Adventures in Surplus: Early Battle-Worn Berthier 1907-15
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ต.ค. 2024
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Today we are taking a look at a really interesting Mle 1907-15 Berthier rifle. This was the substitute pattern adopted by France as an infantry rifle to supplement the Lebel in 1915, and this particular one is one of the very first examples made. It has a carbine-style bent bolt handle, which was used only for the first few months of production, and retains a legible military acceptance stamp dated September 1915.
This rifle was damaged in combat soon after being issued, and was repaired with a new bolt. That bolt was also an early bent-handle type, and it was renumbered for match the rifle. The gun went back into combat, and this time was captured in the field by German forces. It was overhauled by a German depot, had its bayonet guide lugs removed to fit a German bayonet adapter (now missing, alas), and the stock was stamped "Deutsches Reich" on the stock.
At the end of the war it ended up in the hands of an American solder, and was brought back to the US as a souvenir. Whether it was recaptured by the French and traded from a French soldier, or taken directly from a German prisoner or depot, who have no way of knowing...
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![[UNCUT] “บอสณวัฒน์” ลากไส้!! ใครหนุนหลัง "แม่ตั๊ก ป๋าเบียร์" I คนดังนั่งเคลียร์ I 30 ก.ย. 67](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/QlD7mU2KKRk/mqdefault.jpg)
These are the forgotten weapons I like, the ones that aren’t just a gun but tell a story as well.
Mine too.
Amen to that, mate.
Ian hates you
One of the regrets of my life is passing up a 98-k with Nazi And Israeli markings, and 4 notches carved into the bolt handle. I passed it up for an Ishipur .308 Enfield.
@@davidhanson4909 rekt
"Hammering some marks into the gun until their father saw it and got pissed off and told them to stop it" - that...that seemed oddly specific, Ian.
He has talked in the past about his father collecting antique rifles ........hmmmm
I am specifically reminded of the rifle Geronimo surrendered the final time he was captured. The grandchildren of the owner used it to play cowboys & Indians for years before it was donated to the Arizona Historical Society.
Possibly used with a trench periscope?
@@ForgottenWeapons Ha.
But seriously, I'm wondering if those marks in the side were used to affix some sort of grip or something in the Berthier's post-war life. A leather wrap or something.
Trench Periskop was my first thought too, clamped on the Stock.
What impresses me the most about Ian is that he’s not broke living in a storage shed surrounded by hundreds of surplus rifles. If I kept visiting auction houses and places selling these guns I would be begging for food, wearing rags but with an incredible collection that I wouldn’t dream of selling...
Forgotten Weapons is secretly an extremely lucrative business, I am sure. That, and Ian is/was an engineer by training (an actual diesel engineer iirc).
It's a good thing Ian is one of the most unambiguous examples of earned success that I have ever seen in my entire life.
Ian has wonderful modular gun racks...
I think Mrs forgotten weapons wouldn't like that too much.
His Patreon account provides monthly income for travel to make these great videos.
@@rodgerjohnson3375 He is married, so she is there to shoot some sense in his head and to not commit financial suicide over a gun collection.
*meanwhile at the auction house...
"Hey Jim, that weird dude that keeps fondling our antique French guns is back again..."
"Just let him be till he wants to go home, you have to check him to see if he took any with him."
@@Ulquiorra4163 'Just mention, so he can overhear, that some guy has some surplus 7.65×20mm Longue surplus in northen Alaska and he'd be gone for another 6 months'.
Lmao!
Imagine if the Gun went: “uwu harder”
"The war will be over by Christmas!" It was, just not THAT Christmas!!
@@crowhomestead7552 definitely worth a chuckle. Thanks😁
Bit of a myth. Most knew they were in for a long war the 'Over By Christmas' started as a sarcastic remark , but has gone into 'Everyone knows'
I was told before 30th of february or was that Covid.
@Stop Banningme Long over. There wasn't any proof in newer case that they are china virus but be Corona. If you let them own the word of a common cold name, then they can says all cause Corona.
I much prefer captain black adders take “Field Marshal Haig is about to make yet another gargantuan effort to move his drinks cabinet six feet closer to Berlin'
Enjoy seeing how Ian methodically “reads” firearms. Really informative and captures the imagination.
A thousand years in the future some space armorer from the planet Goboflatz will lift this rifle off the body of a third line space trooper, look over the dozens of cartouches, and say, "Hey, I can fix this and save the space government one space blaster." (Note: in the future everything will be preceeded by the word 'space.')
And thus the Space Berthier was born.
