I would like Artosis to make a decision on what -- and when -- dear is supposed to sacrifice in order to get zealot legs in time. He was producing Carriers and Dragoons non-stop. He didn't begin to have extra gas until after the 4 Carriers were made, and he decided to immediately make 2 more Carriers after, which is the correct decision. If he decided to make a Citadel and research Zealot Legs, it wouldn't have finished before Flash's push anyway. He needed all those Goons and Carriers to win the fight. When, exactly, is he supposed to get zealot legs, and what is he supposed to cut in order to get them?
@@osirisra1476 if he put down the citadel at 9:20 in game time he could've done so without slowing anything down and upgrading legs as soon as it finishes would only delay the 6th carrier by about 100 gas. Usually you delay the 3rd Nexus and make a few more zealots instead of dragoons to facilitate this. Rich made lots of zealots and he did delay the Nexus, just he did so floating 700 minerals without building the Citadel. Also think about it, 2 base carrier build will make your ground army zealot heavy naturally. I'd argue that legs upgrade has a high synergy with this build and in most games will give you more time to get carriers than the 6th carrier will afford you. It is not like the 6th carrier comes out and now it's all ok for Protoss you're not going to get that tasty ~7 minute Citadel with this build but yeah. definitely could've had legs for the fight.
@@worldermusic5214Producing the two extra carriers ASAP puts a clock on the Terran. He correctly ascertained he didn't need to worry about zealot legs at all. Carriers are just that OP. He could've taken even more damage and still won. If Flash was not cross position then I think you have a stronger argument.
You're right about the cross spawn bit but not the rest. Perhaps if there was more than 14 interceptors, less than 2 carriers worth of dps, because at no point in this game does Rich ever get the interceptor upgrade, then your own argument would be a lot stronger. 8 zealots without speed in this game did more than 8 speedlots usually do in an ASL match because Flash didn't have any units blocking pathing in front of his tanks. 1 scarab and some dragoon shots + 8 zealots take out more than half of the tanks towards the very start of the whole engagement. The carriers did very little in this fight, as I said there was only 14 interceptors, less than 2 carriers of dps, and I don't know how many times Arty has to say it but that's really not a significant contribution to the army. Your comment about the timing should also really indicate to you why the Zealot legs are so important. Do you think that Protoss going this strat plan is to just get the 6+ carriers before the timing, and fall over if Terran hits Protoss before the timer has counted down? Flash did hit the timing and if the players could replay this fight 10 times I bet not only does the victor vary, but Flash would win most of them. If you want to increase your winrate with 2 base carrier, be sure to heed Arty's words here because zealot legs will give you more time as it is much more threat to the Terrans movement. If you don't die to Terrans timing, 10 seconds delay on some of the later carriers 6+ is not as significant as we usually think a 10 second delay on something is because you're going to be coming out insanely favorable in engagements for the rest of the game if you don't stupidly lose the carriers. And you'll have more bases.
The original starcraft manual says you should go wraiths vs carriers. "Tarsonian technicians found that small, dynamic high-speed fighters could repeatedly deal damage to large ships while still evading most defensive battery attacks. "
PSL has been awesome, I hope you’re able to keep doing it! I watch SSL before PSL though and they’re both long videos so sometimes there’s a delay before I get to the PSL matches. The recent Zelot vs Royal games were great! Thanks for the casts
Carriers are super strong as many people mention in the comments yet the matchup is basically perfectly balanced. Thing is that there are so many downsides to carriers : they offer a huge timing window to Terran to exploit before reaching critical mass, and more importantly, they usually come late game when there are lots of bases and they can’t be at once everywhere. That specific build is a bit problematic because all those inconveniences at negated. There are few bases on that map, and the 12 nexus means there is no obvious timing window where protoss will be weak.
They dont have to be everywhere. Destroy base with units production, and than slaughter survivors. Even if terran have huge bank, he dont have enought scv's or time for real fast rebuild. It's a true power of protoss. One probe with enought huge bank, plus 90 seconds and you have second Aiur in a blink of eye in place what was empty desert or Shrek swamp.
I feel like mines from vultures were not really a factor in that engagement. But then not having zealots legs kinda balanced not having mines really set up for the push
Regarding PSL - I do want to watch, even if I complain about the sound and brightness (though you have nothing to do with those). Anyway, I love this channel. It's the one I watch the most since I found it. Got me back to following Brood War tournaments (and supporting the SSL Tastosis casts - those plugs didn't go unnoticed). So keep on going, hopefully for at least another 20 years or so
You know what would have tipped the scale for the Terran in that fight....A few floating buildings. I don't know why that has fallen back out of favor.
floating buildings are a huge cost, both minerals and time to build and then float them, thats why it not done often. it can be a good strat its just impractical.
Agreed. During a game, Tasteless lost to a floating barracks that stopped his Dragoons from pushing into the tanks with Zealots. Spending 150 minerals to possibly save a bunch of tanks seems like a no-brainer move to me too.
against super abusive builds like this I would like to see Terran lean into an all-in more in the timing push. you're already in a 'must-win' immediately position so u may as well just go fully all in and pull ~8-10 scvs. it's going to be extremely APM-intensive, but you can build turrets, repair, or just be 60 hp meat shields. Maybe even land my rax a minute or two earlier and pump nonstop marines just to really squeeze out as much dps as i can in the all-in. Flash was super close to holding and even won the battle with 4-5 tanks and 1 goliath left over....problem was the interceptors just rebuilt faster than flash could reinforce...but if flash had a bunch of scvs that built turrets I believe he would have won.
you are right! in sc2 as zerg if i see a carrier rush i am allining with hydras, and i'm skipping range and speed for them cos i just need LOTS of them to delete the interceptors.
