hes not even right though the counter to proxy 2 gate is only 2 rax expand into standard game if youre a gigachad maybe an all-in, being the gamble that it is, requires an all-in in response sometimes, instead of just outplaying the other guy and transitioning into a normal game. what RT wants is for bluffing to not count when he actually had a good hand, which is dumb. "nooo i made 2 rax that means i get to heccin transition to midgame no matter what"
im curious how it would've played out of scan got a bunker up, especially since artie said early as the game was developing that he thought one would be coming. maybe near the assimilators it would've made a diff?
@@schwanimalIn order to hold that, not only do you need a bunker, but you also need to put a depo right in front of the Bunker to make the Zealot walk around.
@@schwanimal A blind wall off with racks, bunker behind it and engi-bay would be ''least micro intensive'' but it's not beneficial in any other way so it's rarely used.
"If anyone thinks I'm wrong at all, let me know in the comments and I'll delete the TH-cam channel, ok?" I guess if I ever show up and the channel's randomly gone, I know what happened haha.
What else would we play? SC1 was the pinnacle of RTS, SC2 and others are playable but its been all downhill since in my honest opinion. They really should find those old timers who created this and study their process if anyone hopes to surpass it, cause nothing has since.
@@ArtosisCasts why play an inferior version according to the pros? when it launched the Pros were completely against. I remember vividly as that was right before the last casters I knew of stopped uploading and I moved to watching Legendoftotalwar and others for Rimworld.
To the guy who figured out a counter but doesn't want the channel deleted: Thank you for your silence, you have my respect. Alternatively, theres just no counter.
I don't understand the fuss about 2-Gate Troy. If Terrans were smart, they would immediatly realize how easy is to deal with it: First you kill the assimilators with SCVs; I mean after dealing with so many gas steals, they should be pretty efficiet at it. Then, you rush Ghosts, they fit through. You go mass Scans, mass cloack, kill all observers and nuke the Cannons. Observers are small units, so Ghots with their concussive damage type are basically hard counters for Observers. They can also Lockdown Observers, in which case they cannot reveal Ghosts anymore. Plus, as a surprise move, you can nuke the two assimilators in the enemy's base. They won't see it coming with all the Observers in Lockdown/dead. No wonder stupid Terran has issues without these simple steps... On a serios note, absolutely bonkers series, love me a nice Ruin vs Scan on a sunny sunday.
Don't forget! Ghosts and Observers *_HAVE SAME UNIT COST!_* So all that energy keeps adding value! Toss Vessel with in emp with nukes all buildings die with single hit! can you ever lose?!?!?! This match was dope. every set was a gem, easily could have played in ASL.
Don't forget optical flare for observers. Totally worth it. Don't forget mass battle cruisers. Not like they lose to mass goon alone or anything and get stasised.
I wish ghost nuke rush was a serious option for terran in any matchup since every TvZ just comes down to "I'll move out just to force him to make some sunks and then become totally unkillable with lurkers / sunks under dark swarm", which outraces irradiate,, outfights bats, yet would theoretically would die to nukes if they actually worked. If.
@@goomshill It's technically possible in all matchups but pretty stupid in TvP because of observers and cannons evrywhere byt he time ghosts are ready.
Seems like Terran has to hold the gap between the assimilators. If Protoss can run zealots through, then the marines have to kite away into the main, which gives the Protoss space to kill the assimilators. Is there a zealot-tight configuration with barracks or depot or bunker against the assimilators? If so, you're done. Just hide behind your wall shooting zealots. If that doesn't exist, then you could still: - Build a non-tight wall at the gap so that zealots can only come through one at a time. Then plug that hole with an SCV and a couple more SCVs to heal it. - Or build a bunker at the assimilators so that your marines can't be bullied away. (You'll still have to split off some marines to fight zealots that go for your mineral line, though.) - Or jam an excessive number of SCVs into the gap (5+) to clog up the zealots. My intuition is that if you stabilize the early part of the rush (first 1-3 zealots) and keep the gap clogged without losing marines, then your marines' focused DPS will quickly outscale the zealots in the choke.
This is my idea too. If you can get enough time to float a factory out of the main to produce vultures the game is over. Vultures melt zealots and probes, send the first 2 to the protoss base and the rest will clean up the zealots. GG.
@dzstoyanov I don't think so. Pretty sure they're all in w the 2 gate. I'll have to go back and watch a couple but does protoss even make a forge. He had plenty of time in this game and no cannons so I guess not...
game 2 was so gooood, you hyped it so nerdly it was great :) ! love your enthusiasm for scan. You can really tell theyre both close in skill with how well they played. artosiscasts 5ever
Ya, rough that they're literally a world apart now =( Scan had the same salt on the inside as RT. Only difference is that he's better player, so he can smile at stupid shit he beats.
Hey guys nice to meet you. I haven't played forever but in the beginning of the first game when the zealot attacked the assimilator couldn't scan build a bunker between the assimilators do both protect and block the path? I am talking about 4:55 minute mark exactly
The duration of the video worried me, I wasn't prepared for it to be a 2 part thing and though Ruin was gonna clean my boy up with a bunch of zealot based rushes after that first game lol
@@Shield_Battery ok, I did that. Scan finished the 2nd barracks just before the zealot starts hitting the assimilator. How about bunker, then second barracks
@@Ziegfried82Lol, reminds me of that ASL season where Flash went random and Afreeca literally put outright bad maps for Terran in the map pool just to make him lose that specific season.