Just need to recrystallise the tantalum barrel lining; those plasma bolts are hard on these old steel blasters….
In the grim darkness of the far future, there are only space rifles with 3-shot space magazines.
Aren’t there canonically a bunch of M2 brownings in the 40k universe?
@@scott_hunts nah man they're heavy stubbers, -totes- different! :P
Ian’s so used to talking about French guns, he doesn’t stutter talking about the Berthier’s history.
he needs 32 french long
Hey, when you're interested in some niche, you geek out and learn all you can, (and in Ian's case, write a book.)
I hate to say it...But french guns are kind of cool. I get it now. If it wasn't for Ian I'd never know. Probably just make some dumb french joke and ignore the whole subject.
@@Midnightspecia1 why would you hate to say it? Is it the American anti French bias? I see French as good soldiers with good firearms but always happened to be at wrong place at wrong time and/or otherwise highly screwed over by circumstances out of their control. All this "cowards that always surrendered the instant they saw enemies" talk is just empty insults without much actual substance to them.
Excuse me for the possible grammar mistakes, I'm not native english speaker.
you know, he should write a book about french guns since he's so knowledgeable.
When an auction house receives a shipment of French surplus, it's common practice to hand Ian the keys and take the day off.
@@kenbrown2808 When Gun Jesus handles a French firearm, does that make it Holy Relic or a victim of Francophilia?
@@brandonobaza8610 yes.
And then watch the video he makes to write the sales catalogue with 100% authority...
About the holes on each side: Perhaps this rifle was once mounted in one of those raised, periscoped trench warfare contraptions. You can't mount anything there because that's were you grip it with your firing hand, so I'm thinking maybe this was fired without being held by a hand.
My first thought when I saw the holes. Especially since they're mirrored.
My thoughts exactly.
I strongly agree. I suspect the contraption was improvised from salvaged boards and nails. Hand forged square iron nails would have still been fairly common around the great war. A row of square nails, cut so they stick out a little and filed sharp would leave wide shallow marks when pressed into the wood firmly. Edit: horse shoes! Of course!
Or as somebody else stated maybe it was clamped into a rig during a Schützenfest.
My thoughts were along the lines of a leather cover with button pin fasteners. Yours seems much more likely .
"...that was produced barely a year after... " Was anyone else half expecting the next part to be "War were declared"?
*Boom* *pop pop* *poppoppop* *neeeyyyom*
The French, yes. There had been the Franco -Prusian war, particullaly the loss of Alscase Lorraine,and previous incident in 1907 and 1911 . The late part of the 19th century was a time of paranoia for France, the Dreyfus Affair almost led to a military coup d'etat
Not half, completely!
Weeet! Weeet WEEEETWEEEET!!! Weeeet.
Indeed. Somewhere Othias is yelling and shaking a patented plastic pokey at the computer screen in anger.
Love the “adventures in surplus” intro, Ian broke out his inner Vanna White for us!
I have an idea for the marks on the wrist of the rifle. In Germany is a big Tradition called “Schützenfest” I can not find a good translation for it, like marksmens’ festival, it’s like Oktoberfest with shooting. Everyone shoots with the some gun on a wooden eagle. Because there is alcohol involved, the rifle is very often put in a fastening device. A French captured rifle would be a very nice thing in an event like that.
@@Chris_Garman I would have expected a clamp to leave identical marks on both sides of the stock.
I was thinking maybe someone put a leather sleeve or something at one point.
@@Chris_Garman Yes actually, I have. Maybe go check Handtool Rescue's channel. You make 100 years ago sound like the dark ages. You do realize the 1911 was designed and built over a hundred years ago, right?
@@gerry343 Could be that the two sides of the clamp were different due to past repairs, back then people repaired stuff for as long as possible before replacing it.
The 8 holes in the stock were an early variant of picatinny rail, designed to hold red dot optics, lights, lasers, etc.
In the handle? I’m not saying you’re wrong, but it would be surprising.
My personal theory is that they are from a grip strap, maybe a piece of leather or a cord, that was strapped around the handle to make it more comfortable.
@@isaaccisa That was a joke man
Or, less entertainingly, marks from a clamp, like a "trench rifle"?
Alright, who gave Ian a surplus storage facility filled with 1900's bolt action rifles
The French
"Gave"? That's not the French word for 'surrendered', I learned in school.
He had a presentation not so long ago about a huge shipment of rifles from Ethiopia, many early French guns.
@@Beechhill Gave, as in “the French gave the USA the Statue of Liberty”?
@@simonrook5743 The Statue of Liberty ...
