Straight wall cartridges. As far as a pistol cartridges. The 44 mag works wonderful on Deer. Better than it has any right to. Elmer Keith did a good job designing that round.
You said it best towards the end. People are belly aching about these new cartridges. Just be thankful that we have the opportunity to choose between all of these fine options.
@@tubeguy4066 The problem is that I can't legally hunt with most of the "usual" calibers you would likely speak of, where I hunt. Take it up with my state legislature.
The 350 Legend is a winner and cheap ammo is widely available in Florida. It's highly popular in Ohio, a straight wall cartridge state. Bolt action rifles are cheap and accurate, and the round does not kick much. What more can you ask for?
Here in Ohio I love using my 45/70, but My daughters .357 mag is a handy dandy little rifle that works just as good at the ranges we hunt at. I have had deer run off a little ways with both. And some that dropped on the spot with both.
@@ChaotiX1indeed it has made quite the comeback. It's resurged popularity has really pushed manufacturers to design new lever guns. as well as redesign old models.
Surprisingly versatile round, stops the biggest bear in a scout rifle package that bush pilots swear by and can be used on mule deer down to whitetail etc.
Everyone of my buddies that shoot a 45-70 have played with my .350L at 200 yards with 170gr pills and are quickly realizing that lil .350 is something pretty special. Almost zero recoil and shooting 1.5 inch groups at 200 yards all day... That 350L in such a light, short, crazy accurate rife is hard to beat. They quickly realized that 45-70 with rainbow trajectory in a 9lb gun isn't where it's at at all !!!
I choose to hunt with 450 Bushmaster when I am in thick woods in Montana. Never had to track a deer or a bear. I don't use the 450 for hunting open country.
@@danhughes3626 Ron Spomer really shorted the 460 S&W, with hot ammo from Underwood, Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, etc or handloads the 460 is the power house of any of the straight wall cartridges he mentioned and with a 1.8" case length and 45 cal bullet it fits the straight wall restrictions. Underwood has a load that produces 2,886 ft.lbs of ME in a pistol barrel, if that load was put in a T/C Encore with a 26" barrel it would be a seriously heavy hitter running neck and neck with hot 45-70 govt loads. I did a longer comment on this video with even more details about the 460 if you are interested.
I'm a 308 guy and don't live in a State that has requirements of just straight wall cartridges only, but I do enjoy grabbing my daughter's 350 legend and sitting in the stand with it! I had my doubts bout it, but it has proven many times to be very good choice for deer medicine in SC! So for a daddy's gun I'm rooting for the new 400 legend!
As an IL deer hunter, I love the attention you've given to these new straight wall cartridges. But since they're replacing slug guns for us, I would have loved to see a comparison to 12 & 20 ga slugs.
It would be fun to see. However, I switched from my 870 slug gun, using the lightfield hybrid slugs to using the 350 legend in 2019, and I will never look back.
Ah! Now there is a good point . And which slugs are they all the same? I don't think many would like to compare their center fire straight wall of choice against the remington accutip bonded slug. Except it isn't actually available I've been trying to get some for two yrs.
@@JJ-qy8xu For years, I used a Savage 220 slug gun, shooting the Remington 3" AccuTip, and it was dynamite on deer. Now, I hunt in a county that allows rifles, and I use a .375 Win. in the brush and a .308 for everywhere else. Getting bullets for the .375 is the problem, but I did locate a source for them. I don't yet know how well they will shoot out of my M94.
Slugs out of a 12ga can take a charging grizzly down if you hit it in the chest that 450 bushmaster will need a nice shot to the heart lung area or just magdump your ar into its chest
I took a doe late season this past January(illinois 1st rifle season ever) 200 yards best performance yet. Also took a 10pt with a ar pistol opening day and my brother did. Both at 150 yards no tracking required. 350 legend handloads are the best. Can't say much for factory.
I had the 444 years ago.. fantastic deer rifle.. every deer I shot never took a step... I loved it way more then the 06 .. 270 ect I had.. the 444 was the 1st rifle I would grab
@KDMag 88 yeah but sure hammers deer.. shot many with mine.. none took a step.. shot a doe in the chest directly facing me at 40 yards... came out her butt...I loaded the 240 gr xtp... it was a deer killer
@@kdmag88 yes it is. Not all states have a length limit on straight walls, Ohio being an example. Don't assume. At least take the bare minimum to look up what you are commenting on, or in the case of the nature of your comment reach out to the original poster to find out what context he is making his comment under first.
The reason for not allowing rifles in 'shotgun only' area in Michigan is just because of the number of people who hunt deer, not the range of the rifle. We can't use a .30-06 for deer, but it is legal for squirrels. Lawmakers do not know guns or range or hunting.
Possibly the original idea was that because a shotgun has much shorter range than a rifle (even if you fire slugs) you are a) less likely to get a deer because you have to sneak up on it and b) less likely to accidentally hit someone downrange through the foliage, as the projectile will drop more.
@@nerd1000ify I do believe they thought they were making deer hunting safer in the more populated area of Michigan. There are many more deer hunters than squirrel hunters, and hopefully most squirrel hunters wouldn't hunt with a rifle. Also have to factor in the alcohol when considering deer camps.
@@rodneyharouff5739 Best to assume nothing of lawmakers, especially knowledge of the real world. During the great depression the federal government went around killing pigs because lawmakers thought people would be better off with beef than pork. A bill to reduce the gestation period of cows almost made it to the floor.
Love my Henry Big Boy .357. Here in Ohio it’s pretty easy to get within 125 yards of anything you need to shoot, so it is the one I take into the woods every time!
For all of North America, the 444 is probably the best cartridge of the staightwalls. If you hunt in eastern states in wooded areas or keeping your shots within 150 yards a lever action 44 magnum is the best option.
@@patrickhenry236 I was blowing up boulders with realy big slugs and having fun. with a marlin 444 but had to keep going because we were building rock walls out of them After 80 rounds my nose wouldnt stop bleeding at 60 i felt like somebody was hitting me with a base ball bat I made my dad buy a muzzle brake
@@alonzahanks1182 that's not the 444's fault. That one's on you. There is a kid where I work who has kleenex hanging out his nose every other day because he gets nose bleeds during the spring and summer even if he sits still in a chair. I've been shooting the 444 for over 20 years, and have never bled from doing so. That was your own body having an issue, not the rifle.
I agree. I think the trip4 is the finest lever action round ever produced. It is an all around great caliber capable of taking any and all North American game and would be a reasonable option in Africa, too, if loaded with the proper bullet. I prefer the shorter range weapons. I am not in favor of the hunter shooting game at extreme ranges. To me, that is not hunting. I am not judging long range shooters, I just think hunting is a short range endeavor requiring a different skill from that of doping your equipment/data to hit game at 700 yards.
I have a Ruger American Ranch in .450 Bushmaster topped with a Burris Compact 2x7x32mm scope. It's a 1 MOA rifle with Hornady Black 250 grain bullets. It's my truck / camp / drift boat rifle in bear territory. It's a great combo and very compact. I was very impressed with the .450 bullet accuracy with factory ammo.
Load your own you can dial that recoil down a bit. Testing pure zinc projectiles since softer and cheaper than copper. Nice using one bullet mould for pistol and rifle
I have the same setup, except a leupold as well. Tack driver! Have shot several animals with it and only had to track one buck because it went into thick brush. They either drop where they stand, or crash about 50 yards or less from where they were shot.
Do you get much fouling with pure zinc bullets? It's got such a low boiling point that I'd expect a little zinc to boil from the bottom of the bullet and deposit in the barrel when fired.
I've got a 20 inch barrel Bushmaster AR in 450 Bushmaster and its absolutely amazing. I shoot it at ranges up 250 yards and its performance for me has been perfect. Absolutely hammers game. Thanks Ron for another great video.
I just bought one. I took it to the range and it kicks like a mule. After I finetune my scope, I think it will be a very nice addition to the collection.
Ill light load the 450 for target shooting. Test different projectiles on different materials too. Pure zinc is a bitch to mould but expands a bit on steel and easier on the barrel than copper. Just under an inch on backside of a 20 lb propane can😊
I have an SBR and plan to hunt with a 10.5” barrel and a form 1 can. Been hunting with 6.5 Grendel and it does the job but it lacks in the umph department and doesn’t hit with any great authority. I found 9 boxes of 450 bushmaster on clearance at Walmart and bought 80 rounds for under $100. Time to buy an AR upper. 😂
I have the 350 legend and the 450 bushmaster I use them for deer hunting in Maine. And In my opinion 100% 350 legend fills the role of that old Thirty Thirty Which is taken more dear in the United States probably than any other Rifle . I absolutely love watching your videos it's great to be able to learn and have knowledge of these things. Keep up a good work
I built a 350 legend AR. I was honestly shocked how limited the recoil was and it feeds flawlessly. I really like the straight wall stuff in that 100 yard mark.
