POE 3.24 - T17s - How Did The Uber Boss Overhaul & What Should Change - Path of Exile Necropolis
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ค. 2024
- #poe #necropolis #pathofexile
It's been 50 days and change since 3.24 shook up bosses and uber bosses, solving a lot of old problems and creating some new ones.
0:00 Intro
0:25 This is an opinion video & is positive with reservations.
0:56 Something I learned writing this video: 'Uber Elder' is a naming nightmare GGG need to fix
2:26 How Bossing Worked From 3.18 To 3.23
3:34 A Stat I'd Love To See From That Era - Professionalization Of Boss Killing
3:51 What Were The Issues With The Old System? Huge numbers of entry tokens in circulation required low drop rates, leadign to hyper-professionalization of boss killing
7:28 What Were The 3.24 Changes? Splitting of loot pools, splitting of access keys, fragment systems, massive drop rate increases e.g. Progenesis 1.5% to 10-12%
8:27 Hidden T17 Mechanics - rigging fragment drops in your favour
9:40 Hidden T17 Mechanics - rigging T17 map drops in your favour
10:12 Hidden T17 Mechanics - How many fragments drop
10:37 Which T17 Drops Which Boss Tokens? How Big Is This Bias (it's BIG)?
11:03 T17 Map Mods - Some Are Over The Top, But Back To Basics Is The Real Issue
13:12 Is This Better Or Worse Than The Old Boss System?
16:29 Addressing Ideas For Improvements Other Players Have Raised - Reverting
17:19 Addressing Ideas For Improvements Other Players Have Raised - Reverting But Keeping 3.24's High Drop Rates On Uber Exclusives
18:18 Addressing Ideas For Improvements Other Players Have Raised - Adopting the Beachhead Model Onto Pinnacle Bosses
19:26 Addressing Ideas For Improvements Other Players Have Raised - 'Messing With' Bulk Runners - Trade and/or time restrictions on trading content
22:24 Players are good at optimizing the fun out of certain systems...
22:52 My Own Suggestions - allow alternatives to T17s, move some loot out of Maven/Uber Maven toward other pinnacle bosses.
Which T17 map drops from each map: www.poewiki.net/wiki/Tier_17_map
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T17s *without* Back to Basics are still really, really hard, and there are a TON of map mods that are very difficult. It took me a long time to be able to complete a T17. It's not just a Back to Basics issue.
I think them being rly hard is fine, as long as they aren't the place to farm everything
I think they are legit tough, but compared to T16 B2B - they are not. Slight step up from 60% or 80% deli T16, IMO.
I agree, it took me a long time to complete one, and I just did it because I was missing my fith slot in the map device. I have no issue with them being that hard, my issue was with the 5th map slot being behind completing one. I'm perfect fine with farming T16, but I had to farm sub optimal for a long time without the 5th slot.
@@ShaunhanM And for sure not unlock the fifth map slot.
@@sirgog I think maybe some name other than T17 may be a good idea for GGG to consider. T15 to T16 is almost unnnoticable. T16 to T17 is an absolute terror by comparison.
"Uber Elder" is already something that GGG didn't come up with, but the community. They have since adopted the naming in posts/videos/livestreams to fit with the community.
The official name is "The Elder in the Shaper's Realm". No "uber" in there.
In my perspective the league did a perfect job of leaving a bad taste in my mouth by promising content to fill the gap between "basic T16 / pinnacle" content and the elite content in the game. Instead of filling that gap the T17s actually became the new elite content in the game and the gap between basic & elite content has never felt wider ..
I feel that without back to basics and all the Atlas modifier effect T17s are in that gap (maybe not all five of them, but Fortress definitely is). Except with hyperspecialisation.
I think the gap you refer to has a bunch of stuff hidden in it - 60-80% deli T16 maps, Delve 400-600, Simulacrum waves 18-25, and more... but it's not clear where this content is to people. T1 to T16 it's a clear slow progression, then 17 is a long way past that (with IMO Uber Pinnacles a bit further)
My problem currently is, that the opportunity cost (and general cost) to even try the uber versions of the bosses even once is so incredibly high.
I would argue something like "if you kill the normal boss you get a chance to drop the uber fragment to try the boss". But right now T17 maps are so incredibly hard, that it is nearly impossible to "train" the uber bosses again.
I would consider myself to be like in the top 1-5% of players (MB, HH and about 500 Div each league in other gear) and I am currently saying, that I don't even bother with the uber bosses. Which is sad, since I got the farming for currency down and wanted to start doing and learning the uber bosses (normal ones are easy).
So my suggestion would be to guard the Uber Fragments with a somewhat low drop chance (like 5-10%) behind the normal boss. Then you could still somewhat farm it, but its not entirely impossible for some builds to even get it once (T17 are no joke, even without back to basics
Three of the ubers are really cheap at least. The other four - well they have chase items, so players bid up the access fees.
Majority of the t17 specific mods are the issue, not back to basics.
I *can* clear double nemesis, union of souls, 300% more life on back to basics. But why would I spend 30 minutes to clear 1 map?
While simultaneously I probably can't clear no damage 40% of the time. And I cant even walk if my action speed is reduced per action. Marked for death is a very literal name since no build in the game can counter it to my knowledge. (I dont consider stopping gameplay to sit and wait as a gameplay counter. NOT playing the game should never be the solution to a problem in the game.)
The number of mods where the solution is to just sit and wait afk is not fun.
Elder tentacles when all the t17s are narrow hallways? Its literally kill a mob, wait for 30 seconds to be allowed to walk safely. Runes of the exarch and awakeners desolation are the same. Sit and wait for visual clutter to clear you you can walk. If you have a lot of loot expect to waste multiple minutes trying to loot safely over sirus ground shit.
Union of Souls is ridiculous, I'll agree with that one. Numbers on it are too high.
But it's in a league of its own. Stuff like Awakener's Desolation is sketchy, but it's just bad ground, a tougher version of desecrated ground in lower maps. I do hate looting around it, but it's not that sketchy a mod.
Call it the "Shelder" encounter.
That would work.
