The more I learn about french firearms, the more fascinating I find them to be. Until you started this series, I had almost no interest in these rifles. Thank you.
So i was. Frankly the Berthier system didn't interested me before. Indeed this system deserves an comprehensive presentation, and Ian deserves to be warmly thanked !
@@HectorGonzalez-fz6ws BS! USSR had a modern military starting in 1941-42. Hitler bit off a WHOLE lot more than Germany could chew. It wasnt the failure of Russian military power that ended the Soviet occupation of eastern Europa.
One of my earliest memories of handling a firearm is opening the bolt on a Berthier Mle 16 carbine. There used to be a shop in Arvada Colorado called "Stan's Military Guns" that sold militaria and milsurp guns. I Started collecting helmets around 10 years of age, and he had a few of these carbines at any given time before the Renaissance of these guns recently. This would have been around 1995 and if I remember they were like $125. SMLEs were not much more.
They were in service in the CRS (Compagnies Républicaines de Sécurité) until the 80's they've been replaced by Ruger AC-556 (Mousqueton AMD 556) then since 2008 replaced by the .HK G36C The buttstock was efficient on protester's faces, but it's above all because the muzzle grenade launcher (Tromblon Lance Grenade)used to throw tear gas grenades
And confuse regulators with a fixed magazine bolt action using a woefully outdated cartridge sharing the same name with the M-16 a quintessentially modern rifle.
Very interesting to see all the mods and improvements. Pretty interesting series of rifles and carbines. Good example of maximizing the utility of what you have while developing something else. I think the ammo change was to use a longer, heavier bullet with a slightly different nose for machine guns. I guess we will see that in the forthcoming video. Great video as always. Thank you
The French were still using/producing Berthier carbines in 1939, but let's talk about Lee Enfields, 1906 Sprinfields, Kar-98s, mozins... Every major military started WW2 with bolt action rifles anyway.
It's not so much about the bolt action, but more about the specifics of the gun in question. Combine that with a general misunderstanding of modern infantry doctrine by especially France (which is kinda ironic, considering that basically all the theoretical development of the combined arms concept came out of France and the UK), and you have a rather big mess. These technological differences only really start to make a difference when you get into a war of attrition where your enemy not only gets to outproduce you (and get that production to the front, because superior supply networks), but also manages to be a step ahead in terms of technology.
actually America started the war with the Garand, it was just still being issued when germany touched poland and everybody's knickers finally got twisted. problem was, the version they were producing was the gas trap, which we all know was later revised into a direct gas port rifle. so they had to bring them all back to the factory for tinkering.
Mirdarion France and the UK stood for a lot of theories about Combined arms. The leading country in armoured warfare during the interwar period was the Soviet union. It was from them (still during the interwar period) that the germans learned how to set up a armoured brigade and there was a lot of practical experimentation between the two (that took place in the Soviet union as Germany was prohibited to have tanks by the Versailles treaty).
+Lavrentivs The Soviets had no clue about combined arms though, that was something they painfully learned from the Germans during the war (the Soviets were stuck with the idea of using tanks like traditional cavalry at the start of the war, which the Germans quickly abused as soon as handheld AT weaponry like the Faustpatrone became available - it was only then that the Soviets combined their armoured divisions with infantry supplements). The idea of combining air force, infantry, and cavalry (tanks) into cooperating groups of units that supported each other was developed by Britain and France during the interwar period, which is what I referred to as ironic, because the French military didn't keep up with their own strategical theories, unlike the Germans.
Mirdarion the Soviets pretty much invented Blitzkrieg. They invented the whole operational command level. The Germans copied the Soviets not the other way around. Every nation had combined arms tactics but some doctrines were better than others
Your presentation and verbal presentation are really showing a lot of improvement. I could not care less about French riffles, and yet I've watched every single one of these videos. Bravo, sir.
Just so you understand, just because the Russians used it does NOT mean it isn't outdated. Outdated describes the Mosin in general for 99% of its service life. Let alone its cartridge.
Tequila Cured Salmon Carpaccio With Vodka Foam - Don't forget 303 British. And Siamese Mauser. And i believe 7.7mm Japanese is a virtual copy of 303 Brit, and their 6.5x50 mm is rimmed too
After WW 2, a lot of people would hide a lot of guns in Attics, basements, closets. A Breither carbine was one of rural folk favorite's. It was. Small, a good deer rifle. In small conflicts, people would still use this over AKs and ARs in dirty and dusty climates. Taking pot shots, sniper, getting hit by this round would put you down for good. What the use of this carbine was the lack of clips, unlike the Italians, who mass - produce their clips. The French supply was slowly dry out during the 60's. Between the movies, French police, and micro wars, the clips were gone.
Hey, Ian. Thanks for all the great videos. Do you think you can connect the bayonet when you have it available? Especially whenever it comes to French rifles, i'm sure there are some people out their who don't realise how long their bayonets where, when connected to the barrel. Thanks.
Prime example: Around 1932 instead of replacing their Hotchkiss M1914 machine guns they developed a higher pressure 8mm Lebel round and rechambered the guns for it (Balle N). As opposed to rechambering them for the new 7.5mm MAS cartridge and converting them to belt feed. To add a further level of wasted funds and resources, they also modified Berthiers and Lebels to use the new Balle N. All this after the 7.5mm MAS was adopted.
