Mario 64 Speedrunning’s Weirdest Tradition
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 ธ.ค. 2022
- Super Mario 64 speedrunning has some interesting history and tradition. Speedrunners usually want to go as fast as possible, but why are we playing on the slowest version of the game? Let’s find out!
Shoutouts to @Drogie for his video! A lot of information came from this video, and if you're interested in hearing even deeper details about the differences between the versions of the game, check it out here ► • Why the SM64 Community...
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Edited by aria
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Super Mario 64’s weirdest tradition is playing on Nintendo 64. Mario 64 is able to be played on video game consoles such as Mario 64 DS, Mario 64 Wii, and Mario 64 Nintendo 64. However, top Mario 64 speedrunners, such as cheese, clint stevens, ludwig, Weegee, and GreenSuigi play on Nintendo 64, despite it being slow! Today we are uncovered the history behind Super Mario 64 World Record Speedruns. Enjoy the story and drama behind why mario 64 speedruns play on super mario 64’s slowest version.
#speedrun #mario #nintendo - บันเทิง
a lot of you mofos are pointing out that there is also a nintendo switch online version of the game which doesn't have BLJs patched.
you are correct. I made an oopsie. anyways thanks for watchin
mofo? missing of fear out?
weed
Mmmmmmm dadddyyyy breeeeed meeeee
Pc port?
simply, can you recommend to me a speedrunner who uses a program to track their presses on a straight line (similar to a piece of sheet music) on their controller?
Have runners actually compared running on mono vs running on stereo sound mode? I think mono might save a few frames
it does and we do
It might save half a microsecond. 😉
Why would the runners do the comparison when there's someone who knows the code inside and out 👀
@@s_bt_iwtf The code doesn't explicitly say stuff like "In the average run on the fastest 120 star route, here's how much lag there will be on Mono vs. on Stereo". You'd have to know a whole lot more than just the code in order to tell
@@iwersonsch5131 I think the joke is that Kaze (the original commentor) is someone who knows the game in and out and probably already knows the answer
damn what a king siglemic was, intentionally playing on the slower version of the game so japanese players didn't feel like they were being cheated. legend.
BasedUrnGod
Black shirt Simply and White shirt Simply look years apart
Like Gandalf the Gray vs White
Mans going through dimensions
I can be your angle or yuor dvil
Simple enough.
Don't get me started on no shirt simply
It's harder (lag), but also easier! N64 control stick mapping is so much better. I know that was mentioned, but I feel like this is genuinely part of why N64 is still truly the standard, more than just tradition/history with jp runners.
true. it feels so right
I feel like playing an N64 game on the N64 is probably NOT the weirdest tradition in all of speed running.
I'm hoarding n64 controllers to scalp later when the speed runners start running out of supply 😎
Oh yeah, didn't Wii VC N64 emu set the dead zone like the size of the Great Lakes?
Meaning precision control is far more fiddly than the game intended?
@@BlissBatch I think it's one of the King Quest games, where you have to sing the ending song for the run to count, that might be in the running for weirdest
Very good points made throughout the video however as a VC runner I’m obligated to say it
COPIUM
Based odme as always
Based odme
What good points? The only thing I took away from this is that it's a matter of pride.
OMEGALUL DME
DIESOFCRINGE
I think it's important to clarify that there's two different versions of sm64 on Switch: 3d all stars and nintendo switch online. 3d all stars runs the shindou version, so bljs are patched and there's rumble support, as well as some updated textures, while the nintendo switch online version is just the standard english game (bljs are still in, it's the exact same game as an english n64 cart).
I was thinking about that
Yep, I was just about to say that as well. Thank goodness too because something feels very off about the Shindou version and I’m glad it wasn’t the standard in the online version!
NSO also offers the PAL version if you allow EU Versions in the settings.
Though unless you're a casual player who only speaks French or German, there's not much point.
I think the All-Stars version is great. It ain’t broken, so are people just that particular about the Shindou changes?