Thanks for doing all the Flash casts! You successfully baited me into subscribing even though I'm watching so much Starcraft content already. Now if only you could play like him instead of getting Marines stuck on each other. 😛
i don't find it either a boring or an anti-climactic game; the respective strategies meeting made it interesting to see how things would shake down, and it literally had a huge climax in that battle, which actually ended up being very close. what, are you blind??
These analytical Casts are a nice change of pace from asl as there’s so much insight. Both casts are good for different reasons just something I really enjoyed about this one
@8:28 And I see no Science facility! He might be skipping it. Flash is so ahead of Artosis because Science Facility was floating to give vision for the Goliaths in the base
Take down half the Goliaths, then go for tanks. How many years have I been seeing this now, let alone Artosis! *Would this be 1 more fact slightly earlier, Flash is pushing & the bank gets insane really quickly.
Arty can you watch that fight again and let me know if I'm insane? What I'm looking at is surreal. There are only 14 interceptors in this fight. You could have more interceptors with 2 carriers than what Rich was working with between 4. The zealots who skipped leg day seemed to win this fight. a single reaver scarab and 8 slow zealots took out 8 siege tanks without any dragoon assistance and very little carrier damage output. These 8 tanks were in the front leaving only 6 tanks behind the goliaths after that, 2 of which did not siege until after the 8 front tanks were lost. Flash did not lay a single mine with the vultures or have any preset up mines. Most of the vultures got stuck behind the tanks when the tanks sieged, either way there are no units that block the slow zealots, making them more effective than fast zealots usually are when there's a good amount of vultures in front of the tanks. The gols are behind the 8 tanks too. I think you missed this because, you're casting a Flash game, this kind of thing shouldn't be on your radar right? Unfortunately, what I think I'm looking at here is the worst siege I've ever seen Flash perform. Because of the 6gate and late 3rd (even for 2 base carrier) I see Flash's gg as premature, but it makes more sense to me when I consider that he would know that this engagement did not have to go that badly, and he'd be kicking himself. The position Flash is in after the engagement is probably not something he has much interest in if he still believes that push should be the correct way to deal with his opponents play.
quick ammendment; there were some significant dragoon shots on 2 of the 8 tanks that got swarmed by zealots but otherwise was zealot dps + splash damage that killed the rest of the front line tanks.
Regardless of audio, I just want to see tournament play. PSL and any other smaller tournaments like that (CNSL, etc.) fills that itch that SSL leaves when the games dry up. Thanks!
Do you think floating the rax and ebay would've helped soak dragoon shots and tilted the math in the Terran's favor? That and not hitting the zealots with tank shots to cook the goons faster is the only things that come to mind that could've been done better here.
So unless I missed something, he not only skipped Citadel, but the Interceptor upgrade as well? I didn't see him make that upgrade, which is weird to me because he was definitely floating enough resources to make it. Is that done intentionally to limit the amount of minerals spent when you spam build Interceptors?
@@ErkiEntveg How much damage do you think valks do to the carriers themselves? they're doing 6dmg 8 times. Carrier has base 4 armor. Each instance of valk damage is going to be reduced by armor, so they're doing 2dmg x8 per volley. You would need 5 volleys from 4valks to kill carriers which would take over 13s And that's not even considering that the carriers can just target down the valks.
I love competitive broodwar, but PSL competes with SSL in my longform-tournament-watching time, and SSL wins out since it is THE tournament. In my perfect world, PSL would happen about 2 weeks after the SSL ends to create a continuous stream of very high level broodwar. Obviously you can't control that, but I personally wouldn't mind if your cast of PSL were delayed until after SSL had finished airing.
When they are in Siege mode tanks act like static defence, with the exception that you can select them like units. And you cannot shift+attack static D in BW.
i hope flash come back or soulkey is gonna continue crushing every terran he come across also i like psl but it would be even better if you bring tastless for next season its always a blast when you cast together and has always thank for the games
No doubt cross spawn nexus first into 2 base carrier is an IMBA build, but just out of interest on counters... First, everything has to go right, meaning as Terran you have the 1 depot 15 CC hyper optimized build as you see here. Scan and see the carrier build right away or early enough... I wonder if you go faster factory adds 1-1 timing against this on a single armory? No starport or science facility, no second armory, 2 base mega all-in? Should have a few more units at the cost of +2 weapon, although in theory +2 weapon helps a lot...? Second, if balancing this carefully to not throw the balance of the rest of the game, what small changes could be made? For example, add more build time to carriers? Make the additional interceptor upgrade extremely long? I'm a noob but in my head I feel like adding more time for the carriers to become more potent feels like one approach...
bw will never get a balance change, if they were to nerf carriers my suggestion would be to lower the max amount of interceptors to 6 to reduce their supply efficiency and reduce the amount of interceptors on screen as for what could terran do better? as a complete noob i wouldnt know, but i think pulling some more scvs to help tank and repair, and maybe bringing the barracks or ebay to absorb dragoon shots
Ghost builds will be the counter to this. I've made some calculations and its absolutely possible to fit in some Ghost into this particular build that Flash used to counter the Carriers and the Shuttle with Reavers(still needs decent execution) at the expense of the 2/1 upgrades. You omit the 2nd armory and only go +1 or 1/1 at most and sacrifice a couple of Goliaths initially to fit in the Ghosts or if you wanna go more in line with the meta Flash the moment he saw the Carrier tech(and he saw it very very early, like just after the 1st Stargate was finished) he could have gone insta 3rd CC on location at 12 to get a gas base, fake a big push and roll back take very fast 4th and go huge eco mass turret + 10-11 Factories and go from there. To be honest in the only and final battle the Carriers werent even online yet. They had very little interceptors that got shot down immediately and 4 Carriers just stood there and watched. Protoss won the battle due to having a big ground army and the 2 Reavers that did some decent scarab shots at the start of the battle.