@@MrReded69 Even crazier is that they had ISSUED the RSC 1917 self-loading rifle already at the end of WWI. They had over 20 years to develop and deploy a semi-automatic standard infantry rifle.
What's crazier than that? They took all the surviving RSC 1917 and 1918 rifles and instead of modifying the RSC 1917s to the 1918 standard that fixed most of its flaws, they plugged the gas systems and issued them to Colonial troops as straight pulls!
Man my Mle 1892 is sort of a mutt. It got some of the upgrades such as the sling bar and clearing rod and balle N stamp but it missed out on a few of the others. Excellent series!
"Learn Colors for Kids with Color Tire Educational video for Children Songs for Babies" is in you're recommended videos, that educational category isn't doing you many favours...
The metal was painted black, like in the one in the vid. The stock was given a heavy brown varnish. This was done by the French themselves. The rifle has been in my family from WW1, and the only modification that was done was to recrown the muzzle back in the early 1950's. My father used it to hunt deer, and back then it had no collector value. What I'm trying to point out is that these rifles were given paint jobs much earlier than the 1930's.
The French government went out of its way to refurbish every rifle but did they ever think to preserve some in original condition for a museum or something?
Some of them escaped to refurbishment in private collections, and also in regimentals collections. Before 1939 french firearms regulation was pretty cool, any legal age people without criminal record neither tutleage nor guardianship, could own such a weapon, or plenty :D
Ian. Hotchkiss barrel LENGTH? did you mean Hotchkiss barrel LIFE by any chance. That would seem to me to be a better reason for changing the cartridge.
I find it kind funny that you said in 1919 a military shouldn't be using a rimmed cartridge and the British used one until the late 40s early 50s and the Russians still you 7.62x45 rimmed to this day. just an interesting thing to think about.
Here's a strange one I got a carbine built on a chatelaraut(can barely make out anything there) mle 1892 that is missing only the 1927 wooden insert. Got a date on the barrel of 1919 but it's force matched.
Seems like more effort went into deleting and patching the cleaning rod than needed. Might as well leave it and allocate resources to more important endeavors.
Very informative. When were the long arms phased out? Was the rebuild program the same? I have a rifle that displays most of these modifications. No sling cross bar, "A" marked sights and gradient relief. All other modifications are present.
Did the british also use a black paint on their enfields at some point? I remembrer seeing that and I wondered if a bubba had painted the gun or if it was original.
Late (post WWII) production Lee-Enfields were phosphated and then stove enameled with a paint called "Suncorite". It's extremely tough, but it looks a bit crude compared with earlier finishes.
My No.4 has it but my No.4's stock can also be used to signal passing aircraft and it came with a No.5 backsight on it, even if all the serialised parts match. Most unaltered wartime No.4s don't appear to be painted. I'm not sure what happened to mine but if I had to guess I'd say it was refurbed from parts postwar, maybe for cadets, maybe by a private owner. Still functions like a charm.
rossmum I always assumed all No.4 were painted. But in any case it could have been painted in post war service as quite a few Mk1 got upgraded. The No.5 rearsight is weird that won't line up at all, are you sure it is a No.5? They only go to 800yds. Non-matching rear sights are not uncommon, as they are a component which could break, and they could easily be swapped in and out for target sights, which is what you see quite often on rifles which found their way into the cadets.
My March of 1918 1892/16 carbine still has the cut out for the stacking rod, no SN cut out in the handguard, no N marking, and matches 100%, I’m curious where it went
That whole Gras Rifle made in the 1870s, converted to 8mm in 1914, then converted again to the balle N during the interwar period is still some of the thriftiest thing I ever heard.
Question that may be stupid. why replace a functional bolt action rifle like the Berhier with a new and Born-obsolete gun like the MAS 36? why not just give in the program the old rifle at the support infantry and focus on the developing of a new semiauto rifle?
Actually if you look at the last iteration of these rifles... did they have any downside? I mean what can one expect from a bolt action rifle but I seriously wonder how they stack up to something like a Karabiner 98k which was afterall the main infantry rifle of the Wehrmacht throughout WW2 :/
Why didn't the French rechamber the Berthier to 7.5x54mm? It seems like it would be a sensible thing to do when one came in for repairs since the military wanted to shift from 8mm Lebel to 7.5mm anyways. Was it bureauocracy or were they just not expected to remain in service for very long after 7.5x54mm was adopted?
Google lead me to finding the Mle 07/15m34. It looks like the gun had to almost completely be reworked to fire the 7.5x54mm round, so you are correct. I initially thought it would be a matter of a new bolt head, new barrel, and new clips. However, the cartridge geometry of 8mm Lebel is very different from 7.5mm, so I suspect that it necessitated essentially an entire rework of the rifle. It isn't like going from 5.56 to .300 Blackout, that's for sure. :P
Why did en block clips fall out of favour? There were many types when bolt action rifles were invented, but non of the major WW11 types used it. They seem like a great idea to me to speed up the loading process.