The game one dilemma is actually really interesting; I'd genuinely love to see pros practice trying to beat it and see if they can come up with a solution (i.e. T pro practices against a P pro for a few games, both knowing P will go proxy two gate every time). I was hoping we'd see more of this scenario during ASL for precisely that reason, but aside from one game (which P won ofc) I don't think any of the Protoss pros even went for proxy two gate. If Scan had to replay that game again, for example, I wonder what he'd do differently to increase his odds of winning.
Well, I'm glad that Artosis finally got closure on that Troy game. All of ASL the pros refused to take the free win, so it's nice for everyone (except Scan) to finally get to see what the hell he was on about.
Hey Artosis, do you think a bunker would work by the assimilators? I don't play Terran but can you wall off between them? I'd try that and maybe build the factory in the main and float it out. Even get sneaky and float it to the side and proxy vultures while scvs repair the bunker. Vultures are the best unit in the game against zealots and probes. Why not? Thanks as always!
I skimmed some of the comments-aside from variation of creating a wall and using a bunker to try and fend off the zealots, I'd be curious if there's some way to actually try and block the proxy gateways from going up in the first place. A bit of an out-of-the-box idea perhaps, but like, if you know 2gate proxy is sooooo strong, and you know it's probably going to be center, could 1-2 SCVs sent to the middle with good timing make it so that the probe can't put the gateways down without sending another probe or two to cover? And if they can't put the gateway down in any kind of timely fashion, even if the Terran's income is terrible, they *should* be able to at least avoid an immediate loss against the zealots, no? Obviously this would fail greatly if the probe decides to proxy off-center, and leave the Terran at a significant disadvantage from lost mining time if the Protoss just 2gates at home (which should still be pretty strong), but if your ONLY goal is to stop proxy 2gate, it's not like the entire center is buildable terrain, right? so I feel like it's theoretically possible to mess with the warping in of the buildings. and if you now force them to respect that option, then maybe Protoss decides to only do 2gate in base, and that extra X seconds helps the Terran defend normally with a 2rax, or something. Turning it from "unwinnable" to "maybe if you get lucky AND outplay them you have a 20% chance", haha. I dunno tho, not a Terran player or a StarCraft expert, but I think as a fan it can be fun to think about theoreticals even if they aren't/end up not actually practical-it might not be often, but I think a number of modern ideas probably started off as theoreticals, albeit backed by actual skill and a foundation of fundamental knowledge.
Could Terran wall either in front of or behind the assimilators to prevent the zealots from getting in or killing the assimilators? (I don’t play so I don’t actually know).
perhaps the only way to counter the proxy 2 gate is to build a bunker completely blocking the entrance between the assimilators b4 either of the assimilators are killed and then destroy the bunker as the game progresses?
That all comes down to timing. If it's a 2-Gate the bunker will be late and the zealots will just ignore the bunker unless if you full wall the ramp and this also drags your eco down since you're constantly producing marines for defense, instead of getting your Factories+add-on up sooner.
I only watch brood war and don't play at all, so I have absolutely no idea if it's an option, but to try and hold the Troy 2 gate, could you rush to make a bunker blocking the assimilators and mass repair against the zealots with 2 tax?
Ok, first off... AMAZING GAMES AND CAST!!! But I wanted to mention something, might sound dumb but oh well. I think it's super cool the other games are in a "next video". Because when I saw how long that video was I was like.. damn that's a 3-0 right? So anyway, keeps the suspense alive! :D
On Troy, can you build a bunker in the Assimilator gap to block it? So, skip the second Barracks, and repair your bunker from where the SCV can't be reached.
I mean you can block it but then you pay 100 minerals and scvs non mining time. Plus the zealots can still just right click the assimilator and expand + cannon and Terran is on 1 base
I’m unfamiliar with this map unfortunately, but does a barracks fit between the edge of the neutral assimilator and the ramp? If so, maybe that could be the wall? I assume it mustn’t or it would have been done, but is putting up a supply depot THAT detrimental? Otherwise, why is this map even allowed if it’s SOOO one-sided?
Concerning Game 1 early game for the love of God make a bunker. He had time when the first 3 zealots were in his base and zealots had to leave the main base entirely due to marines in the barracks sim city to make a bunker near the assimilators. If he had done that and kept 2 scv's nearby to repair, terran keeps both assimilators at his entrance, doesnt lose marines, covers his production facilities and continues marine production and can pop marines out of bunker if zealots run by to cover mineral line at main base if they attack scv's mineral line. Attack held. Exciting gameplay, joy to watch high level starcraft like this, Great casting, awesome replay.
the problem is where you're going to make the bunker, if you make it at natural zealot will just run by, if you make it inside they will all in and kill the assimilator and no amount of bunker can stop it, the bunker is only good at stopping the zealots from reaching your scv line, but all they have to do is destroying the assimilators and you'll lose eventually, once your main become an island the game is over, it's also 90% win for Protoss even with only one assimilator killed
You cant target with the marines in the bunker. In that case you just lose 2 potential marines and protoss only needs to have enough zealots to kill the assimilator while tanking the spread out damage. There was no way scan could have won, unless ruin fucks his game HARD (which wont happen to a player at his level). The objective of ruin was never attacking the actual base, but destroying the assimilators, that could only be prevented if you had the natural held (which is basically impossible with how fast the zealots came in) or you had a massive amount of marines, which was the idea behind what scan was doing.
