Neck Turning Brass with the Hornady Neck Turning Tool
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 มี.ค. 2018
- In this video I demonstrate Neck Turning brass with the Hornady Neck Turning Tool. We turn the necks if some Hornady 6.5 creedmoor brass after annealing it and show some difficulties that I have had along the way. This operation can be a optional step to make your necks as concentric as possible, or even mandatory for rifles with special cut chambers. In this case we are going to see if this step will improve the consistency of our reloads.
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Thank you for this demonstration sir !
Reloading for a bolt rifle is a lot of work and I’m not adding another step, I’m happy with my process and results! So thank you for being an honest very smart guy…
I'm a machinist. Just an FYI- for people not familiar with cutting operations (this is basically a mini lathe), lighter cuts + faster speed will give you a finer finish. The more material you cut in a single pass, you'll have to move slower, giving you a rougher finish
Funny my cutter was like his first one I honed it on my wet stone and made it perfect ! I didn't even think about it at the time. Nice video
Nicely done. The most exciting thing you mention is a comparison between turned and unturned brass. It'll be interesting to see that. Things like weight sorting brass and turning necks sound good, but actually doing a comparison side by side would be priceless. It's been 5ish years since you posted this video, I'm going to look for the comparison video you teased here. Thank you for this video.
Thanks for the tip at the end of the video. Just got my neck trimmer and it is doing the exact same thing.
I will be very interested in the results. Thanks for the information.
Glad you enjoyed it. My first comparison is the 130 rdf.
Thanks for the video. Learned something new!
Glad you enjoyed it.
Video posted Mar 2018, it is now June 2020. But not much has changed and that's good. I truly appreciate the "This is the way I do it and it's not wrong and if you feel that the way you do it works for you then that way is not wrong either".... So thanks for that and I honestly feel that it is people that remind others of this help us all to have a "More Better" internet experience. It's really just about learning respect for others.
So I totally understand your "detail-ness" in first cleaning, annealing, neck sizing and then concentricity and neck turning. It's why I reload....
Reloading to me is a perfection of the art.... my policy is, if I am going to do it, it's the challenge of doing it 100% perfection, science.
My point is, thanks for showing the "perfect" way to do it correct and not the slip shot do it the easy fast way just to get it done. Perfectionism is an art. Thanks.
Thank you for the comment, and glad you see my prospective!
Thanks for info, great video.
I just bought one. Thank you for the introduction to the topic. Please let me know of nay other video related to this topic. Thanks. Ernesto
I appreciate the finer adjustment range of the 21st Century tool, pretty amazing what 3 times the cost buys you! The Hornady tool will be perfectly fine (when it arrives) for my budget, and my need.
It seems the "floating" 21st system has convinced alot of people it's needed. How is it possible, that a lathe, turns very concentric stuff with out a floating head ?
Yeah
Great video.!
I like the point about firing brass several times causing it be more concentric. It stands to reason as the brass flows forward and requires trimming it would also be forming to your chamber.
the thickness is almost perfect on a fired case. However... sizing distorts thickness. Shoulder turning is necessary if the bullet is seated below the shoulder. Donuts form at shoulder/neck junction during sizing.
Good review, I too follow f-class John and have learned much about neck tension which is the end goal of neck turning. He actually Annealing after turning necks and he turns necks each and every time. He also has a different tool for each caliber because that is in fact the biggest pain of the hornady tool is setting it up. Reasoning to annealing after turning is because he doesn’t want to cut brass at its softest state. My numbers have true luck improved by following his process, even though it’s probably not practical for all we are in the middle of this virus crud and think most of us have time.
I've never heard of turning necks everytime. I have heard of trimming the necks everytime. Some people are confusing trimming and turning. Neck wall thickness should not change from firing. The reason we turn the necks is because it comes from the manufacturer with inconsistent neck thickness, not from firing.
As for when you turn, it don't make any difference. These guys anneal everytime so the brass never gets a chance to get work hardened. But hey, if your superstitious, keep doing it the way you want. I'm just wanting the facts to be known for future readers.
