French Rifle Ammunition: 8mm Lebel and 7.5mm French
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Today we are going through the French rifle ammunition used in the Lebel, Berthier, and MAS series rifles - 8mm Lebel and 7.5mm French.
The 8mm Lebel cartridge began as simply a necked-down version of the 11mm Gras cartridge, because that cartridge was already in use in the French Navy Kropatschek rifles which were the basis of the Lebel rifle design. As a result, the Lebel cartridge was significantly tapered and had a large rim (which would cause a series of problems for use in repeating arms in later years).
The model 1886 ammunition was a flat-nosed long conical bullet, with a lead core. The bullet weighed 15g/231gr and had a muzzle velocity of 638mps/2093fps. This was updated slightly in 1891 to strengthen the case and add a crimping groove to the bullet. Designated Balle 1886M, this cartridge would be the standard for almost 10 years.
In 1898, trials of a new spitzer bullet concluded with the adoption of Balle 1886D. This was not just a spitzer bullet, but actually a solid 90/10 brass bullet instead of a lead cored bullet, as this type was simpler to manufacture. The bullet weighed 12.8g/198gr and had a muzzle velocity of 701mps/2300fps.
In 1932, a new loading was developed to give better performance in machine guns, designated Balle 1932N. This was still a spitzer, but returned to the lead core type of construction. Its bullet weighed 15.05g/232gr and had a muzzle velocity of 690mps/2265fps. It was a more powerful round than the preceding versions, and incorporated a thicker neck in the brass. This required reaming out the chambered of existing weapons to avoid overpressure when firing. Converted weapons were marked with an "N" on the barrel and receiver. It is important not to fire this ammunition in unconverted firearms!
Today on the commercial market, the primary source of 8mm Lebel ammunition is PPU (Prvi Partisan). They make a cartridge loaded basically to Balle 1886D specifications, which can be safely used in both N-converted and unconverted rifles.
In 1924, a new rimless cartridge was adopted - the 7.5x58mm. A problem quickly revealed itself, however, because 8mm Mauser ammunition could be chambered and fired in firearms made for the new 7.5mm cartridge - with potentially catastrophic results. To solve this problem, the case was shortened to 54mm in 1929, and the new standard loading was Balle 1929C. This fired a 9g/139gr bullet at 823mps/2700fps and would be the standard French rifle cartridge until the adoption of the 5.56mm FAMAS in the 1970s.
"Les Cartouches 8mm Lebel" can be ordered here: www.crepin-lebl...
I've never seen a wall socket so high up before. Fascinating.
I can beat that. My basement wall sockets are about 6.5' up the wall. Lol, the builder got lazy and didn't frame the foundation, so just put them up above ground level where the house is framed.
@@ryanwilson_canada
It will take a lot of floodwater to short your circuit.
9ft of water if that happens I have other issues lol
Must be French
@Edgar Cairo stupid message
“Everyone went to a spritzer”
Italy:
*hides in the corner*
So did The Netherlands, and Greece.
@@justforever96 Point blanc shooting range. You don’t have to adjust your sight by so much compared to a round nosed bullet. It makes shooting way easier for the average soldier that isn’t a superb marksman.
@@MrXxHunter bro let him figure out it needs to be pointy, not round, because round is like a dick and make enemy smile and laugh
@@LeMeowAu True
Paper packets tied up with string?...This is one of my favorite things.
GREY paper packages tied up with string. It wasn't so long ago that the post office would not accept parcels unless they were tied up with string.
@Mack Sarnie Except in The Sound of Music the packages were brown.
@Mack Sarnie I don't think so.
There was a time when you could ship children by us mail/postal
Note for anyone trying to reload 8mm Lebel: Do not try to full length size a 8mm Lebel cartridge. The chambers are oversized and will fireform the cartridge. Full sizing will overstretch the brass and drastically reduce case life (as well as require pesky trimming). Just use the neck sizer and reserve those cartridges for their specific guns.