Adding to @mottiengnhat8921 : cannot repair bunkers until they make. please count out the 19 seconds when a bunker can complete and scv can't just get bopped midbuild. but also, you're talking like this is some all in, and not a pressure build. So I'll entertain that thought a little, what's the response for a pylon placed at ramp beyond your bunker range for cannon/shield batteries? or for softer transition, how are you going to stop ranged goons? reality is, protoss only needs to kill 1 assimilator to stop terran mech from passing through. There's no way to stop them when you get 1st scout, proxygated. Just 1st zealot brought the assim down to 1/4 hp before coming back with 3 then slipping inside to begin harass. even if he just used only those three zealots, the assim is dead if he just dived on it ignoring the bunker. 5 marines can't kill fast enough, become even worse if you load in bunker and they split targeting.
I genuinely wonder if you scout it early could you not pull the boys to kill the pylon similar to sc2? Or do you just not start enough workers for this to be viable?
They should add a blatantly terran favored map as well. The naturals should be fully wallable with just depot + barracks, and the 3rd/4rd/5th bases should have a tiny choke as their entrance, but the bases themselves should be in range of siege tanks positioned outside the chokepoint. Add lots of space for turrets in the minerals lines, and maybe a few neutral missile turrets to stave off mutas and shuttles in the early game, while terran is short on anti-air.
Build the 2 rax tight to the assimilators, to what hopefully makes a wall that still lets your marines hit the zealots attacking the assimilators. You might try different combinations of buildings (2 rax, the depot, maybe a bunker but actually probably not necessary in this case unless the extra range was needed. Don't bother trying to get out until you have siege or go wraiths and tickle those zealots to death. If you wanted to get sneaky, run an scv into a second main first thing and hide it there, and expand into a second main with the same type of wall. Don't bother taking a natural until you have siege.
@@karpai5427 I'm not entirely sure about that map cuz I have it banned, and I've never seen 2 assimilators like that with a wall, but I'm pretty sure a Zealot can still get through, but even if it blocks zealot can still fit through 2 barracks and still just kill the assimilator.
Zealots can’t get through a barracks next to another barracks. They can if the barracks are vertical. You simply need a bunker in the natural. You basically have to rush it. Otherwise they can use a cannon to take out the assimilators after using the zealots to keep the marines back. Finding a way to wall with a barracks and a bunker while leaving holes that only rines can go through would make it possible i think.
@@Dziaji Bro I don't mean to be "That guy" But you're wrong. Zealots can get through 2 barracks. Both ways. Vertical 2 barracks or horizontal 2 barracks. Maybe you're thinking of a supply depot and barracks, but it's only when the depot is on the right. It's pretty hard unless you play the game a lot. I only know because I play Protoss so I know where I can fit through.
I'm rooting for Ruin, but in that second game Scan dominated. Masterful play, great build. Thanks for the cast, Artosis! So excited for this round of 8!!
@@c3n0dr33v Well he saw the Robo building built with the Scouting SCV, but Toss could still build Citadel and go DT, or cancel Robo for DT by the time the push comes.
in the first game , why if one of assimilators is destroyed and then factory unit can't get out? I'm newbie here. I don't get it why he focused on attacking a assimilator.
Yep factory units can't get out if one of those die. It's why the map is downright bad at least for competitive pro matches. As a goofy fun map it's fine I suppose, like an island map.
8:50 how about a bunker right below the 2 gaz at the choke of the main to protect the gas AND defend the zealot rush Additionnally, this 2 gas choke is very tight and building the 2 racks closer to that choke might have helped at micro management to block the zealots
I was thinking the same thing. 1 rax gas 2nd depot and bunker. But then the zealots just walk by lol. You would lose scvs or just lose the Assimilator for the zealots but then you're on 1 base but you would get a vulture out eventually so you don't just die.
If terran killed assimilators, this move would have blocked 2 gateway push, right? And since his structures can fly, factories could be redeployed to expansion later, which solves logistical issues.
Hey dude, I'm nowhere near pro level, but I tested, and you can do a pretty nice wall with a barracks and depot behind the troy assimilators. It's 1 scv or marine tight, looks to be about the only way to defend against the proxy gateway zealots. No real cost other than placing the depot up there, rax can lift after.
way to counter 2 gate harder is to go for a cheese build yourself, notice when the pylon and gates are going up, and then prep sim city then this cheese demands more cheese also such a borked map shouldn't be in the pool IMO
Academy bio crushes mass zealots, but you won't have academy in time to save the assimilator. You can lose one assimilator and still play bio against the Protoss, but Protoss can cannon their own natural and now you have to scale into the midgame with a bio build against a two-base Protoss. To go back into mech, you'd have to build factories out in the middle of the map or at another main... There might be a viable gameplan in there somewhere, but if there is, it's very different from the mech TvP that Terran uses on every other map. It's not really worth it for pros to explore a completely new style for one map that's just gonna be cycled out of the pool.