Minute Man Maybe because en block clips are also capable of making a whole rifle unreliable. These clips themselves act as removable feedlips for the gun, so if a clip bends out of shape it at least might be not able to be loaded, or it could potentially cause unreliable feeding. In charger-loaded guns the stripper clip can not affect the feeding unless it breaks or bends something in the rifle, and that I think is rather unelikely. That's my assumption inspired by the issue of Gevehr 1888 that was discussed in a video made by C&Rsenal
Hey Ian, with Berthier rifles how common is it to find one with most of the upgrades such as the sliver of wood where the cleaning rod wood go but still remain in 8mm lebel after ww1? I just bought one and is able to chamber an 8mm blank with ease, but had a tag that said it was chambered for 7.5.
They are usually found with the 1920s and 30s updates. The only ones that are in 7.5mm are the M34s, which are quite distinctive once you know what to look for. I have a video on the M34 as well, which will show you all of it.
Thanks for posting. I have a Berthier that i've been trying to learn more about! I found the serial on the barrel and the stock are the same, but the bolt is different. Would it be common to have the bolt replaced?
Maybe this is a cynical take, but I could not help thinking "big arms re-development program. A whole slew of changes. Only 3.5 of them (the 2 sight upgrades, the barrel change for ball n, the black laquor finish) are functional. A bunch of em (painting the serial number on the hand guard, then cutting a slot in the hand guard, then plugging the cleaning rod slot) seem completely pedantic & trivial. Somehow the pedantic & trivial ones got the most attention & focus" To be clear I can see how such a thing happens ; I make the exact same sequence of "beaurocratically being more concerned with trivial details than things that actually matter" constantly, & I imagine that proclivity to beaurocratic stupidity only gets amplified when looking at a large, old military organisation. But damn
Why would you not be building/producing this rifle in 1939 this is an awesome little bolt action carbine I wouldn't want it in a full sized rifle configuration but as a carbine its badass I like it more than any other bolt action carbine of the time period other than the shortened smle's that retained the nose cap and I really like the m38 mosins too but there's just something about the way a 5 round berthier carbine looks that makes me really like it and they're just damn small and handy I want one really bad
I am simple man...i see Gun Jesus has new video...i like....then i watch to see what todays sermon is about.....have never seen one that i have had to un-like
"Modern army should not be using rimmed cartridge" Meanwhile in Russia: T-14 Armatas, MiG 35s, (limited supply of) AN-94s... and standard full-powered rifle cartridge is still 136year old 7,62x54R, one of the first smokeless spitzer rounds in the world :D
My own MLE M16 Berthier has me puzzled, as it is completely devoid of serial numbers anywhere on the gun. It is chambered for 7.5 French and has no manufacturer's mark. I don't suppose anyone has any thoughts?
With the exception of the "balle N" modification this seems to be a whole lot of expense and fidgeting around with an outdated system with little actual improvement - in my humble opinion..
Max $$$$$ was the reason. You must remember that WWI devastated France. Not only was most of the fighting done on French soil, they lost practically an entire generation of their young men and the country came out virtually bankrupt. Whatever these small arms updates cost it was nothing compared to the developement and manufacture of all new guns. In another of Ian's videos , I believe the MAS 36, he explains their post war new gun developement plans. They did have a plan, it just didn't have the highest priority. Heard of the Maginot Line? Good idea or not, most of France's defense budget went there. And then that little thing called The Great Depression, came a long. If you have been following Forgotten Weapons for a bit, you will know that most of the major European countries were fiddling with semiauto rifles just as WW1 broke out and none went into major production or were really followed up on after the war. All about $$$$$. Rebuilding their economys came first.
When you talking about Saint-Quentin Suiza, i think you made an error. There was a private company called Hispano Suiza who made multiple things for the french army like canon, motors, etc....
The idea of retrofitting rifles is to save money and improve what you already have. Why would they go through the expense and trouble of filling the knocker rod slot and the front band replacement instead of throwing away the knocker and replacing it with a cleaning rod that was needed any how? Quick, Simple, Cheap. The 3 words governments love.
It was mostly because it was cheaper at short and middle term to to refurbish the tremendous quantity of rifles available. As a lot of european countries, France was economicaly almost bled dry, and the most north east territory's part (where coal mines and steel industry were concentrated ) in ruins. The RSC modèle 1917 was so poorly designed that J.C. Garand didn't even try to take any inspiration on its feeding and operating system. But honnestly, even you're right about some flaws, it was designed in emergency, in a economy of war context and so on... It was not a total failure.
Wow the French did all that development and work just to loose so quickly in WW2. Damn that was how effective Germany were in their tactics and development compared to everyone else.
if the germans were so smart and effective, why did they lose the war, twice? i've been to europe many times, german doods are just as squirrely as french ones. (the french have better manners) it's easy to win a fight when you come up from behind and sucker punch someone, which is excatly what happened when they invaded, and they still lost. seems like a classic case of the germans beliving their own bullshit. tsk tsk
Asa Dunbar to clarify I mean they were so effective at the start of the war, despite loosing WW1 they managed to rebuild enough to execute their over the top holiday though Europe in 1939, it's clear why they lost again but it's still interesting to see their initial success.
It´s the tactics and strategy more then the weapons. some. anyone who planed their defence for a war like the great war, would have a nasty suprice and not much time to think when they hade to defend their country from a blitzkriege.
So in 1932,instead of converting the carbines into the new rimless cartridge standardized in 1929, they converted them to the rimmed cartridges meant for the heavy machine gun? French logic at its best!
