Ammo Quest .380 Final Wrapup: finding the BEST ammo for a .380ACP pistol
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- Twenty-seventh in a series of a quest to find the overall best ammunition for modern micro-compact 380 ACP pistols (such as the Taurus TCP 738, the Ruger LCP, Sig P238, Beretta Pico, Kel-Tec P3AT or S&W Bodyguard or any other popular 380 micro-pistol using a barrel length of around 2.8").
This is the final wrap-up. All testing is complete, so in this video I go through what the results were and classify and categorize the ammo to determine which performs best and which I would use for self defense purposes.
Note: I'm not making any claims for these videos other than that these are the results I achieved, in my own testing, from the stated pistol. I have no intention to make a blanket endorsement or indictment of any product, only to review and report what I found in a given instance. Obviously it is incumbent upon each individual to conduct their own research and make up their own mind about which defensive ammunition is best for their own purposes, in their own firearms. Also keep in mind that individual firearms can be persnickety; my TCP may feed a particular round consistently whereas your TCP might jam on those rounds, so -- please conduct your own testing before trusting any particular ammo.
For further reading and future reference, visit the blog post at shootingthebull.... There you will find reference tables, pictures, and links to all the tests.
Subscribe to the channel here to see the rest of the episodes in this series, as well as other ammo tests and equipment reviews. And check out the blog at www.shootingthebull.net.
Isn't it about time to update this video? The LCP Max has made this caliber a contender for a whole new group of shooters.
Would love this with newer ammo
13 rounds of .380 in a highly concealable hand-sized gun is formidable, indeed. It's what I carry...loaded with one of his early disqualified rounds and I couldn't be happier with it's function and I'm confident in the round too.
@@treal512 for a self defense pistol id think about an invader wearing cheap body armor a whole lot more then overpenetration potential hitting actually anything, which atleast in a home imo is very unlikely
@@hotdog9262
Show me a single instance of a dumbass home invader showing up with body armor in the last 2 years and I'll add that to my list of concerns.
@@hotdog9262 in a home defense encounter, you should be using something more powerful than a pistol of any caliber.
Hats off to the folks from Precision One. They’re a small operation in my hometown in SC. Awesome group of people who work their asses off to make a premium product at a rate not seen by the larger manufacturers. They always have an assortment of calibers on the shelves even during these trying times. Keep up the good work Tony we love ya!!!
i got got mine , nice folks
Precision One is my go to when it comes to 45-70
@@geofft7664 good to hear support for our local small business.
Yep, that's a real surprise for a local outfit.
I miss this guy!
This is now one of my favorite videos of all time. I wish I could repay you for all the hard work you had to do to finally come to the conclusions you reached here. Thank you.
Glad you found it helpful!
ShootingTheBull410
Do you have any videos where you recommend a pocket 380? I've been looking for a pocket 9mm for a long time because I was under the impression that there were NO 380 offerings that would consistently reach at least 12 in of penetration. After I saw this video, I now know that 380 is a viable option for carry, so I'm gun shopping all over again, and I'm feeling dizzy from all the mixed reviews on virtually every gun available.
JC545X39 I haven't done any comprehensive reviews on pocket pistols yet. I can say that I think the TCP is really a surprisingly good bargain for the price, but there may be better pistols if you're willing to spend more. The Glock 42 is a very very nice little pistol, but it's basically the same size as a Pocket 9.
I would recommend heading over to Pocket Guns and Gear, as the proprieter there seems to have bought, carried, and used just about all the various pocket guns, and he can likely give you comprehensive first-hand information.
mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/
th-cam.com/users/PocketGunsandGear
ShootingTheBull410
Okay, I will do that. Thank you very much!
6:57 is why we are all here. 9:24 winner.
AMERRICK may god bless your Christmas this year. I was hoping somebody had cut to the chase for me
Thank you.
Have my like, sir.
Thank you!
no qa
in the last 3 years 380ACP bullets have been redesigned for better expansion. I'm going to have to do this test again. Even the powder has gotten better.
I really appreciate the .380 acp comparison. I have 3 different pistols in .380 caliber and I think they get a bad rep by a lotta folks, but the way I look at it is if you are coming through my bedroom window and are basically about 8 to 10 feet from me I think a .380 will solve the problem, and I don't have to worry about it cruising through my neighbors wall and killing a child or parent! My dad always said become proficient with what ever caliber you use and its not so much the size as it is placement. Keep up the good work. Im looking forward to seeing whats next.
A .380 hollowpoint is unlikely to overpenetrate the bad guy and then continue on to pose a risk to neighbors etc, that's true. But missed shots are a whole different matter; a .380 that misses the bad guy will definitely bust through walls and pose a very serious hazard to someone on the other side of those walls, so ... best advice (as always) is: don't miss!
just recently purchased a small 380 as a backup, and these videos were extremely helpful in narrowing down ammunition choices. simple, to the point explanations of results, clear and comparable to other rounds. thank you for taking the time to share these with us.
Your videos are fantastic, the wealth of information you provide is superb, and nobody I have seen is even coming close. I cannot believe you don't have more subscribers. Thank you sir!
Thanks for all the kind words! The subscriber base is coming along; I think when I posted this vid I had only about 2,000 subscribers, so it's certainly growing. Glad you found the video helpful!
Awesome series. I am switching my carry gun from the Glock 19 the Sig 238 HD and did have some ammo concerns. Thanks for taking the time to do this for us.
Glad you're finding it helpful!
Did it shoot well in your P238?
@@robalan57 It shoots superbly in my Sig P238.