Lmao I’ve been calling it shelder and Uber shelder for a while and chastising friends when they call it Uber Elder
Timed lockouts would lead to a PoE offshoot of split raiding: making multiple accounts and/or characters to farm the same boss
I know that's actually somewhat of a player problem, but making game design decisions that lead to actively unfun gameplay are bad game design decisions. Any other solution is preferred.
Not mention with the way drop-rates are the severe FOMO that comes with not playing EVERY day.
I think adding Uber frags to standard variants of the bosses would be a good change. This would trickle down value of uber versions down to standard versions and make them more valuable to farm and more viable way to target specific Uber bosses. If the rarity of fragments is the issue, make them non-guaranteed drop but this would make T17s not the only source.
Bossing was by far the most enjoyable thing for me for the last 5 years. This experience was absolutely destroyed this pach, to say that everything they did to bossing is horrible is absolute underestimation.
Putting the fragments behind the HORRIBLY balanced T17 maps is EASILY the worst decision I have seen GGG making, or at least with the worst implementation. To say those ar epretty similar to 3.18-3.23 is absolutely inaccurate.
1. T17 are MUCH MUCH rarer than the guardian maps before, This made the fragments MUCH MUCH rarer and expensive to the point where we have Uber maven is 12 div to run,.
This made the Uber boss farming, which is very very satisfying and actually, together with Sanctum, is one of the few things in the game that IMO actually require learning mechanics, reacting, and not just moving and occasionalyl clicking right click to explode the screen.
Solution - T17 should either not be the only place to farm fragments from (e.g. the normal bosses can trop fragments) or/and the T17 fragment drop numbers should be doubled
2. T17 are dropping a set of random fragments from 3 available for each map, this makes the problem in p.1 even bigger. Not only T17 are quite rare for them to be the only source of fragments, the fact that some of them cannot drop the more valuable fragments makes the demand for T17 quite squed and thus in even more demand than others.
Solusion - Similar to p.1 but also the fragments should be fully randomized with a compensatory mecahnicsm (so you get close to even amount of each fragment). Or you can make the uber fragments general and being able to open every Uber fight. There are many solutions for this, it is just makeing the 1st problem even bigger.
3. T17 are still a HUGE problem with their absolutely imbalanced modifiers.
Solution - I hope everyone agrees that those will have to be altered before the next patch and rebalanced
4. T17 SHOULD NOT BE the best place to farm and ALSO give fragments - This again makes the problem in p.1 even more significant. Previously we had maps that are best to farm if you farm currency/scarabs/etc. and boss maps you farm for fragments. Now, those are combined into 1 and this makes the T17 by far the best and the ONLY thing to farm if you want keep up with other players doing that.
So what they did was - now you have to get your uber fragments from a different place (nice variety), but also, they made this same place absolutely the best place to farm everything (except some strats that are relying on white or yellow T maps). They did not add variety to the game, they did exactly the opposite.
In a nutshell, I have never seen a bigger step in the wrong direction and more horribly balanced contend released by GGG ever.
Not even slightly surpriced this league had horrible retention and I expect it to get much much worse if GGG does not make significant changes.
I am a proson tha played the game in the Beta, than returned 5-6 years ago and for first time since then, I feel the game is getting worse, although the idea behind the changes was great, the implementation seemed like it was done by toddlers.
I like your suggestion for reshuffling the uber boss drops
Um. I don't have a lot of thoughts on your points, but the word you spelled "squed" is spelled "skewed." Not trying to be rude, just trying to help.
Uber Maven is expensive because its loot is so good. It got buffed by a factor of more than 4 (Progenesis drop rate especially, but also Impossible Escape), and the playerbase learned that quickly.
Ahuatotli is the same, but can't really be traded. Loot so good that you average ~7d per fight.
Except for a couple of them, T17 mods are fine without Back to Basics. Until B2B is gone, every league will be a debacle.
As for 4 - that's definitely an issue. T17s are as bad at overdoing base game loot this league as the Wildwood was last league. They need crushing nerfs to quant, rarity and packsize - basically, undoing the week 1 patch.
@@sirgog
1. This is 1 of the reasons Uber Maven is expensive, it is BY FAR not the biggest one. The biggest one is the access to the fight in terms of fragments is completely different one. Previously you were able to access the fight with 1 or 2 invitation fights, it is much hareder now.
So I completely disagree with you here, by far the Maven items did not change, the way we access the fight did. Yes, what you mentioned above is kind of relevant, definitely not that significant.
Previously the Uber boss fragments were obtained in a different way (except Sirus, shaper and Maven, which could be going together with the invitation runs), now they are all obtained in the same way and this is making the loot form 1 boss having a significantly higher impact than before. If this is the point you were trying to make, I agree, it is just a 2 issue thing, the loot + the way you get access to the fight
2. A couple of T17 mods, really? Have you even played a juiced T17 man? and, if you say, you do not have to juice it, just like the problem with the fragments before, if you are not juicing the map, you are not getting the full benefit while the price is determined by the juicers (so let me save you the time of writing this)
lets seee the COUPLE of mods you mentioned
- Pleayers and minions deal NO damage for 4 out of every 10 seconds;
- Rare monsters have Volatile cores (the damage here is higher than Sirus beam), definitely playable, a rebalance is, however, neeeded.
- Players are asssaulted by bloodstained sawblades (insane damage, needs rebalancing)
- Players are marked for Death for 10 seconds after killing a rare or unique monster
- Rare monster are shaper touched - The bonus to the monsters in a juiced map is absolutely insane, not to metnion the shaper mechanics
- Magic and normal monsters are in union of souls
- Area contains Unstable Tentacle Fiends (this is just a horrible and not fun interaction, not hard, not sure why it exists though)
- The Maven interferes with Players (on a quiced map 1 maven ball kills you immediately)
Those are mods that I do not think should be removed, but definitely should be rebalanced. I do not mention here everything that makes the game unplayable when combined with the attlass like Cooldown recovery reduction, Life, mana, es regenerationr eduction and things like that.
The T17 are absolutely the wors balanced contend ever released.
And yes, back to basics is a horrible keystone and has to be removed with the next patch, I hope they do it right.
i absolutely disagree that t17s are the best place to farm. t16 b2b and other strats can keep up.