Such a sad place.
Really should be treated as a war memorial:
Two divisions of chasseurs armed with white flags never made it out before the concrete dried.
in the early sixties there was an army surplus store in birmingham ala. that had 55 gallon drums filled with milsurp bolt actions muzzle down. $15 apiece!
since i was broke and 12 yrs old, i didn't buy any and dad didn't want any of "that old junk".
I got one of those rifles! Dad bought it for me. Same scenario with the barrel but in California. Took an entire weekend with Dad to get the cosmoline off it. It was a carbine with a saddle ring that Dad called a "Lebel" but after watching Ian, I wonder if it really was. I have a couple of crappy pics of it. Never shot it. We couldn't find ammo. I have no recollection of what happened to it. It was waiting for me at home when I come back from the Army but that's as much as I can recall.
I was also a 12 year old in the sixties. However, I caddied at a local country club every weekend and summer. I would mail order MilSurps from Klien's of Chicago. My Mother freaked out when a M1903 and 200 rounds of 30 06 was left on the front porch by the mailman.
I recall the early 60s when a surplus store had a barrel of British .303s for 13 bucks each.
Dad had just gotten a used 30-30 so he didn’t see the need for another deer rifle. They also had a stack of US Navy leather flight jackets...sigh
Left out box of german pistols on the counter.
@@demonprinces17 agreed. Those were the days. Lugers for $29.95.
Possibly the best introduction of all time.
I really love this sort of content. The history of a weapon's use is more compelling to me than the technical explanation of it's mechanical operation.
there is a strange magic with FW. its never just another gun video. its more a gun theatre.
Gun church. Saint Ian of the holy 8x50R
I'm early enough to still be wearing Red Pantaloons.
I hope you'll survive long enough to switch to horizon blue.
Yep
With a fez?
@@avnrulz8587 “No, never gonna do it without the fez on….”
@@scottdrone-silvers5179 - Early enough, to quote 70s bands.
The continuation of this series is so very welcome.
My adventure in surplus story of the week. I found an all matching ww1 beirthier m16 carbine dated 1917 with the cleaning rod and no import marks! It also wasn't in service by ww2 because its not stamped with the N. I think it was a bring back. So, I am very pumped about that!
I didn't expect another video to come out in this series
As long as Ian keeps buying surplus guns....
The marks on the stock are identical on both sides and the holes are equally spaced so the kill marks/kid's play are out of question. Seems that something was attached to this rifle at some point that left these marks
Honestly, I could listen to you talk about firearms for hours at a time .. you have a way of bringing history alive. Thank you Ian.
A fascinating story brought to us through years of research. I see an old rifle, Ian sees the history behind that old rifle. Amazing…
Karl: I wouldn't like to collect niche variation of the same thing.
Ian: have I told you about my German captured French mil surp.
Each to their own.
And everything to me. :P
This is an example of why I collect wood and steel surplus weapons and not ARs and glocks. The story that these rifles could tell. The hints they give you by the markings and wear. I have a Remington M91 that went from US to Russia, Finland and back to the USA. Mismatched bolt but with a Westinghouse bolt. The stories it could tell. Thanks for the video. Great job Gun Jesus. 👍
A French rifle captured by the Germans In world war one is definitely interesting and this one has lived hell of a life and virtually every stage is marked on its body
@@ommsterlitz1805 these were sent to the far rear/navy so german weapons could be sent to the front
The biggest reasons I love your channel, well researched history and engineering. You're the best Boss🤘
Those marks on the stocK: Did they ever make remote telescopic trench sights for berthiers? Those look like something got clamped to the wrist.
That's what I was thinking as well. I feel as if Ian would know about the standard ones, though.
Somebody could write a history movie by just following the life of this rifle.
Isnt there a movie where it follows a bullet at the beginning
@@jarencascino7604 the opening of lord of war.
But yeah you could make a heck of a movie.
another demonstration of why Forgotten Weapons is a standout world class level of content provider. Thanks again Ian for your insight and knowledge.
I'm so glad Adventures in Surplus is back. Just as interesting as the prototypes and rare guns.
I would guess the holes are from something like upholstery nails. (Totally Guessing here) perhaps a soldier had larger hands so he wrapped with leather and tacked down to make sure it's stayed put. Or possibly it was wrapped because the soldier was fighting in a very cold climate.
This is exactly what I started researching and coming up empty... but it makes the most sense to me given how the holes look.
Ian thank you very much. The history of this one rifle was incredible.
Very intriguing piece of military history, very long history what that rifle has been through.
What an incredible amount of history in one rifle!
