I shoot 338 Lapua, and when I purchased my rifle i couldn't afford factory ammunition at that time in 2009. So I purchased a box of Lapua brass and began measuring the neck thickness and found that they had about half of the necks had thick and thin spots in various locations. So I set up my Sinclair neck turner to trim off the thick spots and bring the case necks to be more uniform thickness. Then I loaded them using the Sierra 250 grain Matchking bullets to the same specifications that Black Hills loads there ammunitions. Then I loaded a starting load latter and worked up to the powder level Black Hills level. To my surprise the Black Hills loading was the most accurate using the Sierra 250 grain matchking bullet. The key to turning the necks is to allow the bullets release of the tension of the neck completely 360 degrees around the interior of the case neck, causing the neck to expand to the extreme interior dimension of the chamber's neck so the bullet is caught in a bubble of expanding gases as those same gases are pushing the bullet forward towards the freebore of the barrels throat and into the rifling. When the case neck has a thickness that is not uniform in thickness the bullet can be pushed sideways, When the bullet reaches the lands and grooves you want the bullet to obturation to be equal or as the bullet travels through the barrel it will exit off center. That then governs bullet placement on the target.
Just a note to say thank you for all the work that went into producing this outstanding content… I especially appreciate you showing results on targets.
Great video. Very true and such an important area to discuss. You can overturn the brass, and I've done that by accident. I've done similar tests, and have seen some improvement as well. For Lapua, Alpha, & Peterson; I don't see nearly as much improvement compared to Hornady. HDay brass is much thinner in the neck and body than the previous three. I see my HDay cases having a larger volume than the others. I even tried cutting down .308 cases to see if reduction of volume would aid in higher pressures with less inconsistency in the walls and neck post annealing and turning. I did see some interesting results compared to out of the box 6.5CM brass. I've been considering buying some .260 cases just to see what happens with them on downsizing to 6.5CM does in comparison to .308 cases. I did notice if I neck turn, fire the case, then try to resize without annealing that the case mouths will not hold a bullet after the 2nd firing. The brass just springs right back to its original fired size in the neck due to the thinner brass not being strong enough to resist the spring back.
This is a good video, thank you for the time and effort to make and post it. I've been getting 3+ MOA loads across 2 powders, 4 bullets, and various COL and I'm questioning the necks (necked-down brass). This is enough for me to decide to try it.
I almost always turn mine down. I usually fire them once first, then turn the necks. But I’ve been known to do it right out of the box to. I’ve seen improvements anytime I turn necks, assuming they need turning that is. I’ve got lucky before with starline and Lapua having necks with .0005 difference between each case. Basically a half thousandths, so those I didn’t bother turning and they shot well.
I have been using the Lapua brass in my 6.5. It rocks because the neck is so thick. I'm taking a reloading class later this year that Alpha is putting on. I'm hoping theirs is just as good because it's way cheaper.
Good video as are others you upload. Helped me decide a couple things and learned a few things from both the video and comments. One- I use Hornady brass that I obtain by buying factory loaded ammunition, not bags of 'new' brass. So: I have been thinking about annealing and now I feel it would be a waste of money, insofar as gaining a benefit from increased life, # of loads, of my brass. Because of loose primer pocket or CH issues occurring, negating the gains made in neck life by annealing. The benefit to annealing, then IMO would be a possible reduction in SDs/ESs. Appreciate the candor about a shortcoming, IMO, of the Hornady neck turning tool. Namely the coarse adjustment of the cutter. Also, I am not real excited about holding and using a cordless drill to run the 'mini' lath. I think there is a superior neck turner on the market with an integral electric motor. Jury is still out on whether to neck turn. I'm typically under .002" on run-out and most times around .001". And your video gave me a nice 'confirm' on my decision to use the Sinclair expander mandrel and its die on my case necks. Finally, you do a good job presenting your information and topic and you do a nice job in producing your video. Good camera angles and lighting and no background noises, like a phone ringing, dog barking , kid crying, etc :) lg
I’ve always had to turn my brass: because I have tight neck tolerances in all my guns… Once you turn them once : your done! B Deacon Manitoba Canada 🇨🇦
I'm turning case necks because as an old National Match shooter I have a basement full of 308 brass and with the excessive cost of 6.5 Creedmoor brass, if I can find it, to feed my Savage 10T I've started converting 308 to 6.5. Hornady brass isn't bad but Federal is very thick comparatively and after seating a bullet the case wall thickness can prevent chambering properly. The side benefit is increased accuracy.
I bought a Hornady case neck turner, I didn't see a big whopping difference. But the difference I seen, it was worth the price. I recommend it and be careful not to cut to much
People should make sure they turn the necks down so the cutter just kisses the case shoulder . That way you know you have cut all the length of the neck . If you stop short of that you run the risk of creating a ridge just before the neck shoulder junction that upon firing transfers inside the case creating a doughnut . People who are skim turning for a factory chamber do not need to clean up the whole neck circumference , it's not necessary and it leads to necks that are too thin . Clean it up about 75% and after a few shots it will clean up again a bit more at the same turner setting . Remember that in a factory chamber the more you turn the neck down the greater the gap will be between the loaded round neck diameter and the chamber wall . Which negates some of the benefits especially if the case body is a sloppy fit in the chamber and the round lays on the bottom of the chamber . This situation can also be corrected with partial neck sizing and using body dies when resizing the body and a separate neck sizing only die , Lee collet or Redding bushing . Bushing dies work better on neck turned brass , collet dies work well on all brass however to shorten the neck size length of a Collet die put a steel washer over the case onto the shell holder . This gives you the partial neck size and a slight second shoulder just above the neck shoulder junction . This never gets sized again by the body die or the neck die and stops the case ever laying in the bottom of the chamber and centers the neck even though you have neck turned it and lost brass thickness . You have reclaimed the neck centering better than before turning and the turning improves neck tension , bullet release , bullet seating accuracy and neck sizing precision . I just gave you one of my accuracy secrets that I developed back in 1967 .
Neck turning seems to work best when the rifle has been 'prepped' for accuracy work. I work with WW1 era rifles and middle to large size game, so half a hair accuracy is not needed. I do have a couple accurate intended rifles I would like to get sub-tiny groups. I have a Forster case length trimmer and neck turner. I confess I haven't used it much and could probably use more practice.
That is my thought, though I am also interested to see if it modifies my velocity graphs that I have been working on as well. So much to test, so little time.
Interesting and informative video, thank you. Concerning accuracy, you may want to go away from magnum primer and play with seating depth. Thanks again!
There is a whole lot more to neck turning in a factory chamber . Just turning the case down is a small part of what else you need to do , reloading wise to gain the best benefit . Most people do not know how to skim neck turn and partial neck size and then use body dies to size the body of the case to take full advantage . Most of what I see on the internet on this subject is either very basic , missing the whole picture or just plain wrong .
The only time I neck turn brass is if the fired brass neck ID is at or less than bullet OD - then I skin it just to allow minimum clearance. Does wonders for SD numbers.
I'm not a professional reloader, but, all the old timers that have been reloading for years have told me never to use magnum primers on anything other than cases that hold over 65 grains of powder. Also what size inline fabrication mount are you using with your forster co ax?
Whatever, old timers also started their cars with a hand crank too. Science and technology has come a long way since. Way over half of the F-Class Open competitors use CCI 450 primers(Magnum) even for 6MM cases at Mid-range (about 32 to 32.6 grains of powder). These are professional reloaders who compete at the highest level. They do not follow old wives tales, they test for themselves and do what works best. Remember the old timers said to not bump the shoulders, the bolt should have some (measure that) tension when closing the bolt to extend brass life. Ask all those "oldtimers" if they shoot sub 5 inch groups at a thousand yards regularly, or just shoot at deer and coyotes from 100 yards. The world record at 600 yards for a 5 shot group is .282 inches. I have seen very few oldtimers who can shoot that at 100 yards, but you listen to the oldtimers if you want to.
