Thank you. For your whole .380 ACP ammo quest series. You saved me personally alot of time and worry, and I'm sure you've saved others two. Now I know that .380 can actually preform well and with the right ammo, I am absolutely willing to carry a micro pocket gun in the caliber.
I was quite impressed with the performance combo of the pocket pistol and these Lehigh bullets or the Precision One XTP's. But for clarification, I think I should at least point out that while the performance is impressive for a pocket pistol, it's still just a pocket pistol, and I think everyone would be best armed by carrying the biggest, most powerful handgun they can reliably and accurately control. For some people, all they can handle (or all they're willing to carry) is a pocket pistol, and for that reason I did this testing -- to find what bullets make a pocket pistol most capable of delivering the most effective incapaciting hits it can. The pocket pistols are so incredibly easy to carry, and therefore more likely to be carried, that combining a pocket pistol with an adequate-performing bullet would make for an appealing combination. I would still always recommend a more powerful pistol whenever possible, but I'm quite impressed with just how well a pocket pistol can perform when combined with the right ammo.
Excellent tests, really the best ones on TH-cam. I hope you go on with these for many many more years. The results on the Lehigh XP are impressive, I love the idea of a "controlled penetration solid", especially in the .380 ACP, but even in the 9mm it is better than many JHPs. It is truly innovative. Just one more thing: one should not draw conclusions about the damage profile (wound cavity) from the gelatin tests. Ballistic gelatin (regardless of its collagen content) does not have any tensile strength, unlike real tissues. Though it is possible formally to define a similar parameter, it is then dependent on the velocity (is proportional to the square root of the velocity). This behaviour is very different from that of real flesh, so a bullet tears gelatin and flesh in a rather different way. I remember when the FBI evaluated ammo by filling up the gel cavity with water, and the "volume" measured this way was the performance indicator. It was one of the MOST unscientific things they have ever done. Gelatin is good for evaluating the penetration ability into soft tissue, nothing more, nothing less.
I have been following you and your quest since buying my first .380 a week ago! Thank you for doing the footwork for people like me who do not have the time to do so. I will be ordering Lehigh rounds. I hope they feed through my Taurus spectrum!
I bought this ammo for my M&P Bodyguard after watching your video. It ran the entire box with no issues. It was actually more reliable than the target ammo. Great stuff! Thanks for taking the time to compile this data. Thanks to it, I have confidence that the ammo in my gun will do it's job if it's ever called on. I had never heard of Lehigh and couldn't find it locally so your help was invaluable. Thanks!
Again, thanks for the report -- it is an unusual bullet shape and that's caused more than a few people to ask about feeding reliability, so hearing reports from real users will hopefully help people make up their minds. I was really impressed with the performance of this round, but -- as said before, if it doesn't feed, it doesn't matter. Glad to hear they're working for you! These are what I have my .380 loaded with.
ShootingTheBull410 Would you do a test of the Underwood Xtreme Penetrator rounds? They make one that is self proclaimed +P at 1200 fps and another that is 1100 fps in standard pressure using the Lehigh Defense XP bullet. Smith and Wesson customer service said +p isn't a good idea. I agree and I know you do too. What about the standard pressure? I'd love to see what some extra power does for that bullet. Thanks!
I love your videos because you take a VERY impartial approach to each caliber, and do not allow your own caliber bias to affect your testing/review of ammunition. I like watching your videos to help determine which ammunition will perform for me and my weapons.
Underwood Ammo has a new xtreme defender round for 380 in standard pressure and +p. I would love to see you run some tests on this new round. If it's anything like the 9mm tests that Mac conducted on the military arms channel you might have a new favorite carry ammo.
Excellent video. The dirty little secret about HP's, according to the FBI's "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness", is that they "expand in a human target only 60-70%of the time at best". That means as much as a 40% failure rate (probably higher if there are any barriers involved), and that applies to all the top HPs as well. What more people should know is that there's a 51 page multi-bullet/caliber analysis for law enforcement (entitled: 2016/17 JOINT AGENCY BALLISTICS TEST FOR DEFENSIVE HANDGUN AMMUNITION) that reached the following unqualified conclusion about the Underwood Xtreme Defender: (a fluted solid copper tipped round) "Overall: This was by far the most impressive round tested. After over a year of testing this round became the most requested round to test after some of the agencies reviewed draft shot data." and "The radial flutes increase tissue pressure and direct the tissue outward to increase wound diameter. ... tests confirmed that in over 100 shots the measured wound channel was not only larger than that of an FMJ but in most cases was the largest wound channel produced in that caliber compared to all other rounds to include fully functioning hollow points." and "All rounds in all calibers tested penetrated 15.2 - 20 inches with and without barriers. " and "Every single shot did roughly the same thing. There is a 0% chance of failure to function because there can be no failure to tumble or expand (because they don’t) and no chance to fragment. This was the most Reliable and Consistent round tested." It's discussed on p. 32-33. That's why I've moved all my 9mm pistols and PCC's to the Underwood XD 9mm 90 gr. +P, and my .380 ACP to the Xtreme Penetrator 90 gr. My .45 ACPs will be moved as well, as soon as I can find some Underwood XDs for them.
Great review. I have been using the Precision One based on your ammo quest. These are more expensive but seem to remove the failure doubt from the equation. I carry a Ruger LC380. It's a great gun for me, easy recoil, and now a great bullet to go with it. Keep up the good ammo reviews. We are watching and learning.
Something that ShootingTheBull didn't mention during the video is tumbling. Tumbling can be a problem with hollow points. If a JHP tumbles it may not expand properly. These Lehighs tumble? That only makes the permanent wound cavity wider. I am suddenly drawn to this ammo because of its resilience to bone. If a hollow point hits a bone it may stop, or it may cause a stress fracture. If a Lehigh hits a bone (depending on the bone) it may cause a compound fracture or shattering effect like a FMJ would. I live in a state that has very cold climates and I have always been concerned about penetrating a thick Columbia-like winter jacket. I think these Lehighs are the perfect answer to meeting penetration with devastation. Thanks, ShootingTheBull. Great scientific analysis as always.
I like your videos. Don't know if you've seen but Lehigh came out with a modified version, a lighter 65 gr bullet. It looks like they cut deeper grooves in the tip, they said it was to overcome the concern some people had about overpenetration. Oh and they've named their design now, the FTM- Fluid Transfer Monolithic bullet.
WOW WOW WOW. Thats seriously impressive. I have ruled out ever carrying a 380 gun ever due to the ammo issues you have reiterated consistently in your tests. This made me cheer "Yah Lehigh" at the end and then begin considering a Walther PPK.
Awesome that these cycled through the tcp738. I'm getting one just for this reason. I was looking for a pocket pistol/ankle back up for my 24/7 pro g2c 45 or when I can't conceal it. Great reviews! Keep up the good work!
Recently Lehigh Defense has come out with a 65 grain 380 "xtreme defender". They claim 18" penetration and better terminal ballistics than the 380 xp. Wanna try them out for us?? :-)
I guess I am too much an old timer to want a bullet that light in my defense gun. Don't care how fast it goes. Seems to be there is the perfect sectional density for each caliber. And 65 is not it for 9 mm. Too short and squat a projectile. But a test would be interesting. Better if bones and skin and jackets were in front of the gelatin. See what it really does at that light weight.
@@phigdon3 I do to,but I would really love to see them tested here,used his methodology .I feel.pretty confident that the bigger grooves probably do cut a bigger wound channel ,I just can't help but wonder if they retard the penetration too much.
I've been doing some research ok Lehigh defense ammo, and they are a game changer for me. they have the best ammo money can buy, and I've now made up my mind that I can add a 9-millimeter and 380 to my gun collection even for self-defense carry. thank you for the video
I think it's important to consider that from some target aspects, penetration in excess of 18" can certainly be desirable. It's also worth noting that penetrating skin is supposed to be equivalent to 3" of gel penetration.
The Swiss should definitely adopt this projectile for their .380 ACP applications. Israel, on the other hand, may prefer the XTP. It's great to see .380 ACP go up a notch in stopping power (without a compromise). Excellent innovation. Great job, Lehigh Defense. Thanks for giving the shooting public confidence in the manufacturer claims, ShootingTheBull. I credit you with saving good lives through promoting more effective defensive carry ammo.