This is the first time I've posted a comment on your show but I just have to say how much I enjoyed this video !!!! Really ! I learnt so much in just 18 minutes !! This is why a became a patron supporter!! Love the show, love the content, love the history ! Thank you Ian & team
Thanks!
"...logistically inferior..."
Perfect phrase, perfect description.
The ball D ammo looks so elegant, almost artistic.
I never had an appreciation for French rifles until I started watching your videos, Ian. Thankyou for the education.
@danemon8423 there’s a reason that loss gets remembered, it was pretty damn embarrassing lol
@danemon8423 bro's been quiet since this dropped
@danemon8423 the US and the French and the Japanese.
Don't you mean WW1 (not 2) at around 6:00 when talking about ball D?
Anyway great vid as usual
Yes, I did.
I always wondered why French used giant clips for their machine guns, instead of belts.
Me too, I don´t think magazines is a good Idea on a MG and a clip is even worst.
tisFrancesfault there weren’t any metal belts. The cloth belts are quite sensitive to temperature and humidity (unlike the metal clips), the belts can be linked while the gun is firing, and when using the guns as a team one does not experience a significant loss in fire sustainability. Still the French will develop linked strips for aerial and tank use during WW1.
The 8mm Lebel has a horrible case design, which does not lend itself well to feeding, besides being a rimmed round. Still, it was the first commercially successful smokeless powder round, and this changed MANY things in WWI, including uniform color, believe it or not!-John in Texas
The funny thing is the Hotchkiss company had a single link metallic belt as an option as early as 1896 but most buyers found it too expensive to buy or produce on their own.
@@TheGearhead222 it really does continue to amaze me just how fucking HORRIBLE the 8mm lebel was. I'm not sure that there is a worse caliber out there actually adopted as the primary round for a military like the Lebel was
"That translates into my ammunition falling over."
😂😂
"Sacre bleu! Mon ammunition! Elle a fait!"
Thank you Ian for taking something that I was ambivalent about (French bolt actions) and making it very interesting.
Burning Spork of Doom I echo this sentiment
Daniel Allan I got interested when watching The Mummy (1999). I was really interested in those WW1 era french firearms.
The movie had the 1886 Lebel rifle and 1873 Chamelot-Delivgne revolver (Brendan Fraser looked so badass dual wielding those things).
Can't remember exactly when it was but those Hotchkiss feed strips (with the accompanying rounds of 8mm Lebel) were common at gun shows. And coincidentally, at the same time similar Hotchkiss strips of 7.7 Arisaka were also available. I ended up with a strip of the Arisaka ammunition, it came is some sort of hard cardboard case.
Oh man, really hoping you guys end up doing more ammunition videos like this. Thanks for the content.
Is there some kind of TH-cam award for the most civil comment section? Forgotten Weapons has seriously got to be one of the best.
An armed society is a polite society.. haha
Shut the fuck up tom
A wise man does not argue with Gun Jesus.
Thanks for the video on the French ammunition. Always looking forward to your videos that cover ammunition in more than passing detail.
I love to see this kind of content on your channel. I enjoy the way you explain the 'dry' basics behind stuff like the absolut chaos the French ammunition poses.
Thank you very buch Iaan for this!! My dad "had" a couple of 8mm lebel berthier and never much ammo. Lately ive been hunting for ammo and didnt know anything about lebel, this video has helped me a ton!!! Thanks for pointing out PPU 8x50R lebel ammo and specs between N and D. I literally just saw 2 boxes of these at my local gun store but didnt buy them because of uncertainty. You just cleared up my confusion!
Great overview. More stuff like this, please.
Wrapped up in paper tied up with string, this is one of Ian's favorite things!
Another great vid Ian! So watchable!!
Native english speakers trying to say something french is one of the best things to ear when you're a native french speaker, Ian will always make me giggle with his pronouciation!
