It makes a lot of sense that Marika banished the tarnished as a way of sparing them from the effect of destined death's removal. Honorable death was seen as the most fitting end for a warrior, rather than withering away into obscurity like the denizens of the lands between. Lively vigor, after all, is symbolized by the color red. So a life without death is a life without vigor (energy, strength, power, vitality). It helps bring the grace of gold's unnatural resurrection of the tarnished into stark clarity as a curse and helps explain why a tarnished is needed to return balance to the lands.
yall are making her out to be way too nice. Hitler also spared certain jews and used them as men to gather other jews and then slaughter them all in an big easy barrel of his making. This is a similar tactic hunters use when allowing certain animals back into their herd in order to follow them to the source. Marika is not a good person no matter what and i am betting money this is confirmed in the DLC. No woman can sacrifice this many of her own children and not be fucked up at her absolute core
That's what I believe as well. WIth that in mind, I assume being divested of his Grace might even have been Godfrey's wish. It does put in question Marika's motives though, as with everything else in this game, she really seems to be of two minds. Why remove Death if the idea is to bring it back down the line, and on the other hand, why set up the Tarnished to come back if she truly believes in her Order ?
I think the elden beast demonstrated the power of grace to tempt Marika to be his vessel. it's an alien sent to take over the planet after all. The erd tree is a hybridization of the EB with something able to multiply and project grace. The whole religion thing is a lie to get the victims to willingly go along with it. Grace initially makes you strong and immortal, but eventually the real truth comes out - the grace given is always returned to the tree, and the cycle continues until the world is just the EB and the tree. When Marika realized this is when SHE set in motion the events that would lead to the shattering, potentially eventually freeing her and the planet from this parasitic alien. The endings are all variations she probably would be ok with EXCEPT the mending ending...
This video is talking about Elden Ring lore trigonometry while two playthroughs later, I still haven't even figured out Elden Ring lore addition and subtraction.
On the topic of "was the Erdtree originally red, or much more red", it's worth noting that pure gold is technically slightly reddish yellow in color. Also notable is that ancient dragons wielded red lightning. And maybe this is looking too deep, but it's interesting that the most common alloys of gold are with copper and silver. Pure copper is copper red, and as gold is diluted with copper its color becomes more reddish. Pure silver is white, and as gold is diluted with silver it becomes yellow and then a pale greenish yellow. When gold is diluted by both copper and silver it becomes yellowish. Godfrey is somewhat associated with copper, particularly the weapons of himself and his warriors before becoming elden lord / aligning with the Erdtree. The Carians are somewhat (indirectly) associated with silver, relating to the eternal cities and Nox, and Albinaurics,
Regarding Erdtree burial, it's a practice that lived on to the Shattering at least. This to me suggests that it's always been practiced, even while the Rune of Death was sealed. I imagine a society where people died when they felt ready to, relinquishing life to be born anew through the grace of the Erdtree. Similar to Numenor in Tolkien's works.
Farum Azula has been crumbling since "time immemorial" and was ripped into the sky then hit by a meteorite to boot. The plants there might just be ordinarily distressed rather than having a sort of Crucible redness to them, and a handful of Farum Azula's remaining plants actually keep their green coloration.
I 100% agree, that Golden Order was founded after Godfrey's banishment. And Radagon was the one who created the Golden Order, or maybe, the key component for creating it. But I don't think, that Erdtree was once red. We have paintings of Erdtree, and it appears to be yellow. I think Grace being red is about the "Pre Erdtree Age". And only with Marika's Elden Ring, with Marika's Order, it becomes a goldish color. Like Marika has blond hair (which is 金髪, Golden Hair) Maybe there were great trees before Erdtree, like Crucible Tree or something, which were red.
Tons of interesting nuance here, but it can be easy to get lost in the weeds and miss the forest for the trees. Sometimes it can help to take a step back and look at the themes. They're as open as ever, but here's my interpretation: Fate in all its forms (including dd) is simply the course of nature. The golden order represents the dominant societal ethos with all its beliefs, norms, exclusions, and hierarchies. Grace represents the roles/expectations forced on individuals by society. The tarnished are explicitly military veterans tossed aside by society after the conquest was over, only to be called back to service and denied rest once Marika eventually had another use for them. Magic/int represents science/study. As with all souls titles it's characterized as fundamentally right about the world, but dangerous and ripe for abuse. Faith represents religion. It's characterized as kind on the surface but a tool of those in power and ultimately somewhat misguided about the nature of the world. Marika's original order was based in faith, but incorporated science/scholarship after being exposed to the Carian's magic. Marika's Golden Order tried to resist the course of nature by excluding death (leads to rot and ruin in Miyazaki games ie DS3, Sekiro). Radagon holding back the stars is also emblematic of resisting the course of nature. Death rune is removed and weaponized. Marika tries to create a perfect society, though it exterminates those outside its order. The demigods are immortal, and regular mortals are consumed by the Erdtree when they pass, subsumed by the societal order in life and in death. Those outside the order (the nomads, those who live in death, he misbegotten, albinaurics etc) represent oppressed groups. Fire giants etc represent other nations/ideologies that are conquered and consumed or destroyed. Ranni, who seems to represent a scientific/technocratic ethos, rebels, steals death and kills a demigod for the first time. She targets Godwyn, who seems to be the golden child, the epitome of everything the golden order represented. Despairing at the failure of her perfect order, Marika shatters the Elden Ring. Without order, society collapses. The powerful war to impose their vision on the world, leading to massive destruction. The player arrives. The game shows them all the wonders that were built under the previous order, and all the horrors it inflicted. Shows them the destruction wrought by a world without order, and that wrought by those seeking to impose one. Ultimately the player defeats all opponents and, imposing their will through struggle and violence, and the game asks them what sort of world they seek. Melina: "Share them with me, your thoughts, your ambitions, the principles you would follow." As Dark Souls sought to give the player the experience of struggling against inevitability, Elden Ring seeks to give the player the experience of questioning society and hierarchy and pursuing their own ideals. Anyway I'm probably wrong about half of this and there's a billion things I didn't cover, but it's a start.
It’s pretty fun to look at how well all these themes are implemented in the game, but don’t forget, the drama in the story is also *really* fun. Repeatedly going “No… she did WHAT?” as you find out Marika forced her first husband off the continent, then sent a new dude champion to marry a threatening queen, only to have him divorce *her*, bring him back home, and marry him. That stuff is wild and hilarious. I’m really hoping we get more “Marika did WHAT?” moments in the dlc.
31:57 i actually had the opposite take away. The Golden Order must have already existed, because otherwise there'd be nothing to study. She's not saying its time to create a Golden Order, she's saying its time to leave behind the early days of blind faith in it, which seems to suggest it predates that statement by quite a bit.
I definitely believe that Grace at one point took on a reddish hue, much like the wisps we see in the Mountaintop of the Giants. Not to mention the constant references to unalloyed gold, which is reddish in hue. Would make sense that the pure, unalloyed grace of old would be red when you consider all that.
Unfortunately, unalloyed gold tends to be more yellow than red in the way it's depicted. The outlier is the amber jewel found in Loretta's glaive, but even in her concept art, it's yellow
I think Radagon may literally be the manifestation of the Golden Order itself. His character represents the idea that a sufficiently powerful ideological system cannot simply be destroyed, even by it's own creator. The system takes on a life of it's own (literally, in the case of Radagon) and will strive to perpetuate its own existence like a living thing.
That's an interesting take on Radagon! Personally, I saw it more like Radagon trying to declare that he's the Golden Order itself as part of his insecurity. One of Radagon's character traits is apparently feeling incomplete, no doubt because he's literally a fragment of Marika that was splintered off and made into a separate person with his entire origin hidden. Trying to become the Golden Order itself might be Radagon's ultimate way to have a sense of belonging and feel properly integrated with society.
I kinda agree with everything you said, about the red gold and possibly red grace. We know that the Elden Ring is the source of both Grace and the Golden Order that was enforced upon the Lands Between and certainly (the whole world or planet its on). So since Marika is some sort of statue of no clear conscience by the end of our journey, who did restored our Grace as Tarnished ? I can accept that it was the Two Fingers of Round Table, but they were unsure of what to do when they learned that Radagon has gone rogue, to some extend, by sealing the way to the audience room. The incantation timeline is very relevant to explain some things, but we lack some answers about Grace and the fact that the GW has abandonned or not the Lands Between. But since the guidance of the Fingers became corrupted or distrusted by many (as Varré), it is still possible that Marika, even after the Shattering, is still controling the giving of Grace to the Tarnished. I said that to point one of many holes in the current lore, and I hope that we'll learn some more things about Marika and the Numen in the DLC.
I find it weird how ancient dragons were never mentioned in this video, considering it's stated that their original gold was/is red tinted and we can see it in their lightning. Also the Erdtree being fleeting at first but made eternal later really reminds me of Tarnished Archeologist's video about the Erdtree having been burnt during the shattering and the current Erdtree being an object of faith and just an illusion seen by those who can see the guidance of Grace. The only still existing part is being the stump we can see after Morgott's / Godfrey's bossfight.
Fair enough. I do go into a lot of depth about that in my video on Gold and Silver, and this one was focused more on grace specifically, but maybe I should have brought it up. I figured it was already long enough as-is, lol
Regarding the ancient dragons and reddish-gold, I've heard that early goldsmithing struggled to remove every impurity, so ancient gold could often look slightly red. Perhaps this influenced the ancient dragons' red lightning, and it might be why only Placidusax can seemingly create gold lightning without the help of others. Even then, Placidusax's gold lightning only surrounds his arena before battle and in Phase 1.
I think the erdtree's perfection is like plastic flowers😂 As in, the actual erdtree died and spread its seeds closing the age of abundance, then, was replaced by a new illusory erdtree that can never age or die. Perfect and eternal. Though now it can't benefit the realm with its sap, it became merely an object of faith.
I used to think this because of the spectral saplings and the way you can kind of see thru branches but when the erdtree burns ash covers leyndell. HOWEVER- there is also already a quarter of the city that still is ash covered BEFORE we burn the tree.... So... The tree has been burned before, meaning maybe the top of the tree is an illusion but the trunk is still there and real.
There's in-game evidence the physical erdtree extends up to the canopy. So it's not a stump before the frenzy ending. Still, I think the spell on it is designed to hide how ugly the tree has become.
@NickCombs a stump is all that's left by the time we become lord and finish the game. But that's a good bit after the fire giant fight when it starts burning, and the capital gets covered in its mountains of ash as we fight maliketh and beat him.
In regards to placing when destined death was removed/sealed, you really have to wonder when it came under the control of the Erdtree in the first place. The sword monument near Caelid's smoldering church reads, "Lord Godfrey, at last at the end of his campaign; His golden armies unvanquished and unbowed; Yet finds grace lost, tattered and faded;" If there were still other societies/powers to conquer, then its possible that destined death may not have even been under the control of the control of the Erdtree until rather late in Godfrey's campaign.
I like that thought, but one big problem with this is that because it's the "Rune" of Death, and it was in the Elden Ring, it would necessitate being under Marika's control when she and Godfrey subjugate the Lands Between. Despite a few descriptions hinting at it, we're not given a direct timeframe for the birth of the Erdtree, but it should have been around by the end of the War Against the Giants at the very least. If Godfrey continued fighting after the War, that's fine, but he and Marika would presumably have had control over the Ring by then.