@@toddscholze6168 you are right the thickness doesn’t change but the brass is fluid and stretches. As simple as this the amount you are trimming off the end is the same amount that has migrated from shoulder into the base of the neck. You want to chase consistent sd numbers I assure you this helps. Neck tension is everything. Check out f class John. His videos go into this in depth. Not knocking anyone else’s process but I’ll implement the practices of world class shooters over just what needs to be done.
@@toddscholze6168 and lastly the gauges don’t lie.
I wonder if this tool could be setup for case length trimming and beveling as well.
Great info..did not know that much about it. Thanks
Glad you got something out of it. Thanks for commenting.
Good tip that this tool works only with Hornady shell holders and Hornady shell holders due not come with this tool.
Good tip that the case neck diameter should be 0.002" less than bullet diameter to fit tightly for neck turning.
Hello buddy, thanks for sharing looking like a good piece of kit. ATB
Buy Lapua brass used on my x47 on 2010 build and use it in 222, 22-250 also. It is more expensive but it's worth every penny, sub moa on these three rifles, just got some in for 243, good video
Thank you
Thanks for making this video. More precision in my reloads is something I’m getting into. I like what was shown a said here. Appreciate the honesty. I’m very curious about that 21st century turner. Got a video on that one? Thanks again for what you do
Hi Robert, I have not tried the turner from 21st century but not as excited for neck turning as I ounce was. I think it's a lot of effort for 2% more performance. (Unless you have to turn your brass to get it to fit.) For me it was more of spend a lot of time on cheaper brass or buy premium brass and forget about it. I chose the latter. Best of luck!
I've used the Hornady and wasn't real happy with the consistency in turning. I prefer hand turning with the RCBS since it's a one-time operation. I felt the RCBS neck turning tool is easier to feel and see the change occur compared to the Hornady. I just don't believe a machine-type neck turning tool can maintain the consistency and quality control as hand turning it does. 21st Century does make an amazing tool and I think it is far superior to Hornady's.
Is there really any performance gain to doing this? Seems like a lot of work for very little pay-off
I would highly recommend just going with high quality brass to start with if you can afford it.
On my Hornady neck turning tool, I actually had to cut out paper shims to put under the cutter. There is a space or a void in between the cutter body and the actual frame. This caused movement or wobbling. I had to remedy this by using g the shims.
I am new to the neck turning aspect of reloading - question - once you turn the neck, is there a need to ever turn it again??? Thank you for your time.
I bought one of these and was disjointed in the out of round I was getting in just the case holding shaft. It seem to wobble way to much to create concentric turned necks. I felt it should of been much more precise like a case trimmer. Most case trimmers have very little wobble in the turning shaft. Mine is setting in the closet taking up space now. I'm looking into the RCBS one that attaches to the case trimmer. It would of been nice to see the difference between the unturned and turned cases for concentric and see how they came out for a better representation of the product.
After reading comments, guys get a grip on decency. We are all Reloaders and each of us want the best result so don’t beat up on the messenger. This video is a good video to inform neck turning can improve accuracy, chamber fit. It will not guarantee your groups are going to be tighter as there are many factors in the reloading process that effects accuracy, one of which is the shooter. Ever been on a firing line in the Army, lots of varied results there for sure, can’t blame all of it on the weapon. Let’s all play nice with the other kids.
I've read that case neck irregularities are an indication that the case has defects throughout and the benefits of neck turning are undone after a few firings. I'm interested to see if your findings are consistent with this theory.
I think there are a lot of misconceptions about this topic. Hopefully we will all learn something.
PMA makes neck turning lubricant. Works very well.
Thanks for the tip. I might have to give it a try
Good video. I'm very interested to see if your groups will tighten up after neck turning.
More than I imagined. th-cam.com/video/KK_44sDl2m0/w-d-xo.html
Do you shave down the thickness of the wall for accuracy? How do you know when you need to trim the neck?
