Only real feedback I have is an entire separate tier between volke and sothe. It just seems a bit much since volke only has one relevant map over Sothe, and the rest of their thieving contributions are shared. That being said, Volke having shade and more bulk should absolutely put him higher - just maybe not an entire tier?
@@brozomicki-sothe307 you're not wrong but unless you're playing on JP where money is actually really tight (which this list is not for), 50 gold per chest is negligible, so I would value volkes bulk and shade more
Volke has a few extra advantages over Sothe, but i don't know if it's relevant enough. Volke can steal more items compared to Sothe without investments. Volke being heavier can shove certain units Sothe can't, Ike being the biggest one I could see them be in the same tier if their only relevant role is opening doors/chests. If it barely matters who of the two you deploy to do that role, they can be the same tier
@@tricky2795 I don't think the stealing advantage is that relevant unless you're trying to meme with stealing rexaura, but I could be wrong. The shoving part is a fair minor advantage that volke has over Sothe though
@@kirbymastah volke can kill units tho, not strong units but filler ones. Sothe arrives underleveled and stays useless except for opening chests. I think the difference between a bad combat unit and an unit that basically cannot fight warrants a tier difference The only reason I would put sothe even is if you consider mawing him out for radiant dawn transfers. But I dont think it should be a factor as its a PoR tier list
Since you mentioned Marcia's durability, I would like to bring up my recent experience: my Difficult-mode Marcia had equal Spd and Def at level 20/2 (with no stat-boosters in either stat). She was making bows tink before I even got the Full Guard. It was crazy! Obviously this isn't really relevant to actual unit discussion, but I thought I'd mention it anyway.
Especially both strength and defense. I'm so used to seeing pegasus knight units having subpar/decent strength stats. Her speed will always be high ofc lol.
Alright, a new batch of units to evaluate. I'm a bit late, but I gave my own rankings on the units in part 1 of this series and will do so again here. For context, here's how I organize my tiers; S: Meta-defining. These units fundamentally change how the game is played A: Usually units that are very good at BOTH combat and providing utility B: Units that are good in their combat ability OR utility, typically not both C: Units that have value within a specific niche or are average across the board for most of their existence D: These characters are bad, and the investment needed to make them viable is almost always unjustifiable. (Note: my evaluations are specifically on Hard/Difficult mode) Mia: D tear (get it? Cause it makes you sad?) Yeah, I don't have much to add here. She has all the shortcomings of a foot-locked, sword-locked unit and all of her "strengths" aren't unique to her. Easily a bottom 3 character. Thankfully for Mia fans though, no unit consumed more Good Unit Juice (tm) than she did between FE9 and FE10. Seriously, she injected kilos of that Shit (tm) straight into the bloodstream. Rolf: D tear (get it? Cause he's a crybaby?) Just like Mia, I don't have much to add. Instead of the shortcomings of a sword-locked unit, he has the shortcomings of a bow-locked unit. Woo. This is a nitpick but I don't think putting Rolf+Mia in a tier lower than D is necessary. Yes, they're bad but I think putting them in E infers that they're borderline-unusable, which they aren't. They're not Vika level bad. Marcia: S tier, best unit in the game imo Like the very, very bad units I also don't have much to add with regards to the best units. I personally think Marcia's ability to dominate about two-thirds of the game supersedes Titania's ability to dominate the first half of the game when it comes to who the best character is, but that's another nitpick. Due to the tools FE9 gives the player (BEXP, forges, boots, full guard) Marcia can basically have no weaknesses except for a not great strength cap, which only matters in the late game. Marcia doesn't just dominate FE9; she invalidates it. I personally tend to give her the Ch11 dracoshield, but I don't think it's a necessity. Lethe/Mordecai/Muarim: Low B I'll admit that my experience with Muarim and Mordecai is rather limited, though I think they're similar enough to Lethe to all be grouped together. This trio has an interesting set of pros and cons as combat units. They don't have 1-2 range, but have great move: they can only attack half the time, but Lethe transforms instantly and all 3 have access to the demi band or the laguz stones if they really need it. Also, they all have a nice utility as shovers, Mordecai in particular due to having smite at base. Due to their surprising bulk, they can also rescue any vulnerable unit and take some punishment in a pinch. I think these units' placement is heavily dependent on just how much utility you can extract from them, as a result I think they can be anything between mid C and mid B. None of these units benefit massively from their supports, but Muarim with a Zihark support and Lethe with any of her supports get dodgier, which is always nice. I'd say Lethe slightly edges out the others, if only because of the instant transformation. Volke: High C tier (Possibly the gatekeeper of B tier) I think you guys might be underestimating his value a little bit. I stated before that I think all thieves/staff users are at minimum C tier due to their utility, but I think Volke has a bit more going for him than that. Outside of low use, high impact staves (e.g. Rescue, Hammerne) Physic will be the best staff to use in 90% of situations; so the fact he can freely steal Physic staves from most enemy healers in the mid and late game is VERY nice. If you get as many as you can you'll basically never run out of them. There are also some weapons he could steal as well, though this is more situational. Relating to combat, his damage output is actually surprisingly respectable (IF you train him) due to his 60% strength growth. Since occult scrolls aren't that competitive, using one on him with the stilleto in the back half of the game gives him around a 5% chance or so to one-shot any enemy. Not great and he'll never be a core combat unit, but it serves him well enough when it comes to being a "detouring skirmisher" that can handle a stray enemy or two near chests, which is what you want thieves to be. His biggest weakness is simply not being able to be everywhere at once on big maps with chests far away from eachother (e.g ch13, ch21, ch28). Sothe: Low C tier While Sothe largely has all the same utility as Volke but the big difference between the two is their self-sufficiency. Sothe's low stats and inability to promote practically guarantees that if you're using him another unit will have to babysit him in case of enemies near chests or nearby reinforcements, which is fairly often. Sothe is still valuable for his thief utility but is outclassed in basically every way by Volke. The one advantage he has in theory is in practice a non-factor due to the abundance of money on any non-maniac difficulty. Nephenee: Low-to-mid B tier To me Neph is in a somewhat similar spot to Soren: require a good amount of investment, but the investment is well worth it. There's two things about Neph that I think is noteworthy, the knight ward and wrath shenanigans. Part of why I think highly of characters like Ike, Soren, and Oscar is their ability to gain a lot of avoid through their supports. In a manner of speaking, their dodgy-ness removes an element of randomness from the game as they'll be able to take on large quantities of enemies without thought. In a similar vein, the knight ward achieves the same idea but when it comes to reaching doubling thresholds. The fact that Neph will be able to double everything for most of her existence is quite valuable to me. Wrath+Vantage Neph can - as you may imagine - do a lot of work, though I think this idea may require a seraph robe for safety as her base hp is suspect for this sort of strat. Not to mention the perk that she can do this without restricting another unit from the potent Wrath+Resolve combo that near-defines the endgame. Brom: D tier I took a cursory glance at what his speed would look like on average with the knight ward boost... not great. Even with it he still won't double reliably for a long time. Individual enemies aren't as threatening as they are in more recent entries. As such a low move defensive wall just doesn't have much purpose here. He's a lovely character, though not in terms of unit performance. Zihark: Low C tier Zihark in this game is basically a discount, clearance aisle, great value Ike. He won't get Aether or a good 1-2 range weapon, but his Muarim support will help him out quite a bit and adept is a nice perk as well. He's still fundamentally limited due to being a swift swordie but you certainly have worse options when it comes to sword users. It's mainly his affinity that keeps him out of D tier for me. Jill: S tier, duh Oh hey, it's my favorite character in the series! As another member of the Elite Four, I don't have much to add here. Due to her mount, 1-2 range, super canto, gaining forged steel axes on promo, and good defensive bulk: she basically has no weaknesses. Tellius is a Wyvern Rider's world that everyone else has to live in. She can do almost anything she wants with little fear or apprehension. It's dumb. Oh, and for anyone who read all this: thanks, I appreciate it.