Mike glad you're moving up from a Glock to the Glorious Sig P238 that's a fine little 380 now I have the Kimber micro I love it too both excellent 380s!
@@jerrydonquixote5927 man, I just bought a beautiful p238 Spartan, but kind of regretting it and wishing I had purchased the 9mm version. Didn't think I had concerns about caliber, but here I am. . .
Great Job! Thank you for being the first reviewer to pick the top few performers in a caliber/category!! I appreciate your work, and enjoy your videos. I NEVER would have guessed that Fiocchi would have been one of the very best...ever. I would love to see snubby tests in a similar manner (38 + P and .357 mag), and small pocket 9mm. Congrats on putting together such good work for the concealed carry community.
The aversion and fear of .380 ACP is a purely American phenomena. People in other countries can only legally carry .380 or .38 spl revolvers. It is an effective round and has killed most of the Mafia Dons in Italy because it is the most available gun there. In Brazil, the only legal round for auto-loaders are .380 ACP.
Aversion and fear? It's simply an understanding of ballistics, which shows the relative inefficiency of the .380, in modern loadings. Plenty of murders in the U.S. are committed with .22's .25's, and chef's knives, but does that mean that those are amazingly effective self-defense weapons? No, of course it doesn't. Choose the most effective option you legally can, but over here, where we can carry 9mm and larger, 9mm will remain king. Also note that quite a few countries, if they don't prohibit carry altogether, prohibit the use of hollow point projectiles out of ignorance- but does that mean that standard FMJ projectiles are appropriate for self-defense in more reasonable countries? For the most part, and for most CC'ers, the answer is no (in certain cases FMJ's are the best choice, especially with .22's, or, really, anything weaker than .380).
A .380 out of a 4 inch gun, like a Bersa or Beretta, is better than a 9mm in a 2.3 inch gun. Two very controled shots with .380 ACP are way better than two hard to control .40 sw. Shoot what you can.
Nestor Negron-Diaz
I agree wholeheartedly. My point is that, in the modern firearms industry, there isn't as much advantage to the .380, for three reasons:
1- A decent amount of CC'ers (in the U.S., at least) carry larger handguns than would normally, historically, be carried; this is simply a side effect of the rise in "preparedness" philosophy, and the more advanced study of civilian self defense.
2- Modern designs and metallurgy have allowed the higher-pressure 9mm to be fired from smaller and smaller pistols, in some cases reaching the size of previous .380's (e.g., the .380 Walther PPK and PPK/s), though there are a good few .380 handguns that remain smaller than comparable 9mm's; and, of course, .380 has less recoil than 9mm in these small, lightweight handguns, though both are usually quite jumpy.
3- Compared to 9mm, .380 has a much harder time having enough energy and velocity to expand hollow point bullets (while still getting effective penetration), and plenty of ammunition companies also don't subscribe to the FBI/IWBA specifications for effective bullet performance, so rather than channel the .380's performance into a balanced expander and penetrator, they design their bullets for more expansion and less penetration, leaving very few commercially available hollow points that are effective according to FBI/IWBA specifications. This drives some CC'ers to carry FMJ, flatnose/wadcutters, or other solid non expanding bullet designs, which means that the majority of CC'ers who can't imagine not using hollow points choose a more powerful caliber (usually the 9mm) in place of .380.
Historically, .380 was the most powerful CC/pocket pistol cartridge, as due to the technology of the time, 9mm and larger were reserved for full-size service handguns. Nowadays the technology allows for more powerful cartridges in compact, yet still controllable, packages. On a tangent here, why is the only semi-auto round allowed in Brazil the .380? Normally countries that ban specific calibers ban "military" calibers, such as 9x19mm, .45, etc., in which case, the .380 would be among them (it was used by the Italian and German militaries during WW2); though, sometimes, this restriction only applies to calibers in use by said country's military, or ones said country's military used in the past. This "military caliber" is why the 9x21mm was developed. I would expect Brazil to also allow .22, .25, .32, and other "non-military" calibers. .380 is a rather unique cartridge to be the only legal cartridge, though I am certainly glad it isn't banned there- but I would find it interesting to hear what their reasoning is in allowing the .380 over other calibers.
This is an excellent post. You write with facts and documented sayings. As the reasoning for not banning .380 I don't know. Perhaps the same insane reasoning of California , and Massachusetts for having only 10 rds mag. The erican gum culture os unique and my post refers to what I perceive as a non favt based ompressions of the 380. You certainly have facts, but way many other people dont
I have Ccw permit in Puerto Rico and carry a HK45C and a Taurus TCP 380. I made a TH-cam video about the difficulties of carry in our Commonwealth.
Andrew Tadsen It will all change as it always does-- new ammo will give the .380 carrier a weapon to be reckoned with-- Polycase for example
Excellent research and honest findings. Thanks for your efforts for those of us wondering if a little .380 was a viable carry option.
Excellent research. Obviously non biased. Thank you
You rock man. Thanks for doing this! I just purchased my first .380 ACP pistol because of your testing.
i just got my ruger 380 lcp this video was just everything i needed no bullshit just straight information i know now what ammo to buy thank you so much sir
I know this was done awhile ago, but just wanted to say thanks very much. Those were really surprising results. Now I feel much better about carrying my G42 with the right ammo...
Thanks! Glad you found it helpful.
agreed! I'm very impressed to have such a concise breakdown in one place/video. Thank you!
Love my g42 more than I ever thought i would. It's so easy to hit shit with, And with xtp I don't feel under powered at all.
Over the last 3 nights I've tuned in to watch all the 380 vids. Bravo sir! Thanks for taking the time and expenses to provide these for the public. I've saved a lot of money not having to do this myself. Thanks man, good shooting.