@@ethansterling4317That's only considering if P will just keep mass zealots. Obviously not, they'll tech into Robo and go for speed Shuttle+Reaver play which kills your bio play stone cold dead. Now your bio play is hard-countered and you'll be severely behind when transitioning into mech, you might as well call gg by that point.
Could you fit a bunker to the left of the top assimilator asap? It would be a waste if they not doing the 2gate but can cancel it or get rid later, Scan was pretty close if only the assim had more health. Broken map for sure though lol
With how good pros are at sniping mines in predictable locations, I wonder if its good to just gamble by laying 2 mines close together on a weird rally spot to make the snipe difficult
You can stop 2 gate proxi.The only way is to have 3-4 scvs right away before first zealot comes to wall off the exit with marines behind those scvs.Even with 2 rax he proved how its impossible to push back the zealots with marines alone.
What about wall off the two assimilators, maybe put one of the barracks there if marines spawn on the bottom side, or else a depot or bunker, and then destroy it later when you want to get out
I don't think you're wrong about it being broken, but I think more scvs must be pulled and try to get a bunker up, but none the less if you have to all in a defensive manner vs such a simple build to execute it is too strong
![Clem vs herO (TvP) - WardiTV Mondays 9 [StarCraft 2]](/img/n.gif)
Arty is so humble when he is right.
hes not even right though
the counter to proxy 2 gate is only 2 rax expand into standard game if youre a gigachad
maybe an all-in, being the gamble that it is, requires an all-in in response sometimes, instead of just outplaying the other guy and transitioning into a normal game.
what RT wants is for bluffing to not count when he actually had a good hand, which is dumb.
"nooo i made 2 rax that means i get to heccin transition to midgame no matter what"
I love how in game 1 it's not even scan's choice in how he wants to lose, it's how ruin wants to win.
im curious how it would've played out of scan got a bunker up, especially since artie said early as the game was developing that he thought one would be coming. maybe near the assimilators it would've made a diff?
@michaelschwan5243 if that supply depot micro didn't work I'm not sure even a bunker woulda saved him map just fucked 😂😂
@@schwanimalIn order to hold that, not only do you need a bunker, but you also need to put a depo right in front of the Bunker to make the Zealot walk around.
@@schwanimal
A blind wall off with racks, bunker behind it and engi-bay would be ''least micro intensive'' but it's not beneficial in any other way so it's rarely used.
For one he could choose whether to leave a 'gg' or stay salty.
"If anyone thinks I'm wrong at all, let me know in the comments and I'll delete the TH-cam channel, ok?"
I guess if I ever show up and the channel's randomly gone, I know what happened haha.
ROFL
Discovered this channel today and seeing SC1 is still played makes me so happy! Is this the remastered one?
Yes, everyone plays remastered. Welcome!
Welcome :D
What else would we play? SC1 was the pinnacle of RTS, SC2 and others are playable but its been all downhill since in my honest opinion. They really should find those old timers who created this and study their process if anyone hopes to surpass it, cause nothing has since.
@@ArtosisCasts This is very sweet
you do us all a service o7
@@ArtosisCasts why play an inferior version according to the pros? when it launched the Pros were completely against. I remember vividly as that was right before the last casters I knew of stopped uploading and I moved to watching Legendoftotalwar and others for Rimworld.
Two gate on troy makes me physically ill.
To the guy who figured out a counter but doesn't want the channel deleted: Thank you for your silence, you have my respect.
Alternatively, theres just no counter.
Ya there is: nukes.
18:32 I can replay this moment forever. Second game is what justice looks like.
- The cannons be ready to fire capn'!
- Are...
Cap'n (the apostrophe replaces the first missing letter in the word or contraction).
is it supposed to be are because of pirate?@@BenjaminGlatt
@@bergensee6085 yeah, probably. But, you see, I was too stupid to get the joke.
@@BenjaminGlattcapn’t
What a beautiful move from Scan, a real piece of art
I don't understand the fuss about 2-Gate Troy. If Terrans were smart, they would immediatly realize how easy is to deal with it:
First you kill the assimilators with SCVs; I mean after dealing with so many gas steals, they should be pretty efficiet at it.
Then, you rush Ghosts, they fit through. You go mass Scans, mass cloack, kill all observers and nuke the Cannons. Observers are small units, so Ghots with their concussive damage type are basically hard counters for Observers. They can also Lockdown Observers, in which case they cannot reveal Ghosts anymore. Plus, as a surprise move, you can nuke the two assimilators in the enemy's base. They won't see it coming with all the Observers in Lockdown/dead.
No wonder stupid Terran has issues without these simple steps...
On a serios note, absolutely bonkers series, love me a nice Ruin vs Scan on a sunny sunday.
Don't forget! Ghosts and Observers *_HAVE SAME UNIT COST!_* So all that energy keeps adding value! Toss Vessel with in emp with nukes all buildings die with single hit! can you ever lose?!?!?!