Ian, again thank you. I love it when you have great back story on a firearm. It no longer is just a "gun in the rack". Those four holes on both sides could be where a solder had added some kind of material to help him get a better grip on his weapon. I understand there was a lot of wet/slippery mud in those trenches. Just a thought.
Every time Ian does a video about a gun like this its always fascinating, but i can't shake the feeling that a man, at some point, died in a mud-filled trench holding this thing
Love the "Adventures in Surplus" series. I really appreciate these nuances that tell a story on a "run of the mill" surplus weapon
It is amazing the amount of information you can give us from a few characteristics and markings of a firearm. Thank you.
Holy crap, you hit the jackpot with this one Ian!! Reminds me (to a lesser extent) of my Finnish M91 Mosin, which started life as an Imperial Russian M91 made in 1905, then was captured by the Finns, refitted with a Finnish stock, and likely saw action in both the Winter War and the Continuation War. These rifles are amazing records of history.
I have a m91 made in 1917 with the same Finnish mods. You are so right. Great piece of history.
Marks could be studs for grip or decoration.
Explains the symmetry and the mark shape.
Probably later removed by some military storage person for being non standard.
I have 2 Mosin M38's made in '43 and '44 that have some interesting markings. Knowing the general history of the M38 makes me sad they cannot tell me their stories.
Those holes could also be from a some makeshift periscope rifle attachment. They seem to be specifically spaced. The only French periscope rifle photo I have seen was with a Lebel and it appeared to attach from the wrist of the stock.
The St. Etienne manufacturing mark and the model designation are done in a very nice and easily readable way. It's a shame that this practice is rarely encountered today.
I just love Ian's deep knowledge coupled with his storytelling skills. Tracing the history of a seemingly ordinary rifle makes for fascinating viewing.
That was truly fascinating to watch, thank you.
i seem to recall a friend bringing back a mosin from the middle east that had holes like that. they had used them to hold leather wrapping onto it. with shell holders sewn onto it. and a well worn cheek pad too.
Next Ian does multiple DNA tests to track down the descendants of the various soldiers that used that rifle.
After the recent sampling of 40 thousand year old Neanderthal DNA, this doesn't seem so far fetched. Could there be some dryed blood under the stock or in those holes punched in the stock or a piece of skin pinched under the bolt or a sling swivle, it's only 100 years old? The possibilities....
..and the tree the stock was made from...
Right? At least four unfortunate people had their hands on this rifle. Two that had damaged rifles, one that ended up getting captured by the Germans, and the German due to having lost the war.
Those holes look like they might have been a mount for some kind of modification, or even decorative embellishment, that was likely removed when the bayonet adapter was removed by whoever found this gun and thought "wtf is this crap on this gun"
Maybe the gun had a plaque at some point?
Fascinating. I can see the attraction of looking at a rifle like this and getting an insight into the life it has had.
I have a K98 Mauser, 1939 42 code. I picked it up in a pawn shop with a mismatched civilian bolt and a sportered (kinda badly) stock. Its really interesting to think of what happened to that rifle over the years, what countries it has visited in its time. Unfortunately its all lost to time when someones grand kid pawned it.
Possibly the most technically interesting firearm I've ever seen. I love the way that the woodwork could be replaced completely without actually disassembling the mechanism, perhaps this was intended to allow broken stocks to be replaced in the field?
RE marks on the stock: maybe for a wrap/cover as a grip? I'm thinking a leather grip secured with flush pins with barbs to grip the wood.
To me, this is the perfect Forgotten Weapons episode. Thank you Ian
Surplus Adventure Time: with Ian and Othais
The four marks on either side of the stock appear to be in the same place on either side and are spaced apart almost (if not) identically. My guess is that they're from some sort of mount or cradle. The marks are even and have a mechanical look to them.
I was thinking some weird aftermarket grip mounts? but yours makes more sense.
This is the kind of content that makes this channel great. Fascinating stuff!
I love story-time with Ian. Thank you. I hope everyone’s as a good day.
Great series, Ian. This is what mil-surp collecting is all about !
I love Adventures in Surplus! Easily one of my favourite series on the channel, after Bergmann Week (obviously!)
A Berthier. Ah, back to our regularly scheduled programming.
The first thing I thought of when I saw those marks, mirrored on both sides of the rifle's wrist was that they were the result of some type of contraption that had been attached to the rifle to facilitate firing from a protected position, below the trench line.
all hail gun Jesus and his french firearms!
The surplus is an original Berthier 1907-15 in good quality... What is the rifle you really wanted to buy?