Personally, I can't deal with too speaking audio streams layered over each other. Unit confirmations blend into the background after a while, but the "noisy" streams with the other casters I had to turn off after just a few minutes. Your clean casts are fine (just you talking) and your streams are fine (just chat shitposting), but I would much rather have muted game sounds then hear 2 sets of casters talking at the same time, personally. Everyone else prefers the extra sound thats fine, but I'll personally be skipping them then.
the matchs starts at 0.0. pro0toss had too much time. in the end, without haras flash could have focused on the carriers in the micro war. terran didnt use any high tech stuff. maybe go mines, lockdown etc. ghosts, medics, scvessel etc. maybe camp with the ghosts on the opponent base and spam lockdown if he try to move out
I think it happens a lot naturally if they both immediately go into another match right after one ends. There probably aren’t a ton of other available players to match with at the same time with that skill level
@@dj_koen1265 Sir, the interceptor upgrade costs 100/100 and doubles the capacity of interceptors, which is the entire dps of the carrier. carriers cost 250 gas, there is no world in which you skip the interceptor upgrade to save money when you are going carriers. I'm 99% sure it is a total blunder and if I was going to try to justify as intentional I could maybe believe an argument that Rich was trying to surprise Flash with a large amount of gateway units for someone who is going 2 base carrier. You'd have thought he'd get legs if that was his intention, but I think we are just watching two great players make big mistakes. @ OP, thankyou for restoring my faith in the comment section haha. There are only 14 interceptors and 4 carriers; you can have 16 interceptors with 2 carriers. It's like 1/400 games I feel like Artosis missed what I see as the most relevant aspects of the game. But this is one of them, and it's not the interceptors either. That siege from Flash was terrible, just look at it yourself. It's rare for speedlots to be as effective in a fight as slow zealots were this game. But sieging all the tanks at the front and having all the vultures either way too far in front of the army or behind the tanks meant that the first 8 zealots WITHOUT SPEED were able to walk forwards and remove 8 tanks from that fight with the help of 1 scarab and very few dragoon shots. Very early on into the fight there were only 4 tanks left in siege mode.
Man, that's rough. IDK what Flash could've done differently. The problem is that Goliaths kinda suck at their job. Technically they have a good range but b/c they are ground units in order to counter carriers most of them have to be much closer in which case they get steamrolled by the Protoss ground army before they even get a chance to fire. The obvious solution (which will never happen) is that Valks should do splash damage to interceptors. There is zero logical reason as to why they don't, other than it makes Carriers suck, which IMO would be a good thing.
@@TheInverseable For now. Further down the line someone will invent a build, strat or a new unit comp that will make this 12 Nexus into fast 2 base Carrier build manageable.
@@chibinya I meant a build that is not a complete all in chese that straight dies to everything else other than Nexus first, just like you've said. Check Rush vs Rain ASL quarter finals for a reference.
I know this is beating a dead horse. The PSL streams are awesome, I'd love to watch them, but even when it's quiet the conflicting English and Korean commentary give me a headache after a few minutes. I'd watch the hell out of them if they were replays or a clean feed.
My experience against toss and carriers are from a terran exclusive experience, and my experience is as follows: Carriers wouldn’t be so OP if: 1) the interceptors wouldn’t heal to full health when they ducked back into the carrier (seemingly, i never looked up the details, but fighting so many carriers over the years this is what it felt like) 2) interceptors swarming all over the screen made it extremely difficult to target the carriers directly. 3) attack move AI was improved so that goliaths would automatically attack the carriers directly instead of targeting interceptors like dummies 4) improving the ability for the terran player to execute lockdowns against carriers. On paper, you would think terrans should be invincible against carriers with “OP” units like the goliath and ghost, but the reality of trying to lockdown a carrier through an interceptor swarm is equivalent to pissing through a needle. Over 50% of the time, i *GUARANTEE* you, you will hit an interceptor instead of the carrier by mistake with lockdown. Because of the massive cost of lockdown, the resources and time it takes to invest in ghosts, and the time it takes for a ghost to reach max energy - you will probably already have 80% of your bases destroyed or your army decimated. 5) optical flare is a joke against Terran. The only thing i have ever seen successfully executing optical flare against an observer was AI. On paper, the terran go-to to destroy carriers would be ghosts to lockdown, goliaths to destroy the carriers, and optical flare on observers so the ghosts can be protected. Same problem with lockdown, trying to hit multiple tiny observers through a carrier group and interceptor swarm is a pipe dream.
Couse Flash lost army and dont killed even single carrier. He fought against four, so he knowed that next two just poped in anytime and protoss get magical number of 6 carriers.