I have recently switched to Fed 215's from Fed 210's, in my Winchester Model 70 Pre-64 30-06, and my Rem 700 Mil Spec 5R .308. I have noticed close E.S. and improved group sizes. Drop your charges by a grain, and build back up if needed. I didn't notice any changes. Liked the video!
I shoot a AR10 SASS 308 20"@ 250yrds. Magnum or regular CCI primers, 42.5gr of IMR 4064, 168gr Speer BTHP. I notice no difference and groups are less than .75" @ 250 yards.
Hello In my experience before neck turning I was shooting 3 to 3/12 inch groups groups After neck turning 1 to 1.2 inches that’s with my 6.5 Grendel hornady brass cci br4 primers & benchmark propellant I hate to said it ! but my first test non neck turn was perform wit cci 400 primers I need to make another test to have a more conclusive test But that’s all about right! I like reloading much as like Shooting is really push you at your limits ..
To get a true test the shooter can not know before he shoots whether the necks have been turned or not. Even with that said there's enough evidence in this video and in the comments to justify the time and expense in turning for precision shooting. The bullet releases from the neck more evenly and (assuming the head space is correct) the neck better fits the chamber and centers the bullet. Thank you for taking the extra time to make this video... very much appreciated.
Why such a slow powder? I always thought 6.5CM was better suited for something like a 4350 burn rate as where RL26 is a bit closer to 300 WM range. Not saying you're wrong at all. Just curious. I'm trying to learn which is why I watch videos like yours.
The large groups could be from the powder choice? Neck turning seemed to help slightly but a powder change could make a major difference to the group sizes. My rifle hates the Alliant brand
This will be next on my to-do list I think. I've been struggling my my hornady brass but I'm not quite ready to pitch the 200 cases I collected from shooting factory loads and buy premium brass. I'll get a dozen .2-.4 moa groups of 5 and then 2 groups with fliers jumping up to .8. Deburring the flash hole cut the occurrence of this by about 75 percent, bedding the recoil lug of my accustock cut that remaining quarter by half but there's still something else going on.
Did u shoot brass in the gun before you shot the the unturned neck because if you didn't the brass was new and was not formed to the chamber which would have changed the outcome on the test just saying!!
Do you have a run out gauge? I'm wondering if crushing a few of your cases in the collet die before full length sizing them would help straighten them out if neck turning them actually helped that much.
Awesome video. I have been thinking about getting something to do neck turning but haven’t made my mind up on which brand to buy. Do you have any other brands you’re familiar with ?
Depends on how much you think you will turn. If the quantities are low a K and N manual kit would work fine probably. If you want quality and quantity 21st century reloading makes some very high quality equipment.
I have K+M. Very happy with it, and they have fixed many issues I've had over the years due to wear and stripped screws (not from their products). Good people!
I have shot some groups .5 - .6 MOA with other projectiles, which as a shooter is probably what I am capable of. My round count isn't at 2k yet and I really haven't seen a velocity drop. I am pretty sure by barrel just doesn't like the 130 RDF. I need to see if it can shoot with a different COAL bu who knows.
Nice video and I admire your courage in putting up such bad numbers. I'd wait until you are sub 1/2 MOA and then look to differences. There are more things wrong or right than neck tuning at play here. I did not see anything about neck tension and how far off the lands, etc? Not to put you down but my neighbor shoots 1/2 MOA all day long with handloads in his 6.5 Creed RPR. He does no neck turning BTW. Have you thought about an EC Barrel Tuner? Might try one and see if your groups improve. Good luck!
Hi George, I did 2 videos on this subject and one I did to show that it had some improvement on a OK load and then a really Bad load to show that it wasn't a magic fix all. I don't pick who TH-cam shows which too so I get this a lot more than you might think. I thought it was funny that I still saw improvement but it certainly doesn't fix a bad load was what I was trying to get through on the video. A barrel tuner isn't going to fix this combo. I may try one when I can test it objectively. This is a much better example of the performance that I have been able to get. th-cam.com/video/45rtyfwPRSw/w-d-xo.html
Those SD values are pretty bad as are the groups. 6.5 in general should give you a pretty good group. I would go to a regular large rifle primer and a different powder to see if that helps. Although, this was over a year ago, so you probably already got it handled.
Neck turning shouldn't be viewed as a "fix all." Neck turning is most effective when using a ft/lb gage when seating. Then sort them according to seating ft.lbs. It also works better using an expander mandrel last, to uniform your case neck tension. LE Wilson makes a special die for this, as does Sinclair + 21st Century shooting. B4 this process, it helps to find the node of your rifle(seating several bullets 0.003" apart until you find a very tight group). Most seat long 1st and work to the shorter length COAL. I like seating short and stepping up in length. This way when I find my sweet spot, all I have to do is shorten COAL on the rest as opposed to using a bullet puller.
I expect the amount of ballistic improvement will be proportionate to the quality of the brass. The worst brass will show the most improvement, but perfectly concentric brass not so much.
Hi Mark, I understand that you are concerned about the data in this test. I would not expect anyone to trust a random person on the internet but hopefully I can walk through a couple things that you can certainly verify independently. I stated at 1:00 minute in that the data for the test is based from Bergers website. You can Google "Berger load data 135 6.5 creedmoor" and they list online the load data for the 135 CH with a max charge of 49.8 gr. The start load is 45.0 gr for RL-26. I understand that you are concerned about using magnum primers. This is something I have tested on this channel quite frequently. I just did a test with 223 on 9 different primers (some are magnum primers) and the pressure data is very similar primer to primer th-cam.com/video/a69VBkT_Mxo/w-d-xo.html. As with any test you start low and work up. I know the grain weights seem very large for 6.5 CM but that is what berger lists for the 135 CH. If you run these numbers in Quick load the max case pressure is 60358 psi at 50grs, @47.4 gr the pressure is 49055. During the test I saw no concerning pressure signs on the brass of heavy bolt handle that indicated anything concerning. I am not sure if this will address your concerns or not. (also it is not an advised practice to take others load data without validating it yourself) You also asked about how to even fit that much powder, with a drop tube. I have a video on it here if you are interested: th-cam.com/video/sc5S8gub30g/w-d-xo.html I use it for any loads that are somewhat compressed and it works very well. BAR
I didn’t have no luck in a 243 with a match barrel. Tried different powders and bullet depth and just would not shoot, but my cousin 6.5 creed would print one hole at 100 yards.
Good video, Good test, and it looks promising for sure, more testing with loads/projectiles that had good prior results will show more benefits or not in the neck turning process.
Bolt Action Reloading, I'd think several factors may change, and will possibly create other rabbit holes to consider jumping into, which is one of the things I enjoy about reloading, a simple 5 degree change or the cartilage sitting in a warm or hot chamber for a few seconds longer etc all can play on the end result. Definitely not a hobby with a finite end result, making for more interesting/different results. Keep it up👍
2 moa tighter after only neck turning? That doesn't make any sense at all. Guys out there don't even bother doing it and still plug 1500 yard+ shots. 3moa would be ridiculous spread that that range. Something else was changed. Whether you knew it or not.
I would have to try to develop a load for shooting that poorly, assuming I continue to put effort in the fundamentals behind the trigger. I wonder if something isn’t loose on the rifle, or if there isn’t a bad spot in the barrel/crown. Turning necks only adds a little consistency to neck tension. I’ve had some of my best groups with crimped necks in a rifle, but the crimp was uniform and consistent on all rounds. Too many unknowns not covered in this video to know what the culprit was, but I doubt neck tension was a major factor. Should have loaded identical charge weights for turned vs unturned, shot on the same outing. Environmental factors could have “tightened” something up on the rifle since the previous groupings were shot.
@@christopherfreeman3095 plenty of other factors to consider including shooter error. but i have a hard time buying that big of a spread just on neck turning. i don't turn my necks and I shoot sub .5moa out of a factory Remington barrel. something ain't right
In theory, it should help on any rifle (provided it is not a total POS). Everything about reloading is achieving consistency. If the bullet sits in a neck that is more concentric, the bullet will hit the lands more consistently. So, in theory, accuracy should improve no matter what gun you are using.
