@@taasch2505 He came away from a motorcycle crash with a back injury that causes chronic pain and retired from his other online activities two years ago to focus on more important things in life. Putting family first and stepping away from the hustle and bustle online after a bad accident is never a bad thing and I wish him well.
Sorry that this was your last video. Thank you for all of the research that you brought us and I hope that everything went as well as possible for you after this video.
@@sigspearthumb1056 he was alluding to the fact that he may have some health issues. In other words he wasn't coming right out and saying I've got health issues.
@@lesnjeffsc I mean it did pretty well, I have a couple boxes of it myself, but it definitely wouldn't be my first choice. I wouldn't even put it in my top 10, especially considering that it costs about the same as HSTs these days. He probably bought a bunch back when Walmart sold handgun ammo and just never rotated out his old carry ammo.
As one of the few people on youtube who realize that most people conceal carry small handguns, your analysis of different ammo and how they perform in a 3" barrel gun is indispensable to us. I am a bit surprised you don't have more subs, so I'll be a +1
Id like to see you come back and test the different winner circle ammo out of different barrel lengths. At least 4" & 4.5" barrels. This series was fantastic. Would be cool to see the non expanding defensive rounds thrown in the mix and measure wound cavities. Underwood extreme defender, black hills honey badger ect.
Oh yes I agree. My Sig P320 compact (3.9" barrel) loves the HST's in 147gr standard pressure, which I carry, and I believe it performs better than all the other HST's imo. I bought 8 boxes of 50 per box online for almost the same price of a box of 20..I was able to see the performance, reliability, and consistency at a way lower cost than buying them in the 20 round boxes! I recently looked for them and I can't find them anymore for civilians. It says on each box that the boxes of 50 are for law enforcement only and the site I bought from now asks for proof. I say BS! We should get the same buying opportunity as anyone else! Glad I bought them when I did...
@@OldSolidSnake Try online at SGAmmo and TargetSportsUSA. That's where I get all my ammo and I bought some HSTs about a month ago, 50-rd boxes for $30. Shipping isn't bad if you order several boxes at a time; if you buy a case it's free at TS. They still sell them to everyone, not just LEO.
@@OldSolidSnake Glad to pass on the info. SGA and TS used to sell them for $20/box of 50, but last fall they went up to $30. Still much, much cheaper than buying the little 20-rd boxes locally. I hope they don't stop selling to non-LEO; I know many online sellers now require LE credentials. Guess I need to order a few more just in case.
Most detail oriented and thorough analysis. I love it when the modern TH-camrs discount his information. Even though they are shooting the same bullets. The modern breed of TH-camrs somehow believe their results are more relevant than his. (Probably because they did the test) The more recent youtubers draw their conclusions from non -standard gel blocks, with a "close enough" attitude toward the details such as temperature, bullets shot per type, shooting 2-5 rounds into a gel block and drawing conclusions. I will take this guys info. .....Over any "TOOL shooting at TARGETS"
Glad you finished the test. I know you've had some health issues, but it appears that you have fallen away like TNOUTDOORS9. It's a shame, as both of you did excellent, informative videos. You both been missed, and there hasn't been any worthy successors that I'm aware of. If anyone knows of one, please advise.
Are you familiar with Lucky Gunner's ballistic gel testing? They use Clear Ballistics in theirs, so I suppose their results come with the same limitations that ShootingTheBull410 disclaims about his old tests. But I think one could at least say the tests have internal consistency, regardless of how they would compare to calibrated gelatin. I have very little academic or practical education in ballistic science so I'm not really qualified to speak on all that. www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/
Im with you 100%, TNOD9 & This channel are the best and have both disappeared unfortunately. I understand for now about ammo availability/price but even before the insanity they'd both not made anything in some time as far as i know.
Wow... almost another year and nothing from STB410. My thoughts are with you and thanks for all of the ballistic knowledge you given us. I hope you and your family are doing well.
Oh, and while am at it, posting messages, etc,... I will NOT be changing my carry ammo from Federal HST to the new Winchester ammo even given your evidence. Here is why. 1. Most police forces, federal agents, etc, etc, etc...today, use either HST's or Speer Gold Dots. 2. If a court trial were ever to happen, knowing that you use the exact same ammo that law enforcement uses is a big +! 3. I really like the flower HST's make... (LOL) Again, my best wishes to you and yours.
Your tests were all top notch, I appreciate all the time and effort that went into this series and so glad to see you back on TH-cam. Your videos influenced my ammo buying decisions for all my pistols, Thank you so much and God Bless
This has been a long series and the care and thoughtfulness of your testing is commended. Like a huge number of others, I carry a short-barreled 9mm and your testing is very relevant to that situation. Some of the results were surprising, both good and bad, which is great! Knowledge is power.I reload my own self-defense rounds and the velocity information and detailed expansion analyses have given me good baseline information for developing my recipes.Much appreciated!!! Thanks!!!
Thanks for putting all that work into this! I’d love to see a series from a 4” barrel like a Glock 19 or SIG P320C but I think this information gives me a good baseline. Thank you, sir!
Like others, I’d like to see the 147 HST redone in real gel as well as the 124+P Gold Dot. They both originally appeared to do better than either of what you tested in this video. Regardless, it would be A+ if you did a 10mm series. Now that Gold Dot, HST, Winchester Defend and Critical Duty are all available in 10mm it would make for a short and simple but very popular ammoquest.
The 147s are heavier, but lack the velocity to reliably expand. As a result, they tend to over penetrate. Note that the tests were standardized over four metrics; penetration and expansion in bare gel, and penetration and expansion with demin. They do not take into account one-stop shots, failures to stop or lethality.
@@ItsEverythingElse The HST has since been neutered in it's newer rendition and I wouldn't personally trust it out of a 3" barrel. It's got less expansion (maybe a harder core?) and more penetration which is a great trade off IMO, but the new 147 won't reach 1000fps out of a 4" barrel and out of 3" barrels it's basically a lightweight, smaller diameter 45 acp. The 124 hst is the standard for all 3" barreled guns.