Thanks for the nice words! Glad you found it helpful.
My new carry load will be Precision One or Federal Hydra Shok for my Bersa Thunder 380. Thanks for your work.
Any preference or performance update with the Bersa using those loads?
Thank you for your excellent, concise and goal oriented testing. Albeit, expensive and time consuming it is absolutely necessary for anyone that ends up in a self-defense incident to be able to show that they followed similar to police or FBI standards for ammunition selection, excluding of course the penetration requirements for shooting through cars etc which in self-defense would be considered excessive. We have all heard "that every bullet has an attorney attached to it" so hitting and not missing the target, and shooting bullets that penetrate adequately but don't over penetrate should be our goals also. Thank You!!!
I LIKE your Ammo Reviews. Keep Up the Good Work.
Over all, this was a very informative series, IMHO. I only carry my P3AT in warm weather when I dress light and so do most potential attackers. I do know that back in the 70s, I had to shoot a Doberman (attacked me in my yard) with a .380 Silvertip from a KBI (Walther ppk knock off). It was about 8 feet away, head shot, and it dropped in its tracks. That's a 3 inch barrel though.
I appreciate your findings with more modern ammo. Keep up the good work.
Thank you for a very great review for the 380 rounds - Very much appreciated
This was the ballistics Channel that I learned everything I know of course I still watch Channels and keep learning but this is what got me interested in ballistics
Another factor is whether or not a brand of ammo will feed properly when cycled. I found that unfired Hornady Critical Defense 380 routinely hangs up in the ejection port when I manually cycle the slide... and it hangs up HARD. Sometimes I need to pry the hung round from the port with my Swiss Army Knife. The "pink eraser" stuff in the hollow point of the CD bullet bulges out just a wee bit, enough to make the unfired round too long to clear the LCP ejection port. I tried shaving off the "bulge" with a razor blade, and it still hangs up. Other XTP 380 rounds without the pink "eraser" tip work and cycle manually just fine. Fired cases eject reliably because the case is much shorter since the bullet is gone, which is good. However, when an unfired round needs to be manually ejected due to a misfire or any other reason, it needs to eject immediately and reliably without a hangup. Due to this, I no longer use Hornady Critical Defense 380 in my Ruger LCP.
Don't expect perfect hand cycling. They are made to cycle really fast
Joel k that's why you get you a real 380 with an external Hammer like a Sig P238 Kimber micro then you can keep One in the Chamber and let the hammer down and you're not unsafe and it will cycle just fine when you shoot it you don't have to worry about hand cycling them!
This series of tests caused me to rethink carrying the Critical Defense round in my LCP.
So because of the overall lack of currently available .380 ACP defensive ammo I luckily found and ordered four boxes of the Fiocchi Extrema to test run in my LCP.
Since everything so far runs through it I am sure this will as well.
Please keep up this excellent and informative effort.
Well done!!
A lot of work, thank you. Shame that everything changes with a longer barrel medium size pistol.
True...I carry the Gold Dot 90gr in my Walther PP with the 3.9" barrel. Nothing expands like a Gold Dot!
Thank you for your in depth testing and review. It's nice to see someone taking the time to do testing properly i.e. scientifically. It is so helpful to cut through the B.S. of ammo advertising. You can't beat getting raw data not filtered through a manufacturers marketing department.
The only thing I wish you could do different would be to use a larger sample size per round something like 10 times larger (50 rounds). Despite your methodical testing and controls, I think there are still enough variables that 5 rounds might not give the best picture into a particular rounds performance. This is by no means a criticism, the sheer cost of your time and the materials needed make that kind of testing prohibitive.
Again, thanks, keep up the good work!
P.S. If you get the time and inclination it would be nice to see some testing of rounds that did not make this series like Winchester "W" Defend, and Corbon Pow'RBall, and perhaps a couple frangible rounds, e.g. Glaser Safety Slug.
Thank you so much for this wealth of information. I really appreciate your hard work.
Very valuable and timely for me. I’m 77 and just bought my first .380. I have many 9mm but this is new to me. Never heard of Precision One. Gotta check them out. Thank you.
thank you very much for testing! This has great value to every .380 owner!
my main carry is a kimber master carry pro 4 in , 45 but there ARE times when you might/probably want something smaller due to a lot of reasons . ANY thing that goes bang & stops an attack is good . My SF friend HATES anything that isn't a 38 spl wheel gun and if its plastic ... well__ you gonna hell... in spite of that I went with the taurus TCP which is why I really enjoyed your video ... finally got to the 27th to find the winner & settled on the hydra shok Thanks for a great video
Amazing work! We need to revisit this with Federal's new "Hydra Shok Deep" ammo.
Hydra-Shok Deep is like the P365 against all the single stack pocket/micro 9mm back in 2018, in other words, a game changer. It's designed to go beyond 12 inches, and the hollow point is designed to expand, even if someone just spit on it (well, slight exaggeration). So I bet he's going to re-categorize his ammo selections: Hydra-Shok Deep in the winner's circle, the rest in another group :)
Id like to see if the hydra shock deep has problems expanding in heavy denim layers since I seen on tools&targets channel the hydro deeps didn’t expand threw 4 layers of denim but still plenty of penetration
I think fmjs are most effective in 22 caliber pistol and I wouldn't bother with hollow point in 22 caliber pistol (rifle however is another story). There is forensic evidence of that particular caliber when fired from a pistol of having a decent probability of "bouncing around" (following an erractic path) inside the attacker's torso or skull potentially causing substantial non-localized internal damage and death. My home defense gun is sr22 pistol using 40g CCI tactical round nose ammo and a laser sight for quicker target aquisition, also the light recoil allows me to get faster and more accurate follow-up shots.
