicer than. It wasn't long before I was singing to myself, "I was blind but now I see." I HAVE HAD 26 years of more peace and love in my heart than I had the first 32 as a Born-Again Christain. Oh, there is so much more I could say, but I have to stop. Anyway, thank you!!! You are saying so many things I had started to understand myself through the years and teaching me so much that I wish I had known. I love your channel. I'm so glad I found you. If only I'd had you 30 years ago, my years of fear would have been cut in half. Keep it up and Thank You!
Similar story with me. But I wish I was still ignorant of it all, since I realised gods are bronze age explanations for existence I feel whats the point, the fact is we are currently top of the food chain but we will die out and another animal will be top of it
Pat is wrong for saying that, because Jesus tore down the assumed connection between natural disasters and sin. "Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them-do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.” Luke 13:1-5. Whose word are you going to believe, Pat or Jesus?
What kind of deal is it that Jesus died for a weekend and was raised, only to ascend to never-ending peace, but each one of us will be subjected to eternal, infernal torture if we don't accept the so-called gift of grace.
@@MindShift-Brandon God confirms the faith that we have to believe (trust) the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) when God does this it puts an end to having to continue to believe by faith. I no longer believe by faith that God exists, that I am saved, and that I have a relationship with God because as a true born again Christian I know such a thing beyond all doubt. That's how I know that all ex-Christians were never true born again Christians to begin with.
@@danielblair4413 classic no true Scotsman fallacy. And no, just because you’re convinced of something doesn’t mean you “know” it. It’s still just your belief system. So if believing in the gospels means you don’t have to solely believe in god on faith, with only the account of the gospels to go on, don’t you just have faith in a book instead now ?
@@krylich5702 says: *classic no true Scotsman fallacy.* There is no such thing as a "No true Scotsman" fallacy because the bible defines exactly what you must be in order to be a true Christian and if you are NOT that then you are NOT a true Christian. What a true Christian must be is born again in the spirit and if you are NOT then you are NOT a true Christian. When one is born again in the spirit, they know such a thing beyond all doubt just like you know beyond all doubt that you have been born the first time in the flesh. *And no, just because you’re convinced of something doesn’t mean you “know” it. It’s still just your belief system.* It's a belief system to you, but it's NOT a belief system to me. Something that is known beyond all doubt is no longer a belief due to being known beyond all doubt. *So if believing in the gospels means you don’t have to solely believe in god on faith, with only the account of the gospels to go on, don’t you just have faith in a book instead now?* I never believed in the existence of a creator by faith because evidence and logical reasoning led me to the conclusion that a creator in general existed. When I believed (trusted) the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) I believed that the creator in general that I believed in was the father of Jesus.
As someone raised in Britain in an admittedly atheist home the cynical person in me says that the entire message of God and Jesus was shaped over thousands of years by the priesthood for one purpose and one purpose alone. To control the populace. When only the priesthood could actually read the holy book (in this case the Bible) it's incredibly easy for them to control the narrative which is why they so stringently opposed the Bible being translated into English, it cost them control. Now anyone can read a copy of the Bible and ask questions that the priesthood doesn't like. IMO Christianity is simply one of the oldest cults still existing but its very age and how it has engrained itself into society is what gives it legitimacy.
There was never a time when only the priesthood could read the bible. There are a number of partial Old English Bible translations (from the Latin) surviving, including the Old English Hexateuch, Wessex Gospels and the Book of Psalms, partly in prose and partly in a different verse version. Others, now missing, are referred to in other texts, notably a lost translation of the Gospel of John into Old English by the Venerable Bede, which he is said to have completed shortly before his death around the year 735. Alfred the Great had a number of passages of the Bible circulated in the vernacular about 900, and in about 970 an inter-linear translation was added in red to the Lindisfarne Gospels.[20] These included passages from the Ten Commandments and the Pentateuch, which he prefixed to a code of laws he promulgated around this time. In approximately 990, a full and freestanding version of the four Gospels in idiomatic Old English appeared, in the West Saxon dialect; these are called the Wessex Gospels. According to the historian Victoria Thompson, "although the Church reserved Latin for the most sacred liturgical moments almost every other religious text was available in English by the eleventh century".[21] After the Norman Conquest, the Ormulum, produced by the Augustinian friar Orm of Lincolnshire around 1150, includes partial translations of the Gospels and Acts of the Apostles from Latin into the dialect of East Midland. The manuscript is written in the poetic meter iambic septenarius. Richard Rolle of Hampole (or de Hampole) was an Oxford-educated hermit and writer of religious texts. In the early 14th century, he produced English glosses of Latin Bible text, including the Psalms. Rolle translated the Psalms into a Northern English dialect, but later copies were written in Southern English dialects. Around the same time, an anonymous author in the West Midlands region produced another gloss of the Psalms - the West Midland Psalms. In the early years of the 14th century, a French copy of the Book of Revelation was anonymously translated into English, and there were English versions of various French paraphrases and moralized versions. In the late 14th century, John Wycliffe and perhaps Nicholas Hereford produced the first complete English language Bible. Wycliffe's Bible was revised in the last years of the 14th century, resulting in two major editions, the second more numerous than the first, both circulating widely despite their official prohibition at the Oxford Synod.
@@tomasrocha6139 In Medieval times, most churchgoers were illiterate. That's why Catholic churches have so much imagery and statuary: they told the stories the priests wanted the flock to be impressed with without words. If only the elite can read, having something written in the language you speak doesn't mean much about availability for most people. And the versions you're describing is before the time of the printing press, when only rare manually-copied versions were available-- to the few who were wealthy enough to afford them. And able to read them.
A sensible and well-written comment, apart from the entirely incorrect use of the word "cult" to describe Christianity. It is not acknowledged to be a cult by any qualified people with whom Im familiar. Whatever right or wrong exists in it, it is not a cult.
I came up with an analogy to make a point I rarely see made. "Imagine there's a King and his people. It started off with little things. He would hold assemblies, and he couldn't get anyone to listen to his speeches. They would interrupt him, throw food at him, and just show a general disdain for his authority. It quickly escalated and even the most sensible rules he would issue would be broken. The people would steal, kill, and rape as much as they could. Eventually the King had enough. He sent his guards to round up all the food in the kingdom. He told the people that if they wanted the food, they would need to find a virgin, and sacrifice her at his feet. The only problem was, no virgins remained in the kingdom. The people came to the King and pleaded with him for food. The King finally came up with a solution. He would sacrifice his daughter so the people could eat again. Several people were confused by this solution, but the most sycophantic of the people readily praised the King for this act of love." It's amazing how easy it is to see the flaw when you personify the actions of a deity. The king has the power to release the food. He has the power to revoke the demand for the sacrifice. He doesn't need to sacrifice his child to meet his own demands. Christianity would have us believe that meeting the demands he made by sacrificing his child is an act of love. It isn't. It's just murder to appease himself, and the fact that it's his own child makes it more disturbing, not more loving.
I've met a few people who actively pushed the whole "I'm so unworthy of his love" thing as if it were a good mentality. They couldn't comprehend that it was self demeaning and contradictory, they just thought it was a fanatical form of being humble or something, ironically enough. And not one of them saw a problem with it, although a few clearly were doing their best not to think about it. It's alien to me how they live with themselves.
I still hear it at my church regularly, and it's like nails on a chalkboard. You'll never hear a church greeter talk like this, but 20 minutes later you'll hear it from the stage, that you don't deserve love, life, or forgiveness. It's said so often people don't notice it.
I agree with everything you said. To add to it: The notion that we should or even can absolve guilty person A of wrongdoing by punishing innocent person B is a perversion of justice. It's nonsensical, unwise, counterproductive for society, and-to my moral intuitions-immoral. Any God who employs such a system would be unworthy of praise.
One day my daughter, who was about 11, and I were walking by a church and they had John 3:16 on their board out front. My daughter said "He's God. He could have just made another son" . So many things wrong with the Christian story.
Exactly. So he sends himself to earth to be betrayed ( he knew ahead of time) yet cried on the cross he put himself on that his father(him) has forsaken him(self). Get your programs out kids, can’t tell the players without a program. 🤡
@@artmeacademywiththesaltyse9537 No, Jesus never claimed to be God in fact he denied it. The deity of Christ is false, trintiy is false, modalism is false. Jesus called himself a "man" not a godman. John 8:40. Jesus called his Father "the only true God" John 17:3
I heard a pastor equate it to a courtroom, where everyone is given a life sentence, but Jesus takes everyone's sentences on themself. But his sentence is commuted to a day and a half (Friday afternoon to Saturday night). If that happened in real life, there would be chaos. I've heard people say no one would be as selfless as Jesus. I respond, "If you wouldn't spend six hours in pain followed by a day and a half dead, to save your spouse, or child, then you're a monster. It wasn't an especially impressive sacrifice."
It wasn't even a weekend. Crucified on a Friday night, Saturday in the tomb, Sunday am, kerpow, I'm back ! If he'd resurrected Monday morning, it would at least be a WHOLE weekend out of eternity. God loved mankind so much, he spent almost a weekend pretending to be dead.
The idea of Jesus being “a perfect human being” and realizing I’ll never live a perfect life like him just destroyed me when I held Christian beliefs. As a child I would lay in bed, unable to sleep, anxiety-ridden, thinking about this. No child should live that way.
Brandon.. Every point you made in this video is exactly what I’ve thought and wrestled with.. I’ve never heard someone break it all down in that short of time! After I lost my Mom.. I began to look deeper into these issues as I always just pushed them along. I can say losing a loved one shook me at the core, and thinking because they didn’t believe a certain set of propositions or claims, that there is more punishment or suffering and separation after death, than what they already went threw here.. it wakes you up.. And the underlining truth of all this shows itself! It’s really disgusting…
I was raised an atheist, and when my mother died I had one Christian lady assure me that my mother was burning in hell because she hadn't been saved. I was eleven. Believe me, it gave me a real skepticism about religion.
Same here. Always wondered how God could die to appease himself. Always wondered why God expected us to be perfect (without sin), when we weren't created this way.
this the first video of yours i've watched, and as someone brought up in fundamentalist, charismatic christianity since infancy, you hit the nail on the head with this. i was always a curious child, and as i got older, my questions were met with being told that i "just needed to have faith and trust in the word." i went away for college and began to deconstruct. none of it made any sense and i was made to feel that since i didn't have "spiritual eyes to see the things of the spirit," i was somehow less than. never mind the fact that i identify as a genderqueer individual. i always felt more drawn to the energy and way of nature, and eastern philosophies like taoism. your video made me feel like i'm not crazy for not believing in this stuff anymore. so thank you.
Now this one's quite interesting. I always did wonder why God couldn't just forgive Adam and Eve. Like, if you're the one who's making the rules for this whole scenario, then why would you want it to be the most arduous, painful process ever when you could have just said, "Y'all messed up, but it's aight; I got you, fam." And another issue that I'm not sure anyone considers is that if Jesus was the end goal of the plan all along, then why not make Adam and Eve's first child be Jesus and then have Adam do an Abraham? Boom - problem solved, everyone can be saved right from the get go before everything gets out of hand and billions of people have to go to Hell because they have no knowledge of this event. And I feel you about the perfection thing. Growing up in church it was always preached how incredible and inspiring Jesus's life was, that he lived without sin and how we should all aspire to the same. And I'm like, "Well, He had certain advantages that we can't have, so..." I guess the point is, if I was God, I think I would have done things differently.
I was talking to a Christian friend a long while ago, and I was like "yeah I would sacrifice myself, send me to hell for actual eternity if I knew *for sure* that all of mankind would be saved." I think lots of people would be up for that, it's not that big of a deal. And I wouldn't even care if people believed in me or even knew my name. Who cares, I'd be burning atm, other slightly more pressing matters. It's an underwhelming story to begin with, and Jesus being a God who cheats his way out makes it even more underwhelming.
In Judaism God does do things differently. All you have to do is repent, and God is ready and willing to forgive, and does forgive. (Ezekiel 18.21-23) No human blood sacrifice on a cruciform, Priapeian torture-stake necessary.
The problem is "backward reasoning" (or "after the fact rationalizing"). Things aren't done differently. They are exactly the way they are (or at least we perceive them that way). But - main premise of theism - God did it. So there must be a reason, a good reason... and it must not have been "God's fault". That's the starting point... and from that point backwards are the religious doctrines and dogmas constructed. And this works on all levels of a religion. Like "Jesus perfection". Basic premise: Jesus was perfect. He was / is God himself. So everything Jesus did must have been perfect and sinless... and if it seems to us that this wasn't that case... our perception is wrong. Because Jesus was perfect, and we mustn't contradict the basic premise. Backward reasoning.
I have never taken the story of Adam and Eve very seriously. I just considered it as being no more than Greek mythology. I see it as being interesting to know and perhaps have casual conversations about but that's about it. It is much like the story of "Pandora's box" where the only thing left in the box was "hope". Both are interesting for occasional discussion such as Pandora's box was in college Greek mythology classes. I do remember being in a Southern Baptist Church as a child and all the folks that believed the story was an actual event. Brainwashing at its finest and most of it done willingly and with self help. I consider it a form of child abuse to teach that stuff to kids. I was also a victim. I also see the story as a threat to Jews and Christians for not having impossible blind faith. Who would not of payed attention to the snake? The Snake made sense. Yeah, I know the bible does not say "snake". I always figured that if the story was true then god got an orgasm out of his plan succeeding and being able to condemn mankind. Why didn't god just save time and condemn man without all the Garden of Eden crap? It would of saved time and got the result he knew would happen if he is all knowing. See, that is they kind of conversation for which I was referring earlier. I am a very simple guy and all I require is simple proof the supernatural events happened then I'd be all in. But without it I am stuck with common sense and logic to fall back on instead of fables and mythology. Simple and direct. Would not simple and direct be the path of a real god being he made human and knows his nature.