Here's my whacky headcanon, which will undoubtedly be proven wrong with Shadow of the Erdtree: Marika waged war against the fire giants before the Golden Order's founding, hence why the Giant Slayer Hero's grave is decorated with Two Fingers banners rather than Golden Order ones. The bulwark that is the Fire Monks was founded and in their stewardship they came to worship the flame. This set her directly on the path, as Empyrean, to become the next god vessel of the Greater Will. Godfrey became the first Elden Lord of the new order during the Age of the Crucible, a time of red tinted grace, as evidenced by his personal guard in the form of the Crucible legion as well as the births of Mohg and Morgott. However, Godwyn was also born, prodigy and the (pardon the pun) golden child of Marika, the apple of her eye. This is all happening in the transitional event when the Crucible bloomed into becoming the Erdtree, a process depicted through several statues of a priestly figure cradling a single bud out of many on a stump covered in wild sprouts representative of the chaotic sprouting of life and strongly resembling Siluria's Tree. The rise of the Erdtree saw the founding of the tradition of Erdtree burial, a new way of handling the death-life cycle of the world. Somewhere around this time, all of this invited the ire of the Gloam Eyed Queen. Much of the history surrounding her is lost, possibly forever, and we know many as of yet unnamed demigods likely died at her hand, so I'm not sure what pissed her off so bad. Possibly that she, who could have been the god of prior Elden Lord Placidusax, was then tangentally associated the Death Rite Birds, a rivaling and more ancient form of death-life cycle, or maybe through the occupation of Leyndell which was once bestial fief under the draconic empire of Farum. A war was waged in which Marika came out victorious through the removal of the rune of Death from the Elden Ring, rendering the godslaying flames diluted, after which the dragons retaliated but a peace treaty was formed through the actions of Godwyn the Golden in his battle against Fortissax. Perhaps the Erdtree was yet burned, however, leading to Leyndell being covered in ash as we find it, yet with the binding of Destined Death it was not permitted a proper death. Decrepit and shriveled, a golden illusory tree was established around its husk to keep up appearances, yet the end of the Age of Plenty was not so easy to mask: the Erdtree no longer secreted the blessed dew it once granted its believers. Furthermore, it lead to even further unforseen consequences in the form of those that live in death and the stagnant deathroot. It's from here that history is a bit clearer: night of the black knives, death of Godwyn and the Shattering War. Marika being Numen, the ancestors of the Nox, represents a completely different culture than that of her kin. Their attempt at scientifically creating their own lord was the sin that banished them from the Eternal City of Leyndell to the recesses of the underground. Perhaps this was motivation for their plot? A percieved retaliation of sorts? Godwyn's death struck a hard blow and Marika's attempts at creating a new prodigy ended in utter failure with the inbreeding of Malenia and Miquella, both cruel satires of the eternal life Marika had strived towards establishing. That's pretty much all I got so far. Maybe there could be a nugget of inspiration in there to new theories in the lore community.
The editing choice to make the starting notes of the Limgrave track repeat while talking about the Law of Regression made me smile. Fantastic video, all around! Another great resource for the community
I would have to agree that the Erdtree existed for a time before the War against the Giants, probably known as the Great Tree or the Crucible interchangeably such as is the case with the Erdtree and the Elden Ring. The Giants commit their transgressions and fall to Godfrey. Feeling full of vigor Marika begins her conquest of the rest of the lands between. Some time near the end of this conquest I would have to argue that the era of the Golden Order and The era of the Erdtree began a distinct period of overlap where the first burning of the Erdtree took place and Marika began to plan the return of the Tarnished. Something that I've come to realize is that nothing Miriel says is to be taken for granted and that he speaks of the world in literal factual terms. Concepts are mirrored in strange ways in Elden Ring. In the way that Miquella and Ranni have mirrored each other and their escape of destiny under the Erdtree; I've come to view Radagon and Godrick as mirrored concepts of each other. I have always wondered the significance of grafting in its concepts. Order of Rot? Easy to understand that cycle of death and rebirth but grafting? what's the endgame for that? I would argue that Radagon's marriage to Rennala was an act of cosmic scale grafting. He conjoined the fate of the Golden Order and The Stars, but note that they are not 'fused' they still retain separate identities for the sake of people like Ranni and even Miquella as children of Radagon. In terms of a time line I would have to argue that first Radagon marries Rennala and has his DemiKids that grow during the Era of Godfrey, then in short order, the Rune of Death is removed beginning the Golden Order, the Tarnished are created and banished(by stripping them of Grace their fate under the Golden Order is technically stripped too), Radahn freezes the stars in regards to the Starscourge, Radagon is called back to marry Marika. Now ask yourself what does Radagon do as Elden Lord? He grafts HIS sigil onto the Elden Ring! He then has twin DemiKids one representing a cycle of change(Outer God) and the other of an unchanging nature(Golden Order). Finally we have the DLC where we must kill Radahn to free fate to meet Miquella who has divested himself of Gold. So what does he have left? His fate under the stars that he inherited from Radagon the same as Ranni.
You bring good insight! But back to your first para: I too agree that the “Erdtree was born” after the Giants were felled, but the tree was still existing as a separated name. But I find it VERY interesting that Miyazaki says the Erdtree was born in the Shadow Lands *AND* it’s where Marika became a god. Now obviously, we don’t have enough context (the game comes out in 2 months), but I align the birth of the Erdtree with the death of the Giants… but Miyazaki mutually ties both events (Marika’s god status and the Erdtree birth) within the same sentence. Obviously we’ll learn how she became a god, but i think it’s fun to speculate: I initially thought that Marika became a God after creating the Golden Order with the removal of DD. But it would equally make, if not more, sense that to become a god she had to defeat the previous/more superior God figure of the Lands Between - and perhaps this God figure w was defeated around the time of the campaign of the Mountaintops?? I’m rambling lol, just speculating having fun
I think one effect of the condensed Rune items could be an additional link between the star-related fates and what runes represent. When you break them, not only does the animation show off golden runes being absorbed, but little blue glintstone-looking pieces are produced, which quickly fade. It could be that a part of the metaphysical structure of runes involves glintstone, which would mean fate is a structural component.
The Grace of Old seems like a poetic way of refering to the first vision granted to the Tarnished by Marika. The Greater Will by its Grace(favor) gives Guidance(duty/purpose) to Tarnished. As for the Moon and stars and fate/karma, we know that light(from them) seems to control or nudge people, and the moon may be a "star shepherd". Lastly, there is a Golden Star in a starter shield, which represents the Pole Star, the fixed axis of heaven, that may be related somehow to the gold star that brought the Elden Beast/Ring to the lands. Know to wait for the DLC . . .
great video! your narrative is always self-driven enough that it never seems like checking the japanese materials is over-meticulous. my two cents on "duty or curse?" is that curso is the latin word for "run"
So in short, red-tinged life power is the true life power that contains both life and death as a cycle. The golden life power is an incomplete one, with death(red) removed and only life(gold) left whtinin. Thus the ones who related to the golden power are unable to die, e.g. The Tarnished.
I'm not 100% sure if gold is life implicitly since things like Miquella's Unalloyed Gold Lillies are "wilted," but with dragon hearts continuing to beat vivaciously, it very well could be the case. It's annoying that Miyazaki says the immortality of the Tarnished is _not_ due to Destined Death being removed, lol. Maybe the DLC will elucidate more
@@LastProtagonist I'd argue a better way to phrase it is that Gold represents Order, in this context meaning structure, complexity, persistence and, when misused, stagnation. All very important aspects of life, and a fairly accurate way to define an "immortal soul" in broader RL beliefs. Destined Death seems a bit narrow but ultimately represents Change, or at least the change inherent in the rebirth cycles of Eastern mythologies. An automated assembly line is incredibly complex, and like an ever-beating dragon heart it is not static in time, but we would never consider the former to be a living being. Why? It doesn't _change_ it just repeats the same process over and over, human operators enact the changes (well, and the slow creep of entropy which we don't like to think about). Scarlet Rot is _UTTERLY HORRIFYING_ because it is in itself a force of change, but caught in eternal stagnation under the Golden Order. It is not "just" cancer, it is like a cancer which constantly grows and dies off in equal measure, but also unable to properly kill anything it consumes. By contrast the Tarnished _CAN change!_ They alone still hold the power to break the cycle, they can grow and develop in different ways, support the Golden Order or defy it and cast it aside entirely. But they are not free, chained by the Grace of Gold and guided towards some kind of purpose or duty, and only those Tarnished who still see the Grace are immortal. Presumably at least part of this function was or still is controlled by Marika so there will be some overlap in timing and intent, but to me the distinction is that the removal of Destined Death "blindly" alters the flow of the greater system as a whole (or rather halts it tbh) whereas Grace creates a very specific flow with directed intent. I believe for Grace to exist it still requires a ruler who places "Order" above "Death" in an unnatural fashion but with appropriate sacrifices elsewhere it could even be possible in a zero-sum cosmos where Destined Death is not yet confined.
It seems like the Golden Order’s creation (removal of DD) was necessitated only AFTER bloodshed (era represented by Godfrey). Godfrey’s conquest was primarily meant to enforce the order of the Erdtree on the lands by Killing all and every enemy. Once the threats were felled, Death is then removed (order represented by Radagon) - hence, begins the culture of the immortal sacrifice in Erdtree Burial to grant life to this NEW era of the Erdtree (represented by the Golden Order and Radagon, as opposed to Godfrey). Fantastic video btw! I liked how definitive you were in drawing direct evidence as an essay around grace, Erdtree and the Elden Ring
Regarding Scarlet Rot, I'm fairly certain it was a problem in the past, as the scorpion form of the Outer God had to be defeated and sealed by the Blind Swordsman in Blue.
@LastProtagonist Marika's Empire seemed very uninterested, I suspect, in history outside of itself. The Lake of Rot might not be well known to the Lands Between at large. That would be an interesting topic: what does the average citizen of the Lands Between know or "know" about the world? What would a reasonably learned person know? What information would be completely unknown to anyone except the players who can read obscure item descriptions?
Man that sure was a lot of talk of people’s duties in the beginning. To quote Nacho Libre, “Maybe I am not meant for these duties. Cooking duty. Dead guy duty. Maybe it's time for me to get a better duty!”
It is a missed opportunity in changing Destined Death from purple to red. Purple is the complimentary color to yellow (or gold) and when mixed together with yellow purple creates brown, or the color of the tree upon which the Erdtree has been grafted. That would explain why removing the Purple of Destined Death would make it yellow/gold. Alas, the Art student in me is disappointed.
This more or less aligns with the timeline I've had in my head, but is more comprehensively laid out (with the elements of "fate" and the stars discussed here being a new facet for me).
A question I've long had that you would be the one to answer: what does the Arcane stat mean in the original Japanese? It governs a number of bizarrely unrelated things (Regalia of Eochaid?), so I suspect knowing the original name might she'd some light.
神秘 - shinpi - "arcane," occult, mystic, divine secret, etc. I have a video talking about the lore of Bloodborne where I go into the meaning behind this word in great detail. It's called something like The Divine Secret of the Eldritch Truth, but I don't think it does a whole lot to explain its implementation into Elden Ring.