@@2yoyoyo1Unplugged they're lizard brain
9:01 when I first “came” into Mario, it was kinda toxic
-Simply 2022
Suggestion: Next video should be about PAL speedrunning of Mario 64 mainly (or exclusively). It's interesting in that it's underplayed, yet many of the same strategies can be used. New WRs in PAL (especially 120 Star) save several minutes (rather than a few seconds) and are very strategically different compared to the previous ones. It's generally been an easy and free place for an experienced runner to get a WR, provided you can get it to work and tolerate playing it. It would be interesting to see the leaps in evolution from PAL run to PAL run in each category, compared to the increments in NTSC-J.
what you mean, you can play without gamebreaking bugs that skip 99.9% of the content ? blasphemy !
Just been binging your old content. I miss the informative SM64 stuff from you like the framewalk video, SSL Reds, Cannonless. SM64 content on YT has been going through a drought, I guess it really couldn't get much better than Every cart is personalized, WARIO, HMC septic system and all the other fun theories, but I'm glad to see you still pump out the classic content. Peace Simply
I don’t know who will fill the shoes for that kind of thing. Content has “evolved” to a much higher level, with content creators thinking certain content is below them
When I went to AGDQ 2016 me and some Goldeneye guys raced SM64 PAL version. God it was a nightmare 😂It was the event I got to meet you guys for a little bit too, good times!
Respect to your editor for being proud as one the three people left who own a Wii U, the other two people being me and Scott The Woz
We're four.
I'm the fifth
sixth, it is a lovely system.
Seven
Eight ✋
This is something that makes less and less sense with time though. With the hardware becoming scarcer every year for new runners - the JP hardware especially - it does create a strange wealth barrier to entry, not unlike the streaming requirements a lot of leaderboards have now
emulators are getting super accurate nowadays, so probably when the japanese n64s run out people will just start using those
the speedrunning community needs to get away from "real life timing" all together...when i see things like "version 1.2 has 15s less loading screens" i cringe....no competition makes sense when the players are allowed to use tech that gains flat time. Its easy to remove loading screens from your time, that should be done in all games.
This also applies to "runs faster/slower" games as in this video...maybe harder to standardize, but atleast sorting the categories by hardware+software is obvious...
Simply you are looking great. Seriously. You have actually gone from 'goblin mode' to 'attractive man'. Keep it up, we love you ❤️
Yo thanks for bringing this to the public attention, great video as always ✌🏼🔥
is this a copypasta?? i keep seeing it in all the youtube videos i watch LMAO
Except England is not in the USA and England has PAL.
@@kam4ran I feel like it's just a common way people who don't actually speak much English say "nice video"
@@ziggle5000 my youtube was bugged out and it was showing a bunch of comments as something else so i was confused lol
I believe alexsm64/alextolio also had 70 star "wr" for a while on VC. 49:08 vs sig's 49:09. He got so much crap on a daily basis for running VC, its kinda sad, especially when you consider I think he was something like 13-15 years old at the time.
I think L-canceling in melee is just a form of gatekeeping for newer players. If you consistently L-Cancel, there's no actual competitive advantage over other people who also consistently L-Cancel.
It's less of a competitive skill and more of a restriction that just raises the skill floor to try to get in to the game. Like, it's not so much of a skill as much as it is an unnecessary requirement to play the game. Making L-Canceling automatic just makes the game more accessible, and rejecting that is just egotistical gatekeeping.
Melee and smash in general are dead anyway
@@shakeweller nah Ranked just came out
That's not true because top players still miss l cancels in top 8s of supermajors when the pressure is on
Being able to L-cancel consistently is absolutely a skill, and I'd prefer if the game rewarded skill. I can see the argument that it raises the skill floor too much while not adding enough competitive depth to make up for it, but to call it egotistical gatekeeping is an uneducated claim.
Saying "If you consistently L-Cancel, there's no actual competitive advantage over other people who also consistently L-Cancel." is a strange statement. You could say the same thing about aiming in FPS games and then draw the farcical conclusion that everyone should have aimbot, because top players with perfect aim is gatekeeping new players.
Execution is just as important as strategy is, why artificially lessen it.
@@jakefromstatefarm6969 You're looking at L-cancelling as a skill instead of a requirement to play.