Same here! This thing is a sewing machine smooth, plenty of knock-down for pigs, more than enough for White-tail with fast dispatch inside 200 yards. I'm very pleased with the round.
For 357 mag/max the numbers were handgun numbers. In a rifle both get a lot closer to 30-30, neither gets there, but much more reasonable. 44 gets similar benefits of too.
Glad to see you finally give some love to the .450 Bushmaster. I’ve been impressed by its performance since I’ve been hunting with mine and was able to get it in the AR platform which I’m a fan of. 1/2” groups at 100. Tons of energy at 100-150 yards which is the max distance I hunt in Mid Michigan. Thanks again for finally including it in the straight wall debate. I knew it would perform well.
Shot a buck with one broadside and it ruptured the diaphragm even though I took a good dbl lung shot towards the shoulder. Ended up with a nasty gutting job and had to trim a bunch of tainted meat by the time I got it out of the woods. It was my last deer with a .450 bushmaster. Went back to what wasn't broken from before.
I ahot a nice buck with my 20 inch barrel ar 450 bushmaster… was a high hit broke the back and broke the sternum and ribs .. made a 10 inch hole across the top 😳 450 is a 45/70 in a ar platform
I’ve had 30-06 turn deer insides into jelly with the Nosler Ballistic tip 150 grain bullets. It’s all about bullet placement. But I think Hornady needs to think about changing the design of their 250 grain FTXs. They are not bonded and the jacket is a shade too thin. The bullets shed their jackets too quickly and dump their energy too quickly. But if you reload, you can find a better bullet for deer and elk.
Thanks for the excellent comparison. I just picked up a 450 Bushmaster but not for the usual reasons. I live in the northern plains of MT where most of my shots at deer are 250-500yds. I use a 270WSM for that. I was looking to find a pistol caliber carbine in 45 cal. After much research I decided to go with the Bushmaster. A lot more power and energy than the 45acp and actually cheaper to build in a AR platform than the 45acp.
Nice to have one bullet mould for handgun and rifle rounds. Can mould zinc too for any anti lead laws which is cheaper and easier on your barrel than copper is. Will still expand some depending on velocity too. Saeco #945. Zinc is a bitch to size but doable. 45acp non gas checked can still send em 850 plus fps. Gas checked and lubed for 450B. 😊
Another great video Ron, I hunt Northern Minnesota, thick woods. I have a 30-30, 270 and a couple other deer rifles. Two years ago I built a 450 Bushmaster AR fantastic gun just to noisy racking in that first round so I bought a Ruger bolt action 450 Bushmaster. Have crushed 2 deer with them, this past year a 10 pt 217 pound buck, dressed out and after hanging for 5 days. My new favorite woods gun.
@@jaydunbar7538 They should all be legal in states that only have the straight wall restriction. Not every jurisdiction has the length limitation afaik.
@@cbsbass4142the people who hunt aren’t the people who vote to restrict access to hunting or firearms. They just happen to live in the same state as urban know nothings who vote in droves on issues they don’t understand.
As always Ron . You put out great videos and good information. I'm in Michigan and have been a Handgun 44 Magnum hunter for the last 20+ Years . I have now moved to the Winchester 92 in 44 Magnum for hunting. The 44 Magnum is capable of taking all game available in Michigan. My go too Rifle is a Winchester 94 in 30/30 . Not a lot of difference till you go out past 100 yards . If I was a young man . Just starting out in hunting and firearm collecting. I think I would start with a Henry 360 Buckhammer . You got a little more power & energy over the great 30/30 and you can use it in the straight wall cartridge states . God bless brother. Ron
I really would have been interested in some more info and comparisons to the ole .444 Marlin. I don't think it would have a case length short enough to qualify for what some other newer straight-walled cartridges do, but it has been around a long time and performs really well. Another outstanding cartridge (and perhaps the greatest handgun cartridge of all time, imo) to consider is the .41mag.
.444 with Leverevolution ammo is superior to everything he mentioned. Only limiting factor is some states that might limit cartridge length. But luckily my state doesn't have a maximum cartridge length for straight wall rounds.
When I want less recoil I shoot reduced loads with my 450 Marlin. Still plenty of power for deer out to about 150 yds. Very versatile round if you load em yourself.
I’m thankful that we don’t have those crazy cartridge restrictions here, but it is good that the industry looks out for those that do. I’ve also heard that variety is the spice of life. Great video!
Indeed. I have to say, however, that these new cartridges are a God-send for those of us in said restricted states; they beat the daylights out of slug guns, IMHO.
The cartridge restrictions are only the southern half of lower MICHIGAN for our state, the rest of the state is high powered rifle allowed. I have shot most of my bucks with a 7mm rem mag, but since I got my 450 I haven't taken it out in the woods
I live in Indiana and someone created a wild cat several years ago called the 358 Hoosier. It was basically a 35 Remington trimmed-down to 1.80" overall case length. Same bullets, same powder charge, same everything. We did not have a straight wall limitation but we did have an overall case length limitation. As of a few years ago, all centerfire rifles .243 diameter and larger but excluding a 50 BMG are allowed in Indiana.
That is only on private property if you are hunting on public land then you still have to use the limited cartages. I usually stick to my 500S&W magnum seems to work quite well
Great video. I will note that using the 450BM in an AR helps reduce the felt recoil thanks to the gas system of the rifle (this would apply to the 350/400 Legend also). My 450BM upper has performed wonderfully for me on whitetail over the past 6 years or so. The new 400 Legend looks interesting, but I still see no reason to change from my 450. Keep up the great work!
Just based on the numbers the 400 Legend looks like the sweet spot to me. Flatter shooting, more than adequate energy for deer at 200 yards, and manageable recoil.
Ron, I really enjoy listening to you explaining about different cartridges and their characteristics, but one thing many people fail to consider energy dissipation in the animal! A friend of mine and his son use .270 Winchesters for pig hunting and they're always complaining about having to spending 2 hours or so blood trailing a pig. I figured it out for them a couple times, but they just couldn't grasp the concept! When you shoot any animal the only use of bullet energy is when it's in the animal. From where the bullet leaves the animal to wherever the bullet finally stops is wasted energy. With the velocity his bullet is traveling, if the pig was 2 feet thick, the bullet would only spend 0.0017 seconds in the animal. That bullet isn't going to dissipate very much energy in that length of time! On the other hand, I use a .300 Blackout with a 110 grain bullet! I have never had a passthrough on a pig! The biggest one I've shot, so far, we estimatedher at 350 lbs or more. She dropped like a rock. The smallest was 80 lbs, and a broadside shot, he dropped where he was standing! All the pigs I've shot have been between 80 and 120 yards. My oldest son was here last month and we went out pig hunting. I callled in one boar and my sun shot it. The two of us couldn't pick it up, don't know what it weighed, but it was a 165 yard shot, and he was laying right there waiting for us!! This was the longest shot we've made on a pig. None of these were passthrough shots, which means every ounce of energy was utilized in the body of the pig! There must be something to this! I would like to know your thoughts on it!
When the .357 Magnum cartridge first came out back in the mid 1930s, one of the things Smith & Wesson did was take the 8 3/8" N-Frame revolver chambered for it on an elk hunt. The .357 magnum cartridge was pushing a 158-grain lead bullet at about 1,500 feet per second out of that 8 3/8" N-Frame, so the loads were a bit spicier back then than they are now, but they scored a clean hit and bagged an elk with minimal tracking. Given the number of deer that are ethically taken in the US every year with .357 magnum handguns, I think using that same cartridge out of a rifle is plenty adequate as long as you keep your cool, only take shots you know you can make, and use a projectile suitable to the task.
I am just very happy also for all the new choices for my 45/70 . It is a wonderful round now ...... like you said the science is there and I am very grateful!!
I really like my Marlin 41 Mag. 210 XTP at 1,900 fps and Sierra 170s at 2,200! I shot a forked horn (4pt Eastern) mule deer at 75 yards. One shot behind the shoulder did the trick.
I stand corrected, on my comments, I watched again! I will say that I’m impressed with the 350 Legend, I built two uppers in 350, and have been impressed with the little cartridge, since my stroke recoil is not good for me, and the AR with the 350 is very, very manageable! I do not think there has been a better deer caliber then a .35, very underrated, one of my favorite rifles is a 350 RemMag, if you reload, you could hunt North America with little issue!