Great video. Did you happen to do any tests on Freedom Munitions .380 XTP? They're made in the U.S.A. & cost less than half the price of Fiocchi, Precision one, etc.
My .380 backup is loaded with Federal Premium personal defense and I agree with you on the Hydro Shock projectile. I would use your winning brand and will when I get my hands on some. Great video.
Been using gold dots for years and yes even in my 380 ankle holster pistol. Great video brother, thanks
Just got a Sig p238 extreme for warm weather carry. I had initially loaded it with Hornady Critical Defense. I am, as I write this, unloading my mags to reload with Speer Gold Dot (the only other non-FMJ I've got in my can at the moment) based on these videos. Good work.
I'm your newest subscriber! I watched all your 380 penetration vids, and I really appreciate the time and effort you put into them. The results really didn't surprise me. The XTP and the Federals have always done well in other tests. I've owned some 380s in the past but don't have one at the moment. I've never considered them inadequate with the right ammo. Even a 380 with FMJs is better than no gun and no ammo. I'd bet my life on one with the XTPs. Please keep the good vids coming!
Glad you liked it. I wouldn't recommend a .380 as a primary weapon if the person could handle something more powerful, but for those times when a .380 is the only weapon you have on you, it's nice to know that there are some ammo types that (with exquisite and meticulous shot placement) can do their part to stop an attacker.
I like to see how they perform in longer barrel like the ppk or bersa thunder both have longer barrel then the one you are using for the test.
I carry the Gold Dot 90gr in my Walther PP with a 3.9" barrel. Good penetration...unsurpassed expansion!
Another website looked at muzzle velocity for different size bullets, from different length barrels. The tested ammo was not a broad selection, but what was important was, from subcompact length guns, the expected faster velocity of 9mm was negligible. That is more than half the equation for both likelihood of adequate expansion, as well as the energy available to transfer to the wound. a 2.5" barrel .380 propels the bullet at close to that of a short 9mm. Fuller expansion, faster velocity, even if a lighter bullet, equates with more overall damage. Science and physics get really important in this arena, for sure, but the summary was a larger caliber was only substantially better shot from a long barrel.
How do the XTP bullets perform from a 3.5" barrel - a Bersa Thunder .380 for example? I'm guessing the Hornady Custom would be the ticket there with great expansion and the extra velocity from the longer barrel to get more penetration?
SuckSqueeze BangBlow get the hydra shoks, I've tested many rounds against them and they always win. This video pretty much confirmed that..
Oh and yes I've always used the bersa thunder..
Excellent Video! Probably THE definitive video for answering the .380 ammo question. Thanks for posting it. Been using the XTP's in both (my wife and mine's) .380's for a couple years now. Glad that I wasn't the only one to come to that conclusion.
Hi CC Sir, glad you liked it!
Good morning. It's been a while since I've seen a video from you, and I've enjoyed your presentations. I have a question - have you tested Federal HST's or Winchester Defend ammo, and if so, how did they fare? Thanks a lot!
That is all I use in all my firearms they penetrate very well and they open up very nicely. Now I don't know if you can even buy them very sparse. Probably very expensive.
Both are excellent loads in .380 acp.
Everything I wanted to know in about 11 min and saved some money buying the wrong ammo. Thanks!
I love that the winner is a component we can buy! I now have to go to your other videos to find what the optimum velocity was.
nice video thanks for spending the money and I don't have to.
Thank you for this ammo quest. I have been researching what choice to make for my first gun for a long time. These videos have been very helpful to me as I picked out my first gun and ammunition to go with it. I just got a Kahr P380 and a box of Precision One hollow points. I shot 25 rounds in it, and it functioned really well. Thank you again.
CookwithSarah Glad you've found something that works for you. That Kahr is a tiny little pistol, and very nice. Practice often and stay safe!
Thank you for this project sir.
STB-You are the guru of ammo testing! Tnoutdoors9 has retired and I haven't seen any of your videos for some time. I hope that you are well!
Yeah, although 9's are mu preferred carry pistols, my family recently bite the bullet and added a Sig 238 and Ruger lcp11 to our arsenal.
I really appreciate your testing since with the .380's I had no clue!! Please let your subscribers know what is going on-😜. We miss you.....
I'm now at something of an impasse.
Being rather impressed by these results I cannot go one step further, in good conscious, without asking your opinion on the Sig Sauer V-Crown for the Micro .380 and even more importantly, the Ruger/Polycase ARX offering at 56gr & 1400fps.
As so many other individuals who carry for not only Self Defense but also for the defense of my Wife and Grandson, you know that the cost of any particular ammunition isn't a factor in my decision making process but only performance. If one were to create the "Magic Bullet" that we're all looking for, I wouldn't care if they were $100 per cartridge so cost isn't and never should be a factor when choosing the load that saves lives.
Please Sir,
As you've time to reply at your earliest convenience, I'd be greatly appreciative and much more relaxed with my chosen cartridge (Ruger ARX) if it should have your blessing. Otherwise I'll be looking to order the Precision One JHP cartridges.
Thank you for your time and effort in educating everyone who have not only enjoyed but have sought out your videos in order to be properly prepared.
Sincerely and Respectfully Yours,
...~ Benny
Dr of what, Ben? Bloviating & Elitism? I've got your $100 per round shells right here! No problem, I'm sure. Don't "go one step further" without these...lol.
Thank you for your excellent work on this project. I feel more confident now carrying my .380 Bodyguard with Hydra Shoks.