#4 is THE issue of 3.24 for me. IMO, this league exacerbated the elitism in this game, t16 mappers are second-class exiles. The new 'end-game' requires a level of game knowledge/time investment that many don't care to pursue. Too many changes resulted in shit game balance, and mid-league updates after economy completely fucked just furthers gap b/w haves and have-nots
I'd be happier if ggg just added a "non-map boss monster don't drop loot" modifier to all t17s. During the reveal, ggg stated they didn't want t17 to replace t16 farming, and since t17s are necessary for ubers people would do them anyway.
This would be a happy median, but i would instead allow for a small chance of boss only div cards to drop instead , that would mean a high variance t17 map farming strat that doesnt completely make it useless for magicfinders etc at endgame
i love how it is. why should t17s drop no loot just because some people cant handle them.
finally a mapping challenge that doesn't require you to go deep delve.
0 loot is too far. If they dropped about as much general loot as 60% deli T16s I think that would be right.
I always enjoy your videos sir thank you for sharing
B2B should be made a separate multiplier, changed to only affect pack size and adjusted numerically so on average you get more mobs in your map than people juicing league mechanics on an identical map. Giving up league mechanics that have their own reward pool and better quality rares/magic mobs is a big downside which is why I think its important to have more monsters on average otherwise the keystone is completely useless. I think that overall the design of a keystone that gives you benefits for giving up league mechanics is better than one that makes you run the league mechanics without notables but it sure needs some more iterating on it.
T17 maps having implicits that give more multipliers to specific type of loot is imo a huge mistake and the more experienced devs should have known that based on what happened in the early days when quant and rarity were affixes and everyone would spam for them on every map.
I am unsure as to what the solution to fixing T17s to fit the role they were meant to have instead of becoming the best place to run 90% of your strategies is, but between some of the mods, the implicits and back to basics, having a meta of chaos spamming thousands of chaos orbs on rolling maps is just not fun.
I also hope they remove curation scarab completely. The functionality on paper sounds very cool in terms of fixing the "we are stuck in Crimson Prison" feeling, but paying divines to turn the X most valuable cards in the game into global drops is imo too game warping and kind of completely defeats the purpose of having cards like unrequited love be gated behind annoying maps like Vaal Temple or Maze. Farming div cards is very fun and being able to add 2-3 divination cards you want to your favorite layout (maybe with a reduced drop chance) would be the sweetspot imo as long as the system is global and available via an unlock and not a scarab, but paying divines to make every mob in your map eligible to drop loot that normally cannot drop in that area AND getting a 120% more multiplier on div cards is imo borderline bad game design.
Curation scarab should not have "10% more cards per favorite map" but "3-5% less per favorite map". Numbers on it are just absurd.
Really love the suggestion of gems dropping from all bosses as well as uber fragments coming from "side content" bosses. In fact, I love that suggestion so much that I will now be very sad if that's not exactly what happens next patch. Thanks Gog!
I really liked your idea there at the end on what to do. I also really fucking want them to delete back to basics from the atlas tree. They removed wandering path and put B2b on the tree? D:
Yeah B2B reminds me of OG Wrath of the Cosmos which was basically "You get a one-shot! You get a one-shot! Everybody gets a one-shot!" but was also so good it felt mandatory to take.
Honestly I'd love to see how 3.24 would have played out without B2B, without allflames and without ghosts.
@@sirgog one thing ive been harping on all league is that they rly made it impossible on themselves to balance the economy with all the changes and the league mechanic being so impactful. If we had something like Tota they would have had a better shot
I dunno, i really liked it. It turns t17 into a 20 min horror show where every portal counts, and it still being rewarding. That is fun. And even on non-t17 it's pretty fun. But i can see the issue if some ultra juiced build can zoom even through that hell.
@@sirgog 'and without ghosts' - wait, what do ghosts have to do with it? Tormented Spirits have that big of an effect?
@ArawnOfAnnwn they can add additional quant and or rarity
You say multiple times that players loathe trade friction, but i don't think that's true in the case of Bind to Account. GGG hates untradables, but as we saw with Last Epoch, players will play whatever they believe is more powerful. Nearly the entire playerbase of LE chose to play without access to the main way of trading, massively increasing friction, because it was more beneficial.
That's the core philosophy of LE - all of its systems are designed around "almost" disallowing trade. Thing is, that is in ALL of its systems. Affix shards etc.
I think LE is quite a decent game, but it's very different to POE and honestly feels like it is optimized for offline solo play.
The cost of the design philosophy is that you just cannot have "oh what the HELL i had that item drop!" moments like getting a direct Mageblood drop in POE. Items that are that rare basically do not exist in such a game.
@@sirgog Sure, but you can preserve those moments in mapping and have bosses have bind on pick up items. I think it's worth an experiment for a league at least, or even an end of league event. I think there are more players that would enjoy BoP for bosses than you're giving credit, given that bossing with hyper rarity to enforce trading benefits only the hyper-efficient players systematically.
Very much agreed with your suggestions.
Have not finished the vid yet so might miss it if you have mentioned it but I think one way to 'fix' it on the Eldritch altar end of the maps is to remove the useless mini-boss invites and make it 12 altars = Normal Exarch/Eater and 24 altars = Uber Exarch/Eater (but you have to kill the map boss so you can skip the non-uber invitation if you want like with the mini-bosses). I think gating Shaper, Elder, Maven and Uber Elder behind T17's is less tedious than getting their non-Uber counterparts so I'm fine with it. With Uber Cortex, I am not entirely sure.
UPDATE: Agreed with most points, would be nice to make it less oppressive by widening fragment drops to other endgame content (and letting us get the 5th map device slot through Legion OR through T17's)
Your idea is somewhat interesting. The minibosses are in a weird place where they don't have many consumables. Just exceptional ichors/embers, and some pretty rare items that are useful but not chase.
I do wonder how an Uber Black Star fight would feel, with Eternal Struggle buffed to have one 'Perfect' tier implicit, and one 'Grand' tier.