@@ArtosisCasts they actually do but in a unique way. so unlike goliaths/wraiths whose missles go dead if their target dies in flight. valkyrie missle splash hits a new target if the original dies. so while they may not aoe like normal they will not waste missles or get distracted by zealots like goliaths
@@wargumbyx Im glad im not the only one to realize that. Goliaths/wraiths waste missiles not only when a target goes dead, but they also overkill interceptors that stray too far from the Carrier and many of your units will acquire it as a target and waste shots, also when or if the interceptors go inside the Carrier to heal or if the Carrier stops attacking Turrets/Gols/Wraiths shots are wasted, but Valkyries halo rocekts ALWAYS hit something and while they do not deal splash dmg to interceptors, if a stray halo rocket hits an Interceptor close to the Carrier it WILL deal splash damage to the Carrier itself. But in this game i dont think Flash had money to go Valks on 2 base, thats more of a 3 or 4 base thing. He either had to expand to a 3rd the moment he saw the Stargates building (which was pretty much as early as he could have possibly have seen them) or like Artosis said go for an even faster timing with only +1 or 1/1 at most, when there will be 2 Carriers on the field. But he chose the 7 fact timing and couldnt pull it off. GGs.
@@stambe8605 i think the cost is deferred by the fact that you stop making tanks to fight the zealots and make valkyries instead. mass tank into even small amounts of carriers is losing because they cant keep up with the battle and sieging in combat means the tanks are almost always losing
Never skip zealot leg day.
dear: hold my beear
I would like Artosis to make a decision on what -- and when -- dear is supposed to sacrifice in order to get zealot legs in time. He was producing Carriers and Dragoons non-stop. He didn't begin to have extra gas until after the 4 Carriers were made, and he decided to immediately make 2 more Carriers after, which is the correct decision. If he decided to make a Citadel and research Zealot Legs, it wouldn't have finished before Flash's push anyway. He needed all those Goons and Carriers to win the fight. When, exactly, is he supposed to get zealot legs, and what is he supposed to cut in order to get them?
@@osirisra1476 if he put down the citadel at 9:20 in game time he could've done so without slowing anything down and upgrading legs as soon as it finishes would only delay the 6th carrier by about 100 gas. Usually you delay the 3rd Nexus and make a few more zealots instead of dragoons to facilitate this. Rich made lots of zealots and he did delay the Nexus, just he did so floating 700 minerals without building the Citadel. Also think about it, 2 base carrier build will make your ground army zealot heavy naturally. I'd argue that legs upgrade has a high synergy with this build and in most games will give you more time to get carriers than the 6th carrier will afford you. It is not like the 6th carrier comes out and now it's all ok for Protoss
you're not going to get that tasty ~7 minute Citadel with this build but yeah. definitely could've had legs for the fight.
@@worldermusic5214Producing the two extra carriers ASAP puts a clock on the Terran. He correctly ascertained he didn't need to worry about zealot legs at all. Carriers are just that OP. He could've taken even more damage and still won. If Flash was not cross position then I think you have a stronger argument.
You're right about the cross spawn bit but not the rest. Perhaps if there was more than 14 interceptors, less than 2 carriers worth of dps, because at no point in this game does Rich ever get the interceptor upgrade, then
your own argument would be a lot stronger.
8 zealots without speed in this game did more than 8 speedlots usually do in an ASL match because Flash didn't have any units blocking pathing in front of his tanks. 1 scarab and some dragoon shots + 8 zealots take out more than half of the tanks towards the very start of the whole engagement. The carriers did very little in this fight, as I said there was only 14 interceptors, less than 2 carriers of dps, and I don't know how many times Arty has to say it but that's really not a significant contribution to the army.
Your comment about the timing should also really indicate to you why the Zealot legs are so important. Do you think that Protoss going this strat plan is to just get the 6+ carriers before the timing, and fall over if Terran hits Protoss before the timer has counted down? Flash did hit the timing and if the players could replay this fight 10 times I bet not only does the victor vary, but Flash would win most of them.
If you want to increase your winrate with 2 base carrier, be sure to heed Arty's words here because zealot legs will give you more time as it is much more threat to the Terrans movement. If you don't die to Terrans timing, 10 seconds delay on some of the later carriers 6+ is not as significant as we usually think a 10 second delay on something is because you're going to be coming out insanely favorable in engagements for the rest of the game if you don't stupidly lose the carriers. And you'll have more bases.
If Artosis ever falls into a coma, wake him up by saying "Cross spawn nexus first"
ahahahahaha
ahahahahaha.
@@iago7456 Add "Into greedy fast 2 base Carrier" to put him back into a coma again.
or "leglots"
"terran isn't any harder than protoss"
The original starcraft manual says you should go wraiths vs carriers.
"Tarsonian technicians found that small, dynamic high-speed fighters could repeatedly deal damage to large ships while still evading most defensive battery attacks. "
Tarsonian technicians should have build Wraiths from something other than paper.
meanwhile wraiths take full damage from every anti air attack in the game because they are Large units
It's a little known fact that the song "Paper Planes" was written by a B rank Terran player
@@sneediumminer If they were small units like mutalisks, they would be so good
reminds me of the official diablo 2 strategy guide
Dxracer
PSL has been awesome, I hope you’re able to keep doing it! I watch SSL before PSL though and they’re both long videos so sometimes there’s a delay before I get to the PSL matches. The recent Zelot vs Royal games were great! Thanks for the casts
Carriers are super strong as many people mention in the comments yet the matchup is basically perfectly balanced. Thing is that there are so many downsides to carriers : they offer a huge timing window to Terran to exploit before reaching critical mass, and more importantly, they usually come late game when there are lots of bases and they can’t be at once everywhere.