Make sure they feed okay in your weapon. My LCP jams every time on Hydrashoks.
Man i loved all your videos, its shame they dont get a hell of a lot more views
This video definitely helps. I live in lousy CT & ALL ammo is tough. Our largest gun store only carries 1 type of .380 range ammo & 2 brands of self defense ammo & both all suck. I had to go to Cab's where they had a larger selection. I can't get precision one here. YT kept crashing on me before the end of this vid so I didn't see the Fiocchi so I ended up with the Hornady .90 gr XTP.
Very well done analysis of the different .380 ammo. I’m trying my best not to be disappointed that you threw my Hornady Critical Defense ammo immediately in the garbage in the first round. Well when you made this video, I guess ammunition of every class was readily available. It’s not in 2022. So, for defense rounds, I barely got ahold of the Hornady Critical Defense ammo. The ammo shelves were bare for months, even target ammo is in short supply. I’m not complaining, it is what it is.
There is such a thing as over-analyzing things and I’m guilty of that as well.
My Ruger LCP2, no matter what ammo is in it, will fuck you up. My slingshot will too. So will a well-placed rock. A rolled up magazine can be lethal when used proficiently. Carrying a gun is almost like cheating but hey, so are THEY.
I’m a blackbelt in Tae Kwon Do and know a lot about “self-defense”. Spinning heal kicks are flashy and pretty to see happen in a split second, but not something you’d do in a street fight. You see a situation and prepare for it, long before there is a situation. That’s a little exhausting. I look over my shoulder just occasionally. I look people in the eyes and know their intent. Usually it’s nothing. It’s so much easier to just play nice. Smile. Know your place and confidentially rule it with a smile and walk away clean. Now, I live in a very rough neighborhood and hear gunshots constantly through the night. (Druggies shooting each other again) Where am I? Just home after a long day of work on the tugboats.
I’m not involved in their game, I have a life to live. Nobody messes with me because I have a certain way about me. I don’t look like a victim, but I’m not a NFL linebacker either. Being mysterious is everything on the street. I see people smoking crack and meth and heroine on my bus stop every morning. The cops are right across the street, sometimes doing the same damn thing. I just shake my head and smile. Nothing is exactly what it appears to be and I’m ready for anything. All that anyone knows is that they know nothing about me. I keep it that way on purpose. It’s not my way to be cold, I’m very cool though. Being mysterious invites questions from those you’ll not provide an answer. (Not an honest one anyway)
Sure, I get approached by gang-bangers and crack-dealers who want to bum a cigarette. I give them one sometimes. Sometimes, I’m not in the mood and shine them on. Fuck off, beat it. And they do. It’s about body-language. Facial expressions. A look.
They’re not looking at the gun in my pocket, they’re wondering why I’m not one of them. I keep them wondering. They’re not going to attack me because they just don’t know what hell I could put on them if they tried. I hope to never have to shoot anyone and hope my act is convincing enough that I’ll never have to hurt anyone. So far so good.
Here’s the thing. In this neighborhood where I happen to live right now, I have to be this way. It’s survival. Not of the “fittest”, but of the smartest.
And I don’t like it, it’s not who I am inside, it’s just necessary for the moment. I’m a ghost sort of. I keep people guessing.
I grew up in Chicago and carried a gun since I was 12 years old. But, I spent most of my adult life in Hawaii and sailed around the world with my father. I’m in paradise, a semi-professional surfer, surfing contests, loving my life. Girls galore. But that was then, this is now.
I’m 58 years old, living in the roughest part of Seattle and still really sharp as far as knowing human nature. It’s a mess, to put it bluntly.
I actually love this place, nevermind the dead bodies in the alleys, the sea beckons me and I go fishing. I’m a fisherman through and through. I’m an animal lover. I’m a marine biologist from Hawaii. I’m a writer like my father was. I miss him terribly.
So let’s get back on subject. You have a gun on you (just in case). Never think that makes you powerful all of a sudden, realize and know what threats are eminent and others are benign. You can, with some social skills, dispel most threats with kind words and understanding.
Sure, some situations will get out of hand in a split second and you’re confused but don’t let that happen if you can avoid a situation where that CAN happen. I’m not saying, hide in your house, go out, have fun! Go to parties and bars, stagger home and wake up to a girl whose name you don’t really know. Real problems are sometimes random, and you’re going for your gun. Bad idea. Always. I’m currently carrying the Normady Critical Defense ammo. Yeah, it won’t expand as advertised and I hope it won’t penetrate beyond my target and injure a bystander. I’m not going to overthink this because I won’t let it happen in the first place. You can test different rounds in ballistic gel all you want. Most people who do this, will never be in a situation where their gun is critically involved anyway. (This is a test, only a test.) And the test is valid enough, but if I saw this guy on the street, and he’s scared?, that’s the REAL test. Test failed. You’re a victim only when you make yourself one. Having a gun on your hip isn’t the answer to most situations, in fact, it can doom you. Sure, you can fantasize about shooting your attacker with the perfect ammo, but once you do, you’re fucked. You might run home waiting for the cops to show up, and they will, in most cases. Then you’re screwed. No matter what. You can claim “self-defense” with your attorney all you want. You’re going to jail because you killed someone either way.
So, try not to do that. Be kind, courteous, friendly, know a threat and the difference from an eminent threat and just use words that make sense.
You’d be surprised how many times I almost got killed and just turned the table around without even lifting a glove. I’m not afraid of pretending to be “passive” This guy could easily kill me in a fistfight. My gun isn’t necessary, my brain is. You talk things out. Things usually work out if you do the things just bordering on an all-out fight. You can even “befriend” an attacker if you just stand your ground. No guns involved, just an understanding that we both are lethal to the other. Who wants to die tonight? Nobody.