Are they junk? I've almost picked them up a few times but I haven't seen anything better than barely sorta acceptable from guys I trust. You'd think Nosler would be able to compete, they make some great stuff.
Yea, not gonna turn my Hornady brass anytime soon, it measures .0003" difference, worst case might be .0007"(literally a few out of a hundred), better overall than Lapua it looks like, and getting way better accuracy than what you're getting from your video results.
@Kilgore Kilgore No, it's 3 10,000.(.0003") It'd be some awfully crappy brass if one side measured .014" and the other side of the neck measured .017", Hornady brass is way better than you might think. I've measured enough of it to know. lol
What in the world are you doing? 1) RL 26 is for bottleneck magnum cases, not modest capacity cases like the 6.5 mm Creedmoor. The Nosler website/manual doesn't even list a RL 26 load for that cartridge. What would be the point? Nosler, instead, uses the faster RL 15 and RL 17, that are more suitable for modest capacity cases. 2) If a gun is shooting 3" groups, there's something drastically wrong either with the barrel or your hand loading techniques. Correct that problem first. 3) SAAMI (factory size) chambers are usually .005" to .0006" larger than unfired or full length resized case to ensure reliable feeding. Neck turning cartridges with non-custom/ factory chambers is usually counterproductive because it gives the case neck and hence bullet more room to misalign in the chamber after ignition. Case neck turning is generally only productive with tighter custom chambers. 4) Having said that, there are occasional exceptions: Neck turning on my Weatherby calibers with custom barrels (but with factory barrels) failed to produce any increase in accuracy. For example, my 26" Shilen barrelled 270 Weatherby Mag remained at .6 moa with 150 grain Nosler partitions, and 1.0 moa with 130 grain Partitions. However, my custom barrelled 28" 300 REM, which already had lots of freebore, shot consistently tighter groups after neck turning.
Hi Will, Let me try and attack these in order. First you ask "What in the world are you doing?" I am running a reloading channel and testing conventional ideas on how people tell me how I should be reloading. I run tests and show my results good or bad so that we can all learn something maybe. 1. RL-26 is the incorrect powder here, but it worked fantastic with the Berger 135 classic hunter. I had to give it a try. Data here: www.bergerbullets.com/pdf/6.5-Creedmoor-135gr.pdf If I see now that Nosler finally updated their data online to include the RDF projectiles. The 140 RDF was out much longer than a year and they updated nothing. And with a quick review of a couple other cartridges I still don't see any RL 16, RL 26, or RL 23 anywhere in the Nosler data. Not going to wait for Nosler to catch up before I try them out. Its at least nice to see that the changed the COAL on the 140RDF on their data since when I emailed Nosler about it they told me 2.775". 2. While I try to appreciate peoples opinion, stating that the gun is broken or I don't know how to reload is a bit over the top here. If your new here I encourage you to check out some of the other videos I have made on the channel. Many with far smaller than MOA groups with this rifle and with the same hand loading process and equipment. This bullet (130RDF) like its big brother (140RDF) seem to be very sensitive to jump, both have set records on my channel with the worst groups I have shot with any projectile. 3. I really don't have anything to comment on here, I agree saami chambers are larger than custom (benchrest) I am doing my own testing here to determine this for myself. Benchrest typically require neck turning to get brass to chamber, its not done to improve performance as much as it is done out of necessity to chamber a round. 4. I get the impression that you feel I am turning these necks further than I am. I am only turning the necks to even them out. My final thickness was very close to .0127", and there were still very small areas that were not contacted by the cutter. Trying to achieve more consistent neck tension is my goal, I am certainly not neck turning for fun, only to determine if it is worth the time spent. In this case it was. BAR
I know people that shoot 6.5 CM with a 26 inch barrel and use RE26 and 140-147gr bullets for competition. If you run it through Quickload you'll be able to see % of powder burn. For 22 inch barrel I use RE16 though.
No this barrel was well capable of 1/2 to 3/4 MOA groups on the regular. This test was to go over the idea that neck turning wasn't going to be a magic fix for a projectile and barrel combination that just don't work well. I have not found a combo for this particular projectile that is worth testing.
I have done this periodically through other testing. I really feel if you are sorting brass removing gross outliers its effective but sorting the brass and loading it any further (sorting for exact case weight) hasn't seemed to shift my results nearly as drastically as this.
I weight sort my brass. Hornady has a huge variance in weight per bag of brass, some as much as 6 grains. 1 grain difference in brass weight = 1 grain of powder, which can really throw you off your node. I lot sort all my brass in 1 grain lots...ie 140-140.9.....141-141.9 been doing this for years...by the way i never turn my necks.
Reuben Gullackson, I've done some extensive testing of several calibers, 5.56, .243win & 300 win mag. I've found that virtually everything I've tested shows that brass weight has a value equivalent of .1gr powder to 2.0 brass weight, no matter what the caliber. I've applied this to everything I load which requires me to make up flow charts for everything I load and though it takes more time my # 1,2,3,4 etc. load of a certain powder with the same weight bullet," regardless of case weight" does produce extremely accurate ammo which gives me quite an edge in competition. It also throws out the worry of, is this load the same or how much does it very from that other batch of ammo with a different case weight? It's a concern I don't have. I think neck turning helps accuracy a lot. I often get an S.D. in most of my tested ammo in the teens to single digits, even with the 300 WM.
I don't think that comparing single 5-shot groups is a sound basis for any statistical analysis. Also, quoting group sizes with a value in the thousandths position implies a measurement capability that likely does not exist.
Well mike you have to look at anything and decide for yourself, like anything in life. I loaded the test and published my results. The software I use to measure the groups with the picture gave the measurements, I just tried to make it easy to see. Do your own test make your video and publish the results so people can see how much smarter you are.
You had a great idea and clearly put alot of thought into this video. This is the first of your videos ive watched and i probably would have subscribed but..... I cant for the life of me figure out how you could have possibly thought it was a good idea to use such a horrible load as an example. I mean this video is aimed at people striving for precision reloading. Yes i agree your loads with turned brass were night and day better but still worse than factory hornady eldm's out of a $600 savage rifle.. to me it brings more questions than answers. Seeing the number of videos you put out and the effort you put into them you obviously care about the quality of your content I would love to see this repeated with another proven load even a load workup of a few charge weights like this one but something that atleast shoots better than or equal to factory ammo with a quality rifle.
I wasnt done typing when i accidentally submitted before getting to say that i meant no disrespect at all and was only trying to offer some constructive criticism. I respect the time and effort you put into this video i just think using that load combination was a horrible idea. Yes it produced a huge improvement but also a lot of questions. Most considering neck turning are probably to the point where they are looking to shave even a tenth or two off their 100yd groups after covering all the basics to get them to sub moa averages... IMHO This video would have been way more impressive bringing a 1.00" group to a 0.80" group even averaging 0.10" to 0.20" improvement across the board than cutting a 3in group in half. Looking forward to future videos keep it up.
