1895 Daudeteau Indochina Trials Carbine
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Louis Marie Daudeteau was a persistent and prolific arms designer in France in the late 19th century. Born in 1845, he gained substantial military experience in the Franco-Prussian War, and afterwards turned to weapons design. He built a variety of different arms for military consideration, from magazine conversions of the Gras to machine guns, rapid-firing cannons, and self-loading rifles. Ultimately, however, he came closest to military acceptance with his 1891-1896 bolt action rifle.
While the bolt mechanism is similar to that of the Lebel and Berthier, Daudeteau's rifle used a 5-round fixed magazine fed by stripper clips, had a much simpler disassembly procedure (no need to remove a screw to take the bolt out), and controversially used a 6.5mm cartridge. At the time, there was substantial debate over the effectiveness of such a small bullet (much like there still is today regarding 5.56mm and 7.62mm NATO cartridges). Daudeteau, correctly, saw his round as vastly superior to the 8mm Lebel cartridge because of its flatter shooting, better terminal ballistics, and better penetration.
The French Army rejected his rifle on a technicality, but the French Navy was interested enough to purchase several hundred for extended troop trials in Indochina in 1895/6, and this Series S carbine is one of those trials guns.
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Gotta love how the Berthier doesn't have a mag cut off but it gets used, but because some hotshot comes in with a radical new cartridge, that's superior to the preexisting cartridge, his rifle gets rejected "because" it doesn't have a mag cut off.
welcome to the french. making up the rules as they go lol
Good guy Ian for giving both imperial and metric measurements!
Yes I always appreciate that. I think ive thanked him for that in past too. Facts are miles better when given in both. Or kilometres better.
Nick Thorp 7tx
8/5 Ian. Ian is best Ian
...and just when you think the guns cannot get any weirder or scarcer, Ian comes up with a new video....
TheyCallMeCorona we have to dig deeper
we have to remember harder
Ian's French is improving, soon he will be drinking wine and eating snails
Whiskey is better in every way.😂
And rancid cheese.
@@madrenwillims4391 not with food
Next thing you know he's gonna write a book about this stuff
Imagine this rifle competing with the G98 rather than the Lebel.
French military bureaucracy is legendary ?
NOPE NOPE NOPE
French bureaucracy is legendary
We invented the concept and so the word bureaucratie !
No modern buracracy was in develops by the Germans in the early XVIII century.
Is true as Balzac sad " organization is word of the Empire".
@@giovannifontana1433 Germany is still famous for bureaucracy in every branch of government.
@@giovannifontana1433 @Emily Chb , Hell, if you want go farther back then check out the concept of the Mandarin, the European understanding of the Chinese Imperial Civil Servant and inspiration for bureaucracies of Europe.
Interesting bit of gear!
That 6.5 Daudateau round looks a lot like the somewhat later 6.5 54R as used as a sporting cartridge in Finland and neighbouring countries where "military' cartridges are forbidden in "sporting" use.
I have heard of these, and remember reading the cartridge info in COTW. Nice to see one. The parallels with our M1895 Lee Navy 6mm are interesting. Same era, smallbore ahead of their time, similar ballistics, bought in limited numbers for naval and marine service, used only briefly (a few years and the Boxer Rebellion for the Lee, at least), then sold off. But yet the Swedish and Norwegians wisely stuck with their 6.5mm cartridge for decades, in 2 different rifles. It is always interesting the similar yet divergent paths that world militaries follow. I can think of at least 3 other nations that used 6.5mm cartridges around the turn of the century, and often for decades. They work. Great video as always. Thank you
I am also pretty much exited to see all those french rifles. No one can tell how many surprises have you in store, Ian.
The Italians had the same "discussion" about the 6.5mm caliber rifle. At the end they adopted this smaller cartridge because it was lighter and smaller, so easier to transport (they had problems with their supply lines during a series of colonial wars beforeWW1). Maybe they made the same reasoning when they developed this gun.