Awesome video!
PPU factory is next town over for me so if you want i can hook you up
Tell them to start making 7.65mm French Long! :)
Tell them that it's impossible to find today in France! and impossible to import :/
Good one Ian. Keep up the WW1 stuff. Vietnam War-era and Cold War stuff appreciated too.
the content just gets better as Forgotten Weapons progresis. Thanks.
Now this is my jam
ammunition history ASMR 10/10
Thanks ian for putting such effort in describing french firearms :) keep up the good work, as a frenchman, it teaches me much !
Thanks for using metric too
Correct me if I'm wrong - didn't you by chance shoot "incorrect" ammo in one of your old Turkish Berthier rifle videos? It seems as if you were having trouble racking the bolt into battery.
Yes, back before I know better. :)
Nice :D
Next we know that Bannerman conversion Mosin-Nagant might have well blown up in your face (I'm glad it didn't).
I've got 100 rounds of boxer primed 7.5 MAS factory ammo and reloading dies to reload it ....... now I just need to acquire a MAS 36. Nothing weird about that, right?
When the Ian uploads a video, and the subject isn't guns~
That's AMMORE~
brown paper packages tied up with string, these are a few of my favorite things
When the dog bites , when the bee stings, when I'm feeling sad.
I simply remember my favorite things.
And the I don't fell so bad.
I don't feel so bad neither.
Ian - You have any interest in .30-06 military cartridges made in France for the M1 Garands/Browning MGs we gave them? I have a large collection of various headstamps. Not well thought of ammo I have absolutely no intention of ever firing it.
Great post. Let's have more ammo history. Peace and thanks.
Great French Ammunition collection Ian!😀🔫🗼🇫🇷
Will you do a video on the Hotchkiss m1914 machine gun?
Eventually, yes.
I also like to see one on the Arsenal Puteaux APX 1905 and the St. Etienne Mle 1907 machine guns, if you get your hands on some of them, because they are more of a forgotten weapon, than the Hotchkiss M 1914.
It was captain Desaleux, and the 8mm Lebel balle D was the first spitzer bullet in the world.
Any documentation on how they tied the string? Packaging that much ammunition they (include the Russians) must have had a few tricks.
I believe it was called the W&OL: the Women & Orphans Line. After the ammo comes off the production line it gets sent to the packaging line where the women and orphan kids put them in clips, wrap em in paper, stamp em then tie em up with string.
While some stupidly assembled 300 BO loads can chamber in a .223 gun, 1) this usually requires stupid levels of force AND a weak crimp. (This isn't the high tech kind of telescoping ammo, it's the shoddily made kind) 2) these are only due to cartridges loaded with projectiles not intended for the caliber, most notably 30 carbine bullets, and the 147 grainers intended for 7.62 nato. For both of those projectiles, the ogive of the bullet can mimic the shoulder of a .223/556 case but generally very over length.
Simply using appropriate projectiles completely alleviates this potential risk. With the right projectiles, the bullet would hit the lands with the bold a good quarter inch out of battery. I always make a point of comparing any load side by side with a .223 and making sure there is no way to chamber it incorrectly.
IMO, this is worth being careful about but the risk is largely overblown. There is far more real world risk of people putting 20 ga in a 12, and 9mm in a 40 S&W, both of which happen quite frequently. I practice having distinct magazines for 300 BO and avoid storing the guns & accessories in the same places. I also avoid mix and matching on a single range trip, at least without a little effort at keeping them separate.
Gear that has room for human error has room for improvement. But that said, I can't help but think that the people who get this wrong would tend to get other stuff wrong too, and will hurt themselves one way or another.
Some like French wine and cheeses. Ian loves French ammo.
Gun Jesus has Mle1917 clips. Revelations is at hand!
