M34: The Berthier Converted to the 7.5mm Rimless Cartridge
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With the end of World War One, it was finally possible for the French military to replace the 8mm Lebel cartridge with a modern rimless cartridge, and they wasted no time in doing so. By 1924 a new round had been adopted, and along with it a new modern light machine gun. Next, the arsenals would start working on converting 8mm rifle to the new cartridge. The first candidate was the Lebel, and in 1927 a conversion was approved and a batch of a few hundred made - but this was a more expensive and time consuming process than anyone wanted. After some brief trials, it was decided to work on adapting the Berthier instead, and in 1934 a conversion designed from St Etienne was approved as the 1907/15-M34.
This new design used a new 22.5" barrel (570mm), a Mauser style internal 5-round double stack magazine, and new sights. The receivers and trigger parts were retained from the rifles being converted, along with the nosecaps and barrel bands, but not much else. Still, these conversions were put into production alongside the manufacture of new MAS-36 bolt action rifles. By the time of the German invasion about 63,000 M34 Berthiers had been converted, and were issued to frontline troops. They would fight in the Battle of France, and would also be used by German occupation forces as the Gewehr 241(f).
11:40 - so to “convert” these rifles they had to replace: the barrel, the magazine & trigger assembly, the bolt head, the sights, and the stock. At what point does a conversion become building a new rifle with a few salvaged parts?
Compared to a Lebel M27, this was very feasible. A Lebel converted to 7.5 was only 1/3 cheaper than building a new rifle. This would be at best 50%.
have you heard about the tale of the SA 80 😝
I want to see a 3-round Berthier vs a Lebel in a 2GACM. I'm curious if lower capacity but faster reload makes a difference.
If the match includes a defensive scenario where you have to shoot twenty pop up targets representing enemy troops advancing on you, then the Berthier wins. That's because after the first ten shots(the maximum amount of rounds a Lebel can carry in its magazine, shell carrier and chamber)the Lebel becomes a single shot weapon. And French ammo pouches don't carry loose rounds that well(unless you sew some unofficial cartridge loops on them).
Finally, the last Berthier has been videoed. Next up; a video series on every single Dutch Mannlicher rifle.
ohh that would be awesome!
Cheerful Pessimist How about maker mark variations on Gras bayonets, by Manufacturer, Year, and Contract?
And, after about two years, Ian shall say - this is the last video of sixty or so of Dutch Mannlicher rifles and carbines. Now let's start Mauser rifles from 1886 all over the world. And, after 30 years Ian, being completely grey at the time... Yeah, do not encourage him. Just don't.
tomenicus Remington Rolling Blocks. By contract, chronologically.
Just received my only dropped once shirt and I absolutely love it. Having just purchased my 1st Berthier a few weeks ago, they make a wonderful pair. Thanks Ian for this great series!!!
Awesome!
Ian you seemed exceptionally perky in this video, really showed through on camera and I really enjoyed how interested you sounded in sharing this knowledge! Thanks for the videos man!
Well, we all know Ian's got a soft spot in his heart for French firearms.
Well the name of the channel IS 'Forgotten Weapons", so.....
I'm actually sorry that the french rifle videos have come to an end!
It's been fascinating to hear about a whole series of rifles I didn't really know anything about
Matt Hayward he has the lebel,mas 36 and a hell loot more semiauto rifles to !!!!!!!
I also want a lebel !!!!!!!!!!
In the late '80s early '90s I had a friend that had what I now know to be a 1916 version of the Berthier. I remember spending every afternoon in my downtown library trying to figure out what his grandad's bring-back gun was. You have answered so many questions for me about this rifle. I thank you. Up until now I only knew it as an 8mm Lebel.
These video's have shown me to apreciate French guns more. They are really nice.
Thanks for producing this excellent series on Berthiers. Looking forward to the book!
Big thank you for this series, Ian! I really love how Berthier looks, beautiful rifle.
Fantastic series Ian, thank you very much!
Here in my hand y have a 3 round clip for a bethier and y am really tempted to pay a FedEx package to send it to mr Ian mc collum for his deep analysis and enjoyment!! Y don't deserve it. it should be in the hands of a true lover of French firearms. Keep on the good work!!!
This has been a great series Ian. Thank you!
What a sleek looking rifle. Thanks again for the awesome series!
Ian I really enjoyed the Berthier series. You have a gift and we all look forward to your next video.