In your opinion why did the French "reinvent the wheel" with regards to small arms post 1918? With such rifle cartridges as the .30-06 and the whole family of Mauser rifle cartridges why WASTE money developing a new cartridge. Why WASTE money developing a new bolt action rifle when you could have all the Mauser Model 98 rifles you wanted simply for the taking? Just would like to hear your thoughts.
TheWozWizard you really don't understand the French, do you ? Their egos won't let them adopt anyone elses systems so they *have* to invent their own, no matter how wasteful or stupid that may be. Drive a French car (preferably a Citroen) & see how long it takes you to find controls that fall instantly to hand in any other vehicle. ;)
Kevin, I thought that was the reason but I just want some independent confirmation that I was not being unfair to the French by thinking that. To a lesser degree the U. S. military also suffers for "not invented here" disease.
there is an advantage to using proprietary ammo for your country. if the germans and french used the same ammo, then the germans could just capture it and use it for themselves. i forget who, may have been one of the scandinavian countries that used 7.62x53r cartridges, i can only assume, for this very purpose. same reason today why russian guns aren't chambered for nato cartridges.
just read up 7.62x54r and the 53r are actually the same cartridge, finns rounded down when russians rounded up. still tho, it makes sense not to use the same ammo as a neighboring hostile country.
Asa Dunbar but that argument goes both ways; sure the Germans could then capture and use French ammo, but then the French could also then capture and use German ammo!
![[UNCUT] “บอสณวัฒน์” ลากไส้!! ใครหนุนหลัง "แม่ตั๊ก ป๋าเบียร์" I คนดังนั่งเคลียร์ I 30 ก.ย. 67](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/QlD7mU2KKRk/mqdefault.jpg)
Patch 4.11 ---
Clearing rod removed
Accuracy improved
Bug's with stock craking fixed
XD Fallout 4 mod page
EThan spaziani right handed bolt
The more I learn about french firearms, the more fascinating I find them to be. Until you started this series, I had almost no interest in these rifles. Thank you.
So i was.
Frankly the Berthier system didn't interested me before.
Indeed this system deserves an comprehensive presentation, and Ian deserves to be warmly thanked !
Ditto. Ian is converting me to a Francophile.
Like for the Devin Townsend Project logo
Haha, thank you.
*Once you go French, you won't go anywhere else* HONHONHON
"A modern army should not be using a rimmed cartridge"
*Great Britain has left the chat*
So did Russia
Russia didn't have a modern army
@@HectorGonzalez-fz6ws BS! USSR had a modern military starting in 1941-42. Hitler bit off a WHOLE lot more than Germany could chew. It wasnt the failure of Russian military power that ended the Soviet occupation of eastern Europa.
Draw me like one of your french guns
*honhonhonhonhonhon
john hancock You win everything.
john hancock (honhonhon in gunfire)
One of my earliest memories of handling a firearm is opening the bolt on a Berthier Mle 16 carbine. There used to be a shop in Arvada Colorado called "Stan's Military Guns" that sold militaria and milsurp guns. I Started collecting helmets around 10 years of age, and he had a few of these carbines at any given time before the Renaissance of these guns recently. This would have been around 1995 and if I remember they were like $125. SMLEs were not much more.
I have read that these Berthier carbines were still in active use with French police departments well into the 1970s.
They were in service in the CRS (Compagnies Républicaines de Sécurité) until the 80's they've been replaced by Ruger AC-556 (Mousqueton AMD 556) then since 2008 replaced by the .HK G36C
The buttstock was efficient on protester's faces, but it's above all because the muzzle grenade launcher (Tromblon Lance Grenade)used to throw tear gas grenades
Congrats on recently reaching another Patreon goal! You earned it!
Hey there
The Bayonet is as long as the barrel
sufficient
We're not compensating or anything like that, honest.
Germans are pretty thicc
AssasinTacos Dude, when you’re conscripted to effectively *poke* a man to death with a pointy thing, separation is everything.
if you want to confuse the shit out of an average gun guy, tell them you have a Tulle made M16.
OK?
And confuse regulators with a fixed magazine bolt action using a woefully outdated cartridge sharing the same name with the M-16 a quintessentially modern rifle.
Very interesting to see all the mods and improvements. Pretty interesting series of rifles and carbines. Good example of maximizing the utility of what you have while developing something else. I think the ammo change was to use a longer, heavier bullet with a slightly different nose for machine guns. I guess we will see that in the forthcoming video. Great video as always. Thank you
The French were still using/producing Berthier carbines in 1939, but let's talk about Lee Enfields, 1906 Sprinfields, Kar-98s, mozins... Every major military started WW2 with bolt action rifles anyway.
It's not so much about the bolt action, but more about the specifics of the gun in question. Combine that with a general misunderstanding of modern infantry doctrine by especially France (which is kinda ironic, considering that basically all the theoretical development of the combined arms concept came out of France and the UK), and you have a rather big mess.
These technological differences only really start to make a difference when you get into a war of attrition where your enemy not only gets to outproduce you (and get that production to the front, because superior supply networks), but also manages to be a step ahead in terms of technology.
actually America started the war with the Garand, it was just still being issued when germany touched poland and everybody's knickers finally got twisted. problem was, the version they were producing was the gas trap, which we all know was later revised into a direct gas port rifle. so they had to bring them all back to the factory for tinkering.