I think that a hybrid of the timed lock-out and token based entry schemes would be best: I think that after you’ve unlocked the aspirational content by getting its access tokens once then you should be able to try the content for no cost once per week (or some other non-trivial time) but you can also use the tokens as normal if you want to spam. That would allow people to test out the encounters but wouldn’t make any practical difference to dedicated boss killers.
There’s little as disheartening to me as a player as when I think it’s worth trying something only to learn after I’ve wasted the expensive access method that I just get absolutely smashed.
Big thanks for also stating how it was before, not everyone is walking poewiki out here)
Yeah I figured there's always new players (or new to deep endgame players)
@@sirgog ajaja lol, i am not new, 3000h over 12 years. It is just it cannot fit in my attention span)))
I'd really like to see the other aspirational mid-tier content get boss shards. It would be even better if, over time, those pieces of content led to their own, new boss encounters, and had biases toward their specific encounter. A Blight-based Pinnacle boss seems like an exceptionally cool boss design playground.
21:34 - I cannot emphasize what a visceral reaction I have to the concept of "bound" items. Holy hell would that absolutely destroy the game.
100% agree. I would probably instantly quit POE.
We had such things in Sanctum league. Also tattoos are practically bound to character.
@@zedarzy3547 They're bound in the same way any consumable is, so that's not a big deal. At least you can trade them before using them.
I will be extremely surprised if B2B survives. It is just way too much.
i like that idea you propose! I would also reduce the rewards that T17 gives. they are just too rewarding with the good build compared to T16
Very good idea about the bosses at the end! I would like that very much too. You should work at ggg!
Thinking about it now, it is in fact very weird to me that only maven drops awaken gems, why do you think that is? Is it a lore related thing?
For a period Maven's loot table sucked so GGG moved the gems there (they'd been Sirus drops before).
Then Maven had three big improvements to her loot. Progenesis and Impossible Escape were added, and Legacy of Fury was gigabuffed.
making more things drop uber fragments would be a wonderful change
I'm not much of a mapper, so I would love to get uber fragments from breachstones, delve bosses and Feared.
Perhaps boosting the drop rate for the uber fragments would help, but i do not like the idea that the big uber boss drops have become far more expensive and harder to obtain especially in a SSF environment with the changes, i cannot think of another possibility other than that or maybe allowing t17's to be rolled like t16s
Why not nerf T17 maps? Ubers should be harder than the T17's.
Ubers are way harder than T17s... except when Back to Basics is used.
Was the same in 3.18 - Exarch altar maps were WAY harder than Uber Exarch was... if you specced Wrath of the Cosmos as most people did.
They should do that 100000%
@@sirgog I think the main issue is you need to scale up the T17 map difficulty beyond uber difficulty to make it worth running over selling the map.
For a char tailored to skin Uber Maven... yes, t17s would be harder... sure. Is this your point? I'm genuinely confused.
Uber Uber Elder only has 1 Elder donut ring, I did an Abomination Map that put 4 of them in my tiny Ritual circle with a narrow corridor. T17s are absolutely harder with their Valdo circus mods
1:25 I wouldn't say uber shaper is so much harder than uber elder? Am I cooked? I've probably done too many UUEs at this point.
T17's main pupose should be the fragments at the end. If they are harder than ubers - make ubers harder. we have so much power creep, make it so hard again that only a handful of builds can even clear them like on release where basicly all everyone who wanted to farm them had to make dedicated bosser like (seismic) trapper.
One thing that I don't ever seen talked about, even to dismiss it, is the effect of the Lantern on T17s. Unavoidable and random buffs to mob power I feel has at least some impact on player perception of it's difficulty. I'm thinking that they might not make big changes to T17s next league, but without the Lantern we'll see them as a bit easier when mixed with whatever nerfs they put on them along with player experience with the content.
I'm sure I'm in the minority, but I REALLY enjoy the T17 system and back to basics, because it's a really fun/additional layer of challenge that I can't get anywhere else.
But, I play PoE for a long time each league and invest massively (4-600 divs is what I consider the minimum cost for when I'm happy with a build) into the builds I put together.
I've never done more endgame content than what I've done this league, and it still feels both challenging and rewarding
I don't think you are the only person , but B2B dropping as much loot as it does kinda takes over the entire economy. I think every league while it exists will fail, as players will feel compelled to run it.
@@sirgog that part I do agree with -- I think they should remove how B2B scales with the increased scarab/currency multiplier, in order to keep that more in-line with other content
My issues with the changes are how annoying rolling t17s are and the boss loot tables being weird in some places. For example I don't think uber cortex should drop mask of the tribunal (unless it gets buffed to be useful on some number of builds), and I don't think starforge/saviour/grace of goddess should be a 0.5%-1% or so drop which is mostly worthless.
I don't get why there is a loot pool difference between the difficulties. Can't you simply make the drop chance of the chase item far rarer in the easier fight to the degree where it's worth making a better character
They tried that in the past but with tradeable entry tokens, it was always "wrong" to run non-Uber. Or at least it felt "wrong"
Totes agree with the Uber Elder Nomenclature Dilemma. Also, I agree that awakened gems would be cool to add to all Ubers.
I think you are missing one aspect of the discussion. A lot of players are simply trying to LEARN the boss fights. They just want to be able to kill the boss on the normal version for the first time. On the previous systems because the key to enter the boss fight was the same for the normal and uber, the keys were very expensive and players were not able to even attempt the bosses without spending a significant percentage of their currency. Trying the boss and failing and then not being able to try more is an incredibly bad experience for players, especially when a lot of the mechanics you need to dodge will simply 1shot players. The important thing is that loot has zero relevance to someone just trying to learn the fight, other than the cost of the key.
I do like other 'pinnacle' content giving uber fragments. T17's are 'pinnacle maps'. But 'pinnacle' content exists in other places; like Blight-Ravaged Maps.