Absolutely one of the best and most extensive defense ammo tests that I've seen. I choose the HST for performance and record in actual shootings. I also still have an axe to grind with Winchester over their insistence that civilian lives aren't worth as much as police with regard to their ridiculous restriction of Ranger ammo to law enforcement only.
Federal does the same thing, their HST 124+P, 147, and (now-discontinued) 147+P are only sold to law enforcement. We have been fortunate to find dealers who will bend the rules and sell to civilians anyway, but Federal is clamping down on that. As for the record in actual shootings -- HST has been an outstanding performer for law enforcement agencies, I have never heard of any agency complain about it. But then again, they're generally using 4.6" barrel G17s or 4"-barrel Springfield XDs or some other full-size weapon. But I am unaware of there being any record of its performance in 3" pistols in actual shootings? That's why I went through the process to test -- because there was no reliable data (that I know of) regarding performance in short-barrel pistols.
We appreciate all the time and effort you put into these tests. It helps a lot of us select the best self defense rounds. I personally went with the 147 HST (standard)
As an HST fan boy I'm going to point out that the showdown is very slightly rigged. 124 vs 147 is like a 185 lb and a 220 lb boxer both squaring off. A match that doesn't respect weight classes is going to have definite bias towards the heavier hitter. Still, Winchester did their research and I have to give them serious respect for making it available commercially much earlier than Federal released their commercial 147 HST. Congratulations on finishing the ammo quest.
He already tested both the standard pressure and +P versions of the HST 147gr. It didn't perform as well which is why it didn't make it into this video. Nothing biased or rigged about it.
@shootingthebull410 Hope you're doing well... Many of thanks for all of your comprehensive ammo test over the years. Hope to see you again soon! God Bless
Comparing the ballistic numbers in this recent organic gel test to the old Federal HST 147gr data, I would say the Federal HST 147gr is the true winner. It's neck and neck with the Wincester in terms of penetration, but it's doing it with that awesome HST expansion. The Winchester sure looks good, but I am sticking with the 147gr HST.
Thank you for getting this wrapped up! It’s amazing who just half an inch of barrel length effects the results. From 4”-4.5” service size to Lucky Gunner’s 3.5” M&P Compact showed allot. And now your more realistic barrel length of 3” REALLY opened my eyes.
HST all the way and it's not even close. Winchester ammo has been the most unreliable, inconsistent, poor QC crap for me for years. More ammo failures from Winchester ammo than all others combined. Even if I could find well priced 50 round boxes of Win the way I can HST....nope. HST or Gold Dot. Hell I'll go all the way back to 9BPLE before I carry Win
Well done sir! I can't thank you enough for ALL your hard work, effort and time that was involved in this and all your other tests for our benefit. I hope I speak for everyone who has watched any of your videos when I say we appreciate your honesty in conducting this test to see which was best. I have to say on your "winner" I'm a bit biased towards Federal HST's (hydra-shok) since I have religiously used these for years. Thank you again and I can't wait for your next series (I hope).
Terrific review! Among the multitude gel test videos on the net .... to me, this one stands out by providing great depth explaining expected real=life outcomes. Keep up the great work. Thank you!
Imagine how dumb these comments will look when it's no longer "cool" to say this? Lol. As if it matters how quickly you click on a video that will be posted for years/decades.
Would have loved some cutaway shots of the wound channel. The HST likely had a more devastating wound channel, which is gonna equal to more stopping power then just penetration depth alone. I carry 124GR HST standard pressure and I have since 2019, this video back then helped me to make that decision l, and I've stuck with them ever since. No second thoughts no regrets. Also Federal now has a train and deffend option for HST as well.
I carried HST 124 grain for years. It always worked until I got a new carry gun & now it jams. Winchester discontinued the Defend round so I'm using Critical Defense for now. No jams.
Ive been carrying the defend rounds since the initial testing. I waa sold then, im sold still. Yes HSTs are great rounds but i want that extra penetration without over penetration. Great series, so happy you and your wife are doung well. God bless.
Good hollow points...But bullet technology has improved in your absence and the Underwood Extreme Defender should have been in the mix, and may have been the overall winner...Keep those vids uploading!...Glad your back!!!...
Exotic boutique ammo should never be carried. There's 0 street cred for those projectiles. Extreme defender, Liberty Defense, ARX, Glaser, RIP, Extreme Shock, etc are all garbage that looks good in advertisment.
@@mannys9130 I do not know about the other rounds you mentioned... I have blown through a case of Extreme Defender with no malfunctions in a Glock 19...I call that "Street Cred'...Plus they make a hole larger than hollow points and the barrier penetration is second to none...I will bet my 60 years of living and 49 years of experience with guns on the fact they will allow me to prevail in a gunfight...Copper bullets are the future...Don't be such a 'Fudd'...Lol...
Love the Ammo Quest series as it provides objective information. That being said, Winchester Defense has dethroned HST...barely. But HST remains a "stellar" performer which is why I'm still and HST fan boy.
I dont think I've ever even seen the Winchester Defense online and definitely not in person. Even the HST are very rare in store and online, but it is out there. I was able to get a bunch of it in various grains in 9mm and the standard version in .45 acp.
Check out BoneFrog gun club for HST ammo. 180gr & 165gr HST usually $35 for box of 50. 124gr, 124gr +P, 147gr HST $37.50 for 50rds. I purchased them at this price during the height of the pandemic and the sme price just a couple of weeks ago.
It has to penetrate deep enough for the expanded bullet to do damage without over penetrating. Federal makes the 147 HST and 147 FMJ with the same velocity. That’s my go to ammo.
I went back and reviewed the Federal HST 147 grain standard pressure review, and I think that should have gotten the trophy.. That review showed the 147 grain HST bullets performed better than the Winchester Defends.
Well the new HSTs don't perform like that, they expand about 20% less and penetrate a few inches more. Still great performance don't get me wrong, I still carry the new HSTs with no issues, but the penetration and expansion figures pretty much match the Winchester train and defend except they look prettier.