Does it govern anything that would not be accurately described as "heretical" from the perspective of the Golden Order? Ideally not just "outside" it but directly opposed to it or its ideals.
@@Photoloss Dragon Communion, whose seal uses Arcane, does not seem inherently heretical. The original Japanese description of Magma Wyrms implies more of a "flew too close to the sun" than a sin against Marika. And neither Godskin incantations nor Fire Giant incantations use Arcane.
Interesting that you imagine Grace having a reddish hue, since you can see traces of what appears to be red guidance of Grace in the forbidden lands. Is that what makes them forbidden? Because they hide the true nature of the Erdtree and Grace?
Looking at the scene of Godwyn's death once more made me wonder if the assassination happened in the Erdtree? The fog on the image made me think of the scene where the Tarnished arrive to the Lands Between and where you fight the final boss. Plus the Erdtree is in Leyndell so it's certainly a possibility. Thanks for the video!
Notes: Yes. As Far I could gather, Godfrey helped Establish the Reign of Marika through War. While the Faith in the Erdtree was there; And Marika's Godhood (or the fact she was an Empyrian) was also established; Death was necessary for her to get rid of their enemies. She Ordered an assalt on the Giants, Radagon Married Renala to stop the Liurnian Wars, The Gloam-eyed Queen is defeated along side their godskins apostles, Godfrey killed the King of the Storm and THEN he is removed from grace, Maliketh is removed from Marika's side and protects the Rune of Death that is also removed from the Elden Ring. It gives the impression that the Establishment of Leyendel and the culture of Golden Order and stuff only happens with Radagon as Elden Lord. Godfrey was there just to wage war.
@@eldenringpvpenthusiast1710 the amount of hours trying to understand this shit is probably unhealthy. The lest I could do is explain this in fewer words :v
I thought that what you said about the Golden Order starting with Radagon was commonly accepted at this point. I guess I don’t know what people are thinking, but I totally agree with you on that. Love the little nuances the Japanese brings to things too.
(I agree with you that the Rune of Death was not removed with the formation of the Erdtree and Marika's ascension. Most likely, it was removed when the Age of Plenty came to a close, perhaps just after the Erdtree was set ablaze. This would presumably but not necessarily be after the 1st and 2nd Liurnia Wars, which I believe happened significantly after the Erdtree had been established [as I would guess the narrative suggesting that Godfrey lost his grace the moment there were no sufficient enemies to challenge him remaining is a mythic exaggeration that fails to reflect the brief age of prosperity that would follow thereafter]. Radagon's rise to prominence happened while Godfrey was still there, after all, according to the Turtle Pope, and he joins Marika as consort almost immediately after Godfrey's banishment Now, we also know that Godfrey would have stayed in the Lands Between until the Age of Plenty was basically over, given his omen children with Marika, given the Omen Blood Curse seem to be reflective of the Erdtree's decline in sap production and instability in the whole, "Bury, Soul Recycle, Rebirth" process. As such, we might even suggest that the order of events is as follows: Godfrey and His Warriors Are Tarnished -> The Erdtree Burns [probably at the hands of The Gloam-Eyed Queen and/or Messmer?] -> Radagon Is Taken as Consort [possibly because Marika was left vulnerable without an Elden Lord, and her last line of defense, Maliketh, had to be deployed in order to stop the state of emergency]. I would also argue that it is possible that Destined Death only actually came into being during the Gloam-Eyed Queen's Godskin Apostasy, and that it is at least theoretically possible that it was only ever briefly in the Elden Ring, starting just before Maliketh slew the Gloam-Eyed Queen. If that is actually the case, it is possible that Marika actually briefly died during this conflict, and Radagon was brought to become Marika's Elden Lord specifically so he could remove the Rune of Death and add his scaffolding as a Mending Rune in order to bring Marika back to life and functionality. This could be how the tree became one of golden radiance, and how the Golden Order began. It could also perhaps explain why the two of them are sharing a body: he might have chosen to sacrifice his bodily autonomy as an ultimate act of faith in order to preserve his goddess and the religion to which he had dedicated himself. Of course, this paragraph above is rife with conjecture, regardless of the validity of the ones before it. Also: I see no strong evidence that Destined Death actually *was* present in the Elden Ring before the Erdtree/before Marika rose to power. It kills both soul and body, and previous cultures very clearly believed [and had evidence for] souls lingering at the body until Ghostflame separated them and they were able to be either guided to a special "lampwood" that let them into the world of spirit or they became vengeful spirits. Erdtree Burial also recognizes this lingering soul phenomenon, and exists because the soul can be resorbed into the tree's roots and then be transferred to a new body thereafter, possibly via a body being literally grown on the branches and then the soul being transmitted to it via a holy sacrament caried out by Marika and/or the Perfumers that served her-- let's call it "Erdtree Baptism" [a process which is seemingly depicted via the Blessing of the Erdtree talisman]. Given Melina's comments on Boc's situation with her mother, mind, it is quite possible that the process does not in fact involve pregnancy. None of this would be possible if Destined Death actually was part of the Elden Ring for a long period of time, unless it functions differently while in said array of many runes than it does when wielded outside of it, which strikes me as unlikely. Oh, erm, also: the Catacombs were probably there before Marika rose to power in any respect, and were likely specifically created with the arrival of the Numen, who then spread across the continent, with some of them becoming the Astrologers in the Mountaintops of the Giants. They seem to have likely originally had a burial practice which involved burying the dead, or to have carried this practice forward from natives who were already on the continent (perhaps the Beastmen, who clearly did so as evidenced by Farum Azula), but one of the major reasons why the Catacombs came into being was the internment of ashes. During this time, the Deathbirds and Deathrite Birds held great sway over the land, and their Ghostflame Cremation was a very big *thing.* Ghostflame seems to have some strong association with underground spaces, which is probably why these housed ashes were held underground. At some point, they also started including and carving out spaces for coffins in those great mausoleums, as well. I don't think Remembrance of the Regal Ancestor is especially relevant, given it comes from a totally different culture to any of those discussed so far, and probably one descendant from a very ancient source, given where the worshipers of said beings (Ancestral Followers) live, and what their practices are. They seem to possibly even predate the arrival of the Deathbird cult, and may even be a remnant of pre-Numen human civilization. No, I do not think that the original redness of Gold relates to Destined Death at all. It certainly relates to Ancient Dragons, and their Red Lightning, but they are also immortal and eternal; thus untouched by death unless slain. Keep in mind that Destined Death is *black* and Red. It is a combination, aesthetically, of the Flame of Ruin and Ghostflame [for, note, even the sealed version which the Godskin Apostles wield is black and white like Ghostflame; just in inverted proportions]. That said, it is also worth noting that this same red seems to align with the lights in the night sky of the Mountaintops of the Giants, and with the red pulses the Tibia Mariners make when they blow their horn-paddles, so it is possible that that this means Destined Death *was* drawing on already established powers related to death. It's just that there's no strong connection between that and Grace or Gold, as far as I can tell. The Gold that the Elden Ring/Beast, Ancient Dragons, and Greater Will in general are connected to seems to have a nature which stands in contrast to death and the Rune related to it. That they both have a reddish coloration does seem *odd,* mind you, but all the red-gold stuff seems to be related to the Crucible Era, or to the era/s before it, which would put it as too early for the shift to reflect the removal of the Rune of Death, unless this was possibly a specific change made by Radagon to create a sort of intentional visual deviation from any death related themes at all. In which case, I have to laugh, because that means he might have been partially driven by his hatred of his hair color and the connection red had to the Fire Giants. I do agree that the whole "fate of the moon" business and Radagon's study at Raya Lucaria is suspicious, by the way [especially given his ideological bent and the fact he has a theme of wanting to bind everything together and see them flow into one]. If he *was* the one responsible for Unalloyed Gold becoming the pure yellow color we know today, then I could certainly see the argument that he might have imposed the Destiny aspect to it, though one would have to explain exactly what it was before. Why would Godfrey have had his Grace removed, in that case? Certainly, being granted this new version of the Guidance of Grace does allow for one to revive indefinitely. Those Tarnished without it seem to be very much mortal once more, but removing it and banishing him just puts him outside of the realm and presumably able to be retrieved at some pre-planned point of convenience thereafter. Yes, the [Minor] Erdtree Guardians almost definitely predate the Shattering. Specifically, they almost certainly come from immediately after the first burning of the Erdtree, which would have happened significantly before the Shattering. Probably at about the same time the Age of Plenty ended fully and the Age of the Golden Order began. Their ancient pact probably came about after the Erdtree scattered seeds across the land [which was thought to be impossible] upon its conflagration and thus sparked new life, despite the main trunk's death. Their existence was probably thought a necessary precaution in the wake of the Cardinal Sin. I do not know what you are talking about with regard to the Minor Erdtrees being destroyed. Also, Praetor Rykard is probably able to burn his Minor Erdtree due to the fact that he uncovered ancient magics left behind by Messmer, who likely is the one who built the ruins at Volcano Manor before they were ruined and his name was blotted from history in response to the Treachery of the Serpent. Maliketh's Black Blade probably has that symbol because it was the last incantation to represent that era, even if its creation may have post-dated it. It may or may not have been the case that the Ancient Erdtree remained briefly standing after Maliketh gained the ability to imbue Destined Death into his blade. And yes: the Black-Flame Monks' existence is one of the strongest reasons to argue for the Gloam-Eyed Queen's emergence and/or violent activity to be something that happened relatively late in the game. There is very, very little reason for them to have been seduced by her power if she was long since dead by the time that the war against the Fire Giants happened. As such [and given all the ways the Godskin Apostles and Nobles are characterized as seemingly a violent, insurgent force], the more reasonable interpretation has seemed to me for quite some while to be that she rebelled near the end of the Age of Plenty, and may even have been the cause for its seemingly sudden downturn.)
Worth noting that the "genesis of the Erdtree" probably refers to the Crucible, which may well have been largely red. There are strong reasons to believe that the Crucible was not the same thing as the Ancient Erdtree, which is its form *after* it was the only remnant of the Crucible's abundant sprouting, and yet was still alive. Scarlet Rot was not only a problem after Malenia was born. It's simply that it was a very old problem, which had likely been sealed away for ages (though admittedly it is unclear exactly when in the timeline this was, other than that it had already been sealed by the time she was born), and it came back like a cancer which had been in remission but became malignant once more. It seems likely that the fact Raya Lucaria is almost directly above the Lake of Rot and they are actively mining for Glintstone may well have disturbed the seal which kept the Outer God of Scarlet Rot from effecting the world, even if the plan they went with was to do so indirectly. Oh, and the (Minor) Erdtree Guardians may have spilled their own blood to enter the pact with the Erdtree's offspring, helping them to grow in the same way Miquella did with his Haligtree. That would explain why their death led to eternal life. Ah, you meant the *those* Minor Erdtrees being destroyed. The ones up north. Well, it would have to have been relatively recently, but I don't know. The one at Mt. Gelmir was probably destroyed by Rykard due to learning Messmer's magics, but I am uncertain how the other two might have been destroyed. Maybe it was Miquella, testing methods to kill fully eliminate the Erdtree proper, since he presumably wants his Haligtree to grow unimpeded? Finally: yes, I believe your overall argument is coherent enough, though I think you're overestimating how much a departure this is from established thinking. I just think you're likely wrong about Destined Death being there from the beginning. I *do* agree that there is a parallel to Gwyn's selfish impulse and Marika-Radagon's selfish desire to prolong the abundant life offered by the Erdtree; however, I think there was probably more of a crisis than that, and this probably was all the culmination of a clashing of wills between Marika, the Gloam-Eyed Queen, Messmer, and Radagon, who each probably wanted slightly different things and did their best to enact their will upon the Erdtree and the Lands Between following Godfrey's departure and the power vacuum to follow.