I use videos like this in the same light as Christians going to Church, TO reinforce my understanding. It is sometimes good to get another viewpoint. I am 74 years old. I started questioning the faith when I was in High School. I was raised in a Southern Baptist home so the b/s was pilled on deep and high. But the supernatural and lack of science always weighted heavy on me. I always had problems with the Supernatural events of the bible. I also read the "Age of Reason" by Thomas Paine when I was young. That was an eye opener for me. But it was just a first step in my change. I don't get deep into disproving the bible stories because most of the bible is based on supernatural events. If they are not true then the whole thing falls. SO my position is that the supernatural events must first be proven true. Examples being the virgin birth, jumping out of the grave after 3 or 4 days, taking a Uber ride in a whale, walking on water, Samson's magic hair and so on. If you were born into the Church then it takes a strong foundation and will to overcome the propaganda driven in your brain by Christians. The whole system is fine tuned over the years to deny reality.
@@MindShift-Brandon "I'm stealing an uber ride in a whale" Don't worry I will stealing thoughts from you as well. Also the "Uber ride" works well for Elijah's ride to heaven.
"The whole system is fine-tuned over the years to deny reality." Exactly. Evolution - as applied to survival of religions, dictates each must acquire sufficient traits to be among the ones who survive. Those religions who had not acquired sufficient survival traits face decline or do not survive, then join the many extinct ones.
Incredible! I’ve had thoughts like this forever about Christianity, and I’ve never seen a TH-cam counterapologist stress this particular aspect of the narrative failure of the Christ myth. That Jesus paid for our sins, but paid an infinitely smaller price than what is demanded as payment from humans. It’s all so completely absurd.
Questioning religion is always smart; but, questioning The Truth should be aproached scientifically, like a math equation. The guy in this video just questioned how a tree produces fruit - when instead he should be questioning how does the tree exist? There are questions that 'appear' intelligent to the untrained because the cut-off branch is still green, but after awhile people will see it's actually dead and fruitless.
@@auh2o148 The Truth™️ needs to be approached like a math Equation? “How we exist” will never be demonstrated through mere a priori arm chair logic. Begone, knave, your Aristotelian physics have no power here.
Even more absurd: Jesus paid for our sins, but the overwhelming majority of us are going to hell anyway. As Brandon pointed out, we inherit "original sin" without doing anything, but for some reason we have to do all kinds of rituals and claims and statements etc (at the minimum) to inherit the debt payment.
Welcome all! This deconstruction of the main point of christianity is one of my favorite things to think on. Lots jammed in to this video. Probably should have been a 10 episode series ha! Enjoy.
You did a remarkable job with this. I was tempted to send it to my stepdad, but I'm a bit hesitant to disrupt my parents' faith. I mean, I doubt this would shake him much, but these are very reasonable questions. Why would a loving father complicate forgiveness like this? It shouldn't be THIS difficult for a child to earn their father's love.
@@MindShift-Brandon My husband was more of an atheist before me. I was firmly agnostic, I wanted to believe, just like you said in a previous video. That's very relatable. For a few years I thought my husband was a cynic, not just a skeptic. But I've come to really love and appreciate his no-BS approach to life. He's practical, levelheaded, and not at all as pessimistic as I once thought. It took time and personal growth for me to truly appreciate critical thinking.
*This* is the biggest issue I have with Christianity in particular. I could rationalize a lot, I could force myself to deny scientific evidence, and I could put the general problem of why bad things ever happen on the back burner. But the fact that the salvation doctrine doesn't make any sense even on its own terms -- this does it for me. And that the consequences of eternal hell are so infinitely out of proportion -- that's infinitely worse than even the regular problem of evil, especially in light of such a nonsensical salvation doctrine. Even if I wanted to become a Christian, I would not know exactly whether I had done whatever it that involves being saved -- and I've never heard an explanation that makes sense.
It wasnt the biggest for me at first, but like you said, it would be the biggest blocker of ever being able to go back…other than maybe the clarity of just how false and inaccurate the bible is.
The b-i-b-l-e never said for people to pick a religion; in fact, J-e-s-u-s Himself condemned religious people. Religion promotes stupidity. The Truth is what you need, and that is what the b-i-b-l-e provides: the truth about how we got here, why we were made, how things work, and Who and what The Truth is.
I always thought Roman crucifixion was so convenient to the story. What if it was another form of display like a head on a pike? Would there be church prayer under a head on a pike? What of the resurrection? Wouldn't the head have disappeared? Would prayer be under a pointy stick? And, what of the disciples? Would they have been visited by a floating head, a headless body or some grotesque fusion? It just occurred to me, with all those pointy sticks, wouldn't that make a Christian cemetery a dangerous place to be?
The whole story really does start to fall apart under any real scrutiny. It's no wonder they scream "heresy!" every time someone takes a critical look at it.
It’s why they tried so hard to suppress reading and printing the Bible in the first place. They argued, and rightly so, that if the masses were able to read it and other ideas for themselves they would abandon the church. And they did. But not because knowledge is inherently wrong or that being able to reason comes from satan or whatever. No, it’s because people don’t believe in conspiracy theories when they actively know how things work. Lightning can seem like something send from a god but when you know the mechanics of what’s actually happening you don’t really be needing god anymore.
@@SkywalkerSamadhi They didn't try very hard to suppress reading and printing. There are a number of partial Old English Bible translations (from the Latin) surviving, including the Old English Hexateuch, Wessex Gospels and the Book of Psalms, partly in prose and partly in a different verse version. Others, now missing, are referred to in other texts, notably a lost translation of the Gospel of John into Old English by the Venerable Bede, which he is said to have completed shortly before his death around the year 735. Alfred the Great had a number of passages of the Bible circulated in the vernacular about 900, and in about 970 an inter-linear translation was added in red to the Lindisfarne Gospels.[20] These included passages from the Ten Commandments and the Pentateuch, which he prefixed to a code of laws he promulgated around this time. In approximately 990, a full and freestanding version of the four Gospels in idiomatic Old English appeared, in the West Saxon dialect; these are called the Wessex Gospels. According to the historian Victoria Thompson, "although the Church reserved Latin for the most sacred liturgical moments almost every other religious text was available in English by the eleventh century".[21] After the Norman Conquest, the Ormulum, produced by the Augustinian friar Orm of Lincolnshire around 1150, includes partial translations of the Gospels and Acts of the Apostles from Latin into the dialect of East Midland. The manuscript is written in the poetic meter iambic septenarius. Richard Rolle of Hampole (or de Hampole) was an Oxford-educated hermit and writer of religious texts. In the early 14th century, he produced English glosses of Latin Bible text, including the Psalms. Rolle translated the Psalms into a Northern English dialect, but later copies were written in Southern English dialects. Around the same time, an anonymous author in the West Midlands region produced another gloss of the Psalms - the West Midland Psalms. In the early years of the 14th century, a French copy of the Book of Revelation was anonymously translated into English, and there were English versions of various French paraphrases and moralized versions. In the late 14th century, John Wycliffe and perhaps Nicholas Hereford produced the first complete English language Bible. Wycliffe's Bible was revised in the last years of the 14th century, resulting in two major editions, the second more numerous than the first, both circulating widely despite their official prohibition at the Oxford Synod.
@@Lerian_VYeah, well I do, and yes. It’s easily proven nonsense. Starting right off with the first book. So many inaccuracies, contradictions, and out right moral BS. One of the first stories is a flood that never happened, and couldn’t of physically happened, even if we entertained the idea that an all powerful and loving god would turn 99% of all life on earth to a hashtag, with overwhelming collateral damage, that would probably make even Hitler whence. The religion debunks itself, the moment you start questioning it. It’s hard to believe I was a true believer for so many years.
The most significant event in history and you dismiss it as pointless Mankind rejected god and in his love he has given an opportunity for reconciliation for those who would like it The only person in history without sin dies for everyone else and ( briefly ) is resurrected in physical form for our Justification before assessing to heaven and allowing the holy spirit to take over to be in various places simultaneously .why is it not pointless.Because salvation is a free gift to those who are humble enough to receive it by the grace of what Jesus did
@@davidhanson888 The point was that prior to that the Jews where giving sacrifice after sacrifice because there was no perfect lamb .If Jesus was anyone else your comment would be right.But the one and only perfect person ( god ) came down and was sacriced in human form but raised for our Justification because of his perfection .After a short visit he ascended to heaven.WHY because salvation is a free from god to those who believe
@davidmccarroll8274 yes. I know. I've been there done that. I've prayed that prayer of salvation. I know the essence of it. Been a chirstian for 40 years. This is all for show. Death and resurrection is pointless because he is god. He can die and live 10,000 times for all he wants. It doesn't matter. If maybe Jesus didn't resurrect then it would have had more substance. I believe you have strong faith. I'm happy for you. If the concept of salvation is where you find solace, then good for you. There's nothing wrong in believing in it if you feel like it. I believed in it before until I woke up realizing that's it is a hoax in my perspective. That's why I left the faith.
@@davidhanson888 If Jesus had not resurrected then you would never of heard of him Christianity would not of spread around the world.When Christ died the deciples were afraid and hiding and lost confidence The resurrection proved to them that his claims were genuine and gave them the faith to spread the gospel and when neccessary die for their faith .All the best god bless !!!
I recently became a deist, and someone from one my Facebook groups recommended one of your videos. After looking at that, I’ve looked at more of your videos.. I’m glad I did! Makes so much sense! I was raised Catholic, went to traditional Christian churches, etc. I’ve finally came to the realization that I was only believing what I was raised to believe! Then, I started thinking for myself, I’ve never felt more at peace..
Just started watching this and your opening line was brilliant. It boggles my mind that so many people (Christians) still just see it as, "He sacrificed his life for all of us!" without really taking that concept apart.
It never made sense to me, raised Presbyterian, until I started reading about pagan dying vegetation gods. Then it made sense: dying vegetation creates the compost that is fertile earth. But the whole thing about the sin wipe-out just seemed-- weird.
I'm very glad more people are discussing the incoherence of the atonement. For some reason I didn't think about it for years, but when you try to justify it, no one theory works. This is why William Lane Craig tries to stitch together bits and pieces of all the different atonement theories, and he just ends up with a jumbled mess.
Nothing about the story would make any sense if J-e-s-u-s wasn't who He said He was. He had to be human in order to die; He had to be G-o-d in order to be perfect. These two things together are what make Him the perfect sacrifice. The b-i-b-l-e is full of prerequisites you have to understand in order to understand deeper things. People of course, skip these steps, then wonder why they're confused. They try to do algebra before doing 2+2=4, and get angry at why they can't figure out what "x" is. You problem is that you're confused about the Atonement because you're confused about Who and what G-o-d is or why He even made us.
@@auh2o148 Why are you afraid to write Jesus, Bible, or God here? Is there something about putting these specific words into electronic text on a website on the internet that is verboten? Also Jesus didn't "die" in the way humans do, so you're wrong there, he didn't "die" for our sins, he was temporarily made unliving and then returned to living 3 days later according to your "b-i-b-l-e"
@blw4089 just letting fools like you know who I'm referring to by using the only spelling you'refamiliar with, while at the same time not giving credence to that false name. Is that easy enough for you to understand?
I watch a lot of people with similar content to yours and I think that you are definitely going to take off as much as an atheist channel can in a Christian world lmao I appreciate your hard work and dedication in making this and the many other videos you have! I wish you and the community all the best!
This is not a Christian world. This fellow is very ignorant of Christian faith, and how we actually have our scripture, and many other things. Which is not surprising. Furthermore, utilizing a Catholic to explain Christian beliefs is not accurate either, since we do not consider them to be for a very large number of reasons.
I think what they mean is this country or the west. In that regard, it very much is. You cannot even cone close to winning an election if you dont profess faith in the abrahamic god because of how much of the population also believes. Theres so many examples to show that christians are not the suppressed class they claim at this point. Also using a catholic should be a non issue for this. Almost all sects of christianity believe in the literal death and resurrection of jesus as a payment for sins. I was clear to clarify this in the video.
i agree, shroom.... he gets straight to the point and is well spoken. lots of the channels have five minutes of intro/cartoons/ drama music etc.. and although there's nothing wrong with it i'm more of a just the facts ma'am, when it comes to this topic
@@zap0918 ignorant of Christian faith? 🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣 Dude, he knows it perfectly well. So do I. And if you think that Catholic priest was saying anything different than an Evangelical pastor, then you’re blinded by your anti-Catholicism.
Years ago I had some time while recovering from a broken heel bone and decided to research what it was about blood that was so significant in the bible and came away grossed out and left empty handed. There is no good reason for blood sacrifices or someone dying for all. It’s a really bad concept. I was already sour on the trinity thing so it wasn’t too much longer I got the will to break away and am very glad I did. Things look different from this side!
So this comment isn't about the contents of the video. I just want to point out that, 1) you are a content monster and, 2) the fact that you take the time to put in subtitles is amazing. Thank you.
The Christian salvation narrative is a big nonsensical mess. It comes across as a product of too many writers with different ideas resulting in a self contradicting and confusing conclusion.
@@fionasmith6868 Thanks for bringing up another weird aspect of Christian salvation - It's not enough that Jesus died for our sins, no you have to BELIEVE that he died for our sins in order to be saved. I think I know those sort of miracles that require belief in order to have an effect. We usually refer to them as superstition.
My new favorite Atheist podcaster!!Love your channel, brother. 40 years I was a devout Catholic. I deconverted about 7 years ago. Thank you for giving us all a voice! You give me solace.
I left that place in 2020 and I felt chains lifted off my wrists and ankles. It has been hard cause my spouse is still Catholic but I will never go back to that shit show
@@TheSuperTeacherStudent what keeps you married to her ? you should be looking for more sexual partners. life is very short. now that the "chains lifted of your wrists and ankles" make the most of it.
I usually hold the position that since Genesis demonstrably didn't happen, then there was no fall from grace, then there was no original sin, then there was no flood, then there was no sacrifice on the cross, then there was no salvation.
My biggest problem, about having the sacrifice to prove love. Is that it is not actual love, when it was made conditionally. The only way to receive said love, and the benefit of the sacrifice is to give your life to Christ. If even those that reject God, were saved thanks to the sacrifice then it is love. But as it is, it is both abusive and not love AT ALL. Imagine someone puts their life in danger to save their son, that does show love. But then, this person goes, I made the greatest sacrifice to prove my love to you, and from now on you have to live for me. Your whole life has to be dedicated in worshipping me, you have to follow my every command. Because I made this sacrifice, therefore you owe me for life. Otherwise, I will torture for eternity.