I once again want to bring up the point that some of the cohosts brought on for this series are looking at games at a ‘higher level’ than the tier lists started out on. There’s absolutely no chance that I’m efficient-but-casual play, people are going to be planning out Smites on their mounter units from characters who need Statue Frags. That’s just one example among several in this video where the criteria for where units gets placed really jumbles things. These lists started out with how good characters are in an efficient but not LTC strategy setting, and the lists revised for both PoR and SS have both gone way way way in the direction of LTC tier lists, where inefficient characters are considerably more strongly penalized than they used to be.
I'd honestly disagree in this case. FE9 arrive maps are the one place where even a casual player might try to go for a shove chain, even if it isn't planned in advance. Also, regarding Marcia and Jill, they're still next to each other in the same tier, they were only discussing the relatively minute differences between the two. None of this is as bad as putting Kamui like two tiers below Saber in SoV even though they're virtually the same unit in casual play.
Shove chains are really valuable casually as long as you're aware that the tool exists. And as for usage of statue frags... what else are they ever going to be used for? Boyd/Largo for Colossus memes maybe but that's it
Concerning Lethe's pronounciation: the English wikipedia site suggests the pronounciation Lḗthē [lɛ́:tʰɛː], so you're obviously both wrong. 😎 However, since Lethe is an Ancient Greek name (Λήθη), and the historically correct pronounciation of Ancient Greek words is not entirely clear, I guess you could argue that both "Leith" and "Leth" aren't really falser pronounciations of Λήθη than the one suggested by the school books.
Mia being roughly the same as Rolf is pretty crazy talk imo. Skip the chapter 9 houses if you want, but if you don't, as Mekkah says, she can contribute. Maybe you undeploy her on the defend map, but if you don't, she's not useless there, either. She sure isn't good, or doing all that much, but there's still a clear difference between her contributions and Rolf's imo. Plus, if you did train Mia, you'd get more out of it, even though it still wouldn't be great.
Thats cuz her joining chapter is pretty bad , comes late (she should have join since chapter 1), bad bases , lvl 6 , and super squishy when the game has lances as most enemy units. They realize that and make her OP in RD lol
@@henryreturns1397 Rolf is also super squishy, has worse bases, a worse weapon, and joins later. Brom isn't particularly squishy, but he doesn't contribute anything by the time he joins, because you have a full roster of better units, which isn't the case when Mia joins.
Yeah, Rolf and Mia are both bad, but the difference is huge. Mia is swordlocked, a bad weapon type, but Rolf is bowlocked, he has no enemy phase. Mia has bad bases, but Rolfs are worse, he joins later and 5 levels lower. And when Rolf catches up in level, his bases are Mia's but with 5 worse speed. Mia can be salvaged with a forge and a couple maps of babysitting. Rolf basically requires BExp to get going and even then stays an archer who can kill only on player phase.
Mia's join chapter is so bad for her, I usually end up using her in my playthroughs but unless you really want an extra unit with vantage there's not much she does that Ike or Zihark already don't, the latter usually only falling short in resistance which isn't very important. Not sure if I'd only consider her better than Rolf but she's still one of the weakest units to deploy overall. While not amazing in this game it always depressed me how much laguz felt gutted in RD, Lethe in particular feels so awful to use there, I dunno who thought halving their human form stats, removing the insta transform for some characters and also messing with the gauge costs in exchange of simply being able to do a dinky counter that's a more of a hindrance than anything was a good idea. C tier sure is starting to get trimmed, and I wouldn't be surprised if Elincia and Tauroneo left it when it's all said and done, maybe Ranulf too (although I also expect Makalov to drop to C from his current ranking). Kinda feel the dragons might also drop to E, I'm no pro at this game but I always felt the 2 maps they were available for they hardly did anything of value, and they can't even boast giving passive buffs to adjacent allies this time around. Maybe the royals as well but I feel they at least contribute more during the 2nd phase of Ashnards fight (or I guess most of the map in Easy/Normal) than whatever Ena or Nasir can hope to accomplish.
Mia chapter has so many tough enemies and she came with iron sword make her pretty fragile and bad in combat not like Zihark with Killing edge or Stefan S rank sword. Even ike has regal blade to deal to hard to deal enemies. She is not too bad, it's just the game is not fair for her
there's an armorslayer in one of the first chests in her recruitment chapter so she's not a total sitting duck against the armors in it, it doesn't really help her much as she's weighted down a ton by it and still doesn't do much damage thanks to the multipliers being weaker in PoR. That most of the stuff you'll be dealing with in the next few chapters are lance soldiers doesn't help her cause either. She's still usable enough up to hard mode (never played maniac to confirm how she fares there) thanks to PoR being pretty easy all things considered (she's no Sophia that's for sure), but on a more optimal run I can't say there's much she brings to the table.