This match was dope. every set was a gem, easily could have played in ASL.
Great strategy but if I could suggest a cherry in the form of an optical flare
Don't forget optical flare for observers. Totally worth it. Don't forget mass battle cruisers. Not like they lose to mass goon alone or anything and get stasised.
I wish ghost nuke rush was a serious option for terran in any matchup since every TvZ just comes down to "I'll move out just to force him to make some sunks and then become totally unkillable with lurkers / sunks under dark swarm", which outraces irradiate,, outfights bats, yet would theoretically would die to nukes if they actually worked. If.
@@goomshill It's technically possible in all matchups but pretty stupid in TvP because of observers and cannons evrywhere byt he time ghosts are ready.
Ruin vs Scan !! I havent watched the video yet but seems promising
"The pros are stupid." - Artosis
Can't even come to the cast channel without insults now.
Seems like Terran has to hold the gap between the assimilators. If Protoss can run zealots through, then the marines have to kite away into the main, which gives the Protoss space to kill the assimilators. Is there a zealot-tight configuration with barracks or depot or bunker against the assimilators? If so, you're done. Just hide behind your wall shooting zealots.
If that doesn't exist, then you could still:
- Build a non-tight wall at the gap so that zealots can only come through one at a time. Then plug that hole with an SCV and a couple more SCVs to heal it.
- Or build a bunker at the assimilators so that your marines can't be bullied away. (You'll still have to split off some marines to fight zealots that go for your mineral line, though.)
- Or jam an excessive number of SCVs into the gap (5+) to clog up the zealots.
My intuition is that if you stabilize the early part of the rush (first 1-3 zealots) and keep the gap clogged without losing marines, then your marines' focused DPS will quickly outscale the zealots in the choke.
Nerd
This is my idea too. If you can get enough time to float a factory out of the main to produce vultures the game is over. Vultures melt zealots and probes, send the first 2 to the protoss base and the rest will clean up the zealots. GG.
@@ericjepson3765by the time you can build and float a factory out, toss will have cannons in their main and natural
@dzstoyanov I don't think so. Pretty sure they're all in w the 2 gate. I'll have to go back and watch a couple but does protoss even make a forge. He had plenty of time in this game and no cannons so I guess not...
@@ericjepson3765 of course he makes a forge. 7:39
the obvious counter for 2 gate is going into the editor and changing zealots cost to 150 :D
game 2 was so gooood, you hyped it so nerdly it was great :) ! love your enthusiasm for scan. You can really tell theyre both close in skill with how well they played. artosiscasts 5ever
Can you build a bunker right below the Assimilator on Troy?
Is that good?
This might be your greatest title yet.
Man, I would love to see you and scan hang out again to play some sc1. Those collab videos you did with him was hilarious.
Ya, rough that they're literally a world apart now =(
Scan had the same salt on the inside as RT. Only difference is that he's better player, so he can smile at stupid shit he beats.
Hey guys nice to meet you. I haven't played forever but in the beginning of the first game when the zealot attacked the assimilator couldn't scan build a bunker between the assimilators do both protect and block the path? I am talking about 4:55 minute mark exactly
0:00 twins?? down the same haircut, pose, style of glasses
I think it is the same guy
The duration of the video worried me, I wasn't prepared for it to be a 2 part thing and though Ruin was gonna clean my boy up with a bunch of zealot based rushes after that first game lol
15:03 RT making his own dono noises
10:30
oh, so it's a massively terran-favored map
thanks
What about making the bunker near the assimilator? Wouldn't it defend the assimilators and block zealots from coming in?
mmmm you should watch video and figure out when exactly that bunker could safely make, then tell us again about this idea.
@@Shield_Battery ok, I did that. Scan finished the 2nd barracks just before the zealot starts hitting the assimilator. How about bunker, then second barracks
Instead of the 2nd barracks
Artosis so happy that someone finally two gated on that map.
And yes he is right.
“There’s something very funny about pirates.” - Artosis
More like "Argggh"tosis
HAr_RTosis
13:04 I have never seen a vulture move like this. Smooth.
hi artosis thanks so much for the cnsl casts love them so far, is there a good place to watch the recent asl games in english?
Artosis has very clearly chosen a side but I don't think he is wrong either.
@@HallsteinI I mean with regards to Troy
@@lukebomber he's dead on about that map, it's awful. Certainly in the running for one of the worst maps in the past what, decade?
@@Ziegfried82Lol, reminds me of that ASL season where Flash went random and Afreeca literally put outright bad maps for Terran in the map pool just to make him lose that specific season.
The game one dilemma is actually really interesting; I'd genuinely love to see pros practice trying to beat it and see if they can come up with a solution (i.e. T pro practices against a P pro for a few games, both knowing P will go proxy two gate every time). I was hoping we'd see more of this scenario during ASL for precisely that reason, but aside from one game (which P won ofc) I don't think any of the Protoss pros even went for proxy two gate. If Scan had to replay that game again, for example, I wonder what he'd do differently to increase his odds of winning.
On the bottom positions, is there a possibility to build a barracks on top of the, in this case, leftmost assimilator? Does the marine spawn between?