You have the free will to choose.gid loves people and wants them for companionship .Most people reject it and god will not force people into his presence in heaven against their will
@@annemurphy8074 If this is a description of god it is warped!!!.God loves people.The problem is he is perfect and we are sinners.He loves us but that does not mean he is a god of justice also .If he did not love us he would not have sent Jesus .He came down to face the punishment on the cross for our sins.Imaginw being in court and a Judge fines you One million pounds Stirling .Then a stranger walks in and pays your fine for you .People have the choice to accept the gift be free of the Judgement and be god's friend .If you choose to reject that then you are left facing the penalty .Your Choice. God bless
You say that if Jesus sacrifice saved those who reject god as well then that would be love .I disagree .( analogy ) If a man loves a women and she says no thankyou I just want us to be friends it would not be love for him to continually chase her .Although he is hurting the loving thing for him to do is to accept and respect her wishes .In the same way god is not going to force you into his presence against your will .At the same time if you change your mind and want to have god in your life he will accept you with open arms.
Incredible! You have just explained what I have always doubted about the Christian faith. Thank you for helping us realize we aren't crazy and religion is just fiction and has always been. Loving your channel and insights. Keep up the great work!
@@MindShift-Brandon Do you actually read the comments and see what horrible epithets and accusations are being hurdled against Goodness Incarnate? Do you see the crowd you have gathered screaming "crucify Him!"? Shame on you. Again and again, shame on you.
@@jackhiggins3936 "persecution complex"-- see also: Treece, Patricia "A Man for Others: Maximilian Kolbe the Saint of Auschwitz" HarperCollins, 1982 Bernard, Jean "Priestblock 25487: a Memoir of Dachau" A. Pustet, 1962
Holy cow the bars you just spit in the first 40 seconds sums up exactly why I started doubting and am leaving the faith. Straight fire 🔥 you don't see that amount of clear and concise diction often!
You are amazing ❤ thank you for putting everything I’ve ever wondered and questioned into words and made soo much sense of it all! No one in my life has ever acknowledged the points I make bc they are scared to face the truth. I’m so glad I found you!❤
Assuming he actually died and all that... where did Jesus' body go? The spirit goes to heaven not the body, but his body was missing? Also, it clearly states Mary and the women never told anyone the body was missing (literally how the story ends), so how do we know it was ever missing? Additionally, it states that other believers rose from the dead and presented to the people in town, so zombie apocalypse? What happened to them after they came back to life? Another question - I dont know the exact books/chapters - but in one it says they ate passover before he died, but later it says it was after he died... So which is it and was there cannibalism involved? Is that why Communion is the "body and blood of jesus christ"? And further more, why would god WANT this? (You touched on this). Why did he choose human sacrifice? You've addressed all my my other thoughts on this topic beautifully.
Absolutely Brilliant!! From the time that I was 9 this whole Original Sin concept has seemed absurd. And the fact that you nailed it, and included the absurdity of Jesus being God made this the best 23 minutes I have ever spent on the internet.
Your opening line captures the absurdity of the basis for Christianity so succinctly. Well done. I started drifting away from church and religion in my 20's and for a long time considered religion to be somewhat benign and fine for those who I had left behind. I have come to realize that religion does a great amount of harm and I support anyone who like you seek to expose what nonsense it really is.
When I really started reading the Bible it became clear that this whole book was written by men. Only men could make-up so many stories with so many nonsensical plots. It’s a book of fiction with a smattering of true locations.
Hey man I said thanks before, but I wanted to say thanks again. I was raised fundamentalist, and I'm so so grateful that you are able to eloquently put this all into words. Means a lot. Keep. It. Up.
Appreciate that big time. Its a unique place we came from and so hard to shake. Glad these videos are resonating and appreciate you taking the time to say hey and thanks.
@@MindShift-Brandon Even if you don't come from a fundamentalist church, this deep programming is hard to shake -- it's also in disguise in our schools, businesses, professions, laws, and social customs.
Absolutely, PERFECT!!! I like to point out that Jesus told the man on the cross, "Today you will be with me in Paradise." Which means he really had a bad morning and 1/2 the afternoon, then, Paradise. Tough sacrifice and as you point out, completely unfair if it even was a sacrifice. Elsewhere in the Bible, god forgives people with no sacrifice. He just does it! As you well said, because it is written by men making up a story, it's full of nonsense. They were good at trying to make something that would sound impressive and important but it is full of holes, as you eloquently point out. I too couldn't see it, until one day that I could. If fell apart like a house of cards after that. My lifetime of indoctrination came to halt and left me sad for a long time. You are doing great work. Keep it up!
You brought up so many excellent points, including a few I'd never thought about. When I was a kid I could never understand where Christ "sacrificed" . . . if he was God on earth, then he could withstand anything. If not, he wasn't all powerful. And further, he knew the end game, so a lousy weekend would have been easy-peasy for him. No one was ever able to show me where he suffered let alone how his suffering was the most suffering ever. But I thought that so many adults all got this, and some of them were very intelligent people, so I assumed one day it would make sense to me. I've been around a lot of ministers and missionaries in my life and gone to an array of churches, and every single Christian has failed to explain this. Because it just doesn't make sense.
My thought is even if it was a major sacrifice, is it that impressive to sacrifice 1 life for the lives of millions? I would sacrifice myself to save millions of people. Maybe I'm too altruistic idk.
This is the 4th video I’ve watched from you and I can truly say that you’re one of the few creators who can circle in on the heart of each topic you discuss. Every video puts into words what I can’t sometimes. You’re on your way man! Keep up the good work
That may be the best 42 seconds of intro to any video EVER on the TH-cams! What a mouthful! I'll need to study it so I can recite it myself. The whole argument distilled. Great job!
Great video. One thing thing that always bothered me is the double standard. God tells us to just forgive those who sin against us. no revenge, no punishment, no justice, no blood sacrifice required. Yet HE requires complete vengeance, pouring our His wrath to the dregs on an innocent substitute. WTH? How is that fair or just or merciful or gracious? But if we challenge God's supposed goodness in any way, we are scolded "Who are you to talk back to God?" well, I'm me and I demand an answer. Crickets.
Yes, thank you for pointing out that double standard, you are perfectly correct. God commands us to forgive all others and to do so with no action taken by us against those others; Jawheh, on the other hand, is chompin' at the bit and drooling out of the corner of his mouth to finish the transaction with his hot wrath and vengeance poured out. This God of the Bible is a blind psychopath, he ought to take a look at himself in the mirror sometime.
Thank you for clearly showing what always lay in the back of my mind as a former church pastor of 26 years. I woke up in a classic mid-life crisis of belief and the catalyst for was the fact that Jesus gave up his weekend for our sins and that isn't a sacrifice supposed to stay dead. What kind of sacrifice is that? It wasn't. From there I was to be free and your putting this all together for me is simply done amazingly well. Thank you.....While it is easy to think that I wasted my youth in Christian fairytales, I could not be here if I had not been there.
I'm so sorry that you wasted 26 years of your life being a church pastor. Just goes to show how powerful the indoctrination is that comes with Christianity.
The glaring issue with the personal relationship claim is that not every human being is privy to these anecdotal experiences. If this god wanted to interact with us, and it is imperative that we spend quality time with it, then it would offer us incontestable clarity of its existence and desire for communication/relation; an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, all-benevolent god is more than capable.
Jesus's "sacrifice" (as they call it) wasn't impressive. He apparently knew he would rise 3 days later. We know of men that left their families to fight in war, not knowing they would return. Many didn't. That my friends, is sacrifice!
I had all these questions when I was 8, but it took me decades to cleanse myself completely of indoctrination. It makes you worry about other forms of indoctrination, such as political...
And a lot of political indoctrination rests on a foundation of religious indoctrination. I mean, our Western European education was born in and formed by the church. It has many of the same "fall in line and obey or be punished" structures of Abrahamic religion, certainly of Christianity.
As a child in Catholic school, we were made to close our eyes and imagine Jesus’ pain at the cross (also, burning in hell: imagine the flames consuming your feet then climbing over your body) and it often ended with “and the one driving the nails through his hands WAS YOU!” This started at age 6. It was extremely traumatizing. As for Jesus never having endured several kinds of suffering: painful periods. Something close to half of the human population will experience routinely. Inheriting forgiveness would even clinch the Christian message of Jesus as “the second Adam”.
@@MindShift-Brandon Agreed. In my case, it made me associate religion with childhood fears so that as soon as I hit 11, I could no longer at all believe. The fear of hell is right there with being afraid of the monster under the bed, it does not bother me. But I spent many sleepless nights as a child over this, had nightmares, developed terrible anxiety, night terrors galore...and all that did leave its toll, a toll that will last me the rest of my life. And that's the one life I do have, too.
@@sundayoliver3147 Yes. It is. The good thing is, it made me equate hell with childhood fears, like monsters under the bed. Very soon after I hit the double digits, there was no way I could even make myself believe in hell. But I can remember the fear and the almost nightly nightmares
Well thank you! This is really what I was thinking/feeling and putting away as “doubt”, questioning and looking for answers to questions my mind could not solve and religious leaders could not explain. Why they couldn’t do that? Because it just doesn’t add up! So thank you! Will definitely listen to more of your videos! They clear the fuzz!
My children never had to do anything to earn my love. Their mere existence was/is enough. If God is our father why wouldn’t he be the same as most earthly parents, like me? Never made sense to me. The other nonsensical thing to me was the sacrifice, even though it was a temporary one. So, God could speak a universe into existence but he couldn’t speak forgiveness into existence? Say what?? I’m with you on every point, Brandon! I really like forgiveness being inherited just like original sin - makes total sense.
@@ChrisSmith-xh9wbcool I accept that forgiveness! Thanks God! So I’m good now right? Wait what’s that? I’m not good yet? I forgot I have to now change my entire life to worship this god and follow all his rules and commandments and make everything about him for all of time. Thanks for that “free” gift of forgiveness God.
Yes a god who tells us we are wicked, and unworthy. Also a god who commands us to constantly praise and worship him. This narrative is all about fear and control, and nothing to do with love.
I AM angry at the churches etc. I,too, get very passionate about this subject. And everything you've said in this video makes LOGICAL SENSE. And even if you had NOT presented it with much emotion and passion, the contents of this video are cold hard FACTS!
Talking about Jesus living a perfect life reminds me of when I was a kid and would play Monopoly against myself and I would make up special rules so I could win by astronomical amounts 🤣
Just discovered your channel and am very impressed by the honesty and insight of this video. I was a fundamentalist evangelical for over 20 years and can SO relate to your discovery of how ridiculous it all is, how when you look at the development of salvation ideas it is SO obviously man-made. The very fact that there are SO many theories of the atonement, and no agreement about something so central after almost 2k years (!), is virtual proof positive of what you're claiming here. Well-done, and keep up the great work.
Hey, Tom, thank you much for these kind words and this encouragement. I am glad this resonated with you and that we have both come to see the truth. Appreciate you being here.
If you search hard enough, eventually you'll someone or something to agree with whatever your thought process is. What you should be searching for is the thought process behind how and why you're here.
I really appreciate the time and effort you have put into this. Your arguments are strong, your communication clear, and you have made tangible many of the weird thoughts and doubts and concerns I have had in recent years about the crucifixion.
The term 'Blood Magic' diminishes what the christian god wanted. It was 'Human Sacrifice'. Much like using The term 'sexual assult' to describe 'rape'.
If Christians truly believe in the power of Jesus’ blood sacrifice, then they should believe that there is still power in either animal sacrifice or even human sacrifice today. And if sacrificing a “blameless” human is even more powerful, then it makes sense that there is still immense power in sacrificing a virgin or a baby. It’s sick to think about, but this is the depravity of the Christian message.
@@Viekoda If Christians really walked their talk, abortion would be okay. These babies aren't BORN yet, so NOT born of original sin! These souls automatically go straight to heaven!
wow! I had begun seeing by the Old Testament that the N.T. was thoroughly contrived. This video gives me a LOAD more justification and is so easy to follow. It's like people have been blind to what's right in front of their eyes all along, in plain sight. I have to share this!
It's hard to believe as I scroll through the comments that there are no Christians trying to debunk some of these points. Maybe there aren't many watching or they are afraid of making a weak argument. Where's the fight, people? Just because someone can point out inconsistencies and impossibilities in a text cobbled together over centuries by different people with different agendas does not mean that you throw away the concept of religion with all of the psychological benefits it brings. It is obvious that there is a Creator and we all know it either through instinct, logic, or emperical science (which is what brought me around). We need to be thinking about our relationship with that Creator and each other and not behaving as the rest of the animals in the world, because unlike them we have a half spirit component. We cannot do as we please on this earth without consequence, because after this life is over we will be shown how our actions affected others, intended and unintended. This instant replay concept has been testified to in accounts of those who have been temporarily on the other side of life and have come back - and I point to science again to show that the sheer mass of data that has been collected from all over the world by people that do not know each other suggests a high probability of truth in these accounts. So I implore everybody to please not watch videos like this and live as if a) there is no God and b) you can walk around with a snarky, arrogant disregard of Him and His followers. I do not see that working out well for you if you do. So I do not have to believe that Noah's ark could hold pairs of every animal on the planet, including dinosaurs, to be a theist. And I will acknowledge that Jesus made some very confusing statements, especially when he referred to himself as God, that divide people to this day. You know, his disciples could have left the part out of the story where Jesus made his despairing cry from the cross, asking why God had forsaken him. If they were making up the story they surely would have. But I am glad they did not - it makes him human like the rest of us, but obviously something much more. I mean, if I was walking around the streets and I told people to quit their jobs, drop their tools, and follow me across the countryside, they would not do it! Everyone should listen to what he had to say - so many of his concepts have helped civilization. He ended plural marriage, ended ritual sacrifice, was probably the first women's rights activist, denounced stonings, denounced the capitalistic greed of the Pharisees church (oh, would he hate some of these fabulously wealthy churches today, even the ones in his name), declared equality of dignity for every human regardless of wealth or poverty, contributed 43 parables with teaching more clear than anything in the Old Testament, and my personal favorite, The Golden Rule. Every religion has some version of that last one but Jesus may have been the first to articulate it. Anyway, the defense rests but I should touch on the resurrection real quick because after all it was one of the main thrusts of the video. The main reason that people followed Jesus was because of his miracles, which would exhaust him in his travels. I believe the resurrection was an example of saving the best for last, because he was clearly all the way dead and yet he came back for 40 more days and appeared to hundreds of people, enough to ensure they would talk about it forever. I think it was as simple as that and not exactly a sacrifice in the way that the gentleman from St. Michaels was laying it out. In fact, his wording was very strange and not helpful. But if I start twisting off on the modern church I could be here all night. I do appreciate how this particular atheist made an intelligent case that was not dripping with venom and hatred for all who practice religion, as some other videos do. In fact he seems to feel sorry for us and our inability to believe that the universe exploded into existence without any cause. And his debate points hold up very well against any biblical literalist. But if anyone is on the fence out there don't be persuaded by all of these people picking the Bible apart for being exactly literal to the point where you believe in nothing.