I’m a natural with people but so many others aren’t. I can de-escalate a situation very quickly. Others can not. I’ve been in biker bars playing my guitar and this guy in the audience just hates me and I see it. It’s jealousy, envy, insecurity, all wrapped into this bullshit. I’m happy playing my music, but one guy is just wrong, drunk, evil, whatever. That’s the guy I approach first. Nevermind all my adoring fans, I’m going to talk to the guy with hate on his face. “Can I buy you a beer?” His hate immediately vanishes. We’re friends now, talking about our childhood, having a beer.
It’s complicated sometimes and I love that it is.
The better part of people lays just beneath the surface and I see it clearly.
Situations are fluid in nature. It’s up to you how you deal with that. A smile and a hug goes a long way my friends.
Carry a gun just in case you’re not able to create the situation the way you expected. Nothing is concrete in this world built from concrete.
You’ll find though, that each and every one of us is basically the same. We want happiness above all else. Achieving that is a challenge.
A challenge worth taking on.
Sorry for the long story, I’m just a nobody in this huge world full of wonderful people.
Peace and aloha to each and every one of you.
thanks for the info
If you're going to run Hydra Shoks, make sure they actually function in your pistol. That round hangs up my LCP every time.
What a great job you did. My new Taurus Spectrum will be spitting Fiocchi ammo out. Thank you!
For many civilian uses, the FBI standards for penetration may well be too much. When your shots deviate from a from frontal shot, the harder it is justify your action. I could be comfortable with 10 to 12 inches.
.net
We need you to test Federal 380 Punch and 380 HydraShok DEEP - new ammo offerings in 2020.
Thanks for all the research you put into this vid. I always carry the Gold Dot 90gr. Plenty of penetration and unsurpassed expansion! However...my 380 carry is a Walther PP with a 3.9" barrel. I might reconsider with one of those short barreled mouse guns! Thanks again.
I was excited about precision one and bought 3 boxes of the XTP. Loaded my bodyguard. First 6 shots, 2 FTFire, not a failure rate you want in a defense round. My 3 boxes of defense rounds are now regulated to practice rounds. Will be returning to Rem HTP for my defense round.
Yes, that type of thing can happen with any ammo, and it's why I always advise that you have to run it through your particular gun to make sure it functions.
I had a similar experience with 9mm, a certain brand gave me four FTFire out of six rounds tried. I was hopping mad. Pulled it out, tried another ammo, it worked great. Reloaded those failed rounds into a different gun, and they all fired perfectly.
Guns are finicky. You have to feed them what they like. It's unfortunate; I wish everything just worked, but we're not quite there yet.
Haha! I was hopping mad as well as I thought I had bought the perfect round.
I don't get why you say 10 inches is not good enough, but 12 is...do you realize how deep into a person 10 inches or even 8 is?? Lets say it needs 2 inches to get past clothing...a bullet going into a body 6 inches is massive damage. This would be the same as having a steak knife shoved in past the handle...I TOTALLY am ok with 12 being your personal standard, but you shouldn't be telling people that 10 inches wont cut it. I carry Hornady Critical Defense and in my testing...I am very comfortable with it...HPR fed HORRIBLY in my gun (Glock 42)...which is sad, because I LOVE HPR
Penetration distance through a body, and through gel, are not the same thing. A body is not made of ballistic gel. The correlation is that people who have spent their entire careers pulling bullets out of bodies, then correlated them against gel, and found that a bullet that goes through 12" of gel would have enough power to go through a body from all angles and be able to reach and destroy the vital organs. It's utterly entirely different from something like a steak knife. Consider that a BB from a BB gun will penetrate 3.5" of ballistic gel, but it likely won't even break your skin on an actual body. They're not the same.
That said, the #1 most important factor is reliability; if a great-performing bullet won't feed in your gun, that would be a bad choice for you and your gun, and I would choose a lesser-performing bullet that's more reliable, over a better-performing bullet that's less reliable.
ShootingTheBull410 I hear what you't...but a shot to the head, or the heart...or the lung...none require 12 inches I see what you're saying though, ty for the response!!
Shelliiaa Ellison Not to mention if you are shooting someone that has a firearm pointed at you the fact is that you have to penetrate not only the chest cavity, but more than likely the arm bones and muscle to get there.
Shelliiaa Ellison He is also testing to the standards set by the FBI. They're the one that set the 12" minimum in ballistics gel. It's not a personal opinion.
Shelliiaa Ellison first the FBI are not the end all be all, I am an avid hunter and can tell you that a round that deposits all of its energy into what you are shooting at will always do more damage and give more trama then a bullet that travels thru your target, so if you are shooting at a human front to front, you will be looking at a normal with of 8in so if you can find a round that will dump all of its energy into 8 to 10in of mass then in my eyes that would be far better then one that used 12in or more to dump its energy, and as for the person saying that ballistic gel is not like a human body well all I can say is what are they smoking, its ballistic gel, its made to be exactly like a human body, shelliiaa if you find a round that expands well and will go 8 to 10in and cycles well thru your weapon then I think you will have a winner, I myself carry fed hydro shocks when I carry my kel tec 380 and in most tests they only penetrate around 10.5in on avg
I love this format of video. Great job. Would love a similar version with +p as an option. I’m currently running underwood 90g +p hollow points and would love to see how they stack up against others in a fair side by side comparison.
Quite possibly the best ammo review and comparison ever done. Thank you for sharing this with us, and thank you for not selling out to the big name producers!