The impression i got from the game is that there was a different less refined "order" in the past associated with the crucible. Likely with an OG tree. Then Marika and Godfrey came along and created their own order (golden order) and conquered the lands in between. This was potencially done by grafting a new tree onto the OG tree which made it and their order florish. I believe that the 2 fingers, the erdbeast and such are the servants of a outer god like frenzy flame but order based. This entity managed to influenced Marika and to protect her "order" from outside forces she wanted to adjust her order. To do this she kicked Godfrey and the Tarnished out and with Radagon becoming Elden Lord the outer god was used to create golden order fundamentalism putting stuff into stasis (Death was removed as a concept creating DD in the first place) to ensure further outer god mettling from working but still it was not perfect and other entities like frenzied flame and rot were able to take a little bit of a hold. Marika didnt like how this went and shattered the elden ring and returned grace to the tarnished so they may stuggle and one day end the not so perfect order. Grace is just a signifier of if someone is part of the currently active "order" off the land. One really needs to differenciate between order, golden order and golden order fundamentalism. They are separate things. Golden order and golden order fundamentalism are basicly two different religions grown from the same base similar to the schism between catolic cristians and orthodox ones. Its totally GRRM stuff. Same with Radagon and Marika beeing the same person. There is an old interview of GRRM where he talks about how it always kinda stuck to him like the trinity are 3 entities that are one entitiy but not the same. In fire and ice he echoed this with the faith of the 7, where god has 7 aspects. In Elden ring its god having 2 aspects. Marika and Radagon. Golden order and golden order fundamentalism.
This is a very good "food for thought" video, very refreshing to hear interesting takes that don't go deep into conjecture to fit the author's headcanon. A lot of your points didn't sound particularly "status quo breaking" to me, but it might just be that I already saw things mostly the same way as you do. What really gives me pause is why Marika seemingly set everything up for Death to come back eventually, from the Tarnished to Hewg, to shattering the Ring and maybe being involved in the Night of the Black Knives, if she really wanted to make her Order work. I really want to see Marika as more than what Gwyn was, a force that kept the world from moving forward, but it's this apparent "change of mind" that is really hard to nail down. I will also like and subscribe since I focused on the text as opposed to the visuals.
I wonder if the paintings of the erdtree scattered around could help dating the extraction of the rune of death. In some paintings the erdtree is red and in others yellow
Grand essay!! You made the info and your reasoning clear and, to me, it answers more questions that it asks and therefore makes it more likely. Great job! *honk, honk* I assume the Grace of Old refers to the Grace given and taken away from Godfrey and the original Tarnished. And I absolutely think they were sent on their Long March before Destined Death was removed, because Marika sent them away with the intent of them dying at the end. Otherwise it suggests she knows the Elden Ring's influence doesn't reach other Lands or that she has the ability to control Death somehow and include some while the rest are excluded. Wasn't technically all Fate altered once Radahn halted/altered the movement of the stars? So this would have taken place quite sometime after the union of Radagon and Rennala. Could Erdtree Burial be a part of the current cycle of "immortality"? We can kill enemies and bosses with Destined Death locked away, so in some way their state of living changes. I suspect that a Destined Death means you die with no chance of being raised, like TWLID nor reborn somehow. Perhaps Marika's intention is that instead of continuing as chopped up remains or ash, everyone can return to life through the Erdtree Burial hence technically immortal? Part of me wonders if enemies respawning could sorta be meta-lore explained by the lack of death, but that would have to be extended to bosses as well. (Elder Scrolls Online has a really fun meta-lore quest about respawns within a dungeon tied to a broken timeline/time loop.) I hadn't pondered upon it before watching the video but the boundless growth and endless youth (life) you mentioned, if perfectly represented within the Prince of Death who is essentially a tumour of aimless growth and life. I'm not 100% sure who said this, but I think it was Quelaag, that called the light mentioned about Helphen's Steeple - the Red Grace, referring to the item description along with the red sliver of a gem upon the blade. I think that meshes well with an Age of Godfrey without Death and people seeking honourable death in battle. "The lamplight is similar to grace in appearance, only it is said that it can only be seen by those who met their death in battle." - When I first played through the game I assumed that Destined Death was removed from the Elden Ring after the Shattering and that Marika shattered it to be able to removed the Rune of Death. I know now that based on the Night of Black Knives, this isn't possible but know I really struggle to reconcile with myself a reason as to why Marika shattered the Elden Ring. This also ties together with the fact that I, during this first playthrough, thought that Marika supported Ranni in her quest to finally be able to be killed and released from her immortal imprisonment, but is flawed by the same causality as the above idea. On an emotional level, I still feel like this makes sense or I want it be to possible.
One weird thing about Radahn and the fate in the night skies is we still technically don't even know when that happened. Radagon would have presumably had to have had the Carian children before returning to Leyndell, and it's possible it still could have happened during Godfrey's watch, all things considered. Idk if I'd buy into it personally, but it *is* a possibility. I'm sure there's more to it, but for now, I kinda view Destined Death as the "natural" end of body and spirit. The Golden Order stops death of the spirit, so the souls of the dead are forced into a kind of limbo once their bodies perish. Funnily enough, in an earlier draft of the video, I had it opening to a shot of the Helphen/candletree right before the Forbidden Lands' giant skull, but I changed it so as not to betray people's expectations. Glad you were reminded of it nonetheless though
I personally believe that even after the Destined Death was sealed, people continued to live and die naturally, and only the Demigods were immortal, hence the need for graveyards and catacombs. Removing the DD simply made their spirits immortal, allowing them to return to the Erdtree after their „deaths”. „A proper death means returning to the Erdtree”. I believe that only after the Shattering people become unable to die, like wandering nobles.
I generally agree, but I think that the Rune of Death destroying souls seems unnecessary and counterproductive with the Great Rune of the Unborn. The fact that it destroys souls doesn't appear to contribute anything in the Erdtree's system.
@@nightscout9979 I don't think we have any indication that the rune of death destroys souls. It just enables people to die of old age as I understand it.
@@NickCombs Godwyn's soul was killed and it appears to be entirely absent, indicating that it was annihilated. While Castle Sol seemingly tried to bring back annihilated souls, that resulted in disaster. Some people speculate that the plan didn't work due to Radahn freezing the stars, but the ghosts don't remark on something interfering or a factor they didn't anticipate. If Castle Sol wasn't simply too weak to cause an eclipse, it could be that there were no souls to interact with, implying they were thus destroyed. While Fia also tries to revive Godwyn's soul, she seems to think that Godwyn will somehow be "reborn" as her Mending Rune, and other things imply she might be rather deranged. Fia comes from a bizarre cult that seems to believe in human sacrifice, and she created a sorcery to actively spread Death Blight, something even the undead hate. Fia also conspired to murder the far less extreme D twin when she already had one cursemark and the Roundtable Hold had a non-violence rule even the Dung Eater upheld. We can observe from places like Summonwater that the undead really do attack people indiscriminately too, so the Golden Order Fundamentalists aren't innately villainous for trying to stop the undead. Furthermore, Fia's plan is actively opposed by Fortissax, who both knows Godwyn and is suffering from the Death Blight himself, so considering all of these things, Fia might be akin to the crazy characters who foolishly support the zombies in zombie apocalypse stories. As such, Fia's idea that she can revive Godwyn's soul might have no actual basis.
@@nightscout9979 It's an interesting hypothesis, but I think it creates more questions than it resolves. If we were to assume for a moment that Godwyn's soul naturally passes on to the spirit realm (which would make sense as the destiny of death), then we could take Fia at her word without needing to disregard a lot of her story as delusion. In comparison to that, it seems much better to accept that Castle Sol failed for another reason. When we look at the in-game eclipse symbolism, it communicates an ability to drain color from the sun. We can connect this with the other elements of the sun in ER, particularly the Sun Realm which is only depicted on the shields of those who live in death. Logically, this leads to a hypothesis that Miquella is trying to remove the energy from the Sun Realm to halt deathroot. Notably, if only Godwyn's body remains in the lands between, then his soul has no part in being responsible for deathroot. To explain why Miquella failed at Castle Sol, we could use the halting of the stars and fate as you said. We could also consider it a symbol of how unstoppable deathroot is, as a clear metaphor for disease. That's certainly dark enough for a Soulsborne game.
I'm not sure I agree with all of this, but it's a very coherent theory. I want to think some more about what this means about stuff like *when the gloam eyed queen existed* and *who she was* . Were Godfrey & the Tarnished banished before or after the conflict with the gloam eyed queen ended? I suspect that Melina was the Gloam Eyed Queen (or rather that Melina is a bud of the Gloam Eyed Queen as Millicent is to Melania). So many questions. Were she and Messmer twins? Were they children of Godfrey? GEQ was the demigod who held the rune of death? An empyrean. Did she rebel after her father was banished? *Is* Godfrey the father of Melina and/or Messmer? Are they children from before Godfrey... Numen children? I think this also suggests that Radagon was made from Marika for the purpose of marrying Renala and learning what he could from her. Which, fits. The quote from Marika at 30:35 suggests to me that she's actually speaking to Godfrey + maybe her larger counsel. Telling them all "we can't just fight and destroy Raya Lucaria, we need to learn as much as we can from it. I need to. Why can't you see this?" Maybe this was the beginning of the end for the trust there, which would lead to the banishment. I think you must be completely right that the Golden Order is a post-Godfrey thing. Golden Order Fundamentalism I suspect is more likely a specific strain of the Golden Order, or a specific idea within it. Miquella and Radagon gift each other spells / ideas of Golden Order Fundamentalism. Two beings made from Marika in different ways, "pure" aka "fundamental", or at least they wanted to think. The question is what is the Golden Lineage and why is it associated with Godfrey, but still decorate itself in non-red gold? Was Godwyn the beloved child specifically because he didn't rebel?
How does Thops Barrier figures in all this? His discovery that incantations and sorceries stem from the same principle - and thus being able to devise a barrier to both - might have been a revelation that caused his murder in Raya Lucaria? Edit - btw great video as always!
Fundementists are never seperate from their faith. Normally they are people who follow a more considered or scholarly version of the faith. These groups are usually more literalist because deep study of a religious text usually leads to less devience form its tenents. Because many religions have strick laws and old fashioned ideas we think of them seperate in the modern age, but they nearly never do. Most fundamentals think they follow the same faith more correctly, more purely.
I've always took it that Destined Death was removed just before Godfrey had his grace taken. The other founding tenant of the Golden Order is that Marika is the only god. Between Godfrey, the Godskins, and even Marika herself they made that true. Destined Death would need to be in play to remove the rival gods. I think Godfrey was still around when Destined Death was removed but I think its removal is part of the reason he was stripped of grace. For someone like Godfrey battle has no meaning without death. By taking their grace Marika made them mortal and sent them away to a place where their battles would have "meaning" again.(I tend to believe that the immortality of the Golden Order only exists in the Lands Between and only to those with Grace. Liurnia's immortals are attributed to Glintstone crowns for the academia and stalled stars for Carians.)