Every Christian should just listen and reflect on at least the last 5 minutes (17:40 to the end). If they still can't see the glimmer of a problem with their belief system then logic and rational thought have truly passed them by.
15:47 Don't forget old age - if the story was true, Jesus never suffered any of the pains and sorrows of aging. I love this entire video - the transaction Christians believe they needed and received has always baffled me.
Exactly. What an inefficient, flawed, sick plan to “save” us from a place god didn’t have to make in the first place. If god wants us to be better people why doesn’t he just make himself physically known to everyone, physically live with us like a parent and then advise, guide and direct our every act? This hide and seek, elusive, invisible being who plays favorites is useless! Then there is the entire sadistic veneration of torture and death that is just plain sick. No one worships Jeffrey Dahmer - why worship god? Two of a kind.
Also, see the increasing Christian comments as a win, my friend. What made them watch an atheist video in the first place? It means you hit a nerve. You are putting a stone in their shoe. For all you know, you could be the first domino in their deconversion process. So negative attention is still attention! Keep up the good work! Doing God's work 😉
So God sacrificed God, to God, so God could circumvent a law that God wrote, allowing God to save us all from the wrath of God. It makes me wonder what God's punishment against us all have been, if God had refused to sacrifice God to God?
I have wondered what was the precise time Jebus decided to become undead. If he was dead, how was it possible to will himself to live again? Also, Christians claim that Jebus defeated death, however people are still dying to this very day. And since his stated purpose was to suffer the wages of sin (eternal death), by returning to life he effectively undid whatever was supposed to be accomplished by him dying. His body was not charred, which should have been a consequence of being cast into The Lake Of Fire. Also, if Jebus was god incarnate, yet experienced death, who was in charge during his absence? If Jebus = God but god is eternal, then Jebus’ dying contradicts the eternality of god. So either Jebus did not experience death or god is not eternal. Additionally, if sinners are conscious of their eternal torment then they aren’t really dead. So many illogical and patently nonsensical assertions in this religion!
Very concise, well thought out and plainly explained summary of the most ridiculous story ever made up to be taken seriously plus the mental gymnastics believers have to display to make it something good that makes sense. I really like this presentation. Subscribed
Great points. I think it’s also important to recognize that many people suffered crucifixion for causes that they were willing to die for. Without the direct connection to God and the promise of exaltation.
@sundayoliver3147 the B-i-b-l-e says the redeemed of the earth will judge even angels; then it asks, 'How is it that you can't judge simple matters?' You're question is beyond silly - it's just plain stupid! Judges uphold a standard; a judgment is a decision. You're a judge for whatever nonsense you believe in. Furthermore, you make judgments every waking second of every day, like if you're going to continue breathing, or if you're going to get out of bed. Smh
As someone deconstructing and reworking my faith, I find your videos very helpful, as it offers a very different perspective than the Catholic one I grew up with. Thanks for your boldness and authenticity. I think the main difference I have is that Catholic theology is very much a faith + works framework. Personally, where I think there are logical issues is that...people don't need to believe in the resurrection, understand the Trinity, or participate in the Eucharist to do good works. I mean, in my experience religion can be a tool to enforce morality, but I have met plenty of non-religious people who are moral because of logic and empathy. So if people don't believe, but overall live a life of compassion and effort toward justice, can they not be saved as well? Perhaps the biggest difference between religious and non-religious morality is in the area of sex, but oh boy that is a can of worms that can be deconstructed for days and days and days. Anyway, thanks for giving me much to consider.
My advice to you is to throw the religious stuff out, and just follow The Truth. No matter who you are, where you're from, or what you believe - The Truth is The Truth, and it's up to every individual to cling to it.
Jesus wasn't the first and only perfect man. Job 1.1 says: "There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.". And look what happened to that poor guy. Jesus didn't have to suffer the loss of his wife and children and all his possessions either. Oh but God gave him a new wife, and new kids. So what? Job wanted his original wife and kids back. So sickening.
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If you offer something to someone with no strings attached, it's a gift.
If there are conditions that go with it, it's a transaction.
If there are threats to it, that elevates it to coercion.
Perfectly stated! Love it!!
Anything that is full of threats, fantastical promises, hinged on total unquestioning belief is for the weak minded.
It's Jehovah and Don Corleone. "I'll make you an offer you can't refuse!" ;-)
Well said true
😆😂🤣@@ertymexx
A God dying for a weekend for his followers is same as me sacrificing myself for my friend in a game where I'll respawn in 3 second.
"Time for another round of golf!"
Not even a weekend. Friday afternoon to Sunday morning. Barely a day and a half.
YOU aren't from infinity. You just don't know what you don't know... what you don't want to know. It's your choice. GOD has never robbed you of your free will.
@@undignified2843 God robs every victim of free will when he refuses to restrict the free will of predators even to the point of limiting how much harm they can do to others. He gives unlimited free will to pedophiles, rapists, and serial killers but none at all to the victims even just to protect themselves from such violation. An all-powerful God in this universe is no one's friend except abusers'.
Yeah, Try adding on the scourging and the crucifixion and see how ready you'll be to go through the process. And bad news dude. You'll not be rising from dead
I confronted a Street Preacher who said Jesus died for my sins. I said, "so Jesus is dead." He said no he has resurrected m, he has risen. So I said, "Jesus went to a Paradise Kingdom and became ruler of the entire universe for my sins; it sounds like Jesus should be thanking me!" 🤣
😂
😂
@MindShift-Brandon with regards to Jesus being sinless please consider that he was born in the lineage of prostitutes. So Mary carried impure blood... Mary's blood mixed with Jesus blood...so Jesus by definition cannot be pure! Unless he is born to a tree. Also this is not an ultimate sacrifice. There were many who sacrificed their own kids. If one sacrifices hair, it is not called ultimate because it grows back! But if one sacrifices let's say one's tongue, then it is a higher order sacrifice than hair. How can you call Jesus sacrifice ultimate where he could get himself back to life with no sweat!. Was he cheating his own system????
Idiots
@@schnellster1 You really don't understand the incarnation do you? The blood of a child is unique to the child and has nothing to do with the blood from the mother. But nice try.
Amazingly, my Mom was able to show how much she loved and valued me without having to harm herself or others. I guess she could do what god could not.
Exactly, a true savior...first of all would have come as soon as Adam and Eve were tricked and stand in the breach against Satan if Satan couldn't just be banned from the natural world and second, he would simply stay here...and live among us...continually performing obvious miracles and explaining everything from the 'horses mouth' so to speak. He would be everywhere all at once showing everyone the way, rescuing kidnap victims, stopping shootings, healing sick kids, warning of impending natural disasters...essentially doing what almost any other human would do if they were able.
As a child/teenager, if I worked up the courage to raise the kind of concerns you are addressing here, my pastor would use thought stopping statements on me. He would say, "Oh, you're overthinking that." or "You haven't thought that through enough yet." The consequence of this was that I rarely asked questions, and I had to struggle with hard questions about faith in the solitude of my own mind. This led to deep depression at age 19.
It's very cathartic to view your content now. You openly, unashamedly, and logically address many of the same problems I have thought about for years. Thank you for helping me see that I'm not crazy.
I am so glad to help normalize this for you. In truth, its helping me in the same way…hearing back from so many of you. Thanks for the kind words too!
I've had a lot of family and friends who use the thought-stopping technique of: "you're trying to argue with God, and because his thoughts are higher than your thoughts and his ways are mysterious, you *must* be wrong."
My pastor gave me constant "it's God's will", "be a the bible says so", and "we can't know God's plan". 🙄
Yeah. At thirteen I was told by one elder in our very fundamentalist church that when I ask inquisitive questions, it's the "hissing of the snake." A good way to shut a kid up, for sure.
@lidipops940 thats insane!
I sometimes attend a Presbertarian church with my family as a polite gesture. I had a proud moment with my 5 YO grandson last weekend. He was singing the songs displayed on the screens, then he stopped and said, "Wait a minute!. This song doesn't make sense. I don't want to be covered in blood!." If a kid can see through this nonsense, we should be ashamed as adults for being so hoodwinked. Admittedly, Joey is not your typical 5 year old. The people around us did kind of laugh uncomfortably. Try explaining a death cult to a little kid. I dare you.
This is why The Emperor's New Clothes is my favorite folktale. Takes a child to declare the truth all the adults have done their best to ignore.
Lol, what sort of lyrics are those haha?!
Unfortunately way too common of lyrics in many churches.
That's great. Remember someone also dismantled this "You're washed in the blood of Christ" line, saying: In case you didn't notice, blood doesn't remove stains. Blood makes stains.
Ok ... but WHY are you subjecting your grandson to child abuse by forcing him to go to church ??? That's not polite to anyone - it's abusive
Christian: "Jesus died for you!"
Me: "Wait... what do you mean, 'for' me? How exactly did his death benefit me in any way?"
Christian: "It removed your guilt. The guilt you inherited from when two people who couldn't distinguish right from wrong (because they were designed that way by a sky wizard) ate a magic fruit that they weren't supposed to but it was put into a place accessible to them for some reason and a talking snake told them to eat it, and they were punished by the sky wizard (the very same one who designed them and thus knew they couldn't know that what they were doing was wrong). Sure, it happened long before you were born and you couldn't possibly be responsible, but you are because the sky wizard said so, and Jesus removed that guilt by dying. ...kinda. He only died temporarily, and also he didn't really remove the guilt, you have to recognize that he removed it or it'll still be there and you'll be tortured for eternity by a system that the sky wizard made. The sky wizard told me to say he loves you, by the way."
Me: *dial 911* "Yes, I'm standing next to someone who is having some kind of psychotic break."
It really is insane once you zoom out!
Come on Jesus Sacrificed an entire weekend for you thats a really big sacrifice
It’s so easy not to believe in a god and salvation scheme that you describe in your own terms completely incomprehensible from an actual Christian standpoint.
You have created a recursive Confirmation Bias upon a Straw Man.
Pathetic.
@@frankchinembiri1308 Try saying that to your girlfriend.
Instant fail...
Religion is the way consciousness is developed. The old stories don't work anymore, we need new ones. But prayer and the God theory is still indispensable.
12 year old me to Sunday School teacher: "What did you mean by Jesus died for my sins?"
SS teacher: "Jesus died to pay your debt. And now you owe Jesus. Therefore, follow Him."
me: "A debt? Pay him? I don't have a job!"
Thanks for making this video. Took the words right out of my mouth. Religious doctrine is truly crazy-making.
Are you retarded or something? That's not what it means
Bad teacher. A knowledgeable Christian would tell you that you don't owe Jesus. You are correct.
@@strangelaw6384 "knowledgeable Christian" - 🤪
@@mrsatire9475 knowledgeable in the bible. As in, knows what it says and what it doesn't say.
@@strangelaw6384 That's not a Christian.
I love spending my Sundays listening to intelligent, insightful people debunking religion. Thank you!
My pleasure. Glad to spend it with you.
I go to mass
Debunking which religion and how is it debunked?
He debunked his own strawman of what he thinks Christians believe. If it makes you feel better, I don't believe in the god he's owning here either.
@@awm9290 How is he wrong about it? I'm interested.
None of us (including me until recently) seemed to realize that being tortured for several hours, losing life for only 3 days, and then coming alive and ascending into heaven is NOT "dying!"
He sacrificed a perfect human life that was entitled to eternal life as a human.
You're missing the point that His body was dead. However long someone is dead is irrelevant; it's the fact that they were dead - it happens in the emergency room all the time. Besides, you just glossing over every torturous thing He endured before He died shows a complete lack of understanding. You discard it as if you could go through the same any day and twice on sunday. You'd be crying like a baby if someone just beat your feet with a board. Heck, you'd be crying if someone kicked you out of your house.
@auh2o148 many people were crucified. Many people even today die worse deaths all the time. Dying is not the point. Staying dead should have been. Its not a sacrifice. God didn’t lose anything. When i go on a work trip for three days. My family misses me. If i died. They would never see me again. One is a long weekend, the other is actual loss.
@MindShiftSkeptic like I said, the point is His body died. If you drop dead right now, as far as anyone else is concerned - you're done. If our Creator chose to resurrect you for some reason, it wouldn't negate the fact that you were dead - even if it's only for a few minutes, let alone 3 days & nights. You guys are conveniently skipping steps so that you don't have to acknowledge the fact that Someone you don't know died for you. This is why people who deny His suffering & death or the importance of His death will themselves suffer eternal death and suffering. He will not be mocked, and His *sacrifice* will not go unappreciated - with the doubters living to brag about it.
@@auh2o148He didn't die then, did he. He went, knowingly, to heaven for eternity. That's not dying!
And that point about why doesn’t everyone automatically inherit forgiveness in the same way we inherit original sin is a really interesting point as well. Why is there another clause of “believe in him”, which requires being in the right location at the right time to hear the right message about the right diety and then to choose to believe in it or not
Actually, that's a good point. Let me give you the answer: because it doesn't benefit the church
I never understood why a God that apparently existed for eternity, made the decision to impregnate just one human female, in one small location of the Earth, to produce a son to save mankind. Why would God not impregnate 30 or more human females to create multiple sons to spread the message of God? One or two in Asia, one or two for Europe, one for Scandinavia, one for North America, one for South America, one for Australia and New Zealand, a couple for Africa and a few more to spread around.
The one son he did create was by all accounts just a very normal human child until he disappeared from history at around age 12. When Jesus did return as an adult, only then did he set about the teach the words of God to the people and that only lasted for three years until God called him home. Why would the eternal God choose his son to be sacrificed after only three years of teaching, when the lessons taught had only reached about One percent of the human beings on the planet? A few thousand years, at least, is only a blink of the eye to an eternal God, so why isn't Christ still here 2,300 years later, working to finish the job he started. It's a great little story until you apply a little reason to it.