You don't get better at L-cancelling than other people and doing it doesn't give you any advantage over others, you just lose badly if you don't do it. This is why it's an artificial skill floor rather than a skill.
If you compare L-cancelling to something like wave-dashing, the difference is very clear. Wave-dashing is not at all necessary to play the game. There's a well-known player who's tag escapes me who is famous for performing well despite not using wavedashing or any other technical movement.
You can fully play the game and perform well without wave-dashing, but practicing wavedashing and doing it better than others gives you a notable advantage. It's not mandatory to do while also rewarding players who do master it.
This is why wavedashing is an actual skill and L-cancelling is a requirement. If L-cancelling as an input was removed and done automatically, the skill level and player performance in the competitive scene doesn't actually change. Whether it's automatic or not, L-cancelling is being done on every landing. The only differences are that it takes one less input which in the long run is better on the hands and that the entry level for the game is dropped, making it more accesible.
Non-automatic L-cancelling really is gatekeeping new players out. It's an unnecessary requirement to burn it in to your muscle memory just to play one game; and not only does this not transfer over to any other game, but that habitual muscle memory is actually detrimental in any other game.
I cant get enough of these analytical simply videos, keep up the good work dude
Always appreciate your vids like this that come from the heart
I never knew the entire reason why siglemic ran on n64 other than the Japanese players did, so thanks for sharing the complete context!
Thanks for this! So cool to see you breaking all this down.
You should make more videos in this format Simply! This was a really enjoyable and interesting watch :)
I love these simply videos where he gives kind of a history of the speedrunning Mario64 scene and these are just fun. I have just as much fun watching him go for WRs too, simply is the man
Awesome video Simply!!
So glad there was no elitism here and you recognized those who are on other platforms yet really skilled. As an OG of the game and living legend (no cap, no sarcasm) it’s huge when you say things like that and don’t stand for the toxic stuff.
Great history lesson, explanation, and shoutouts to your editor too for doing a great job. Then linking Drogie’s video at the end. *chef’s kiss*
2:45 thank you editor for reminding Simply there's still GIGACHADS out there. Also, Toby Fox music in the background? I love this guy
Very cool video Simply! I knew like 10%ish of the history of this, but there was so much I learned.
Great video! I knew the records were separated by platform, but I didn't know it went so deep! Thanks for sharing this interesting history!
That last one was fucking hilarious lmao
"Oh, I didn't do it right? Well then let me do it right but while also clowning on your ass"
This year I got an N64 and fired up SM64 and was surprised at how much lag is in the game lol. It's actually much worse than it looks when you watch people play on stream.
they wont tell you this but the elite speedrunners rig their N64 with an RTX 4090
the game aged like hot garbage
edit : when played on original hardware, of course.
7:50 actually, there's a law in japan against homebrewing consoles, and since you kinda would need to homebrew your wii to put mario 64 in there now that the wii shop is closed, or homebrew any other console where you have a legal mario 64 copy to dump it for emulators, i don't think newer speedruners have many options when it comes to choosing what version to speedrun (using other methods could get them in trouble)
In other words, new speedruners can only safely use two options:
1) Switch version
2) Nintendo 64 version
and after what you said about the switch version, i think it makes sense they choose the Nintendo 64 instead
L-canceling does not add depth, it adds an execution barrier. You can absolutely value it as a way to differentiate people who put in practice time, but any choice where one alternative is always preferable (getting the l-cancel) does not add depth
As a european kid growing up with sm64, I had no problems cause I emulated it
Based
Same
same lol
Lag reduction is a really cool skill to overcome a older games flaws. L-cancelling is an uninteresting mechanic in a game were all the other execution barriers lead to something interesting.
yeah, L canceling doesn't increase the skill ceiling in any way, its purely punitive for low skilled players and makes it less fun for all; arbitrarily adding complexity without adding any depth to the game.