I don't really mind Brom in E, although he is faster than Gatrie by 2 base and they have the same growth. You can fix his speed with the KW- he can have 16 Spd after promotion which is faster than say, Devdan. But we probably don't want to spend BEXP on a low Mov unit.
So, I've been playing FE9 just for fun and I gotta say, I think there's an argument for Lethe in A Rank. I remember having a debate over a decade ago with Snowy One where I argued that Stefan was better than Lethe but honestly, this run has taught me a few things. 1) Lethe starts with a full transform gauge. Sure, this isn't Radiant Dawn with Olivi Grass but you're getting a 9 move unit relatively early in the game who is hilariously tanky and can double almost the entire map. That's 26 Att from Turn 1 of every map to around Turn 5 if she's seen a lot of combat. What's so significant about this is how few units match this level of offense without significant resources. We're talking about +5 Mt Steel Weapons at a point in the game where we also need to add -Wt to them (14/0 Oscar needs -2 Wt on top of +5 Mt on a Steel Lance) and money is at a premium. Lethe just has this out of the box with no investment needed. 2) Lethe's bulk is hilarious. She starts with 34 HP, 14 Def and 10 Res. These bases are better than Titania's, who may have gained a few levels but will only have 14 Def on average by around ?/8. Even fire mages don't really worry Lethe. But the icing on top is the Beorcguard that Lethe gets. This thing halves ALL incoming damage coming at her (providing she's facing a Beorc but they make up 90% of the game). And it still works when she's untransformed, meaning that if her gauge dies while in the middle of enemies, it'll still take 33 Att in order to 3HKO her, a value you won't see deep into the lategame when Silver weapons finally appear. Even fire mages need 21 Mag on Elfire or Bolganone and 13 Mag just for a 3HKO on an untransformed Lethe. Exactly how many Bolganone enemies even exist in this game? 10 maximum? I'm not playing Maniac Mode so maybe it's different there but using my hard copy of this game, I have been so pleasantly surprised by Lethe than when Ranulf showed up about 13 maps later, I felt annoyed that I was getting a 2nd Lethe that kinda wasn't as good as her due to her Turn 1 transformation.
Just a note, Beorcguard doesnt cut all Beorc damage in half, just effective Beorc damage. So Fire damage, laguz slaying weapons etc. Its a text error on the English versions part but it is notable. I dont think it helps bird laguz against bows either, just laguz effective weapons.
@@EZog58 Incorrect. Beorc/Laguzguard cuts ALL incoming damage from that race in half. I know this for a fact because I've been running Beorcguard!Lethe for the entire game and she had near identical stats as Ranulf, who took twice as much damage as her from everything. Since I moved, my current TV doesn't have AUX cables to plug in my NGC but when I get the right tool, I'll load up my current run at Chapter 27 and double-check to make sure. But I'm 100% certain that it doesn't apply to all effective damage but rather all.
@@LifeAdmiral Here is an exact description of the item from Serenes Forest, one of the top Fire Emblem resource sites: Beorcguard: Laguz only, negates effective bonus of Laguz-killing weapons towards use In contrast, the Laguzguard reads: Beorc only, halves damage taken from Laguz attacks Another excerpt from the FE wiki: The Beorcguard (ベオクガード Beoku gādo) is a shield that is exclusive to Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance. A Laguz-only item, the Beorcguard, when equipped, negates the Weapon effectiveness bonus of that Laguz-slaying weapons such as the Laguzslayer and the Laguz Lance are capable of inflicting against its user. Effective damage in FE9 is double damage, hence the Beorcguard makes it half damage. I completely understand why you would think it halves all damage since that's exactly what the Laguzguard does. But unfortunately the Beorcguard is not neary as useful, and is inferior in almost all ways to the Demi band. Think of how insane Beorcguard Reyson would be if it halved all damage, using him would be a LOT easier, but sadly, its not meant to be. As an aside, I do also love using Lethe and agree that she's better than Mordecai and likely Muarim for tier lists.
@@EZog58 I don't particularly care what SF says because it can be wrong. I am saying that from my playthrough, Lethe has been taking half damage from all beorc. Considering that the last time I played this game on my Gamecube was less than a week ago, I'm pretty sure that I am correct but I have no issue with double checking when I get the ability to. For the record, I know SF well because I have been banned from their forum. I've been playing this specific game (FE9) for nearly 20 years since it was my first entry into the series. Please don't treat me as if I have no idea of what I'm talking about. forums.serenesforest.net/index.php?/topic/24475-snowy-vs-life/ This is the debate from a decade ago that I referenced.
Disappointed to see mia all the way down , could be a tier higher. I mean she's terrible but at least she helps a bit when you get her she's a usefull unit for 2-3 chapters, like chip damage and taking a hit here and there. Rolf needs training to even do that.
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. And she has 4 chapters of availability over Zihark. More than enough time for her to be caught up to him sword rank wise, and by that time, the differences between them aren't worth them being split by a whole tier. Radiant Dawn, on the other hand, I can totally see a difference in tiers, because Mia is so much better there, and the difference is greater, in favor of Mia.
Yeah Mia tends to be...controversial but I think they swung a little too hard here. She does some stuff in the C7 rout and in C9 and after that like she's really not much different than Zihark. He probably has a 1 or 2 point strength lead and 2-3 HP and Adept I guess. I don't think that's a tier difference.
@@thomastrautman5855 Yeah, it most definitely isn't. I think Mia and Zihark should be in the same tier, because Mia can do stuff in those 4 chapters where she is around before Zihark joins to be typically caught up to him. Also, Vantage isn't a bad skill to have. Sure, when Adept procs, it's better, but that's just it. It's not always active like PoR Vantage is. While that's changed in RD, Mia can almost immediately get Adept from Soren, and she would be the best of the GMs with it, especially since it can stack with Vantage.
Tauroneo in C is weird- maybe it's some Resolve strategy? But it takes him so many rounds of combat to get him to 50% and you have plenty of units with good combat but better Mov at this point.
Looking at the other C, he should just be an alright filler unit without much investment. Units like Ranulf, Geoffrey, Haar, Stephan, Calil, although he is prob worse than most of them, but not significant enough You can deploy any of these filler units to help out in the lategame maps and they should perform better than the bad filler D tier units like Lucia and Largo
@@tricky2795 Is Tauroneo even better than Largo? Largo has more Mov, particularly in C25 and can double stuff. Even with PoR HM's bad enemies 13 AS is not enough.