***** I was joking. Look at the bullet shapes. Between the Lehigh Defense XP and the Winchester SilverTip I'd say ShootingTheBull410 already has laid some great groundwork for a Halloween special on self-defense ammunition options against dangerous preternatural creatures (vampires, werewolves, etc.)
Thank you for all of your effort. I have been watching your videos for some time. Up until a few months ago I carried a Glock 27, my current carry piece is a Glock 42. Your test results in the Lehigh .380 Xtreme Penetrator. This new ammo makes a .380 as effective as a more powerful caliber. I received my Xtreme Penetrator ammo yesterday. Thanks, Bruce Longenecker
Ever since my purchase of a Bersa thunder, I've been doing research on the most effective rounds for a .380. I got suckered into buying G2 RIP ammo, which I keep seeing in other videos having penetration only being up to six inches, while a .177 BB gun only has 3 inches. Now learning there is actually a FBI standard for lethal penetration, I found this most informative on which loads I should use defensively.
You think the way I do. I have always loved the idea of alternating rounds, sometimes I go with a penetrating round and a hollow point that way if everyone gets a double tap, I can feel good that they got something that will work well to stop them. I have the penetrators and the defenders too, the HP rounds are not good in the .380 because the don't have the power to work well.
Nice test not many people recognize the reliability and effectiveness of a solid copper FNFMJ with flutes to overcome the limitations of .380ACP. Underwood loads them in +P to 1200fps.
Great review and great find. I actually just ordered a couple of boxes for my Bodyguard 380. I was going to go to a bigger gun once jacket season comes but I may just stick with the 380.
Thank you very much for the information and the link to the article. Guess I have some expensive milk jug ammunition to use up. Keep up the great work guys!!
Just received my Underwood Loading of the 380 extreme penetrator 20 round box. Can not wait to try them out with 1100 fps from my S&W bodyguard 380. Looking forward to seeing the other calibers such as 9mm, 40S&W, 10mm, 45Acp and my favorite 357 sig. With underwood loadings I bet these things will be trucking!
Thanks for the video. For some time, I have been unable to find Lehigh XP Xtreme Penetrator 85 grain solid copper 380 ammo at my local dealers. On the other hand, I have been able to find Fort Scott 95 grain solid copper 380 ammo and Ruger ARX 56 grain solid copper/polymer 380 ammo at my local dealers.
Based on the results of this test, I ordered two boxes of these Xtreme Penetrator Lehigh 380's. I love my Glock 42, and for a while, I carried Precision One XTP's in it and then changed to Underwood HCFN 100gr standard pressure. But after seeing this test, I am impressed enough that I think that these 380's might just be the best round developed yet for the 380. I was already using Lehigh Max Expansion in my 9mm M&P Shield (great pistol by the way) and my Glock 19. I am sold on Lehigh. I didn't want the Max Expansion for the 380, though, because of lack of penetration. I think if my 42 cycles these well (I'm betting it will) I'm going to start carrying it again because I really do love it, and the way it shoots and fits my hand. The Shield is great too, and I can shoot them both with equal ease, so I might just alternate. Anyway, I had a long talk with Mike Cyrus at Lehigh, and I think they might have come up with the perfect 380 round. The bullet design, and dropping the FPS to in the 800's is, I think, perfect for the 380. Thanks for your work, and your vid is what tipped the scales of me buying this ammo.
I am going home to try the Underwood loads using the Extreme Penetrators into my Kahr P380 and then into a newer Kimber Micro Raptor stainless. Great video. Thanks!!!
Why did you not test the Defense round? According to Lehigh it does much more damage. Lehigh recommends it for self-defense and the Penetrator for hunting and such. Lehigh has a video comparison test on their website. Thanks again for your hard work in our behalf, Ben
Would be interested in seeing the comparison between the Lehigh Defense .380 XP vs. the Inceptor ARX .380 by polycase. Thanks for putting these videos out.
I am more impressed with LeeHi all the time. Usually "exotic ammo" is a euphemism for B.S. I have yet to see anyone test a product of theirs that doesn't basically perform as claimed. I don't know if you have the capability, but a video I would really like to see is a comparison of this to the top performing conventional HP (XTP) in gel with a rib simulant. Obviously, there is a very good chance that any defensive shot will encounter a rib. Yet very few of the tests account for the effects of striking a hard object on HP performance.
Extensive previous testing by several agencies has shown that ribs are meaningless is testing. You can easily put something as dull as a screwdriver right through a human rib by hand.
After watching this video... I got very excited thinking I could carry my bersa cc and feel good about the 380 load. I ordered two boxes of the Lehigh xp ammo and went to the range today... I was disappointed. I had ftf on every other round... I had to sling shot the slide to put into battery after the ftf and had to drop the mag on some as well. I read an earlier post that someone had no problems with their bersa. This weapon has been 100% flawless... I love it. But it looks like I'll be carrying the bersa cc with precision one rounds instead of the Lehigh XP. Still a good choice though...
Would definitely like to see some tests on the new Lehigh Xtreme Defense 65 grain! And a comparison to Underwood's load of the same bullet would be nice as well.
I have some of Underwoods recently manufactured .380acp Xtreme penetrators and they have changed slightly. The meplat on yours is sharp and squared off. The current offering from Underwood has a rounded off meplat. My only guess as to why the meplat of the projectile has been changed is for more reliable feeding. Now I wonder how significant the damage would be between the two. Thanks for all the great videos.
Love your videos!! Any chance you will do a video using the new Lehigh Xtreme Defense (not Penetrator) from both Lehigh and from Underwood??? Pretty please!!!!!
I would love to see these tested in .38 special. Preferably a 3" barrel, but I have a feeling your .38sp tests will be with a snubby. I'll take whatever I can get!
Those fractures in the gelatin are not part of the permanent cavity, but are the result of gel being stretched beyond its elastic limit. Gelatin is less elastic than most human tissues so it is not representative of wounding. It certainly does seem to indicate that a whole lot of *something* is going on here, though. Thank you for another excellent video and review.
I have to agree. after using this bullet for hunting, I've come to two conclusions: The XP bullet causes greater damage, and bleeding, than a SWC. The XP bullet does NOT cause a bigger wound channel than a hollow point. The fact remains, an expanded hollow point gives you the greatest chance of penetration through something vital. In pistols, bullets really seem to only damage what they physically touch. With that in mind, the XP bullet is an amazing hunting cartridge. They bleed faster and show a much better trail (Than a SWC).
+Jonathan Langford +The Chopping Block "They bleed faster and show a much better trail." OK... But they don't cause greater damage? Then where does the extra blood come from? You can't have it both ways. The point about relative elasticity is good - are you aware of any hard evidence/testing that can quantify this? It's a very important point you make, Chopper!
+Alan Montgomery The FBI paper "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" covers this pretty well. Dr. Fackler and Dr. Roberts also refer to this effect in their writing. Generally speaking, the projectile velocity at which the stretch cavity tends to exceed the elastic limit of tissue is approximately 2,000 fps. Of course, this isn't a hard limit and projectile shape, weight, and construction also have an effect, but it's safe to say that at 1,500 fps, the stretch cavity is unable to contribute substantively to wounding and at 2,500 fps, the stretch cavity causes significant tearing. The tearing is dramatically increased with projectile fragmentation, which is one reason that fragmenting 5.56mm ammunition is so devastating.
+Jonathan Langford I haven't done a direct comparison, but I'll bet it's safe to say the XP cuts a little better channel than a SWC. Probably less than flat point or WC bullets, though, and a lot worse than JHP. If you take a look at my 9mm Extreme Penetrator test, you can see there is more disruption in the gel from the FMJ than there is from the XP. I remain unconvinced that the XP is good for anything other than separating shooters from their money.
WoW! I'm impressed and that don't happen often. I don't have a .380 anymore, but I'd really like to see tests w/ .45Colt, .45ACP, and 9mm! Well and the .44 mag, but any 44mag pretty much demolishes what it hits. I do wish their 9mm bullet was a little heavier than 85gr though. More like 147gr but beggars can't be choosers!