For me it happened the following: -The primordial life existed as the complete chaos, random and unpredictable. -Marika used the power of the elden beast to harvest this chaotic power and shape it into a tree. (The primordial tree) -War of the giants, a lot of dead bodies used to feed the eardtree and make it grown -Age of Plenty, first elden lord, Godwyn the golden -Cicle of life of the tree was ending, age of plenty is gone; -A lot of ideas on how to grow ir back, mesmer want to burn it, but no one agreed -The erdtree was burned and messmer got banned -Marika and his other half comes up with the plan to create the golden order, and removes the grace of golde -The golden illusion of the tree is created with golden order fundamentalism -Death is removed, since there's no actual tree anymore and no way to do erdtree burier -As a consequence, Marika mew borns grow with curses that reflects the state of the land such as stagnation, no aging etc
Enia: Lo, behold the two fingers command you to lend 20 buck's for that sweet Godwyn NFT. Ahem, I mean, because the Elden Ring deems it so. And a berry wrap from 711. Not the one near Lyndell, for that one never has them.
Really great video, I have been thinking about some of these ideas and I agree there is a real chance the GO started with Rahdagon. But my first question is, if the tarnished were created before the Golden Order, why do they need to fight and die outside of the Lands Between, to grow strong in the face of death. Maybe the plan was to create the GO as they left, they would not be able to die otherwise? If Marika thought removing death was a good idea at the time, why does she need to plant the seeds for her tarnished army to return to unseal Destine Death in the future.
Well, if the Erdtree needed the dead to grow, then sending the Tarnished to unknown lands where they would live and die, only to be called back to the Erdtree could have been one way of trying to sustain it, but who knows
Remember the Dung Eater also took part in a similar practice that Radagon did so it's hard to consider his actions as unique. The Dung Eater also cleansed himself with celestial doo-doo
Golden order was made when maliketh defeated gloam eyed queen, and marika became the new god of the Elden ring. She sealed her nemesis’ power, the rune of death with maliketh.
I wonder, is it possible that both the death and reborth runes were removed at the same time? They are at least tangentially linked (the cycle of death and rebirth shows up a few times in lore about how the world was before the Erd tree) and if so, that would support it happening after Godfrey and the Tarnished are banished and before Radagon becomes Elden Lord. Iirc the rebirth great rune is what powers the amber egg, right? Rebirth without death is pointless, and death without rebirth is a slow extinction, so removing one without the other seems... ill advised, we'll say. 😅
i thought it was pretty common thought that the golden order was created when destined death was removed from the Elden ring and raddagon was the Elden lord at the time so that's why he is the figure head not Godfrey (28:01 for time stamp) it could be that i just came up with that but that's what i came to from the English lore I'm familiar with
"The Rune of Death goes by two names; the other is Destined Death. The forbidden shadow, plucked from the Golden Order upon its creation..." - Enia on the subject of burning the thorns (and by extension the Erdtree) Thing is we don't know who, what or IF Radagon was before the creation of the Golden Order. He could have been a mere Champion with some other shady business going on (maybe related to Messmer or the Fire Giants) who only merged with Marika after leaving Rennala and becoming Elden Lord. Or he could have been a disguise/alter ego of Marika from the start, probably created specifically to subvert Liurnia or gain access to their scholarly knowledge but possibly also repurposed from a curse placed upon Marika by the Fire Giants (red hair). Either option does beg the question what exactly Godfrey was doing to not be involved in a war with a neighbouring country, or if he was already exiled how and why Marika reigned for so long (the entirety of Radagon's marriage to Rennala!) without any Elden Lord at her side.
@@Photoloss but the golden order didn't exist until radagon stepped onto the scene, at least as far as I'm aware so wouldn't that imply that the rune of death was in the Elden ring when Godfrey was banished. that the impression i always had.
@@katwatson5781 I agree it is very likely that Destined Death was part of the Elden Ring throughout most of Godfrey's reign and possibly at his time of banishment. The question is how long and how bumpy the transition period was. In terms of plain facts the entire Liurnian War and Radagon's marriage to Rennala lie between Radagon's first appearance and his ascension to the throne of Elden Lord. The nature of his being at the time is unknown but his introduction as the leader of the forces invading Liurnia suggests that either Godfrey was still away on a different campaign (unlikely, as he definitely fought in Stormveil and Liurnia is on the way there), or else Godfrey was already exiled by this point in time. If we directly equate Radagon with the Golden Order that means Destined Death would have been removed before the Liurnian War, meaning either it was already removed when Godfrey was banished or Marika reigned without an Elden Lord at her side nor the "completed" Golden Order in its modern institutionalised form throughout the entirety of Rennala's marriage. Not impossible but if that was an option it begs the question why she even bothered to unite with Radagon at all. Especially as she would later change her mind, mock him for having "yet to become a god/her" and ultimately resolve to shatter the Elden Ring in direct opposition to Radagon.
I thought it was always obvious that the grace we see of today is not grace of previous eras. As this is the end of the age of the Golden Order. Previous ages would guide through grace a different direction/duty/fate. Since for years Marika has ruled as a god for so long as to have nigh completely erased the previous god and lord from remembrance.
i dont like that I noticed this, but what's burning in the fireplaces in the roundtable hold and the ancestral follower tablets that you can light, is not wood... It has something to do with why the fallen hawks are burning themselves, after previously being the inverted hawks. They went down to the eternal cities looking for something. But the only ones that survived converted to fallen hawks and stopped burning wood in the ancestral's woods, because the ancestral followers don't like people messing with their woods or burning the wood from the trees. I think the ancestor followers become the trees there when they pass on, and the people coming down are burning them. The ancestors only burn oils and what's in their stone tablets waiting for you to light. Whats strange is the ancestor's oil wells are very similar to the kiln of the giants, and higher up on the tablet you can light, there is a sprig growing that you can see on stone murals in Farum Azula, with strange beasts with human faces growing with them. My hypothesis, is that even though the ancestral's seem different from the culture of dragons and giants when you look at them, they actually not only have a similar culture, they seem connected from the bottom of nokron up through the lands between and giants kiln, and up even further to Farum Azula. Connected as some ascension like pilgrimage. But someone or something, not only blew up their trees and buried their culture, it may have been mimicing others to sow confusion, and create proxy wars before going to war and finishing the exhausted parties that should have been on each others side. Their is mention of a fell god, a frenzy god, and a god that fled and still waited for. I think its the same power that gets borrowed from the dragons, by the giants, who still lost the war with Marika. It seems she was not able to kill the fell god, so she imprisoned it. This prolonged and isolated imprisonment might have made the fell god the frenzy god, that hyetta mentions "what was borrowed must be returned". But the descriptions of the frenzy incantations mention attempts to control it, so it was imprisoned and being experimented on. Only one of these frenzy incantations mention having a meager success at some point in controlling the frenzied flame. The game likes to trick you with, "the nox attempted to create a lord" or "a meager victory". its like a person hired a merc(us) and is just telling us what is commonly told around these items or themes, the best way I can put it is the narrator of item descriptions is like Handler Walter to 621. My point is though the word is someone attempted to create a lord, but the nox wont tell anyone if they did, it would destroy the point of it being able to take the form of others. I like the Radagon is a silver tear theories, but I think its opposite. I think Radagon or Godwyn were the remeberance in a way to what ever fell god Marika used the image of, but got her vessel to become a god, with her apart of it. I'm pretty sure the ring got cracked like a nut when Marika got smart from tricking Rennala, removed the death nut and fed it to maliketh, and had Radagon repair the ring without death. I think most events up to the shattering was the Erdtree Faithful, even up to Miquella's childhood. His age is the time of being born to the ring being shattered, because Marika learned abouth the law of causality/regression by gaining intelligence. She knew what would happen by removing death, basically burning her old world for her eternity, which caused the shattering. It might make Marika actually eternal in the eys of Radagon, who had Marika as a god in his mind, even as he became elden lord and repaired the ring, their new order always had Marika as a god, but more like an outer god now.
This timeline doesn't work because the Rune of Death already needs to be out of the Ring for Ranni to be able to steal a shard of it to kill Godwyn (and herself.) If the GO was founded upon the removal of Destined Death, it had to happen before the Shattering and the Night of Black Knives
@@LastProtagonist nothing you say is incorrect, but death was stolen at a point, and also resealed so it would "never" escape again. The timelines that i'm still working on are based on the incantation and seal descriptions from the earliest of Erdtree Faithful to the Golden Order, which are more vague in details of time. But within the Erdtree Faithful incants are barrier of gold, used in the 1st and 2nd Liurnian wars, when Radagon joins the hero's ranks. When the union of Rennala and Radagon happens, turtle pope describes it as the joining of the Erdtree and moon, it still seems the Erdtree Faithful are the ones in Leyndell. But now Golden Order incants have some intelligence requirements, and we know Radagon learned something intelligent from Rennala. The Golden Order being founded on the removal of death could be similar to something Marika once did for her Erdtree, which was also thought to never end, but is quoted to have come swiftly to a close. This could be when Godwyn died and Ranni never gave the power back, using it to end her own fingers. She could be much older then Rykard and Radahn, trusting Rykard with some power if he ever has to fight Maliketh, who i think is a being on its own. Maliketh needs a vessel, thats it's sole need. But I think it could be that Miquella could be cursed with eternal youth at the moment the Elden Ring of the Erdtree Faithful shattered, Which Radagon could have repaired using law of regression/possibly being a blacksmith. So lets say the ancient dragons were in control of a different ring, in that is has different rules, but still contains the same programs that make those rules. The Erdtree Faithful are the ones who came to the lands between as enemies to everyone, but through countless victories, assumed control. The dragons may have lost the thing that got called the Elden Ring to The Erdtree Faithful. This could have been a shattering before the one we know but that the dragons experienced, leaving their temple ruins scattered around before most major events. But the only reason I tried to make a timeline is for understanding, not pushing my opinion. But I do feel the seals and incantations and staffs and sorceries describe royal family timelines quite well.