Thank you for your videos on the Berthier rifle and this one for its ammo. I have my father's Berthier (never known it to be fired and I am 55) and just dug it out of my closet. It is a "Delaunay Belleville Mle 1907-15 (EDB 1917)" with "N" stampings. While the rifle 100% needs a cleaning I think it is intact. I removed the bolt, the firing pin and spring - they all appear to be in good order. Granted before even trying to fire a round I'll take it to a proper gunsmith so they can professionally inspect and clean it. I think I should be able to find one of those here in Texas 😉
Anyways, I got to wondering "what ammo" and this video is super awesome and I loved how you showed the Prvi Partizan ammo box ❤
Ian-Great video as always. Didn't the French also perfect the jacketed round? Remember reading that awhile back. John in Texas
That problem with 8x57 in the 7.5x58mm chamber reminds me of an article I read about 30 years ago, in Guns & Ammo, I think, about a guy who managed to chamber a round of .250 Savage in a .243 chamber and blow up his pre-64 Model 70. About a year ago I had the opportunity to pick up a very nice Ruger M77 in .250 Savage for $450 but I passed on it, because if I owned it, I'd spend the rest of my waking life worrying about accidentally chambering a .250 in my.243.
Désaleux, that's a hard one. Roughly phonetized in English : Dayzalu. Thanks for all that content as usual, higly interesting !
Why don't you pop by Belgium one of these days, FN's still running proud and there's still is a very renown arms manufacturer's school in Liège.
That and the beer, cheese and chocolate of course, but that comes without saying !
Ian's marketing scheme for French firearms has got me all hyped up looking for a Lebel Rifle to get haha
So.....the French literally used M16 rifles in WW1. Pretty cool.
👍🤣😂😂
And won
I guess the French actually had something in common with the Austrians back then; brown paper packages tied up with string were things that they both considered a favourite.
Superb info.
Hello very nice video ^^
Maybe you forgot to say that balle D have one major inovation : a boat tail
The biggest problem with the 8mm lebel isn't that it has a rim and is tapered, it has a double taper which means it would never work in a box magazine
Hi, guys.
I'm a big fan of Forgotten Weapons and I'm a super-huge-mega fan of military aircraft.
I know that the French used "Vickers" machine guns on their WW1 fighters because they didn't have a better, locked breach, machine gun for synchronizing to shoot through the propeller disk. My question is... did they use the .303 British round in their fighters or use Vickers machine guns using 8mm Lebel? Either one would make sense. If they used the .303 they could use common stocks of ammo with the Brits and, if they used 8mm, they could depend on their own ammunition stores without depending on the Brits. I'll be ding-danged if I can find a definitive answer to this question and would really like to know; one way or another.
Thanks!
Chauchat is a prime example of how poorly the 8mm Lebel is suited for box magazines.
Where were you shooting this? I notice the Finnish flag on the picture on the wall. (Just by some coincidence, as I type this, my stereo switched to some Sibelius on a various artist playlist. Spooky.)
The I was in Finland, one of you cool Finns gave me a hand-drawn pencil and watercolor painting of a Suomi, a Lahti pistol, and a Finnish battle flag. I just hung it up, but you can only see the bottom bit in this camera frame.
Sounds like Ian is learning French :)
Privi is great if you're into older European rifles. Theyre my one source of 7.5x55 swiss, and they're very affordable.
Very interesting videos, Ian . I did not know some of these details. Seriously 7.5× 54 was a excellent cartridge.
How many wars did they win with this ammo?
I have some 1960’s French manufacture 30-06, which has the groove as well. Did they do that on all rifle ammo?
Dont shoot this. Cases crack.
Interesting. My older prvi ammunition does not have the grove you showed.
Did you ever find a source of RSC clips at all? The one I have is in meh shape and has poor cartridge retention (yet somehow feeds just fine most of the time)
TheGoldenCaulk Is anyone working on 3D printing RSC clips? I know of people doing that for Remington Model 8s and other rifles with hard to find clips and it seems to work fine.
Nope, have not found a source yet.