Arguably NATO should have adopted a 6.5mm cartridge rather than 5.56. The 5.56 NATO cartridge was adopted in a very unexpected and unplanned way, and was ironically the result of the US insisting on nothing smaller than 30cal, despite overwhelming evidence that a smaller caliber was more effective and practical.
With a 6.5mm cartridge however, one could get the ultimate cartridge, one that can be effective in everything from infantry rifles to carbines, SAWs DMRs and sniper rifles. It could be good against armour, flat shooting, minimal recoil and have sufficient size for stopping power and a variety of bullet designs like AP, tracers ect, even explosive rounds might be possible.
If they chose 6.5 there would be no need for 7.62 and 5.56. One cartridge could have done both. The other NATO countries wanted something like 6.5 or 6mm but were roundly rejected by the pigheaded US top brass who still thought bigger = better.
That 6.5 caliber keeps coming back again and again.
Nice french prononciation ;)
From a french fan right here
From a French Revolutionist here!
What a well of knowledge, I'm loving all these little historical details. Thanks for your hard work.
so many French pronunciations, I heard Ian pronounced the Patreon part a bit Frenchy; Patreaun.
5 feet of wood penetrated after two sheets of metal armor. I'd like to see either that rifle tested or a modern rifle with a similar round tested, or just for fun test a .50 bmg and see if it goes through 5 feet of wood without the metal plates.
say no more french wood +armor ,remember henry ..+ long bow's...
My guess is it was soft wood or maybe it was some kind of scrap wood. I don't think too many rifles would penetrate the armor plus 5' of oak or another hard wood. I'd like to see it tested for sure.
Chris Jones I actually did some checking before I posted for penetration into pine .223 16 inches .270 22 inches .50 bmg 32 inches, probably all wrong because it's from the internet. regardless I feel safe to say the rifle in question never penetrated 5 feet of any type of wood other than perhaps balsa or cork. also note the above results are without metal plates or spaces between plates and wood which would impact penetration in a negative way, also they are all spitzer bullets not round nose like the bullet in the video.
Laird Cummings we don't need specs on the armor if it can't penetrate the wood in the first place, which is the assertion I'm making. in fact I've gone so far as to say a .50 bmg won't penetrate 5 feet of pine.
Note that its likely only one sheet of metal armor. It was a breast plate but didnt have a back covering. That was the prevalent style in the more "mobile" combat of the late black powder era as opposed to the fully encased knight.
So in 1914, the French civilians had a better (sporting) rifle and ammo than the Army ?! Weird !
Thats the norm for all times. Military has limited budget to equip every soldier with best weapon and the decision making process of switching millions of equipments to next generation is very costly.
bilibiliism - i don't mean to offend,but does bilibiliism mean talking shit about two people at once?
+druisteen , but the Meunier A6 never went into full production (just a thousand) and the Berthier 97-15 was a stopgap weapon.
Looks like a great round and rifle.
Hope you have the chance to fire one - Thanks Ian.
I rather like the rifle and it's ammo. A little tweaking here and there and it would have been a super cost effective carbine of it's day.
From what I have seen and read the 6.5x55 Swedish round makes an excellent penetrator. It's also extremely accurate.
that's what she said
Kuddlesworth NA -Ditto for the 6.5x54 M/S, as a generation of hunters attested, including Hemingway and WDM "Karamojo" Bell.......
Well, I am glad this rifle did see some success. I hate seeing good designs die out because of bureaucracy. I think this would had served the French, as well as many others well if adopted.
I always thought you could definitely expand upon the cartridges used with these obscure firearms. Nice to see that you have in this case, pardon the pun :)
Thanks a lot for this piece of weaponry/archeology ofFrance. We do appreciate also your prononciation française.
So good watching again
Ian,
Thanks for the video and you improving french.
As you said during the video the model you introduce was set up in Saint Chamond , may be for the french navy, but also for civilians, then sold by ManuFrance. Just give a quick look at a map, you'll see that St Chamond is really close to Saint Etienne, location of the M.A.S and "la Manu" also known as Manufrance. Saint Denis designed and produced parts, Saint Chamond made the assemblies for supplying the MAS and ManuFrance with very few time lapse and short distances. This is my guess, but looks not so weird.