New player here: can confirm the confusion around Uber Elder
This is my second league of POE. I got 40/40 without any carries, I don’t actually know how those work. I only quit the league because I accomplished my primary goal of 40/40 and after failing a graveyard craft, I refused to send 100 messages to try to buy over priced corpse. I do remember t17 being really hard at first, they were a big step up from t16 but I think it was because I had so my notables that increased map effects. I barely beat the t17, unlocked my 5th map device slot and went back to the other content. When I came back to t17, they were pretty easy once you avoid certain mods. Also you could control how hard the map was with the explicit effect nodes. I think the people saying t17 are too hard, are just doing them too juiced and or too early. As it relates to the drops, buying them on trade league is the best thing to do cause farming them on your own is just not viable. The drop rates are not meant for a single person to obtain. Buy the cheapest progenesis and throw could divine orbs on it cause it’s not with the farm. You are better off selling those fragments and buying it. I love the graveyard crafting, but the trading is a nightmare especially since so much people have quit.
How about just Eldershaper?
They need to add more tiers between t16 and current t17 to make progress more smooth
I feel they sort of have this but it's hidden. 60% deli T16 or 80%, stuff like that.
@@sirgog I don't like delirium. It chunks FPS haaaard even when I play on GeforceNow plus makes everything grey. I don't consider delirium as a content that I would run between t16 and t17 at all
I really only dislike the fact that the 5th map slot is now locked behind something else. It has destroyed my enjoyment of running scarabs, which is actually kinda cool now. 😊
As a somewhat casual SSF player, I'm a little salty about GGG putting the extra map device slot behind T17s. At least for me that is a lot more work to get unlocked than the previous legion way
Well lets say entrance of some uber bosses costs like 5 divine
What you get as a drop is 5 chaos unq 😅 And you have %2 chance to drop something valuable.
There's nothing like that in the game.
Uber Maven is expensive to run because the flask is so good. It's not even rare (~1 in 9) and it still sells for a lot. So bossers keep buying the entry tickets.
3.23 Uber Maven was a lot worse when Progenesis was ~1.5% drop rate.
wouldn't letting T17's be crafted like normal maps, and get rid of Back to Basics, fix most issues? it'd fix a fair bit of the loot generation disparity; it'd fix the hardcore gripes; it'd make unlocking the 5-slot map device more realistic for average players; it'd actually be a bridging difficultly between non-uber and uber that's reliable (the current problem is some T17's are harder then uber and some aren't. it's mod-dependent)... it seems like it'd fix a lot honestly. sure, it'd still be better to sell them to those that can run them heavily crafted but that's no different than current conditions.
The only issue I have with anything said is the statement at around 22:40. It's not that it's JUST players optimizing fun. GGG frequently balances the game around this behavior which also reinforces it. Saying "look headhunter is lame because there are a lot" is one example imo. Not sure which is the chicken or the egg at this point. People are asking GGG for opportunities to optimize the fun out of the game. So you get convoluted systems that require bulk trading, dedicated farmers and trade bots. The alternative is for a 1 in 10000 chance to get something, that might be worth more than the aspirational content you are trying to do. However, most people will choose to sell then actually play all of the game because most of the content players do is required to farm aspirational content in the first place. If you can make that process feel better, that's what you'll do instead of spending 10 minutes on a Maven fight you might not win for loot you will most likely not need or get.
imo a good solution would be to spread value down the difficulty ladder not across. By having more content be farm-able in more locations outside of pinnacle content keeps that content viable. There is an obscene amount of value in T17s and Maven. If you can create so many avenues for value that specialization and bulk trading is less valuable in-game, then the majority of players who feed that system can feel running those systems are worth it for fun's sake instead. A (bad) example, (but just to get my point across) would be locking HH in theme specific map bosses with a low drop rate. People can farm to their hearts content, but all of their value will be in alchs and the few headhunters they farm. Something like this, but not this exactly, instead of the current system that puts nearly ALL of the value at the highest tiers of game-play.
Are we expecting some kind of end of league events this league? I think GGG tends to run these if league extended, which probably will be, and it's unpopular league, that Necropolis definitely is.
My issue is that Iv had literally only 4 T17 maps drop for me and Iv run 100s of T15+ maps. On top of that my character can afk even in T17 maps but the bosses kill me. Defense are so stupid in Poe literally you must have max spell suppression and max three other defenses (conversion, CE,block/dodge). This one thing kills build creativity
I’m not 100% sure but I think you can only get T17s from T16 maps. At the very least you chances of getting T17’s will be higher.
@@christianklopfer1758 From what's written on watchstones, each gives 0.4% chance of T16 map drop converting into T17
@@wumi2419Important to realize that each watchstone gives that chance PER watchstone, similar to grand spectrum jewels. The chances with 1-4 watchstones are .4/1.6/3.6/6.4%.
If you don’t have all 4 watchstones, you’re seriously hurting your chances of getting t17s, both because some map drops are
It's a very rare occurrence when sirgog has put on his thinking cap, and not come away with at least a few well reasoned, often excellent, solutions to the sub-optimal. This is not one of those situations.
p.s. If you ever want to sell that thinking cap, I think I might know someone who's interested *8 )
I agree with most of the video, but I dislike that T17's gate the 5th Map Slot behind a completion AND are so market-upsetting that they should be more accessible to run for "regular" builds, but less rewarding outside of the guaranteed fragment rewards.
In essence, I want T17's to roll less crazy modifiers or modifier values and grant less reward multipliers than right now, so more builds can potentially run a version they can beat, even if that takes some portals and a lot of time for a single run. It would still be lucrative and worth farming on hyperspecialized builds, but less upsetting for the market and allows other farming methods to compete a little better, as right now many alternative strategies are left in the dust despite being actually fun and rewarding enough to make decent currency.
Also I'd like to see Back to Basics numbers adjusted to be more consistent, instead of a variety of 0-80% more effect. I'd much rather have a 20-50% multiplier, allowing for more consistency and availability to builds otherwise left in the dust at high % rolls.
just use tiers, its the easiest way to implement, just examples below, would need actual thought into it but can continually scale, GGG could even tier the bosses based off what they think the difficulty "should" be. This will also allow GGG to move the bosses around and change them to different tiers and tell us in patch notes.