@@turmspitzewerk yeah, I honestly don't see how him or anyone claims it adds "depth". I think it's the opposite of what he says, people who are comfortable with it say it's good just cuz they can do it,
Now wave dashing is a good mechanic. It's just an optional tech than improves movement. You don't have to do it all the time. Most importantly is it's actually intuitive, unlike L canceling which is pretty random and feels like a bug
@@dugtrioramen wavedashing and many other tech in melee is a good deal unintuitive and clunky to be honest, i vastly prefer rival's implementation; which makes the inputs for many techniques more accessible and forgiving without limiting all the same things you can do with them. its never not a good thing to maximize depth while limiting complexity in a game. of course, that doesn't make them bad mechanics, just a little less good than they otherwise could be. its simply additional depth that expands the skill ceiling for those who choose to use it.
while i personally lean more to the side of a high skill ceiling, other players may prefer a less complex game with little interest in high level play in thats fine. obviously there are many ways you can exchange features out to tip your game from one end of the scale to the other; but there's always *some* quality of life changes to be made that can ever so slightly lower the skill floor without reducing the skill ceiling. those changes may not be huge, but they're always a welcome improvement.
conversely; L canceling is the total opposite. simply increasing the skill floor and making it harder to reach the skill ceiling, without actually improving said skill ceiling. the fact that a top level melee player has to perform 90 inputs a second may be impressive to an outside viewer, but inside the game itself it only stands to limit the strategy and skill the players are trying to express.
I'd love to see runs of the lag reduced builds on n64.
I think Halo players use lag reduced builds sometimes.
I think with a game like SM64 it's fine to have the orginal hardware the standard because they aren't too difficult to get and the game isn't either. Some speedrunning communities this can become a problem though, as either the orginal hardware or the software becomes too expensive and the "point of entry" for people interested becomes too great.
Thanks for sharing the info!
And is good to know that competition is fair and hard.
Man my childhood spent on PAL M64, I live life in slo-mo now
Aw life guard simply reminds me of the time I showed up and said "hey I've been busy I wish I could catch more streams." And he responded "nah man you have a life now. Don't feel bad."
I’ve been wanting to start speed running mario64. Idk exactly how I’d use my obs on my n64 so i might do an emulator. Does project64 have the option to replicate n64 load and lag speeds so it perfectly emulates an n64?
2:55 actually there are two version of the game,the one you played as you said is the shindou version (3d all stars),but there is an actual second version that emulates directly the Nintendo 64(by purchasing Nintendo Switch Online + Expansion Pack)
and where did you think the "shindou" bugfixed version originated from ?
the nintendo 64. there were just 2 releases of the game. both on N64. in the 1990s
@@YounesLayachi nice nitpicking
obviously they meant the original non-shindou version
love these informative edited videos
Sounds like switching between pal and the normal version would be a pain in the ass, especially with top runners with such precise muscle memory.
I remember someone bringing up that there's a finite amount of consoles which will, eventually, all break down. If speed running continues long enough, it will end up being done on emulators.
ngl growing up playing PAL, we european kids didn't know any better, it was the norm
That bit about basedurngod was hilarious. Interesting video all around.
I like how it feels like there’s twin brothers presenting this video. great video lads
Good video. I have access to all the versions but I run on Wii because I like using a GC controller. The colors are less vibrant, but the resolution is doubled from 240p on N64 to 480p on Wii, so it still looks better overall IMO at least on my CRT. Also, Wii loses 3s on resets to the Classic Controller screen, so the difference is more like 15s for 16 Star and well under 2mins for 120. I think everyone should just play on what version they like best and not worry too much about it
The Retrotink boost the 240p resolution to 480i I believe
great content my man, hope to see more like it :)
How is WiiVC fster than pc? is it remastered in some way for the virtual console or whats up with that
I loved this video, it was really interesting. Like a mini version of a summoning salt video, but with Simply humour 👍
The idea of speedrunners bullying each other is probably the funniest shit I’ve ever heard
Even in the special ed room there's a pecking order
This is a really good and informative video.