Tres Magnifique!
Even French arms manufacturers sound exquisite, when said aloud.
You know, eventually Ian is going to have gone through all of the cool, experimental, rare, old stuff, and my daily dose of awesome will cease :(
nonsense, we have plenty of experimental weapons trials going on right now.
He has yet to reach the OICW :D and that entire program.
Laird Cummings you're US thing can't be as bad as the German one, at least you have working gear at the end. And no I'm not referring to the G36, whose problems were manly that they bought ammunition not to speck and trying it against the heavy barrel version of the HK416.
Laird Cummings you have a point there. But one question: Do you're sea helicopters rust, because they weren't meant for the Navy and deployment on boats? Ours do, which is just fucking stupid.
Yeah, jag, you're probably right, but don't underestimate man's ability for weirdness. Not to mention, the history that still needs to be taught.
We have more. Our self developed drone isn't allowed to fly, because it violates some well known regulation. Our new transport air plane can't fly for shit and rusts already. The Puma (our new IFV) has for some reason a 5,56mm machine gun (second weapon), instead like all the others one in at least 7.62mm. Our vehicle for special troops can't be armoured. To make our new IFV transportable by plane we have to demount art of it's armour, if the transport planes can fly. Our IFV is also for some reason the most expensive in the world, but it's roof is still leaking. Weapons for our troop transport vehicles aren't their at all. We decided to buy a battle helicopter the Tiger without it's forward machine cannon.
Excellente prononciation monsieur Ian.
Pretty amazing piece of history
nice vid, and gg from France for the prononciation
hey Ian, you evidently have quite the collection of Firearms related books, would you consider doing a video on your bookshelf, naming all the different books
Nice to see examples of the ammo.
Gives a good idea of what was being fired.
Steve
Daudeteau carbines and rifles are the French MASTERPICES.
Is there any info on that armor plate that one guy challenged him to shoot? Was it like Deans panoply that used magnesium and vulcanized rubber? Being able to stop an 8mm lebel round is still impressive even if it didn't stop this 6.5mm round.
I wonder if that test was before they switched to a bronze solid?
for some reason, any 6.5mm cartridge seems to perform much better than its ballistics indicate it should. great penetration, flat trajectory, negligible recoil, very accurate. Karamojo Bell used a 6.5mm to take most 8f his elephants
So cool!
That's a cool looking rifle for one as old as it is.
If that name seems weird to you in English, rest assured, it just as bad in French.
Yeah, what a messy word. Is it Daudéteau o just Daudeteau? Because the second one is just awful to pronounce
Rodrigo Seoane I lt' s Daudetau, which is a mouthful no matter your native language
The baffling thing when seeing this rifle is how the Lebel got adopted
Man that's 6.5 mm cartridge is really ballistically the best choice it seems when it comes to small caliber rifle rounds.
that looks a very handy little carbine
I want one.
Looks a bit like a Berthier. Inspiration, perhaps?
Also, if there's any chance, could you do a bit on the so-called "Enfausers," the rechambered SMLEs captured at Gallipoli? I understand they're fairly rare (40-50 in the US) but I have recently fallen quite in love with them.
I'm sad it didn't go anywhere. I want one.
shame that no one picked these up for army use, they seem like really nice rifles, atleast people use them for:)
Is it just me or does it look ALOT like a Mosin PU without a scope? The shape and internal magazine interrrupter.
I guess you could say this rifle went Daudeteau with other trials rifles.
This gun deserves so much but more than to be forgotten.
Man... a better bolt handle design, a post front sight and a mannlicher magazine and that woulda been the cat's meow... I still would have taken it over the other french guns for sure.....except for the probably inability to find ammo on the front. Still just shows how the military mindset often is at the expense of the actual guys in the muck.