Mirdarion France and the UK stood for a lot of theories about Combined arms. The leading country in armoured warfare during the interwar period was the Soviet union. It was from them (still during the interwar period) that the germans learned how to set up a armoured brigade and there was a lot of practical experimentation between the two (that took place in the Soviet union as Germany was prohibited to have tanks by the Versailles treaty).
+Lavrentivs The Soviets had no clue about combined arms though, that was something they painfully learned from the Germans during the war (the Soviets were stuck with the idea of using tanks like traditional cavalry at the start of the war, which the Germans quickly abused as soon as handheld AT weaponry like the Faustpatrone became available - it was only then that the Soviets combined their armoured divisions with infantry supplements).
The idea of combining air force, infantry, and cavalry (tanks) into cooperating groups of units that supported each other was developed by Britain and France during the interwar period, which is what I referred to as ironic, because the French military didn't keep up with their own strategical theories, unlike the Germans.
Mirdarion the Soviets pretty much invented Blitzkrieg. They invented the whole operational command level. The Germans copied the Soviets not the other way around. Every nation had combined arms tactics but some doctrines were better than others
I never knew how much I didn't know about WWI and interwar French cartridge rifles. Fascinating stuff!
Just pick up one of this Petite beauties. I love it. Ty for all the info. Love your content, Thank you Gun Jesus.
9:37 "not going to rewrite this"
That made me laugh a good deal. Long story short kids, always have captions on!
Looks nice and compact, something I can appreciate
The "Pregnant Guppy" has enough odd features, I think it deserves a spot in the collection.
As Dr. Sigmund Freud would say, I zink zat Mr. McCollum has a developed a fixation around the Berthier carbine.
Your presentation and verbal presentation are really showing a lot of improvement. I could not care less about French riffles, and yet I've watched every single one of these videos. Bravo, sir.
"Totally obsolete/Should not be using a rimmed cartridge"- where are my triggered Mosin fanboys at?
Tequila Cured Salmon Carpaccio With Vodka Foam or British .303!
Just so you understand, just because the Russians used it does NOT mean it isn't outdated. Outdated describes the Mosin in general for 99% of its service life. Let alone its cartridge.
Tequila Cured Salmon Carpaccio With Vodka Foam - Don't forget 303 British. And Siamese Mauser. And i believe 7.7mm Japanese is a virtual copy of 303 Brit, and their 6.5x50 mm is rimmed too
Troy Ortega 7.7x58mm is rimless and even 6.5x50mm is only semi-rimmed, meaning that rimlock can be overcome with a firm shove of the bolt.
You got it wrong 7.62x54R is not "rimmed". It means royal and the rim in fact is a crown.
This Berthier series continues to educate and delight.
Will it be followed by the same treatment of Lebel, Chassepot, and Gras?
Thanks Ian.
...again ye upload anither great vid, Ian, whit a wealth o' knowledge ye are, a' love it!
Bless me with Your knowledge Gun Jesus!
Trés bonnes vidéos trés précises. Thanks.
I love Berthiers, I really wish to get one when I'll have a weapons permit.
TheOtakuComrade did you ever get it?
So good watching again
another interesting video! thanks Ian
I have a 1917 with M I F stamped on the barrel. Is a Chatellerault M I F 4892 My uncle brought it back from World War II Thanks for any input.
After WW 2, a lot of people would hide a lot of guns in Attics, basements, closets. A Breither carbine was one of rural folk favorite's. It was. Small, a good deer rifle. In small conflicts, people would still use this over AKs and ARs in dirty and dusty climates. Taking pot shots, sniper, getting hit by this round would put you down for good. What the use of this carbine was the lack of clips, unlike the Italians, who mass - produce their clips. The French supply was slowly dry out during the 60's. Between the movies, French police, and micro wars, the clips were gone.
Hey, Ian. Thanks for all the great videos. Do you think you can connect the bayonet when you have it available? Especially whenever it comes to French rifles, i'm sure there are some people out their who don't realise how long their bayonets where, when connected to the barrel. Thanks.
smartness and knowledge. ...
wow, the french really couldn't decide what to do, they keep adding shit and changing it, I bet armourers never had any free time.
Prime example: Around 1932 instead of replacing their Hotchkiss M1914 machine guns they developed a higher pressure 8mm Lebel round and rechambered the guns for it (Balle N).
As opposed to rechambering them for the new 7.5mm MAS cartridge and converting them to belt feed. To add a further level of wasted funds and resources, they also modified Berthiers and Lebels to use the new Balle N.
All this after the 7.5mm MAS was adopted.
@@MrReded69 Even crazier is that they had ISSUED the RSC 1917 self-loading rifle already at the end of WWI. They had over 20 years to develop and deploy a semi-automatic standard infantry rifle.
What's crazier than that?
They took all the surviving RSC 1917 and 1918 rifles and instead of modifying the RSC 1917s to the 1918 standard that fixed most of its flaws, they plugged the gas systems and issued them to Colonial troops as straight pulls!
Man my Mle 1892 is sort of a mutt. It got some of the upgrades such as the sling bar and clearing rod and balle N stamp but it missed out on a few of the others.
Excellent series!
Mine is as well, just picked it up today. Has the cleaning rod channel filled, no stacking rod, and 3 round magazine.