Aloha. Excellent video, testing controls and analysis, as always. I don't know who my wallet hates more, Lehigh Defense for re-inventing the bullet (again) or you for showing it to me and proving the results. I bit the bullet a long time ago and have been using a box of the Lehigh Defense Maximum Expansion .380 ACP in my EDC's. Now, I guess I am going to bite the bullet again and order a box of the Lehigh Defense XP Xtreme Penetrator .380 ACP. Now if only I could get KelTec to make a double-stack version of the P3AT, much like the P11 is the double-stack version of the PF9, I would be an EDC .380 Pocket Pistol Extreme Happy Camper. To go from 6+1 standard magazine to say 9+1, and from 9+1 on the extended magazines (which give a perfect full 3-finger grip) to say 14+1.....that would be worth the slightly wider grip on the gun. Heck, lots of people find the P3AT too slim in the grip, and add sleeves to fatten them up.....why not fill that space with more bullets? Peace & Prepare Pax et Paro
Amazing a boutique type bullet that looks like it may actually work. Definitely one to consider. It will be interesting to see if it develops a street record or if someone will give it a go on some feral hogs. I need to go back through the 380 series and look at all of the rounds tested using the Hornady XTP's. To be honest I find the varying degree of performance of the XTP's amongst the ammo brands interesting. The varying degree of XTP performance is either due to developed velocity across the different loads or due to Hornady quality control from production run to production run. To me it has to be one or the other. The series really points out how little the performance differs between RN-FMJ's and FP-FMJ's. I'm old enough to remember when Hornnady introduced the FP-FMJ's and how they were felt to be so much more effective than RN-FMJ's in those pre ordinance gelatin days.
Enjoy your videos. I hope in the near future you will consider trying the Underwood ACP 65 grain Xtreme Defender in the 380 caliber. The bullet is purchased from Lehigh Defense and it's practically the same only lighter in weight with a faster round. It would make for some interesting data comparison with the Lehigh Defense 90 grain XP. So far the Lehigh Defense is my go to carry ammo but things could change depending on the results. Thanks.
By the way. The Lehigh XP shoots great in my Kahr P380. I've broken it in and all the new gun issues are gone. Best thing I did was polish the feed ramp to a higher luster. The muzzle velocity seems to be inline with the longer barrels like the Taurus has. The polygonal barrel makes up for being 1/4+" shorter.
Hi, I love your show!! Lehigh has come out with a new 380. Called Xtreme Defense. It has a different configured bullet. I would appreciate you doing a test on it. Suppose to be better than the Penetrator. Thanks
Thanks for all your effort on these videos. I've done some primitive ballistic testing using a "Fakler Box". This is basically a wooden trough that holds gallon plastic bags filled with water. Take the inches of penetration in this set up and divide by 1.8 and you get a pretty good approximation of penetration in gel. Using this set up and factor on many other types of ammo its proven to be very close to actual ballistic gel penetration tests. All of that to say this: I tested the 85 grain XP from an LCP through two layers of t-shirt material and got 46 inches of penetration which would factor out to around 25 inches in gel. I'd be curious to see if you tested some more of these XP 380s in actual gel if you might get some significant overpenetrators like this.
I'm not sure you can accurately mathematically calculate water penetration of a solid projectile (such as an FMJ, or an XP) and attribute that to an equivalent of gel penetration, can you? Water can be an excellent no-cost alternative for opening bullets up, for testing hollowpoints, and generally the ratio of somewhere between 1.6 and 2.5 can come close to predicting what gel penetration would have been. But with a non-expanding or non-opening bullet, I'm not sure the correlation would hold. Interesting question... Duncan MacPherson proposed using water to test bullets, but his method was specifically oriented towards hollowpoints, not solid projectiles. Shawn Dodson, who runs firearmstactical.com, has published an article with a method described; in Briefs #3 they mention a method using 1/2-gallon cardboard milk cartons, where you are supposed to count the # of cartons the bullet penetrates and then multiply that by 2.5. Seeing as a cardboard milk carton has about a 95mm square footprint, that would mean that a bullet that penetrates 8 milk cartons (and stops at the beginning of the 9th) would have traveled 30 inches of water. According to the FirearmsTactical article, you'd multiply the 8 cartons x 2.5 = 20 inches of (equivalent) gel penetration. So if 30 inches of water = approx. 20 inches of gel penetration, that would mean the ratio you should be using is about 1.5:1. However, according to The Box O' Truth guy, he says that Gary Roberts told him "You can also use the water testing to get a rough estimate of bullet penetration depth in soft tissue-bullets penetrate approximately 1.6 to 2 times as much in water as in soft tissue”. Perhaps the larger numbers are to account for the slight resistance factor of the milk carton's sidewalls? And then there's Charles Schwartz of Quantitative Ammunition Selection; he uses water testing in his method, and he says he's seen numbers from 1.6 to 2.5x. So what's the real number? And does any of it apply to solid projectiles? I can't say, as I haven't tested solid projectiles in water. I know that MacPherson's original recommendation for using water was as a means to get the bullet to open up, but he didn't recommend measuring the depth in water, he instead would use his mathematical formula to take into account the forces involved that water doesn't exhibit. And Schwartz does the same thing; his book doesn't talk about using the measured depth, just using water to open the bullet up and then using math to determine what the penetration would have been. Which is a long way to say -- I'm not sure water testing of solid projectiles is an appropriately correlatable method. Maybe it is, but I just don't know. As for XP's, I've shot them in bare and denim-covered gel blocks and in ClearBallistics blocks, and they've all stopped less than 20". I have had FMJ's go 25" to 27" in gel, but I haven't seen an XP go anywhere near that far. (oh, and kudos to you for using water bags, rather than plastic jugs! There are people out there using plastic jugs, and those can have a substantial detrimental effect on penetration. Fackler originally specified paper-sided milk cartons, and Schwartz recommends the thin plastic bags; neither of those will substantially affect the penetration).
Time to retest. Lehigh website states they have changed bullet weight and velocity. I would like to see that it still performs. As always, thank you for the quality vids.
Per Charles Schwartz, 2012, "Quantitative Ammunition Selection," iUniverse, Bloomington, IN, given identical bullet sectional density and velocity, the cruciform flat nose bullet will penetrate 8.3% less than a FMJ-RN bullet, but will damage 4.2% more tissue along the length of the wound channel.
Where have you been? There is new ammo out there and I haven't heard from you in a long time. You and TNOutdoors9 were the best in ammo test. Miss you guys.
Great video. ShootingTheBull410 any chance for a follow up video on LDXD or Underwood XD in .380? Very interested in seeing how they perform versus the LDXP or UnderWood XP in.380.
Interesting results; nice job. I often carry a Sig P238 that certainly falls into the subcompact category. But every once in awhile I carry my Browning 1911-380. My guess is that the longer barrel may push this Lehigh into the over penetration zone.
Do you have plans to do a test video of Lehigh ' s new extreme defender round? Supposedly, it's designed to stay under 18" while still doing the damage of extreme penetrator. I'm curious if it achieves above 12" and under 18", of course out of a micro pistol. In particular, I have a Kahr P380. Thank you though, I love your videos! Very helpful!
Just bought some of the re-designed Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator ammo from Underwood. Immediately noticed that the nose design is significantly different than the old version. The leading edge size (the "plus sign") is significantly smaller on the new design. Lehigh/Underwood say this is to allow more reliable feeding through more gun designs. But, this "tweek" to the design certainly could cause major difference in penetration depth/wound track size. There are no current reviews of this new bullet (redesigned approx 4 months ago) and since you are clearly, unquestionably the best reviewer of carry gun ammo, could I possibly convince you to try out the new Xtreme Penetrator???
Can you do a review and compare Lehigh Defense's 380 Auto 65gr Xtreme Defense Ammunition, 380 Auto 68gr Maximum Expansion Ammunition, 380 Auto 75gr Controlled Fracturing Ammunition, and the 380 Auto 90gr Xtreme Penetrator Ammunition
LD’s XP round ..... great winter weather carry round. Summer, switch to their XD round. These are great 380 rounds. Over penetration is almost never an issue for 380.