I'm no pro.. but in game 1
What would you be able to pull a CVS and get a bunker up into the natural?
Then produce factory units out of the natural?
Well, I'm glad that Artosis finally got closure on that Troy game. All of ASL the pros refused to take the free win, so it's nice for everyone (except Scan) to finally get to see what the hell he was on about.
Hey Artosis, do you think a bunker would work by the assimilators? I don't play Terran but can you wall off between them?
I'd try that and maybe build the factory in the main and float it out. Even get sneaky and float it to the side and proxy vultures while scvs repair the bunker. Vultures are the best unit in the game against zealots and probes.
Why not?
Thanks as always!
20:30. two vollies from 4 goliaths kills a shuttle you silly goose.
I skimmed some of the comments-aside from variation of creating a wall and using a bunker to try and fend off the zealots, I'd be curious if there's some way to actually try and block the proxy gateways from going up in the first place.
A bit of an out-of-the-box idea perhaps, but like, if you know 2gate proxy is sooooo strong, and you know it's probably going to be center, could 1-2 SCVs sent to the middle with good timing make it so that the probe can't put the gateways down without sending another probe or two to cover? And if they can't put the gateway down in any kind of timely fashion, even if the Terran's income is terrible, they *should* be able to at least avoid an immediate loss against the zealots, no?
Obviously this would fail greatly if the probe decides to proxy off-center, and leave the Terran at a significant disadvantage from lost mining time if the Protoss just 2gates at home (which should still be pretty strong), but if your ONLY goal is to stop proxy 2gate, it's not like the entire center is buildable terrain, right? so I feel like it's theoretically possible to mess with the warping in of the buildings. and if you now force them to respect that option, then maybe Protoss decides to only do 2gate in base, and that extra X seconds helps the Terran defend normally with a 2rax, or something. Turning it from "unwinnable" to "maybe if you get lucky AND outplay them you have a 20% chance", haha.
I dunno tho, not a Terran player or a StarCraft expert, but I think as a fan it can be fun to think about theoreticals even if they aren't/end up not actually practical-it might not be often, but I think a number of modern ideas probably started off as theoreticals, albeit backed by actual skill and a foundation of fundamental knowledge.
2:29
YOU KNOW HIM! YOU LOVE HIM !
THUNDERDOME !!!!!
Damn what an amazing round of 8. And that’s not saying that the round of 16 wasn’t stellar as well. This is way more entertaining than ASL so far! 🔥
Could Terran wall either in front of or behind the assimilators to prevent the zealots from getting in or killing the assimilators? (I don’t play so I don’t actually know).
perhaps the only way to counter the proxy 2 gate is to build a bunker completely blocking the entrance between the assimilators b4 either of the assimilators are killed and then destroy the bunker as the game progresses?
That all comes down to timing. If it's a 2-Gate the bunker will be late and the zealots will just ignore the bunker unless if you full wall the ramp and this also drags your eco down since you're constantly producing marines for defense, instead of getting your Factories+add-on up sooner.
I only watch brood war and don't play at all, so I have absolutely no idea if it's an option, but to try and hold the Troy 2 gate, could you rush to make a bunker blocking the assimilators and mass repair against the zealots with 2 tax?
Ok, first off... AMAZING GAMES AND CAST!!! But I wanted to mention something, might sound dumb but oh well. I think it's super cool the other games are in a "next video". Because when I saw how long that video was I was like.. damn that's a 3-0 right? So anyway, keeps the suspense alive! :D
On Troy, can you build a bunker in the Assimilator gap to block it? So, skip the second Barracks, and repair your bunker from where the SCV can't be reached.
I mean you can block it but then you pay 100 minerals and scvs non mining time. Plus the zealots can still just right click the assimilator and expand + cannon and Terran is on 1 base
I’m unfamiliar with this map unfortunately, but does a barracks fit between the edge of the neutral assimilator and the ramp? If so, maybe that could be the wall? I assume it mustn’t or it would have been done, but is putting up a supply depot THAT detrimental?
Otherwise, why is this map even allowed if it’s SOOO one-sided?
Concerning Game 1 early game for the love of God make a bunker. He had time when the first 3 zealots were in his base and zealots had to leave the main base entirely due to marines in the barracks sim city to make a bunker near the assimilators. If he had done that and kept 2 scv's nearby to repair, terran keeps both assimilators at his entrance, doesnt lose marines, covers his production facilities and continues marine production and can pop marines out of bunker if zealots run by to cover mineral line at main base if they attack scv's mineral line. Attack held.
Exciting gameplay, joy to watch high level starcraft like this, Great casting, awesome replay.
the problem is where you're going to make the bunker, if you make it at natural zealot will just run by, if you make it inside they will all in and kill the assimilator and no amount of bunker can stop it, the bunker is only good at stopping the zealots from reaching your scv line, but all they have to do is destroying the assimilators and you'll lose eventually, once your main become an island the game is over, it's also 90% win for Protoss even with only one assimilator killed
You cant target with the marines in the bunker. In that case you just lose 2 potential marines and protoss only needs to have enough zealots to kill the assimilator while tanking the spread out damage. There was no way scan could have won, unless ruin fucks his game HARD (which wont happen to a player at his level).