Decent analysis video! Thanks for uploading!
this is a kinda sick rundown, I've literally never done any sm64 speedrunning even though it looks insanely cool, but this is a really good tradition
Hey, what is the song that starts at 7:00? I recognize it but don't remember where from
Here we are. from Undertale
any thoughts on the reversed engineered Super Mario 64 that was ported to Windows? runs amazing. has widescreen support, 4k, and 60fps. I know it'll never be an official speedrun version but would be interesting for simply to look at.
PAL has seriously been shafted a lot. PAL is higher resolution than NTSC, but slightly lower framerate. The 60Hz of NTSC means that games ran at 30 FPS with interlacing, and 50hz of PAL made games run at 25 FPS. And most of the time, instead of actually adjusting the game to run at full speed with 25 FPS, they simply slowed down the entire game by 17% and called it a day.
I think the main difference between SM64 lag reduction and L-canceling is single player vs multiplayer. Competitive Melee is all about outsmarting your opponent and constantly adapting to the current situation. There are definitely some mechanically challenging moves/techniques, but for the most part, they aren't more difficult than they need to be. And with these techniques, you need to know when and where to implement them effectively. With L-canceling, there's no decision to be made. "Should I L-cancel here?" Yes, always. That's why I'm not a fan.
P.S. Some will argue that the opponent can tilt their shield to throw off your L-canceling timing, which creates interesting interplay. This is way too minor of an effect for it to justify the mechanic in my opinion.
This is really interesting - thanks!
5:56 Simply could I please get the song name, I remeber this from my DS but I can't place the game
Mario 64 speedrunning is nuts. Apparently at one point someone gained an advantage because an actual gamma ray hit their system and changed one byte
Don't diss a mfer for speedrunning the European SM64 😢
great video, I remember when I first started watching speedrun, it all started when I clicked an TH-cam video with a crowd shouting siglemic, then I continued watching the video.
hey simply in Speedrun category where would you put the unofficial sm64 pc port?
Gotta love Sig getting WR's just to prove a point
There are 2 switch versions now, All Stars being shindou (or however you spell it), and the one on the 64 virtual console being the original
Holy shit, that was a nice script, you spoke really well dud. Got me really entertained.
the feeling and satisfaction you talked about playing on original hardware is the same for dudes like me who play SMW acventure hacks and kaizo mario its cool on Emulators but on a real snes or snes mini it hits different and we love it
Thank you! Rewatched the VOD. As princess Toadstool declares in her turquoise-blue glory that the power of the Stars is restored to the castle with Blink-182 blasting in the background you know the balance of the world has been truly restored.
The PAL version also has weird audio oddities. The star door sound's second part is the same pitch as the first part's ending note. It doesn't change pitch at all. The castle music has longer notes. This results in notes overlapping and sounding kinda creepy. The sound button on the file select was replaced with "Options". It's the exact same thing as sound but with language options. The game runs like absolute garbage. Trust me, I tried my best to get 120 stars, but haven't touched the game in months because of how painful it is to play.
5:39 what game is this song from? MC?
9:29 sigh... [unbuttons shirt]
love this style of content :]
The switch also has the Nintendo switch online version that is not the shindu version of the game it’s the original one so idk how that compares to wii VC but it’s obviously a lot better for speedrunning than the 3d all stars version is
I look forward to linking this video whenever this can of worms is opened, thank you.
Doesn't the switch version on NSO rather than SM3DAS not have the shindou version? What's that like?
What is that song playing at 6:05? It sounds so familiar and I can't place it
It was Museum from Game and Watch Gallery 4!
Did any of the future versions enable the optimization flag that was left off in the original?
2:03 That "barely a sub 1 hour" time is only equivalent to a 49:57 the PAL 70 WR could be pushed alot further. And at the time PAL wasn't apart of the category extention leaderboards. To compare to those times you had to filter out NTSC versions from the main leaderboard. At the time I was the PAL 70 WR holder (also as a bit of a meme) but did all the calculations to work out that 24m 1hr12m and 2hr24m on PAL was equivalent to 20m 1hr and 2hr on NTSC.
2:37 The Wii U is actually the first legit way those in EU/Aus could play the NTSC version. The Wii VC also gave them the PAL version
2:50 You completely missed the NSO version on Switch. While the JP version also contained Shindou. You could create a free account in the US region, download their version of the NSO app and then use your already paid account to log into it.