Keep it up with the straightwalls. Even us hunting out in Western Washington State are digging the info! When I see all my deer at 30 yards or less and 350 legend in a single shot is a pure joy to reload (and shoot 9mm bullets through on range day to save a few bucks) videos like these make the 5pm beer taste that much better to cool off with. Keep it up Ron, you da man
RON, Home run. Your expanded coverage gives more ammo to future discussions at the range and deer camp. With number of deer Hunters dwindling, a cartridge that has acceptable impact for most recoil conscious and small frame folks, that does the deed at
Seriously the 38-55 Winchester is a great round and is also accepted in the "shotgun" states. It is also one of the best shooting straightwall rounds ever. It was also known as the 38-55 Ballard and was used in shooting competitions due to the light recoil and accuracy. It is available in Buffalo Boar Ammo for modern firearms and will definitely take out a deer or bear without issue.
As usual Ron this was an informative article. I would have added some things to it but in all, it was very good. One thing you passed up on is the 350, and 400 Legend cartridges as well as the 450 Bushmaster and 50 Beowulf were designed for AR 15 platform rifles. The majority of hunters using those cartridges use AR platform rifles, especially hog hunters. Also, AR platform rifles shoot softer than say most lever or bolt guns, and second-shot recovery is far less time-wise. One thing you didn't cover however is the availability of ammo. 450 Bushmaster is everywhere as is the 340 Legend, the rest is little to none as in the case of the 50 Beo and the 400 L, and the 458 Socom and 360 Buckhamer ammo almost don't exist. All in all the 450 BM is my favorite brush rifle and I live in Oregon, for hogs, it's the 6.8 SPC.
I would like your opinion on the 6.8 seens like is one of your favorites. On a 16.5 and 18 inch what the report would compare to ? I got this semi rural area that my shots would be no more than 200 yrds how would the report compare to a 30-30 , .243 or even a 6.5 Grendal ? I load 130 gr spitzers on the 30-30 and due Ok but that 6.8 is one that i would like to try. Ideally i would consider 130 grainers at a moderate velocity on the 6.8 to keep my favorite .270 bullets
Good episode Ron. I’ve got a couple of these cartridges in a range of files. My favorite happens to be the .450 Bushmaster shooting a 250 grain Hornady FTX bullet in a 22” barreled, Ruger American that I’ve put in a Magpul Hunter stock. It’s a woods whitetail killer for sure. I’ve taken a coyote right at 200 yards with it and several deer. Nice big hole and would channel but nothing I’ve taken with it this far has managed to run. Thanks for all the effort you put into your content Ron. Looking forward to the next one.
I live in Idaho, so not a straight wall restricted state, but my favorite straight wall is my .45 Colt. Mainly because of the variety of ammo I can shoot in it without reloading. I have a Rossi M92 16in carbine and a cartridge converted Remington reproduction 1858 "Sheriff" in .45 Colt. My "bottleneck" cartridge of choice is the 6.5x55mm Swedish.
Fellow Idahoan! You've hit the ideal cartridge with the all around Swede. I've got relatives that shot 45Colt out of .410 and ate when times were hard in prr Depression days.
Thanks for another informative video. It is always a surprise when numbers/facts violate traditions. Need those eye openers to make an informed decision.
I live my 357 for deer in Southern Michigan. I don't really have an opportunity for much more than 150 in the deer woods around here so the drop at 200 is a bit less than I deal with, but I've taken plenty with good, ethical shots. As a bonus, with 38's it's a great gun for teaching folks how to shoot. I've got a suppressor on it (the barrel was already threaded so why not) so there's nothing scary about it.
Based on personal and second hand experience I can confirm that the 350 legend is a wonderful deer cartridge out to 200 yards. I'm also very excited to try out the 400 legend once it comes out.
I've been using 350 Legend in my AR rifles and pistols for shooting Texas hogs for several years and it is a great effective little cartridge, mostly use 150 grain Deer Season XP ammo. Use a 450 Bushmaster chambered AR as well just not as often. People were wrong when they said Winchester made a "mistake" in their bullet size and that the cartridge would fail. The 400 Legend will probably be just as successful and I will build an AR rifle and pistol for shooting hogs. Now, if Winchester is smart they will figure how to get a lever gun to function reliably with the rimless 350, they could sell more than they could produce in my opinion, same goes for the 400 Legend. I think if Winchester doesn't produce a lever gun for their straight wall cartridges they may lose some sales to the 360 Buckhammer. Smith and Wesson and Magnum Research each make revolvers chambered in 350 Legend. The ability to have a bolt gun, single shot, pistol and an AR that all use the same ammo is a plus. Winchester could almost completely control the straight wall cartridge market if they produce a lever gun for them. Thanks for the video,
@@pitchforkpeasant6219 Luckily, I have never had an issue with any Winchester factory ammo. Deer Season XP in several calibers is some of my favorite ammo, has always performed really well on hogs and coyotes.
357 Super Mag (Max) is still one awesome round with plenty of choices in bullet selection up to or a little past 200 gr. With speeds from 1800 to 2500 depending on bullet selection and powder charges, this round can really get the job done for a straight wall.
Yeah my family had several pistols that used 357 max. Mainly because we had a Lee loader and we used it to load 357 max, magnum and 38 special. I am seriously looking into having a gunsmith modify a lever action to use 357 max.
Awesome Ron I got my 450 BM before the others came out, I leave the 308 in the safe now for scrub work, the bushy is a wicked rig for pigs and under, no tracking , so far , the shock drops them even with a not so good shot Thanku sir
The .45 blam, was made for a disabled veterans to go hunting for medium game. I used the .460 Smith & Wesson load data and cut a .284 Winchester off at the shoulder then rebated the rim to fit in the 6.5 Grendel bolt face. It's basically the same cartridge as .450 Bushmaster. It's about .100" longer. My classmate who partnered with me on this project now only has one useful hand. I use the .45-70 or .50ae here in Ohio. I can't see a deer more than 50 yards unless I'm on a farm or pasture where I live or hunt.
Great video Ron. It's a real shame the 375 Win isn't included in the states that require straight wall cartridges. It is no trick to push a 200 gr bullet to 2400-2450 fps from a 20" bbl.
@@sethtomsic8 Not safely! You can with the 459 Lott. I know as I have owned one since before you could buy a factory made one. I have chono'd it and know that form sure. The 458 Win rounds from the same gun, loaded to the top of safe pressure levels is 200 fps less.
I owned a .375 Winchester 30yrs ago. Traded it for a Ruger mini30. Wish I never had. That was a Major Mod. 94 lever action you rarely if ever see anymore. 😢🥴
@@l.garcia3525 When I bought mine several years back, it was as new in the box with all the hang tags etc still in the box. At that time, I started seeing quite a few in very nice condition, but only a year later, we weren't seeing any, any longer. Strange how things go. All I know is I really like the one I bought and wish I had got one sooner.
Nice job Ron! I run a Dave White custom CVA Apex in 357 Maximum. It shoots a CT 150gr Raptor ER bullet at 2450fps with very little recoil, sub MOA. It's legal for deer in Iowa and is an effective 300 yard rifle cartridge. This capable of much higher pressures in the 357 Max in the proper chamber/barrel than it is in revolvers.
As always, fantastic video Ron. In IL it’s single shot only. Got a CVA 45/70. Put a Leupold with 450 Bushmaster dial on it. Shooting 250 grain Hornady (when I can find it). Good to 200 yards. Unless you have a lot of experience (I don’t) then you shouldn’t be pushing it past that range. My son”s Savage 220 with 20 gauge Hornady or Rem/Fed tipped slugs with Leupold scope is the ultimate IL deer gun! But I’ve got a couple 45/70s and love that old cartridge! Have fun with it. Keep the videos coming Ron
I like the 325 FTX bullets in a 45-70. Unfortunately, when you Handloading, there is a fair amount of trimming to length from standard 45-70 bullets to being able to use the FTX bullets. Does not apply to the 160 FTX for the 30-30, tat one doesn't need trimming for the bullet to fit the chamber like the 45-70 does.
Great job on the vast comparisons Ron. I would have liked to see the .357 magnum numbers for a lever gun vs. a revolver, since I thought it to be closer to the 30-30. Also, I was surprised to see the .454 casual wasn’t much difference than the .44 magnum. Thanks Ron.
I picked up a 400 L Last year. mid season in Oh. absolutely love it.... recoil is low enough to see bullet impact (through scope) at 90 yds. The buck turned dead quartering to when i shot, i found the bullet under the hide on the opposite hip... as for group size sub 5/8" at 100 yds.
444 marlin is the best straight wall going, for any critter you would care to dispatch. Thompson encore rifle with a 26" straight bull barrel, 325 gr hardcast (18-22bh) gas check, at 2300+- will stop pretty much anything on the planet!!
I have a lever gun in 454. That thing is light and flat stomps within about 150 yards. It’s very handy and I am planning on taking a white tail with it this year. We shall see!
Not easy to find one, I didn’t even know they existed till a buddy of mine inherited one from his dad. We did find ammunition on midway USA for him so he could go out and enjoy it.