A 380acp is the exact same diameter as 9mm. Both make the same "tiny hole" entrance.
Yep, and both are inadequate.
What source are you citing for your opinion of "both are inadequate"?
I'll bet you 1 million bucks that if someone had a 380 pointed at you, you'd run like a little wussy. You're the one that is inadequate. the 380 has killed many bad guys with a single shot, and you'd be no match for it either.
JustMe, I don't know about you, but I'd be smart enough to 'run like a wuss' if any gun was pointed at me! 22's have also killed many people. Are you saying that you wouldn't run if any gun was pointed at you? See, that's the difference, the next day, we'd both be alive, & you would not be!!
Edward, I would run too... Why don't you read my comment AND the one I was responding to, instead of flying off the handle and making yourself look like an ass. You might learn something.
I just bought a Bodyguard and ran a box of the Precision One XTP through it
and it ran flawlessly and was pretty accurate and very clean burning. I ordered more of it yesterday.
Just bought a 380 and really appreciate the testing. You did a very thorough job in conducting this test and I found it very helpful. Best of luck with your 9mm testing.... subscribed!
I love this guy. I think I've watched this 380 series 3 times.
I just ran through some more target ammo so now it's way beyond its break in of 200 rounds. I will be running My Leigh XP sometime next week. one note is that my feeding problems were a combo of break in period and reload ammo from Freedom Munitions. Plus Kahr wants you to load their guns with the slide locked back and then insert the magazine. For some reason this really works better than inserting the mag first and then racking the slide. Good shooting 😀
Excellent, great to hear. I was seriously considering switching to FMJ in my P3AT backup due to the conjecture you spoke of. Now I know to keep the hydra shocks I've been carrying for over a decade.
Glade to see the views increasing, you did a fantastic job. I will be looking forward to your next series of test. Hope you had a good Thanksgiving. I know you disappointed a lot of Critical Defense users, I never was sold on the plug idea (it seams to work in the Critical Duty loads) It is amazing what marking will do for a product or a fancy box.
I thought you were just talking results. Then you mention your results page.... :D Wow, you rock! And thank you. I am so with you about how you need repeated testing of each. Fantastic job! Subbed.
Very nice review. I like all the extensive testing and the attention to detail. I also like that you not only test name brands but also the off brands. I was surprised with your findings on some of the rounds. I'm going to have to take a look at the precision one bullets and see what they have to offer. You did answer my question on whether I should carry the gold dots or hydra shock. My testing could only be done on paper and also watermelons. Both do good at giving me a picture but the gel tests tell the whole story. Thanks for the review.
Thanks so much for this useful info. Having just bought a Kahr .380 I test fired many of these rounds at the range but aside from accuracy and reliability in my pistol I had no idea which would be a better round.
I will say that of all the rounds that I tested the Precison One is the only one that I had fail to fire. When I examined the bullets there was no dent at all on the primer. The ones that did fire had the typical deep dents on the primers. I have 4 boxes so I'm going to fire more rounds to see if it happens again. this happened on 3 out of 25 rounds. I fired over 500 rounds of other ammunition and had a few failures to feed but no misfires.
Again thanks for the testing. I'm with you that a 9mm is much better but there are times (jogging for example) when a small, light pistol is better than nothing which is what would happen when a 9 is just too big or heavy.
Thanks,
Jeff
Hi Jeff,
Your experience is why I always tell people -- the best ammo is the one that WORKS in YOUR gun. So yeah, little pocket pistols can be finicky; that's why I wanted to reveal several good choices, so you can pick the one that works best.
That little Kahr is sweet. Be sure to check out PocketGunsandGear's channel, he's done a lot of testing from that shorter-barrel Kahr.
Thanks for the reply. The main thing I got from the tests is that the Hornady XTP bullet seems to be the best performing round in .380
Thanks,
Jeff
The XTP's loaded by the various companies are all using the same bullet. The correct thing to do here is take ALL the XTP's tested and then average out their performance. If you want JHP in a .380, XTP is obviously the clear winner.
You've sold me on the Precision One XTPs. Thanks for all your posts!
Maximum charge of Hodgdon CFE 4.2grns. behind the Hornady Critical defense 90grn. gave the maximum in my tests. This might have been a powder difference in some of your manufacturers tests. Great bullet by Hornady!
Love the scientific approach! Especially taking consistency, variation, and averages into account.
I want to thank you for providing this information. It allows me to make an informed choice. My everyday carry is a Walther PPK/S. Again, Thanks !
Very useful information.Thank You. I am a older guy with increasing arthritic changes taking place in my hands. This is making it increasingly difficult to operate the slide on many handguns. I have found the M&P Shield 380 ez to be a pleasant handgun to work with. So I want to find the best ammo to use for self defense in a daily carry firearm. So it seems the FEDERAL Hydra-Shok 380, FIOCCHI 380 Extrema, or the PRECISION ONE 380 are the best choices for penetration and reliable expansion. Just need to fire some rounds of each to see if any feeding problems exist.
The EZ barrel is almost an inch longer. These tests are not relevant. The rounds that met the standard will do even better and rounds like Hornady Critical Defense will penetrate penetrate 12".
There's been alot of new bullets that have come out WE NEED YOU AGAIN BROTHER YOU COULD SAVE A LIFE RE DOING THIS WITH NEW AMMO PLEASE PLEASE COME BACK.
Great I just bought the Hornady Critical Defense for my TCP. Oh well. Great video!