Love your videos! Like the dozens of other comments on this one in particular, will you PLEASE compare the Lehigh/Underwood Extreme Defender 380ACP to the Extreme Penetrator. The redesigned (deeper) flutes on the nose of the projectile are supposed to reduce the possibility of over penetrating while simultaneously INCREASING the temporary and permanent wound cavity. I'm begging you to compare the two.....and feel free to throw in their +P loadings (yes, I know about "no official SAAMI specs on +P 380ACP"....but they DO load and sell them as well! :)).
Hey ShootingTheBull410 you stated that the FBI's standard for handgun ammunition is between 12 and 18 inches. Can you post a link to where you found that? I was reading the "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" published by the FBI and they really downplayed over penetration.
Over penetration is bad due to shoot through liability issues. That being said, loss of "hydraulic pressure" is what stops an active perpetrator. Larger holes, larger permanent cavities, and more holes in center of mass are what count to create that effect. However the only "instant" stop is a direct hit to the brain stem/top of spinal column. A .22 lr is sufficient for that task.
Urey Patrick's "Handgun Wounding Factors & Effectiveness" is an extremely helpful document, and it does indeed downplay the fear of overpenetration risks -- meaning, people shouldn't be paralyzed about the prospect that a bullet might overpenetrate, since the hit ratio in police combat is so low (various departments have reported their shots-fired hit/miss ratio, and it usually ranges around 17% (1 hit out of six shots fired) up to the highest I've seen reported, 49%.) Meaning, as Mr. Patrick rightly points out, shots that miss the intended target completely are far more dangerous than shots that hit the target and happen to overpenetrate out the back of the target. That said, nobody wants a bullet to overpenetrate. It's still considered a bad thing, it's just not the most important factor and it's not something that should cause a person to choose shallow-penetrating ammo instead, just to avoid. The statement about an 18" maximum in that document is found on page 11, where it states that "penetration up to 18 inches is preferable." The exact language that the FBI used in their RFP for 5.56x45mm ammo is: "It is desired that projectiles penetrate between 12 - 18 inches into the ballistic gelatin and expand to maximum diameter potential, while retaining as much of the original weight as possible. Greater technical merit will be achieved by those samples demonstrating a consistent overall penetration average between 12 - 18 inches with the smallest standard deviation."
Just received 2 boxes of this from Lehigh. Ammo is too 'bulky' and the slide will jam open when I rack the slide on my Sig P232 and try to chamber a round. Bulkly meaning, the head is more square (like a rectangular bullet) and a tad longer then the traditional .380 round nose. Hope they accept returns! Ammo is not cheap.. $61 for 40 rounds delivered to my door!
I have a Glock 42. So far it has run these flawlessly. They are accurate, consistent, and while I wouldn't call them an ideal defensive round I don't think you can really get much better for a 380. I'm curious to see how the xtreme defender 65gr +P version performs. In fact, I'd be willing to send you some if you wished to test them.
Rick Matson That's hard to figure, because it may be damaging more tissue than what the MacPherson factor was originally created to address. I would say that in general it should probably be about comparable to a flatface cylinder, since it does have a flat face with a sharp edge. A flatface cylinder solid bullet in .355" diameter would have a WTI of 24. But again, this is only an approximation, because the formula was designed back in 1995, long before there was a bullet of this same type and shape.
Hi ShootingTheBull410.... I picked up the last of the 85 grain Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator in 380. They no longer make the 85 grain in 380 ammo. They changed it to 90 grain and upped the power to match. I'm not sure it will penetrate the same. My guess the 90 grain will penetrate more than the 85 grain. I think you will need to retest since this ammo has been changed to 90 grain. Sorry it's kinda bad news. Well maybe not if the 90 grain tests well. Please retest with the 90 grain. Your the best! Thx!!
Shoot some of those LeHigh XP's into some pork shoulders or whatever actual tissue you can get your hand on. They do not generate actual wound paths like they appear to cause in gel. They generate wounds paths that are indistinguishable from FMJ rounds. Te tears in gel are from the limitations in ballistics gel. LeHigh XP rounds make pretty patterns in gel, but they don't do the same thing to pork shoulders...I haven;t tested on other tissue yet. But all my hollow points and fragmenting rounds make far better wounds in Pork shoulders than these Xtreme Penetrators. Don't fall for the trick; they are merely rounds that cu gel, they do not due that to meat.
I've used thawed out pork ribs and they break right through and destroy the meat on the way also tried a few beef steaks true they don't leave a pretty pattern or nothing but they seem to do more damage than any other bullets I've tried
+Alex N sometimes u just gotta stop worrying about that kind of shit tho. In the long run a bullet is a bullet and regardless of what it does inside 6 point blanks to the chest heart and lung area is a bad day for anyone
You are 100% correct. EXPANSION, the larger the object is pushing through flesh and bone the larger the hole and the more energy transfer. Xtreme penetrators transfer more energy to gel than an fmj which means the bad guys lungs get bruised more. Not meaning a bigger hole and bleeding
Great test. I have found that the winchester FN is a bit snappy, compared to many other FMJ. Maybe that's why it penetrates so far, compared to a round nose.
Great Video. One of the best I have seen on this subject\ammunition. I just purchased the Underwood Xtreme Penetrator 90 Gr for my Glock 42. I believe that it is suppose to be the same bullet as the Lehigh. I did not go with the +Ps, which I believe may over penetrate. I'm hoping I made the correct decision.
RockyTop1911 It is the same bullet; Underwood loads the Lehigh bullet. I haven't tested the Underwood version; I would expect deeper penetration in your scenario than what I experienced because a) the G42 has a longer barrel, and b) Underwood loads them a lot hotter. You should see deeper penetration and a wider wound channel. Frankly, I think you probably have a combination that makes for about the most (potentially) effective .380 there is. Expect more recoil from the Underwood loading, but then again, the larger size of the G42 may help tame that some.
A great review. I had not heard of these. I am very intrigued with these in 10mm, 44 magnum, and 45 Colt for woods carry. I wonder how these would compare to the CorBon Hunter loads.
Thank you. For your whole .380 ACP ammo quest series. You saved me personally alot of time and worry, and I'm sure you've saved others two. Now I know that .380 can actually preform well and with the right ammo, I am absolutely willing to carry a micro pocket gun in the caliber.
I was quite impressed with the performance combo of the pocket pistol and these Lehigh bullets or the Precision One XTP's. But for clarification, I think I should at least point out that while the performance is impressive for a pocket pistol, it's still just a pocket pistol, and I think everyone would be best armed by carrying the biggest, most powerful handgun they can reliably and accurately control. For some people, all they can handle (or all they're willing to carry) is a pocket pistol, and for that reason I did this testing -- to find what bullets make a pocket pistol most capable of delivering the most effective incapaciting hits it can. The pocket pistols are so incredibly easy to carry, and therefore more likely to be carried, that combining a pocket pistol with an adequate-performing bullet would make for an appealing combination. I would still always recommend a more powerful pistol whenever possible, but I'm quite impressed with just how well a pocket pistol can perform when combined with the right ammo.
How about a update with the new Lehigh DEFENSE ROUNDS.
Excellent tests, really the best ones on TH-cam. I hope you go on with these for many many more years.
The results on the Lehigh XP are impressive, I love the idea of a "controlled penetration solid", especially in the .380 ACP, but even in the 9mm it is better than many JHPs. It is truly innovative.
Just one more thing: one should not draw conclusions about the damage profile (wound cavity) from the gelatin tests. Ballistic gelatin (regardless of its collagen content) does not have any tensile strength, unlike real tissues. Though it is possible formally to define a similar parameter, it is then dependent on the velocity (is proportional to the square root of the velocity). This behaviour is very different from that of real flesh, so a bullet tears gelatin and flesh in a rather different way.
I remember when the FBI evaluated ammo by filling up the gel cavity with water, and the "volume" measured this way was the performance indicator. It was one of the MOST unscientific things they have ever done.
Gelatin is good for evaluating the penetration ability into soft tissue, nothing more, nothing less.
I have been following you and your quest since buying my first .380 a week ago!
Thank you for doing the footwork for people like me who do not have the time to do so.
I will be ordering Lehigh rounds. I hope they feed through my Taurus spectrum!
Man, this guy does the best and most informative ammo reviews.!!
By far!