+Carolus Rex & +Forgotten Weapons I guess we'll just have to make our own!
Funnily enough, the first time, you mispronounced Désaleux. You ended up saying "désolé," french for sorry :)
This guy keeps following me around asking if I have 8mm ordinance
As a Cartridge collector I've been hoping for Ian to do a video on cartridges!... Awesome
Wait, does this mean we're finally getting shooting footage of an rsc 1917?
Yeah, desolee means "Sorry" if I remember correctly, but a pretty easy mistake nonetheless.
Eggs toast and forgotten weapons, the best way to start your day
🎶The best part of waking up🎶
17:37 I think the French army kept using the 7.5 in their FRF1 for quite some times after they had the FA-MAS.
Your right but technically speaking it it was use by the gendarmerie not by the regular army
It says a lot for Ian that I don't shoot, also I'm unlikely to ever shoot a WW1 French rifle, and on top of that I'm unlikely to buy ammunition for my rifle that I don't own, and YET I can happily sit and watch an 18 minute long video about French cartridges of the late 19th / early 20th century.
Not only that, but I enjoyed it.
Ian is one of the very best commentators on TH-cam. I think I would enjoy listening to him read a laundry list or a recipe for "instant water".
BTW. I have the best recipe for instant water. It goes something like... "Take empty vessel. Fill with clean, cool, water. Season to taste then drink." My recipe sounds silly but Ian could make it epic!
Pretty strong ammo...
I have a K11 in 7.5x55mm and a MAS 36 in 7.5x54mm. I really like 7.5x54 its fun to reload and uses the 7.62x54R crimper.
Many people say that the 7.5x54mm M1929 MAS was just an unlicensed copy of 7.5x55mm Swiss.
Just like the 7.5x57mm M1924 MAS was an unlicensed copy of 8x57mm Mauser.
Oh those clever French fellows!
@@MrReded69 will a MAS 36 chamber and shoot 7.5 x 55 Swiss? I am having the Dickens of a time trying to find 7.5x54 in a soft point to use for hunting. There is plenty of FMJ on the market right now, but nothing for hunting.
Ian, should you read this than I need to let you know that I have learned a great deal on different weapons and how they work. if I hadn't have found this channel, I would still be the ordinary kid at school. thank you for educating me
yours sincerely,
Beast0Gaming
I would have loved having access to this in high school, sadly no youtube in the late nineties (so old).
Enjoy not being ordinary, it's the way to go. :)
I looked at the video name and was like 'how the hell do you make an 18.5 minute video about nothing but two rifle cartridges?'
At the end of the video I'm still glued to the screen...
Good job as always, Ian. You manage to make nearly forgotten trivia about obscure details intriguing and exciting. Hats off.
How was velocity measured that precisely back then?
maybe it was measured by how fast the bullet hit the target, with a timer.
Carler1 using a ballistic pendulum
You send a man with a stopwatch to the end of the range. He starts the stopwatch when he sees the muzzle flash, then stops it when the bullet hits him.
There are many ways... by WW2 coil loops were in use. However a good camera and 64 or better frames per second will capture a bullet in flight. Put a high contract scale card behind it and you can do it all day long. Its what they did in WW2 with 20mm and up ammo.
I read about one method that was devised around WWI, though I think it was only used with artillery shells. It used a long strip of paper tape running between two reels at a known speed and two double wire screens set a known distance apart. When the shell passed through the first screen it completed an electrical circuit, which put a mark on the paper tape. Passing through the second screen completed the circuit again, placing a second mark. Velocity could then be calculated from the distance between the two marks.
how do 7.5 french rifles handle modifications to 7.62 nato? I've read that MAS-36 rifles redone for it work but not very well
If done properly, it can be fine - the French made some experimental 49/56 rifles in 7.62 NATO.
I bet logistics was a nightmare for the French during the wars.
I press play on the video for the French pronunciations and stay for the knowledge drop!