That specific build is a bit problematic because all those inconveniences at negated. There are few bases on that map, and the 12 nexus means there is no obvious timing window where protoss will be weak.
well said.
They dont have to be everywhere. Destroy base with units production, and than slaughter survivors. Even if terran have huge bank, he dont have enought scv's or time for real fast rebuild. It's a true power of protoss. One probe with enought huge bank, plus 90 seconds and you have second Aiur in a blink of eye in place what was empty desert or Shrek swamp.
I feel like mines from vultures were not really a factor in that engagement. But then not having zealots legs kinda balanced not having mines really set up for the push
I'm guessing BCs are out of the question in this scenario due to the timing of falling too far behind?
@@farming4g Yeah, why aren't yamato cannons a counter to carriers?
pleeease keep casting the psl. I dont know about others but I super dont mind the like background sound of the korean casters
Regarding PSL - I do want to watch, even if I complain about the sound and brightness (though you have nothing to do with those).
Anyway, I love this channel. It's the one I watch the most since I found it. Got me back to following Brood War tournaments (and supporting the SSL Tastosis casts - those plugs didn't go unnoticed).
So keep on going, hopefully for at least another 20 years or so
Definitely enjoying the PSL! Cheers!
You know what would have tipped the scale for the Terran in that fight....A few floating buildings. I don't know why that has fallen back out of favor.
floating buildings are a huge cost, both minerals and time to build and then float them, thats why it not done often. it can be a good strat its just impractical.
That's some crazy talk.
Might as well call it Crazy Terran.
Agreed. During a game, Tasteless lost to a floating barracks that stopped his Dragoons from pushing into the tanks with Zealots. Spending 150 minerals to possibly save a bunch of tanks seems like a no-brainer move to me too.
@@thejubbinator1065 this kinda implies they are just gonna a-move and not micro against it. tasteless, sure, but 2700 protoss idk
@@soldier22881 I wouldn't call 125 minerals a "huge cost" to be honest. It does take a long time and some forward planning though.
I tried sleeping in, but I woke with a chill. Little did I know that Arty had posted another banger and thank you sir for doing that!
i'm getting chills
Flash lost even without enemy having zealot legs, so i can only imagine how much worse he'd have lost if zealots had legs.
against super abusive builds like this I would like to see Terran lean into an all-in more in the timing push. you're already in a 'must-win' immediately position so u may as well just go fully all in and pull ~8-10 scvs. it's going to be extremely APM-intensive, but you can build turrets, repair, or just be 60 hp meat shields. Maybe even land my rax a minute or two earlier and pump nonstop marines just to really squeeze out as much dps as i can in the all-in.
Flash was super close to holding and even won the battle with 4-5 tanks and 1 goliath left over....problem was the interceptors just rebuilt faster than flash could reinforce...but if flash had a bunch of scvs that built turrets I believe he would have won.
marines are decent vs interceptors too
That would be a crazy all-in tho
you are right! in sc2 as zerg if i see a carrier rush i am allining with hydras, and i'm skipping range and speed for them cos i just need LOTS of them to delete the interceptors.
The thumbnail of flash staring down the nexus made me laugh so fucking hard. Amazing.
Flash vs Soulkey bo7 needs to happen
Maybe in SSL spring 2025? 🤞
Soulkey would spank right now. Flash still has a lot to prove.
High Templar: Executor! We dont have zelot legs uppgrade. We dont have even citadel of Adun.
Executor: Quantity is a quality.
Executor Stalin called it correctly.
Thanks for doing all the Flash casts! You successfully baited me into subscribing even though I'm watching so much Starcraft content already.
Now if only you could play like him instead of getting Marines stuck on each other. 😛
PSL is great. Hope you keep casting it. Cheers
Such a boring anti-climatic game, but Arty discussing theory and strategy the whole time makes it interesting and worth the watch. Amazing
i don't find it either a boring or an anti-climactic game; the respective strategies meeting made it interesting to see how things would shake down, and it literally had a huge climax in that battle, which actually ended up being very close. what, are you blind??
@@cl8804 i complimented how the theory and strategy aspect was interesting, so chill out. Not everyone enjoys stuff in that exact same way that you do
@@TheBrettdenver good man
These analytical
Casts are a nice change of pace from asl as there’s so much insight. Both casts are good for different reasons just something I really enjoyed about this one
got up this morning and chills hit me - there must be a new SC Brood War vid up 😂
@8:28 And I see no Science facility! He might be skipping it. Flash is so ahead of Artosis because Science Facility was floating to give vision for the Goliaths in the base
I enjoy watching the Flash redemption arc. Thanks for covering it.
Terrans biggest weakness - Protoss.
You mean nexus first carrier.
Absolutely
Every toss player is a weak human in my opinion. So stupid easy to win with
𝒫 ℛ 𝒪 𝒯 𝒪 𝒮 𝒮 ℰ 𝒟 ™
PROOOOTOOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSSSSSSSS (in useless' voice)
Flash would have..... Wait uh. The matrix as glitch.
Take down half the Goliaths, then go for tanks. How many years have I been seeing this now, let alone Artosis!
*Would this be 1 more fact slightly earlier, Flash is pushing & the bank gets insane really quickly.