You are my new favorite skeptic. I walked away 26 years ago, and I only had a couple of books to help pad my fall. I was brought up the same as you. I even wrote 100s of poems about my love for Jesus. I constantly cried for people's souls and tried to help save as many as I could. Then one day... hmmm... this is going to be long. You may skip it for that reason. Well, to put it simply, a terrible tsunami hit, and thousands died. Pat Robinson said it was because of their practice of vodo. I was sick to my stomach and I decided then and there that I could no longer follow a God that I was nicer than. It wasn't long before I was singing to myself, "I was blind but now I see." I HAVE HAD 26 years of more peace and love in my heart than I had the first 32 as a Born-Again Christain. Oh, there is so much more I could say, but I have to stop. Anyway, thank you!!! You are saying so many things I had started to understand myself through the years and teaching me so much that I wish I had known. I love your channel. I'm so glad I found you. If only I'd had you 30 years ago, my years of fear would have been cut in half. Keep it up and Thank You!
Thank you for sharing! I get and feel all of that!
@@MindShift-Brandon because you responded, a patron I shall be! 😀
Me as well. Bachelor of theology, 10 years of missionary work. Then at 62 realized how absurd it all was, and now a happy atheist till I die!!
Similar story with me. But I wish I was still ignorant of it all, since I realised gods are bronze age explanations for existence I feel whats the point, the fact is we are currently top of the food chain but we will die out and another animal will be top of it
Pat is wrong for saying that, because Jesus tore down the assumed connection between natural disasters and sin.
"Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them-do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.” Luke 13:1-5. Whose word are you going to believe, Pat or Jesus?
What kind of deal is it that Jesus died for a weekend and was raised, only to ascend to never-ending peace, but each one of us will be subjected to eternal, infernal torture if we don't accept the so-called gift of grace.
Dude, your videos are so easy to binge, i.e. very thought-provoking, wise and learned, and quite accessible. Thank you for doing what you do.
Ben, thank you man. Appreciate you being here and all your wonderful comments!
@@MindShift-Brandon you're welcome, Brandon! Keep up the great work, man.
@@MindShift-Brandon God confirms the faith that we have to believe (trust) the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) when God does this it puts an end to having to continue to believe by faith.
I no longer believe by faith that God exists, that I am saved, and that I have a relationship with God because as a true born again Christian I know such a thing beyond all doubt.
That's how I know that all ex-Christians were never true born again Christians to begin with.
@@danielblair4413 classic no true Scotsman fallacy. And no, just because you’re convinced of something doesn’t mean you “know” it. It’s still just your belief system.
So if believing in the gospels means you don’t have to solely believe in god on faith, with only the account of the gospels to go on, don’t you just have faith in a book instead now ?
@@krylich5702 says: *classic no true Scotsman fallacy.*
There is no such thing as a "No true Scotsman" fallacy because the bible defines exactly what you must be in order to be a true Christian and if you are NOT that then you are NOT a true Christian.
What a true Christian must be is born again in the spirit and if you are NOT then you are NOT a true Christian.
When one is born again in the spirit, they know such a thing beyond all doubt just like you know beyond all doubt that you have been born the first time in the flesh.
*And no, just because you’re convinced of something doesn’t mean you “know” it. It’s still just your belief system.*
It's a belief system to you, but it's NOT a belief system to me.
Something that is known beyond all doubt is no longer a belief due to being known beyond all doubt.
*So if believing in the gospels means you don’t have to solely believe in god on faith, with only the account of the gospels to go on, don’t you just have faith in a book instead now?*
I never believed in the existence of a creator by faith because evidence and logical reasoning led me to the conclusion that a creator in general existed.
When I believed (trusted) the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) I believed that the creator in general that I believed in was the father of Jesus.
As someone raised in Britain in an admittedly atheist home the cynical person in me says that the entire message of God and Jesus was shaped over thousands of years by the priesthood for one purpose and one purpose alone. To control the populace. When only the priesthood could actually read the holy book (in this case the Bible) it's incredibly easy for them to control the narrative which is why they so stringently opposed the Bible being translated into English, it cost them control. Now anyone can read a copy of the Bible and ask questions that the priesthood doesn't like. IMO Christianity is simply one of the oldest cults still existing but its very age and how it has engrained itself into society is what gives it legitimacy.
It’s all abrahamic religions. Once you see it, you can’t un-see it and the lie’s become more and more obvious.
There was never a time when only the priesthood could read the bible.
There are a number of partial Old English Bible translations (from the Latin) surviving, including the Old English Hexateuch, Wessex Gospels and the Book of Psalms, partly in prose and partly in a different verse version. Others, now missing, are referred to in other texts, notably a lost translation of the Gospel of John into Old English by the Venerable Bede, which he is said to have completed shortly before his death around the year 735. Alfred the Great had a number of passages of the Bible circulated in the vernacular about 900, and in about 970 an inter-linear translation was added in red to the Lindisfarne Gospels.[20] These included passages from the Ten Commandments and the Pentateuch, which he prefixed to a code of laws he promulgated around this time. In approximately 990, a full and freestanding version of the four Gospels in idiomatic Old English appeared, in the West Saxon dialect; these are called the Wessex Gospels. According to the historian Victoria Thompson, "although the Church reserved Latin for the most sacred liturgical moments almost every other religious text was available in English by the eleventh century".[21]
After the Norman Conquest, the Ormulum, produced by the Augustinian friar Orm of Lincolnshire around 1150, includes partial translations of the Gospels and Acts of the Apostles from Latin into the dialect of East Midland. The manuscript is written in the poetic meter iambic septenarius.
Richard Rolle of Hampole (or de Hampole) was an Oxford-educated hermit and writer of religious texts. In the early 14th century, he produced English glosses of Latin Bible text, including the Psalms. Rolle translated the Psalms into a Northern English dialect, but later copies were written in Southern English dialects. Around the same time, an anonymous author in the West Midlands region produced another gloss of the Psalms - the West Midland Psalms.
In the early years of the 14th century, a French copy of the Book of Revelation was anonymously translated into English, and there were English versions of various French paraphrases and moralized versions.
In the late 14th century, John Wycliffe and perhaps Nicholas Hereford produced the first complete English language Bible. Wycliffe's Bible was revised in the last years of the 14th century, resulting in two major editions, the second more numerous than the first, both circulating widely despite their official prohibition at the Oxford Synod.
@@tomasrocha6139 In Medieval times, most churchgoers were illiterate. That's why Catholic churches have so much imagery and statuary: they told the stories the priests wanted the flock to be impressed with without words.
If only the elite can read, having something written in the language you speak doesn't mean much about availability for most people. And the versions you're describing is before the time of the printing press, when only rare manually-copied versions were available-- to the few who were wealthy enough to afford them. And able to read them.
A sensible and well-written comment, apart from the entirely incorrect use of the word "cult" to describe Christianity. It is not acknowledged to be a cult by any qualified people with whom Im familiar. Whatever right or wrong exists in it, it is not a cult.
I came up with an analogy to make a point I rarely see made.
"Imagine there's a King and his people. It started off with little things. He would hold assemblies, and he couldn't get anyone to listen to his speeches. They would interrupt him, throw food at him, and just show a general disdain for his authority. It quickly escalated and even the most sensible rules he would issue would be broken. The people would steal, kill, and rape as much as they could.
Eventually the King had enough. He sent his guards to round up all the food in the kingdom. He told the people that if they wanted the food, they would need to find a virgin, and sacrifice her at his feet. The only problem was, no virgins remained in the kingdom. The people came to the King and pleaded with him for food.
The King finally came up with a solution. He would sacrifice his daughter so the people could eat again. Several people were confused by this solution, but the most sycophantic of the people readily praised the King for this act of love."
It's amazing how easy it is to see the flaw when you personify the actions of a deity. The king has the power to release the food. He has the power to revoke the demand for the sacrifice. He doesn't need to sacrifice his child to meet his own demands.
Christianity would have us believe that meeting the demands he made by sacrificing his child is an act of love. It isn't. It's just murder to appease himself, and the fact that it's his own child makes it more disturbing, not more loving.
Jesus: "Before Abraham was, I Am."
God sacrificed himself
I've met a few people who actively pushed the whole "I'm so unworthy of his love" thing as if it were a good mentality. They couldn't comprehend that it was self demeaning and contradictory, they just thought it was a fanatical form of being humble or something, ironically enough. And not one of them saw a problem with it, although a few clearly were doing their best not to think about it. It's alien to me how they live with themselves.
I still hear it at my church regularly, and it's like nails on a chalkboard. You'll never hear a church greeter talk like this, but 20 minutes later you'll hear it from the stage, that you don't deserve love, life, or forgiveness. It's said so often people don't notice it.
I agree with everything you said. To add to it:
The notion that we should or even can absolve guilty person A of wrongdoing by punishing innocent person B is a perversion of justice. It's nonsensical, unwise, counterproductive for society, and-to my moral intuitions-immoral. Any God who employs such a system would be unworthy of praise.
Guilty person A is absolved God sacrificing himself 😂 LOL
Because he created the rules he's the only acceptable penance
One day my daughter, who was about 11, and I were walking by a church and they had John 3:16 on their board out front. My daughter said "He's God. He could have just made another son" . So many things wrong with the Christian story.
Yup! Kids are so pragmatic about these things unless or until indoctrinated.
Exactly. So he sends himself to earth to be betrayed ( he knew ahead of time) yet cried on the cross he put himself on that his father(him) has forsaken him(self). Get your programs out kids, can’t tell the players without a program. 🤡
It was good enough for Job!
@@artmeacademywiththesaltyse9537 No, Jesus never claimed to be God in fact he denied it. The deity of Christ is false, trintiy is false, modalism is false. Jesus called himself a "man" not a godman. John 8:40. Jesus called his Father "the only true God" John 17:3
@@shanederry2691 oh okay. Then that’s good. Thank you.
I heard a pastor equate it to a courtroom, where everyone is given a life sentence, but Jesus takes everyone's sentences on themself.
But his sentence is commuted to a day and a half (Friday afternoon to Saturday night). If that happened in real life, there would be chaos.
I've heard people say no one would be as selfless as Jesus.
I respond, "If you wouldn't spend six hours in pain followed by a day and a half dead, to save your spouse, or child, then you're a monster. It wasn't an especially impressive sacrifice."
Yea people died allot worse than that😭
As Matt Dilahunty said, "This wasn't a sacrifice. It was a bad weekend."
What a blood bender
😂😂😂
It wasn't even a weekend. Crucified on a Friday night, Saturday in the tomb, Sunday am, kerpow, I'm back !
If he'd resurrected Monday morning, it would at least be a WHOLE weekend out of eternity. God loved mankind so much, he spent almost a weekend pretending to be dead.
@@AndriyValdensius-wi8gwExactly. 😇🤣😇🤣
@AndriyValdensius-wi8gw 😂😂😂
The idea of Jesus being “a perfect human being” and realizing I’ll never live a perfect life like him just destroyed me when I held Christian beliefs. As a child I would lay in bed, unable to sleep, anxiety-ridden, thinking about this. No child should live that way.
Yup. It’s ridiculous!
Brandon.. Every point you made in this video is exactly what I’ve thought and wrestled with.. I’ve never heard someone break it all down in that short of time! After I lost my Mom.. I began to look deeper into these issues as I always just pushed them along. I can say losing a loved one shook me at the core, and thinking because they didn’t believe a certain set of propositions or claims, that there is more punishment or suffering and separation after death, than what they already went threw here.. it wakes you up.. And the underlining truth of all this shows itself! It’s really disgusting…
oh man, thanks for the feedback. So glad to be able to help articulate or organize your thoughts. Thanks for being here and sharing!
Arnold Schwarzenegger said heaven is just a fantasy.
@@mr.nonsense2900 He said "I'll be back."
I was raised an atheist, and when my mother died I had one Christian lady assure me that my mother was burning in hell because she hadn't been saved. I was eleven. Believe me, it gave me a real skepticism about religion.
Same here. Always wondered how God could die to appease himself. Always wondered why God expected us to be perfect (without sin), when we weren't created this way.
this the first video of yours i've watched, and as someone brought up in fundamentalist, charismatic christianity since infancy, you hit the nail on the head with this. i was always a curious child, and as i got older, my questions were met with being told that i "just needed to have faith and trust in the word." i went away for college and began to deconstruct. none of it made any sense and i was made to feel that since i didn't have "spiritual eyes to see the things of the spirit," i was somehow less than. never mind the fact that i identify as a genderqueer individual. i always felt more drawn to the energy and way of nature, and eastern philosophies like taoism. your video made me feel like i'm not crazy for not believing in this stuff anymore. so thank you.
Hey welcome! So glad to hear your story and that this channel is helping. Hope you like it here, and reach out if you need anything
@@MindShift-Brandon thanks man, binging your videos rn haha! you def have a new subscriber :)
"never mind the fact that i identify as a genderqueer individual"
Replacement religion alert!
@@sananton2821 yOure sO fUnnY aNd cOol I waNnA bE jUsT liKe yOu whEn i GroW uP herr derr 🤪 commenting some dumb BS
Now this one's quite interesting. I always did wonder why God couldn't just forgive Adam and Eve. Like, if you're the one who's making the rules for this whole scenario, then why would you want it to be the most arduous, painful process ever when you could have just said, "Y'all messed up, but it's aight; I got you, fam."
And another issue that I'm not sure anyone considers is that if Jesus was the end goal of the plan all along, then why not make Adam and Eve's first child be Jesus and then have Adam do an Abraham? Boom - problem solved, everyone can be saved right from the get go before everything gets out of hand and billions of people have to go to Hell because they have no knowledge of this event.
And I feel you about the perfection thing. Growing up in church it was always preached how incredible and inspiring Jesus's life was, that he lived without sin and how we should all aspire to the same. And I'm like, "Well, He had certain advantages that we can't have, so..."
I guess the point is, if I was God, I think I would have done things differently.
Just a bit perhaps. Ha! All good points. Love all your involvement here. Thank you!