I think the HST 147 did the best personally. But I really like the idea of train and defend which also did great. Wish there were more of these in other calibers
"Consistency" is one of the things that sets your channel apart. So many just do one round, which I assumed was fine, till I saw your channel years ago and noticed some loads going all over the place from great to poor in a few rounds.
Have you thought about testing any of the Lehigh or Underwood Xtreme Defender or Xtreme Penetrator 9mm loads? I'm wondering if doing so would yield an upset as happened in the .380 ACP Ammo Quest with the Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator rounds?
But wasn't the final decision that the Penetrators look better in gel than they do in real life? I think the last final conclusion for the .380 was still for the XTP's and HydraShoks.
The Penetrators were so good in .380 because it's hard to engineer .380s that penetrate enough. 9mm Penetrators over-penetrate. I think Military Arms Channel did gel tests with 9mm Penetrators which showed their overpenetration.
I carry the Winchester Defend because of your original review. A huge plus that totally sold me on the round was the very affordable, ballistic matched Train rounds. When I practice, I get the most accuracy from this product vs any other round I shoot. Thanks for all the work you've done to test out all these products.
Agreed! The lighter 124 gr. HST is more effected by energy loss in gel than the heavier 147 gr. Winchester. I carry HST because of his earlier tests. It's going to take some doing to get me to change.
@Uganda Knuckles the 147 had better penetration than the 124 when he retested it. He mistakenly thought the 124 had better because he used the wrong gel.
In the last 5 years, I've had more problems with Winchester ammo in multiple platforms than any other major manufacturer. Thank you for this test and since I automatically disqualify Winchester I know which is the winner.
I wrote to Winchester to ask why the W9MMT/W9MMD rounds are out of stock everywhere. They wrote back to say they discontinued them four years ago. No explanation as to why they are still listed on the Winchester website. They pointed me to the Defender line which is not a reduced recoil round so if it's the same bullet it will likely have less penetration. I'm currently saving the few boxes I have of W9MMD and then it will be back to the HSTs. Thanks for the thorough testing. You really did it right.
As much as I appreciate these videos, I still prefer to go by real world LE shootings. I work with the folks at Vista Outdoor (parent company to both Federal/Speer) and since the vast majority of LE departments use one of the big 3 (Federal Premium HST, Speer Gold Dot or Hornady Critical Duty), those are the 3 I trust. If they are proven to work in LE shootings, they are surely good enough for me! Although my preference is the 147gr HST, I’m also a huge fan of the 124gr +P Gold Dot and the 135gr +P Hornady Critical Duty. Until departments out there start using the 147gr Winchester Defend rounds and there’s data out there showing how effective they are, I’ll stick with what LE departments out there are issuing. I know there are departments that run the PDX1, which I believe is the same projectile as the Defend projectile, but I haven’t been able to obtain any data on them yet. This is all obviously my humble opinion, but I’d stick with either the Federal Premium HST or Speer Gold Dot offerings. If you live in an area where it gets cold/snows or want a barrier blind round, then perhaps run the Critical Duty. Otherwise, whether it’s the 124gr/147/150gr HST or the 115/124/147gr Gold Dots, they’ll get the job done if you do your job behind the gun. In the meantime, good luck finding those rounds right now! Argh!
My agency switched from the 124 grain Federal Hydrashok +P+ to the Winchester SXT 124 grain +P. I wouldn’t hesitate to recommend them. I know the T-Series is the updated version. The SXT has nasty sharp talons when they expand. It’s all proper shot placement. The 147 Winchester T- Series is another popular ammunition choice used by many Law Enforcement Agencies.
I too have had primer problems with anything Winchester. Reloadng I only use Federal or CCI for several years. Hope this changes because Winchester is a GREAT outfit.
Wish I could get $.50 HST. I’m in the people’s republic of NY. Can only get the 20 rd boxes at $28. We can’t get ammo shipped to us mortals any more and getting it to a dealer costs stupid money here.
Simple solution to that move out of Cuomo-Ville. You can’t blame anyone but yourself for not voting with your feet and and your wallet and getting tf out of commietown
My pistols have a 3.5 inch barrel and a 4.4 inch barrel. The difference is about 70-80 fps for 115 grain bullets from various manufacturers. I use CorBon +P 115 gr DPX in the 3.5 in (1250 fps). and HST 124 gr (1150 fps) in the 4.4 in. Both pistols shoot the 124 gr NATO round at 1200 fps really, really well. The kinetic energy for the CorBon and NATO rounds is virtually identical with the HST about 10% less.
When you do the 3vs3 same block of winchester vs federal, I'd recommend alternating the shots, just to rule out fatigue on the gel between shot 1 and shot 6 skewing the results.
Is there room for the Winchester to expand at higher velocities? I am not sure. The base of the petals looks to have already have been obtained in these tests. How is it going to expand past the base of the petals? Just thinking out loud...
For me, the ability to buy HST in 50 rd boxes is a big plus. Ammo sold in 20 round boxes is always more per round as compared to 50 round boxes. I've been able to buy HST in 50 round boxes for significant savings. Does Winchester sell their offering in 50 round boxes?
I have to say... I thoroughly enjoy this journey and I wish you would make more videos... I love the knowledgeable, friendly and concise aspect of your work...
Incredibly fun series of vids that finally brought the winner, had tremendous fun and education at the same time, thx man, keep up with creating these super awesome videos. How do I find your patreon channel to see if I could contribute some cash to good cause? Cheers
I accept the conclusion, BUT, Federal also has a training version of the HST, Syntech Training Match in both 124gr & 147gr, I don't think they have the +P's. I have not shot them yet, but have 2,000 rounds of the 124 on order. Thanks for coming back and wrapping this up. I have followed the quest for a couple years and am happy I carry your first runner up.
How does the Hornady Critical Defense 115gr FTX match up with these two winners? I saw the FTX video and you seemed very impressed but didn’t mention them at all in this video?