Hi Strato Caster, I would agree had I not done 2 other videos on the subject that this would seem odd. Here is a better shooting combo. th-cam.com/video/ktDXSv1brKc/w-d-xo.html I was trying possibly too hard to illustrate that its not a miracle worker. People unfortunately get their hears set on a particular projectile and they spend a ton of effort (like neck turning) to fix it. It helps but its not going to change your life. You never know what youtube is serving when and if you saw these out of order I can see why you would be confused. I hope you consider subscribing and I always appreciate good feedback. Thanks for not going crazy in the comments. BAR
Since the non-turned neck loads are basically the worst groups the rifle has ever shot and with other ammo I have had many loads able to hold 3/4 MOA or better I am very confident that the issue is 95% the ammo. It doesn't help that looking back this is just not the best powder choice and having large statistical differences probably didn't help any. As well as I am not the only one that has has issues trying to get these to work. forum.snipershide.com/threads/6-5-creedmoor-130-rdf.6873456/
For my conclusions I am basing this solely on group size change. No one in the right mind would tell you that should neck turn to reduce your ES from 86 to 70. They would tell you to try a different powder. (and that is what is needed here) The charge of RL-26 in this case is probably not burned completely before the bullet exists the barrel and is causing the erratic velocity performance. (if you check this with quickload you could know for sure) My conclusion are solely related to group size improvements. This is very simply not the right powder for this combo. You assume that these are different days and different conditions they are not. They were reloaded on the same day at the same time. These loads we shot on February 27, 2018 54°F 35%RH DALT of 775ft. These cases came from the same identical lot of Hornady Brass, the same number of firings, the only difference is 25 pcs were neck turned and 25 were left the same for the control group. Your accusations are very unfounded. If you would like to see me turn the neck on these cases here if the video where I did it: th-cam.com/video/aJDwZlJGltQ/w-d-xo.html I am not so silly as to argue desired case neck thickness. My goal was to remove as little material as possible so the contact with the blade was at least ~80% of the circumference of the case and maintain the same neck thickness across the lot. Hornady brass is far from perfect when it comes to case neck uniformity. If I remember correctly my finished turned dimension is about .0127" on these cases, if you really care that much. Keep in mind the resolution of my case neck turner is .0005", I don't believe that you can control this to .0001" if you remove the detent, but your experience may vary. For now this is what I do until I learn to do it better. This bullet construction requires that the bullet be very far away from the lands in my rifle. If I was .010" off the lands I would barely have the bullet in the case. (irresponsible reloading IMO) This requires the bullet to have significant jump to the lands. Bullets with very High BC are prone to being sensitive to this. I feel that the case having the more even on all sides neck tension allowed the bullet to release more uniformly from the case so it entered the lands more consistently. Since the top load used is compressed there was probably a detriment to the concentricity to the loaded rounds and caused that top charge groups to open up more than the other ones. Like I mentioned this is not the best powder choice for this combo. I was hoping to find something with RL-26 since I had good luck with the Berger 135 Classic hunter bullets but it didn't happen. My velocity curve on the 130 ELD-M in this video: th-cam.com/video/Pd_a9GGBBw8/w-d-xo.html demonstrates some erratic behavior in velocity as well so this really shouldn't be a shocker that the SD/ES info isn't good in this load. I have plan to revisit this testing again with a different combo but I haven't cycled around to it yet. In all, I really don't care what you think, these are my results. I don't need anyone to agree with them or not. It's the great thing about reloading you can load and do whatever you think will work best for you. With any reasonable ammo I have had no trouble keeping my groups to 1 MOA in this rifle. (some bullets work better than others) If you have different information that is actually based on FACTS and not your speculation or misconceived interpretation of my information try referencing that. Do yourself a favor, stop being this guy: dilbert.com/strip/2015-06-07 BAR
Bolt Action Reloading I have to say that the ES were pretty bad, but you still showed a difference in neck turning ether way. Yea you need a different powder for sure, 26 is a very good powder, but not in this cartridge. Works great in my custom build 300 Win Mag, but never worked good in 243 or 6.5 for me. I think your right, powder definitely not burning up, if you had a 32 inch barrel maybe! Lol. Like seeing people make more videos testing this stuff instead of just giving opinions, thank you. Just my experience an two cents. Thanks on videos an good luck.
@@BoltActionReloading I noticed a fair bit of vertical dispersion in at least some of your groups. I read, but never confirmed, that a change in primer will help with that. Any thoughts on that theory?
Those are awful numbers. Brass? I get better numbers from fresh brass. Lapua. I understand the testing but starts are not good. Shot 1/8th MOA with new brass just testing. Flash hole chamfer is important too. I think you’ll find annealing (factory or not, brass matrix) will drastically improve numbers. Brass, brass, brass. Consistency, consistency, consistency. Brass, powder selection by what the barrel likes. Slow, slower, slowest. Hot can produce results too. Twist versus bullet weight versus flat engagement versus ogive. Good bullets and brass make a huge difference. Blah, blah, blah...lol.
Rifle isn't broke, with the 140 ELD it can shoot .75 MOA groups all day. When I ran this test on them there wasn't a significant change. The point was it didn't seem to improve a good load much, would it improve a poor performing combination measurably.
Bolt Action Reloading neck tension isn't as important as most reloaders think. Concentricity on the other hand is more important than most think. When most reloaders turn necks it is to fit a chamber that centers the bullet in the bore. On a factory chamber with a loose neck turning the necks makes the condition even worse as it allows the ejector to hold the bullet offset of the bore more pronounced. The only time a loose neck is beneficial is when shooting borerider bullets that self align into the bore.
No surprise in improving group size with low quality brass by neck turning. Hornady brass is terrible in every caliber I have tested. I switched to Lapua or when it is not available I try PPU for every cartridge possible and get 1/2 MOA groups with a variety of powders with non match grade standard production quality rifles. Nosler Bullets are good for hunting, not good for match or target shooting. I use Sierra Match King and Hornady AMAX or ELD bullets for match or target loads. Reloder 26 is great and it works in many different cartridges I have tested such as 6.5 Swedish Mauser, 7x57 Mauser, 303 British, 7.5 Swiss, 7.62x54R, 308 Win, 300 Win Mag, and 6.5 Creedmore. I have been reloading pistol, rifle, and shotgun for only 40 years and still learning.
I didn't expect such a drastic change through. I have got reasonable groups from this brass, but was really surprised by the improvement. Still not a good load, but interesting for me anyway.
I am not anticipating that it will be significant since the typical failure of this cartridge is loose primer pockets, however if you go to far it can certainly cause problems and shorten life.
If you don't anneal then I would say the potential for cracked necks would be greater. Like BAR said, loose primer pockets is what usually sends Hornady brass to the scrap bin.
Hi Mike, I am obviously not impressed with 2-3 MOA groups as well, the point of the video is that these bullets have traditionally shot very poorly in my rifle and did the NT process improve that, which I do believe that it did. As for my rifle and press I think I will keep them since with other combinations I have been able to achieve 1/2 to 3/4 MOA groups very regularly, just not with this projectile.
I shoot 338 Lapua, and when I purchased my rifle i couldn't afford factory ammunition at that time in 2009. So I purchased a box of Lapua brass and began measuring the neck thickness and found that they had about half of the necks had thick and thin spots in various locations. So I set up my Sinclair neck turner to trim off the thick spots and bring the case necks to be more uniform thickness. Then I loaded them using the Sierra 250 grain Matchking bullets to the same specifications that Black Hills loads there ammunitions. Then I loaded a starting load latter and worked up to the powder level Black Hills level. To my surprise the Black Hills loading was the most accurate using the Sierra 250 grain matchking bullet. The key to turning the necks is to allow the bullets release of the tension of the neck completely 360 degrees around the interior of the case neck, causing the neck to expand to the extreme interior dimension of the chamber's neck so the bullet is caught in a bubble of expanding gases as those same gases are pushing the bullet forward towards the freebore of the barrels throat and into the rifling. When the case neck has a thickness that is not uniform in thickness the bullet can be pushed sideways, When the bullet reaches the lands and grooves you want the bullet to obturation to be equal or as the bullet travels through the barrel it will exit off center. That then governs bullet placement on the target.
Just a note to say thank you for all the work that went into producing this outstanding content… I especially appreciate you showing results on targets.
Great video. Very true and such an important area to discuss. You can overturn the brass, and I've done that by accident. I've done similar tests, and have seen some improvement as well. For Lapua, Alpha, & Peterson; I don't see nearly as much improvement compared to Hornady. HDay brass is much thinner in the neck and body than the previous three. I see my HDay cases having a larger volume than the others. I even tried cutting down .308 cases to see if reduction of volume would aid in higher pressures with less inconsistency in the walls and neck post annealing and turning. I did see some interesting results compared to out of the box 6.5CM brass. I've been considering buying some .260 cases just to see what happens with them on downsizing to 6.5CM does in comparison to .308 cases. I did notice if I neck turn, fire the case, then try to resize without annealing that the case mouths will not hold a bullet after the 2nd firing. The brass just springs right back to its original fired size in the neck due to the thinner brass not being strong enough to resist the spring back.