@@thomastrautman5855 Largo has 10 defense, which is even less than Bastian, a sage He does have a lot of hp, but with paper defense like that, he cannot face multiple enemies compared to units with higher defense, Tauroneo having 22 defense let him hold off a wave of enemies in the lategame maps so your other units have more time dealing with the main problems
@@tricky2795 Largo is like 4-5HKOd by most enemy combinations on HM which is pretty workable. Do we really want Tauroneo facing a lot of enemies if he isn't going to kill them? The rest of the tier list doesn't seem to reflect this.
@@thomastrautman5855 they both join late, Largo joins especially late at chapter 25, but he will do fine there. The next map Clash has high enemy density, you want to make a beeline through the middle with your mounted units + Ike, while your remaining units like Tauroneo and Largo try to delay the side waves as long as possible. Tauroneo will have an easy time delaying either sides compared to Largo who has too low defense to engage with too many enemies at once. The enemies have around 25-29ish atk power, so Largo gets 3-4 HKO'd here The last map has the same thing going where your main army clears the way to the final boss, while the remaining units stall the two side waves
just wait till FE10, where she's somehow a sword locked unit that is legitimately good and the arguably the best Greil Merc after Ike & Titania. The Tellius games are pretty great at giving a lot of people some time to shine, a lot of characters who are bad PoR are pretty good in RD (Mia, Zihark, Shinon and Janaff/Ulki to name a few) and vice versa (Oscar, Kieran, Marcia, basically all the non-royal laguz etc)
I wanted to contest that Rolf isn't bad. But yeah, he is. The kind of bad unit I get from Rolf is that he starts out pretty bad and the amount of effort for him to be good isn't worth it. I propose that the initial effort isn't that bad. It's more of a hump. I can't remember if he competes for deployment slots; I always managed to field him. And after you overcome the hump, Rolf becomes a solid dodge tank with a lot of HP, and heavily outperforming Shinon. Does that make him worth it? Probably not. Make of my anecdote what you will.
Other than Astrid, he's really your only bow unit that can be good until Boyd, Oscar, Kieran, or Makalov (2 of which would be better with axes) promote. Also I found he's very useful at the Temple chapter not killing the bishop in front of all of the priests you're trying to save (but siege tomes are more useful there I suppose anyways)
Mia is better than half the units in D tier, she helps much more in Chapters 7-9 more than Lucia and Bastion do in their joining chapter. She honestly isn't terrible long term either. Vantage is a nice skill to have. Royal Laguz are better than the Dragons also. In my experience the Dragons can't really do much damage to Ashnard, which is basically the only reason you'll ever use them. Nephenee needs to be in E tier. She really has nothing going for her. Janaff and Ranulf need to come down to D tier. Only one Laguz (not counting Reyson) can be good in a battle and that is because of the Demi Band, which should usually go to Mordecai or Muarim. Tormod should go to B tier. 8 move on a Sage is crazy good, especially in a game dominated by counted units. Ilyana should be in C tier. She is very underwhelming because of her mediocre speed growth. Soren and Tormod are much more reliable.
I agree. I always use mia until i get better. She helps a bit in the chapters then can help cleaning the bandits on marcia's joining chapter to clear it fast while still grabbing items.
Agree with Mia, but only for chapter 9. You don't have a choice in that map, it's Mia or nothing, clearing that beach is still a side objective she helps with. Her relevance in chapter 7 is almost nothing and in chapter 8, it's usually better to not deploy her for more Bexp Royal Laguz don't join you until you beat Ashnard 1st round in hard mode, if you beat him the 1st round, you don't really need their help for round 2. The dragons are the only option besides Ike that you have to beat Ashnard hard mode round 1. Nephenee is salvable, but there is no reason to invest in her when your options are Kieran, Marcia and Oscar at that point, if she is E, it would be for that reason, if she stays in D, it's because she is a better investment compared to the other D tiers Janaff immediately transforms turn 1, he doesn't need a Demi Band, and he is helpful for ferrying units over rivers and other terrain being a flying unit. Ranulf i guess all he going for him is being mostly filler unit, he transforms turn 3 on his own, so he can help out in a map like Clash without a Demi Band Tormod downsides compared to Ilyana and Soren are more severe than the upside he brings and should be a tier lower compared to them. They join much earlier and therefore able to work on their staff rank way before Tormod joins. You will need to save a ton of Bexp for Tormod to function at his joining time, Ilyana and Soren can be trained normally with only bit of Bexp investment against the weaker chapter 8-14 enemies compared to Tormod facing chapter 16+ enemies Ilyana AS is roughly the same as Soren, as he usually gets weighted down by tomes. They should be the same tier, as there is almost no important difference who you train over the other. Both will function the same role to snipe key enemies with siege tomes and be a staffbot at the same pace
@@tricky2795 cant agree on soren an illyana being even remotely close... You have a large amount of forge opportunities and a -1 weight forge costs like nothing, he can also use other tomes and adept is super strong. I never tried lunatic as I dont have it on my version but in hard a simple -1 weight +1 might forge fire tome usually one rounds heavy knights on chapter 8 unless he's very screwed rng wise On a self imposed no forge hard mode run maybe they would be closer but on a hard mode run you get a forge per chapter and you never really run out of them. Soren is usually a real strong unit in my hard mode runs while illyana is barely usable.
@@voidroad Ilyanna base stats are higher, it will take time for Soren to be better than Ilyana, which he will be eventually, but the difference over the course of the game is not important enough for a full tier difference
Character analysis timestamps:
Mia 0:39
Rolf 6:36
Marcia 8:57
Lethe 19:27
Mordecai 25:45
Muarim 31:47
Volke 36:55
Sothe 44:35
Nephenee 46:33
Reposition of many units 50:57
Brom 51:14
Zihark 54:20
Jill 58:00
that brom guy seems pretty cool, i wonder what his name backwards is?
Emit gni Brom sti!
sus
Why do I see the morb meme everywhere
@@domicraft6341 It's what morbuis says. He says "I'm gonna Morb!" right before you fights his best friend to the death.
10:00 > Marcia's unit value comes from converting resources into utility.
Thats a sentence that sums up so many of your Unit Analysis videos
Only real feedback I have is an entire separate tier between volke and sothe. It just seems a bit much since volke only has one relevant map over Sothe, and the rest of their thieving contributions are shared. That being said, Volke having shade and more bulk should absolutely put him higher - just maybe not an entire tier?