@@jaydunbar7538 they are still around but pretty hard to find. I know a couple older guys who bought them back in the day who swear by them. The only ammo I’ve seen is online though.
RON: as always, excellent video. I really LOVE that you do such a thorough comparison of a select group (in this case, the straight walls) of cartridges. Really puts things in proper perspective, without all he ammo company hype. Many thanks!!
I built a 450 Bushmaster AR and that's my hog gun now. My first hunt last November I fired 2 rounds and got 2 hogs. Both shots were a little over 100 yards using 300gr HP. Accuracy was really good, got them both in the ear. My son in law said that the flash from the 450 Bushmaster on the first hog which was right at dusk was very impressive LOL. A friend of mine has a 350 Legend AR and I like that round also. Great information
I run a 450 bushmaster in at platform for deer in Iowa. I load a 200gn. Barnes xpb on 41 gn. Of lil gun. It's an absolute dropper. Got a doe at 161 yards neck shot legs pulled up and she didn't move again
I really like my 450 bushmaster. I've had good luck with it .I hunt in alot of thick brush and it's nice to not have to worry about taking shots in the brush
I started handloading the 350 legend couple years ago. 22" barrel. 170gr barnes at 2450fps, barnes 180gr ttsx at 2300fps, 200gr barnes ttsx at 2200fps(.36 BC) 250gr at 1850fps. And still testing. Not to mention a 147gr fmj at over 2600fps. It's a very versatile cartridge. I like the 450 bushmaster for up front energy but for deer it's not needed, but very effective.
Your knowledge, and willingness to share it, is very appreciated! I've been a shooter and hunter for decades, and you always teach me something. Thank you!
458 win mag is becoming one of my fav rounds. So versatile with handloading. I have 300 gr at 2200 fps for a nice mild deer load. 400 gr at 2000 as well.
@@jasonlommen4769 it is mild compared to what it could be doing. 2500-2600 lol recoil is comfortable at 2200, just a very hot 45/70 but in a better fitting more accurate bolt gun lol i got a 400 gr at 2000 fps i also love
@@AlanVanEpps thats too much for what i use mine for. Just no need for that level of recoil imo. I’ve been over 2500 with 300 gr and it starts getting snappy
@@orr89rocz I just meant in my humble opinion, that that’s way too much cartridge for a deer unless you’re shooting it at 500 yards or better and by then the BC has taken a dump. I grew up hunting in Montana and we have some of the biggest game in the country and I never went above a .270 for deer, complete overkill otherwise.
Ron, you missed one of my favorites, the .444 Marlin. My first deer rifle was a Marlin 336 lever action and I knocked down my share of Whitetails with that piece.
Ron, forget the cartridge marketing. How bout a look at the old "Gould" bullet used in the 45-70. This truly is a legend of a cartridges and legend deer load.
Aaron, what do you mean by cartridge marketing? I'm detailing cartridge/bullet performance potential so viewers can better understand how all compare to one another against a well known benchmark like the 30-30. I include every extant straight wall cartridge I could think of, even many for which rifles are rarely, if at all, chambered anymore. I did not favor or recommend one round against all others. I guess you could say I am "marketing" all straight walled cartridges. Sorry, Aaron, I just don't understand your position.
I rebarreled and old Mauser action to 450bm and it's an absolute tack driver. It's a shoulder buster, but with a good compensator it's manageable. I've used it for deer as far as 150yrd so far and have never had an issue. All that said, my favorite part about strait wall cartridges is reloading.
I own a 450 bushmaster in a lightweight AR platform and I would never go into grizzly country without it. 250 grain projectiles going 2200 fps the perfect balance between heavy, fast, and manageable.
Just ran across this video. As a handgun hunter taking deer with a 44 mag and the 454 Casull, I believe you have the numbers switched between the two. Great content as always.
We don't have to use straight walked cartridges in Maine, but i still love them. The 450BM is just an incredibly efficient round for hunting out of the AR platform
I live in Oregon and only hunt with a bow but watching this is pretty informative. Oregon doesnt have restrictions on rifles for hunting so i feel back for you midwest boys.
Good video as always. Another aspect to consider with each cartridge/ bullet choice is the impact velocity to make the bullet function. The straight walls are plagued by running out of sufficient impact velocity down range to enable the bullet open as intended. There are some custom bullet makers out there producing bullets with lower velocity thresholds. If you find yourself trying to maximize the range of your straight wall cartridge, be mindful of your impact velocity in relation to the minimum threshold of the bullet you are using.
.375 Winchester. Such a handy and capable rifle to ease your way through the deer woods.
Straight wall cartridges. As far as a pistol cartridges. The 44 mag works wonderful on Deer. Better than it has any right to. Elmer Keith did a good job designing that round.
Don't forget smith wesson 460...the longest case length
Allowed .. 44 is so classic
I use the 265 for 444marlin, never failed me.
You said it best towards the end. People are belly aching about these new cartridges. Just be thankful that we have the opportunity to choose between all of these fine options.
Exactly. Don't like or want one of the new options? Don't buy one, and use what you like. I wish everything were that easy. 🙂
@@doctortabby - yup, we vote with our wallets.
@@doctortabbyammo companies are wasting their time and resources with this nonsense compared to making the usual calibers for CHEAPER
@@tubeguy4066 The problem is that I can't legally hunt with most of the "usual" calibers you would likely speak of, where I hunt. Take it up with my state legislature.
I bought a 350 legend during the virus in past years, and I use it for everything. The rifle was cheap, and the ammo is as well. I love mine
I love mine as well but as soon as it got popular the ammo price skyrocketed here in Texas. Great round for hogs.
@Jonathan Head that kinda sucks its still pretty reasonable here in Arkansas, but it has gone up
I've definitely been looking at the 350 legend rifle ✌️ seems to be a little more accurate than the 300 black out 👍
The 350 Legend is a winner and cheap ammo is widely available in Florida. It's highly popular in Ohio, a straight wall cartridge state. Bolt action rifles are cheap and accurate, and the round does not kick much. What more can you ask for?
I built me an AR STYLE RIFLE IN THE .350 legend and I love this gun!
Here in Ohio I love using my 45/70, but My daughters .357 mag is a handy dandy little rifle that works just as good at the ranges we hunt at. I have had deer run off a little ways with both. And some that dropped on the spot with both.
I'm a 45-70 guy myself. Absolutely love that round.
150 years old and still going. making a big comeback actually, its a lot more popular today than it was 10-20 years ago.
@@ChaotiX1indeed it has made quite the comeback. It's resurged popularity has really pushed manufacturers to design new lever guns. as well as redesign old models.
Surprisingly versatile round, stops the biggest bear in a scout rifle package that bush pilots swear by and can be used on mule deer down to whitetail etc.
I'm with ya on that one.
Everyone of my buddies that shoot a 45-70 have played with my .350L at 200 yards with 170gr pills and are quickly realizing that lil .350 is something pretty special.
Almost zero recoil and shooting 1.5 inch groups at 200 yards all day...
That 350L in such a light, short, crazy accurate rife is hard to beat.
They quickly realized that 45-70 with rainbow trajectory in a 9lb gun isn't where it's at at all !!!
I choose to hunt with 450 Bushmaster when I am in thick woods in Montana. Never had to track a deer or a bear. I don't use the 450 for hunting open country.
Ron Spomer comes through again with common sense gun and ammunition information we can all use. Thanks, Ron. 👍🏽
What would 460 in encore energy at 200yds
Thank you, Ron.
@@danhughes3626 Ron Spomer really shorted the 460 S&W, with hot ammo from Underwood, Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, etc or handloads the 460 is the power house of any of the straight wall cartridges he mentioned and with a 1.8" case length and 45 cal bullet it fits the straight wall restrictions. Underwood has a load that produces 2,886 ft.lbs of ME in a pistol barrel, if that load was put in a T/C Encore with a 26" barrel it would be a seriously heavy hitter running neck and neck with hot 45-70 govt loads. I did a longer comment on this video with even more details about the 460 if you are interested.
@@chrisdaniel1339 I want to see it
Definitely hard to argue with raw numbers.
I'm a 308 guy and don't live in a State that has requirements of just straight wall cartridges only, but I do enjoy grabbing my daughter's 350 legend and sitting in the stand with it! I had my doubts bout it, but it has proven many times to be very good choice for deer medicine in SC! So for a daddy's gun I'm rooting for the new 400 legend!
Like a 30-30 for the AR. If I didn't already have a marlin 336 I'd get the 350 legend
As an IL deer hunter, I love the attention you've given to these new straight wall cartridges. But since they're replacing slug guns for us, I would have loved to see a comparison to 12 & 20 ga slugs.
It would be fun to see. However, I switched from my 870 slug gun, using the lightfield hybrid slugs to using the 350 legend in 2019, and I will never look back.