This is a good video, thank you for the time and effort to make and post it. I've been getting 3+ MOA loads across 2 powders, 4 bullets, and various COL and I'm questioning the necks (necked-down brass). This is enough for me to decide to try it.
I almost always turn mine down. I usually fire them once first, then turn the necks. But I’ve been known to do it right out of the box to.
I’ve seen improvements anytime I turn necks, assuming they need turning that is. I’ve got lucky before with starline and Lapua having necks with .0005 difference between each case. Basically a half thousandths, so those I didn’t bother turning and they shot well.
I have been using the Lapua brass in my 6.5. It rocks because the neck is so thick. I'm taking a reloading class later this year that Alpha is putting on. I'm hoping theirs is just as good because it's way cheaper.
Good video as are others you upload. Helped me decide a couple things and learned a few things from both the video and comments. One- I use Hornady brass that I obtain by buying factory loaded ammunition, not bags of 'new' brass. So: I have been thinking about annealing and now I feel it would be a waste of money, insofar as gaining a benefit from increased life, # of loads, of my brass. Because of loose primer pocket or CH issues occurring, negating the gains made in neck life by annealing. The benefit to annealing, then IMO would be a possible reduction in SDs/ESs.
Appreciate the candor about a shortcoming, IMO, of the Hornady neck turning tool. Namely the coarse adjustment of the cutter. Also, I am not real excited about holding and using a cordless drill to run the 'mini' lath. I think there is a superior neck turner on the market with an integral electric motor. Jury is still out on whether to neck turn. I'm typically under .002" on run-out and most times around .001".
And your video gave me a nice 'confirm' on my decision to use the Sinclair expander mandrel and its die on my case necks. Finally, you do a good job presenting your information and topic and you do a nice job in producing your video. Good camera angles and lighting and no background noises, like a phone ringing, dog barking , kid crying, etc :) lg
I’ve always had to turn my brass: because I have tight neck tolerances in all my guns… Once you turn them once : your done! B Deacon Manitoba Canada 🇨🇦
That made a bigger than than I expected.
It was far more drastic than I expected.
I'm turning case necks because as an old National Match shooter I have a basement full of 308 brass and with the excessive cost of 6.5 Creedmoor brass, if I can find it, to feed my Savage 10T I've started converting 308 to 6.5. Hornady brass isn't bad but Federal is very thick comparatively and after seating a bullet the case wall thickness can prevent chambering properly. The side benefit is increased accuracy.
I bought a Hornady case neck turner, I didn't see a big whopping difference. But the difference I seen, it was worth the price. I recommend it and be careful not to cut to much
People should make sure they turn the necks down so the cutter just kisses the case shoulder . That way you know you have cut all the length of the neck . If you stop short of that you run the risk of creating a ridge just before the neck shoulder junction that upon firing transfers inside the case creating a doughnut .
People who are skim turning for a factory chamber do not need to clean up the whole neck circumference , it's not necessary and it leads to necks that are too thin . Clean it up about 75% and after a few shots it will clean up again a bit more at the same turner setting . Remember that in a factory chamber the more you turn the neck down the greater the gap will be between the loaded round neck diameter and the chamber wall . Which negates some of the benefits especially if the case body is a sloppy fit in the chamber and the round lays on the bottom of the chamber .
This situation can also be corrected with partial neck sizing and using body dies when resizing the body and a separate neck sizing only die , Lee collet or Redding bushing . Bushing dies work better on neck turned brass , collet dies work well on all brass however to shorten the neck size length of a Collet die put a steel washer over the case onto the shell holder . This gives you the partial neck size and a slight second shoulder just above the neck shoulder junction . This never gets sized again by the body die or the neck die and stops the case ever laying in the bottom of the chamber and centers the neck even though you have neck turned it and lost brass thickness . You have reclaimed the neck centering better than before turning and the turning improves neck tension , bullet release , bullet seating accuracy and neck sizing precision . I just gave you one of my accuracy secrets that I developed back in 1967 .
Love your work. Thanks
Much appreciated!
Neck turning seems to work best when the rifle has been 'prepped' for accuracy work. I work with WW1 era rifles and middle to large size game, so half a hair accuracy is not needed. I do have a couple accurate intended rifles I would like to get sub-tiny groups. I have a Forster case length trimmer and neck turner. I confess I haven't used it much and could probably use more practice.
Neck turning, annealing, and proper dies to reduce run-out reduced my groups averages and sizes. I'm consitently averaging . 6" on my Savage.
I think 6" is a pretty good size.
I'd like to see you test your best load using neck turned versus non neck turned brass.
That is my thought, though I am also interested to see if it modifies my velocity graphs that I have been working on as well. So much to test, so little time.
I don't bother turning Norma or Lapua but i do the lesser brands.
Great video and cool Mopar sign!
Mopar or no car!
Interesting and informative video, thank you. Concerning accuracy, you may want to go away from magnum primer and play with seating depth. Thanks again!
There is a whole lot more to neck turning in a factory chamber . Just turning the case down is a small part of what else you need to do , reloading wise to gain the best benefit . Most people do not know how to skim neck turn and partial neck size and then use body dies to size the body of the case to take full advantage . Most of what I see on the internet on this subject is either very basic , missing the whole picture or just plain wrong .
The only time I neck turn brass is if the fired brass neck ID is at or less than bullet OD - then I skin it just to allow minimum clearance. Does wonders for SD numbers.
I'm not a professional reloader, but, all the old timers that have been reloading for years have told me never to use magnum primers on anything other than cases that hold over 65 grains of powder. Also what size inline fabrication mount are you using with your forster co ax?
Whatever, old timers also started their cars with a hand crank too. Science and technology has come a long way since. Way over half of the F-Class Open competitors use CCI 450 primers(Magnum) even for 6MM cases at Mid-range (about 32 to 32.6 grains of powder). These are professional reloaders who compete at the highest level. They do not follow old wives tales, they test for themselves and do what works best. Remember the old timers said to not bump the shoulders, the bolt should have some (measure that) tension when closing the bolt to extend brass life. Ask all those "oldtimers" if they shoot sub 5 inch groups at a thousand yards regularly, or just shoot at deer and coyotes from 100 yards. The world record at 600 yards for a 5 shot group is .282 inches. I have seen very few oldtimers who can shoot that at 100 yards, but you listen to the oldtimers if you want to.
I have recently switched to Fed 215's from Fed 210's, in my Winchester Model 70 Pre-64 30-06, and my Rem 700 Mil Spec 5R .308. I have noticed close E.S. and improved group sizes. Drop your charges by a grain, and build back up if needed. I didn't notice any changes. Liked the video!
I shoot a AR10 SASS 308 20"@ 250yrds.
Magnum or regular CCI primers, 42.5gr of IMR 4064, 168gr Speer BTHP.
I notice no difference and groups are less than .75" @ 250 yards.
@@fergusonlandmanagementweld3696 I have a model 70 post 64. I'm still working up a load. Mind if I ask your bullet and powder?
Hello
In my experience before neck turning
I was shooting 3 to 3/12 inch groups groups
After neck turning 1 to 1.2 inches that’s with my 6.5 Grendel hornady brass cci br4 primers & benchmark propellant
I hate to said it ! but my first test non neck turn was perform wit cci 400 primers
I need to make another test to have a more conclusive test
But that’s all about right!
I like reloading much as like Shooting is really push you at your limits ..
How did you fit 50 grains of powder on today
To get a true test the shooter can not know before he shoots whether the necks have been turned or not. Even with that said there's enough evidence in this video and in the comments to justify the time and expense in turning for precision shooting. The bullet releases from the neck more evenly and (assuming the head space is correct) the neck better fits the chamber and centers the bullet. Thank you for taking the extra time to make this video... very much appreciated.
Appreciate the comment.
Why such a slow powder? I always thought 6.5CM was better suited for something like a 4350 burn rate as where RL26 is a bit closer to 300 WM range. Not saying you're wrong at all. Just curious. I'm trying to learn which is why I watch videos like yours.