What about Latin America, Africa, Indian subcontinent and Eastern Europe? Or even Korea and China? I guess most of them never had their own versions... So the only real way for them to play is either to import which could be expensive or to emulate...
@@gamermapper China got the iQue version originally
Why does a SM64 run begin at console start/reset instead of file select?
I have never played anything but the PAL version, which is perfectly fine when you have nothing to compare it to.
2:44 nice job editor.
My videos (not on this account) don't really lend themselves to this type of editing (more education focused) but I do want to look for opportunities for stuff like this to break things up a little bit.
That WiiU cut was exquisite
There's actually TWO Switch versions of SM64!
Mario 3D All-Stars and the N64 Online app.
L canceling is dumb and only serves as a way to develop carpal tunnel.
Wouldn’t mod melee to add auto l cancel, but it’s really dumb when brawl and ultimate mods add it as a gameplay feature just because melee did it.
Do you play with a Hori Pad?
I'd play on the N64 I just don't like the controller
@Simply the Switch actually has a N64 emulator and the version of Mario 64 on that is not patched and everything works as youd like it to work.
Love the ecco2k record in the back
The idea of L canceling is dumb, it put unnecessary depth into a game
What the fuck Simply this video was actually wonderful. Great info and anecdotes. Well presented too.
Simply just wanted to say that i not only run the game on the wii U but use the gamepad to play as well
bro i was watching and i got the entire guardian of the galaxy 3 trailer 2 minute 💀
Actually, there are 2 Switch emulations of Mario 64. 3D All-Stars AKA the English Shindou version, and a Nintendo Switch Online-exclusive port which has BLJs included. Why didn't the online port on Switch use the Shindou port like 3D All-Stars?
I feel like Nintendo knows that we want BLJs, and thats why they locked it behind a subscription
@@translarrybutz I hear the new Pokémon games have a form of BLJ.
Looking at it kind of reminds me of the slope trick from Mario Galaxy 1.
Back when I ran the game I was heavily criticised for playing on VC, I remember 'wens n64' comments being the majority of my chat, after giving into peer pressure like a pussy I reluctantly switched to N64 and got some decent times (for the time) but unfortunately I lost my enjoyment, call me a sadist but I loved playing VC with the washed out colours, amazing GC controller and DDD running like an absolute boss. I personally have always believed VC should be the standard, however I appreciate and understand the points you've articulated in this video, the history and community of the game is definitely a top priority. I'll sit on the sidelines for now until the revolution..
"We play on this version because it's harder." Most game speedruns tend to be on the easiest skill levels, because it's faster. Doom speedruns, from nearly the beginning, have been on the hardest* skill level, with some even being run with extra difficulty modifiers. (Nightmare is just Ultra Violence with -fast and -respawn turned on, they have the same entity layouts. And yes, some people run it on that as well, being one of those 'extra difficulty modifiers.') Always found that a bit amusing.
Cutting out to the Wii U was gold
Great video! Gonna use this as an excuse to promote Emulators for Mario Power Hour though- it's not about saving time with emulator, it's about not having to slam your decades old cartridges just for the chance at leaderboard (and gatekeeping from people who don't have a famicom)- I know it's a bit of a meme speedrun, but there are so many factors keeping people from even attempting it which aren't adding value to the category.
We could separate into separate categories, but then the non-emulator category will be dead because nobody wants to deal with losing runs to tilted cartridges, let alone breaking something. IMO the best solution is to just retime old runs to remove switch times.
Kosmic viewer?
3:08 there is another switch version with the NSO tho
As an old age of empires enjoyer, there was a similar fear that the new definitive version of the game would make the game too easy when they introduced things like auto scouting and auto farm reseeding. Turns out, no. Removing annoying barriers to entry just encouraged more competition. It made dominating other aspects of the game more important. A lot of people in the community actually welcomed the change as it was not really all that fun an aspect of the game.
Never saw a pro using auto scouting it's bad
i have a wii u and i love the thing, mainly cause it runs everything with a bit of effort.