Ah! Now there is a good point . And which slugs are they all the same?
I don't think many would like to compare their center fire straight wall of choice against the remington accutip bonded slug.
Except it isn't actually available I've been trying to get some for two yrs.
@@JJ-qy8xu For years, I used a Savage 220 slug gun, shooting the Remington 3" AccuTip, and it was dynamite on deer. Now, I hunt in a county that allows rifles, and I use a .375 Win. in the brush and a .308 for everywhere else. Getting bullets for the .375 is the problem, but I did locate a source for them. I don't yet know how well they will shoot out of my M94.
Slugs out of a 12ga can take a charging grizzly down if you hit it in the chest that 450 bushmaster will need a nice shot to the heart lung area or just magdump your ar into its chest
I took a doe late season this past January(illinois 1st rifle season ever) 200 yards best performance yet. Also took a 10pt with a ar pistol opening day and my brother did. Both at 150 yards no tracking required. 350 legend handloads are the best. Can't say much for factory.
I had the 444 years ago.. fantastic deer rifle.. every deer I shot never took a step... I loved it way more then the 06 .. 270 ect I had.. the 444 was the 1st rifle I would grab
444 is what I put my vote to. It's a handloaders dream, and based on capability is the best all around North American straight wall cartridge.
With a case length of 2.225 it's not an option for some straight wall only states due to length restrictions.
@@kdmag88 Who needs those states and their non-sensical rules.
@KDMag 88 yeah but sure hammers deer.. shot many with mine.. none took a step.. shot a doe in the chest directly facing me at 40 yards... came out her butt...I loaded the 240 gr xtp... it was a deer killer
@@kdmag88 yes it is. Not all states have a length limit on straight walls, Ohio being an example.
Don't assume. At least take the bare minimum to look up what you are commenting on, or in the case of the nature of your comment reach out to the original poster to find out what context he is making his comment under first.
The reason for not allowing rifles in 'shotgun only' area in Michigan is just because of the number of people who hunt deer, not the range of the rifle. We can't use a .30-06 for deer, but it is legal for squirrels. Lawmakers do not know guns or range or hunting.
Possibly the original idea was that because a shotgun has much shorter range than a rifle (even if you fire slugs) you are a) less likely to get a deer because you have to sneak up on it and b) less likely to accidentally hit someone downrange through the foliage, as the projectile will drop more.
wow! never knew this! you'd think they'd be educated.
@@nerd1000ify I do believe they thought they were making deer hunting safer in the more populated area of Michigan. There are many more deer hunters than squirrel hunters, and hopefully most squirrel hunters wouldn't hunt with a rifle. Also have to factor in the alcohol when considering deer camps.
@@rodneyharouff5739 Best to assume nothing of lawmakers, especially knowledge of the real world.
During the great depression the federal government went around killing pigs because lawmakers thought people would be better off with beef than pork. A bill to reduce the gestation period of cows almost made it to the floor.
No, you can’t use a 30-06 for squirrels in Michigan.
The 460SW from a TC encore 16" is objectively the best of the bunch, but it goes unmentioned
I agree wholeheartedly
Love my Henry Big Boy .357. Here in Ohio it’s pretty easy to get within 125 yards of anything you need to shoot, so it is the one I take into the woods every time!
For all of North America, the 444 is probably the best cartridge of the staightwalls. If you hunt in eastern states in wooded areas or keeping your shots within 150 yards a lever action 44 magnum is the best option.
if you dont break all the blood vessels in your head,
@@alonzahanks1182 recoil impulse from the 444 isn't strong enough to do that. Unless you are seconds away from an aneurysm anyway.
@@patrickhenry236 I was blowing up boulders with realy big slugs and having fun.
with a marlin 444
but had to keep going because we were building rock walls out of them
After 80 rounds my nose wouldnt stop bleeding
at 60 i felt like somebody was hitting me with a base ball bat
I made my dad buy a muzzle brake
@@alonzahanks1182 that's not the 444's fault. That one's on you. There is a kid where I work who has kleenex hanging out his nose every other day because he gets nose bleeds during the spring and summer even if he sits still in a chair. I've been shooting the 444 for over 20 years, and have never bled from doing so.
That was your own body having an issue, not the rifle.
I agree. I think the trip4 is the finest lever action round ever produced. It is an all around great caliber capable of taking any and all North American game and would be a reasonable option in Africa, too, if loaded with the proper bullet. I prefer the shorter range weapons. I am not in favor of the hunter shooting game at extreme ranges. To me, that is not hunting. I am not judging long range shooters, I just think hunting is a short range endeavor requiring a different skill from that of doping your equipment/data to hit game at 700 yards.
I have a Ruger American Ranch in .450 Bushmaster topped with a Burris Compact 2x7x32mm scope. It's a 1 MOA rifle with Hornady Black 250 grain bullets. It's my truck / camp / drift boat rifle in bear territory. It's a great combo and very compact. I was very impressed with the .450 bullet accuracy with factory ammo.
I second this. I have the exact same rifle (with Leupold scope) and mine is a total tack driver as well. Surprisingly accurate to be honest!
Load your own you can dial that recoil down a bit. Testing pure zinc projectiles since softer and cheaper than copper. Nice using one bullet mould for pistol and rifle
I have the same setup, except a leupold as well. Tack driver! Have shot several animals with it and only had to track one buck because it went into thick brush. They either drop where they stand, or crash about 50 yards or less from where they were shot.
Do you get much fouling with pure zinc bullets? It's got such a low boiling point that I'd expect a little zinc to boil from the bottom of the bullet and deposit in the barrel when fired.
I've got a 20 inch barrel Bushmaster AR in 450 Bushmaster and its absolutely amazing. I shoot it at ranges up 250 yards and its performance for me has been perfect. Absolutely hammers game. Thanks Ron for another great video.
100% agreement! Mine shoots so well I wouldn’t consider another caliber.
getting one
I just bought one. I took it to the range and it kicks like a mule. After I finetune my scope, I think it will be a very nice addition to the collection.
Ill light load the 450 for target shooting. Test different projectiles on different materials too. Pure zinc is a bitch to mould but expands a bit on steel and easier on the barrel than copper. Just under an inch on backside of a 20 lb propane can😊
I have an SBR and plan to hunt with a 10.5” barrel and a form 1 can. Been hunting with 6.5 Grendel and it does the job but it lacks in the umph department and doesn’t hit with any great authority. I found 9 boxes of 450 bushmaster on clearance at Walmart and bought 80 rounds for under $100. Time to buy an AR upper. 😂
I have the 350 legend and the 450 bushmaster I use them for deer hunting in Maine. And In my opinion 100% 350 legend fills the role of that old Thirty Thirty Which is taken more dear in the United States probably than any other Rifle . I absolutely love watching your videos it's great to be able to learn and have knowledge of these things. Keep up a good work
I built a 350 legend AR. I was honestly shocked how limited the recoil was and it feeds flawlessly. I really like the straight wall stuff in that 100 yard mark.
Those setups have been becoming popular in Texas for hog culling.
Same here! This thing is a sewing machine smooth, plenty of knock-down for pigs, more than enough for White-tail with fast dispatch inside 200 yards. I'm very pleased with the round.
I have no problem reaching out to 200 with my 350L AR build, knocks the absolute snot outta hogs.
@@jordanhicks5131 hammer bullets made a 130g option I bet just the velocity increase will really help at 200 yards.
@@jordanhicks5131 Keep knocking those hogs down.
For 357 mag/max the numbers were handgun numbers. In a rifle both get a lot closer to 30-30, neither gets there, but much more reasonable. 44 gets similar benefits of too.
Glad to see you finally give some love to the .450 Bushmaster. I’ve been impressed by its performance since I’ve been hunting with mine and was able to get it in the AR platform which I’m a fan of. 1/2” groups at 100. Tons of energy at 100-150 yards which is the max distance I hunt in Mid Michigan. Thanks again for finally including it in the straight wall debate. I knew it would perform well.
Shot a buck with one broadside and it ruptured the diaphragm even though I took a good dbl lung shot towards the shoulder. Ended up with a nasty gutting job and had to trim a bunch of tainted meat by the time I got it out of the woods. It was my last deer with a .450 bushmaster. Went back to what wasn't broken from before.
@@adksport4023 I took a big doe last year. 155 lbs dressed. 150 yards pass through. Heart, liver shredded. Brisket was mush. 🤷🏽♂️
I ahot a nice buck with my 20 inch barrel ar 450 bushmaster… was a high hit broke the back and broke the sternum and ribs .. made a 10 inch hole across the top 😳 450 is a 45/70 in a ar platform
I’ve had 30-06 turn deer insides into jelly with the Nosler Ballistic tip 150 grain bullets. It’s all about bullet placement. But I think Hornady needs to think about changing the design of their 250 grain FTXs. They are not bonded and the jacket is a shade too thin. The bullets shed their jackets too quickly and dump their energy too quickly.