Yeah especially since you have to pay him to open chests
@@brozomicki-sothe307 you're not wrong but unless you're playing on JP where money is actually really tight (which this list is not for), 50 gold per chest is negligible, so I would value volkes bulk and shade more
Volke has a few extra advantages over Sothe, but i don't know if it's relevant enough.
Volke can steal more items compared to Sothe without investments.
Volke being heavier can shove certain units Sothe can't, Ike being the biggest one
I could see them be in the same tier if their only relevant role is opening doors/chests.
If it barely matters who of the two you deploy to do that role, they can be the same tier
@@tricky2795 I don't think the stealing advantage is that relevant unless you're trying to meme with stealing rexaura, but I could be wrong. The shoving part is a fair minor advantage that volke has over Sothe though
@@kirbymastah volke can kill units tho, not strong units but filler ones. Sothe arrives underleveled and stays useless except for opening chests.
I think the difference between a bad combat unit and an unit that basically cannot fight warrants a tier difference
The only reason I would put sothe even is if you consider mawing him out for radiant dawn transfers. But I dont think it should be a factor as its a PoR tier list
wow Brom is so good that he wrapped around into E tier he truely is the best character in the game.
Since you mentioned Marcia's durability, I would like to bring up my recent experience: my Difficult-mode Marcia had equal Spd and Def at level 20/2 (with no stat-boosters in either stat). She was making bows tink before I even got the Full Guard. It was crazy!
Obviously this isn't really relevant to actual unit discussion, but I thought I'd mention it anyway.
Getting a defense blessed Marcia is *amazing.*
Especially both strength and defense. I'm so used to seeing pegasus knight units having subpar/decent strength stats. Her speed will always be high ofc lol.
Comfy typhoon voice hype
Alright, a new batch of units to evaluate. I'm a bit late, but I gave my own rankings on the units in part 1 of this series and will do so again here. For context, here's how I organize my tiers;
S: Meta-defining. These units fundamentally change how the game is played
A: Usually units that are very good at BOTH combat and providing utility
B: Units that are good in their combat ability OR utility, typically not both
C: Units that have value within a specific niche or are average across the board for most of their existence
D: These characters are bad, and the investment needed to make them viable is almost always unjustifiable.
(Note: my evaluations are specifically on Hard/Difficult mode)
Mia: D tear (get it? Cause it makes you sad?)
Yeah, I don't have much to add here. She has all the shortcomings of a foot-locked, sword-locked unit and all of her "strengths" aren't unique to her. Easily a bottom 3 character. Thankfully for Mia fans though, no unit consumed more Good Unit Juice (tm) than she did between FE9 and FE10. Seriously, she injected kilos of that Shit (tm) straight into the bloodstream.
Rolf: D tear (get it? Cause he's a crybaby?)
Just like Mia, I don't have much to add. Instead of the shortcomings of a sword-locked unit, he has the shortcomings of a bow-locked unit. Woo. This is a nitpick but I don't think putting Rolf+Mia in a tier lower than D is necessary. Yes, they're bad but I think putting them in E infers that they're borderline-unusable, which they aren't. They're not Vika level bad.
Marcia: S tier, best unit in the game imo
Like the very, very bad units I also don't have much to add with regards to the best units. I personally think Marcia's ability to dominate about two-thirds of the game supersedes Titania's ability to dominate the first half of the game when it comes to who the best character is, but that's another nitpick. Due to the tools FE9 gives the player (BEXP, forges, boots, full guard) Marcia can basically have no weaknesses except for a not great strength cap, which only matters in the late game. Marcia doesn't just dominate FE9; she invalidates it. I personally tend to give her the Ch11 dracoshield, but I don't think it's a necessity.
Lethe/Mordecai/Muarim: Low B
I'll admit that my experience with Muarim and Mordecai is rather limited, though I think they're similar enough to Lethe to all be grouped together. This trio has an interesting set of pros and cons as combat units. They don't have 1-2 range, but have great move: they can only attack half the time, but Lethe transforms instantly and all 3 have access to the demi band or the laguz stones if they really need it. Also, they all have a nice utility as shovers, Mordecai in particular due to having smite at base. Due to their surprising bulk, they can also rescue any vulnerable unit and take some punishment in a pinch. I think these units' placement is heavily dependent on just how much utility you can extract from them, as a result I think they can be anything between mid C and mid B. None of these units benefit massively from their supports, but Muarim with a Zihark support and Lethe with any of her supports get dodgier, which is always nice. I'd say Lethe slightly edges out the others, if only because of the instant transformation.
Volke: High C tier (Possibly the gatekeeper of B tier)
I think you guys might be underestimating his value a little bit. I stated before that I think all thieves/staff users are at minimum C tier due to their utility, but I think Volke has a bit more going for him than that. Outside of low use, high impact staves (e.g. Rescue, Hammerne) Physic will be the best staff to use in 90% of situations; so the fact he can freely steal Physic staves from most enemy healers in the mid and late game is VERY nice. If you get as many as you can you'll basically never run out of them. There are also some weapons he could steal as well, though this is more situational. Relating to combat, his damage output is actually surprisingly respectable (IF you train him) due to his 60% strength growth. Since occult scrolls aren't that competitive, using one on him with the stilleto in the back half of the game gives him around a 5% chance or so to one-shot any enemy. Not great and he'll never be a core combat unit, but it serves him well enough when it comes to being a "detouring skirmisher" that can handle a stray enemy or two near chests, which is what you want thieves to be. His biggest weakness is simply not being able to be everywhere at once on big maps with chests far away from eachother (e.g ch13, ch21, ch28).
Sothe: Low C tier
While Sothe largely has all the same utility as Volke but the big difference between the two is their self-sufficiency. Sothe's low stats and inability to promote practically guarantees that if you're using him another unit will have to babysit him in case of enemies near chests or nearby reinforcements, which is fairly often. Sothe is still valuable for his thief utility but is outclassed in basically every way by Volke. The one advantage he has in theory is in practice a non-factor due to the abundance of money on any non-maniac difficulty.