Could you imagine someone telling your family "he was killed by a doedoe toe rifle"
Looks like the guy making the bolt handle wanted to compensate for something…
If you pull the trigger in safe, then drop the safety to fire position, could the bolt jump forward and fire the weapon?
it looks almost exactly like the Berthier M16
next time i go other the chanel i shall have to try and find one..
One of the great what ifs, alot better than the lebel.
It is really quite interesting how many countries developed and tested 6.5mm range cartridges, but stuck with their 7.62-8mm cartridges, for various reasons, none of which had to do with ballistics. It makes one wonder where we would be if you could get the politics out of procurement.
not that it would matter much but couldn't the "interrupter" be modified easily to be a mag cut off?
4:34 "He knew it was flatter shooting, because of higher velocity and lighter bullet weight..." I'm pretty sure that all objects drop at that same rate over the same period of time (excepting influence of air resistance). This is because the drop is entirely determined by the force of gravity. Thus the only significant influence on "flat shooting" in real-world terms is based on velocity and weight is irrelevant.
You are not considering air resistance. The smaller bullet loses less velocity pushing through the air, and thus drops less over a given distance because it travels faster.
I absolutely agree with you, I get that air resistance is a relevant factor; for instance, if I launched a ball bearing vs a microwave oven at the same muzzle velocity that the "flatness" would be significantly different.
I just can't believe that the difference between air resistance of an 8mm Lebel vs 6.5mm Daudeteau is significant to a shooter at ranges anticipated without sight adjustment in the 19th Century.
The below link shows the difference between firing, an, admittedly very different round, both in air and in a vacuum, and it appears that air resistance isn't as much of a thing as I was raised to believe (but I'm sure that can vary based on particular bullet types)
www.wired.com/2009/10/mythbusters-bringing-on-the-physics-bullet-drop/
***Much love to Forgotten Weapons, I've been watching for a while and love your work***
I'll be signing up tonight via Patreon.
BatCaveOz based on frontal area alone, the 6.5mm round is only 72% of the frontal area f the 7.62mm. Against the 8mm he difference will be even more marked.
Can you enlighten us about the Dovitiis rifle, also in the No. 12 6.5 Daudeteau cartridge? Old timers in my area said a local sporting goods chain had significant quantities in the 1960's, sold poorly due to no ammo.
th-cam.com/video/3ExOcfs2rng/w-d-xo.html
Thanks for the link. Very informative
I can't help it: when will we see the FRF-1 or FRF-2 guns?
Oh dear, a whole series?
Ian's on his hype train lol
I wonder how the Chauchat would have run with that ammo? You wouldn't have needed the big holes in the magazine to load it.
Well, since the comment sections is full of bad jokes anyway...
Did the colonial marines test how well it penetrates aliens?
No Aliens there and then ; only indigenous, but they did test that A LOT.
Did this rifle use a clip that was part of the magazine system. I have seen special clips for the Daudeteau and I am wondering if the magazine system on the S model is different from the A and B models?
The Daudeteau use a clip very similar to the Swiss K31 clip. It's not really a stripper clip, but you don't have to put the clip in the mag unlike Mannlicher style clips. You can even load your Daudeteau one by one, like a Mosin Nagant.
The cartridge looks like a 6.5 carcano
That was the time when many "smaller" countries adopted 6.5 mm cartridges: Greece, Romania, Sweden, Japan. Most "bigger" countries adopted 7.62mm or 8 mm. Smokeless ammo was something new and new rifle designs has to be created
I want one of these rifles!
Did the navy consider the rifle because the increased penetration was good against torpedo boats? If so that gives this gun a lot of similarities to the lee-navy.
What a fun name to say
Question for anyone that can answer. What is the ballistic performance of 375 H&H at sub-sonic and trans-sonic speeds thus around 800-1000 feet per sound? Because 375 bullets at that speed range has as much energy (in foot pounds) as pistol caliber rounds like the 45 acp. Thus from that I suspect it would have the needed energy to bring down game such as deer with accurate shoots. Since at similar speeds and lighter bullets, air rifles can bring down such game. Thus i assume a standard factory round with more weight and similar speeds should be ass effective or more so.