Hello, if you decide to turn case necks, you could be trying to make your brass more consistent. It may surprise you how the thickness is different from case to case. Some people have match chambers that require this, but in this case you want consistent necks so that the bullet release is more repeatable and maybe that the velocities may be more consistent. YMMV
I just received my trimmer and have exactly the same problem with both cutters supplied also have alignment problems to the mandrel.
Did they just replace the cutting bit or the complete cutter head?
What plate did you use to fit the Hornady neck turner from inline fabrication for the 4 inch micro quick change I want to mount the neck turner and the concentricity tool on separate plates and swap between one micro base.
If you go here: inlinefabrication.com/collections/quick-change-press-mounting-system/products/quick-change-system-top-plates you can select it and add to cart. If you have any questions just contact Dan. He is great.
Good vid! More to it than I thought..I recently bought a new set..
My first shots experimenting with this taught me very quickly that there was much more I needed to pay attention to. I really think that frequently people don't see improvement with some things simply because they don't enough attention to to what they are doing. Doing it poorly is very easy in this case.
Can't you take the detent out and have a finer adjustment range?
@Both Action Reloading Have you looked at reaming brass instead of neck turning? I am curious about opinions on reaming inside vs neck turning outside and info about the "donuts" on the inside that reaming can take care of.
Hi Eric, I really havent ran into this issue. I have read about this in the 243 win. Only on a case that has this issue would I think about turning the inside and not the outside. I use a mandrel to set my final neck diameter and I have had no instance to worry about it.
I saw an old hand at long-range hunting talk about this once. He said he would recommend never touching the inside of the case neck with anything other than a very, very light chamfer.
You could remove the detent ball and get ur .0001”. You might have to come up with a “lock” ie, setscrew to keep it in position.
Would you say that is tool would help when making 600 to 700 yard shots with a 6.5 creedmore. I currently shoot Hornady super performance rounds and wondering if I can hit that mark with reloads.
I would get familiar with reloading first before I worried about neck turning. If your missing on vertical it certainly is possible to beat factory that is for sure however I would try some of the 140 ELD-M match ammo first as it has a much higher ballistic coefficient and they work well in a lot of combinations. Best of Luck.
I have the same issue blade not seating parallel in respect to the brass. 3 o clock is touching and nine is off by 2 or .003. Contacted Hornady and they told me it needs to be that way otherwise blade leaves shatter marks and wont cut uniform. I spoke to two different CS both said same thing.
The detent screw for the cutter can be removed to make the adjustments from .0005 clicks to infinite - according to Hornady.
That is what hornady says, but trusting it to be consistent when you set it I don't really. It is a OK tool and .005 resolution is close enough to what you need. I would never recommend taking the detent out but that is just me.
Do you have to use a drill? Does it come with a handle to use?
I don't think you get a handle I guess you could put a socket on it if you wanted to.
Sorry to detract from your subject, but I noticed you have an Inline Fabrication mount for your Hornady neck trimmer - was this a special request or am I missing this on the Inline Fab website. BTW, nice video series.
No issue at all. Check out this link: inlinefabrication.com/collections/quick-change-press-mounting-system/products/quick-change-system-top-plates?variant=927196905 you want to select #37 from the pull down.
Really outstanding content. I think I saw something where the detent ball could be removed?
Yes it can, but I don't see this buying much but possibly making people feel better. Not sure what videos you have or haven't seen yet but I did some recent info about the seating force consistency. th-cam.com/video/vjbeH6rA3E0/w-d-xo.html
If you remove the detente ball and spring on the micrometer adjustment you can dial in anything you wish.
Great video! I bought a hornady LnL about a month ago and am having the same frustrations you spoke of in the beginning. My bit/cutter is crooked just like the photo you showed. Did hornady replace your entire cutter head, or just the bit? Also, what is your concintricity guage saying after you turn your necks?
Hornady just sent a new bit. I think it still has a touch of movement in it. I wanted to fire form them, and clean them again and then check. I have shot the results and I think they are interesting.