Ian finally pronounced St Etienne right, this is truly a fantastic day
Remember Folks even if you can't afford ammo right now you can still look at the firearms in awe.
Those marks in the wood look like the renains of adding a leather wrap to the wrist in situ. They look like the marks from a leather punch being used by someone who doesn't really do it every day.
Yes! I love the adventure’s in surplus videos! It’s awesome to hear the story behind the weapons threw the makings and modifications.... now when I get home I have to pull some of my surplus out and look for makings and mods 🤣
I used to watch this channel just to see the guns , but now the historical backgrounds alone is enough to make me tune in.
I love the adventures in surplus series
Cool to know my Mle07-15 predates Ian's by couple months, mine is a war rebuilt F 30xxx serial range rifle. Straight bolt handle from a F 80xxx serial range rifle, and a DB magazine. Built with a ManuFrance undated and unmarked barrel that was never fired. Matching stock to the barrel shank number.
Oh, so Ian has that force ability where you touch an object and see some of its history.
Psychometry--also a staple of occult and modern-fantasy fiction.
I was going to say the four holes on each side of the stock could have been some kind of early bracket and attempt to mount a scope behind the action without offsetting it but the holes seem spaced a little farther apart on the left side of the stock then the right and they are also higher up on the left side of the stock then on the right.The holes do look old though like they were done a long time ago, even way before the 1960s.
12:25 - "That sort of thing happens" A very specific example, possible childhood memory of young Ian messing with his dads gun collection? Obviously not in the 60's though xD
very interesting video. I really like explanations of markings.
The four marks on the grip? Very well-organised and precise woodworms...
Thank you , Ian .
My 2 cents regarding the marks on the grip. My guess is that someone added a grip wrap of some kind and then tacked it in place; given how close the marks are and how evenly spaced, I'd say something like an old leather strap was used.
Possible chain of events. French soldier wraps the grip of his rifle for personal comfort using a strap from some old gear; when the Germans captured it they stripped the wrap off before re-issuing.
Interesting. My Berthier "bringbacks" tend to have duffel cuts under their bands. I suppose nowadays servicemen mail souvenirs back, but in the good old days they had to hide them in their luggage and carry them onto the returning troopships with them, and those 1907/15s and 1916s were so damn long the stocks had to be shortened somehow. Not the barrels, fortunately, as barreled actions were short enough once the rifles were broken down.
That is so cool and fascinating, this gun has a marvelous history! Thanks Ian, you're the best, as always ❤️
I suspect that part of the reason the Berthier was given to colonial troops was that it also had half the Lebel's magazine capacity [3rds vs 7.] Kind of like how the Brits always limited their colonial troops to one generation behind in equipment, so that if they ever had to face them in an uprising, the regulars would have the superior latest equipment to their advantage.
As usual... the most expendable equipment is the soldier himself. The equipment lives on.
War is hell.
Sometimes you make the apparent mundane just plain interesting!
With all those marks, you have to wonder how many times this rifle went over the line, and how many times it got drug back with it's dead user, on both sides.
Berthier XL: For when you need to equip your unit of absolute units absolutely.
Those holes on the stock look like some sort of vice grip markings, the ''holes'' are too evenly spread for someones marking his kills in the field
My first thought about those holes on the stock was for securing some sort of leather or fabric covering around the wrist. They seem to line up pretty well on both sides.
Thanks for telling the story of this rifle!
This piece of art is Beautiful
I love this type of content! Would love to see them more often!
I used to have a Berthier with the tip of the firing pin broken off and random saw cuts in the stock, I think the owner made it "safe" and gave it to the kids to play with.
I just picked one of these up dated 1916. Beautiful rifle and a great addition to my collection.
Shoots nicely but dang that firing pin is the meanest I’ve seen as it practically punctures primers
Yes, period primers requested a harder hit to ignite properly.
@@chrisg.1811 I wondered about that. Thanks for the info!
I literally started looking into buying one of these last night... Good timing!
Was just bingiing the previous episodes of this. What a coincidence.
Those four pinholes make it look like there was some sort of special grip attached at some point.
Those holes in the grip? They're for vibrational fine tuning. Real accuracy nut stuff. Arrayed along the wave guide that comes from the interface between the metal and the wood. You tune it so the bore stays true as the shockwave from the shot travels through the gun.
Great rifle and story, Ian. Lots of speculation about some kind of mount attached to the stock, but I’m thinking that they were used to fasten a leather wrapped grip.
Doesn't seem to be any stock finish marks where the wrap would have protected the wood.