Anyways if someone can help me out here that would be greatly appreciated. Because i might be able to design a gun but that doesn't mean i know much about bullets themselves.
John J - Look up wildcat cartridges like the 375 Whisper by JD Jones. He has some large low velocity cartridges. Buy Cartridges of the World. Goid reference book and very interesting. U will find all of JD Jones's cartridges in the wildcat section. A subsonic 375 should have mire energy than a 45 ACP, as the bullets are heavier (270-300 grains vs 230 grains) at faster speeds (say 1000 fps vs 850 fps at most). A spitzer bullet can be quite accurate and hold its velocity at good distance. I believe the original 300 Whisper design is effective to 200 meters in specialized military applications with modified suppressed AR-15's. Essentially, elimination of enemy sentries by specops. Ballistics is a fascinating science. It is amazing to see what has been tried or is under development for various purposes. Good luck in your research
I completely forgot about wildcat designs, so that alone is good information. But knowing about a 375 whisper round is going to be really useful for me as well. So thank you.
Have you had a chance to handle a MAT-49?
Most of the material I can find is from Rising Storm 2 :(
Handled, but not shot.
just a guess but I see a lot of berthie carbine there
Why does 6.5mm can't compete with the 8mm? Smaller bore bullets have faster velocity and higher penetration impact and that is really good. But why they just don't accept it... This is so unfair.
People at that time didnt understand (at least not everyone were persuaded yet) the advantage of smaller cartridges. Consider the size of lead muskets were in the previous era, they were already doing a good job of downsizing though.
I think a magazine cut off is a good idea. It's a feature better to have than not have. No?
+Forgotten Weapons Ian would you and karl be interested in a meet up here in italy? you have a lot of fans here too ant it would be really cool. i'll gladly give you hospitality in my house and we could go to the skiritai long range outdoor shooting range near here,maybe we could even talk to all the members and ask them about their gear and stuff.
Gabriele Ciciriello
Next time I am in Italy, I will definitely arrange one!
THAT'S SO NICE TO HEAR!
Ian, FYI, there's an issue with this upload at Full30.com
Forgotten Weapons Ian, I thought forgotten weapons was demonitized? I've been seeing ads lately.
Moondog66602 those are TH-cam ADS that have nothing to do with channels, like on many other gin related channels
what we all found out and continue to find out but we seem not to want to admit in the ammo cartridge war.... the sweds got it right in the 1880s/1890s...... 6.5 works
Wow that looks like a much better rifle than the Berthier or Lebel. Who knows what would've happened if these were adopted, though I'm sure WWI would've made it hard to introduce a new cartridge.
The 6.5mm Creedmor of the 1890s.
Hi..is your background in history? great vids :)
convictjoe if I remember, he mentionned a long time ago that his background was engeneering...?
Well, the debate might be still on, but I've yet to hear about a fully-charged 5,56 bullet going further, more accurately, and with a better penetration than a fully-charged 7,62.
I mean, the 7,62 is used in military and police sniper rifles, not the 5,56.
And soldiers having experienced fighting in Afghanistan have been known to complain about the lack of range of the 5,56, since the latter - correct me if necessary - hasn't been designed for combat distances longer than 100 to 300 meters.
So while Daudeteau's point about his bullet being superior to the Lebel 8 mm is correct,
I think it misses its target about the 5,56/7,62 debate.
This is just my two dimes of thought on the matter.
Briseur De Lance the 5.56 still brings plenty to the table in terms of its advantages. It is a lighter cartridge allowing for more ammo to be carried, it doesn’t recoil hard at all making it easier to shoot accurately, and it can be pushed past its practical effective range. A hit from a 5.56 within its effective range can prove just as lethal as any 7.62 round. The 7.62 is obviously going to be preferable in a sniper/marksman role due to it being a larger bullet and cartridge. That’s the problem though, there is no one do-it-all cartridge. Hence, why you see virtually every country employ a intermediate caliber assault rifle and a full power rifle round chambered in a marksman rifle. Also, you do see the occasional 5.56 marksman rifle like the Mk.12, S-DMR, and M38.