The large groups could be from the powder choice? Neck turning seemed to help slightly but a powder change could make a major difference to the group sizes. My rifle hates the Alliant brand
Its a bad combo no doubt. If I repeat I am thinking 147 ELD-M and Reloder 16
@@BoltActionReloading RE26 and 147eld shoots well in my 6.5CM's with longer barrels.
I get some of my most accurate loads with alliant powders. Especially RE26 and RE16. For 338 I use RE33.
Very surprised at your results. I hope you follow up with this testing. I’d like to see more
I plan on revisiting this subject sometime not to far in the future.
This will be next on my to-do list I think. I've been struggling my my hornady brass but I'm not quite ready to pitch the 200 cases I collected from shooting factory loads and buy premium brass. I'll get a dozen .2-.4 moa groups of 5 and then 2 groups with fliers jumping up to .8. Deburring the flash hole cut the occurrence of this by about 75 percent, bedding the recoil lug of my accustock cut that remaining quarter by half but there's still something else going on.
Did u shoot brass in the gun before you shot the the unturned neck because if you didn't the brass was new and was not formed to the chamber which would have changed the outcome on the test just saying!!
Do you have a run out gauge? I'm wondering if crushing a few of your cases in the collet die before full length sizing them would help straighten them out if neck turning them actually helped that much.
Awesome video. I have been thinking about getting something to do neck turning but haven’t made my mind up on which brand to buy. Do you have any other brands you’re familiar with ?
Depends on how much you think you will turn. If the quantities are low a K and N manual kit would work fine probably. If you want quality and quantity 21st century reloading makes some very high quality equipment.
Bolt Action Reloading ok thanks I’ll check them out
I have K+M. Very happy with it, and they have fixed many issues I've had over the years due to wear and stripped screws (not from their products). Good people!
Have you ever consider that maybe it’s time for a barrel upgrade on your Ruger RPR maybe that rifle is not capable of smaller groups
I have shot some groups .5 - .6 MOA with other projectiles, which as a shooter is probably what I am capable of. My round count isn't at 2k yet and I really haven't seen a velocity drop. I am pretty sure by barrel just doesn't like the 130 RDF. I need to see if it can shoot with a different COAL bu who knows.
Nice video and I admire your courage in putting up such bad numbers. I'd wait until you are sub 1/2 MOA and then look to differences. There are more things wrong or right than neck tuning at play here. I did not see anything about neck tension and how far off the lands, etc? Not to put you down but my neighbor shoots 1/2 MOA all day long with handloads in his 6.5 Creed RPR. He does no neck turning BTW. Have you thought about an EC Barrel Tuner? Might try one and see if your groups improve. Good luck!
Hi George, I did 2 videos on this subject and one I did to show that it had some improvement on a OK load and then a really Bad load to show that it wasn't a magic fix all. I don't pick who TH-cam shows which too so I get this a lot more than you might think. I thought it was funny that I still saw improvement but it certainly doesn't fix a bad load was what I was trying to get through on the video. A barrel tuner isn't going to fix this combo. I may try one when I can test it objectively. This is a much better example of the performance that I have been able to get. th-cam.com/video/45rtyfwPRSw/w-d-xo.html
Those SD values are pretty bad as are the groups. 6.5 in general should give you a pretty good group. I would go to a regular large rifle primer and a different powder to see if that helps. Although, this was over a year ago, so you probably already got it handled.
Neck turning shouldn't be viewed as a "fix all." Neck turning is most effective when using a ft/lb gage when seating. Then sort them according to seating ft.lbs. It also works better using an expander mandrel last, to uniform your case neck tension. LE Wilson makes a special die for this, as does Sinclair + 21st Century shooting.
B4 this process, it helps to find the node of your rifle(seating several bullets 0.003" apart until you find a very tight group). Most seat long 1st and work to the shorter length COAL.
I like seating short and stepping up in length. This way when I find my sweet spot, all I have to do is shorten COAL on the rest as opposed to using a bullet puller.
what program are they using to measure the target groups?
I expect the amount of ballistic improvement will be proportionate to the quality of the brass. The worst brass will show the most improvement, but perfectly concentric brass not so much.
Try a Lee neck collet die. It will make the case neck the same thickness all around and won't shave any brass.
How often do you turn you necks... every time you reload?
Usually only one time if you do it at all
Are you loading a 6-5 Creedmoor
Hi Mark, I understand that you are concerned about the data in this test. I would not expect anyone to trust a random person on the internet but hopefully I can walk through a couple things that you can certainly verify independently. I stated at 1:00 minute in that the data for the test is based from Bergers website. You can Google "Berger load data 135 6.5 creedmoor" and they list online the load data for the 135 CH with a max charge of 49.8 gr. The start load is 45.0 gr for RL-26. I understand that you are concerned about using magnum primers. This is something I have tested on this channel quite frequently. I just did a test with 223 on 9 different primers (some are magnum primers) and the pressure data is very similar primer to primer th-cam.com/video/a69VBkT_Mxo/w-d-xo.html. As with any test you start low and work up. I know the grain weights seem very large for 6.5 CM but that is what berger lists for the 135 CH. If you run these numbers in Quick load the max case pressure is 60358 psi at 50grs, @47.4 gr the pressure is 49055. During the test I saw no concerning pressure signs on the brass of heavy bolt handle that indicated anything concerning. I am not sure if this will address your concerns or not. (also it is not an advised practice to take others load data without validating it yourself) You also asked about how to even fit that much powder, with a drop tube. I have a video on it here if you are interested: th-cam.com/video/sc5S8gub30g/w-d-xo.html I use it for any loads that are somewhat compressed and it works very well.
BAR
I'd heard those RDFs just don't shoot well. Thanks for the work up.
I am sure that someone will get them to work, it just isn't me. Thanks for commenting!
I didn’t have no luck in a 243 with a match barrel. Tried different powders and bullet depth and just would not shoot, but my cousin 6.5 creed would print one hole at 100 yards.
All antidotal. It being a different day can make that much difference. Much more testing would be required.
I loved video but try h4350 142 matchking 41.7 .oo8 out
Good video, Good test, and it looks promising for sure, more testing with loads/projectiles that had good prior results will show more benefits or not in the neck turning process.
I agree, but I really am interested to see if some of my velocity graphs change based on this as well.
Bolt Action Reloading, I'd think several factors may change, and will possibly create other rabbit holes to consider jumping into, which is one of the things I enjoy about reloading, a simple 5 degree change or the cartilage sitting in a warm or hot chamber for a few seconds longer etc all can play on the end result.
Definitely not a hobby with a finite end result, making for more interesting/different results.
Keep it up👍
2 moa tighter after only neck turning? That doesn't make any sense at all. Guys out there don't even bother doing it and still plug 1500 yard+ shots. 3moa would be ridiculous spread that that range. Something else was changed. Whether you knew it or not.
I would have to try to develop a load for shooting that poorly, assuming I continue to put effort in the fundamentals behind the trigger. I wonder if something isn’t loose on the rifle, or if there isn’t a bad spot in the barrel/crown.
Turning necks only adds a little consistency to neck tension. I’ve had some of my best groups with crimped necks in a rifle, but the crimp was uniform and consistent on all rounds.
Too many unknowns not covered in this video to know what the culprit was, but I doubt neck tension was a major factor. Should have loaded identical charge weights for turned vs unturned, shot on the same outing. Environmental factors could have “tightened” something up on the rifle since the previous groupings were shot.
@@christopherfreeman3095 plenty of other factors to consider including shooter error. but i have a hard time buying that big of a spread just on neck turning. i don't turn my necks and I shoot sub .5moa out of a factory Remington barrel. something ain't right
Just curious how are you getting your estimated velocity?
From the 130 eld test I ran on this powder. I mentioned it in the video that I have the tag to from last week.
Would neck turning help on a factory rifle. Ruger m77 mk2 223 rem ?
In theory, it should help on any rifle (provided it is not a total POS). Everything about reloading is achieving consistency. If the bullet sits in a neck that is more concentric, the bullet will hit the lands more consistently. So, in theory, accuracy should improve no matter what gun you are using.
The RDF is the weak link in the test.