I agree. I know I'm being too picky, but I like the 5-round tests, too. There is variation between the same kind of round. Five would be better. Regardless, many many thanks for doing these!!
Don't even need to shoot +p+ the +p and standard rounds penetrated 18" consistent through every barrier. Its wound cavity was bigger than hst. So gimmick I think not. I'm glad you think their dumb. More for me to buy.
In the organic gel test the HST were moving 200 FPS faster than the Defend. The only explanation for their less penetration is that they mushroomed and flattened out a lot more that the Defend. Because common sense says a faster moving projectile will penetrate more than its slower moving counterpart. That is, if they are the same. But since the HSTs mushroomed more than the Defends they traveled a bit less through the gel. I still love the Winchester Defend tho. They are a great round and if that is what you use in your carry gun then you are in great shape. You really can’t go wrong with either round. Both perform exceptionally well. Although I would use HSTs in my edc every time if given a choice. If you take a look at other tests done in other channels the HSTs always perform exceptionally well. They never disappoint. Whether it is through bare gel, light clothing, heavy clothing, car doors, etc. They always outperform rounds most of the time. Therefore I would go with HST every time 🤷♂️ But like I said, you can’t go wrong with either
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I really miss this guy. I wonder if he's okay Sure hope so.
we can only hope and pray. He seems like a delightful person.
@@taasch2505 He came away from a motorcycle crash with a back injury that causes chronic pain and retired from his other online activities two years ago to focus on more important things in life. Putting family first and stepping away from the hustle and bustle online after a bad accident is never a bad thing and I wish him well.
Best videos and data out there on carry ammo.
I was thinking the same he did a really good job. I'm thinking he retired from video work. I hope he's doing okay
Just a really nice and informative guy best on TH-cam
Sorry that this was your last video. Thank you for all of the research that you brought us and I hope that everything went as well as possible for you after this video.
Do you know why this was the last one?
@@allenbolen9705 No, I don’t actually know for certain, but I believe that it was health related due to allusions to that in a few other videos.
@@KD-lb9bg what do you mean allusions?
@@sigspearthumb1056 he was alluding to the fact that he may have some health issues. In other words he wasn't coming right out and saying I've got health issues.
Very disconcerting we haven't heard from him since the Summer before the pandemic.
I come back to this channel again and again and again for data.
Right so does this mean the hst is the ultimate as round specifically +p because u want to meet protocol if you want to exceed the minimum
@@dabigbosss3791 +P isn't necessary. Just carry the standard HST load. 124 or 147, it doesn't matter.
@@jlam3927 In the bare gel test they didn’t penetrate effectively tho I think the extra 100fps would help it get there
@@dabigbosss3791 The difference is negligible. The extra recoil and flash of a +p especially out of a short barrel...isn't.
I'll stick with 147gr HST's.
but you are doing the gun community a huge favor by documenting all of this
I'll stick with Winchester white box 115g JHP
@@CerebrumPedere and that’s a foolish round to have for self defense.
@@lesnjeffsc I mean it did pretty well, I have a couple boxes of it myself, but it definitely wouldn't be my first choice. I wouldn't even put it in my top 10, especially considering that it costs about the same as HSTs these days. He probably bought a bunch back when Walmart sold handgun ammo and just never rotated out his old carry ammo.
147 grain in a 3 inch barrel is dumb
@@mmafanatic-tz5or seemed to perform pretty well in all of these tests.
So glad you’re back on social media. You have the best ammo tests anywhere. Solid conclusions, appreciate all your hard work. Thank you!
@Harry Peterson It's not a re-upload.
As one of the few people on youtube who realize that most people conceal carry small handguns, your analysis of different ammo and how they perform in a 3" barrel gun is indispensable to us. I am a bit surprised you don't have more subs, so I'll be a +1
This series has informed me more than the rest of 9mm TH-cam videos combined. Thank you.
Id like to see you come back and test the different winner circle ammo out of different barrel lengths. At least 4" & 4.5" barrels. This series was fantastic. Would be cool to see the non expanding defensive rounds thrown in the mix and measure wound cavities. Underwood extreme defender, black hills honey badger ect.
We miss you, I hope you're enjoying life and staying healthy.
Would like to see 147 HST vs Win Defend 147 head to head. Those are the two I use.
Winchester with the upset! Didn't see that coming. I still love my HST's though.
Oh yes I agree. My Sig P320 compact (3.9" barrel) loves the HST's in 147gr standard pressure, which I carry, and I believe it performs better than all the other HST's imo. I bought 8 boxes of 50 per box online for almost the same price of a box of 20..I was able to see the performance, reliability, and consistency at a way lower cost than buying them in the 20 round boxes! I recently looked for them and I can't find them anymore for civilians. It says on each box that the boxes of 50 are for law enforcement only and the site I bought from now asks for proof. I say BS! We should get the same buying opportunity as anyone else! Glad I bought them when I did...
Down goes Frasier! Down goes Fraizer,
@@OldSolidSnake Try online at SGAmmo and TargetSportsUSA. That's where I get all my ammo and I bought some HSTs about a month ago, 50-rd boxes for $30. Shipping isn't bad if you order several boxes at a time; if you buy a case it's free at TS. They still sell them to everyone, not just LEO.
@@abc-wv4in excellent! Thanks! It's been about a year since I bought them, and they were $23/box
@@OldSolidSnake Glad to pass on the info. SGA and TS used to sell them for $20/box of 50, but last fall they went up to $30. Still much, much cheaper than buying the little 20-rd boxes locally. I hope they don't stop selling to non-LEO; I know many online sellers now require LE credentials. Guess I need to order a few more just in case.