Bullet ballistics are something I'm not expert on by any stretch. You videos are helping me a lot.
Watch enough of his videos,and you will become one !
Thanks a ton for all your work. Really gives great info and it's presented in a very professional way. Keep up the good work.
I bought this ammo for my M&P Bodyguard after watching your video. It ran the entire box with no issues. It was actually more reliable than the target ammo. Great stuff! Thanks for taking the time to compile this data. Thanks to it, I have confidence that the ammo in my gun will do it's job if it's ever called on. I had never heard of Lehigh and couldn't find it locally so your help was invaluable. Thanks!
Again, thanks for the report -- it is an unusual bullet shape and that's caused more than a few people to ask about feeding reliability, so hearing reports from real users will hopefully help people make up their minds. I was really impressed with the performance of this round, but -- as said before, if it doesn't feed, it doesn't matter. Glad to hear they're working for you! These are what I have my .380 loaded with.
ShootingTheBull410
Would you do a test of the Underwood Xtreme Penetrator rounds? They make one that is self proclaimed +P at 1200 fps and another that is 1100 fps in standard pressure using the Lehigh Defense XP bullet. Smith and Wesson customer service said +p isn't a good idea. I agree and I know you do too. What about the standard pressure? I'd love to see what some extra power does for that bullet. Thanks!
Like everyone says you have the best reviews. Ive watched all your 9mm and 380 reviews and don't know why I have subscribed until now.
I love your videos because you take a VERY impartial approach to each caliber, and do not allow your own caliber bias to affect your testing/review of ammunition. I like watching your videos to help determine which ammunition will perform for me and my weapons.
Thanks for saying so! Glad you're finding it helpful!
Underwood Ammo has a new xtreme defender round for 380 in standard pressure and +p. I would love to see you run some tests on this new round. If it's anything like the 9mm tests that Mac conducted on the military arms channel you might have a new favorite carry ammo.
I've decided to buy 100 before they sell out. 380 is the hardest bullet to buy for, thanks for another great review.
Excellent video. The dirty little secret about HP's, according to the FBI's "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness", is that they "expand in a human target only 60-70%of the time at best". That means as much as a 40% failure rate (probably higher if there are any barriers involved), and that applies to all the top HPs as well. What more people should know is that there's a 51 page multi-bullet/caliber analysis for law enforcement (entitled: 2016/17 JOINT AGENCY BALLISTICS TEST FOR DEFENSIVE HANDGUN AMMUNITION) that reached the following unqualified conclusion about the Underwood Xtreme Defender: (a fluted solid copper tipped round) "Overall: This was by far the most impressive round tested. After over a year of testing this round became the most requested round to test after some of the agencies reviewed draft shot data." and "The radial flutes increase tissue pressure and direct the tissue outward to increase wound diameter. ... tests confirmed that in over 100 shots the measured wound channel was not only larger than that of an FMJ but in most cases was the largest wound channel produced in that caliber compared to all other rounds to include fully functioning hollow points." and "All rounds in all calibers tested penetrated 15.2 - 20 inches with and without barriers. " and "Every single shot did roughly the same thing. There is a 0% chance of failure to function because there can be no failure to tumble or expand (because they don’t) and no chance to fragment. This was the most Reliable and Consistent round tested." It's discussed on p. 32-33. That's why I've moved all my 9mm pistols and PCC's to the Underwood XD 9mm 90 gr. +P, and my .380 ACP to the Xtreme Penetrator 90 gr. My .45 ACPs will be moved as well, as soon as I can find some Underwood XDs for them.
Pretty cool round, I really like this Lehigh ammo thanks for another great 380 test
Great review. I have been using the Precision One based on your ammo quest. These are more expensive but seem to remove the failure doubt from the equation. I carry a Ruger LC380. It's a great gun for me, easy recoil, and now a great bullet to go with it. Keep up the good ammo reviews. We are watching and learning.
Something that ShootingTheBull didn't mention during the video is tumbling. Tumbling can be a problem with hollow points. If a JHP tumbles it may not expand properly. These Lehighs tumble? That only makes the permanent wound cavity wider. I am suddenly drawn to this ammo because of its resilience to bone. If a hollow point hits a bone it may stop, or it may cause a stress fracture. If a Lehigh hits a bone (depending on the bone) it may cause a compound fracture or shattering effect like a FMJ would.
I live in a state that has very cold climates and I have always been concerned about penetrating a thick Columbia-like winter jacket. I think these Lehighs are the perfect answer to meeting penetration with devastation. Thanks, ShootingTheBull. Great scientific analysis as always.
I like your videos. Don't know if you've seen but Lehigh came out with a modified version, a lighter 65 gr bullet. It looks like they cut deeper grooves in the tip, they said it was to overcome the concern some people had about overpenetration. Oh and they've named their design now, the FTM- Fluid Transfer Monolithic bullet.
WOW WOW WOW. Thats seriously impressive. I have ruled out ever carrying a 380 gun ever due to the ammo issues you have reiterated consistently in your tests. This made me cheer "Yah Lehigh" at the end and then begin considering a Walther PPK.
Do you have any plans on testing their Extreme Defender line that recently came out? Looks pretty similar in design.
the more I see of what Lehigh is doing the more I love them! really like that company and look forward to more of their products!
Interesting bullet thanks for taking the time to do a review on this will have to get a box or two and see how my gun
responds to them.
Awesome that these cycled through the tcp738. I'm getting one just for this reason. I was looking for a pocket pistol/ankle back up for my 24/7 pro g2c 45 or when I can't conceal it. Great reviews! Keep up the good work!
Recently Lehigh Defense has come out with a 65 grain 380 "xtreme defender". They claim 18" penetration and better terminal ballistics than the 380 xp. Wanna try them out for us?? :-)
The Extreme Defender is awesome.
I guess I am too much an old timer to want a bullet that light in my defense gun. Don't care how fast it goes. Seems to be there is the perfect sectional density for each caliber. And 65 is not it for 9 mm. Too short and squat a projectile. But a test would be interesting. Better if bones and skin and jackets were in front of the gelatin. See what it really does at that light weight.
Just got a box. Would love a ballistic gel test
I use the Underwood loading of this "extreme defender" in all my 380s.
@@phigdon3 I do to,but I would really love to see them tested here,used his methodology .I feel.pretty confident that the bigger grooves probably do cut a bigger wound channel ,I just can't help but wonder if they retard the penetration too much.
Excellent review! Thanks for trying to extract the information to the audience in a digestible way.
I've been doing some research ok Lehigh defense ammo, and they are a game changer for me. they have the best ammo money can buy, and I've now made up my mind that I can add a 9-millimeter and 380 to my gun collection even for self-defense carry. thank you for the video
I think it's important to consider that from some target aspects, penetration in excess of 18" can certainly be desirable. It's also worth noting that penetrating skin is supposed to be equivalent to 3" of gel penetration.
I asked on a different video for this and here it is! great work man thank you!
The Swiss should definitely adopt this projectile for their .380 ACP applications. Israel, on the other hand, may prefer the XTP.
It's great to see .380 ACP go up a notch in stopping power (without a compromise). Excellent innovation. Great job, Lehigh Defense. Thanks for giving the shooting public confidence in the manufacturer claims, ShootingTheBull. I credit you with saving good lives through promoting more effective defensive carry ammo.
AFAIK the Swiss (Police and Military) use 9 mm parabellum.
***** Yes they do!
***** I was joking. Look at the bullet shapes. Between the Lehigh Defense XP and the Winchester SilverTip I'd say ShootingTheBull410 already has laid some great groundwork for a Halloween special on self-defense ammunition options against dangerous preternatural creatures (vampires, werewolves, etc.)
Just picked these up for my G42. Seems like the perfect balance. Thanks for the test!
Thank you for all of your effort. I have been watching your videos for some time. Up until a few months ago I carried a Glock 27, my current carry piece is a Glock 42. Your test results in the Lehigh .380 Xtreme Penetrator. This new ammo makes a .380 as effective as a more powerful caliber. I received my Xtreme Penetrator ammo yesterday. Thanks, Bruce Longenecker
Ever since my purchase of a Bersa thunder, I've been doing research on the most effective rounds for a .380. I got suckered into buying G2 RIP ammo, which I keep seeing in other videos having penetration only being up to six inches, while a .177 BB gun only has 3 inches. Now learning there is actually a FBI standard for lethal penetration, I found this most informative on which loads I should use defensively.