The objective of ruin was never attacking the actual base, but destroying the assimilators, that could only be prevented if you had the natural held (which is basically impossible with how fast the zealots came in) or you had a massive amount of marines, which was the idea behind what scan was doing.
Adding to @mottiengnhat8921 : cannot repair bunkers until they make. please count out the 19 seconds when a bunker can complete and scv can't just get bopped midbuild. but also, you're talking like this is some all in, and not a pressure build. So I'll entertain that thought a little, what's the response for a pylon placed at ramp beyond your bunker range for cannon/shield batteries? or for softer transition, how are you going to stop ranged goons? reality is, protoss only needs to kill 1 assimilator to stop terran mech from passing through. There's no way to stop them when you get 1st scout, proxygated. Just 1st zealot brought the assim down to 1/4 hp before coming back with 3 then slipping inside to begin harass. even if he just used only those three zealots, the assim is dead if he just dived on it ignoring the bunker. 5 marines can't kill fast enough, become even worse if you load in bunker and they split targeting.
Would maybe building your simcity rax in front if the assimilator to partially building block off those work? Doubting, but...
I genuinely wonder if you scout it early could you not pull the boys to kill the pylon similar to sc2? Or do you just not start enough workers for this to be viable?
No, they would have to run too far, and Protoss can just make another one
They should add a blatantly terran favored map as well. The naturals should be fully wallable with just depot + barracks, and the 3rd/4rd/5th bases should have a tiny choke as their entrance, but the bases themselves should be in range of siege tanks positioned outside the chokepoint. Add lots of space for turrets in the minerals lines, and maybe a few neutral missile turrets to stave off mutas and shuttles in the early game, while terran is short on anti-air.
lmao i love the spicy silly artosis in this vid
Amazing micro at 18:07 i cant believe he got out of that spot. Wp both players great games
Legit question here, bunk between assimilators walling off the zealots can help?
Build the 2 rax tight to the assimilators, to what hopefully makes a wall that still lets your marines hit the zealots attacking the assimilators. You might try different combinations of buildings (2 rax, the depot, maybe a bunker but actually probably not necessary in this case unless the extra range was needed. Don't bother trying to get out until you have siege or go wraiths and tickle those zealots to death.
If you wanted to get sneaky, run an scv into a second main first thing and hide it there, and expand into a second main with the same type of wall. Don't bother taking a natural until you have siege.
That wouldn't make a difference. The zealots would still just right click the assimilator at that point plus 2 raxes aren't a wall.
@@alexfriedman2152 Barracks next to Assimilator don't make a wall?
@@karpai5427 I'm not entirely sure about that map cuz I have it banned, and I've never seen 2 assimilators like that with a wall, but I'm pretty sure a Zealot can still get through, but even if it blocks zealot can still fit through 2 barracks and still just kill the assimilator.
Zealots can’t get through a barracks next to another barracks. They can if the barracks are vertical.
You simply need a bunker in the natural. You basically have to rush it. Otherwise they can use a cannon to take out the assimilators after using the zealots to keep the marines back. Finding a way to wall with a barracks and a bunker while leaving holes that only rines can go through would make it possible i think.
@@Dziaji Bro I don't mean to be "That guy" But you're wrong. Zealots can get through 2 barracks. Both ways. Vertical 2 barracks or horizontal 2 barracks. Maybe you're thinking of a supply depot and barracks, but it's only when the depot is on the right. It's pretty hard unless you play the game a lot. I only know because I play Protoss so I know where I can fit through.
You counter harder by building a bunker behind the inner assimilator. Trust me, I completed the campaign.
Arty not challenging your Troy take. Just curious what your take on ASL is on Troy, and why more Toss didn’t go 2 gate zealot?
Awesome cast Arty!!
8:43 bunker near the assimilator?
My first thought as well
I'm rooting for Ruin, but in that second game Scan dominated. Masterful play, great build. Thanks for the cast, Artosis! So excited for this round of 8!!
He totally cut corners though. If it was any kind of DT build he would instantly die. 3rd Fact and armory before any detection.
He must have seen the obs, so it can't be a quick DT build
@@c3n0dr33v Well he saw the Robo building built with the Scouting SCV, but Toss could still build Citadel and go DT, or cancel Robo for DT by the time the push comes.
I like how Scan advances in the second push a bit slower and takes 3-d and 4-th behind the attack
idk... try a bunker?
in the first game , why if one of assimilators is destroyed and then factory unit can't get out? I'm newbie here. I don't get it why he focused on attacking a assimilator.
Yep factory units can't get out if one of those die. It's why the map is downright bad at least for competitive pro matches. As a goofy fun map it's fine I suppose, like an island map.
couldn't you bunker the assimilator area and then go vult?
Thank you for the game.
Can you build a moot refinery on that gas? The one affecting game no.1
Couldn't scan just block the hole between gasses with a bunker forcing zealots to single file to their death while repairing?
Yeah but technically he could still just right click the assimilator before the zealots die. Then he makes a cannon at home and wins
Why no bunker next to the Assimilators though?
the picture of scan and ruin makes it look like they're twins lol
could you theoretically go blind 8 racks on Troy into a fast factory to try and kill the protoss gas as a counter?