Arty can you watch that fight again and let me know if I'm insane? What I'm looking at is surreal. There are only 14 interceptors in this fight. You could have more interceptors with 2 carriers than what Rich was working with between 4. The zealots who skipped leg day seemed to win this fight. a single reaver scarab and 8 slow zealots took out 8 siege tanks without any dragoon assistance and very little carrier damage output. These 8 tanks were in the front leaving only 6 tanks behind the goliaths after that, 2 of which did not siege until after the 8 front tanks were lost.
Flash did not lay a single mine with the vultures or have any preset up mines. Most of the vultures got stuck behind the tanks when the tanks sieged, either way there are no units that block the slow zealots, making them more effective than fast zealots usually are when there's a good amount of vultures in front of the tanks. The gols are behind the 8 tanks too.
I think you missed this because, you're casting a Flash game, this kind of thing shouldn't be on your radar right? Unfortunately, what I think I'm looking at here is the worst siege I've ever seen Flash perform. Because of the 6gate and late 3rd (even for 2 base carrier) I see Flash's gg as premature, but it makes more sense to me when I consider that he would know that this engagement did not have to go that badly, and he'd be kicking himself. The position Flash is in after the engagement is probably not something he has much interest in if he still believes that push should be the correct way to deal with his opponents play.
quick ammendment; there were some significant dragoon shots on 2 of the 8 tanks that got swarmed by zealots but otherwise was zealot dps + splash damage that killed the rest of the front line tanks.
Absolutely right assessment. I did a similar response to another guy's post in the comment of this video.
Regardless of audio, I just want to see tournament play. PSL and any other smaller tournaments like that (CNSL, etc.) fills that itch that SSL leaves when the games dry up. Thanks!
Damn you’re good at the breakdowns
The PSL even without a clean feed has been great. Please don't stop!
Welcome back to Artosis casts… 😊
Even the zealots felt the chills in this map and were unable to run.
When you do everything "right" according to the meta theory but still get beaten.
Do you think floating the rax and ebay would've helped soak dragoon shots and tilted the math in the Terran's favor? That and not hitting the zealots with tank shots to cook the goons faster is the only things that come to mind that could've been done better here.
That was a good fight carriers are my favorite protoss unit
So unless I missed something, he not only skipped Citadel, but the Interceptor upgrade as well? I didn't see him make that upgrade, which is weird to me because he was definitely floating enough resources to make it. Is that done intentionally to limit the amount of minerals spent when you spam build Interceptors?
That makes no sense, Carriers are not Reavers. The upgrade is cheap, and Carriers with only 4 interceptors have much weaker DPS.
@@ozar_midrashim Well yeah, 90% sure it was a mistake, but I'm not a pro player. Can't ever assume what they do isn't intentional.
Very instructive game.
Would ghosts be of any use to lockdown carriers? Given terran has some time to prep before the carriers are a threat.
its not reliable enough and costs too much to get so early in the game
50 gas for the addon, 200 for the tech, 150 for two ghosts that only need 100 energy to lockdown one carrier each
This is why Flash has been doing bunker rushes.
Are valkyries vs carriers a thing?
I am watching, and enjoying, and whatnot.
shoulda started lockdown right after that scan
Does science vessel's EMP take out the shields of all close-by carriers or only the one targeted?
Everything in radius of schock wave. Mana burned too.
Love the PSL casts if its viable for you to continue producing/casting.
You guys remember when RT would read the comments as he poops? He has forgotten about us, the little guy :(
Or made he doesnt poop anymore 🤔
*dan, please explain to us why in SSL the players names display differently in the lobby chat compared to the lobby player board*
What about Battlecruisers? Or add Valkyres?
BCs are way too slow, and Valks don't deal splash to interceptors
@@atypewriter One EMP to carriers to take down shields and then 4 valks to make splash to carriers.
@@ErkiEntveg How much damage do you think valks do to the carriers themselves? they're doing 6dmg 8 times. Carrier has base 4 armor. Each instance of valk damage is going to be reduced by armor, so they're doing 2dmg x8 per volley. You would need 5 volleys from 4valks to kill carriers which would take over 13s
And that's not even considering that the carriers can just target down the valks.
pretty sure Artosis played on Flash's account xD
0:08 flassssh!!
Do terrans need to start bbs in the middle of the map occasionally to punish nexus first?
I love competitive broodwar, but PSL competes with SSL in my longform-tournament-watching time, and SSL wins out since it is THE tournament. In my perfect world, PSL would happen about 2 weeks after the SSL ends to create a continuous stream of very high level broodwar. Obviously you can't control that, but I personally wouldn't mind if your cast of PSL were delayed until after SSL had finished airing.
Vulture drop and get a third behind it...?
If you know carrier can you throw in some ghosts with lockdown or is it too slow and cost too much gas
Very effective but very complicate for humans. AI can do it much easly couse it have bilions hands and mouses.
You would need to lockdown 1 at that point to tip the scale
Can't you Shift Attack Target your Tanks on those Goons? So they attack one then the other and other when they done?
noo
When they are in Siege mode tanks act like static defence, with the exception that you can select them like units. And you cannot shift+attack static D in BW.
WIfetosis cough at 2:32. Arty is sitting down during this cast based off the direction of the sound.
kinda gay
@@cl8804 Shut up bitch
I must be frederick cook because i've got CHILLS
Flash could stop all wars and create world peace
i hope flash come back or soulkey is gonna continue crushing every terran he come across also i like psl but it would be even better if you bring tastless for next season its always a blast when you cast together and has always thank for the games
How are you getting on the waitlist?