Tier 0 - Act Bosses, Map Bosses, Maven's Invitation - The Atlas, Uber lab, etc
Tier 1 - The Black Star, Infinite Hunger, Atziri, Al-Hezmin, Baran, Drox,, Veritania, Constrictor, Enslaver, Eradicator, Purifier, Kurgal, Ahatotli, Beyond bosses, Omnitect, Abyss Bosses etc
Tier 2 - Aul, Breach Bosses, Catarina, Eater, Exarch, Oashabietc
Tier 3 - Sirus, Elder, Shaper, T17 bosses?
Tier 4 - Uber Elder, Uber Sirus, Uber Cortex etc
Tier 5 - Feared?
thoughts?
That would be interesting. I'd put T17s into T4 on your setup, Uber Pinnacles into T5, and the Feared into T4 as well. Hidden and Elderslayers get their own tier (3.5).
Aul's a wildcard though. He's tier 6 in very deep delve, but tier 2 at low depth.
the same dynamic where uber fights used to determine the prices of the standard fragments, has now been applied to mapping, with good scarabs being priced according to their value in T17s. Previously running normal boss fights was financially a loss, but I wasnt a bosser. Now with T17s, every other part of the game feels like a bad decision instead. worst thing to ever happen to the game.
This was always the case - gilded and especially winged scarabs were priced based upon fairly optimized use in previous leagues. At times, winged got priced based upon optimized group play. Same with rare sextants.
As long as the div scarab of curation gets deleted, the other scarabs are all pretty fine in 16s.
@@sirgog Ive never killed an uber boss or used a winged scarab, and I was never bothered in the slightest and usually play year round. I quit this league 3 weeks in because mapping in T16 felt like a waste of time. Seemed like I was basically Farming up t17 maps for other players to run, and there was a wall between me and the real game. Not everyone feels that way OK, but for me the fun is gone until something changes.
T17 maps are used to get to uber content - they are already required to run for that purpose. they should nerf the loot in t17 to end up in total being only slighty better then t16. The main complain would be why would i run t17 much harder for only a bit better reward? Well cause it is the only way to get uber fragments. so price of fragments will shift as more or less people clear it creating a balance. Less people run cause loot is not desireable, then fragments go up in price making it worth it to run it. Too many running, then price of fragment going down causing less players to run it. Nerfing t17 could be as simple as giving it negative quantity ( excluding fragment drop ) so it evens out with more monsters - ending up just a bit more loot than t16. Sidenote: this would also create a unique reason to run t17. It has tons of monsters but low quantity while t16 can have lots of quantity but low density ( comparatively ) . Means if diminishing returns are added , if you can get alot of quantity then you want density. If you dont have quantity/agility to kill density fast then you want each monster kill to be worth more hence t16.
T17's feel really strange to me. You cannot approach them the same way you do juiced T16's. For example, I juice 13 harbies (75% chance to be boss one), take beyond and delirium and maximum (with exception to B2B) increased modifiers on a MF RF Chieftain. The loot is great. Easily 20d-30d/hour. It is fun and even with a fairly tight loot filter, I may fill up inventory twice. For T17, this doesn't really work. The maps takes way too long to clear (15+ minutes) and the payout is complete sh!t unless I respec to B2B and use barrels, traitors and extra mods for rares. I compared my regular juicing MF character that I use to chain T16's and and it is a horrible experience in T17. If I change to B2B, T17's are shitting out loot and maps. If I use my B2B tree on my T16's they are barren wastelands and don't even drop 1/2 of an inventory. In other words, the strats that work really well for T16 (juicing) do not work very well on T17 and vice versa. All that said, T17's are still slow as shit even with my standard based over the top armour stacker. They feel like a chore to run! I can down the bosses in seconds, but the clear is awful, even with smite of judgement and + 2 strike on non-vaal and even the mastery for it. I am a very experienced player, 10K hours in the game, and am just baffled at how awful the T17's feel. The only way they feel decent is B2B and running barrels and hunted traitors and extra 2 mod rares. Juicing T17 with "league content" is a horrible experience. I don't die, but they take forever to clear. Not the case when you use B2B and just break barrels and kill rares. Also, even if time wasn't the issue with clearing Juiced to the gils T17's consider that 13 harbies @ 75% boss, delirum, maximum modifiers (sans B2b) and Beyond (no boss spawns, max portal merge radius) doesn't even drop 1/2 the loot at the barrels method drops. Not even half! And it fuggin takes like 5x as long to clear. Meanwhile that same B2B barrel strat is horrible for T16's, drops 1/4th the loot of what the Juiced league content can produce. Just so confusing and anti-climatic. BTW - Great video Sirgog. I generally agree with your stance.
I think all the Uber drops should be an even split. Or one item could 5-10% more rare. Same for the regular ones. I don't think you should put chase items behind bosses. The boss drops should be very useful or niche powerful but cheap to trade for.
I think chase items should be locked behind pure RNG base game drops and very rare div cards for them like mageblood.
The t17s are fine the way they are i think. They have the lantern mods mucking things up. I think they need to move the infused scarab mod to let you disable prefixes and suffix to a more common drop and make the infused options that are not harvest better and keep it pretty rare. That would help people be able to finish t17s with less difficulty and allowing them to get their 5th map slot
I like the idea of spreading out the the access to ubers a bit but I don't think thats the main issue. Because t17 drop everything normal maps can drop and the increase in difficulty even without back to basics is so extreme you have a huge portion of the player base that can't engage with it. However as you pointed out the price for everything is dictated by the players who are optimizing for that content.
This effectively makes doing anything in t16 feel awful. I have made a fair amount of currency this league but my early start was HEAVILY carried by dropping two expensive scarabs (20div) and a lucky divine devoted mod. Otherwise i would have been poor as shit.
TLDR spread out the fragments a bit and restrict some of the loot in t17. It's identity should be access to ubers like they said; they should not also be the best mapping content available.