Thank you and you have our support. Keep up the fantastic work.
Tim
Matrix Gunsmithing
This was a superb series. Thank you.
Finally the Berthier climax, after so many interruptions.
I knew the basics of the Berthier through WW1 from the C&Rsenal video, but these have delved to a depth that I never knew existed, including the post-WW1 rifles that I was sure existed but was clueless about. As always, great presentation and lots of cool rifles.
Excellent series.
Great series! Very interesting,enjoyable and educational. Thank you.
Great series. Thank you
As you said Ian, an interesting history behind these rifles.
Finally a video on the Berthier
A video on the Châtellerault, oh yeah. Keep 'em coming.
When you are getting tired of Berthiers but love Ian too much to ever not like his videos.
Very interesting series of videos, and a very interesting rifle indeed.
Was a fun watch.
so, when's going to be a video on the semi and full auto convertion of the berthier?
what about the 5,56 variant with rail mounts?
YaBailoBerta Unfortunately the only bolt action to full auto conversion I'm aware of is for the Ross Rifle (Huot Rifle)
char whick and the howell convertion for the number 3
and if you look past the pistol bullets you can also count the pedersen
but these ones are semiauto
char whick I think his comment was more of a jab at the fact that Ian has basically done most of the Berthiers.
thank you ian
Pretty nice and simple conversion.
Video coming on the MAC 24/29? That's awesome.
Edit: IIRC the stripper clips were aluminium because it was really cheap before WWII.
Great job Ian, id love to see a series on the m96 swedish mauser and its variants and evolution
Ian: "M-monsieur, I can't take it anymore, please let me go. I'm so tired, you've promised me that you'll let me go after 10 Berthiers videos"
Monsieur X: "But cher Monsieur Ian, we agreed zat your releaze from ze abduction will be condishional on your cuvering e-veu-ry variant of ze glorrriyus Berthier riffeule?"
Ian: "I have to get home sir, please I'm exhausted"
Monsieur X: "But yur are sorreuly meestaken, mon petit bonhomme, your are staying here forreveur in glorrieus France! You will catalogue eveurry firearm in the Invalides museum next! Hon hon.... hon hon hon... HON HON HON HON HON!!!! HON HON HON HON HON HON.... ahhh"
Ian: :'(
Was this de Gaulle? lol
The Berthier really had a long life after all the conversions and hold overs. It would had been hilarious if they did the semi-auto conversion.
Agreed
So good watching again
I've fired varied versions of the Berthier including the M34 and they are good rifles-Very accurate and smooth to shoot. The Berthier in various upgrades had long career.
Thank you for your hard work on the Berthier rifles. I enjoy it. Hopefully, a book on the Brethier rifles? With historically photographs and model ill.
Well, now I want a Berthier as well as a Lebel.
3:15 How in Earth did the French hit something, with THAT sight picture? They really got my respect, I wouldn't hit the side of the barn with that.
I get the feeling that Gun Jesus likes Berthiers, praise be upon them.
A video's coming on the 24/29? My prayers have been answered!!
Where is the video on that weird Mosin you showed us on Facebook a few months ago been waiting patiently for that one
Quite a long and interesting history on the Berthier family. Sounds like it was used longer than most bolt actions except maybe some Mausers and of course the Mosin. Good engineering, but i wonder if they would not have been better served by using their resources and labor to make MAS 36's and surplusing these out to the territories. Still a good design though. Great series; i really enjoyed it. Thanks a bunch
Is the lebel rifle next ???
good thing I wasn't in charge of french military rifle procurement because the second I saw this I thought "wow that looks really modern, I want one"
New French upgarde on small arms! I love conversions and upgrades.
Ian needs to do a mud test with one of these and with a MAS 36!
I really enjoy watching these videos. I didnt like the henry rifle series because im not so into leveraction guns (I saw every of the henry videos anyway...) but the idea of these series is awesome. Also it helps me with understanding guns without ever touching one (dont want to).
I have realized that I press "like" button even before I have watched the video... I just know I will like it :)
I'll be forever grateful to France for refusing to throw anything obsolete away. Gives us gun boffins more to look at.
I didn't know I needed a Berthier in my life, but I guess it's time to start looking. I'm blaming you for this, Ian.
great video as usual....
liked and shared
I find it interesting, that French rifles had stacking rods for years & only stopped having them in the 20th century.