I carry my 380's loaded with Underwood Xtreme Defender and Underwood Xtreme Penetrator alternating in the magazine.
You think the way I do. I have always loved the idea of alternating rounds, sometimes I go with a penetrating round and a hollow point that way if everyone gets a double tap,
I can feel good that they got something that will work well to stop them. I have the penetrators and the defenders too, the HP rounds are not good in the .380 because the don't have the power to work well.
@@Billfish57 unless you put all of them in the same hole then this is fudd lore
That's it. Now I can buy a .380.
I am very impressed....Thanks for the help for me choosing my perferred ammo for my 380.
I value your reviews and respect your objective opinions. I've been considering the Lehigh ammo and I'm convinced! Thank you.
New player to the table for 380 pocket pistols. Good show, review.
Picked up three boxes to try out in my S&W BG380. Will post once they arrive and are tested. Great video and thanks STB!
Nice test not many people recognize the reliability and effectiveness of a solid copper FNFMJ with flutes to overcome the limitations of .380ACP. Underwood loads them in +P to 1200fps.
Another well done video!
Thanks you sir!
This channel is my go to for ballistics gel testing. By far!
Great review and great find. I actually just ordered a couple of boxes for my Bodyguard 380. I was going to go to a bigger gun once jacket season comes but I may just stick with the 380.
I would really love to see you test the Xtreme defender. Thank you for your adventure to figure out the best 380 round!
Very informative, I like your methodology and approach. Keep up the good work
Thank you very much for the information and the link to the article. Guess I have some expensive milk jug ammunition to use up. Keep up the great work guys!!
One of the best ammo reviews I've ever seen. Thank you!
Thanks for the quality videos that you supply for your viewers.
Just received my Underwood Loading of the 380 extreme penetrator 20 round box. Can not wait to try them out with 1100 fps from my S&W bodyguard 380. Looking forward to seeing the other calibers such as 9mm, 40S&W, 10mm, 45Acp and my favorite 357 sig. With underwood loadings I bet these things will be trucking!
Thanks for the video.
For some time, I have been unable to find Lehigh XP Xtreme Penetrator 85 grain solid copper 380 ammo at my local dealers.
On the other hand, I have been able to find Fort Scott 95 grain solid copper 380 ammo and Ruger ARX 56 grain solid copper/polymer 380 ammo at my local dealers.
Based on the results of this test, I ordered two boxes of these Xtreme Penetrator Lehigh 380's. I love my Glock 42, and for a while, I carried Precision One XTP's in it and then changed to Underwood HCFN 100gr standard pressure. But after seeing this test, I am impressed enough that I think that these 380's might just be the best round developed yet for the 380. I was already using Lehigh Max Expansion in my 9mm M&P Shield (great pistol by the way) and my Glock 19. I am sold on Lehigh. I didn't want the Max Expansion for the 380, though, because of lack of penetration. I think if my 42 cycles these well (I'm betting it will) I'm going to start carrying it again because I really do love it, and the way it shoots and fits my hand. The Shield is great too, and I can shoot them both with equal ease, so I might just alternate. Anyway, I had a long talk with Mike Cyrus at Lehigh, and I think they might have come up with the perfect 380 round. The bullet design, and dropping the FPS to in the 800's is, I think, perfect for the 380. Thanks for your work, and your vid is what tipped the scales of me buying this ammo.
I am going home to try the Underwood loads using the Extreme Penetrators into my Kahr P380 and then into a newer Kimber Micro Raptor stainless. Great video. Thanks!!!
Why did you not test the Defense round? According to Lehigh it does much more damage. Lehigh recommends it for self-defense and the Penetrator for hunting and such. Lehigh has a video comparison test on their website.
Thanks again for your hard work in our behalf, Ben
The Extreme Defense in 380 didn't exist when he did this video.
Would be interested in seeing the comparison between the Lehigh Defense .380 XP vs. the Inceptor ARX .380 by polycase. Thanks for putting these videos out.
i am curious to see the Lehigh xtreme penetrator vs Lehigh defender in .380
Same just got a box of extreme defender in 380
Paul Harrell just did a video on the 68 grain xd
The XTP tests I've seen, it overpenetrates greatly.
Please test the Underwood 380 ACP 65 Grain Extreme Defender and 9mm Luger 90 grain. Love your videos. Your reviews are outstanding.
I am more impressed with LeeHi all the time. Usually "exotic ammo" is a euphemism for B.S. I have yet to see anyone test a product of theirs that doesn't basically perform as claimed.
I don't know if you have the capability, but a video I would really like to see is a comparison of this to the top performing conventional HP (XTP) in gel with a rib simulant. Obviously, there is a very good chance that any defensive shot will encounter a rib. Yet very few of the tests account for the effects of striking a hard object on HP performance.
Extensive previous testing by several agencies has shown that ribs are meaningless is testing. You can easily put something as dull as a screwdriver right through a human rib by hand.
Im sold on this ammo now. Awesome studies!
Both the XD and XP underwood loads ran flawlessly through my Bodyguard today.
My new 380 carry load.
This ammo runs great through my Ruger LCP. I love innovation. Especially innovation that works. Seems like Lehigh may be onto something here.
After watching this video... I got very excited thinking I could carry my bersa cc and feel good about the 380 load. I ordered two boxes of the Lehigh xp ammo and went to the range today... I was disappointed. I had ftf on every other round... I had to sling shot the slide to put into battery after the ftf and had to drop the mag on some as well. I read an earlier post that someone had no problems with their bersa. This weapon has been 100% flawless... I love it. But it looks like I'll be carrying the bersa cc with precision one rounds instead of the Lehigh XP. Still a good choice though...
Would definitely like to see some tests on the new Lehigh Xtreme Defense 65 grain! And a comparison to Underwood's load of the same bullet would be nice as well.
I bought the underwood +P version of this bullet. It's my new carry round. Previously i carried buffalo bore 100gr+P hard cast flat nose rounds.
I have some of Underwoods recently manufactured .380acp Xtreme penetrators and they have changed slightly.
The meplat on yours is sharp and squared off. The current offering from Underwood has a rounded off meplat.
My only guess as to why the meplat of the projectile has been changed is for more reliable feeding.
Now I wonder how significant the damage would be between the two. Thanks for all the great videos.
Love your videos!! Any chance you will do a video using the new Lehigh Xtreme Defense (not Penetrator) from both Lehigh and from Underwood??? Pretty please!!!!!
I would love to see these tested in .38 special. Preferably a 3" barrel, but I have a feeling your .38sp tests will be with a snubby. I'll take whatever I can get!
This bullet almost makes me want a .380 again. I went to a 9mm and currently run Federal 124 gr. HST based on your review.
Those fractures in the gelatin are not part of the permanent cavity, but are the result of gel being stretched beyond its elastic limit. Gelatin is less elastic than most human tissues so it is not representative of wounding. It certainly does seem to indicate that a whole lot of *something* is going on here, though. Thank you for another excellent video and review.
I have to agree. after using this bullet for hunting, I've come to two conclusions: The XP bullet causes greater damage, and bleeding, than a SWC. The XP bullet does NOT cause a bigger wound channel than a hollow point.
The fact remains, an expanded hollow point gives you the greatest chance of penetration through something vital. In pistols, bullets really seem to only damage what they physically touch.
With that in mind, the XP bullet is an amazing hunting cartridge. They bleed faster and show a much better trail (Than a SWC).
+Jonathan Langford +The Chopping Block
"They bleed faster and show a much better trail."
OK... But they don't cause greater damage? Then where does the extra blood come from? You can't have it both ways.
The point about relative elasticity is good - are you aware of any hard evidence/testing that can quantify this? It's a very important point you make, Chopper!
I said greater than a swc.