Mine came with an extra bit, I will try swapping it out tomorrow. Also, not sure if you are aware, but if you unscrew the detent retaining screw, it will give you infinite adjustment on your cutter. Not exactly. 00010, but it might help. Thanks for the reply. Been watching your videos for a very long time, big fan!
Not sure if this is the machine I was searching for, I too use a lot of 6.5 creedmoor and was looking for something to neck down used 308 brass to 6.5 and reload with 6.5 bullets as 308 casing are abundant and cheap.
If money is less of an object., the 21st century reloading one is what I would pick
You can back the detent ball off and do any adjustment you wish.
I bought this Hornady tool. First thing I did was to dull the angle on the cutter. No one wants to cut into the neck, so I wonder why that angle is sharp to begin with. I used a Dremel carefully to dull that angle and round off that dulling across the angle to the actual cutting edge that you want to do the cutting. Why Hornady hasn't figured this out, I don't know. I also went to Ace Hardware to find a similar return spring that is about 1/4 the compression. And use a flex-extension in your drill so that you're not stressing the main shaft in the tool that you're turning. I use motor oil to lube this tool. Motor oil has staying power and is made for much harsher environments.
I do like this tool. It just takes some common-sense adjustments to make it easier to use. That's my two cents.
I got better results by NOT using a drill to turn the brass. I removed the spring and used a 1/4" wrench and there was no wiggle induced by the drill. TRY IT! You'll like it!
I want to see the difference it makes in bullet grouping
I agree on almost everything you said save for the neck needing to be concentric in neck wall thickness prior to neck turning. The whole point to neck turning is to MAKE the neck wall thickness the same. So what IS paramount is to make sure your sized brass neck inside diameter is correct for the mandrel, and that the neck is on centerline of the brass. The neck wall thickness will be cut to be the same thickness through the neck turning regardless of the wall thickness being the same or thicker on one side.
Edit: To make neck turning fully worth it, the WHOLE neck should be cut so that all of the necks are cut to just past the thinnest portion, there should not be any portions uncut.
Thank you for the reply. The only issue with cutting everything is then the entire lot will need to be the minimum of the worst piece. I wonder if throwing away bad outliers is a better option, as we all know some brass is better about this than others. I am just starting to test Neck Turning so we should get some good info after a while I hope.
Bolt Action Reloading that is true, but, that is what I'm looking for, to make the whole lot of brass as identical as possible. In my opinion, if not doing the whole neck and leaving any amount of variance, well, there was no need to do any of it if not doing all of it.
The Hornady case neck trimmer is a good starter unit, but the graduations are too large. I turn case necks to just barely skim the thinnest portion on the thinnest piece and then use a full length bushing size die to hold concentricity after that.
I run the Sinclair trimmer/cutter for neck turning brass, they have considerably finer adjustments and I've found the runout to be basically nonexistent on their hardware, but that comes at a cost obviously.
I do not disagree. I feel its a starter unit at this point, but is it good enough right? I think that is what a lot of people want to know. I didn't want to turn the hornady case necks any more than I did. I really think that had I done more research that I would have went with the 21st century unit. Do you have a motorized option with the Sinclair? If so I didn't see it. Feel free to drop a link as I would like to check it out.
Bolt Action Reloading I use this adapter in my cordless drill to hold the cases, www.brownells.com/reloading/case-preparation/neck-turning/neck-turning-accessories/deluxe-caseholder-and-driver-set-prod45124.aspx
And the neck turning tool I clamp in my padded vice, works great and makes fast, repeatable work of my neck turning when needed.
@@jimhans1 Getting a great deal out of this discussion guys. Thanks. I have been debating and heavily looking at starting neck turning and am researching Forester, this Hornady tool, K&M, and 21st Century but haven't really looked at Sinclair yet until this post. I have tried calling several of these companies with two calls into 21st Century and haven't heard back from him as of yet. I am putting everything into a spreadsheet in terms of cost of a complete system to compare apples to apples of the different companies to include extra mandrels to do my four calibers. Forester was helpful at this and it took a 25 minute call to price it all out for me along with some of their other tools (case trimmer which I already have from Wilson and primer pocket reamer). I am not knew to handloading by any means and yet I still find all of the websites heavily lacking in information to tell the consumer what is totally needed for order to do multiple calibers.