Look at how Flash skimped on early defense due to cross-spawn! There is a reason he is the greatest of all time!!!
No legs no interceptors upgrade. What?
No doubt cross spawn nexus first into 2 base carrier is an IMBA build, but just out of interest on counters...
First, everything has to go right, meaning as Terran you have the 1 depot 15 CC hyper optimized build as you see here. Scan and see the carrier build right away or early enough...
I wonder if you go faster factory adds 1-1 timing against this on a single armory? No starport or science facility, no second armory, 2 base mega all-in? Should have a few more units at the cost of +2 weapon, although in theory +2 weapon helps a lot...?
Second, if balancing this carefully to not throw the balance of the rest of the game, what small changes could be made? For example, add more build time to carriers? Make the additional interceptor upgrade extremely long? I'm a noob but in my head I feel like adding more time for the carriers to become more potent feels like one approach...
bw will never get a balance change, if they were to nerf carriers my suggestion would be to lower the max amount of interceptors to 6 to reduce their supply efficiency and reduce the amount of interceptors on screen
as for what could terran do better? as a complete noob i wouldnt know, but i think pulling some more scvs to help tank and repair, and maybe bringing the barracks or ebay to absorb dragoon shots
Ghost builds will be the counter to this. I've made some calculations and its absolutely possible to fit in some Ghost into this particular build that Flash used to counter the Carriers and the Shuttle with Reavers(still needs decent execution) at the expense of the 2/1 upgrades. You omit the 2nd armory and only go +1 or 1/1 at most and sacrifice a couple of Goliaths initially to fit in the Ghosts or if you wanna go more in line with the meta Flash the moment he saw the Carrier tech(and he saw it very very early, like just after the 1st Stargate was finished) he could have gone insta 3rd CC on location at 12 to get a gas base, fake a big push and roll back take very fast 4th and go huge eco mass turret + 10-11 Factories and go from there. To be honest in the only and final battle the Carriers werent even online yet. They had very little interceptors that got shot down immediately and 4 Carriers just stood there and watched. Protoss won the battle due to having a big ground army and the 2 Reavers that did some decent scarab shots at the start of the battle.
flash up against cross nexus first, OH DEAR. ahahah get it!?!?
PSL is great content imo
All that fellating just for Flash to get absolutely crushed...
I like PSL, please continue:)
Blows my mind that he did a firebat drop in the mineral line.
Personally, I can't deal with too speaking audio streams layered over each other. Unit confirmations blend into the background after a while, but the "noisy" streams with the other casters I had to turn off after just a few minutes. Your clean casts are fine (just you talking) and your streams are fine (just chat shitposting), but I would much rather have muted game sounds then hear 2 sets of casters talking at the same time, personally. Everyone else prefers the extra sound thats fine, but I'll personally be skipping them then.
the matchs starts at 0.0. pro0toss had too much time. in the end, without haras flash could have focused on the carriers in the micro war. terran didnt use any high tech stuff. maybe go mines, lockdown etc. ghosts, medics, scvessel etc. maybe camp with the ghosts on the opponent base and spam lockdown if he try to move out
@artosis do these pros just run into each other on the ladder and decide to keep playing each other?
Sometimes they do, but oftentimes they organize private lobbies particularly for sponsored showmatches (called "sponbang" in informal Korean).
I think it happens a lot naturally if they both immediately go into another match right after one ends. There probably aren’t a ton of other available players to match with at the same time with that skill level
I don’t think I‘ve ever seen protoss lose any Carrier to Goliaths
Do keep up the PSL, sure it would be better with clean feed, but more Starcraft is good :)
Why hasn't Flash come back to ASSL yet??
he has nothing to prove. everyone knows the name flash.
@@TheInverseable Eventually he will get the itch. Everyone does at some point.
Am i crazy or was there no interceptor upgrade?
Nope, I didn't see it either, see my comment. Maybe intentional to limit mineral spending?
@@NealX_Gaming its probably to save gas for other stuff
@@dj_koen1265 Sir, the interceptor upgrade costs 100/100 and doubles the capacity of interceptors, which is the entire dps of the carrier. carriers cost 250 gas, there is no world in which you skip the interceptor upgrade to save money when you are going carriers. I'm 99% sure it is a total blunder and if I was going to try to justify as intentional I could maybe believe an argument that Rich was trying to surprise Flash with a large amount of gateway units for someone who is going 2 base carrier. You'd have thought he'd get legs if that was his intention, but I think we are just watching two great players make big mistakes.
@ OP, thankyou for restoring my faith in the comment section haha. There are only 14 interceptors and 4 carriers; you can have 16 interceptors with 2 carriers. It's like 1/400 games I feel like Artosis missed what I see as the most relevant aspects of the game. But this is one of them, and it's not the interceptors either. That siege from Flash was terrible, just look at it yourself. It's rare for speedlots to be as effective in a fight as slow zealots were this game. But sieging all the tanks at the front and having all the vultures either way too far in front of the army or behind the tanks meant that the first 8 zealots WITHOUT SPEED were able to walk forwards and remove 8 tanks from that fight with the help of 1 scarab and very few dragoon shots. Very early on into the fight there were only 4 tanks left in siege mode.