Regarding the Erdtree once being perfect, I think it's more likely that the perceived perfection came first. The Erdtree initially provided an age of plenty, but upon the creation of Golden Seeds, the Golden Order's faith was shaken and they downplayed the Erdtree's status. However, I feel there's a major hypocrisy at work too: Nobody doubts Marika's title of "The Eternal" despite her having kids throughout her reign. The Golden Order applies a double standard, and I feel that Golden Rune [6] might hold the answer as to why: "Those born at the foot of the Erdtree are blessed. At least, that is the enduring belief of the people of the plateau." The people of Altus Plateau, namely the original and core members of the Golden Order, believe that proximity to the Erdtree gives them an innate blessing distinct from the "lesser" blessings of the lower runes. Even the first people to serve the Erdtree, per Golden Rune [10]'s description, presumably lived in very close proximity to it as the Golden Order expanded outward from Altus. That would explain why the first people to approach the Erdtree had runes "with the most vivid coloration." Now, if the Golden Order believes that its members are superior because of their proximity to the Erdtree, the Golden Seeds jeopardize that very notion. If the Erdtree can create additional Erdtrees and spread them across the Lands Between, then people in each nation will eventually be born at the foot of an Erdtree, and these people will have the same blessing that the residents of Altus do. As such, if the people of Altus try to discredit the Erdtree's status and associate their greatness with Marika alone, then they can still claim superiority over other nations. Considering that the Erdtree is only seen as lesser because its bounties became fewer and it created seeds, it's possible that the Erdtree actually just has fruiting seasons and the periods take a while due to the Erdtree's own astronomical scale. Until the Elden Ring was shattered and the Erdtree was later burned, the source of the Erdtree's diminished reputation may have been people's resentment. As to the color of primordial gold, I think the Minor Erdtree Church might shed light on the matter. The three minor Erdtrees at the aptly-named church are in a stage of growth between the saplings with Golden Seeds and the towering minor Erdtrees that have Crystal Tears. These particular minor Erdtrees have a fainter glow and the brown of their bark can be partially discerned. This fainter gold and the brown bark may have created an orangish-red image, and the trees are similar to the Icon Shield's depiction of the major Erdtree when it was first growing. The Arteria Leaves could also be relevant to the matter of Primordial Gold. The leaves of these plants resemble exposed flesh and are said to have a faint pulse. It's almost like the Arteria is a mix of flora and fauna, and its use in the Uplifting and Bloodboil Aromatics could imply a high compatibility with living things, such as Silver Tears' husks and human blood respectively. If the Crucible was once where all life was mixed together, then the fledgling Erdtree may have had Arteria aspects of actual flesh despite being a plant. It could be a stretch, but if the Crucible Knights can manifest aspects of animals and what seems to be a Crucible beast can grow myriad thorns in the DLC trailer, then perhaps animals and plants have a common ancestor, akin to the Elden Beast's own traits. Now, as to the light of the ancient Erdtree, I feel that Elden Ring's reveal trailer, title screen, and opening provide valuable information as to the natural colors of the Elden Ring itself. In the reveal trailer, we can see various shades of orange, some bordering on red, in the Elden Ring's runes as Marika shatters it and some particles flow like sand. Since the Rune of Death has already been entirely removed by that point in the story's setting, this orangish-red would appear to be a natural shade within the Elden Ring's overall golden color. The title screen's fragmented Elden Ring, barely held together by Radagon's rune, is likely a depiction of the Elden Ring's current state when the game begins, and thus the Rune of Death is still absent. Finally, the intro artwork shows a slightly orange tinge when Marika shatters the Elden Ring and Radagon repairs it. Based on these factors, any orange or red tinge in the Elden Ring might not have to come from the Rune of Death. Building on this, it's worth observing the activated Great Runes and the "Mend the Elden Ring" endings to discern each Great Rune's normal state. When the Great Runes are collected, Radahn's has been wreathed in fire to fend off the Scarlet Rot, Rykard's has seemingly been partially digested by the God-Devouring Serpent, Mohg's is rife with the Bloodflame, and Malenia's is afflicted with the Scarlet Rot. Only Morgott, Rennala, and Godrick's Great Runes seem to be gold and untouched, though Godrick's is so faint that it has traces of green in it, akin to poorly-made golden jewelry (and quite appropriate for Godrick's feeble, grandstanding character). Upon mending the Elden Ring, all of these Great Runes are seemingly cleansed and become uniformly golden, round, etc. Furthermore, the mural of the Elden Ring in Farum Azula, likely a depiction as old as the city itself, only features golden light emanating from the Elden Ring. Since the Rune of Death was likely in the Elden Ring at the time, the Farum Azula mural implies that there wasn't a distinctly red or orange coloration to the Elden Ring in the past. That can also raise the question of why the Rune of Death was red and black with spiky protrusions after Maliketh's defeat, but at the very least, the "neutral" Rune of Death apparently doesn't have a separate color from the other Great Runes or change the Elden Ring's appearance. With all of this in mind, the ancient Erdtree may have just been gold like the modern Erdtree. There are also paintings in the Fortified Manor/Roundtable Hold depicting an extremely bright, golden Erdtree towering over Leyndell, likely dating back to the age of plenty. Additionally, the Erdtree is noted as getting weaker despite having a golden glow, such as in the Warming Stone's item description, so it might not have been made Immutable through Golden Order Fundamentalism either. Also, regarding "immutable" traits, Beast Blood would probably be a handy item to analyze. Per its item description, Beast Blood "never rots or decays." I think some things can still die in the Lands Between though, as we find several bodies in random ornate chairs and no apparent signs of foul play. It's also unlikely that beings need a "fate" to die, since the Albinaurics, who aren't compatible with Grace, dissolve nonetheless. Furthermore, the Tarnished have been given their Grace back by Marika and she continually revives them unless she feels they won't become Elden Lord, at which point she ceases giving them guidance and other benefits. Sellen's case is intriguing, but she's an expert in Primeval Current sorcery, and curiously enough, she still revives if players kill her after Radahn's defeat until her Primal Glintstone is transplanted to a new body. The shattering of the Elden Ring and the state of the Lands Between has resulted in a number of zombie-like people, but a few still seem to outright die. Overall, Erdtree burial likely serves a purpose throughout the Lands Between's history, and it appears that it's meant to bring souls back to the Erdtree and possibly revive them, per the Great Rune of the Unborn. Regarding the start of the Golden Order itself, the echo of Marika at the Grand Lift of Dectus may help date this event. Melina quotes Marika offering a choice to "Become one with the Order. Or divest thyself of it." The context of the overall quote implies that Marika is speaking to the people who became the Banished Knights, and thus this is probably early into her reign. The use of "the Order" generally relates to the Golden Order, and nothing in the game implies that Marika's unified civilization went by a different name (Ex: The Erdtree Order) in the past. The phrasing of the quote recited at the Minor Erdtree Church likewise implies that the Golden Order already existed, and Marika's comrades might fear delving into the finer workings of the faith in case it has more surprises like Golden Seeds and subsequent Erdtrees, shattering their social hierarchy. Regarding Maliketh's incantation, his sword seems like it may have originally been gold, or at least much more so than it is now. With how the Blade of Calling works, it's possible that Maliketh's beam slashes were once entirely gold, but they've since been tainted by the mysterious red and black energy on the rune he guarded. It might also be worthwhile to check out Melina's two unique incantations, as they seem to be a faint gold compared to normal Erdtree incantation sigils but without the orange of the Aspect of the Crucible incantations. Also, Elden Stars is said to be the oldest of the Erdtree incantations but depicts a "modern" golden sigil. As for Wave of Gold, the Elden Beast is wielding Radagon's body as a sword to use that technique, and when compared to Litany of Proper Death, the sigil on the ground is actually inverted. It might be interesting to make a future video investigating why Golden Order Fundamentalism incantations are good against the undead even though it long predates the Night of the Black Knives. This comment is long enough as is, so I'll leave things at that. Thanks for the video, Last Protagonist!
Can the word for duty here be interpreted to represent something more akin to purpose? Searching for one's purpose, being given one by grace... Conceptually it would be really interesting
My head canon 1. There was some prior order, Marika gain/stole the elden ring and with the help of Godfrey fuck*d them up and chased the fire giants to the top of the mountains. 3. Godfrey conquest the lands between while Marika takes Liurnia by using Radagon (Maybe that's why Radan is a Godfrey fanboy) 4. Godfrey beats his last enemy who was worthy and by by Godfrey and tarnished 5. Radagon and Marika make bebes (if they were merged before, here is where it happens). 6. Godfrey is out? Gloomed eye queen time. God hunt and possible burning of the tree (no more bounty that in some way is related whit births, life or something like that.) 7. Maliketh kills the Gloomed eye queen, the rune of death is taken away from the elden ring and the golden order starts. (Maybe is here when Radagon and Marika had bebes, Melina being one of them and kind of a reincarnated Gloomed aye queen
And another theory: the Greater Will is the god most related with the elden ring, maybe outer gods (rot, death, chaos, formless mother...) were parts of the original elden ring (Farum Azula) that were taken away so Marika could make the order she wanted. Maybe the fire of the giants and the snake can not be destroyed because their respective runes are still in the ring (being Rycards and Radans). Golden order fundamentalism can't cure Malenia becouse rot is literally out of the orderder.
Maybe Marika removed the rune to unbind it so SHE could die, then it was rebound by the EB and she was reborn as radagon. Marika is radagon. And Marika is nowhere to be found. (Crucified husk)
Of course there was a real tree before the golden tree and it had red flowers and possibly red leaves. This seems so apparent. The original tree was watered with blood so reflected its diet. The golden tree is a spiritual tree and is fed with souls or life energy, that’s why it doesn’t have a tinge of red anymore. Multiple trees, multiple destructions. Revisionist histories.
Question: why are there no living babies/children (visible) in Elden Ring? The only ‘children’ characters I can think of are not really natural like Miquella and Millicent, but I mean normal babies and children. How were people born?
I think you have to put more stock in the English "translations" for Elden Ring than in other FromSoft games because this is a unique case where GRRM wrote the lore. Many of the terms which people want to translate back into Japanese are probably Japanese translations of GRRM's English terms, and the English words are actually the originals. I also imagine that the English translation team had access to GRRM's original lorebook when producing their translations of item descriptions. I would be really surprised if terms like the Law of Causality were not original to GRRM's lore.
I used to believe the same, but I don't think that's a very reliable way to think about Elden Ring anymore. I believe GRRM wrote the lore up to the Shattering, but everything after is entirely FromSoft. FromSoft also would have made plenty of changes in order for the story to fit within a game world, and I believe even the names of the main cast were ultimately decided by FromSoft (e.g. GRRM wasn't the one who named Godrick "Godrick"). At the end of the day, the version of Elden Ring we have today was created by FromSoft and therefore most accurately written in Japanese. I believe the English translation of Elden Ring is often much better than their previous titles, but I think that's mostly the result of having a better process and resources.
Well actually rereading your comment, I agree that certain things are probably directly from GRRM's English. But I'd still still that while the lore was originally written in English, it was revised and finalized in Japanese as well as the plot itself being pretty much entirely Japanese so I'd still trust the Japanese more.
1di: Godfrey is merely an enforcer of the golden order, conquered and subsumed by it. The actual source of the golden order ideology is either Radagon/Marika or the Greater Will.
So I've always seen it as destined death being removed just stopped aging and natural death. Death in combat would still kill you. We come back from death because it is our fate to come back and change it. That seems to be our curse.
Based on their corpses, I believe destined death was being wielded as a weapon during the subjugation of the giants. Not sure where that fits into the timeline.
They have too many contradictions for what grace does and is.Almost as if many people wrote it.The Bible is much more consistent and points to one author that gave direction.Elden Ring is full of holes.I can understand they left things out for imagination,but they left out too many things,in fact there is sooo much left out we do not know who we were what we did let alone chose a side.Make an Accord?Sure whats the hell is going on and who are you first?How does the steed know I am different?And what the hell has happened.Would not lift a sword till i knew that before accepting said accord.
Nice video but I believe it completely disregards environmental evidence. The facts are clear: Godfrey marched on Farum Azula and Malikeith played a key role in the removal of Destined death also in Farum Azula. As far as Godfrey is concerned based on the caelid collesum and the golden order statues in Sellia, Godfrey fought SOMETHING or someone in CAELID(he was probably on his way back home from CAELID [ SMOULDERING CHURCH sword monument]. Environmental evidence also shows that before Farum Azula was sent to the sky, Farum Azula was land locked to CAELID based on similar architecture to the BESTIAL SANCTUM and Farum great bridge when he was divested of his grace.