But if you reload, you can find a better bullet for deer and elk.
@@TexasSheepdawg21that is the reason I am not shooting hornady out of my 450 this year trying out the barnse tsx and Winchester xp
Thanks for the excellent comparison. I just picked up a 450 Bushmaster but not for the usual reasons. I live in the northern plains of MT where most of my shots at deer are 250-500yds. I use a 270WSM for that. I was looking to find a pistol caliber carbine in 45 cal. After much research I decided to go with the Bushmaster. A lot more power and energy than the 45acp and actually cheaper to build in a AR platform than the 45acp.
That's why a chose the 454 Casull.
A Puma lever action & a Ruger or Freedom Arms revolver.
Nice to have one bullet mould for handgun and rifle rounds. Can mould zinc too for any anti lead laws which is cheaper and easier on your barrel than copper is. Will still expand some depending on velocity too. Saeco #945. Zinc is a bitch to size but doable. 45acp non gas checked can still send em 850 plus fps. Gas checked and lubed for 450B. 😊
Another great video Ron, I hunt Northern Minnesota, thick woods. I have a 30-30, 270 and a couple other deer rifles. Two years ago I built a 450 Bushmaster AR fantastic gun just to noisy racking in that first round so I bought a Ruger bolt action 450 Bushmaster. Have crushed 2 deer with them, this past year a 10 pt 217 pound buck, dressed out and after hanging for 5 days. My new favorite woods gun.
You sir are still my favorite gun commentator to watch, Keep them coming sir! Love listening to you, Peace and Grace!
Many thanks, Zechnar.
45-70 getting my vote , but realistically the 38-55/375 Winchester is the more practical rifle , and the 44mag is also a superior utility cartridge
Like he said thought that’s a bench mark of performance, it’s not legal for the places that are limited to straight wall cartridges.
@@jaydunbar7538
They should all be legal in states that only have the straight wall restriction. Not every jurisdiction has the length limitation afaik.
@@jaydunbar7538 Peoples fault for voting in people with rules restricting their hunting firearms
@@cbsbass4142the people who hunt aren’t the people who vote to restrict access to hunting or firearms. They just happen to live in the same state as urban know nothings who vote in droves on issues they don’t understand.
As always Ron .
You put out great videos and good information.
I'm in Michigan and have been a Handgun 44 Magnum hunter for the last 20+ Years .
I have now moved to the Winchester 92 in 44 Magnum for hunting.
The 44 Magnum is capable of taking all game available in Michigan.
My go too Rifle is a Winchester 94 in 30/30 .
Not a lot of difference till you go out past 100 yards .
If I was a young man .
Just starting out in hunting and firearm collecting.
I think I would start with a Henry 360 Buckhammer .
You got a little more power & energy over the great 30/30 and you can use it in the straight wall cartridge states .
God bless brother.
Ron
i love that you know what point blank actually means most people think it means right up close.
I really would have been interested in some more info and comparisons to the ole .444 Marlin. I don't think it would have a case length short enough to qualify for what some other newer straight-walled cartridges do, but it has been around a long time and performs really well. Another outstanding cartridge (and perhaps the greatest handgun cartridge of all time, imo) to consider is the .41mag.
The 444 wins. Its flatter than a 45-70. With the right bullet its unbeatable.👍
I love my .444. Leverevolution 265 gr load is a deer killer. Hopefully, we'll be able to find more soon.
.444 with Leverevolution ammo is superior to everything he mentioned. Only limiting factor is some states that might limit cartridge length. But luckily my state doesn't have a maximum cartridge length for straight wall rounds.
The 444 is really limited in bullet selection
@@danapicray9040mould your own bullets
This was pure gold for a ballistics nerd like me. Thanks Ron!
When I want less recoil I shoot reduced loads with my 450 Marlin. Still plenty of power for deer out to about 150 yds. Very versatile round if you load em yourself.
I’m thankful that we don’t have those crazy cartridge restrictions here, but it is good that the industry looks out for those that do. I’ve also heard that variety is the spice of life. Great video!
Indeed. I have to say, however, that these new cartridges are a God-send for those of us in said restricted states; they beat the daylights out of slug guns, IMHO.
The cartridge restrictions are only the southern half of lower MICHIGAN for our state, the rest of the state is high powered rifle allowed. I have shot most of my bucks with a 7mm rem mag, but since I got my 450 I haven't taken it out in the woods
I live in Indiana and someone created a wild cat several years ago called the 358 Hoosier. It was basically a 35 Remington trimmed-down to 1.80" overall case length. Same bullets, same powder charge, same everything. We did not have a straight wall limitation but we did have an overall case length limitation. As of a few years ago, all centerfire rifles .243 diameter and larger but excluding a 50 BMG are allowed in Indiana.
Yes .243 and up for private land, but we still have other limitations on public land. That's why I use a .50Beowulf or .44mag.
That is only on private property if you are hunting on public land then you still have to use the limited cartages. I usually stick to my 500S&W magnum seems to work quite well
.357 handgun for 50 yards and rifle for 100 in S.Indiana
Great video. I will note that using the 450BM in an AR helps reduce the felt recoil thanks to the gas system of the rifle (this would apply to the 350/400 Legend also). My 450BM upper has performed wonderfully for me on whitetail over the past 6 years or so. The new 400 Legend looks interesting, but I still see no reason to change from my 450. Keep up the great work!
Just based on the numbers the 400 Legend looks like the sweet spot to me. Flatter shooting, more than adequate energy for deer at 200 yards, and manageable recoil.
Ron, I really enjoy listening to you explaining about different cartridges and their characteristics, but one thing many people fail to consider energy dissipation in the animal! A friend of mine and his son use .270 Winchesters for pig hunting and they're always complaining about having to spending 2 hours or so blood trailing a pig. I figured it out for them a couple times, but they just couldn't grasp the concept! When you shoot any animal the only use of bullet energy is when it's in the animal. From where the bullet leaves the animal to wherever the bullet finally stops is wasted energy. With the velocity his bullet is traveling, if the pig was 2 feet thick, the bullet would only spend 0.0017 seconds in the animal. That bullet isn't going to dissipate very much energy in that length of time!
On the other hand, I use a .300 Blackout with a 110 grain bullet! I have never had a passthrough on a pig! The biggest one I've shot, so far, we estimatedher at 350 lbs or more. She dropped like a rock. The smallest was 80 lbs, and a broadside shot, he dropped where he was standing! All the pigs I've shot have been between 80 and 120 yards.
My oldest son was here last month and we went out pig hunting. I callled in one boar and my sun shot it. The two of us couldn't pick it up, don't know what it weighed, but it was a 165 yard shot, and he was laying right there waiting for us!!
This was the longest shot we've made on a pig.
None of these were passthrough shots, which means every ounce of energy was utilized in the body of the pig!
There must be something to this! I would like to know your thoughts on it!
When the .357 Magnum cartridge first came out back in the mid 1930s, one of the things Smith & Wesson did was take the 8 3/8" N-Frame revolver chambered for it on an elk hunt. The .357 magnum cartridge was pushing a 158-grain lead bullet at about 1,500 feet per second out of that 8 3/8" N-Frame, so the loads were a bit spicier back then than they are now, but they scored a clean hit and bagged an elk with minimal tracking.
Given the number of deer that are ethically taken in the US every year with .357 magnum handguns, I think using that same cartridge out of a rifle is plenty adequate as long as you keep your cool, only take shots you know you can make, and use a projectile suitable to the task.
I am just very happy also for all the new choices for my 45/70 . It is a wonderful round now ...... like you said the science is there and I am very grateful!!
I really like my Marlin 41 Mag. 210 XTP at 1,900 fps and Sierra 170s at 2,200! I shot a forked horn (4pt Eastern) mule deer at 75 yards. One shot behind the shoulder did the trick.
I stand corrected, on my comments, I watched again! I will say that I’m impressed with the 350 Legend, I built two uppers in 350, and have been impressed with the little cartridge, since my stroke recoil is not good for me, and the AR with the 350 is very, very manageable!
I do not think there has been a better deer caliber then a .35, very underrated, one of my favorite rifles is a 350 RemMag, if you reload, you could hunt North America with little issue!