Most detail oriented and thorough analysis. I love it when the modern TH-camrs discount his information. Even though they are shooting the same bullets. The modern breed of TH-camrs somehow believe their results are more relevant than his. (Probably because they did the test) The more recent youtubers draw their conclusions from non -standard gel blocks, with a "close enough" attitude toward the details such as temperature, bullets shot per type, shooting 2-5 rounds into a gel block and drawing conclusions. I will take this guys info. .....Over any "TOOL shooting at TARGETS"
Glad you finished the test. I know you've had some health issues, but it appears that you have fallen away like TNOUTDOORS9. It's a shame, as both of you did excellent, informative videos.
You both been missed, and there hasn't been any worthy successors that I'm aware of.
If anyone knows of one, please advise.
Are you familiar with Lucky Gunner's ballistic gel testing? They use Clear Ballistics in theirs, so I suppose their results come with the same limitations that ShootingTheBull410 disclaims about his old tests. But I think one could at least say the tests have internal consistency, regardless of how they would compare to calibrated gelatin. I have very little academic or practical education in ballistic science so I'm not really qualified to speak on all that.
www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/
Im with you 100%, TNOD9 & This channel are the best and have both disappeared unfortunately. I understand for now about ammo availability/price but even before the insanity they'd both not made anything in some time as far as i know.
Really wish this guy still made content.
Wow... almost another year and nothing from STB410. My thoughts are with you and thanks for all of the ballistic knowledge you given us.
I hope you and your family are doing well.
Oh, and while am at it, posting messages, etc,...
I will NOT be changing my carry ammo from Federal HST to the new Winchester ammo even given your evidence.
Here is why.
1. Most police forces, federal agents, etc, etc, etc...today, use either HST's or Speer Gold Dots.
2. If a court trial were ever to happen, knowing that you use the exact same ammo that law enforcement uses is a big +!
3. I really like the flower HST's make... (LOL)
Again, my best wishes to you and yours.
Oops, and the Federal HSTs at least WERE cheaper, before Obiden or JOeBama.
@@Kerry1960 Going against the data for emotional reasons.
Enjoyed this series very much and learned a lot. Thanks for putting it out there and look forward to more.
Your tests were all top notch, I appreciate all the time and effort that went into this series and so glad to see you back on TH-cam.
Your videos influenced my ammo buying decisions for all my pistols, Thank you so much and God Bless
I second that. Thank you sir
I consider myself a bit of a scientist, at least in methodology. These videos are exactly what i wanted to see in a testing format. Excellent work sir
This has been a long series and the care and thoughtfulness of your testing is commended. Like a huge number of others, I carry a short-barreled 9mm and your testing is very relevant to that situation. Some of the results were surprising, both good and bad, which is great! Knowledge is power.I reload my own self-defense rounds and the velocity information and detailed expansion analyses have given me good baseline information for developing my recipes.Much appreciated!!! Thanks!!!
Please come back!!! We really need to see an in depth analysis of the new Norma NXD ammo in a carry sized gun like the 43x
Please do a head to head of the HST 147gr vs. defend 147gr.
I bet the HSTs would win that
Hope you’re doing ok. It would be great to hear from you.
Thanks for putting all that work into this!
I’d love to see a series from a 4” barrel like a Glock 19 or SIG P320C but I think this information gives me a good baseline.
Thank you, sir!
Excellent video! I carry the 150 gr. HST Micro in my 3" barrel 9mms. Based on your testing. You have the BEST and most objective testing I have seen
gary K Me too i was wondering if anybody else actually carried that grain bullet. Everybody seem to like the 124 or 147
@@Trenchwork. The 150 gr. loading is made specifically for short barrels.
Like others, I’d like to see the 147 HST redone in real gel as well as the 124+P Gold Dot. They both originally appeared to do better than either of what you tested in this video.
Regardless, it would be A+ if you did a 10mm series. Now that Gold Dot, HST, Winchester Defend and Critical Duty are all available in 10mm it would make for a short and simple but very popular ammoquest.
The 147s are heavier, but lack the velocity to reliably expand. As a result, they tend to over penetrate. Note that the tests were standardized over four metrics; penetration and expansion in bare gel, and penetration and expansion with demin. They do not take into account one-stop shots, failures to stop or lethality.
I agree😀
@@TheRustydog42 These tests show that HST and the Winchester both expand just fine.
Very few people carry 10mm. .38 Special and .45 make more sense.
@@ItsEverythingElse The HST has since been neutered in it's newer rendition and I wouldn't personally trust it out of a 3" barrel. It's got less expansion (maybe a harder core?) and more penetration which is a great trade off IMO, but the new 147 won't reach 1000fps out of a 4" barrel and out of 3" barrels it's basically a lightweight, smaller diameter 45 acp. The 124 hst is the standard for all 3" barreled guns.
Absolutely one of the best and most extensive defense ammo tests that I've seen. I choose the HST for performance and record in actual shootings. I also still have an axe to grind with Winchester over their insistence that civilian lives aren't worth as much as police with regard to their ridiculous restriction of Ranger ammo to law enforcement only.
Federal does the same thing, their HST 124+P, 147, and (now-discontinued) 147+P are only sold to law enforcement. We have been fortunate to find dealers who will bend the rules and sell to civilians anyway, but Federal is clamping down on that. As for the record in actual shootings -- HST has been an outstanding performer for law enforcement agencies, I have never heard of any agency complain about it. But then again, they're generally using 4.6" barrel G17s or 4"-barrel Springfield XDs or some other full-size weapon. But I am unaware of there being any record of its performance in 3" pistols in actual shootings? That's why I went through the process to test -- because there was no reliable data (that I know of) regarding performance in short-barrel pistols.
So Happy to see you back
It's finally happening!
Looking forward to 38 Special when it hits.
I am, too! So glad to see this guy back!!
@@abc-wv4in Agreed!
Would have been nice
I like pizza.
We appreciate all the time and effort you put into these tests. It helps a lot of us select the best self defense rounds. I personally went with the 147 HST (standard)
Ditto on both!