But where can you get 7.5x54 now? I'm wanting a Mas 36 rifle, but the lack of available ammo is the only thing stopping me
PPU
Awsome, thank you!
I have a MAS 36. it's a little gritty, but it's reliable as anything
Mobius95 -PPU makes it, probably Sellier & Bellot, possibly Hornady in their military line (they make 8x56R and 1 or 2 other obscure ones), and i think Norma used to make it in their euro military line. Graf & Sobs has it too i think. Somebody online had it for about $18 a box not long ago.
@@troy9477 A couple years later there is plenty of FMJ ammo available, but does anyone know how to get a soft point for hunting?
So finally, a good source for 8mm Lebel for rifles without the N mark. Can you get PPU ammo shipped to California? Also anyone have a source for Berthier clips?
Scott Ruggels - Order your ammo for Kali soon. I believe the new regs take effect Jan 1
Troy is correct. Order it now.
Funny how Cali legalizes Cannabis yet creates some of the CRAZIEST gun/ammo laws! They even drove out Ronnie Barrett's company! Crazy!!!
So they had brass bullets instead brass balls
I wonder if anyone tried to invent something that could "capture" the smoke cause by black powder. Kinda like a suppressor but instead it just prevents the smoke from leaving the bore, but lets the bullet pass.
I'd imaging that would cause horrendous fouling.
RichCommander something along the lines of an MP5SD type suppresser, with a wire mesh wrap soaked in high viscosity oil would probably work. But only for a few rounds, then it would be useless again.
A hoover taped to the end of the barrel would work. Definitely.
Actually it was a more suitable task to invent a smokeless powder ;)
Ragnar I say that could do a decent job... and then probably catch on fire.
PPU, making all the fun stuff.
Interesting history behind this cartridge, had no idea it had that much development and changes.
I really appreciate this video on cartridge development. Do you think you may do such a thing again in the future? I certainly would love more like this.
intéressant merci
Great ibfo. I didn't realize there were quite so many versions of the 8x50. The 7.5 is an excellent modern cartridge. I got bit by the MAS 49/56 bug awhile back, so now i want one. I think we can have them in Kali, although the grenade launcher sights would probably have to come off. Great round though, with very usable ballistics. Great video as always. Thank you
Not the sight. The spigot or spigot sleeve.
Always enjoy your efforts in pronouncing French words :D Long live Gun Jesus
Have you ever seen the ones with wood casing¿
Anyone else love the look of older round nosed early smokeless and black powder cartridges
Very informative, Ian.
Have you done or considered a similar video on the different ammunition used by the Japanese?
Of all the gun bloggers I have watched, you are by far the best spoken and most knowledgeable I have seen.
Can you do a video on the M1 Garands chambered in 7.62mm? I've never seen one but I know they exist.
I actually own one of these Skallia. The only unique feature is that a barrel with the .308/7.62 has been used and a "block" has been inserted into the clip well to take up the extra room. You can use standard M1 clips. If desired a new 30-06 chambered barrel can be used, the block removed, and you would then have a standard Garand.
Any idea why they didn't keep the bullet and just change the case ? Seems to me the bullet was just fine it was the case that was the problem and it would've made it all much cheaper and easier - you can reuse old equipment - you dont need to make new barrels (just rechamber) and so on
Thank you for putting the time into making these videos. They are well presented and informative.
Wow. Thanks Ian!
another great video! thanks, i never new how much innovation the french were putting into their bullets.
Hold up the French bullets were called “Ball D”?!? Insert joke here
Do you have any .32 French long?
I have run into some old 8mm Lebel ammunition and when pulled apart (primers were no longer viable), the bullet had a "step or heel" of smaller diameter where it entered the case mouth. Where, in the timeline did this type fall?
Jean Huon makes some great books I wish there would be English translations published.
Mr9Guns Jean Huon is a great writer on firearms books in France.