"Learn Colors for Kids with Color Tire Educational video for Children Songs for Babies" is in you're recommended videos, that educational category isn't doing you many favours...
I get a load of recommended educational videos in Persian... O.o
I've started using the "Not interested" drop down. Time will tell if that will eliminate them in the future.
I see it too rip
But imagine the education the kid who clicks on Ian's videos will get.
Start teaching kids history early, that's what I say!
I have a 1892 carbine that was a WW1 bring back that received a black paintjob sometime before 1918 when it was acquired by my GGrandfather.
The metal was painted black, like in the one in the vid. The stock was given a heavy brown varnish. This was done by the French themselves. The rifle has been in my family from WW1, and the only modification that was done was to recrown the muzzle back in the early 1950's. My father used it to hunt deer, and back then it had no collector value. What I'm trying to point out is that these rifles were given paint jobs much earlier than the 1930's.
I have an almost pristine 1917 (IIRC) Continsouza...withba three round magazine...
Merci !
Next up: The Lebels!
Wow the auto gen subtitles are actually pretty good.
Any videos coming up on the excellent MAS-36?
The French government went out of its way to refurbish every rifle but did they ever think to preserve some in original condition for a museum or something?
Some of them escaped to refurbishment in private collections, and also in regimentals collections.
Before 1939 french firearms regulation was pretty cool, any legal age people without criminal record neither tutleage nor guardianship, could own such a weapon, or plenty :D
I learned so much, I really consider joining the Patreon, but first I need a job.
That's one of the weirdest stacking rods I've ever seen at 12:23. I wonder if it was curved to prevent snagging on stuff in the jungle.
Thinking of adding a French rifle to the collection, Berthier, MAS36 or MAS49/56?
Only one rifle, the semi auto. But if you can get more, I would get all three.
Ian. Hotchkiss barrel LENGTH? did you mean Hotchkiss barrel LIFE by any chance. That would seem to me to be a better reason for changing the cartridge.
Did they try to rechamber the Berthiers to 7.5?
Yes, the M34 model. I will get to that one too!
Forgotten Weapons *MORE BERTHIERS*
nice shirt!!
hey man, do you like Berthiers?
I find it kind funny that you said in 1919 a military shouldn't be using a rimmed cartridge and the British used one until the late 40s early 50s and the Russians still you 7.62x45 rimmed to this day. just an interesting thing to think about.
Caleb Faires pretty sure we were still using the .303 up until the 1960's and the Canadian arctic rangers still are!
Matt Hayward The Canadian rangers and Indian police finally let go of their Enfield rifles in various patterns.
The Russians really should have gotten around to making a rimless cartridge. But logistics happen.
Here's a strange one I got a carbine built on a chatelaraut(can barely make out anything there) mle 1892 that is missing only the 1927 wooden insert. Got a date on the barrel of 1919 but it's force matched.
Seems like more effort went into deleting and patching the cleaning rod than needed. Might as well leave it and allocate resources to more important endeavors.
Very cool
My wife may be tiring of competing for my attention with you.
Very informative. When were the long arms phased out? Was the rebuild program the same? I have a rifle that displays most of these modifications. No sling cross bar, "A" marked sights and gradient relief. All other modifications are present.
Did the british also use a black paint on their enfields at some point? I remembrer seeing that and I wondered if a bubba had painted the gun or if it was original.
yes, on No. 4 certainly, not sure about No.1 Mk. III's though. Tropical or damp climates eat blueing and other finishes for breakfast
Late (post WWII) production Lee-Enfields were phosphated and then stove enameled with a paint called "Suncorite". It's extremely tough, but it looks a bit crude compared with earlier finishes.
My No.4 has it but my No.4's stock can also be used to signal passing aircraft and it came with a No.5 backsight on it, even if all the serialised parts match. Most unaltered wartime No.4s don't appear to be painted. I'm not sure what happened to mine but if I had to guess I'd say it was refurbed from parts postwar, maybe for cadets, maybe by a private owner. Still functions like a charm.
rossmum I always assumed all No.4 were painted. But in any case it could have been painted in post war service as quite a few Mk1 got upgraded. The No.5 rearsight is weird that won't line up at all, are you sure it is a No.5? They only go to 800yds. Non-matching rear sights are not uncommon, as they are a component which could break, and they could easily be swapped in and out for target sights, which is what you see quite often on rifles which found their way into the cadets.
My Ishapore 2A also has a black paint job on the metal.
Hello, any chance to see the Berthier Mdl 1907/15 M34 in 7.5 French ?
Yep, that one is coming.
Next step the Berthier M34.
My March of 1918 1892/16 carbine still has the cut out for the stacking rod, no SN cut out in the handguard, no N marking, and matches 100%, I’m curious where it went
I think that all of the cartouches he showed us in this series have a November acceptance month
That whole Gras Rifle made in the 1870s, converted to 8mm in 1914, then converted again to the balle N during the interwar period is still some of the thriftiest thing I ever heard.
yeah but how does it relate to my bad post?
Machine time is relatively cheap, at least for reaming a hole really lightly and quickly. Much more expensive to have to make a whole new receiver.
Ian finally pronounces Chauchat properly and it's beautiful.
Also, no M1934 Berthier? Or are you leaving that one out for the 7.5mm video?