Nephenee: Low-to-mid B tier
To me Neph is in a somewhat similar spot to Soren: require a good amount of investment, but the investment is well worth it. There's two things about Neph that I think is noteworthy, the knight ward and wrath shenanigans. Part of why I think highly of characters like Ike, Soren, and Oscar is their ability to gain a lot of avoid through their supports. In a manner of speaking, their dodgy-ness removes an element of randomness from the game as they'll be able to take on large quantities of enemies without thought. In a similar vein, the knight ward achieves the same idea but when it comes to reaching doubling thresholds. The fact that Neph will be able to double everything for most of her existence is quite valuable to me. Wrath+Vantage Neph can - as you may imagine - do a lot of work, though I think this idea may require a seraph robe for safety as her base hp is suspect for this sort of strat. Not to mention the perk that she can do this without restricting another unit from the potent Wrath+Resolve combo that near-defines the endgame.
Brom: D tier
I took a cursory glance at what his speed would look like on average with the knight ward boost... not great. Even with it he still won't double reliably for a long time. Individual enemies aren't as threatening as they are in more recent entries. As such a low move defensive wall just doesn't have much purpose here. He's a lovely character, though not in terms of unit performance.
Zihark: Low C tier
Zihark in this game is basically a discount, clearance aisle, great value Ike. He won't get Aether or a good 1-2 range weapon, but his Muarim support will help him out quite a bit and adept is a nice perk as well. He's still fundamentally limited due to being a swift swordie but you certainly have worse options when it comes to sword users. It's mainly his affinity that keeps him out of D tier for me.
Jill: S tier, duh
Oh hey, it's my favorite character in the series! As another member of the Elite Four, I don't have much to add here. Due to her mount, 1-2 range, super canto, gaining forged steel axes on promo, and good defensive bulk: she basically has no weaknesses. Tellius is a Wyvern Rider's world that everyone else has to live in. She can do almost anything she wants with little fear or apprehension. It's dumb.
Oh, and for anyone who read all this: thanks, I appreciate it.
I once again want to bring up the point that some of the cohosts brought on for this series are looking at games at a ‘higher level’ than the tier lists started out on.
There’s absolutely no chance that I’m efficient-but-casual play, people are going to be planning out Smites on their mounter units from characters who need Statue Frags. That’s just one example among several in this video where the criteria for where units gets placed really jumbles things.
These lists started out with how good characters are in an efficient but not LTC strategy setting, and the lists revised for both PoR and SS have both gone way way way in the direction of LTC tier lists, where inefficient characters are considerably more strongly penalized than they used to be.
I'd honestly disagree in this case. FE9 arrive maps are the one place where even a casual player might try to go for a shove chain, even if it isn't planned in advance. Also, regarding Marcia and Jill, they're still next to each other in the same tier, they were only discussing the relatively minute differences between the two. None of this is as bad as putting Kamui like two tiers below Saber in SoV even though they're virtually the same unit in casual play.
Shove chains are really valuable casually as long as you're aware that the tool exists. And as for usage of statue frags... what else are they ever going to be used for? Boyd/Largo for Colossus memes maybe but that's it
Sigma best dad.
Concerning Lethe's pronounciation: the English wikipedia site suggests the pronounciation Lḗthē [lɛ́:tʰɛː], so you're obviously both wrong. 😎
However, since Lethe is an Ancient Greek name (Λήθη), and the historically correct pronounciation of Ancient Greek words is not entirely clear, I guess you could argue that both "Leith" and "Leth" aren't really falser pronounciations of Λήθη than the one suggested by the school books.
Mia being roughly the same as Rolf is pretty crazy talk imo. Skip the chapter 9 houses if you want, but if you don't, as Mekkah says, she can contribute. Maybe you undeploy her on the defend map, but if you don't, she's not useless there, either. She sure isn't good, or doing all that much, but there's still a clear difference between her contributions and Rolf's imo. Plus, if you did train Mia, you'd get more out of it, even though it still wouldn't be great.
And for that matter she should definitely be ahead of Brom.
Thats cuz her joining chapter is pretty bad , comes late (she should have join since chapter 1), bad bases , lvl 6 , and super squishy when the game has lances as most enemy units. They realize that and make her OP in RD lol
@@henryreturns1397 Rolf is also super squishy, has worse bases, a worse weapon, and joins later. Brom isn't particularly squishy, but he doesn't contribute anything by the time he joins, because you have a full roster of better units, which isn't the case when Mia joins.
Yeah, Rolf and Mia are both bad, but the difference is huge. Mia is swordlocked, a bad weapon type, but Rolf is bowlocked, he has no enemy phase. Mia has bad bases, but Rolfs are worse, he joins later and 5 levels lower. And when Rolf catches up in level, his bases are Mia's but with 5 worse speed. Mia can be salvaged with a forge and a couple maps of babysitting. Rolf basically requires BExp to get going and even then stays an archer who can kill only on player phase.
Excellent analysis as always but I greatly prefer when you go in tier order rather than recruitment order
Take away from this video. I do not say "Mar - Sha" I say "Mar - See - aa" O_o;
Mia's join chapter is so bad for her, I usually end up using her in my playthroughs but unless you really want an extra unit with vantage there's not much she does that Ike or Zihark already don't, the latter usually only falling short in resistance which isn't very important. Not sure if I'd only consider her better than Rolf but she's still one of the weakest units to deploy overall.
While not amazing in this game it always depressed me how much laguz felt gutted in RD, Lethe in particular feels so awful to use there, I dunno who thought halving their human form stats, removing the insta transform for some characters and also messing with the gauge costs in exchange of simply being able to do a dinky counter that's a more of a hindrance than anything was a good idea.
C tier sure is starting to get trimmed, and I wouldn't be surprised if Elincia and Tauroneo left it when it's all said and done, maybe Ranulf too (although I also expect Makalov to drop to C from his current ranking).
Kinda feel the dragons might also drop to E, I'm no pro at this game but I always felt the 2 maps they were available for they hardly did anything of value, and they can't even boast giving passive buffs to adjacent allies this time around. Maybe the royals as well but I feel they at least contribute more during the 2nd phase of Ashnards fight (or I guess most of the map in Easy/Normal) than whatever Ena or Nasir can hope to accomplish.
Mia chapter has so many tough enemies and she came with iron sword make her pretty fragile and bad in combat not like Zihark with Killing edge or Stefan S rank sword. Even ike has regal blade to deal to hard to deal enemies. She is not too bad, it's just the game is not fair for her
there's an armorslayer in one of the first chests in her recruitment chapter so she's not a total sitting duck against the armors in it, it doesn't really help her much as she's weighted down a ton by it and still doesn't do much damage thanks to the multipliers being weaker in PoR. That most of the stuff you'll be dealing with in the next few chapters are lance soldiers doesn't help her cause either.