The 147gr HST hands down is the best imo. I respect his test, but im rockin the HST
Glad you're back brotha, best wishes for your health. Look forward to more ballistic videos, this channel was always one of my favorites. Godspeed
As an HST fan boy I'm going to point out that the showdown is very slightly rigged. 124 vs 147 is like a 185 lb and a 220 lb boxer both squaring off. A match that doesn't respect weight classes is going to have definite bias towards the heavier hitter.
Still, Winchester did their research and I have to give them serious respect for making it available commercially much earlier than Federal released their commercial 147 HST. Congratulations on finishing the ammo quest.
Great point
Agreed 100%.
I think it’s because the 124 HST performed better than the 147 HST
He already tested both the standard pressure and +P versions of the HST 147gr. It didn't perform as well which is why it didn't make it into this video. Nothing biased or rigged about it.
The goal was to find the best overall 9mm load regardless of bullet weight.
@shootingthebull410
Hope you're doing well...
Many of thanks for all of your comprehensive ammo test over the years. Hope to see you again soon!
God Bless
Comparing the ballistic numbers in this recent organic gel test to the old Federal HST 147gr data, I would say the Federal HST 147gr is the true winner. It's neck and neck with the Wincester in terms of penetration, but it's doing it with that awesome HST expansion. The Winchester sure looks good, but I am sticking with the 147gr HST.
Stellar presentation as always. Thanks for the immense effort and cost to put these tests together. Kind of a surprise for the Winchester!
Thank you for getting this wrapped up!
It’s amazing who just half an inch of barrel length effects the results. From 4”-4.5” service size to Lucky Gunner’s 3.5” M&P Compact showed allot. And now your more realistic barrel length of 3” REALLY opened my eyes.
Due to price, and how well hst expand in all 9mm loads, as well as other calibers.....hst for me
HST all the way and it's not even close. Winchester ammo has been the most unreliable, inconsistent, poor QC crap for me for years. More ammo failures from Winchester ammo than all others combined. Even if I could find well priced 50 round boxes of Win the way I can HST....nope. HST or Gold Dot. Hell I'll go all the way back to 9BPLE before I carry Win
I'm sticking with my HSTs too, but I don't doubt his test results. I like those HST blossoms.
Well done sir! I can't thank you enough for ALL your hard work, effort and time that was involved in this and all your other tests for our benefit. I hope I speak for everyone who has watched any of your videos when I say we appreciate your honesty in conducting this test to see which was best. I have to say on your "winner" I'm a bit biased towards Federal HST's (hydra-shok) since I have religiously used these for years. Thank you again and I can't wait for your next series (I hope).
Terrific review! Among the multitude gel test videos on the net .... to me, this one stands out by providing great depth explaining expected real=life outcomes. Keep up the great work. Thank you!
I've never clicked a notification so fast.
ChickenMusket yup me too
What's it been, five, six, maybe seven years of anticipation?
LOL
I saw the graphics and it was automatic.
totaly agree :)
Imagine how dumb these comments will look when it's no longer "cool" to say this? Lol. As if it matters how quickly you click on a video that will be posted for years/decades.
Im so glad you're back. I cant wait to see the .38 and .45 Ammo Quest!
Agreed!! 38 special and 45acp have been some of the most carried guns ever before 9mm, 380 and 40 got popular over the last couple decades.
I've been an HST fan for years, but i WILL consider the defender ammo. Thanks for all your work on this!
Look at the new Winchester Ranger One line... the 127gr +P+ is what the Orlando.gov 👮🏻♂️ uses. SIG P320, P226R.
Would have loved some cutaway shots of the wound channel.
The HST likely had a more devastating wound channel, which is gonna equal to more stopping power then just penetration depth alone.
I carry 124GR HST standard pressure and I have since 2019, this video back then helped me to make that decision l, and I've stuck with them ever since.
No second thoughts no regrets.
Also Federal now has a train and deffend option for HST as well.
Thanks for taking the time and incurring the expense. Would be interested in similar comparison from a "standard" length barrel.
I carried HST 124 grain for years. It always worked until I got a new carry gun & now it jams. Winchester discontinued the Defend round so I'm using Critical Defense for now. No jams.
I absolutely love the recoil feeling of 147 gr winchesters. They apparently got the formula of powder type and charge 👌🏽 perfect
Congrats from Brazil ! We appreciate all your hard work and your very solid conclusions,.Thank you!
Ive been carrying the defend rounds since the initial testing. I waa sold then, im sold still. Yes HSTs are great rounds but i want that extra penetration without over penetration. Great series, so happy you and your wife are doung well. God bless.
Good hollow points...But bullet technology has improved in your absence and the Underwood Extreme Defender should have been in the mix, and may have been the overall winner...Keep those vids uploading!...Glad your back!!!...
Exotic boutique ammo should never be carried. There's 0 street cred for those projectiles. Extreme defender, Liberty Defense, ARX, Glaser, RIP, Extreme Shock, etc are all garbage that looks good in advertisment.
@@mannys9130 I do not know about the other rounds you mentioned... I have blown through a case of Extreme Defender with no malfunctions in a Glock 19...I call that "Street Cred'...Plus they make a hole larger than hollow points and the barrier penetration is second to none...I will bet my 60 years of living and 49 years of experience with guns on the fact they will allow me to prevail in a gunfight...Copper bullets are the future...Don't be such a 'Fudd'...Lol...
Love the Ammo Quest series as it provides objective information. That being said, Winchester Defense has dethroned HST...barely. But HST remains a "stellar" performer which is why I'm still and HST fan boy.
I dont think I've ever even seen the Winchester Defense online and definitely not in person. Even the HST are very rare in store and online, but it is out there. I was able to get a bunch of it in various grains in 9mm and the standard version in .45 acp.
Check out BoneFrog gun club for HST ammo. 180gr & 165gr HST usually $35 for box of 50. 124gr, 124gr +P, 147gr HST $37.50 for 50rds. I purchased them at this price during the height of the pandemic and the sme price just a couple of weeks ago.
It has to penetrate deep enough for the expanded bullet to do damage without over penetrating. Federal makes the 147 HST and 147 FMJ with the same velocity. That’s my go to ammo.