I'm shooting 1.25" groups @ 100 yards i'm watching this in the hopes i can take .75" off my groups.
I'm shooting a .308 Ruger American hunter 20" barrel.
I wonder if i should find the lands im sure my chamber is big
I dont understand why the outside of the neck matters, surely its the condition and dimensions of the inside of the neck that is important? Also, does this operation not lead to splitting?
Having variations in neck thickness causes uneven neck tension which increases sd/es and in this case group size as well. th-cam.com/video/KK_44sDl2m0/w-d-xo.html
do you anneal before of after you resize your brass?
I anneal before resizing. That is the way AMP recommends to do it. I have heard of some doing it after. The die setting change is the biggest difference for me. If I don't anneal before, the shoulder bump isn't as consistent when I size.
Will the 21st Century tool attach to the Hornady mount ?
I am fairly certain no.
@@BoltActionReloading Thank You for the fast answer. And Please Note "I enjoy your Video Presentations, and being new to many of the reloading processes I appreciate the info and data".
Just became aware of the 21st Century Prices, looks like I will be saving up for the Hornady!
Also saw a Post where an on-line business referred a Customer to 21st Century, and their response was a very short CAN'T HELP YOU, don't remember if SORRY was even used. I for one need all the Help I can Get !
A very effective way to pre-size the necks to exactly .002 under nominal bullet diameter is using a Lee neck collet sizing die. Great price, fast and accurate. It provides a perfect fit to the mandrels provided with the Hornady turning tool.
As I watch him cut the necks, I can't help but notice the "bounce" in the head area on a couple of cases. That doesn't help with concentricity at all. It appears to me that the mounting system for the case is flawed in its design.
---Just my two cents.
What is the purpose of neck turning? Concentricity? I'm new to reloading.
Uniformity of wall thickness and therefore even neck tension on seated bullet.
@@larky1973 thanks.
Do you need this for semi automatic reloading
I would never go through the trouble.
@@BoltActionReloading thanks
Any advice on how to find the lans on the RPR? How do you determine the seating depth?? Thanks
You need a Hornady oal gauge with the appropriate modified case for your caliber.
I have found that if I do neck trimming after I do trim to length that the trim to length gets longer. I do my trim to length after I do a neck trim( me personally, I use RCBS reloading equipment).
That's backwards. Think about it. Your cases are different lengths. Therefore your cutter head will not stop in same place near shoulder. You'll have no consistency. Trim to length first.
Don't call it neck trimming, lt confuses with trimming to length. Proper term is "neck turning".
@@toddscholze6168 I have found that if I trim to length first then neck turn second, my trim to length measurements increase leading me to trim the case length a 2nd time! Since I’m working with 1,000’s of cases at the moment that take more time! That is why I neck turn first and trim to length second! This is consistently happens with all of the shouldered cartridge calibers that I have currently! I don’t have time to trim case length twice!
That thing got a Hemi in it? :)
Do you ever notice any galling inside the neck from the pilot?
I get that sometimes. Not sure what it’s from. Maybe if I forget to lube the mandrel.
I would not call it galling. You have to keep the mandrel clean but so far I haven't seen a problem.
Jim Arnold wouldn’t it be burnishing more than galling? Wouldn’t galling look like the brass is being smeared? I just bought this tool and have yet to try it out.
Dip it in dry graphite.
I got completely lost on all the different things needed at the start various mandrels etc too confusing
You can simply size your brass and turn it however my results doing that were not as good. If you use a "neck turning" mandrel (from Sinclair or otherwise) to open up the neck you can get a better fit and a better result in my opinion. Its one extra step and not really difficult at all.
Great video. Have you ever used the Lee collet dies to straighten and reform the case necks? It all but eliminates most neck turning. fortunecookie45LC did a great video on it. BTW the best thing to use is a non ferrous cutting fluid for the neck cutting. I use a Relton brand cutting oil for 30 yrs they make both ferrous and non ferrous and its great stuff. Saves a ton in cutting tool wear in drilling, esp. Your 3 in 1 lube on the inside case necks and Hornady shaft is great thought too.