I just picked up a Ruger LCP II and purchased some of the (later reviewed) Sig Sauer V-crown 90 gr JHP on the advice of the guy working at the counter. I'll end up using them until I burn them out at the range. Then I'll aim for some of the other brands reviewed here. Great comparison but I wish you did more than (what appeared to be) 5 shots. Thanks for the video, even so! :)
Great job! watched the entire 380 series and currently following your 9mm series.
I really like the amount of effort that was put into this, and the amount of testing that was done to come to these conclusions. However, there is more to the equation than simply terminal ballistics. I choose FMJs in my LCP because they feed better. I'd much rather have an FMJ that feeds smooth than a XTP that doesn't.
iTheGeek
Isn't something like 30% of rounds that are shot in self defense hit the target? Every miss is the same as an overpenetrating round.
Like he said ... When shooting it from a Pea shooter 2.5 inch barrel is not a Test scenario ... Love the Video ... Dont miss understand me . Keep up the great info .
Hello from Dallas Texas .
These videos are awesome. Thank you for your time.
Awesome review Sir, glad to know my recent purchase of Federal Hydra Shok made it to the finals. I will definitely be looking into the Precision 380 round for my next purchase. Good job guys/gals...
finally a decent .380 ammo review. i usually am not comfortable carrying .380 but this might change my mind
I see a lot of reference to the overpenetration issue - mostly misunderstanding. It usually goes like: "you don't want your bullet to fly through an assailant and kill an innocent person behind him, in the next apartment, through a nursery wall, etc. Some of the reasons that is a misunderstanding of the issue are:
a) Misses. Most bullets (in a firefight) never hit their targets - even in police shootings, only about 1 out of 3 does (there are wide-ranging statistics around this average), so what about the other 2 that went wide of the target? Do they just stop in mid-air? No, they go through that wall or bystander quite nicely.
b) Energy. The reason you don't want overpenetration is that all energy from the bullet is best expended in the assailant - not in the wall behind him (or her). There's a certain amount of energy remaining in the bullet's motion when it first contacts the target; you want ALL of that energy delivered to the target - ideally, tumbling, expanding, splitting apart for multiple wound tracks, or some of the above. Of course, you don't want too much of that energy dissipated in shredding the bullet or bending metal jackets - you want it expended against the target, breaking bones, making large wound cavities, penetrating to vitals, etc.
c) Wound channel. A bullet that goes clean through a target most likely does so because it has not expanded, tumbled, etc. - it has just poked a caliber tunnel through the target and come out the other side. That's less injurious than a gaping mine shaft that causes the rapid drop in blood pressure that ends the fight. And ending the fight is exactly the purpose of a defensive weapon.
So overpenetration is undesirable because energy ends up in the wrong place, instead of disrupting the functioning of an assailant's body and discontinuing an attack.
Great series of tests. Since I only carry the 738 during really hot weather when clothing is minimal, looks like there are many good choices.
I didn't see the rest of the series but, it was a pretty good presentation for an overview. Thanks for your work here. I do not care for the juvenile hypercritical sarcasm of some people who are never satisfied with anything, always making fun of everything. I would make a suggestion however that, if there is a test of ammo, an ammo quest, as it were, that, while it might be worthwhile to point out the pros and cons for particulars, like short barrel micro pistols, a better approach might be to include tests for all common .380 barrel lengths. I have two .380s, both with longer barrels because they're longer but still good for CC. One is a Browning 1911 with a 4.25" barrel and a CZ83 with a 3.8" barrel. What am I to make of this research on 2" barrels. Was this research as much about the ammo or 2" barrels? I know you can't cover all of the variables but, just a thought.
{09-20-19 update} The Taurus tcp 738-Ruger LCP-Kel-tec P3at ,are Sat-Night Specials!! The Sig/Beretta/Walter&Bersa are Hand Guns. While I do agree with the narrator choice of ammo. I myself used 3 Federal Shockwave JHP to lead off, than backed up with Fiocchi round nose. The key is to go to a range & practice, there with a target you can see if hitting what your hit what you're aiming at. One of the best in 380 acp to train on is the M&P 380 Shield EZ, EZ to load, to rack, low recoil. I apologize for War & Peace: I love the Bersa Thunder 380 Plus 15+1 I carry everyday. I do have a 9mm & 45 acp as well.
Well this was an excellent comprehensive.380 ammo test, *_NINE YEARS AGO_*
Now with Underwood XD the only word which comes to mind is, Obsolete.
This info is still useful in comparing for 2nd place, 3rd place, etc, but the truly barrier-blind Underwood Xtreme Defender is without question, #1.
Now you might disagree,
*_But you'd be wrong_*
Educational on issues I had scant knowledge (penetration and width). Thank you. And, of course, the review of various types of ammunition. I have a Walther PPK and will buy Federal Hydroshock or Fiochi.
These were the best ammo videos.
I love Precision One! Been using only these since your shootout! Great HP design, they make them in 9 mm also!
Great choice! I use the underwood XTP myself because they seem to be a little warmer than the precision ones
I sent you a dozen Winchester 380 silver tip ammo to gel and demin test. Also sent a check to cover your expenses. The test I did with the silvertips showed they expand every time, the best of any type of ammo I tested but I'm not sure how they penetrate in gel blocks. My local gun shop had 3 boxes of fiocchi 380 xtp ammo, I bought all 3 boxes. looks like they use high quality starline brass and hornady xtp bullets. I'll try them and the silvertips in my glock 42 when it comes in.
Thanks for the donation! Much appreciated.
I tested Precision One XTPs in the Glock 42 and they did quite well, I would predict that those Fiocchis are going to be excellent performers from that pistol.
PS... thanks for presenting this in a no BS...non long-winded fashion... MUCH APPRECIATED!