The 124+p Bonded Golden Saber was very consistent. 15 inches every time. Love that round
I went back and reviewed the Federal HST 147 grain standard pressure review, and I think that should have gotten the trophy.. That review showed the 147 grain HST bullets performed better than the Winchester Defends.
Well the new HSTs don't perform like that, they expand about 20% less and penetrate a few inches more. Still great performance don't get me wrong, I still carry the new HSTs with no issues, but the penetration and expansion figures pretty much match the Winchester train and defend except they look prettier.
THOUSANDS of people know your nickname and your scrupulous testing, and are GRATEFUL!...………………………...elsullo
Including me.
I'll stick with my Winchester Ranger T in 357 Sig, 40 S&W, & 45 ACP. Those open up to massive diameters. They penetrate deeply. They're also pretty.
What an outstanding ballistics video! I applaud you sir! 😎
I wish your videos were still being produced. Your are very complete and unbiased.
HST does come in boxes of 50. It's getting harder to find, but I've seen the 50 box online for around $30 recently. LEOs can still get it for $20 ish.
sgammo.com
I think the HST 147 did the best personally. But I really like the idea of train and defend which also did great.
Wish there were more of these in other calibers
Appreciate, thankful, & happy you are sharing your time!! Thank you
Yeah, that was a surprise. Thanks for all your testing. It's tough when expansion vs penatration is so close to a wash.
"Consistency" is one of the things that sets your channel apart. So many just do one round, which I assumed was fine, till I saw your channel years ago and noticed some loads going all over the place from great to poor in a few rounds.
Such a solid series of videos. I really hope you push out more content in the future.
Have you thought about testing any of the Lehigh or Underwood Xtreme Defender or Xtreme Penetrator 9mm loads? I'm wondering if doing so would yield an upset as happened in the .380 ACP Ammo Quest with the Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator rounds?
I use those in my 357sig esp when hiking
But wasn't the final decision that the Penetrators look better in gel than they do in real life? I think the last final conclusion for the .380 was still for the XTP's and HydraShoks.
The Penetrators were so good in .380 because it's hard to engineer .380s that penetrate enough. 9mm Penetrators over-penetrate. I think Military Arms Channel did gel tests with 9mm Penetrators which showed their overpenetration.
@@jameswoodard4304If over penetration is the concern, then perhaps Xtreme Defenders (vs Penetrators) might be a more appropriate choice for 9mm?
@@clinthastings3254 ,
Maybe. I mean, it's not like I'm paying for the ballistic gell so there's no harm in testing it to see.
I carry the Winchester Defend because of your original review. A huge plus that totally sold me on the round was the very affordable, ballistic matched Train rounds. When I practice, I get the most accuracy from this product vs any other round I shoot. Thanks for all the work you've done to test out all these products.
147g HST did better in the correct gel than the 124. Run the test again please!
Agreed! The lighter 124 gr. HST is more effected by energy loss in gel than the heavier 147 gr. Winchester. I carry HST because of his earlier tests. It's going to take some doing to get me to change.
I agree with you. The 147 HST was the clear winner.
That's what I was curious about. Why did he choose the 124 hst as the finalist if 147 performed better? Oh well I'll run 147 hst.
Yeah, for now at least, I'm still sticking with the 147 grain HST in my P938 based on the earlier testing.
@Uganda Knuckles the 147 had better penetration than the 124 when he retested it. He mistakenly thought the 124 had better because he used the wrong gel.
In the last 5 years, I've had more problems with Winchester ammo in multiple platforms than any other major manufacturer. Thank you for this test and since I automatically disqualify Winchester I know which is the winner.
If you ever see this, hope you're doing good and positive vibes.
I wrote to Winchester to ask why the W9MMT/W9MMD rounds are out of stock everywhere. They wrote back to say they discontinued them four years ago. No explanation as to why they are still listed on the Winchester website. They pointed me to the Defender line which is not a reduced recoil round so if it's the same bullet it will likely have less penetration. I'm currently saving the few boxes I have of W9MMD and then it will be back to the HSTs. Thanks for the thorough testing. You really did it right.
As much as I appreciate these videos, I still prefer to go by real world LE shootings. I work with the folks at Vista Outdoor (parent company to both Federal/Speer) and since the vast majority of LE departments use one of the big 3 (Federal Premium HST, Speer Gold Dot or Hornady Critical Duty), those are the 3 I trust. If they are proven to work in LE shootings, they are surely good enough for me! Although my preference is the 147gr HST, I’m also a huge fan of the 124gr +P Gold Dot and the 135gr +P Hornady Critical Duty. Until departments out there start using the 147gr Winchester Defend rounds and there’s data out there showing how effective they are, I’ll stick with what LE departments out there are issuing. I know there are departments that run the PDX1, which I believe is the same projectile as the Defend projectile, but I haven’t been able to obtain any data on them yet. This is all obviously my humble opinion, but I’d stick with either the Federal Premium HST or Speer Gold Dot offerings. If you live in an area where it gets cold/snows or want a barrier blind round, then perhaps run the Critical Duty. Otherwise, whether it’s the 124gr/147/150gr HST or the 115/124/147gr Gold Dots, they’ll get the job done if you do your job behind the gun. In the meantime, good luck finding those rounds right now! Argh!
Lol.
My agency switched from the 124 grain Federal Hydrashok +P+ to the Winchester SXT 124 grain +P. I wouldn’t hesitate to recommend them. I know the T-Series is the updated version. The SXT has nasty sharp talons when they expand. It’s all proper shot placement. The 147 Winchester T- Series is another popular ammunition choice used by many Law Enforcement Agencies.
I too have had primer problems with anything Winchester. Reloadng I only use Federal or CCI for several years. Hope this changes because Winchester is a GREAT outfit.
I'll stick with HST, Federal has way better quality control than Winchester. Plus, the 147 VS 147 should have been this test. 👌🏻
Probably half the price too at around .50 per round.