She's still usable enough up to hard mode (never played maniac to confirm how she fares there) thanks to PoR being pretty easy all things considered (she's no Sophia that's for sure), but on a more optimal run I can't say there's much she brings to the table.
I find Sothe useful on both Astrid's map and the desert chapter. Gotta catch 'em all!
I don't really mind Brom in E, although he is faster than Gatrie by 2 base and they have the same growth. You can fix his speed with the KW- he can have 16 Spd after promotion which is faster than say, Devdan. But we probably don't want to spend BEXP on a low Mov unit.
Seeing Mia in E tier upsets me greatly.
At least she's good in RD
@@Kuma5655 Very true. That's the game where she became my FE waifu in.
So, I've been playing FE9 just for fun and I gotta say, I think there's an argument for Lethe in A Rank.
I remember having a debate over a decade ago with Snowy One where I argued that Stefan was better than Lethe but honestly, this run has taught me a few things.
1) Lethe starts with a full transform gauge. Sure, this isn't Radiant Dawn with Olivi Grass but you're getting a 9 move unit relatively early in the game who is hilariously tanky and can double almost the entire map. That's 26 Att from Turn 1 of every map to around Turn 5 if she's seen a lot of combat.
What's so significant about this is how few units match this level of offense without significant resources. We're talking about +5 Mt Steel Weapons at a point in the game where we also need to add -Wt to them (14/0 Oscar needs -2 Wt on top of +5 Mt on a Steel Lance) and money is at a premium. Lethe just has this out of the box with no investment needed.
2) Lethe's bulk is hilarious. She starts with 34 HP, 14 Def and 10 Res. These bases are better than Titania's, who may have gained a few levels but will only have 14 Def on average by around ?/8. Even fire mages don't really worry Lethe.
But the icing on top is the Beorcguard that Lethe gets. This thing halves ALL incoming damage coming at her (providing she's facing a Beorc but they make up 90% of the game). And it still works when she's untransformed, meaning that if her gauge dies while in the middle of enemies, it'll still take 33 Att in order to 3HKO her, a value you won't see deep into the lategame when Silver weapons finally appear. Even fire mages need 21 Mag on Elfire or Bolganone and 13 Mag just for a 3HKO on an untransformed Lethe. Exactly how many Bolganone enemies even exist in this game? 10 maximum?
I'm not playing Maniac Mode so maybe it's different there but using my hard copy of this game, I have been so pleasantly surprised by Lethe than when Ranulf showed up about 13 maps later, I felt annoyed that I was getting a 2nd Lethe that kinda wasn't as good as her due to her Turn 1 transformation.
Just a note, Beorcguard doesnt cut all Beorc damage in half, just effective Beorc damage. So Fire damage, laguz slaying weapons etc. Its a text error on the English versions part but it is notable. I dont think it helps bird laguz against bows either, just laguz effective weapons.
@@EZog58 Incorrect.
Beorc/Laguzguard cuts ALL incoming damage from that race in half.
I know this for a fact because I've been running Beorcguard!Lethe for the entire game and she had near identical stats as Ranulf, who took twice as much damage as her from everything.
Since I moved, my current TV doesn't have AUX cables to plug in my NGC but when I get the right tool, I'll load up my current run at Chapter 27 and double-check to make sure. But I'm 100% certain that it doesn't apply to all effective damage but rather all.
@@LifeAdmiral Here is an exact description of the item from Serenes Forest, one of the top Fire Emblem resource sites:
Beorcguard: Laguz only, negates effective bonus of Laguz-killing weapons towards use
In contrast, the Laguzguard reads: Beorc only, halves damage taken from Laguz attacks
Another excerpt from the FE wiki: The Beorcguard (ベオクガード Beoku gādo) is a shield that is exclusive to Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance. A Laguz-only item, the Beorcguard, when equipped, negates the Weapon effectiveness bonus of that Laguz-slaying weapons such as the Laguzslayer and the Laguz Lance are capable of inflicting against its user.
Effective damage in FE9 is double damage, hence the Beorcguard makes it half damage.
I completely understand why you would think it halves all damage since that's exactly what the Laguzguard does. But unfortunately the Beorcguard is not neary as useful, and is inferior in almost all ways to the Demi band. Think of how insane Beorcguard Reyson would be if it halved all damage, using him would be a LOT easier, but sadly, its not meant to be.
As an aside, I do also love using Lethe and agree that she's better than Mordecai and likely Muarim for tier lists.
@@EZog58 I don't particularly care what SF says because it can be wrong.
I am saying that from my playthrough, Lethe has been taking half damage from all beorc. Considering that the last time I played this game on my Gamecube was less than a week ago, I'm pretty sure that I am correct but I have no issue with double checking when I get the ability to.
For the record, I know SF well because I have been banned from their forum. I've been playing this specific game (FE9) for nearly 20 years since it was my first entry into the series. Please don't treat me as if I have no idea of what I'm talking about.
forums.serenesforest.net/index.php?/topic/24475-snowy-vs-life/
This is the debate from a decade ago that I referenced.
Disappointed to see mia all the way down , could be a tier higher. I mean she's terrible but at least she helps a bit when you get her she's a usefull unit for 2-3 chapters, like chip damage and taking a hit here and there. Rolf needs training to even do that.
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. And she has 4 chapters of availability over Zihark. More than enough time for her to be caught up to him sword rank wise, and by that time, the differences between them aren't worth them being split by a whole tier. Radiant Dawn, on the other hand, I can totally see a difference in tiers, because Mia is so much better there, and the difference is greater, in favor of Mia.
Yeah Mia tends to be...controversial but I think they swung a little too hard here. She does some stuff in the C7 rout and in C9 and after that like she's really not much different than Zihark. He probably has a 1 or 2 point strength lead and 2-3 HP and Adept I guess. I don't think that's a tier difference.
@@thomastrautman5855 Yeah, it most definitely isn't. I think Mia and Zihark should be in the same tier, because Mia can do stuff in those 4 chapters where she is around before Zihark joins to be typically caught up to him. Also, Vantage isn't a bad skill to have. Sure, when Adept procs, it's better, but that's just it. It's not always active like PoR Vantage is. While that's changed in RD, Mia can almost immediately get Adept from Soren, and she would be the best of the GMs with it, especially since it can stack with Vantage.