🍺
I propose a clear and descriptive rename of the elder fights
1.) Elder (level 1)
2.) Penultimate Elder
3.) Ultimate Elder
ez pz
Alternative:
Lonely Elder
Elder with friends
Angery Elder
So every league since sentinel league I have been farming end game bosses. My opinion is this has been a set back for bossing in many ways. I make enough money to afford the fragments regardless of the economy. But many of my guild mates that don’t have as many hours to play feel it’s too much of a gamble to risk the fragments(especially Uber maven). This has further separated the wealthy from poor or even middle ground players. I think this is overall bad for retention and unhealthy for the game. As for ssf the implications are massive as it is now harder than ever to gain access to Ubers to farm for chase items. I feel this game is already difficult enough and each time they add more difficulty it doesn’t stop the vets, it discourages growth of newer players which we depend on if we want the game we love to continue to be successful.
With 3.24 I focused on a more SSF style league by doing a private league with a buddy. I like the start of the league and the early end game. What I noticed more than ever before, the game is very balanced around having trade access. I really disliked this league and several changes that were made this league because of that. This realization has taken a lot of pleasure out of the game for me. I fear this will also apply to future leagues if the game stays so heavily trade focused. I don't want to play trade simulator. I don't want to have to go to trade for everything I want to do in the game. I'd love to see more account bound items in the game, not everything. That could be with items straight up being account bound when found or become account bound when certain crafting has been applied to them. I must say I do like the changes with the maven invitations. I love running those.
Lets rename Uber Elder into Shelder!
might be a dumb idea of not that experienced player - yet I some what like idea of Einhar other guys memories. Why instead of t17 not to make it item drop lik this where you can apply it for atlas and get "route" with might be an option to pick towards what uber you wish to move. If that would have some difficulty mods. As a SSF player it feels like you are obligated to spec into map drop and all that related to get t17. I have overfilled stashes of t16 maps, that I would never run, We now have 3 atlas, but If you not spec in map tier mod AND league mechanic it just feels you missing out on a new content. I dont mind random, I dont mind deterministic, but currently it feels like too much of "this is the only right way".
uber elder = boomer. so there is elder, boomer and uber boomer.
they just need to get rid of Magic Find, DS2 came out over 20 years ago its ok for us to move on and progress. ❤
Well Ahck-TuaLly DS2 came out in 2014 :P
@@nach4642 haha, I meant D2. and honestly, if y'all really like the mf stuff its fine. it just really seems like its forced on you and I dont hink anything should feel that way in this type of game. same thing could be said about Spell Suppression but its not nearly as mandatory feeling as mf is .
@@n8doggy733 No disagreements from me lol. I agree that MF in PoE is bad. However, MF in D2 is actually balanced imo, but it IS >20 yo game haha. If MFing made sense outside of juiced T16's (I guess now T17's) and you could progress your characters this way, then I would support that. But the scaling for nearly everything in PoE is exponential (and unbalanced) and that's going to leave MFing mostly for PoE's elite cadre.
i think they call it “elder in the shaper’s realm” which is clunky :/
I'm reading the comments and seeing people's reactions to the current state of the game, i really think it's not warranted. (disclaimer : I'm one of the people farming B2B T17s)
Sure, it's not perfect, but it's not as bad as people are making it out to be.
If you spend a few chaos orbs you should be able to get a T17 that is very runnable on most builds at the level of investment they would have if they can kill pinnacles.
Yes, they are harder than Pinnacle bosses, but that is what they ARE supposed to be, a stepping stone between pinnacles and ubers, and if you don't do them with B2B,
they are absolutely that.
If you can't run T17s, then enhance your build till you are able to, it's a video game, it's supposed to have progression, you are not entitled to see the "VICTORY" screen in your video game, you have to earn it.
and T17s are not the only source for loot, there are many other ways to get currency to upgrade your build outside of T17s.
- Sanctum
- Delve
- We can guarantee 100% masters in our maps now, Jun + Alva in white T16 maps are VERY lucrative.
- You can act as the middle man and SELL the T17 maps you drop in T16s
- There are mechanics that don't really scale with the map tier, Harbinger (especially when combined with beyond that can be 100% guaranteed now) is pretty good now
these are just the ones i tried myself this league and allowed me to get my characters to be T17 and Ubers viable.
I'm sure you can find other better strats, you don't HAVE to do T17s.
I do agree that the level of loot juicing that is possible with T17s right now is bad for the game, my suggestion for it is to keep the level of insane loot modifiers on them, or even buffing them, however, make them unaffected by atlas passives, this would disable the insane scaling with B2B, make them a unique experience and keep them at their desired role as being a pathway to ubers, and in turn, increase the drop rate of T17s
I also like your idea of making other content in the game that is at the level of (or higher than) pinnacle bosses drop uber fragments, but i think it should be at a far less drop rate than T17s.
i tried one t17 map with seemingly doable mods and got destroyed right away ended up using all portals to kill 2 packs lol, and my build was by no means weak. so i just gave up even trying, i leeched a t17 map completion and just sold all i found from then on (expecting replies to be "get gud" etc, so if you are going to say it, no need to, i don't want notifications)
There's pretty shocking variance in them based on the packs that spawn, Necropolis mods and the like. If you had a common monster pack with a T6 or T7 Necropolis mod and an inherently dangerous monster I could see your experience happening.
I suggest trying Fortress though. It's way more accessible than the others.
@@sirgog I might do, thanks. I am a filthy casual as they say lol. Good luck to you
non uber bosses feel shit especially eater and exarch ( exarch has 1 okish unique outside of jewels that rarely drop while eater just drops nothing)
Jewels are everything in those fights. It's kinda like Cortex in that regard - one real drop.
@@sirgog and thats why it feels like shit doing 20-24 maps for nothing feels bad. elder feels better i only need to do 4 maps for 1 dopamin drop chance. shaper would feel better if he drops watchers eyes too... now normal shaper only has the uber elder fragment and the flask ( shaper fight takes to long to feel worth doing in my oppinion)
Why not change Uber bosses in such a way that they still need the non Uber key to enter. This allows for the people who can’t run Ubers but still run guardian maps or do map rush to still make some decent money the Uber shards can still come from t17s. The non Uber bosses now are completely meaningless.
Most of the non-Uber bosses are in a far better place than last league.