Please review a chatellerault!
If it goes ‘pew pew’ it isn’t completely obsolete.
9:35 not going to rewrite this private company
Question that may be stupid. why replace a functional bolt action rifle like the Berhier with a new and Born-obsolete gun like the MAS 36? why not just give in the program the old rifle at the support infantry and focus on the developing of a new semiauto rifle?
Actually if you look at the last iteration of these rifles... did they have any downside? I mean what can one expect from a bolt action rifle but I seriously wonder how they stack up to something like a Karabiner 98k which was afterall the main infantry rifle of the Wehrmacht throughout WW2 :/
Why didn't the French rechamber the Berthier to 7.5x54mm? It seems like it would be a sensible thing to do when one came in for repairs since the military wanted to shift from 8mm Lebel to 7.5mm anyways. Was it bureauocracy or were they just not expected to remain in service for very long after 7.5x54mm was adopted?
Google lead me to finding the Mle 07/15m34. It looks like the gun had to almost completely be reworked to fire the 7.5x54mm round, so you are correct.
I initially thought it would be a matter of a new bolt head, new barrel, and new clips. However, the cartridge geometry of 8mm Lebel is very different from 7.5mm, so I suspect that it necessitated essentially an entire rework of the rifle.
It isn't like going from 5.56 to .300 Blackout, that's for sure. :P
Are you going to discuss the berthier rifle Indochina and long berthier redesigned by the 1930s prior to ww2?
Why did en block clips fall out of favour? There were many types when bolt action rifles were invented, but non of the major WW11 types used it. They seem like a great idea to me to speed up the loading process.
The internal parts in magazine's stripper clips fed rifle are more simple and less expensive to manufacure?
Minute Man Maybe because en block clips are also capable of making a whole rifle unreliable. These clips themselves act as removable feedlips for the gun, so if a clip bends out of shape it at least might be not able to be loaded, or it could potentially cause unreliable feeding. In charger-loaded guns the stripper clip can not affect the feeding unless it breaks or bends something in the rifle, and that I think is rather unelikely.
That's my assumption inspired by the issue of Gevehr 1888 that was discussed in a video made by C&Rsenal
Hey Ian, with Berthier rifles how common is it to find one with most of the upgrades such as the sliver of wood where the cleaning rod wood go but still remain in 8mm lebel after ww1? I just bought one and is able to chamber an 8mm blank with ease, but had a tag that said it was chambered for 7.5.
They are usually found with the 1920s and 30s updates. The only ones that are in 7.5mm are the M34s, which are quite distinctive once you know what to look for. I have a video on the M34 as well, which will show you all of it.
Thanks for posting. I have a Berthier that i've been trying to learn more about! I found the serial on the barrel and the stock are the same, but the bolt is different. Would it be common to have the bolt replaced?
Quite common, for damaged gun in WW1. He told it in the precedent video.
Maybe this is a cynical take, but I could not help thinking "big arms re-development program. A whole slew of changes. Only 3.5 of them (the 2 sight upgrades, the barrel change for ball n, the black laquor finish) are functional. A bunch of em (painting the serial number on the hand guard, then cutting a slot in the hand guard, then plugging the cleaning rod slot) seem completely pedantic & trivial. Somehow the pedantic & trivial ones got the most attention & focus"
To be clear I can see how such a thing happens ; I make the exact same sequence of "beaurocratically being more concerned with trivial details than things that actually matter" constantly, & I imagine that proclivity to beaurocratic stupidity only gets amplified when looking at a large, old military organisation. But damn
That trigger looks incredibly uncomfortable
Why would you not be building/producing this rifle in 1939 this is an awesome little bolt action carbine I wouldn't want it in a full sized rifle configuration but as a carbine its badass I like it more than any other bolt action carbine of the time period other than the shortened smle's that retained the nose cap and I really like the m38 mosins too but there's just something about the way a 5 round berthier carbine looks that makes me really like it and they're just damn small and handy I want one really bad
I am simple man...i see Gun Jesus has new video...i like....then i watch to see what todays sermon is about.....have never seen one that i have had to un-like
"Modern army should not be using rimmed cartridge"
Meanwhile in Russia: T-14 Armatas, MiG 35s, (limited supply of) AN-94s... and standard full-powered rifle cartridge is still 136year old 7,62x54R, one of the first smokeless spitzer rounds in the world :D
Why did they not upgrade to a non screw-on bolt?
if the majority of arms in germany in WW1 were destroyed does that mean that most german WW1 rifles etc are rarities
Yeah,Germans began from zero after Hitler came into power.They had not huge quantities of weapons from WW1 unlike French.
Rimed rifle cartridge obsolete - laughs in 7.62x54R still in use in 2021.
The updates be ball'N (I'm so sorry but I had to).
My own MLE M16 Berthier has me puzzled, as it is completely devoid of serial numbers anywhere on the gun. It is chambered for 7.5 French and has no manufacturer's mark. I don't suppose anyone has any thoughts?
With the exception of the "balle N" modification this seems to be a whole lot of expense and fidgeting around with an outdated system with little actual improvement - in my humble opinion..