Tauroneo in C is weird- maybe it's some Resolve strategy? But it takes him so many rounds of combat to get him to 50% and you have plenty of units with good combat but better Mov at this point.
Looking at the other C, he should just be an alright filler unit without much investment. Units like Ranulf, Geoffrey, Haar, Stephan, Calil, although he is prob worse than most of them, but not significant enough
You can deploy any of these filler units to help out in the lategame maps and they should perform better than the bad filler D tier units like Lucia and Largo
@@tricky2795 Is Tauroneo even better than Largo? Largo has more Mov, particularly in C25 and can double stuff. Even with PoR HM's bad enemies 13 AS is not enough.
@@thomastrautman5855 Largo has 10 defense, which is even less than Bastian, a sage
He does have a lot of hp, but with paper defense like that, he cannot face multiple enemies compared to units with higher defense, Tauroneo having 22 defense let him hold off a wave of enemies in the lategame maps so your other units have more time dealing with the main problems
@@tricky2795 Largo is like 4-5HKOd by most enemy combinations on HM which is pretty workable. Do we really want Tauroneo facing a lot of enemies if he isn't going to kill them? The rest of the tier list doesn't seem to reflect this.
@@thomastrautman5855 they both join late, Largo joins especially late at chapter 25, but he will do fine there.
The next map Clash has high enemy density, you want to make a beeline through the middle with your mounted units + Ike, while your remaining units like Tauroneo and Largo try to delay the side waves as long as possible.
Tauroneo will have an easy time delaying either sides compared to Largo who has too low defense to engage with too many enemies at once. The enemies have around 25-29ish atk power, so Largo gets 3-4 HKO'd here
The last map has the same thing going where your main army clears the way to the final boss, while the remaining units stall the two side waves
whats a coincidence, im now playing FE9 for the first time, i just wanted Mia was a good character :(
just wait till FE10, where she's somehow a sword locked unit that is legitimately good and the arguably the best Greil Merc after Ike & Titania.
The Tellius games are pretty great at giving a lot of people some time to shine, a lot of characters who are bad PoR are pretty good in RD (Mia, Zihark, Shinon and Janaff/Ulki to name a few) and vice versa (Oscar, Kieran, Marcia, basically all the non-royal laguz etc)
FE9 is ridiculously easy, you can make everyone good, even on the hardest difficulty.
I wanted to contest that Rolf isn't bad.
But yeah, he is.
The kind of bad unit I get from Rolf is that he starts out pretty bad and the amount of effort for him to be good isn't worth it.
I propose that the initial effort isn't that bad. It's more of a hump.
I can't remember if he competes for deployment slots; I always managed to field him.
And after you overcome the hump, Rolf becomes a solid dodge tank with a lot of HP, and heavily outperforming Shinon.
Does that make him worth it? Probably not. Make of my anecdote what you will.
Other than Astrid, he's really your only bow unit that can be good until Boyd, Oscar, Kieran, or Makalov (2 of which would be better with axes) promote. Also I found he's very useful at the Temple chapter not killing the bishop in front of all of the priests you're trying to save (but siege tomes are more useful there I suppose anyways)
Mia is better than half the units in D tier, she helps much more in Chapters 7-9 more than Lucia and Bastion do in their joining chapter. She honestly isn't terrible long term either. Vantage is a nice skill to have.
Royal Laguz are better than the Dragons also. In my experience the Dragons can't really do much damage to Ashnard, which is basically the only reason you'll ever use them.
Nephenee needs to be in E tier. She really has nothing going for her.
Janaff and Ranulf need to come down to D tier. Only one Laguz (not counting Reyson) can be good in a battle and that is because of the Demi Band, which should usually go to Mordecai or Muarim.
Tormod should go to B tier. 8 move on a Sage is crazy good, especially in a game dominated by counted units.
Ilyana should be in C tier. She is very underwhelming because of her mediocre speed growth. Soren and Tormod are much more reliable.
I agree. I always use mia until i get better. She helps a bit in the chapters then can help cleaning the bandits on marcia's joining chapter to clear it fast while still grabbing items.
Agree with Mia, but only for chapter 9. You don't have a choice in that map, it's Mia or nothing, clearing that beach is still a side objective she helps with. Her relevance in chapter 7 is almost nothing and in chapter 8, it's usually better to not deploy her for more Bexp
Royal Laguz don't join you until you beat Ashnard 1st round in hard mode, if you beat him the 1st round, you don't really need their help for round 2.
The dragons are the only option besides Ike that you have to beat Ashnard hard mode round 1.
Nephenee is salvable, but there is no reason to invest in her when your options are Kieran, Marcia and Oscar at that point, if she is E, it would be for that reason, if she stays in D, it's because she is a better investment compared to the other D tiers
Janaff immediately transforms turn 1, he doesn't need a Demi Band, and he is helpful for ferrying units over rivers and other terrain being a flying unit.
Ranulf i guess all he going for him is being mostly filler unit, he transforms turn 3 on his own, so he can help out in a map like Clash without a Demi Band
Tormod downsides compared to Ilyana and Soren are more severe than the upside he brings and should be a tier lower compared to them.
They join much earlier and therefore able to work on their staff rank way before Tormod joins.
You will need to save a ton of Bexp for Tormod to function at his joining time, Ilyana and Soren can be trained normally with only bit of Bexp investment against the weaker chapter 8-14 enemies compared to Tormod facing chapter 16+ enemies
Ilyana AS is roughly the same as Soren, as he usually gets weighted down by tomes.
They should be the same tier, as there is almost no important difference who you train over the other. Both will function the same role to snipe key enemies with siege tomes and be a staffbot at the same pace
@@tricky2795 cant agree on soren an illyana being even remotely close...
You have a large amount of forge opportunities and a -1 weight forge costs like nothing, he can also use other tomes and adept is super strong. I never tried lunatic as I dont have it on my version but in hard a simple -1 weight +1 might forge fire tome usually one rounds heavy knights on chapter 8 unless he's very screwed rng wise
On a self imposed no forge hard mode run maybe they would be closer but on a hard mode run you get a forge per chapter and you never really run out of them.
Soren is usually a real strong unit in my hard mode runs while illyana is barely usable.
@@voidroad Ilyanna base stats are higher, it will take time for Soren to be better than Ilyana, which he will be eventually, but the difference over the course of the game is not important enough for a full tier difference
@@tricky2795 unless you didnt use him at all I have a hard time seeing illyana being better even on her join map