The reason why the .223 (or 5.56) is used even though it has less "stopping power" is because if you are over a hundred yards away from the enemy, and you were just wounded, you did not want to continue charging toward them. If you do decide to continue to stay and fight you will be at a disadvantage at trying to aim at an enemy who isn't wounded. It is very hard to keep a bead on target when you are bleeding and full of adrenaline.
Is that actually a reworked Berthier stock, or is the swell as styling affectation? I ask as I have a Warnant in 9mm Flobert with a similar (and useless) swell in the stock. I figured it was just turn of the century 'Froid Tactique'
I was mistaken in the video; the stock was made new in Indochina using tooling from Berthier stock production.
Thought there were too many and not enough cuts in it. Still interesting that they chose to duplicate or retain the swell when cutting flush would have been much easier to do - inletting the magazine etc.
is this the same gun that uruguay bought a few thousand of before going back to mausers?
Those were Mauser 71s rebarreled by SFAP for the 6.5mm Daudeteau cartridge. Same designer, and factory, but not the same guns.
I happen to have a Daudeteau S action that have unfortunately been somewhat
butchered (most markings ground off, some parts missing).
At first I thought it was just unfinished and had been taken from some
production line but in fact, I think it's just a rifle that has been stripped.
icefloe.homeip.net/~joel/guns_/images/Daudeteau/Daudeteau_S_01.png
icefloe.homeip.net/~joel/guns_/images/Daudeteau/Daudeteau_S_02.png
icefloe.homeip.net/~joel/guns_/images/Daudeteau/Daudeteau_S_03.png
icefloe.homeip.net/~joel/guns_/images/Daudeteau/Daudeteau_S_04.png
icefloe.homeip.net/~joel/guns_/images/Daudeteau/Daudeteau_S_05.png
icefloe.homeip.net/~joel/guns_/images/Daudeteau/Daudeteau_S_06.png
Does anyone know where you get the poster in the background?
C&Rsenal.
Es un derivado del Mosin 1891.
cartridge similar to Carcano 91
Hence they choosed a stange name to make the difference: 6.5x53.5 mm.
My sister just told me that you sound like the Doctor from Star Trek Voyager.
4:50 (ish) "Went clean through the cuirass and went another 1.68 metres or 5 feet of wood" - I'm calling bullshit. I find it hard to imagine that this projectile is capable of travelling through 5 feet of wood, particularly after travelling through a metal cuirass that was impervious to the 8mm Lebel round.
BatCaveOz - It was probably packed wood chips or filler of some kind (maybe even sawdust?) used as a backstop. I very much doubt it was solid wokd of any sort. Not unlike cloth filled boxes and similar things that people put behind blocks of ballistic gelatin today. Pretty impressive to punch both sides of the armor and keep going. Might tumble through a body too
Absolutely agree. Methinks this might be some optomistic marketing from the good folks at Daudeteau ;)
wut !? I live in St Denis and i never heard of an old weapon factory around :-(
You should do some searching and find it and send me photos :)
It was originally a Hotchkiss factory building, located at 134 rue de Paris.
I'll look it up and send you some pics if the old building's still there.
Keep up the dope work anyway !
I think Ians turning french, I really think so.
Cual es el precio tengo uno de esos
6.5mm like the Japanese and Italians were trying to replace with more powerful cartridge going into WWII.
Why were pump-action rifles never popular? They seem like a good median between a semi-auto rifle and a bolt action one. Yes, firing from prone is much harder with a pump action, but you get a significant increase in rate of fire when firing in any other position. I would speculate that a pump-action design would be easier to learn and would be more resistant to mud in the field, as you could completely enclose the breech and the action.
Thaddeus Howe The way the magazine works the rifle becomes front heavy and the cartridges have to be designed so the tip of the bullet doesn't bump into the primer of the round in front of it.