+Alan Montgomery The FBI paper "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" covers this pretty well. Dr. Fackler and Dr. Roberts also refer to this effect in their writing. Generally speaking, the projectile velocity at which the stretch cavity tends to exceed the elastic limit of tissue is approximately 2,000 fps. Of course, this isn't a hard limit and projectile shape, weight, and construction also have an effect, but it's safe to say that at 1,500 fps, the stretch cavity is unable to contribute substantively to wounding and at 2,500 fps, the stretch cavity causes significant tearing. The tearing is dramatically increased with projectile fragmentation, which is one reason that fragmenting 5.56mm ammunition is so devastating.
+Jonathan Langford I haven't done a direct comparison, but I'll bet it's safe to say the XP cuts a little better channel than a SWC. Probably less than flat point or WC bullets, though, and a lot worse than JHP. If you take a look at my 9mm Extreme Penetrator test, you can see there is more disruption in the gel from the FMJ than there is from the XP. I remain unconvinced that the XP is good for anything other than separating shooters from their money.
WoW! I'm impressed and that don't happen often. I don't have a .380 anymore, but I'd really like to see tests w/ .45Colt, .45ACP, and 9mm! Well and the .44 mag, but any 44mag pretty much demolishes what it hits. I do wish their 9mm bullet was a little heavier than 85gr though. More like 147gr but beggars can't be choosers!
Aloha.
Excellent video, testing controls and analysis, as always.
I don't know who my wallet hates more, Lehigh Defense for re-inventing the bullet (again) or you for showing it to me and proving the results.
I bit the bullet a long time ago and have been using a box of the Lehigh Defense Maximum Expansion .380 ACP in my EDC's. Now, I guess I am going to bite the bullet again and order a box of the Lehigh Defense XP Xtreme Penetrator .380 ACP.
Now if only I could get KelTec to make a double-stack version of the P3AT, much like the P11 is the double-stack version of the PF9, I would be an EDC .380 Pocket Pistol Extreme Happy Camper. To go from 6+1 standard magazine to say 9+1, and from 9+1 on the extended magazines (which give a perfect full 3-finger grip) to say 14+1.....that would be worth the slightly wider grip on the gun. Heck, lots of people find the P3AT too slim in the grip, and add sleeves to fatten them up.....why not fill that space with more bullets?
Peace & Prepare
Pax et Paro
Amazing a boutique type bullet that looks like it may actually work. Definitely one to consider. It will be interesting to see if it develops a street record or if someone will give it a go on some feral hogs.
I need to go back through the 380 series and look at all of the rounds tested using the Hornady XTP's. To be honest I find the varying degree of performance of the XTP's amongst the ammo brands interesting. The varying degree of XTP performance is either due to developed velocity across the different loads or due to Hornady quality control from production run to production run. To me it has to be one or the other.
The series really points out how little the performance differs between RN-FMJ's and FP-FMJ's. I'm old enough to remember when Hornnady introduced the FP-FMJ's and how they were felt to be so much more effective than RN-FMJ's in those pre ordinance gelatin days.
Enjoy your videos. I hope in the near future you will consider trying the Underwood ACP 65 grain Xtreme Defender in the 380 caliber. The bullet is purchased from Lehigh Defense and it's practically the same only lighter in weight with a faster round. It would make for some interesting data comparison with the Lehigh Defense 90 grain XP. So far the Lehigh Defense is my go to carry ammo but things could change depending on the results. Thanks.
By the way. The Lehigh XP shoots great in my Kahr P380. I've broken it in and all the new gun issues are gone. Best thing I did was polish the feed ramp to a higher luster. The muzzle velocity seems to be inline with the longer barrels like the Taurus has. The polygonal barrel makes up for being 1/4+" shorter.
Hi, I love your show!! Lehigh has come out with a new 380. Called Xtreme Defense. It has a different configured bullet. I would appreciate you doing a test on it. Suppose to be better than the Penetrator.
Thanks
Thanks for all your effort on these videos. I've done some primitive ballistic testing using a "Fakler Box". This is basically a wooden trough that holds gallon plastic bags filled with water. Take the inches of penetration in this set up and divide by 1.8 and you get a pretty good approximation of penetration in gel. Using this set up and factor on many other types of ammo its proven to be very close to actual ballistic gel penetration tests. All of that to say this:
I tested the 85 grain XP from an LCP through two layers of t-shirt material and got 46 inches of penetration which would factor out to around 25 inches in gel. I'd be curious to see if you tested some more of these XP 380s in actual gel if you might get some significant overpenetrators like this.
I'm not sure you can accurately mathematically calculate water penetration of a solid projectile (such as an FMJ, or an XP) and attribute that to an equivalent of gel penetration, can you? Water can be an excellent no-cost alternative for opening bullets up, for testing hollowpoints, and generally the ratio of somewhere between 1.6 and 2.5 can come close to predicting what gel penetration would have been. But with a non-expanding or non-opening bullet, I'm not sure the correlation would hold. Interesting question...
Duncan MacPherson proposed using water to test bullets, but his method was specifically oriented towards hollowpoints, not solid projectiles. Shawn Dodson, who runs firearmstactical.com, has published an article with a method described; in Briefs #3 they mention a method using 1/2-gallon cardboard milk cartons, where you are supposed to count the # of cartons the bullet penetrates and then multiply that by 2.5. Seeing as a cardboard milk carton has about a 95mm square footprint, that would mean that a bullet that penetrates 8 milk cartons (and stops at the beginning of the 9th) would have traveled 30 inches of water. According to the FirearmsTactical article, you'd multiply the 8 cartons x 2.5 = 20 inches of (equivalent) gel penetration. So if 30 inches of water = approx. 20 inches of gel penetration, that would mean the ratio you should be using is about 1.5:1. However, according to The Box O' Truth guy, he says that Gary Roberts told him "You can also use the water testing to get a rough estimate of bullet penetration depth in soft tissue-bullets penetrate approximately 1.6 to 2 times as much in water as in soft tissue”. Perhaps the larger numbers are to account for the slight resistance factor of the milk carton's sidewalls? And then there's Charles Schwartz of Quantitative Ammunition Selection; he uses water testing in his method, and he says he's seen numbers from 1.6 to 2.5x.
So what's the real number? And does any of it apply to solid projectiles? I can't say, as I haven't tested solid projectiles in water. I know that MacPherson's original recommendation for using water was as a means to get the bullet to open up, but he didn't recommend measuring the depth in water, he instead would use his mathematical formula to take into account the forces involved that water doesn't exhibit. And Schwartz does the same thing; his book doesn't talk about using the measured depth, just using water to open the bullet up and then using math to determine what the penetration would have been. Which is a long way to say -- I'm not sure water testing of solid projectiles is an appropriately correlatable method. Maybe it is, but I just don't know.
As for XP's, I've shot them in bare and denim-covered gel blocks and in ClearBallistics blocks, and they've all stopped less than 20". I have had FMJ's go 25" to 27" in gel, but I haven't seen an XP go anywhere near that far.
(oh, and kudos to you for using water bags, rather than plastic jugs! There are people out there using plastic jugs, and those can have a substantial detrimental effect on penetration. Fackler originally specified paper-sided milk cartons, and Schwartz recommends the thin plastic bags; neither of those will substantially affect the penetration).
Time to retest. Lehigh website states they have changed bullet weight and velocity. I would like to see that it still performs. As always, thank you for the quality vids.
Per Charles Schwartz, 2012, "Quantitative Ammunition Selection," iUniverse, Bloomington, IN, given identical bullet sectional density and velocity, the cruciform flat nose bullet will penetrate 8.3% less than a FMJ-RN bullet, but will damage 4.2% more tissue along the length of the wound channel.
Where have you been? There is new ammo out there and I haven't heard from you in a long time. You and TNOutdoors9 were the best in ammo test. Miss you guys.
I would love to see you do a review on Lehigh extreme defense 68 grain
Great video. ShootingTheBull410 any chance for a follow up video on LDXD or Underwood XD in .380? Very interested in seeing how they perform versus the LDXP or UnderWood XP in.380.
Interesting results; nice job. I often carry a Sig P238 that certainly falls into the subcompact category. But every once in awhile I carry my Browning 1911-380. My guess is that the longer barrel may push this Lehigh into the over penetration zone.
Great review, good job.
I carry a 380 with the extreme defender. I like your videos. Could you please test the extreme defender for us?