Are they junk? I've almost picked them up a few times but I haven't seen anything better than barely sorta acceptable from guys I trust. You'd think Nosler would be able to compete, they make some great stuff.
Yea, not gonna turn my Hornady brass anytime soon, it measures .0003" difference, worst case might be .0007"(literally a few out of a hundred), better overall than Lapua it looks like, and getting way better accuracy than what you're getting from your video results.
@Kilgore Kilgore No, it's 3 10,000.(.0003") It'd be some awfully crappy brass if one side measured .014" and the other side of the neck measured .017", Hornady brass is way better than you might think. I've measured enough of it to know. lol
What in the world are you doing? 1) RL 26 is for bottleneck magnum cases, not modest capacity cases like the 6.5 mm Creedmoor. The Nosler website/manual doesn't even list a RL 26 load for that cartridge. What would be the point? Nosler, instead, uses the faster RL 15 and RL 17, that are more suitable for modest capacity cases.
2) If a gun is shooting 3" groups, there's something drastically wrong either with the barrel or your hand loading techniques. Correct that problem first.
3) SAAMI (factory size) chambers are usually .005" to .0006" larger than unfired or full length resized case to ensure reliable feeding. Neck turning cartridges with non-custom/ factory chambers is usually counterproductive because it gives the case neck and hence bullet more room to misalign in the chamber after ignition. Case neck turning is generally only productive with tighter custom chambers.
4) Having said that, there are occasional exceptions: Neck turning on my Weatherby calibers with custom barrels (but with factory barrels) failed to produce any increase in accuracy. For example, my 26" Shilen barrelled 270 Weatherby Mag remained at .6 moa with 150 grain Nosler partitions, and 1.0 moa with 130 grain Partitions. However, my custom barrelled 28" 300 REM, which already had lots of freebore, shot consistently tighter groups after neck turning.
Hi Will, Let me try and attack these in order.
First you ask "What in the world are you doing?" I am running a reloading channel and testing conventional ideas on how people tell me how I should be reloading. I run tests and show my results good or bad so that we can all learn something maybe.
1. RL-26 is the incorrect powder here, but it worked fantastic with the Berger 135 classic hunter. I had to give it a try. Data here: www.bergerbullets.com/pdf/6.5-Creedmoor-135gr.pdf If I see now that Nosler finally updated their data online to include the RDF projectiles. The 140 RDF was out much longer than a year and they updated nothing. And with a quick review of a couple other cartridges I still don't see any RL 16, RL 26, or RL 23 anywhere in the Nosler data. Not going to wait for Nosler to catch up before I try them out. Its at least nice to see that the changed the COAL on the 140RDF on their data since when I emailed Nosler about it they told me 2.775".
2. While I try to appreciate peoples opinion, stating that the gun is broken or I don't know how to reload is a bit over the top here. If your new here I encourage you to check out some of the other videos I have made on the channel. Many with far smaller than MOA groups with this rifle and with the same hand loading process and equipment. This bullet (130RDF) like its big brother (140RDF) seem to be very sensitive to jump, both have set records on my channel with the worst groups I have shot with any projectile.
3. I really don't have anything to comment on here, I agree saami chambers are larger than custom (benchrest) I am doing my own testing here to determine this for myself. Benchrest typically require neck turning to get brass to chamber, its not done to improve performance as much as it is done out of necessity to chamber a round.
4. I get the impression that you feel I am turning these necks further than I am. I am only turning the necks to even them out. My final thickness was very close to .0127", and there were still very small areas that were not contacted by the cutter. Trying to achieve more consistent neck tension is my goal, I am certainly not neck turning for fun, only to determine if it is worth the time spent. In this case it was.
BAR
I know people that shoot 6.5 CM with a 26 inch barrel and use RE26 and 140-147gr bullets for competition. If you run it through Quickload you'll be able to see % of powder burn. For 22 inch barrel I use RE16 though.
I see the benifits here, is this the factor of improved accuracy with all brands of brass? Do you have to turn every time?
Richard Tibbetts neck turning won't make bad brass good. Once it's done you don't have to do it again.
C.o.a.l probably makes the most difference
I think they both contribute, but for me its too early to tell. I do think this was a major improvement.
It appears to me the test rifle may have a bad barrel.
No this barrel was well capable of 1/2 to 3/4 MOA groups on the regular. This test was to go over the idea that neck turning wasn't going to be a magic fix for a projectile and barrel combination that just don't work well. I have not found a combo for this particular projectile that is worth testing.
Thats something. What about weighing the cases?
I have done this periodically through other testing. I really feel if you are sorting brass removing gross outliers its effective but sorting the brass and loading it any further (sorting for exact case weight) hasn't seemed to shift my results nearly as drastically as this.
Bolt Action Reloading must be a neck tension thing. Unless the rifle shot poorly with factory loads too.
I weight sort my brass. Hornady has a huge variance in weight per bag of brass, some as much as 6 grains. 1 grain difference in brass weight = 1 grain of powder, which can really throw you off your node. I lot sort all my brass in 1 grain lots...ie 140-140.9.....141-141.9 been doing this for years...by the way i never turn my necks.
Reuben Gullackson, I've done some extensive testing of several calibers, 5.56, .243win & 300 win mag. I've found that virtually everything I've tested shows that brass weight has a value equivalent of .1gr powder to 2.0 brass weight, no matter what the caliber. I've applied this to everything I load which requires me to make up flow charts for everything I load and though it takes more time my # 1,2,3,4 etc. load of a certain powder with the same weight bullet," regardless of case weight" does produce extremely accurate ammo which gives me quite an edge in competition. It also throws out the worry of, is this load the same or how much does it very from that other batch of ammo with a different case weight? It's a concern I don't have. I think neck turning helps accuracy a lot. I often get an S.D. in most of my tested ammo in the teens to single digits, even with the 300 WM.
I don't think that comparing single 5-shot groups is a sound basis for any statistical analysis. Also, quoting group sizes with a value in the thousandths position implies a measurement capability that likely does not exist.
Well mike you have to look at anything and decide for yourself, like anything in life. I loaded the test and published my results. The software I use to measure the groups with the picture gave the measurements, I just tried to make it easy to see. Do your own test make your video and publish the results so people can see how much smarter you are.
You had a great idea and clearly put alot of thought into this video. This is the first of your videos ive watched and i probably would have subscribed but.....
I cant for the life of me figure out how you could have possibly thought it was a good idea to use such a horrible load as an example. I mean this video is aimed at people striving for precision reloading. Yes i agree your loads with turned brass were night and day better but still worse than factory hornady eldm's out of a $600 savage rifle.. to me it brings more questions than answers. Seeing the number of videos you put out and the effort you put into them you obviously care about the quality of your content
I would love to see this repeated with another proven load even a load workup of a few charge weights like this one but something that atleast shoots better than or equal to factory ammo with a quality rifle.
I wasnt done typing when i accidentally submitted before getting to say that i meant no disrespect at all and was only trying to offer some constructive criticism. I respect the time and effort you put into this video i just think using that load combination was a horrible idea. Yes it produced a huge improvement but also a lot of questions. Most considering neck turning are probably to the point where they are looking to shave even a tenth or two off their 100yd groups after covering all the basics to get them to sub moa averages... IMHO This video would have been way more impressive bringing a 1.00" group to a 0.80" group even averaging 0.10" to 0.20" improvement across the board than cutting a 3in group in half.
Looking forward to future videos keep it up.
Hi Strato Caster, I would agree had I not done 2 other videos on the subject that this would seem odd. Here is a better shooting combo. th-cam.com/video/ktDXSv1brKc/w-d-xo.html
I was trying possibly too hard to illustrate that its not a miracle worker. People unfortunately get their hears set on a particular projectile and they spend a ton of effort (like neck turning) to fix it. It helps but its not going to change your life. You never know what youtube is serving when and if you saw these out of order I can see why you would be confused. I hope you consider subscribing and I always appreciate good feedback. Thanks for not going crazy in the comments.