I feel exactly the same way. My guess is the Federal is more reliable.
Wish I could get $.50 HST. I’m in the people’s republic of NY. Can only get the 20 rd boxes at $28. We can’t get ammo shipped to us mortals any more and getting it to a dealer costs stupid money here.
@@jasonbenton7962
Ugh. That's tough.
Simple solution to that move out of Cuomo-Ville. You can’t blame anyone but yourself for not voting with your feet and and your wallet and getting tf out of commietown
My pistols have a 3.5 inch barrel and a 4.4 inch barrel. The difference is about 70-80 fps for 115 grain bullets from various manufacturers. I use CorBon +P 115 gr DPX in the 3.5 in (1250 fps). and HST 124 gr (1150 fps) in the 4.4 in.
Both pistols shoot the 124 gr NATO round at 1200 fps really, really well. The kinetic energy for the CorBon and NATO rounds is virtually identical with the HST about 10% less.
Thanks for the time, money and effort put into making all these videos!
When you do the 3vs3 same block of winchester vs federal, I'd recommend alternating the shots, just to rule out fatigue on the gel between shot 1 and shot 6 skewing the results.
BTW, American Eagle 147 gr. has the same specs at the 147 SP HST. So, the training factor is moot. At least for 147 HST.
Thank you for all the hard work and time you’ve put into this for everyone. Big thumbs up!
Is there room for the Winchester to expand at higher velocities? I am not sure. The base of the petals looks to have already have been obtained in these tests. How is it going to expand past the base of the petals?
Just thinking out loud...
For me, the ability to buy HST in 50 rd boxes is a big plus. Ammo sold in 20 round boxes is always more per round as compared to 50 round boxes. I've been able to buy HST in 50 round boxes for significant savings.
Does Winchester sell their offering in 50 round boxes?
you should do a "ammo quest" series on the best ammo for duty, and compact pistols
I have to say... I thoroughly enjoy this journey and I wish you would make more videos... I love the knowledgeable, friendly and concise aspect of your work...
Incredibly fun series of vids that finally brought the winner, had tremendous fun and education at the same time, thx man, keep up with creating these super awesome videos. How do I find your patreon channel to see if I could contribute some cash to good cause? Cheers
What a thorough and detailed comparison. Thank you sir, this must have been a lot of very careful work on your part. Truly appreciate it!!
I wish you would have compared 147 HST to 147 Winchester.
qqq1701, he has done so. Watch his video on it and compare the data
@@christopherbishop4927 He has? Please link to the video comparing 147 HST to 147 Winchester in the same block at the same time just like this video.
I accept the conclusion, BUT, Federal also has a training version of the HST, Syntech Training Match in both 124gr & 147gr, I don't think they have the +P's. I have not shot them yet, but have 2,000 rounds of the 124 on order. Thanks for coming back and wrapping this up. I have followed the quest for a couple years and am happy I carry your first runner up.
Is there any difference between the HST “Tactical” that comes in the LE 50 rd box and the standard SD stuff in the same weight us lowly pee ons get?
Great test and great videos. I recently reloaded some 147hst pulls and did a video. I’ll post a link when I get it uploaded
Still sticking with my HST...
How does the Hornady Critical Defense 115gr FTX match up with these two winners? I saw the FTX video and you seemed very impressed but didn’t mention them at all in this video?
What about the federal hst 147+p? I figured it would make it into the "winners circle"
Skip Tomassian fact
I would love to be able to find some HST 147 +p
It’s really GREAT TO SEE YOU BACK. IM sorry ur stuck with oloserdontcare. That shite is garbage. I pray for your continued good health.
I think that my team, HST 147 grain, should have made it to the finals!! Sudden-death overtime round please!! haha
I agree. I know I'm being too picky, but I like the 5-round tests, too. There is variation between the same kind of round. Five would be better. Regardless, many many thanks for doing these!!
Absolutely love your work in removing the guessing game with ammo. Now I dont have to wonder what my wife and I should carry. Much love!
Thank you for all the work and investment of time & money to reach this point! You are appreciated.
Ditto that! Many thanks; you are my favorite reviewer.
Ammo currently loaded in my EDCs:
* Hornady 9mm 124gr XTP +P
* Speer 9mm 124gr Gold Dot +P
* Winchester 9mm 115gr +P+
*Sinterfire 9mm 100gr Special Duty frangible
*Federal .40 S&W 135gr Low Recoil
Yay you're back.
👏👏
This guy did some really good testing wish he still made videos I cant see anything newer then 3yrs ago
The winning ammo's discontinued. Great.
OMG-you're back! Maybe I've been missing your videos, but I haven't heard from you in awhile. Glad you're back.
You ought to try Underwood extreme defender +p+ rounds.
Gimmick
@@jsk8drummer nope. Check out the guys that have shot pigs with em then dissected the carcasses.
Most of us "regular" people aren't going to use +P+ rounds in a 3" barrel gun.
Don't even need to shoot +p+ the +p and standard rounds penetrated 18" consistent through every barrier. Its wound cavity was bigger than hst. So gimmick I think not. I'm glad you think their dumb. More for me to buy.
@@abc-wv4in why not?
In the organic gel test the HST were moving 200 FPS faster than the Defend. The only explanation for their less penetration is that they mushroomed and flattened out a lot more that the Defend. Because common sense says a faster moving projectile will penetrate more than its slower moving counterpart. That is, if they are the same. But since the HSTs mushroomed more than the Defends they traveled a bit less through the gel. I still love the Winchester Defend tho. They are a great round and if that is what you use in your carry gun then you are in great shape. You really can’t go wrong with either round. Both perform exceptionally well. Although I would use HSTs in my edc every time if given a choice. If you take a look at other tests done in other channels the HSTs always perform exceptionally well. They never disappoint. Whether it is through bare gel, light clothing, heavy clothing, car doors, etc. They always outperform rounds most of the time. Therefore I would go with HST every time 🤷♂️ But like I said, you can’t go wrong with either