Do you have plans to do a test video of Lehigh ' s new extreme defender round? Supposedly, it's designed to stay under 18" while still doing the damage of extreme penetrator. I'm curious if it achieves above 12" and under 18", of course out of a micro pistol. In particular, I have a Kahr P380. Thank you though, I love your videos! Very helpful!
I'd like to see you test the Underwood Lehieh Xtreme defense round in .380 standard pressure 65 grain. Thanks for your excellent work.
Just bought some of the re-designed Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator ammo from Underwood. Immediately noticed that the nose design is significantly different than the old version. The leading edge size (the "plus sign") is significantly smaller on the new design. Lehigh/Underwood say this is to allow more reliable feeding through more gun designs. But, this "tweek" to the design certainly could cause major difference in penetration depth/wound track size.
There are no current reviews of this new bullet (redesigned approx 4 months ago) and since you are clearly, unquestionably the best reviewer of carry gun ammo, could I possibly convince you to try out the new Xtreme Penetrator???
Yes we need a test on the new redesigned .380 extreme penetrators
Can you do a review and compare Lehigh Defense's 380 Auto 65gr Xtreme Defense Ammunition, 380 Auto 68gr Maximum Expansion Ammunition, 380 Auto 75gr Controlled Fracturing Ammunition, and the 380 Auto 90gr Xtreme Penetrator Ammunition
LD’s XP round ..... great winter weather carry round. Summer, switch to their XD round. These are great 380 rounds. Over penetration is almost never an issue for 380.
Well, the .380 round is now sold out on Lehigh's website. These AmmoQuest videos are having a HUGE impact on sales and popularity of defensive rounds.
Love your videos! Like the dozens of other comments on this one in particular, will you PLEASE compare the Lehigh/Underwood Extreme Defender 380ACP to the Extreme Penetrator. The redesigned (deeper) flutes on the nose of the projectile are supposed to reduce the possibility of over penetrating while simultaneously INCREASING the temporary and permanent wound cavity. I'm begging you to compare the two.....and feel free to throw in their +P loadings (yes, I know about "no official SAAMI specs on +P 380ACP"....but they DO load and sell them as well! :)).
69CamaroSS407 n
Hey ShootingTheBull410 you stated that the FBI's standard for handgun ammunition is between 12 and 18 inches. Can you post a link to where you found that? I was reading the "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" published by the FBI and they really downplayed over penetration.
Over penetration is bad due to shoot through liability issues. That being said, loss of "hydraulic pressure" is what stops an active perpetrator. Larger holes, larger permanent cavities, and more holes in center of mass are what count to create that effect. However the only "instant" stop is a direct hit to the brain stem/top of spinal column. A .22 lr is sufficient for that task.
Urey Patrick's "Handgun Wounding Factors & Effectiveness" is an extremely helpful document, and it does indeed downplay the fear of overpenetration risks -- meaning, people shouldn't be paralyzed about the prospect that a bullet might overpenetrate, since the hit ratio in police combat is so low (various departments have reported their shots-fired hit/miss ratio, and it usually ranges around 17% (1 hit out of six shots fired) up to the highest I've seen reported, 49%.) Meaning, as Mr. Patrick rightly points out, shots that miss the intended target completely are far more dangerous than shots that hit the target and happen to overpenetrate out the back of the target.
That said, nobody wants a bullet to overpenetrate. It's still considered a bad thing, it's just not the most important factor and it's not something that should cause a person to choose shallow-penetrating ammo instead, just to avoid.
The statement about an 18" maximum in that document is found on page 11, where it states that "penetration up to 18 inches is preferable."
The exact language that the FBI used in their RFP for 5.56x45mm ammo is:
"It is desired that projectiles penetrate between 12 - 18 inches into the ballistic gelatin and expand to maximum diameter potential, while retaining as much of the original weight as possible. Greater technical merit will be achieved by those samples demonstrating a consistent overall penetration average between 12 - 18 inches with the smallest standard deviation."
ShootingTheBull410 outstanding thank you.
I love your videos! Another great one. Thanks!
Just received 2 boxes of this from Lehigh. Ammo is too 'bulky' and the slide will jam open when I rack the slide on my Sig P232 and try to chamber a round. Bulkly meaning, the head is more square (like a rectangular bullet) and a tad longer then the traditional .380 round nose. Hope they accept returns! Ammo is not cheap.. $61 for 40 rounds delivered to my door!
I have a Glock 42. So far it has run these flawlessly. They are accurate, consistent, and while I wouldn't call them an ideal defensive round I don't think you can really get much better for a 380.
I'm curious to see how the xtreme defender 65gr +P version performs. In fact, I'd be willing to send you some if you wished to test them.
im hoping for a test on the 65 grain in as well for my glock 42
I was curious as to what the MacPherson WTI is for the Lehigh Defense XP Xtreme Penetrator Is? Thanks for a great series of informative videos!!
Rick Matson That's hard to figure, because it may be damaging more tissue than what the MacPherson factor was originally created to address. I would say that in general it should probably be about comparable to a flatface cylinder, since it does have a flat face with a sharp edge. A flatface cylinder solid bullet in .355" diameter would have a WTI of 24. But again, this is only an approximation, because the formula was designed back in 1995, long before there was a bullet of this same type and shape.
Please test the Underwood 65 grain extreme defender +P. You are doing a great job. Thank you.
Federal HST in 9 and 45, these in .380. A winning combination.
Excellent test and video. Thank you.
Hi ShootingTheBull410.... I picked up the last of the 85 grain Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator in 380. They no longer make the 85 grain in 380 ammo. They changed it to 90 grain and upped the power to match. I'm not sure it will penetrate the same. My guess the 90 grain will penetrate more than the 85 grain. I think you will need to retest since this ammo has been changed to 90 grain. Sorry it's kinda bad news. Well maybe not if the 90 grain tests well. Please retest with the 90 grain. Your the best! Thx!!
Thank you. Have you considered exploring the penetrator’s close relative Xtreme Defense?
Shoot some of those LeHigh XP's into some pork shoulders or whatever actual tissue you can get your hand on. They do not generate actual wound paths like they appear to cause in gel. They generate wounds paths that are indistinguishable from FMJ rounds. Te tears in gel are from the limitations in ballistics gel. LeHigh XP rounds make pretty patterns in gel, but they don't do the same thing to pork shoulders...I haven;t tested on other tissue yet. But all my hollow points and fragmenting rounds make far better wounds in Pork shoulders than these Xtreme Penetrators. Don't fall for the trick; they are merely rounds that cu gel, they do not due that to meat.
I've used thawed out pork ribs and they break right through and destroy the meat on the way also tried a few beef steaks true they don't leave a pretty pattern or nothing but they seem to do more damage than any other bullets I've tried
+Alex N sometimes u just gotta stop worrying about that kind of shit tho. In the long run a bullet is a bullet and regardless of what it does inside 6 point blanks to the chest heart and lung area is a bad day for anyone
damn right
Or the cranium..
You are 100% correct. EXPANSION, the larger the object is pushing through flesh and bone the larger the hole and the more energy transfer. Xtreme penetrators transfer more energy to gel than an fmj which means the bad guys lungs get bruised more. Not meaning a bigger hole and bleeding
Great test. I have found that the winchester FN is a bit snappy, compared to many other FMJ. Maybe that's why it penetrates so far, compared to a round nose.
Great Video. One of the best I have seen on this subject\ammunition. I just purchased the Underwood Xtreme Penetrator 90 Gr for my Glock 42. I believe that it is suppose to be the same bullet as the Lehigh. I did not go with the +Ps, which I believe may over penetrate. I'm hoping I made the correct decision.
RockyTop1911 It is the same bullet; Underwood loads the Lehigh bullet. I haven't tested the Underwood version; I would expect deeper penetration in your scenario than what I experienced because a) the G42 has a longer barrel, and b) Underwood loads them a lot hotter. You should see deeper penetration and a wider wound channel. Frankly, I think you probably have a combination that makes for about the most (potentially) effective .380 there is. Expect more recoil from the Underwood loading, but then again, the larger size of the G42 may help tame that some.
ShootingTheBull410
Thank you.
A great review. I had not heard of these. I am very intrigued with these in 10mm, 44 magnum, and 45 Colt for woods carry. I wonder how these would compare to the CorBon Hunter loads.