I was talking to a Christian friend a long while ago, and I was like "yeah I would sacrifice myself, send me to hell for actual eternity if I knew *for sure* that all of mankind would be saved."
I think lots of people would be up for that, it's not that big of a deal. And I wouldn't even care if people believed in me or even knew my name. Who cares, I'd be burning atm, other slightly more pressing matters.
It's an underwhelming story to begin with, and Jesus being a God who cheats his way out makes it even more underwhelming.
In Judaism God does do things differently. All you have to do is repent, and God is ready and willing to forgive, and does forgive. (Ezekiel 18.21-23) No human blood sacrifice on a cruciform, Priapeian torture-stake necessary.
The problem is "backward reasoning" (or "after the fact rationalizing").
Things aren't done differently. They are exactly the way they are (or at least we perceive them that way). But - main premise of theism - God did it.
So there must be a reason, a good reason... and it must not have been "God's fault".
That's the starting point... and from that point backwards are the religious doctrines and dogmas constructed.
And this works on all levels of a religion. Like "Jesus perfection". Basic premise: Jesus was perfect. He was / is God himself. So everything Jesus did must have been perfect and sinless... and if it seems to us that this wasn't that case... our perception is wrong. Because Jesus was perfect, and we mustn't contradict the basic premise. Backward reasoning.
I have never taken the story of Adam and Eve very seriously. I just considered it as being no more than Greek mythology. I see it as being interesting to know and perhaps have casual conversations about but that's about it. It is much like the story of "Pandora's box" where the only thing left in the box was "hope". Both are interesting for occasional discussion such as Pandora's box was in college Greek mythology classes.
I do remember being in a Southern Baptist Church as a child and all the folks that believed the story was an actual event. Brainwashing at its finest and most of it done willingly and with self help. I consider it a form of child abuse to teach that stuff to kids. I was also a victim.
I also see the story as a threat to Jews and Christians for not having impossible blind faith. Who would not of payed attention to the snake? The Snake made sense. Yeah, I know the bible does not say "snake".
I always figured that if the story was true then god got an orgasm out of his plan succeeding and being able to condemn mankind. Why didn't god just save time and condemn man without all the Garden of Eden crap? It would of saved time and got the result he knew would happen if he is all knowing. See, that is they kind of conversation for which I was referring earlier.
I am a very simple guy and all I require is simple proof the supernatural events happened then I'd be all in. But without it I am stuck with common sense and logic to fall back on instead of fables and mythology. Simple and direct. Would not simple and direct be the path of a real god being he made human and knows his nature.
Please keep them coming, MythVision needs to feature you. Your content is freaking awesome!!
Id kill to go on MythVision. Ha, make it happen!
Ha! Thanks you!!
I use videos like this in the same light as Christians going to Church, TO reinforce my understanding. It is sometimes good to get another viewpoint.
I am 74 years old. I started questioning the faith when I was in High School. I was raised in a Southern Baptist home so the b/s was pilled on deep and high. But the supernatural and lack of science always weighted heavy on me.
I always had problems with the Supernatural events of the bible. I also read the "Age of Reason" by Thomas Paine when I was young. That was an eye opener for me. But it was just a first step in my change. I don't get deep into disproving the bible stories because most of the bible is based on supernatural events. If they are not true then the whole thing falls. SO my position is that the supernatural events must first be proven true. Examples being the virgin birth, jumping out of the grave after 3 or 4 days, taking a Uber ride in a whale, walking on water, Samson's magic hair and so on.
If you were born into the Church then it takes a strong foundation and will to overcome the propaganda driven in your brain by Christians. The whole system is fine tuned over the years to deny reality.
Glad to be of use here. Thank you for sharing. Also I’m stealing an uber ride in a whale.
@@MindShift-Brandon "I'm stealing an uber ride in a whale"
Don't worry I will stealing thoughts from you as well.
Also the "Uber ride" works well for Elijah's ride to heaven.
@@Cuffsmaster You have a way with words. Glad you got out of the pit of BS.
@@mattmorehouse9685 Thank you.
"The whole system is fine-tuned over the years to deny reality." Exactly. Evolution - as applied to survival of religions, dictates each must acquire sufficient traits to be among the ones who survive. Those religions who had not acquired sufficient survival traits face decline or do not survive, then join the many extinct ones.
It's not hateful, nor anti Christian to point out these logical conflicts, and contradictions. This vid explains why I'm no longer religious
Incredible!
I’ve had thoughts like this forever about Christianity, and I’ve never seen a TH-cam counterapologist stress this particular aspect of the narrative failure of the Christ myth.
That Jesus paid for our sins, but paid an infinitely smaller price than what is demanded as payment from humans.
It’s all so completely absurd.
Absurd is right. Thank you!
I'm so happy to see more and more from the other side waking up to the "actual" truth.
Questioning religion is always smart; but, questioning The Truth should be aproached scientifically, like a math equation. The guy in this video just questioned how a tree produces fruit - when instead he should be questioning how does the tree exist? There are questions that 'appear' intelligent to the untrained because the cut-off branch is still green, but after awhile people will see it's actually dead and fruitless.
@@auh2o148 The Truth™️ needs to be approached like a math Equation?
“How we exist” will never be demonstrated through mere a priori arm chair logic.
Begone, knave, your Aristotelian physics have no power here.
Even more absurd: Jesus paid for our sins, but the overwhelming majority of us are going to hell anyway. As Brandon pointed out, we inherit "original sin" without doing anything, but for some reason we have to do all kinds of rituals and claims and statements etc (at the minimum) to inherit the debt payment.
Welcome all! This deconstruction of the main point of christianity is one of my favorite things to think on. Lots jammed in to this video. Probably should have been a 10 episode series ha! Enjoy.
You did a remarkable job with this. I was tempted to send it to my stepdad, but I'm a bit hesitant to disrupt my parents' faith. I mean, I doubt this would shake him much, but these are very reasonable questions. Why would a loving father complicate forgiveness like this? It shouldn't be THIS difficult for a child to earn their father's love.
I hear ya. Its just so hard for someone still in the faith to even hear, like really here. I mean i cant get it through to my loved ones in real life.
@@MindShift-Brandon My husband was more of an atheist before me. I was firmly agnostic, I wanted to believe, just like you said in a previous video. That's very relatable. For a few years I thought my husband was a cynic, not just a skeptic. But I've come to really love and appreciate his no-BS approach to life. He's practical, levelheaded, and not at all as pessimistic as I once thought. It took time and personal growth for me to truly appreciate critical thinking.
@@MindShift-Brandon hey man I'm a true believer and I'm intrigued by your reasoning on not being in Christ will love to have a conversation on it.
Hey Eric. I am always open to a conversation. My email is in my about section on the home page.
*This* is the biggest issue I have with Christianity in particular. I could rationalize a lot, I could force myself to deny scientific evidence, and I could put the general problem of why bad things ever happen on the back burner. But the fact that the salvation doctrine doesn't make any sense even on its own terms -- this does it for me. And that the consequences of eternal hell are so infinitely out of proportion -- that's infinitely worse than even the regular problem of evil, especially in light of such a nonsensical salvation doctrine.
Even if I wanted to become a Christian, I would not know exactly whether I had done whatever it that involves being saved -- and I've never heard an explanation that makes sense.
It wasnt the biggest for me at first, but like you said, it would be the biggest blocker of ever being able to go back…other than maybe the clarity of just how false and inaccurate the bible is.
"salvation doctrine doesn't make any sense" ---
So you look for answers from atheists and fundamentalist heretics?
The b-i-b-l-e never said for people to pick a religion; in fact, J-e-s-u-s Himself condemned religious people. Religion promotes stupidity. The Truth is what you need, and that is what the b-i-b-l-e provides: the truth about how we got here, why we were made, how things work, and Who and what The Truth is.
You are a refreshing addition to the very complicated issue of religion and debunking the fairytale.
Thanks so much, Greg!
I always thought Roman crucifixion was so convenient to the story. What if it was another form of display like a head on a pike? Would there be church prayer under a head on a pike? What of the resurrection? Wouldn't the head have disappeared? Would prayer be under a pointy stick? And, what of the disciples? Would they have been visited by a floating head, a headless body or some grotesque fusion?
It just occurred to me, with all those pointy sticks, wouldn't that make a Christian cemetery a dangerous place to be?
The whole story really does start to fall apart under any real scrutiny. It's no wonder they scream "heresy!" every time someone takes a critical look at it.
It’s why they tried so hard to suppress reading and printing the Bible in the first place. They argued, and rightly so, that if the masses were able to read it and other ideas for themselves they would abandon the church. And they did. But not because knowledge is inherently wrong or that being able to reason comes from satan or whatever. No, it’s because people don’t believe in conspiracy theories when they actively know how things work. Lightning can seem like something send from a god but when you know the mechanics of what’s actually happening you don’t really be needing god anymore.
@@SkywalkerSamadhi You don't know what you're talking about.
@@Lerian_V probably not
@@SkywalkerSamadhi They didn't try very hard to suppress reading and printing. There are a number of partial Old English Bible translations (from the Latin) surviving, including the Old English Hexateuch, Wessex Gospels and the Book of Psalms, partly in prose and partly in a different verse version. Others, now missing, are referred to in other texts, notably a lost translation of the Gospel of John into Old English by the Venerable Bede, which he is said to have completed shortly before his death around the year 735. Alfred the Great had a number of passages of the Bible circulated in the vernacular about 900, and in about 970 an inter-linear translation was added in red to the Lindisfarne Gospels.[20] These included passages from the Ten Commandments and the Pentateuch, which he prefixed to a code of laws he promulgated around this time. In approximately 990, a full and freestanding version of the four Gospels in idiomatic Old English appeared, in the West Saxon dialect; these are called the Wessex Gospels. According to the historian Victoria Thompson, "although the Church reserved Latin for the most sacred liturgical moments almost every other religious text was available in English by the eleventh century".[21]
After the Norman Conquest, the Ormulum, produced by the Augustinian friar Orm of Lincolnshire around 1150, includes partial translations of the Gospels and Acts of the Apostles from Latin into the dialect of East Midland. The manuscript is written in the poetic meter iambic septenarius.
Richard Rolle of Hampole (or de Hampole) was an Oxford-educated hermit and writer of religious texts. In the early 14th century, he produced English glosses of Latin Bible text, including the Psalms. Rolle translated the Psalms into a Northern English dialect, but later copies were written in Southern English dialects. Around the same time, an anonymous author in the West Midlands region produced another gloss of the Psalms - the West Midland Psalms.
In the early years of the 14th century, a French copy of the Book of Revelation was anonymously translated into English, and there were English versions of various French paraphrases and moralized versions.
In the late 14th century, John Wycliffe and perhaps Nicholas Hereford produced the first complete English language Bible. Wycliffe's Bible was revised in the last years of the 14th century, resulting in two major editions, the second more numerous than the first, both circulating widely despite their official prohibition at the Oxford Synod.
@@Lerian_VYeah, well I do, and yes. It’s easily proven nonsense. Starting right off with the first book. So many inaccuracies, contradictions, and out right moral BS. One of the first stories is a flood that never happened, and couldn’t of physically happened, even if we entertained the idea that an all powerful and loving god would turn 99% of all life on earth to a hashtag, with overwhelming collateral damage, that would probably make even Hitler whence. The religion debunks itself, the moment you start questioning it. It’s hard to believe I was a true believer for so many years.
This is exactly what ive been saying to my siblings. His ressurection makes the sacrifice pointless.
The most significant event in history and you dismiss it as pointless
Mankind rejected god and in his love he has given an opportunity for reconciliation for those who would like it The only person in history without sin dies for everyone else and ( briefly ) is resurrected in physical form for our Justification before assessing to heaven and allowing the holy spirit to take over to be in various places simultaneously .why is it not pointless.Because salvation is a free gift to those who are humble enough to receive it by the grace of what Jesus did
@davidmccarroll8274 he gave it but he took it back. Then there was no sacrifice.
@@davidhanson888 The point was that prior to that the Jews where giving sacrifice after sacrifice because there was no perfect lamb .If Jesus was anyone else your comment would be right.But the one and only perfect person ( god ) came down and was sacriced in human form but raised for our Justification because of his perfection .After a short visit he ascended to heaven.WHY because salvation is a free from god to those who believe
@davidmccarroll8274 yes. I know. I've been there done that. I've prayed that prayer of salvation. I know the essence of it. Been a chirstian for 40 years.
This is all for show. Death and resurrection is pointless because he is god. He can die and live 10,000 times for all he wants. It doesn't matter. If maybe Jesus didn't resurrect then it would have had more substance.
I believe you have strong faith. I'm happy for you. If the concept of salvation is where you find solace, then good for you. There's nothing wrong in believing in it if you feel like it.
I believed in it before until I woke up realizing that's it is a hoax in my perspective. That's why I left the faith.
@@davidhanson888 If Jesus had not resurrected then you would never of heard of him Christianity would not of spread around the world.When Christ died the deciples were afraid and hiding and lost confidence The resurrection proved to them that his claims were genuine and gave them the faith to spread the gospel and when neccessary die for their faith .All the best god bless !!!
I recently became a deist, and someone from one my Facebook groups recommended one of your videos. After looking at that, I’ve looked at more of your videos.. I’m glad I did! Makes so much sense! I was raised Catholic, went to traditional Christian churches, etc. I’ve finally came to the realization that I was only believing what I was raised to believe! Then, I started thinking for myself, I’ve never felt more at peace..
Just started watching this and your opening line was brilliant. It boggles my mind that so many people (Christians) still just see it as, "He sacrificed his life for all of us!" without really taking that concept apart.
Hey thanks! Welcome to the family
And how can you sacrifice for all of humanity unless your in space and you died saving the actual earth 🌍
It never made sense to me, raised Presbyterian, until I started reading about pagan dying vegetation gods. Then it made sense: dying vegetation creates the compost that is fertile earth. But the whole thing about the sin wipe-out just seemed-- weird.
I'm very glad more people are discussing the incoherence of the atonement. For some reason I didn't think about it for years, but when you try to justify it, no one theory works. This is why William Lane Craig tries to stitch together bits and pieces of all the different atonement theories, and he just ends up with a jumbled mess.