BAR
I did this one as well: th-cam.com/video/PYwtfrMtKDE/w-d-xo.html Depends how deep you want to go down the rabbit hole.
BAR
The only reason to neck turn is if it does not chamber.
You talk so fast shifting graphs, I can't tell what your pointing out. Can you make the data and result clearer?
Are you sure the ammo is the issue? How are you firing these groups, I'm guessing off a bipod?
Since the non-turned neck loads are basically the worst groups the rifle has ever shot and with other ammo I have had many loads able to hold 3/4 MOA or better I am very confident that the issue is 95% the ammo. It doesn't help that looking back this is just not the best powder choice and having large statistical differences probably didn't help any. As well as I am not the only one that has has issues trying to get these to work. forum.snipershide.com/threads/6-5-creedmoor-130-rdf.6873456/
The reason I asked was it seems there was a lot of horizontal or vertical stringing instead of a radial pattern. Anyway, good luck.....
For my conclusions I am basing this solely on group size change. No one in the right mind would tell you that should neck turn to reduce your ES from 86 to 70. They would tell you to try a different powder. (and that is what is needed here) The charge of RL-26 in this case is probably not burned completely before the bullet exists the barrel and is causing the erratic velocity performance. (if you check this with quickload you could know for sure) My conclusion are solely related to group size improvements. This is very simply not the right powder for this combo.
You assume that these are different days and different conditions they are not. They were reloaded on the same day at the same time. These loads we shot on February 27, 2018 54°F 35%RH DALT of 775ft. These cases came from the same identical lot of Hornady Brass, the same number of firings, the only difference is 25 pcs were neck turned and 25 were left the same for the control group. Your accusations are very unfounded.
If you would like to see me turn the neck on these cases here if the video where I did it:
th-cam.com/video/aJDwZlJGltQ/w-d-xo.html I am not so silly as to argue desired case neck thickness. My goal was to remove as little material as possible so the contact with the blade was at least ~80% of the circumference of the case and maintain the same neck thickness across the lot. Hornady brass is far from perfect when it comes to case neck uniformity. If I remember correctly my finished turned dimension is about .0127" on these cases, if you really care that much. Keep in mind the resolution of my case neck turner is .0005", I don't believe that you can control this to .0001" if you remove the detent, but your experience may vary. For now this is what I do until I learn to do it better.
This bullet construction requires that the bullet be very far away from the lands in my rifle. If I was .010" off the lands I would barely have the bullet in the case. (irresponsible reloading IMO) This requires the bullet to have significant jump to the lands. Bullets with very High BC are prone to being sensitive to this. I feel that the case having the more even on all sides neck tension allowed the bullet to release more uniformly from the case so it entered the lands more consistently. Since the top load used is compressed there was probably a detriment to the concentricity to the loaded rounds and caused that top charge groups to open up more than the other ones.
Like I mentioned this is not the best powder choice for this combo. I was hoping to find something with RL-26 since I had good luck with the Berger 135 Classic hunter bullets but it didn't happen. My velocity curve on the 130 ELD-M in this video: th-cam.com/video/Pd_a9GGBBw8/w-d-xo.html demonstrates some erratic behavior in velocity as well so this really shouldn't be a shocker that the SD/ES info isn't good in this load. I have plan to revisit this testing again with a different combo but I haven't cycled around to it yet.
In all, I really don't care what you think, these are my results. I don't need anyone to agree with them or not. It's the great thing about reloading you can load and do whatever you think will work best for you. With any reasonable ammo I have had no trouble keeping my groups to 1 MOA in this rifle. (some bullets work better than others) If you have different information that is actually based on FACTS and not your speculation or misconceived interpretation of my information try referencing that.
Do yourself a favor, stop being this guy: dilbert.com/strip/2015-06-07
BAR
Bolt Action Reloading I have to say that the ES were pretty bad, but you still showed a difference in neck turning ether way. Yea you need a different powder for sure, 26 is a very good powder, but not in this cartridge. Works great in my custom build 300 Win Mag, but never worked good in 243 or 6.5 for me. I think your right, powder definitely not burning up, if you had a 32 inch barrel maybe! Lol. Like seeing people make more videos testing this stuff instead of just giving opinions, thank you. Just my experience an two cents. Thanks on videos an good luck.
How about trying large rifle primers, not magnum?
I have done some testing and found typically that LRMs do better. th-cam.com/video/ypI6D-i57uk/w-d-xo.html
@@BoltActionReloading I noticed a fair bit of vertical dispersion in at least some of your groups. I read, but never confirmed, that a change in primer will help with that. Any thoughts on that theory?
Those are awful numbers. Brass? I get better numbers from fresh brass. Lapua. I understand the testing but starts are not good. Shot 1/8th MOA with new brass just testing. Flash hole chamfer is important too. I think you’ll find annealing (factory or not, brass matrix) will drastically improve numbers. Brass, brass, brass. Consistency, consistency, consistency. Brass, powder selection by what the barrel likes. Slow, slower, slowest. Hot can produce results too. Twist versus bullet weight versus flat engagement versus ogive. Good bullets and brass make a huge difference. Blah, blah, blah...lol.
I anneal but don't turn the necks and get way better groups than this, But stick with Hornady and Sierra bullets
Its a bad combo, no doubt. I m not recommending it, however I was fascinated by how much better the groups were though.
If your shooting 3 inch groups you need to fix whatever is wrong with the rifle first
Rifle isn't broke, with the 140 ELD it can shoot .75 MOA groups all day. When I ran this test on them there wasn't a significant change. The point was it didn't seem to improve a good load much, would it improve a poor performing combination measurably.
Bolt Action Reloading neck tension isn't as important as most reloaders think. Concentricity on the other hand is more important than most think.
When most reloaders turn necks it is to fit a chamber that centers the bullet in the bore.
On a factory chamber with a loose neck turning the necks makes the condition even worse as it allows the ejector to hold the bullet offset of the bore more pronounced.
The only time a loose neck is beneficial is when shooting borerider bullets that self align into the bore.
Na, something else changed. Neck turning doesn’t buy that much.
No surprise in improving group size with low quality brass by neck turning. Hornady brass is terrible in every caliber I have tested. I switched to Lapua or when it is not available I try PPU for every cartridge possible and get 1/2 MOA groups with a variety of powders with non match grade standard production quality rifles. Nosler Bullets are good for hunting, not good for match or target shooting. I use Sierra Match King and Hornady AMAX or ELD bullets for match or target loads. Reloder 26 is great and it works in many different cartridges I have tested such as 6.5 Swedish Mauser, 7x57 Mauser, 303 British, 7.5 Swiss, 7.62x54R, 308 Win, 300 Win Mag, and 6.5 Creedmore. I have been reloading pistol, rifle, and shotgun for only 40 years and still learning.
I didn't expect such a drastic change through. I have got reasonable groups from this brass, but was really surprised by the improvement. Still not a good load, but interesting for me anyway.
Love to show you how bad my Hornady 6 Creedmoor brass shoots.
Not surprised Nosler RDF's are pretty horrible.
Does it wear out the brass faster?
I am not anticipating that it will be significant since the typical failure of this cartridge is loose primer pockets, however if you go to far it can certainly cause problems and shorten life.
Used to shoot benchrest neck turning makes a huge difference I do it all the time never stopped
If you don't anneal then I would say the potential for cracked necks would be greater. Like BAR said, loose primer pockets is what usually sends Hornady brass to the scrap bin.
Great info.🇺🇸
Why would I take anyone seriously who has a sign on the wall with balls to put Chrysler and engineering in the same sentence.
Nobody can really know what you are saying as you talk to fast.
I would throw everything including your press and rifle away and start fresh. 3 moa or 2 moa groups are garbage.
Hi Mike, I am obviously not impressed with 2-3 MOA groups as well, the point of the video is that these bullets have traditionally shot very poorly in my rifle and did the NT process improve that, which I do believe that it did. As for my rifle and press I think I will keep them since with other combinations I have been able to achieve 1/2 to 3/4 MOA groups very regularly, just not with this projectile.
@@BoltActionReloading You never know what'll happen until you try it.