Keep it up with the straightwalls. Even us hunting out in Western Washington State are digging the info! When I see all my deer at 30 yards or less and 350 legend in a single shot is a pure joy to reload (and shoot 9mm bullets through on range day to save a few bucks) videos like these make the 5pm beer taste that much better to cool off with. Keep it up Ron, you da man
Great Video, Thank You for posting the Charts also. I was wishing you had the .45 Colt just to see what it compares too. Thanks again.👍👍
RON, Home run. Your expanded coverage gives more ammo to future discussions at the range and deer camp. With number of deer Hunters dwindling, a cartridge that has acceptable impact for most recoil conscious and small frame folks, that does the deed at
Seriously the 38-55 Winchester is a great round and is also accepted in the "shotgun" states. It is also one of the best shooting straightwall rounds ever. It was also known as the 38-55 Ballard and was used in shooting competitions due to the light recoil and accuracy. It is available in Buffalo Boar Ammo for modern firearms and will definitely take out a deer or bear without issue.
My old Winchester is a 381 bore so I have to cast and hand load.
Isn’t this cartridge over the legal length of 1.8” allowed in the “shotgun “ states?
@the41shootist it is in Michigan but it seems like some states included it and the 45/70gov
Along with the more modern, and ever-so-slightly more potent 375 Winchester.
It is and this not allowed in good ol’ Michigan -yea!
Love my 450 Bushmaster for northern Mn woods deer hunting
Me too, greetings from Michigan.
As usual Ron this was an informative article. I would have added some things to it but in all, it was very good. One thing you passed up on is the 350, and 400 Legend cartridges as well as the 450 Bushmaster and 50 Beowulf were designed for AR 15 platform rifles. The majority of hunters using those cartridges use AR platform rifles, especially hog hunters. Also, AR platform rifles shoot softer than say most lever or bolt guns, and second-shot recovery is far less time-wise. One thing you didn't cover however is the availability of ammo. 450 Bushmaster is everywhere as is the 340 Legend, the rest is little to none as in the case of the 50 Beo and the 400 L, and the 458 Socom and 360 Buckhamer ammo almost don't exist. All in all the 450 BM is my favorite brush rifle and I live in Oregon, for hogs, it's the 6.8 SPC.
I would like your opinion on the 6.8 seens like is one of your favorites.
On a 16.5 and 18 inch what the report would compare to ? I got this semi rural area that my shots would be no more than 200 yrds how would the report compare to a 30-30 , .243 or even a 6.5 Grendal ?
I load 130 gr spitzers on the 30-30 and due Ok but that 6.8 is one that i would like to try.
Ideally i would consider 130 grainers at a moderate velocity on the 6.8 to keep my favorite .270 bullets
Good episode Ron. I’ve got a couple of these cartridges in a range of files. My favorite happens to be the .450 Bushmaster shooting a 250 grain Hornady FTX bullet in a 22” barreled, Ruger American that I’ve put in a Magpul Hunter stock. It’s a woods whitetail killer for sure. I’ve taken a coyote right at 200 yards with it and several deer. Nice big hole and would channel but nothing I’ve taken with it this far has managed to run. Thanks for all the effort you put into your content Ron. Looking forward to the next one.
Thanks Magnum.
Great video as usual. I’ve been using the 450 bm for a few years now in an AR-platform. Packs a lot if punch!!
Thanks Ron, very informative
I live in Idaho, so not a straight wall restricted state, but my favorite straight wall is my .45 Colt. Mainly because of the variety of ammo I can shoot in it without reloading. I have a Rossi M92 16in carbine and a cartridge converted Remington reproduction 1858 "Sheriff" in .45 Colt. My "bottleneck" cartridge of choice is the 6.5x55mm Swedish.
Fellow Idahoan! You've hit the ideal cartridge with the all around Swede. I've got relatives that shot 45Colt out of .410 and ate when times were hard in prr Depression days.
My son has a rossi rifle in 45 colt I think and he loves it.
If I could only have one rifle it would be chambered in 6.5x55, The Swedes designed a great all around cartridge
1894 marlin Cb 45 colt works great for 50/75 yards, especially when loaded with 20gr of 2400, and a 255 gr SWC
I’m in the 450BM camp in my AR but I’d love to see the 41 magnum get some love as I cary that as my backup hunting handgun.
Thanks for another informative video. It is always a surprise when numbers/facts violate traditions. Need those eye openers to make an informed decision.
Love my 450 bushmaster..got goats, huge deer and elk. About 14 hogs for farmers in Texas and Mo.. and got deer at 360 yards.
I live my 357 for deer in Southern Michigan. I don't really have an opportunity for much more than 150 in the deer woods around here so the drop at 200 is a bit less than I deal with, but I've taken plenty with good, ethical shots. As a bonus, with 38's it's a great gun for teaching folks how to shoot. I've got a suppressor on it (the barrel was already threaded so why not) so there's nothing scary about it.
Gotta love the .450 Bushmaster.
Based on personal and second hand experience I can confirm that the 350 legend is a wonderful deer cartridge out to 200 yards. I'm also very excited to try out the 400 legend once it comes out.
I can second that the 350 does a great job.
I've been using 350 Legend in my AR rifles and pistols for shooting Texas hogs for several years and it is a great effective little cartridge, mostly use 150 grain Deer Season XP ammo. Use a 450 Bushmaster chambered AR as well just not as often. People were wrong when they said Winchester made a "mistake" in their bullet size and that the cartridge would fail. The 400 Legend will probably be just as successful and I will build an AR rifle and pistol for shooting hogs. Now, if Winchester is smart they will figure how to get a lever gun to function reliably with the rimless 350, they could sell more than they could produce in my opinion, same goes for the 400 Legend. I think if Winchester doesn't produce a lever gun for their straight wall cartridges they may lose some sales to the 360 Buckhammer. Smith and Wesson and Magnum Research each make revolvers chambered in 350 Legend. The ability to have a bolt gun, single shot, pistol and an AR that all use the same ammo is a plus. Winchester could almost completely control the straight wall cartridge market if they produce a lever gun for them. Thanks for the video,
Hate Winchester brass though. Have had case mouth splits in factory ammo. I mean, really?
@@pitchforkpeasant6219 Luckily, I have never had an issue with any Winchester factory ammo. Deer Season XP in several calibers is some of my favorite ammo, has always performed really well on hogs and coyotes.
Just brilliant.. 450 Bushmaster is an epic round... I use it in my AR and my Savage Scout 110
357 Super Mag (Max) is still one awesome round with plenty of choices in bullet selection up to or a little past 200 gr. With speeds from 1800 to 2500 depending on bullet selection and powder charges, this round can really get the job done for a straight wall.
Yeah my family had several pistols that used 357 max. Mainly because we had a Lee loader and we used it to load 357 max, magnum and 38 special. I am seriously looking into having a gunsmith modify a lever action to use 357 max.
Obsolete cartridge, almost no one makes factory ammo and only one or two people still make guns in the caliber.
357 maximum is dead and gone
@@RUBIZEN That would be a nice lever gun.
Almost no one makes factory ammo? Please point me to anyone making ammo or just brass.
@@blackout9814starline brass makes and sells it
Really enjoyed the longer in depth video
Excellent job on analyzing these cartridges
I think 350 400 and 458 bushmaster, are very popular or will because of AR use in hunting
There is no 458 Bushmaster there's a 450 Bushmaster and a 458 socom they're different rounds
@@ThorrRA3793 fat fingers
Awesome Ron
I got my 450 BM before the others came out, I leave the 308 in the safe now for scrub work, the bushy is a wicked rig for pigs and under, no tracking , so far , the shock drops them even with a not so good shot
Thanku sir
Thank you Ron for the information. Always valuable.
The .45 blam, was made for a disabled veterans to go hunting for medium game. I used the .460 Smith & Wesson load data and cut a .284 Winchester off at the shoulder then rebated the rim to fit in the 6.5 Grendel bolt face. It's basically the same cartridge as .450 Bushmaster. It's about .100" longer. My classmate who partnered with me on this project now only has one useful hand.
I use the .45-70 or .50ae here in Ohio. I can't see a deer more than 50 yards unless I'm on a farm or pasture where I live or hunt.
Great video Ron. It's a real shame the 375 Win isn't included in the states that require straight wall cartridges. It is no trick to push a 200 gr bullet to 2400-2450 fps from a 20" bbl.
I was thinking the same
Or with a 458 win you can get a 500 grain projectile going 2300 fps
@@sethtomsic8 Not safely! You can with the 459 Lott. I know as I have owned one since before you could buy a factory made one. I have chono'd it and know that form sure. The 458 Win rounds from the same gun, loaded to the top of safe pressure levels is 200 fps less.
I owned a .375 Winchester 30yrs ago. Traded it for a Ruger mini30. Wish I never had. That was a Major Mod. 94 lever action you rarely if ever see anymore. 😢🥴
@@l.garcia3525 When I bought mine several years back, it was as new in the box with all the hang tags etc still in the box. At that time, I started seeing quite a few in very nice condition, but only a year later, we weren't seeing any, any longer. Strange how things go. All I know is I really like the one I bought and wish I had got one sooner.