Exactly! Just a mess
Nothing about the story would make any sense if J-e-s-u-s wasn't who He said He was. He had to be human in order to die; He had to be G-o-d in order to be perfect. These two things together are what make Him the perfect sacrifice. The b-i-b-l-e is full of prerequisites you have to understand in order to understand deeper things. People of course, skip these steps, then wonder why they're confused. They try to do algebra before doing 2+2=4, and get angry at why they can't figure out what "x" is. You problem is that you're confused about the Atonement because you're confused about Who and what G-o-d is or why He even made us.
@@auh2o148 Why are you afraid to write Jesus, Bible, or God here? Is there something about putting these specific words into electronic text on a website on the internet that is verboten? Also Jesus didn't "die" in the way humans do, so you're wrong there, he didn't "die" for our sins, he was temporarily made unliving and then returned to living 3 days later according to your "b-i-b-l-e"
@@auh2o148are you learning how to spell?
@blw4089 just letting fools like you know who I'm referring to by using the only spelling you'refamiliar with, while at the same time not giving credence to that false name. Is that easy enough for you to understand?
I watch a lot of people with similar content to yours and I think that you are definitely going to take off as much as an atheist channel can in a Christian world lmao I appreciate your hard work and dedication in making this and the many other videos you have! I wish you and the community all the best!
This is not a Christian world. This fellow is very ignorant of Christian faith, and how we actually have our scripture, and many other things. Which is not surprising. Furthermore, utilizing a Catholic to explain Christian beliefs is not accurate either, since we do not consider them to be for a very large number of reasons.
Thank you for your very kind and encouraging words. Glad to have you here and part of this!
I think what they mean is this country or the west. In that regard, it very much is. You cannot even cone close to winning an election if you dont profess faith in the abrahamic god because of how much of the population also believes. Theres so many examples to show that christians are not the suppressed class they claim at this point. Also using a catholic should be a non issue for this. Almost all sects of christianity believe in the literal death and resurrection of jesus as a payment for sins. I was clear to clarify this in the video.
i agree, shroom.... he gets straight to the point and is well spoken. lots of the channels have five minutes of intro/cartoons/ drama music etc.. and although there's nothing wrong with it i'm more of a just the facts ma'am, when it comes to this topic
@@zap0918 ignorant of Christian faith? 🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣 Dude, he knows it perfectly well. So do I. And if you think that Catholic priest was saying anything different than an Evangelical pastor, then you’re blinded by your anti-Catholicism.
Years ago I had some time while recovering from a broken heel bone and decided to research what it was about blood that was so significant in the bible and came away grossed out and left empty handed. There is no good reason for blood sacrifices or someone dying for all. It’s a really bad concept. I was already sour on the trinity thing so it wasn’t too much longer I got the will to break away and am very glad I did. Things look different from this side!
So this comment isn't about the contents of the video. I just want to point out that, 1) you are a content monster and, 2) the fact that you take the time to put in subtitles is amazing. Thank you.
Ha! Love that. Thanks for the encouragement!
The Christian salvation narrative is a big nonsensical mess. It comes across as a product of too many writers with different ideas resulting in a self contradicting and confusing conclusion.
Yes. Looks so darn manmade by the end of it for anyone willing to really look. Thanks, Lars!
@@MindShift-Brandon if you believe in Jesus or not one day you will have to stand before him.
@@fionasmith6868 Thanks for bringing up another weird aspect of Christian salvation - It's not enough that Jesus died for our sins, no you have to BELIEVE that he died for our sins in order to be saved. I think I know those sort of miracles that require belief in order to have an effect. We usually refer to them as superstition.
@@LarsPallesen it's being born again .
Fiona Smith Despite all the contradictions, inconsistencies and absurdities, you STILL believe this rubbish???
My new favorite Atheist podcaster!!Love your channel, brother. 40 years I was a devout Catholic. I deconverted about 7 years ago. Thank you for giving us all a voice! You give me solace.
Oh thats so encouraging to hear. Thanks for being here!
I left that place in 2020 and I felt chains lifted off my wrists and ankles. It has been hard cause my spouse is still Catholic but I will never go back to that shit show
@@TheSuperTeacherStudent what keeps you married to her ? you should be looking for more sexual partners. life is very short. now that the "chains lifted of your wrists and ankles" make the most of it.
Fellow deconverted Catholic - was even a seminarian at one point. All the best to you!
@@SeekingVirtueA how did you overcome the fear of judgement ? I am unable to get over it
One of the best deconstructions available. Thank you for gathering this and curating the wisdom that sets us free.
Thank you for that!
I usually hold the position that since Genesis demonstrably didn't happen, then there was no fall from grace, then there was no original sin, then there was no flood, then there was no sacrifice on the cross, then there was no salvation.
Yes. If the first few words are already wrong, why read use the rest! Great point .
My biggest problem, about having the sacrifice to prove love. Is that it is not actual love, when it was made conditionally. The only way to receive said love, and the benefit of the sacrifice is to give your life to Christ. If even those that reject God, were saved thanks to the sacrifice then it is love. But as it is, it is both abusive and not love AT ALL.
Imagine someone puts their life in danger to save their son, that does show love. But then, this person goes, I made the greatest sacrifice to prove my love to you, and from now on you have to live for me. Your whole life has to be dedicated in worshipping me, you have to follow my every command. Because I made this sacrifice, therefore you owe me for life. Otherwise, I will torture for eternity.
So well put. Its gross and abusive to the highest degree.
You have the free will to choose.gid loves people and wants them for companionship .Most people reject it and god will not force people into his presence in heaven against their will
What you described is an abusive relationship with a malignant narcissist/sadistic psychopath.
@@annemurphy8074 If this is a description of god it is warped!!!.God loves people.The problem is he is perfect and we are sinners.He loves us but that does not mean he is a god of justice also .If he did not love us he would not have sent Jesus .He came down to face the punishment on the cross for our sins.Imaginw being in court and a Judge fines you One million pounds Stirling .Then a stranger walks in and pays your fine for you .People have the choice to accept the gift be free of the Judgement and be god's friend .If you choose to reject that then you are left facing the penalty .Your Choice. God bless
You say that if Jesus sacrifice saved those who reject god as well then that would be love .I disagree .( analogy ) If a man loves a women and she says no thankyou I just want us to be friends it would not be love for him to continually chase her .Although he is hurting the loving thing for him to do is to accept and respect her wishes .In the same way god is not going to force you into his presence against your will .At the same time if you change your mind and want to have god in your life he will accept you with open arms.
Incredible! You have just explained what I have always doubted about the Christian faith. Thank you for helping us realize we aren't crazy and religion is just fiction and has always been. Loving your channel and insights. Keep up the great work!
So glad to help normalize! Appreciate the kind words and you being part of this!
@@MindShift-Brandon Do you actually read the comments and see what horrible epithets and accusations are being hurdled against Goodness Incarnate? Do you see the crowd you have gathered screaming "crucify Him!"?
Shame on you. Again and again, shame on you.
@@andrewferg8737Holy persecution complex Batman!
@@jackhiggins3936 "complex" ---
Are you suggesting the death of Christ and those of the martyrs is a psychological aberration?
@@jackhiggins3936 "persecution complex"--
see also:
Treece, Patricia "A Man for Others: Maximilian Kolbe the Saint of Auschwitz" HarperCollins, 1982
Bernard, Jean "Priestblock 25487: a Memoir of Dachau" A. Pustet, 1962
Holy cow the bars you just spit in the first 40 seconds sums up exactly why I started doubting and am leaving the faith.
Straight fire 🔥 you don't see that amount of clear and concise diction often!
Hey thank you! So kind of you
You are amazing ❤ thank you for putting everything I’ve ever wondered and questioned into words and made soo much sense of it all! No one in my life has ever acknowledged the points I make bc they are scared to face the truth. I’m so glad I found you!❤
That is exceptionally kind. Thanks so much! I am very glad to help normalize this insanity for/with you
Assuming he actually died and all that... where did Jesus' body go? The spirit goes to heaven not the body, but his body was missing? Also, it clearly states Mary and the women never told anyone the body was missing (literally how the story ends), so how do we know it was ever missing? Additionally, it states that other believers rose from the dead and presented to the people in town, so zombie apocalypse? What happened to them after they came back to life? Another question - I dont know the exact books/chapters - but in one it says they ate passover before he died, but later it says it was after he died... So which is it and was there cannibalism involved? Is that why Communion is the "body and blood of jesus christ"? And further more, why would god WANT this? (You touched on this). Why did he choose human sacrifice? You've addressed all my my other thoughts on this topic beautifully.
Right! So many many issues.
Absolutely Brilliant!! From the time that I was 9 this whole Original Sin concept has seemed absurd. And the fact that you nailed it, and included the absurdity of Jesus being God made this the best 23 minutes I have ever spent on the internet.
man, this comment made my day! thanks so much for the kind feedback here!
I watched again just now. What a revelation!!@@MindShift-Brandon
Amen. Jesus denied being God!!
There is a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof is destruction.
Franciswalsh8416 🤡What the Trinity ant true???
Your opening line captures the absurdity of the basis for Christianity so succinctly. Well done.
I started drifting away from church and religion in my 20's and for a long time considered religion to be somewhat benign and fine for those who I had left behind. I have come to realize that religion does a great amount of harm and I support anyone who like you seek to expose what nonsense it really is.
When I really started reading the Bible it became clear that this whole book was written by men. Only men could make-up so many stories with so many nonsensical plots. It’s a book of fiction with a smattering of true locations.
Yes sir! Well said.
Hey man I said thanks before, but I wanted to say thanks again. I was raised fundamentalist, and I'm so so grateful that you are able to eloquently put this all into words. Means a lot. Keep. It. Up.
Appreciate that big time. Its a unique place we came from and so hard to shake. Glad these videos are resonating and appreciate you taking the time to say hey and thanks.
You need to learn the fundamentals of The Truth.
@@MindShift-Brandon Even if you don't come from a fundamentalist church, this deep programming is hard to shake -- it's also in disguise in our schools, businesses, professions, laws, and social customs.
Absolutely, PERFECT!!! I like to point out that Jesus told the man on the cross, "Today you will be with me in Paradise." Which means he really had a bad morning and 1/2 the afternoon, then, Paradise. Tough sacrifice and as you point out, completely unfair if it even was a sacrifice. Elsewhere in the Bible, god forgives people with no sacrifice. He just does it! As you well said, because it is written by men making up a story, it's full of nonsense. They were good at trying to make something that would sound impressive and important but it is full of holes, as you eloquently point out. I too couldn't see it, until one day that I could. If fell apart like a house of cards after that. My lifetime of indoctrination came to halt and left me sad for a long time. You are doing great work. Keep it up!
Thank you so much!
Thank you for pointing that out, you are entirely correct! The God of the Bible is unaware of his own blindness and ignorance.
Thanks for the subtitles. It helps a lot for those like me that are from other countries.
You brought up so many excellent points, including a few I'd never thought about. When I was a kid I could never understand where Christ "sacrificed" . . . if he was God on earth, then he could withstand anything. If not, he wasn't all powerful. And further, he knew the end game, so a lousy weekend would have been easy-peasy for him. No one was ever able to show me where he suffered let alone how his suffering was the most suffering ever. But I thought that so many adults all got this, and some of them were very intelligent people, so I assumed one day it would make sense to me. I've been around a lot of ministers and missionaries in my life and gone to an array of churches, and every single Christian has failed to explain this. Because it just doesn't make sense.
Just doesn’t make sense is right. From like 30 different angles. Its just ridiculous. Thanks for watching!
My thought is even if it was a major sacrifice, is it that impressive to sacrifice 1 life for the lives of millions? I would sacrifice myself to save millions of people. Maybe I'm too altruistic idk.
There's so much here, I'm going to have to watch it several times and take notes. Thank you.
So welcome. Thanks for watching!
This is the 4th video I’ve watched from you and I can truly say that you’re one of the few creators who can circle in on the heart of each topic you discuss. Every video puts into words what I can’t sometimes. You’re on your way man! Keep up the good work
So very kind, thank you!
That may be the best 42 seconds of intro to any video EVER on the TH-cams!
What a mouthful! I'll need to study it so I can recite it myself. The whole argument distilled. Great job!
Ha! Thats wonderful. Thanks so much
Great video. One thing thing that always bothered me is the double standard. God tells us to just forgive those who sin against us. no revenge, no punishment, no justice, no blood sacrifice required. Yet HE requires complete vengeance, pouring our His wrath to the dregs on an innocent substitute. WTH? How is that fair or just or merciful or gracious? But if we challenge God's supposed goodness in any way, we are scolded "Who are you to talk back to God?" well, I'm me and I demand an answer. Crickets.
Thank you! And yes it simple does not make sense
Yes, thank you for pointing out that double standard, you are perfectly correct. God commands us to forgive all others and to do so with no action taken by us against those others; Jawheh, on the other hand, is chompin' at the bit and drooling out of the corner of his mouth to finish the transaction with his hot wrath and vengeance poured out. This God of the Bible is a blind psychopath, he ought to take a look at himself in the mirror sometime.
Thank you for being a voice for traumatized inner child to be happy about ❤️🤘
My pleasure!
If he died for our sins, why are we still all sinners at birth?
THAT is a good question!
Thank you for clearly showing what always lay in the back of my mind as a former church pastor of 26 years. I woke up in a classic mid-life crisis of belief and the catalyst for was the fact that Jesus gave up his weekend for our sins and that isn't a sacrifice supposed to stay dead. What kind of sacrifice is that? It wasn't. From there I was to be free and your putting this all together for me is simply done amazingly well. Thank you.....While it is easy to think that I wasted my youth in Christian fairytales, I could not be here if I had not been there.
I'm so sorry that you wasted 26 years of your life being a church pastor. Just goes to show how powerful the indoctrination is that comes with Christianity.
The glaring issue with the personal relationship claim is that not every human being is privy to these anecdotal experiences. If this god wanted to interact with us, and it is imperative that we spend quality time with it, then it would offer us incontestable clarity of its existence and desire for communication/relation; an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, all-benevolent god is more than capable.
If Jesus died for our Sins, why are we born in Sin and Must Repent?? I Smell Bullshit.
Ha. Nailed it. No pun intended
Jesus's "sacrifice" (as they call it) wasn't impressive.
He apparently knew he would rise 3 days later.