8:50 how about a bunker right below the 2 gaz at the choke of the main to protect the gas AND defend the zealot rush
Additionnally, this 2 gas choke is very tight and building the 2 racks closer to that choke might have helped at micro management to block the zealots
I was thinking the same thing. 1 rax gas 2nd depot and bunker. But then the zealots just walk by lol. You would lose scvs or just lose the Assimilator for the zealots but then you're on 1 base but you would get a vulture out eventually so you don't just die.
If Terran sacs extractors to nullify zealot pressure and tries to expand are they behind still?
where do you build factories now that you cannot use main?
I mean what are you gonna do? Go wraiths against protoss?! It takes way too much APM to dropship everything out while your opponent is just rallying.
Yeah, no. Then you're 1 base vs 2 base. Speed shuttles own dropships. The Toss would own
If terran killed assimilators, this move would have blocked 2 gateway push, right? And since his structures can fly, factories could be redeployed to expansion later, which solves logistical issues.
Wow, you're so smart
Hey dude, I'm nowhere near pro level, but I tested, and you can do a pretty nice wall with a barracks and depot behind the troy assimilators. It's 1 scv or marine tight, looks to be about the only way to defend against the proxy gateway zealots. No real cost other than placing the depot up there, rax can lift after.
Ruin looks like Scan from a parallel universe where he picks Protoss and parts his hair the other way lol
I know this comment is just pretty based and not much more to it, but I really like watching Scan's games.
Gonna need a few rounds of chemo after that first game
can terran build refineries on those geysers to open up the door again?
I've heard arty say nothing can be built on the geysers.
Nope, it's just bad map design when all is said and done.
Artosis is so salty over losing to Protoss that his salt has overflow to the cast channel
Two barracks on the natural covering the assimilators. It pretty much what terran do all times anyway. That counters two proxy gate.
way to counter 2 gate harder is to go for a cheese build yourself, notice when the pylon and gates are going up, and then prep sim city then
this cheese demands more cheese
also such a borked map shouldn't be in the pool IMO
Yeah it's so bad it may as well be an island map. It is the kind of thing I expect for goofing around not competition.
That screenshot is tight
Any chance to counter zealot rush in game 1 with firebats?
No
Academy bio crushes mass zealots, but you won't have academy in time to save the assimilator. You can lose one assimilator and still play bio against the Protoss, but Protoss can cannon their own natural and now you have to scale into the midgame with a bio build against a two-base Protoss. To go back into mech, you'd have to build factories out in the middle of the map or at another main...
There might be a viable gameplan in there somewhere, but if there is, it's very different from the mech TvP that Terran uses on every other map. It's not really worth it for pros to explore a completely new style for one map that's just gonna be cycled out of the pool.
@@ethansterling4317That's only considering if P will just keep mass zealots. Obviously not, they'll tech into Robo and go for speed Shuttle+Reaver play which kills your bio play stone cold dead. Now your bio play is hard-countered and you'll be severely behind when transitioning into mech, you might as well call gg by that point.
maybe 8 rax into additional one?
would a combination of firebats and medics with optic flare work against the zealot rush?
Is there a meme I'm missing haha
Was there no “veto”? Why couldn’t Scan veto the map in game one?
Could you fit a bunker to the left of the top assimilator asap? It would be a waste if they not doing the 2gate but can cancel it or get rid later, Scan was pretty close if only the assim had more health. Broken map for sure though lol
Could Scan have made a bunker behind the assimilator in game 1?
Gotta get a bunker down somewhere
Allot of valid points being made.. Artosis knows how to get the comments rollin Lol.
With how good pros are at sniping mines in predictable locations, I wonder if its good to just gamble by laying 2 mines close together on a weird rally spot to make the snipe difficult
You can stop 2 gate proxi.The only way is to have 3-4 scvs right away before first zealot comes to wall off the exit with marines behind those scvs.Even with 2 rax he proved how its impossible to push back the zealots with marines alone.
looking forward to whatever that thumbnail is a reference to lmao
Thank You Troy, Very Cool!
Obviously it is refrence to tosis rage and hatred.
Apparently it has grown so high that it overflows into cast channel.
@@amai2307 Rage didn't make!
How do you counter harder? You lift off and fly all your buildings to each corner of the map and tilt your opponent to win next game.
How about build a bunker before second barracks? stops the zealots from getting in and prevents them from blowing up assimilators
a tale as old as time, the protoss wins with a broken cheese but can't keep up with a real game, fantastic play from scan
What about wall off the two assimilators, maybe put one of the barracks there if marines spawn on the bottom side, or else a depot or bunker, and then destroy it later when you want to get out
I don't think you're wrong about it being broken, but I think more scvs must be pulled and try to get a bunker up, but none the less if you have to all in a defensive manner vs such a simple build to execute it is too strong
personally I would've fended off that rush by building ghosts and locking down the zealots, idk why scan didn't think of that
PROOOOOOOTOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSSSSSS
ROFL 🤣 when artosy said he gunna delete the youtube channel i died
It's very easy countered: power overwhelming!