Max $$$$$ was the reason. You must remember that WWI devastated France. Not only was most of the fighting done on French soil, they lost practically an entire generation of their young men and the country came out virtually bankrupt. Whatever these small arms updates cost it was nothing compared to the developement and manufacture of all new guns. In another of Ian's videos , I believe the MAS 36, he explains their post war new gun developement plans. They did have a plan, it just didn't have the highest priority. Heard of the Maginot Line? Good idea or not, most of France's defense budget went there. And then that little thing called The Great Depression, came a long. If you have been following Forgotten Weapons for a bit, you will know that most of the major European countries were fiddling with semiauto rifles just as WW1 broke out and none went into major production or were really followed up on after the war. All about $$$$$. Rebuilding their economys came first.
When you talking about Saint-Quentin Suiza, i think you made an error. There was a private company called Hispano Suiza who made multiple things for the french army like canon, motors, etc....
Hi,
The name of the company was "CONTINSOUZA" not related to Hispano Suiza
Thank you i've misunderstood the english accent on french word and i taught he was talking about hispano suiza.
You're welcome.
Hey ian, do you watch scholagladitoria at all?
"Getting close to the end of the story of the berthier system" - 20 or so videos left I'm guessing?
Not the most accurate compact rifle for sure but the funniest of all !
Fire it at night it's a flametrhower ❤️
The idea of retrofitting rifles is to save money and improve what you already have. Why would they go through the expense and trouble of filling the knocker rod slot and the front band replacement instead of throwing away the knocker and replacing it with a cleaning rod that was needed any how? Quick, Simple, Cheap. The 3 words governments love.
What will we do when we run out of Berthier's to review? Who is having Berthier withdrawal?
Why didn't they build off of the RSC 1917 design
It was mostly because it was cheaper at short and middle term to to refurbish the tremendous quantity of rifles available. As a lot of european countries, France was economicaly almost bled dry, and the most north east territory's part (where coal mines and steel industry were concentrated ) in ruins.
The RSC modèle 1917 was so poorly designed that J.C. Garand didn't even try to take any inspiration on its feeding and operating system.
But honnestly, even you're right about some flaws, it was designed in emergency, in a economy of war context and so on... It was not a total failure.
French reserves were still using the Lebel 86 in ww2.
Not long obviously...
No tromboncino m28?
th-cam.com/video/oTT3Vmfu--w/w-d-xo.html
Thanks mate!
Wow the French did all that development and work just to loose so quickly in WW2. Damn that was how effective Germany were in their tactics and development compared to everyone else.
Such effective indeed. Look at the results. The myth of German's managing and technical superiority survived the historical facts. It's amazing.
if the germans were so smart and effective, why did they lose the war, twice? i've been to europe many times, german doods are just as squirrely as french ones. (the french have better manners) it's easy to win a fight when you come up from behind and sucker punch someone, which is excatly what happened when they invaded, and they still lost. seems like a classic case of the germans beliving their own bullshit. tsk tsk
Asa Dunbar to clarify I mean they were so effective at the start of the war, despite loosing WW1 they managed to rebuild enough to execute their over the top holiday though Europe in 1939, it's clear why they lost again but it's still interesting to see their initial success.
It´s the tactics and strategy more then the weapons. some. anyone who planed their defence for a war like the great war, would have a nasty suprice and not much time to think when they hade to defend their country from a blitzkriege.
more more.
Is Tulle related to the Russian Tula? (Facetious comment)
So in 1932,instead of converting the carbines into the new rimless cartridge standardized in 1929, they converted them to the rimmed cartridges meant for the heavy machine gun?
French logic at its best!
In your opinion why did the French "reinvent the wheel" with regards to small arms post 1918? With such rifle cartridges as the .30-06 and the whole family of Mauser rifle cartridges why WASTE money developing a new cartridge. Why WASTE money developing a new bolt action rifle when you could have all the Mauser Model 98 rifles you wanted simply for the taking? Just would like to hear your thoughts.
TheWozWizard you really don't understand the French, do you ? Their egos won't let them adopt anyone elses systems so they *have* to invent their own, no matter how wasteful or stupid that may be. Drive a French car (preferably a Citroen) & see how long it takes you to find controls that fall instantly to hand in any other vehicle. ;)
Kevin, I thought that was the reason but I just want some independent confirmation that I was not being unfair to the French by thinking that. To a lesser degree the U. S. military also suffers for "not invented here" disease.
there is an advantage to using proprietary ammo for your country. if the germans and french used the same ammo, then the germans could just capture it and use it for themselves. i forget who, may have been one of the scandinavian countries that used 7.62x53r cartridges, i can only assume, for this very purpose. same reason today why russian guns aren't chambered for nato cartridges.
just read up 7.62x54r and the 53r are actually the same cartridge, finns rounded down when russians rounded up. still tho, it makes sense not to use the same ammo as a neighboring hostile country.
Asa Dunbar but that argument goes both ways; sure the Germans could then capture and use French ammo, but then the French could also then capture and use German ammo!
"...they won.." - HALT! Nein! The British and the US carried them to victory! Without that support Germany would have won!
So France had to learn the hard way.
The Berthiers also still look quite fashionable when carried in both hands, above your head.
huhuhuuuu, dem burns.
I see what you did there...
So it doesn't get rusty when you gotta cross that river. You gotta stay classy in every possible situation.
Early squad, where you at?
Hairy Pickle Right here boss!