We know of men that left their families to fight in war, not knowing they would return. Many didn't.
That my friends, is sacrifice!
I had all these questions when I was 8, but it took me decades to cleanse myself completely of indoctrination. It makes you worry about other forms of indoctrination, such as political...
And a lot of political indoctrination rests on a foundation of religious indoctrination. I mean, our Western European education was born in and formed by the church. It has many of the same "fall in line and obey or be punished" structures of Abrahamic religion, certainly of Christianity.
As a child in Catholic school, we were made to close our eyes and imagine Jesus’ pain at the cross (also, burning in hell: imagine the flames consuming your feet then climbing over your body) and it often ended with “and the one driving the nails through his hands WAS YOU!”
This started at age 6. It was extremely traumatizing.
As for Jesus never having endured several kinds of suffering: painful periods. Something close to half of the human population will experience routinely.
Inheriting forgiveness would even clinch the Christian message of Jesus as “the second Adam”.
That is disgusting. The child indoctrination is what is most offensive to me of this whole damn religion.
@@MindShift-Brandon Agreed. In my case, it made me associate religion with childhood fears so that as soon as I hit 11, I could no longer at all believe. The fear of hell is right there with being afraid of the monster under the bed, it does not bother me.
But I spent many sleepless nights as a child over this, had nightmares, developed terrible anxiety, night terrors galore...and all that did leave its toll, a toll that will last me the rest of my life. And that's the one life I do have, too.
Holy shit -- literally. That is a terrible form of child abuse. And I agree with your other points, well said.
@@sundayoliver3147 Yes. It is.
The good thing is, it made me equate hell with childhood fears, like monsters under the bed. Very soon after I hit the double digits, there was no way I could even make myself believe in hell. But I can remember the fear and the almost nightly nightmares
Oh my God! you have made so many good points here that I might cry. I feel so stupid that I used to believe this just a few years ago.
Man, i get that! Its crazy what religion can do. Glad you made it out!
Well thank you! This is really what I was thinking/feeling and putting away as “doubt”, questioning and looking for answers to questions my mind could not solve and religious leaders could not explain. Why they couldn’t do that? Because it just doesn’t add up! So thank you! Will definitely listen to more of your videos! They clear the fuzz!
So glad to help!
You are so articulate, eloquent and concise. Thank you. Keep these videos coming.
Thats very kind. Thank you. Will do!
My children never had to do anything to earn my love. Their mere existence was/is enough. If God is our father why wouldn’t he be the same as most earthly parents, like me? Never made sense to me. The other nonsensical thing to me was the sacrifice, even though it was a temporary one. So, God could speak a universe into existence but he couldn’t speak forgiveness into existence? Say what?? I’m with you on every point, Brandon! I really like forgiveness being inherited just like original sin - makes total sense.
Yes, thank you! But when we say this we are told by christians that we are foolish and proud to try and understand god. Enough!
God's forgiveness is available for you to accept or reject.
@@ChrisSmith-xh9wbcool I accept that forgiveness! Thanks God! So I’m good now right?
Wait what’s that? I’m not good yet? I forgot I have to now change my entire life to worship this god and follow all his rules and commandments and make everything about him for all of time.
Thanks for that “free” gift of forgiveness God.
Yes a god who tells us we are wicked, and unworthy. Also a god who commands us to constantly praise and worship him. This narrative is all about fear and control, and nothing to do with love.
Brother you nailed it. I came to the same conclusion by myself a year or so ago. Then you articulated it perfectly. Thanks 👍🏻
Thanks so much!
You are empowering me every time I listen. Thank you
very glad to help!
I AM angry at the churches etc. I,too, get very passionate about this subject. And everything you've said in this video makes LOGICAL SENSE. And even if you had NOT presented it with much emotion and passion, the contents of this video are cold hard FACTS!
Thank you for that!
Talking about Jesus living a perfect life reminds me of when I was a kid and would play Monopoly against myself and I would make up special rules so I could win by astronomical amounts 🤣
lol, this is a great comparison. At least someone won and was real in your version.
Playing with yourself is a fruitless venture.
Just discovered your channel and am very impressed by the honesty and insight of this video. I was a fundamentalist evangelical for over 20 years and can SO relate to your discovery of how ridiculous it all is, how when you look at the development of salvation ideas it is SO obviously man-made. The very fact that there are SO many theories of the atonement, and no agreement about something so central after almost 2k years (!), is virtual proof positive of what you're claiming here. Well-done, and keep up the great work.
Hey, Tom, thank you much for these kind words and this encouragement. I am glad this resonated with you and that we have both come to see the truth. Appreciate you being here.
If you search hard enough, eventually you'll someone or something to agree with whatever your thought process is. What you should be searching for is the thought process behind how and why you're here.
Please never stop with these videos, you've been a blessing (pun intended) in my deconversion!
I really appreciate the time and effort you have put into this. Your arguments are strong, your communication clear, and you have made tangible many of the weird thoughts and doubts and concerns I have had in recent years about the crucifixion.
Thats very kind. Thank you for this thoughtful comment!
Pleasure@@MindShift-Brandon . So many interesting and valuable videos for me to view on your channel.
I,too, love Belgium!
The term 'Blood Magic' diminishes what the christian god wanted. It was 'Human Sacrifice'. Much like using The term 'sexual assult' to describe 'rape'.
Thats a great point! But also just wanted to point out how it was just another common blood magic cult of the time.
If Christians truly believe in the power of Jesus’ blood sacrifice, then they should believe that there is still power in either animal sacrifice or even human sacrifice today. And if sacrificing a “blameless” human is even more powerful, then it makes sense that there is still immense power in sacrificing a virgin or a baby. It’s sick to think about, but this is the depravity of the Christian message.
@@Viekoda If Christians really walked their talk, abortion would be okay. These babies aren't BORN yet, so NOT born of original sin! These souls automatically go straight to heaven!
wow! I had begun seeing by the Old Testament that the N.T. was thoroughly contrived. This video gives me a LOAD more justification and is so easy to follow. It's like people have been blind to what's right in front of their eyes all along, in plain sight. I have to share this!
Thanks for the kind comment!
It's hard to believe as I scroll through the comments that there are no Christians trying to debunk some of these points. Maybe there aren't many watching or they are afraid of making a weak argument. Where's the fight, people? Just because someone can point out inconsistencies and impossibilities in a text cobbled together over centuries by different people with different agendas does not mean that you throw away the concept of religion with all of the psychological benefits it brings. It is obvious that there is a Creator and we all know it either through instinct, logic, or emperical science (which is what brought me around). We need to be thinking about our relationship with that Creator and each other and not behaving as the rest of the animals in the world, because unlike them we have a half spirit component. We cannot do as we please on this earth without consequence, because after this life is over we will be shown how our actions affected others, intended and unintended. This instant replay concept has been testified to in accounts of those who have been temporarily on the other side of life and have come back - and I point to science again to show that the sheer mass of data that has been collected from all over the world by people that do not know each other suggests a high probability of truth in these accounts. So I implore everybody to please not watch videos like this and live as if a) there is no God and b) you can walk around with a snarky, arrogant disregard of Him and His followers. I do not see that working out well for you if you do.
So I do not have to believe that Noah's ark could hold pairs of every animal on the planet, including dinosaurs, to be a theist. And I will acknowledge that Jesus made some very confusing statements, especially when he referred to himself as God, that divide people to this day. You know, his disciples could have left the part out of the story where Jesus made his despairing cry from the cross, asking why God had forsaken him. If they were making up the story they surely would have. But I am glad they did not - it makes him human like the rest of us, but obviously something much more. I mean, if I was walking around the streets and I told people to quit their jobs, drop their tools, and follow me across the countryside, they would not do it! Everyone should listen to what he had to say - so many of his concepts have helped civilization. He ended plural marriage, ended ritual sacrifice, was probably the first women's rights activist, denounced stonings, denounced the capitalistic greed of the Pharisees church (oh, would he hate some of these fabulously wealthy churches today, even the ones in his name), declared equality of dignity for every human regardless of wealth or poverty, contributed 43 parables with teaching more clear than anything in the Old Testament, and my personal favorite, The Golden Rule. Every religion has some version of that last one but Jesus may have been the first to articulate it.
Anyway, the defense rests but I should touch on the resurrection real quick because after all it was one of the main thrusts of the video. The main reason that people followed Jesus was because of his miracles, which would exhaust him in his travels. I believe the resurrection was an example of saving the best for last, because he was clearly all the way dead and yet he came back for 40 more days and appeared to hundreds of people, enough to ensure they would talk about it forever. I think it was as simple as that and not exactly a sacrifice in the way that the gentleman from St. Michaels was laying it out. In fact, his wording was very strange and not helpful. But if I start twisting off on the modern church I could be here all night.
I do appreciate how this particular atheist made an intelligent case that was not dripping with venom and hatred for all who practice religion, as some other videos do. In fact he seems to feel sorry for us and our inability to believe that the universe exploded into existence without any cause. And his debate points hold up very well against any biblical literalist. But if anyone is on the fence out there don't be persuaded by all of these people picking the Bible apart for being exactly literal to the point where you believe in nothing.
He came down to play in his own mess...😅 so perfect. The imagery that could be painted in a medieval style painting!!
Every Christian should just listen and reflect on at least the last 5 minutes (17:40 to the end). If they still can't see the glimmer of a problem with their belief system then logic and rational thought have truly passed them by.
Thank you for watching this and the kind comment. I just wish we could wake these people up for their own good.
Recognizing the errors of religion is one thing, but Truth from lies is another. Don't confuse the two.
15:47 Don't forget old age - if the story was true, Jesus never suffered any of the pains and sorrows of aging.
I love this entire video - the transaction Christians believe they needed and received has always baffled me.
Is it weird that I nod my head and say, “amen!” while I’m listening to you, just as I used to do when sitting in the sanctuary of church?
Ha. Old habits die hard!
Im pretty sure amen just means 'i agree' sooo
Edit: it means 'so be it' according to google but my point still stands
@@jojobizarrelivingstone594 true enough!
Thank you ever so much for making this amazing video. I agree with you completely.
Appreciate you watching!
Everything you said in this video is what I've been questioning to myself for years.. Thank you for expressing what I couldn't have been able to do.
My pleasure. Thank you!
Exactly. What an inefficient, flawed, sick plan to “save” us from a place god didn’t have to make in the first place. If god wants us to be better people why doesn’t he just make himself physically known to everyone, physically live with us like a parent and then advise, guide and direct our every act? This hide and seek, elusive, invisible being who plays favorites is useless! Then there is the entire sadistic veneration of torture and death that is just plain sick. No one worships Jeffrey Dahmer - why worship god? Two of a kind.
Also, see the increasing Christian comments as a win, my friend. What made them watch an atheist video in the first place? It means you hit a nerve. You are putting a stone in their shoe. For all you know, you could be the first domino in their deconversion process. So negative attention is still attention! Keep up the good work! Doing God's work 😉
Ha! Thats great perspective. Planting seeds as they say.
So God sacrificed God, to God, so God could circumvent a law that God wrote, allowing God to save us all from the wrath of God. It makes me wonder what God's punishment against us all have been, if God had refused to sacrifice God to God?
Right?! What a dumb, false mess
@@MindShift-Brandon Great content by the way. Keep up the good work.
Thanks!
I have wondered what was the precise time Jebus decided to become undead. If he was dead, how was it possible to will himself to live again?
Also, Christians claim that Jebus defeated death, however people are still dying to this very day. And since his stated purpose was to suffer the wages of sin (eternal death), by returning to life he effectively undid whatever was supposed to be accomplished by him dying.
His body was not charred, which should have been a consequence of being cast into The Lake Of Fire. Also, if Jebus was god incarnate, yet experienced death, who was in charge during his absence? If Jebus = God but god is eternal, then Jebus’ dying contradicts the eternality of god. So either Jebus did not experience death or god is not eternal.
Additionally, if sinners are conscious of their eternal torment then they aren’t really dead. So many illogical and patently nonsensical assertions in this religion!
Very concise, well thought out and plainly explained summary of the most ridiculous story ever made up to be taken seriously plus the mental gymnastics believers have to display to make it something good that makes sense. I really like this presentation. Subscribed
Imagine a mighty God capable of creating a Billion stars in our Galaxy alone also enjoying the smell of burnt Earth animals. It's a stretch!
Great points. I think it’s also important to recognize that many people suffered crucifixion for causes that they were willing to die for. Without the direct connection to God and the promise of exaltation.
That is an exceptional point!
Yes, but those people weren't perfect, nor did they die for a perfect cause.
@@auh2o148 Who's to judge?
@sundayoliver3147 the B-i-b-l-e says the redeemed of the earth will judge even angels; then it asks, 'How is it that you can't judge simple matters?' You're question is beyond silly - it's just plain stupid! Judges uphold a standard; a judgment is a decision. You're a judge for whatever nonsense you believe in. Furthermore, you make judgments every waking second of every day, like if you're going to continue breathing, or if you're going to get out of bed. Smh
As someone deconstructing and reworking my faith, I find your videos very helpful, as it offers a very different perspective than the Catholic one I grew up with. Thanks for your boldness and authenticity.
I think the main difference I have is that Catholic theology is very much a faith + works framework. Personally, where I think there are logical issues is that...people don't need to believe in the resurrection, understand the Trinity, or participate in the Eucharist to do good works. I mean, in my experience religion can be a tool to enforce morality, but I have met plenty of non-religious people who are moral because of logic and empathy. So if people don't believe, but overall live a life of compassion and effort toward justice, can they not be saved as well?
Perhaps the biggest difference between religious and non-religious morality is in the area of sex, but oh boy that is a can of worms that can be deconstructed for days and days and days.
Anyway, thanks for giving me much to consider.
my pleasure! thanks for the kind words and open mind!
My advice to you is to throw the religious stuff out, and just follow The Truth. No matter who you are, where you're from, or what you believe - The Truth is The Truth, and it's up to every individual to cling to it.
Jesus wasn't the first and only perfect man. Job 1.1 says: "There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.".
And look what happened to that poor guy. Jesus didn't have to suffer the loss of his wife and children and all his possessions either. Oh but God gave him a new wife, and new kids. So what? Job wanted his original wife and kids back. So sickening.
The first 60 seconds of this video said it all. Well done.
Thanks for watching!