Farum Azula seems to have been in the air for ages, and almost no trace of its architecture, or even beastmen, remains in the Lands Between, save for the meteorite impact debris. We find no Leyndell war banners in Farum Azula either. We also don't know where the Gloam-Eyed Queen reigned from, though the serpentine tail on the Godskin Nobles has led people to speculate that it was Volcano Manor.
@@nightscout9979 this isn't true. The BESTIAL SANCTUM where you give garranq the death root and the surrounding area looks exactly like Farum Azula. It even has the same beastmen remains scattered throughout the area. You aren't being serious
It makes a lot of sense that Marika banished the tarnished as a way of sparing them from the effect of destined death's removal. Honorable death was seen as the most fitting end for a warrior, rather than withering away into obscurity like the denizens of the lands between. Lively vigor, after all, is symbolized by the color red. So a life without death is a life without vigor (energy, strength, power, vitality). It helps bring the grace of gold's unnatural resurrection of the tarnished into stark clarity as a curse and helps explain why a tarnished is needed to return balance to the lands.
yall are making her out to be way too nice. Hitler also spared certain jews and used them as men to gather other jews and then slaughter them all in an big easy barrel of his making. This is a similar tactic hunters use when allowing certain animals back into their herd in order to follow them to the source. Marika is not a good person no matter what and i am betting money this is confirmed in the DLC. No woman can sacrifice this many of her own children and not be fucked up at her absolute core
That's what I believe as well. WIth that in mind, I assume being divested of his Grace might even have been Godfrey's wish. It does put in question Marika's motives though, as with everything else in this game, she really seems to be of two minds. Why remove Death if the idea is to bring it back down the line, and on the other hand, why set up the Tarnished to come back if she truly believes in her Order ?
I think the elden beast demonstrated the power of grace to tempt Marika to be his vessel. it's an alien sent to take over the planet after all. The erd tree is a hybridization of the EB with something able to multiply and project grace. The whole religion thing is a lie to get the victims to willingly go along with it. Grace initially makes you strong and immortal, but eventually the real truth comes out - the grace given is always returned to the tree, and the cycle continues until the world is just the EB and the tree. When Marika realized this is when SHE set in motion the events that would lead to the shattering, potentially eventually freeing her and the planet from this parasitic alien. The endings are all variations she probably would be ok with EXCEPT the mending ending...
If Marika wants to be eternal she must get rid of death. Which means, no death for anyone.
It also stands to reason that maybe grace left Godfrey because he knew he couldn’t die. Maybe he felt less honorable being immortal.
This video is talking about Elden Ring lore trigonometry while two playthroughs later, I still haven't even figured out Elden Ring lore addition and subtraction.
On the topic of "was the Erdtree originally red, or much more red", it's worth noting that pure gold is technically slightly reddish yellow in color. Also notable is that ancient dragons wielded red lightning.
And maybe this is looking too deep, but it's interesting that the most common alloys of gold are with copper and silver. Pure copper is copper red, and as gold is diluted with copper its color becomes more reddish. Pure silver is white, and as gold is diluted with silver it becomes yellow and then a pale greenish yellow. When gold is diluted by both copper and silver it becomes yellowish.
Godfrey is somewhat associated with copper, particularly the weapons of himself and his warriors before becoming elden lord / aligning with the Erdtree.
The Carians are somewhat (indirectly) associated with silver, relating to the eternal cities and Nox, and Albinaurics,
Regarding Erdtree burial, it's a practice that lived on to the Shattering at least. This to me suggests that it's always been practiced, even while the Rune of Death was sealed. I imagine a society where people died when they felt ready to, relinquishing life to be born anew through the grace of the Erdtree. Similar to Numenor in Tolkien's works.
Plants definitely had more red earlier in the timeline. Faram Azula's trees show a perfect example of what this might have looked like
giant trees in the consecrated snowfield also have red leaves
Farum Azula has been crumbling since "time immemorial" and was ripped into the sky then hit by a meteorite to boot. The plants there might just be ordinarily distressed rather than having a sort of Crucible redness to them, and a handful of Farum Azula's remaining plants actually keep their green coloration.
I 100% agree, that Golden Order was founded after Godfrey's banishment. And Radagon was the one who created the Golden Order, or maybe, the key component for creating it.
But I don't think, that Erdtree was once red. We have paintings of Erdtree, and it appears to be yellow. I think Grace being red is about the "Pre Erdtree Age".
And only with Marika's Elden Ring, with Marika's Order, it becomes a goldish color. Like Marika has blond hair (which is 金髪, Golden Hair)
Maybe there were great trees before Erdtree, like Crucible Tree or something, which were red.
Tons of interesting nuance here, but it can be easy to get lost in the weeds and miss the forest for the trees. Sometimes it can help to take a step back and look at the themes. They're as open as ever, but here's my interpretation:
Fate in all its forms (including dd) is simply the course of nature.
The golden order represents the dominant societal ethos with all its beliefs, norms, exclusions, and hierarchies.
Grace represents the roles/expectations forced on individuals by society.
The tarnished are explicitly military veterans tossed aside by society after the conquest was over, only to be called back to service and denied rest once Marika eventually had another use for them.
Magic/int represents science/study. As with all souls titles it's characterized as fundamentally right about the world, but dangerous and ripe for abuse.
Faith represents religion. It's characterized as kind on the surface but a tool of those in power and ultimately somewhat misguided about the nature of the world.
Marika's original order was based in faith, but incorporated science/scholarship after being exposed to the Carian's magic.
Marika's Golden Order tried to resist the course of nature by excluding death (leads to rot and ruin in Miyazaki games ie DS3, Sekiro). Radagon holding back the stars is also emblematic of resisting the course of nature.
Death rune is removed and weaponized. Marika tries to create a perfect society, though it exterminates those outside its order. The demigods are immortal, and regular mortals are consumed by the Erdtree when they pass, subsumed by the societal order in life and in death.
Those outside the order (the nomads, those who live in death, he misbegotten, albinaurics etc) represent oppressed groups. Fire giants etc represent other nations/ideologies that are conquered and consumed or destroyed.
Ranni, who seems to represent a scientific/technocratic ethos, rebels, steals death and kills a demigod for the first time. She targets Godwyn, who seems to be the golden child, the epitome of everything the golden order represented.
Despairing at the failure of her perfect order, Marika shatters the Elden Ring. Without order, society collapses. The powerful war to impose their vision on the world, leading to massive destruction.
The player arrives. The game shows them all the wonders that were built under the previous order, and all the horrors it inflicted. Shows them the destruction wrought by a world without order, and that wrought by those seeking to impose one. Ultimately the player defeats all opponents and, imposing their will through struggle and violence, and the game asks them what sort of world they seek.
Melina: "Share them with me, your thoughts, your ambitions, the principles you would follow."
As Dark Souls sought to give the player the experience of struggling against inevitability, Elden Ring seeks to give the player the experience of questioning society and hierarchy and pursuing their own ideals.
Anyway I'm probably wrong about half of this and there's a billion things I didn't cover, but it's a start.
Seems good to me
Very underrated comment. Thank you.
It’s pretty fun to look at how well all these themes are implemented in the game, but don’t forget, the drama in the story is also *really* fun.
Repeatedly going “No… she did WHAT?” as you find out Marika forced her first husband off the continent, then sent a new dude champion to marry a threatening queen, only to have him divorce *her*, bring him back home, and marry him. That stuff is wild and hilarious. I’m really hoping we get more “Marika did WHAT?” moments in the dlc.
@@Zythryl
If you think that's crazy think about the fact Marika somehow had like 5 children with HERSELF
ah man now i have so much to think about. the groundhog day stuff had me kackling
31:57 i actually had the opposite take away. The Golden Order must have already existed, because otherwise there'd be nothing to study. She's not saying its time to create a Golden Order, she's saying its time to leave behind the early days of blind faith in it, which seems to suggest it predates that statement by quite a bit.
I definitely believe that Grace at one point took on a reddish hue, much like the wisps we see in the Mountaintop of the Giants. Not to mention the constant references to unalloyed gold, which is reddish in hue. Would make sense that the pure, unalloyed grace of old would be red when you consider all that.
Unfortunately, unalloyed gold tends to be more yellow than red in the way it's depicted. The outlier is the amber jewel found in Loretta's glaive, but even in her concept art, it's yellow
I think Radagon may literally be the manifestation of the Golden Order itself. His character represents the idea that a sufficiently powerful ideological system cannot simply be destroyed, even by it's own creator. The system takes on a life of it's own (literally, in the case of Radagon) and will strive to perpetuate its own existence like a living thing.
That's an interesting take on Radagon! Personally, I saw it more like Radagon trying to declare that he's the Golden Order itself as part of his insecurity. One of Radagon's character traits is apparently feeling incomplete, no doubt because he's literally a fragment of Marika that was splintered off and made into a separate person with his entire origin hidden. Trying to become the Golden Order itself might be Radagon's ultimate way to have a sense of belonging and feel properly integrated with society.
I kinda agree with everything you said, about the red gold and possibly red grace. We know that the Elden Ring is the source of both Grace and the Golden Order that was enforced upon the Lands Between and certainly (the whole world or planet its on). So since Marika is some sort of statue of no clear conscience by the end of our journey, who did restored our Grace as Tarnished ? I can accept that it was the Two Fingers of Round Table, but they were unsure of what to do when they learned that Radagon has gone rogue, to some extend, by sealing the way to the audience room. The incantation timeline is very relevant to explain some things, but we lack some answers about Grace and the fact that the GW has abandonned or not the Lands Between. But since the guidance of the Fingers became corrupted or distrusted by many (as Varré), it is still possible that Marika, even after the Shattering, is still controling the giving of Grace to the Tarnished. I said that to point one of many holes in the current lore, and I hope that we'll learn some more things about Marika and the Numen in the DLC.
Indeed. The DLC will fix everything ;)
I find it weird how ancient dragons were never mentioned in this video, considering it's stated that their original gold was/is red tinted and we can see it in their lightning.
Also the Erdtree being fleeting at first but made eternal later really reminds me of Tarnished Archeologist's video about the Erdtree having been burnt during the shattering and the current Erdtree being an object of faith and just an illusion seen by those who can see the guidance of Grace. The only still existing part is being the stump we can see after Morgott's / Godfrey's bossfight.
Fair enough. I do go into a lot of depth about that in my video on Gold and Silver, and this one was focused more on grace specifically, but maybe I should have brought it up. I figured it was already long enough as-is, lol
Every topic in ER is woven into the others like a Celtic knot. You gotta stop somewhere or else you're summarizing the entire game every time.
Regarding the ancient dragons and reddish-gold, I've heard that early goldsmithing struggled to remove every impurity, so ancient gold could often look slightly red. Perhaps this influenced the ancient dragons' red lightning, and it might be why only Placidusax can seemingly create gold lightning without the help of others. Even then, Placidusax's gold lightning only surrounds his arena before battle and in Phase 1.
Time for another video!
I think the erdtree's perfection is like plastic flowers😂
As in, the actual erdtree died and spread its seeds closing the age of abundance, then, was replaced by a new illusory erdtree that can never age or die. Perfect and eternal.