Ian, good video on a Berthier variant that I would love to eventually get an example of. That may be difficult though since I have seen production numbers as low as 35,000 to as high as 45,000 in the late, great Stéphane Ferrard's work (I speak French and have most of his books), to your number of 63,000, which could be high. My understanding about the 7.5x54mm Mle. 1924/29 cartridge is that the switch from the x58 cartridge took place in the late 1920's-early 1930s (not 1939 as you indicate) since blowouts were experienced in early production FM-24s used in the Rif War in Morocco during the 20's, because the gun could feed 7.92x57mm Mauser, hence the changeover to the shorter casing, leading to the FM-24/29 (FM stands for fusil mitrailleur) which I really look forward to seeing. As for this particular rifle, they seem to have been issued as you indicate to troops in fixed positions, but apparently particularly to troops in the Maginot line fortifications. Also, are we going to see a video on the AA-52 general purpose machine gun any time soon?
Excellent coverage on French rifle development history as with all your technical videos. Well, let's see.... you just did a series on French rifles, after a series on the British bullpup rifles, you did justice to Winchester (both Henry and Browning based designs). Hey, I got an idea..... how about a series on firearms development/manufacture by a geographical locations.... like New England, where a lot of early work was done in firearms design/developments..... or... you could just do a focused series on ERMA Werke pistols and knock-off's (gee, where have I heard that before?)
can you show us how they stacked them with those rods
Another great series, Ian. I loved the Winchester series and this was I would say even more interesting, due to the decades and changes this rifle went through. And I have a new found respect for the French (not that I didn't respect them) because they do get an unfair rap of cowardice when that was certainly not the case. Cheers.
Is there an episode available for the FM 24 LMG?
There will be later this month.
Yay my "Only dropped once" shirt arrived today !
Awesome video! Was the development of a semi-automatic service rifle delayed or why didn't the French prioritise the production of 7.5 mm rifles a lot more from 1936 and onwards when war was beginning to seem more likely?
Ian I need your help!! I just got one of these from a old veterans e state auction and It’s in very nice shape but the wood need redone. Anyways I got it for 80 bucks!! And it’s missing the floor plate anyway to get one or make a mauser style to work! I hope you see this
Could you make a video about the MAS 36, MAS 49 and MAT 49?
Greetings from Germany!
The next one has to be the Lee Action. I've noticed the Mauser bais you know!
My guess is that cut out for pushing the ammunition off the stripper clip weakens the receiver just like it does on the 98k
It is fascinating how these guns are developed and the French always do it their way, and their good at what they do.
FORGOTTEN WEAPONS could you do more AK videos I seen the 2 on the Chinese type 56 and the North Korean type 58 both good but could you do more on the other AK Series out there
I enjoyed this series. Have you thought about putting out a book?
Yes, I am working on one.
Hey Ian have you ever heard of Berthier being converted successfully to a 7.62x51mm NATO(.308 Winchester)? I know size wise it would be easy to do but as the Berthier bolt couldn't handle the stress of rifle grenade launching, I've wondered if it could deal with a .308's inherent chamber pressure.
I know it sounds silly in that the French had so many other war prize and lend lease foreign weapons available post war for conversion experiments(Mausers, Springfields, Lee-Enfields..oh my!)but given the French's obsessive hanging on to their surplus, it would fit that they would have at least tried it.
No, that was not ever done. The Berthier was out of service before the 7.62mm NATO cartridge was developed.
Are the M34 Bertheir rifles available in the surplus market? I would mind getting my hands on one
Same here. The stripper clip conversion seemed to make it a handier rifle by far, and 7.5 French is a bit easier to find than 8mm Lebel.
Merci
i just got one at a local mom and pop pawn shop the new it was a French rifle but only charged 170 for it safe to say that thing went home with me
A couple years ago I came across one of the Remington made Berthiers in the local gun shop. Now I wish I'd bought it.
Surprised and saddened at the number of mouth breathers whining about Berthier videos. I'm enjoying the hell out of them. It's the whole point of this channel.
When in doubt grab a Berthier and modify as needed.
How many berthiers is it ??????
It could be worst.
He could make videos on every single M16 variants.
Aby Nighteater or worse he could make a video one every sa 80 rifle, or yea he already did. i miss the Bergmann ,maybe he could make some austrian pistols ?