Nice job Ron! I run a Dave White custom CVA Apex in 357 Maximum. It shoots a CT 150gr Raptor ER bullet at 2450fps with very little recoil, sub MOA. It's legal for deer in Iowa and is an effective 300 yard rifle cartridge. This capable of much higher pressures in the 357 Max in the proper chamber/barrel than it is in revolvers.
As always, fantastic video Ron. In IL it’s single shot only. Got a CVA 45/70. Put a Leupold with 450 Bushmaster dial on it. Shooting 250 grain Hornady (when I can find it). Good to 200 yards. Unless you have a lot of experience (I don’t) then you shouldn’t be pushing it past that range. My son”s Savage 220 with 20 gauge Hornady or Rem/Fed tipped slugs with Leupold scope is the ultimate IL deer gun! But I’ve got a couple 45/70s and love that old cartridge! Have fun with it. Keep the videos coming Ron
I like the 325 FTX bullets in a 45-70. Unfortunately, when you Handloading, there is a fair amount of trimming to length from standard 45-70 bullets to being able to use the FTX bullets. Does not apply to the 160 FTX for the 30-30, tat one doesn't need trimming for the bullet to fit the chamber like the 45-70 does.
Great comparison on all the cartridges... Thank you!
Great job on the vast comparisons Ron. I would have liked to see the .357 magnum numbers for a lever gun vs. a revolver, since I thought it to be closer to the 30-30. Also, I was surprised to see the .454 casual wasn’t much difference than the .44 magnum. Thanks Ron.
Look in the ammo rifle section, not pistol it is listed differently.
I picked up a 400 L Last year. mid season in Oh. absolutely love it.... recoil is low enough to see bullet impact (through scope) at 90 yds. The buck turned dead quartering to when i shot, i found the bullet under the hide on the opposite hip... as for group size sub 5/8" at 100 yds.
Marlin .444 gotta be top 5
444 marlin is the best straight wall going, for any critter you would care to dispatch. Thompson encore rifle with a 26" straight bull barrel, 325 gr hardcast (18-22bh) gas check, at 2300+- will stop pretty much anything on the planet!!
You can hand load the 444 from mild to wild
Great gun . My dad uses it for deer and black bear .
yep
I agree! The 444 is one of the best and most versatile.
I have a lever gun in 454. That thing is light and flat stomps within about 150 yards. It’s very handy and I am planning on taking a white tail with it this year. We shall see!
Agreed, does what the other cartridges mentioned at 60,000 psi in a more compact round!
Ron, the 460 S&W is NOT a .458 projectile like the 45-70, its a .452 just like the 45 Long Colt and 45 ACP!
Or maybe you are correct for modern guns/ammo, I guess bore sizes have changed or standardized over the years.
Thank you Ron. Absolutely concise, informational and no BS muchly appreciated. Thanks again.
Do one with the .41 magnum if you find the time. I’m curious of the numbers vs the other magnum Cartriges
Not easy to find one, I didn’t even know they existed till a buddy of mine inherited one from his dad. We did find ammunition on midway USA for him so he could go out and enjoy it.
@@jaydunbar7538 they are still around but pretty hard to find. I know a couple older guys who bought them back in the day who swear by them. The only ammo I’ve seen is online though.
Not sure if you are interested but Henry makes a Lever action in 41 magnum
I wish you would look more into 458 socom. Yes, it's not straight-walled, but in Indiana (where I live) it's legally considered one.
RON: as always, excellent video. I really LOVE that you do such a thorough comparison of a select group (in this case, the straight walls) of cartridges. Really puts things in proper perspective, without all he ammo company hype. Many thanks!!
I built a 450 Bushmaster AR and that's my hog gun now. My first hunt last November I fired 2 rounds and got 2 hogs. Both shots were a little over 100 yards using 300gr HP. Accuracy was really good, got them both in the ear. My son in law said that the flash from the 450 Bushmaster on the first hog which was right at dusk was very impressive LOL. A friend of mine has a 350 Legend AR and I like that round also. Great information
I run a 450 bushmaster in at platform for deer in Iowa. I load a 200gn. Barnes xpb on 41 gn. Of lil gun. It's an absolute dropper. Got a doe at 161 yards neck shot legs pulled up and she didn't move again
I really like my 450 bushmaster. I've had good luck with it .I hunt in alot of thick brush and it's nice to not have to worry about taking shots in the brush
I started handloading the 350 legend couple years ago. 22" barrel. 170gr barnes at 2450fps, barnes 180gr ttsx at 2300fps, 200gr barnes ttsx at 2200fps(.36 BC) 250gr at 1850fps. And still testing. Not to mention a 147gr fmj at over 2600fps. It's a very versatile cartridge. I like the 450 bushmaster for up front energy but for deer it's not needed, but very effective.
How did you get 250 gr to go 1850fps? I have to try that
Your knowledge, and willingness to share it, is very appreciated! I've been a shooter and hunter for decades, and you always teach me something. Thank you!
458 win mag is becoming one of my fav rounds. So versatile with handloading. I have 300 gr at 2200 fps for a nice mild deer load. 400 gr at 2000 as well.
300gr@2200 fps for a nice mild deer round…😂 ok 🤪
My 458 is running 2500 FPS with 325 gr bullets.
@@jasonlommen4769 it is mild compared to what it could be doing. 2500-2600 lol recoil is comfortable at 2200, just a very hot 45/70 but in a better fitting more accurate bolt gun lol i got a 400 gr at 2000 fps i also love
@@AlanVanEpps thats too much for what i use mine for. Just no need for that level of recoil imo. I’ve been over 2500 with 300 gr and it starts getting snappy
@@orr89rocz
I just meant in my humble opinion, that that’s way too much cartridge for a deer unless you’re shooting it at 500 yards or better and by then the BC has taken a dump. I grew up hunting in Montana and we have some of the biggest game in the country and I never went above a .270 for deer, complete overkill otherwise.
G'day from Aus., the .444 Marlin needs an honourable mention, basically a semi rimmed staight wall mauser case, always a pleasure
👂👀😁👍🍻
Ron, you missed one of my favorites, the .444 Marlin. My first deer rifle was a Marlin 336 lever action and I knocked down my share of Whitetails with that piece.
What an excellent presentation - very informative with a great delivery style
Ron, here in Indiana, there's one you may or do not know about. It's called the 358 Hoosier. Custom-made bottleneck cartilage. But it is legal here.
Ron, forget the cartridge marketing. How bout a look at the old "Gould" bullet used in the 45-70. This truly is a legend of a cartridges and legend deer load.
Aaron, what do you mean by cartridge marketing? I'm detailing cartridge/bullet performance potential so viewers can better understand how all compare to one another against a well known benchmark like the 30-30. I include every extant straight wall cartridge I could think of, even many for which rifles are rarely, if at all, chambered anymore. I did not favor or recommend one round against all others. I guess you could say I am "marketing" all straight walled cartridges. Sorry, Aaron, I just don't understand your position.
The 450 bushmaster's recoil is tamed very well in a AR with extra heavy buffer spring and H3 buffer.
I rebarreled and old Mauser action to 450bm and it's an absolute tack driver. It's a shoulder buster, but with a good compensator it's manageable. I've used it for deer as far as 150yrd so far and have never had an issue. All that said, my favorite part about strait wall cartridges is reloading.
An “old mauser”? Which one? Didn’t think this was a thing……
Always great information. Thanks
I own a 450 bushmaster in a lightweight AR platform and I would never go into grizzly country without it. 250 grain projectiles going 2200 fps the perfect balance between heavy, fast, and manageable.
I love my 450 AR, taken 3 8 pt bucks so far with it...puts em down
Just ran across this video. As a handgun hunter taking deer with a 44 mag and the 454 Casull, I believe you have the numbers switched between the two. Great content as always.
Love my 450 bushmaster
We don't have to use straight walked cartridges in Maine, but i still love them. The 450BM is just an incredibly efficient round for hunting out of the AR platform
Ron I get 2400 fps in my 20inch 450 bushmaster ar15 iwith the 250 grain Hornady flex tip it's also very accurate ,
Thanks!
You're very welcome!
May favorite straight wall cartridge rifle is my Ruger 44 carbine. It's my only straight wall rifle lol.
I live in Oregon and only hunt with a bow but watching this is pretty informative. Oregon doesnt have restrictions on rifles for hunting so i feel back for you midwest boys.
the walls on my .270 are straight, its just the shoulders that are not.....another very informative video Ron👍
Good video as always. Another aspect to consider with each cartridge/ bullet choice is the impact velocity to make the bullet function. The straight walls are plagued by running out of sufficient impact velocity down range to enable the bullet open as intended. There are some custom bullet makers out there producing bullets with lower velocity thresholds. If you find yourself trying to maximize the range of your straight wall cartridge, be mindful of your impact velocity in relation to the minimum threshold of the bullet you are using.