Most dies put about 2 thousandths undersize for neck tension in bullet seating. Depending on the brass you don't need to shoot it first. If you get new brass all out of the same lot number, you can just size the brass make sure they are all cut to length, and you are good to go on neck sizing. BTW it isn't a one-time thing if you are full length sizing, and the case grows. It will have inconsistencies close to the neck where it grows. And there is no way in hell that 10 thousandths settings are going to make anything more consistent. You deal with too much micromanagement. Many people have abandoned the neck sizing and went to premium brass. I have done that, but I have a lot of brass that I have neck sized. When you get Remington, Federal and Winchester brass they need all the help they can get.
Starts at 7:06
Love the shows, but what worries me is that you never shoot good groups, whats wrong
A $150 item that works the same thing as a Lee $25 tool? You do the math.
Geez. I thought golf was expensive.
The video is good, but a good advice would be please explain less and make the story short, more action and less words ;-)
I like your videos but man, you say "actually" about 12 times a minute.
I need a shock collar to make me stop I think.
Cutting oil? To shave brass with a steel bit at slow speed? 🤣
Do not hit shoulder
After all the other tools we have to fine tune our brass, here comes another worthless one...
makes absolutely no sense when you say neck turning will not be effective without sized concentric brass to start with. Do you work for Lapua? You don't sound Finnish. After resizing, yes, expander mandreling will make more concentric necks, however..... neck thickness varies, and is still there after sizing and doesn't help that, from your standards ! It has to be turned down for even thickness. You should know that ! ANY brand of brass has neck thickness variations.
IMO you are not going to get optimal results with this device without fireforming first. Just because the neck rides on a mandrel during the cutting process doesn't mean that inside of the case neck is without variation. IMO, having fired properly sized brass before perform this operation (if you decide to do it) will yield better results overall. You are more than welcome to test and find out for yourself.
If you take a lot of new brass and spin every piece on a concentricity gauge without firing look at what it tells you. Very likely you aren't going to see numbers that are very good (for every piece in the lot). How do we make it better? We can expand it, but does that make it more concentric? Probably won't fix everything. However, if we fire it, your brass should be the size of your chamber. Check the runout again after firing and see what it looks like. If its not less than .001" TIR then I doubt any operation you perform on your brass is going to be worth your time. If you can size and expand it without inducing any additional runout I believe that the finished product quality will be higher than if you had done it without firing first.
Remember this tool is removing material from only one side. This is not the IDOD where there is a dimension between 2 cutters that are going to remove variation from 2 surfaces at the same time. Do what you feel is appropriate.
As for your ridiculous Lapua comment, no, so far they won't even return a basic email that I send with a question. You are correct that all brass has thickness variation. I don't think I ever stated otherwise. That said, there are quality differences between manufactures. I would rather spend a little more money on my brass where I get more firings, better results on target, and there is measurably less variation. If you break it down to cost per firing I have found Lapua to be a "cheaper option" Many folks that used to turn have stopped because the product they were getting wasn't worth the effort. Everyone has to decide for themselves.
BAR
Your comment is somewhat adversarial which would be taken more serious if you would ask for information or supply information for what you may have learned thru your experience. Being adversarial is uncalled for. This video is not a explain all and I’m sure wasn’t meant to be. It is an introduction to neck trimming which many Reloaders haven’t the foggiest knowledge off. I’ve been reloading various calibers for over 40 years, I was on the rifle/pistol team in the US Army, but it was years before I was introduced to neck turning, as there were nearly non existent tools out there to do neck turning. On the team I hadn’t heard of that, but we didn’t load our own ammo, the armorer did. So this video is useful to inform but not a school all. Be nice, you will be respected better. Have a good day and enjoy reloading, the sanity work.
TO MUCH BS
The narrative voice is loud and aggressive tiresome