I have a question about a Berthier I recently purchased. On the receiver it says Chatellerault Mle 1892 but on the barrel it says MAC 33. Was this gun just rebarelled? It still only has the 3 round capacity.
Yes, it was rebarreled in 1933.
Huh did Ian find an old French military supply base recently or something
The Berthier bolt and receiver looks surprisingly similar to the Mosin.
And the French would say the Mosin looks a lot like a Lebel or Gras rifle bolt.
Ian- What is the backstory behind the redesign of 7.5mm rimless? What's the "interchangeability issue with 8mm Mauser"?
I will have a video on this next week - basically, the chamber for the original 7.5x58mm round would also fit and fire 8x57 Mauser. But the massive overpressure from trying to squeeze the 8mm bullet down to 7.5mm blew up guns (and lots of war capture MG08 Maxims were in use by French troops during the postwar period, so the ammo was lying around). So they shortened the 7.5 case length to 54mm so Mauser rounds could no longer be accidentally fired.
And also too much bottom case ruptures
You are now the Peter G. Kokalis , of the 21st century. Congrats
He hit us with the one two switcheroo. We thought he was done after the interwar period berthiers but no.
What was the overall rifle situation in France at the breakout of WWII?
Just wondering - why haven't the French kept, the bullet diameter/bullet shape and just fixed the case - that way they could've reused bunch of machines and barrels :-)
is that a technical term? 'oodles'?
have you shot your m34? mine had a problem with double feeding.
No, not yet.
Bye Bye Berthier. We will miss you. 😀
-Jen
Are you being held hostage by the French or something?
ωωχ!επιτελους βλεπω ελληνα!!γεια σου φιλεεε!!
lol so funny LMAO.
'Just love how nobody said shit when he presented countless USA weapons and their variants but now that it is french it's like "OW GEE, YOU'RE BEING HELD HOSTAGE BY THE FRENCH, LOL SO FUNNY".
I know it's a joke, but it's like the seventh time I see it written in the comment section of the Berthiers's videos, so at least try to innovate bud'.
Aby Nighteater, during Ian's strings at Rock Island or James Julia, people also always joke about him being locked there.
Lefr33man, You got me.
Me is deceased.
#EnjoyDatEnglish
Maybe, tho it's kinda annoying to see that most of the top comments on theses videos are this damn jokes.
Sorry, I've seen so many asshole being dicks about weapons that aren't from USA that I get pretty easely triggered.
I expect the reason the carbines were not converted is they would be more usable as built than the Berthier rifles.
I think Ian is trying to make a point, that there's no correlation (or perhaps an inverse one) between the number of riffle variations you can produce and the ability to win wars.
Why were the R35 Lebel carbines made if this and the MAS36 were being made?
Because they had a lot of Lebels lying around.
So basically half the fire control group and half the bolt was reused. It almost seems like it would have been more efficient to just make the whole new gun
Finnish flag in frames in the top left corner... Curious, what's the painting about?
While I agree that it's interesting that they kept improving the design, do you think the French would have been better served if once they realized that there was a lot to change to just put all their efforts into a new design? Granted that's what they did with the MAS but it seems like they were always playing catch up with something they weren't exactly happy with.
I agree to a degree, but the story is pretty much the same for al the players who could afford to update their rifles after initial adoptions.
13:07 62626....Nice XD
What's the little rod off to the side of the barrel band, just behind and under the front sight?
Andrew Crump it is to accommodate bayonets I believe
That's a stacking rod, allowing you to stand 3 rifles together so they don't have to lie on the ground.
The stacking rod?
What was the benefit of the curved hook stacking rod on the calvary version?
SmashedBug That's what I was wondering too. It came from the Indo-China model so my best guess is that it was curved so as to be less "snaggy".
Can the Berthier get any sexier?
I like all the french modifications of ther outdated rifles.
Really cool shirt. French get wat to little recognition for they military. Especially when you look on WWI or on whole history of France.
U sure there r no more????
Well, there might be some .22 conversions...
And, of course, the ones adapted for use by other countries, like Poland, Thailand, Greece, and Turkey.
And experimental versions from when the design was being developed.
And the ones modified to use Chauchat magazines for balloon crews.
And one of the receiver dust covers.
Im sure is the wine thats keeping him there maybe a few hary ladies too and some good cheese and bread its all you need .
the french did sure make to many vorgotten weapons for my taste ;-)
Now i really want a M34 Berthier to the gun broker i go......