Maven: drops boots (early), Awakened gems (late)
Uber Elder: drops Watcher's Eye (all league)
Shaper: drops flask (early/mid), UE entry token
Cortex: F
Eater/Exarch: drops Forbidden jewels (all league)
Sirus: drops Thread of Hope (early/mid)
6/7 are worth running on non-Uber now. Last league, 2/7 (Shaper, Uber Elder) were worth running on non-Uber
If you can beat 16s but not 17s, selling bulk 17s is pretty lucrative too.
i really hope t17 b2b barrel farm stays, havent had so much fun with a strat - simple - fast and rewarding.
it might be too challenging for some people, but that doesnt mean that people who can do them dont deserve it to be able to do so.
make uber fight access a bit like with kirac missions, you get a few tries a day and you can farm for more if you want to, that way the economy wont get flooded by people who make 500 fights a day and you dont have to gate the bosses for those who cant run t17 and dont want to farm hundreds of those maps. problem fixed. also i absolutely hate t17, it was the worst decision ever, they will not get my money anymore cause what i liked was bossing and i was not able to even try all bosses this league compared to last league when i did hundreds
I gave up on this league faster than any other league in my PoE history (since beta). Everything about the game annoys me and I was fine with it all until this league. The T17s really doubled/tripled down on the whole "kill or be killed" over tuning of the game. If you can offscreen and mass delete the creatures, cool. If not, good luck you better have one of the few niche super tanky builds. It's just not fun. The new bosses are terrific. But they are gated behind crap content I have 0 desire to do. And now with the "redular" ubers behind many T17 runs (if SSF) ... I just didn't even bother.
It doesn't help that necropolis made everything extra rippy, so I am willing to try it one more league maybe. I'm just burnt out on the PoE1 "balance". It's way out of control. And the fact that GGG doesn't understand it, make me lose faith in PoE2.
man I'm a ""new"" player, this is my 4th league and I can't still figure out what boss instance am I summoning, I hate this confusing ass names. Just drop in the description "UBER SHAPER" or something like this, why the fuck I would care about the name of the instance instead of the name of the boss
I have no issues with T17 and Uber bosses. My trapper is tanky and has nearly 4bil dps. I had issues with how boring this league is and how annoying is to farm those fragments when I farm those frags myself. The redeeming feature was how cool and refreshing T17 bosses are. Rolling maps is dogshit. Also not sure what was wrong with Massive Thread of Hope. I stopped playing this shit league 2 weeks ago, but since start of Uber Sirus my aim was to double corrupt them anyway as I was farming Alva and vaal chamber was popping every few maps. Recent one sold for ~30div. Anyway, what is good for me not as good for others and vice versa I guess. Also fuk B2B over 30 patches this league.
I was super excited for this patch but frankly I think I'm done with POE1. They keep raising the ceiling and making weaker content more worthless after they spent so many patches killing midgame crafting options and the like. This means that it's pointless to play offmeta in weaker content because both your profits and power gain are choked. I don't feel incentivized to get better at making builds, instead I feel like I should just buy a bunch of these new OP uniques to skip to the hard content.
50c+ to roll T17 not so fun, needing multiple regex not so fun, the mods on T17 need changing, hard yes, so many mods utterly brick you no
That's back to basics. Rolling T6 maps with B2B has a lot of bricks too.
Once it's gone (and it will be gone next league, any league it is in will flop) the T17 mod pool is fine, with one or two problem mods.
I clicked this thumbnail faster than anything I've ever clicked in my life
t17 boss harder than uber bosses kekw
honestly, the game feels like more of a mess than ever before 😂
Worst League by far! Nice Vid!
Never do anything that blizzard does.. please, for the love of god, dont turn PoE into D4 or WoW.. GGG will likely figure out a better way, as I am sure they don't want the player drop off that this league had. Im not sure if they'll figure it out by next league, but Im sure they'll get a good system asap.
Also, is it actually called uber and uber uber elder? I thought they had different names and those were just player given names?
I think the dropoff this league is partly due to 3.23 burning people out - all the FOMO players went berserk in that league - and partly because of something the POE playerbase never likes admitting, and that is that deterministic crafting kills player engagement. Harvest was unpopular by 2020 standards, Necropolis by 2024.
@sirgog let me disagree with you, drop off this league is nothing to see with 3.23 ! Drop of come from multiple insanely bad situational problem management and extremely poor decision making from ggg ! So what I refer with this is in some cases few people are allowed to bug exploit and get away with it and print literally print currency, then the rest can go f..... them selfs ! If you alow it for few allow it for everyone! This for me is example of extremely and insanely bad situational management and decision making or is intended!? Anyway entire poe future especially for me laying in 3.25 , I have invested as support so far near 10 000 pounds!! If ggg doesn't care about people like me and investments that we do they can keep the direction they are headed to and will just move my financial support to other game ! Is easy like this 😊. If they send me to f... off I can send them too.
@@vevabg 3.23 was everything you hated about people exploiting bugs for currency too - remember the obvious bug (active all league!) where abyssal spires multiplied their loot based on the number of projectiles monsters could fire?
This league had its issues but 3.23 was a complete dumpster fire. At least GGG learned from it & actually did some mid-league emergency fixes to the worst rubbish this time.
@@sirgog is exactly opposite , people love it 😀 player retention speak by it itself! And people love it because was for all !!! Not the chosen ones! What they learned?! I see disaster of a league with worst player retention , if this is how they learn and react ohhh boy ! Speaking about chosen ones , in my eyes this worst than the blizzard pay to win situation few years ago! Why is worst because ggg unofficially do ingame allow to get rich for some people !!!!! Is this fair , is this a good, is this what they learned, isn't the most important to keep the 99% your player base happy ?!
T17 maps are harder than uber bosses by a mile. It took me quite some time to be able to do the T17 maps, and I wasn't able to do one before getting a mageblood. I don't think the gearing up should take something like a mageblood to be able to complete them. Now I'm not the most skilled player ever, but still, I remember them in the patch announcement saying these are "warm up" maps before you challenge the uber bosses. Definitely not the case with this 3.24. The most frustrating thing for me personally though was that they gated the 5th map slot behind being able to complete a T17. IMO they need to do something different with that 5th map slot unlock, either move it to something besides T17 maps or lower the difficulty of T17s.