^This. Chain detonations were a thing for rifles with bullets sitting tip to primer which could potentially blow the gun up in the user's hands.
If Berthiers were in use in French Indochina did a lot of them turn up being used against America (and allies) in Vietnam in the 60/70s? I know that soviet/chicom weapons are ubiquitous but it is know that large numbers of other weapons were pressed into service too.
@ druisteen yes true. But if you look into it, a wide variety of ammo was used. don't forget Viet ability to reload/make ammunition. Very resourceful. Plus rifles can be re-bored to take a more conventional and readily available ammo calibre. Also you can issue e.g. these rifles and the stock of ammo in one province/smaller area, not need to spread them across the country. There are ways of using resources when you are desperate to defend yourself.
@druisteen...Let me clarify to help you understand my point...the NVA regular army used the Korean Type 58 rifle, Chinese type 56, some AK, AKM etc etc. The US was involved from at least 1955 in the region and faced both regular and non-regular troops. The non-regular VC used whatever they could lay hands on...in some cases and in some places. I Including antiquated rifles which do usually have a substantial amount of ammo per cache. I was not saying they were 'issued' or were common-place but accounts say they existed, especially earlier on. Also home-made weapons made to use the locally available type of ammo...whatever that may have been in that area and that time etc. They got more regimented supplies later on. I have read many accounts/biographies over the whole span of the war and there are many examples of weapons being obtained from the VC, which were not 'AK type' weapons at all. Far from it and many were colonial antiques with obviously rare calibers. Even British weapons and again they would have used .303 for example. And yes I'm talking during the Vietnam war between e.g. 1955-1975. By 1955 that is not the Indochinese war as such, its the interim period and start of the US war. Again, these weapons were often in small caches for local defence. Out of desperation, along with home-made and adapted weapons. You'd be surprised what turns up in wars, especially in non-front line areas, unless you have read into it, then you'll know. Look at Syria recently where WWII German assault rifles turned up, but you may deny that too as they use a rare round and 'everyone uses an AK.'
I think this discussion is getting a bit lost, ami. The whole point was that some Berthiers were in Indochina / Vietnam. That's that. Most armies can lose some weapons one way or another, despite best efforts + iron discipline etc. it is a fact. (Ambush, theft even being sold by squaddies or locals.) Could also be issued to local troops etc in some circumstances and not claimed back. Many factors. Given the pot pourri of weapons used in that region could it be some Berthiers turned up over the decades. That was the point and the question. I'm reckoning its not impossible. It really was just a side note though.
One more thing...I just googled 'Berthier Vietnam' and see a guy who has one as a 'battlefield/pickup, bring back' from Vietnam. Shows that they were available and in use in one form or another.
Example here....www.russian-mosin-nagant-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=28627#p394798
Also here, one used as a Viet sniper rifle and picked up by a Marine in the 1960s.
www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=895334
@ Druisteen (yet again!) I have intentionally not mentioned an en-mass issue of Berthiers. I don't believe it was remotely possible. I have clearly asked if ad-hoc caches of Berthiers turned up and were used in an ad-hoc way by ad-hoc units. (I have since added proof that they did.) You are adding words ('used massively') to validate your own view and try and win a totally pointless argument. 1. You keep missing my point (intentionally?) and 2. I would rather not argue with you sir! Let us bring this quarrel to an end, shall we! :)
Since the civilian version of that rifle has my name on it I'm gonna have to go ahead and say they are all mine now.
i really can't wait for the french gear coming up. for all the french design innovation in the field of firearms (since the beginning of firearms),it's surprising that they don't get the credit they're due.
Cause we're eating snails.
the french are already a bit arrogant, dont wanna feed their egos too much
interesting gun but how about those british SMG's from 3 months ago :/
klaasvaak0413
I'm captived what British smg are you talking about?
I wonder how many times did Ian practice pronouncing that name.
yes Indeed but he got it
But can you say the name 10 times fast
The wrinkles in that wall are really bugging me...