Man, that's rough. IDK what Flash could've done differently. The problem is that Goliaths kinda suck at their job. Technically they have a good range but b/c they are ground units in order to counter carriers most of them have to be much closer in which case they get steamrolled by the Protoss ground army before they even get a chance to fire. The obvious solution (which will never happen) is that Valks should do splash damage to interceptors. There is zero logical reason as to why they don't, other than it makes Carriers suck, which IMO would be a good thing.
There is no counter to this.
@@TheInverseable For now. Further down the line someone will invent a build, strat or a new unit comp that will make this 12 Nexus into fast 2 base Carrier build manageable.
@@stambe8605 Get em with 2-rax rush or bunker! Autolose if guess wrong or dont micro perfectly
@@chibinya I meant a build that is not a complete all in chese that straight dies to everything else other than Nexus first, just like you've said. Check Rush vs Rain ASL quarter finals for a reference.
The classic carriers are so much cooler than the sc2 version
''Áh Misteur Arbtois, Kross Spaun Nexoos Fuurst!''
I wonder if Protoss players feel dirty after this build and have to shower afterwards..? GG!
Flash would of won
Sad to see Zealots got their gym membership revoked. =\
Wasn’t dear an sc2 player?
I prefer PSL to random ladder games but I can tell that that doesn't seem to be the common view.
I dont get why Flash gg'ed.
I know this is beating a dead horse. The PSL streams are awesome, I'd love to watch them, but even when it's quiet the conflicting English and Korean commentary give me a headache after a few minutes. I'd watch the hell out of them if they were replays or a clean feed.
I think "dear" is Rich
Marines with stim would walk all over that build
Reaver.
1 nexus first = 1 chill
It feels wrong to have to accept that there is a strategy that not even FLASH can do anything about.
When will Blizzard release the balance patch? ^^
PSL audio sucks
Carrier as a unit just feels unfair. So tanky, so much damage, total chaos on your screen looks psychology intimidating.
fly anywhere, stack together
I think the big oversight by the devs was that Interceptors can stay outside the Carrier indefinitely so long as it is moving/attacking.
My experience against toss and carriers are from a terran exclusive experience, and my experience is as follows:
Carriers wouldn’t be so OP if:
1) the interceptors wouldn’t heal to full health when they ducked back into the carrier (seemingly, i never looked up the details, but fighting so many carriers over the years this is what it felt like)
2) interceptors swarming all over the screen made it extremely difficult to target the carriers directly.
3) attack move AI was improved so that goliaths would automatically attack the carriers directly instead of targeting interceptors like dummies
4) improving the ability for the terran player to execute lockdowns against carriers. On paper, you would think terrans should be invincible against carriers with “OP” units like the goliath and ghost, but the reality of trying to lockdown a carrier through an interceptor swarm is equivalent to pissing through a needle. Over 50% of the time, i *GUARANTEE* you, you will hit an interceptor instead of the carrier by mistake with lockdown. Because of the massive cost of lockdown, the resources and time it takes to invest in ghosts, and the time it takes for a ghost to reach max energy - you will probably already have 80% of your bases destroyed or your army decimated.
5) optical flare is a joke against Terran. The only thing i have ever seen successfully executing optical flare against an observer was AI. On paper, the terran go-to to destroy carriers would be ghosts to lockdown, goliaths to destroy the carriers, and optical flare on observers so the ghosts can be protected. Same problem with lockdown, trying to hit multiple tiny observers through a carrier group and interceptor swarm is a pipe dream.
Marine medic and tanks will crush that
Why so fast gg??
Couse Flash lost army and dont killed even single carrier. He fought against four, so he knowed that next two just poped in anytime and protoss get magical number of 6 carriers.
Flash would have won Sadge
where. are. the. wraiths. even like 6 would do enormous damage here and win terran the game if they are micro'd solid
you deer
start checking for the scan vision. you talk a lot over those scans that you never check for
cool beans
Let's be real Artosis..... Everyone in the SC scene has had a lot less respect for you since you came up with Crazy Zerg as a strategy name.
Flash needed floating buildings to absorb hits
if only people were not so terrified to build valkyries
valkyries do not deal splash damage to interceptors.
@@ArtosisCasts they actually do but in a unique way. so unlike goliaths/wraiths whose missles go dead if their target dies in flight. valkyrie missle splash hits a new target if the original dies. so while they may not aoe like normal they will not waste missles or get distracted by zealots like goliaths
@@wargumbyx Im glad im not the only one to realize that. Goliaths/wraiths waste missiles not only when a target goes dead, but they also overkill interceptors that stray too far from the Carrier and many of your units will acquire it as a target and waste shots, also when or if the interceptors go inside the Carrier to heal or if the Carrier stops attacking Turrets/Gols/Wraiths shots are wasted, but Valkyries halo rocekts ALWAYS hit something and while they do not deal splash dmg to interceptors, if a stray halo rocket hits an Interceptor close to the Carrier it WILL deal splash damage to the Carrier itself.
But in this game i dont think Flash had money to go Valks on 2 base, thats more of a 3 or 4 base thing. He either had to expand to a 3rd the moment he saw the Stargates building (which was pretty much as early as he could have possibly have seen them) or like Artosis said go for an even faster timing with only +1 or 1/1 at most, when there will be 2 Carriers on the field. But he chose the 7 fact timing and couldnt pull it off. GGs.
@@stambe8605 i think the cost is deferred by the fact that you stop making tanks to fight the zealots and make valkyries instead. mass tank into even small amounts of carriers is losing because they cant keep up with the battle and sieging in combat means the tanks are almost always losing
Protoss is op