Though now it can't benefit the realm with its sap, it became merely an object of faith.
I used to think this because of the spectral saplings and the way you can kind of see thru branches but when the erdtree burns ash covers leyndell. HOWEVER- there is also already a quarter of the city that still is ash covered BEFORE we burn the tree.... So... The tree has been burned before, meaning maybe the top of the tree is an illusion but the trunk is still there and real.
@@havanaradioboth can be true simultaneously
@havanaradio yeah makes sense.
We can see the giant remaining physical stump if we choose the frenzied flame ending, too.
There's in-game evidence the physical erdtree extends up to the canopy. So it's not a stump before the frenzy ending. Still, I think the spell on it is designed to hide how ugly the tree has become.
@NickCombs a stump is all that's left by the time we become lord and finish the game.
But that's a good bit after the fire giant fight when it starts burning, and the capital gets covered in its mountains of ash as we fight maliketh and beat him.
In regards to placing when destined death was removed/sealed, you really have to wonder when it came under the control of the Erdtree in the first place.
The sword monument near Caelid's smoldering church reads, "Lord Godfrey, at last at the end of his campaign; His golden armies unvanquished and unbowed; Yet finds grace lost, tattered and faded;"
If there were still other societies/powers to conquer, then its possible that destined death may not have even been under the control of the control of the Erdtree until rather late in Godfrey's campaign.
I like that thought, but one big problem with this is that because it's the "Rune" of Death, and it was in the Elden Ring, it would necessitate being under Marika's control when she and Godfrey subjugate the Lands Between. Despite a few descriptions hinting at it, we're not given a direct timeframe for the birth of the Erdtree, but it should have been around by the end of the War Against the Giants at the very least.
If Godfrey continued fighting after the War, that's fine, but he and Marika would presumably have had control over the Ring by then.
I wonder how crucial the DLC might be specifically because of the crucible stuff that's so prominent in the trailer.
Here's my whacky headcanon, which will undoubtedly be proven wrong with Shadow of the Erdtree: Marika waged war against the fire giants before the Golden Order's founding, hence why the Giant Slayer Hero's grave is decorated with Two Fingers banners rather than Golden Order ones. The bulwark that is the Fire Monks was founded and in their stewardship they came to worship the flame. This set her directly on the path, as Empyrean, to become the next god vessel of the Greater Will. Godfrey became the first Elden Lord of the new order during the Age of the Crucible, a time of red tinted grace, as evidenced by his personal guard in the form of the Crucible legion as well as the births of Mohg and Morgott. However, Godwyn was also born, prodigy and the (pardon the pun) golden child of Marika, the apple of her eye. This is all happening in the transitional event when the Crucible bloomed into becoming the Erdtree, a process depicted through several statues of a priestly figure cradling a single bud out of many on a stump covered in wild sprouts representative of the chaotic sprouting of life and strongly resembling Siluria's Tree. The rise of the Erdtree saw the founding of the tradition of Erdtree burial, a new way of handling the death-life cycle of the world. Somewhere around this time, all of this invited the ire of the Gloam Eyed Queen. Much of the history surrounding her is lost, possibly forever, and we know many as of yet unnamed demigods likely died at her hand, so I'm not sure what pissed her off so bad. Possibly that she, who could have been the god of prior Elden Lord Placidusax, was then tangentally associated the Death Rite Birds, a rivaling and more ancient form of death-life cycle, or maybe through the occupation of Leyndell which was once bestial fief under the draconic empire of Farum. A war was waged in which Marika came out victorious through the removal of the rune of Death from the Elden Ring, rendering the godslaying flames diluted, after which the dragons retaliated but a peace treaty was formed through the actions of Godwyn the Golden in his battle against Fortissax. Perhaps the Erdtree was yet burned, however, leading to Leyndell being covered in ash as we find it, yet with the binding of Destined Death it was not permitted a proper death. Decrepit and shriveled, a golden illusory tree was established around its husk to keep up appearances, yet the end of the Age of Plenty was not so easy to mask: the Erdtree no longer secreted the blessed dew it once granted its believers. Furthermore, it lead to even further unforseen consequences in the form of those that live in death and the stagnant deathroot. It's from here that history is a bit clearer: night of the black knives, death of Godwyn and the Shattering War. Marika being Numen, the ancestors of the Nox, represents a completely different culture than that of her kin. Their attempt at scientifically creating their own lord was the sin that banished them from the Eternal City of Leyndell to the recesses of the underground. Perhaps this was motivation for their plot? A percieved retaliation of sorts? Godwyn's death struck a hard blow and Marika's attempts at creating a new prodigy ended in utter failure with the inbreeding of Malenia and Miquella, both cruel satires of the eternal life Marika had strived towards establishing. That's pretty much all I got so far. Maybe there could be a nugget of inspiration in there to new theories in the lore community.
The editing choice to make the starting notes of the Limgrave track repeat while talking about the Law of Regression made me smile. Fantastic video, all around! Another great resource for the community
I would have to agree that the Erdtree existed for a time before the War against the Giants, probably known as the Great Tree or the Crucible interchangeably such as is the case with the Erdtree and the Elden Ring. The Giants commit their transgressions and fall to Godfrey. Feeling full of vigor Marika begins her conquest of the rest of the lands between. Some time near the end of this conquest I would have to argue that the era of the Golden Order and The era of the Erdtree began a distinct period of overlap where the first burning of the Erdtree took place and Marika began to plan the return of the Tarnished.
Something that I've come to realize is that nothing Miriel says is to be taken for granted and that he speaks of the world in literal factual terms. Concepts are mirrored in strange ways in Elden Ring. In the way that Miquella and Ranni have mirrored each other and their escape of destiny under the Erdtree; I've come to view Radagon and Godrick as mirrored concepts of each other. I have always wondered the significance of grafting in its concepts. Order of Rot? Easy to understand that cycle of death and rebirth but grafting? what's the endgame for that?
I would argue that Radagon's marriage to Rennala was an act of cosmic scale grafting. He conjoined the fate of the Golden Order and The Stars, but note that they are not 'fused' they still retain separate identities for the sake of people like Ranni and even Miquella as children of Radagon. In terms of a time line I would have to argue that first Radagon marries Rennala and has his DemiKids that grow during the Era of Godfrey, then in short order, the Rune of Death is removed beginning the Golden Order, the Tarnished are created and banished(by stripping them of Grace their fate under the Golden Order is technically stripped too), Radahn freezes the stars in regards to the Starscourge, Radagon is called back to marry Marika. Now ask yourself what does Radagon do as Elden Lord? He grafts HIS sigil onto the Elden Ring! He then has twin DemiKids one representing a cycle of change(Outer God) and the other of an unchanging nature(Golden Order).
Finally we have the DLC where we must kill Radahn to free fate to meet Miquella who has divested himself of Gold. So what does he have left? His fate under the stars that he inherited from Radagon the same as Ranni.
You bring good insight! But back to your first para:
I too agree that the “Erdtree was born” after the Giants were felled, but the tree was still existing as a separated name. But I find it VERY interesting that Miyazaki says the Erdtree was born in the Shadow Lands *AND* it’s where Marika became a god.
Now obviously, we don’t have enough context (the game comes out in 2 months), but I align the birth of the Erdtree with the death of the Giants… but Miyazaki mutually ties both events (Marika’s god status and the Erdtree birth) within the same sentence.
Obviously we’ll learn how she became a god, but i think it’s fun to speculate: I initially thought that Marika became a God after creating the Golden Order with the removal of DD. But it would equally make, if not more, sense that to become a god she had to defeat the previous/more superior God figure of the Lands Between - and perhaps this God figure w was defeated around the time of the campaign of the Mountaintops??
I’m rambling lol, just speculating having fun
He’s back. Love to see it.
I think one effect of the condensed Rune items could be an additional link between the star-related fates and what runes represent.
When you break them, not only does the animation show off golden runes being absorbed, but little blue glintstone-looking pieces are produced, which quickly fade.
It could be that a part of the metaphysical structure of runes involves glintstone, which would mean fate is a structural component.
The Grace of Old seems like a poetic way of refering to the first vision granted to the Tarnished by Marika.
The Greater Will by its Grace(favor) gives Guidance(duty/purpose) to Tarnished.
As for the Moon and stars and fate/karma, we know that light(from them) seems to control or nudge people, and the moon may be a "star shepherd".
Lastly, there is a Golden Star in a starter shield, which represents the Pole Star, the fixed axis of heaven, that may be related somehow to the gold star that brought the Elden Beast/Ring to the lands.
Know to wait for the DLC . . .
Looking forward to watching the first 30 min that I missed.
great video! your narrative is always self-driven enough that it never seems like checking the japanese materials is over-meticulous.
my two cents on "duty or curse?" is that curso is the latin word for "run"
So in short, red-tinged life power is the true life power that contains both life and death as a cycle. The golden life power is an incomplete one, with death(red) removed and only life(gold) left whtinin. Thus the ones who related to the golden power are unable to die, e.g. The Tarnished.
I'm not 100% sure if gold is life implicitly since things like Miquella's Unalloyed Gold Lillies are "wilted," but with dragon hearts continuing to beat vivaciously, it very well could be the case. It's annoying that Miyazaki says the immortality of the Tarnished is _not_ due to Destined Death being removed, lol. Maybe the DLC will elucidate more
@@LastProtagonist I'd argue a better way to phrase it is that Gold represents Order, in this context meaning structure, complexity, persistence and, when misused, stagnation. All very important aspects of life, and a fairly accurate way to define an "immortal soul" in broader RL beliefs. Destined Death seems a bit narrow but ultimately represents Change, or at least the change inherent in the rebirth cycles of Eastern mythologies. An automated assembly line is incredibly complex, and like an ever-beating dragon heart it is not static in time, but we would never consider the former to be a living being. Why? It doesn't _change_ it just repeats the same process over and over, human operators enact the changes (well, and the slow creep of entropy which we don't like to think about). Scarlet Rot is _UTTERLY HORRIFYING_ because it is in itself a force of change, but caught in eternal stagnation under the Golden Order. It is not "just" cancer, it is like a cancer which constantly grows and dies off in equal measure, but also unable to properly kill anything it consumes.
By contrast the Tarnished _CAN change!_ They alone still hold the power to break the cycle, they can grow and develop in different ways, support the Golden Order or defy it and cast it aside entirely. But they are not free, chained by the Grace of Gold and guided towards some kind of purpose or duty, and only those Tarnished who still see the Grace are immortal. Presumably at least part of this function was or still is controlled by Marika so there will be some overlap in timing and intent, but to me the distinction is that the removal of Destined Death "blindly" alters the flow of the greater system as a whole (or rather halts it tbh) whereas Grace creates a very specific flow with directed intent. I believe for Grace to exist it still requires a ruler who places "Order" above "Death" in an unnatural fashion but with appropriate sacrifices elsewhere it could even be possible in a zero-sum cosmos where Destined Death is not yet confined.
It seems like the Golden Order’s creation (removal of DD) was necessitated only AFTER bloodshed (era represented by Godfrey). Godfrey’s conquest was primarily meant to enforce the order of the Erdtree on the lands by Killing all and every enemy. Once the threats were felled, Death is then removed (order represented by Radagon) - hence, begins the culture of the immortal sacrifice in Erdtree Burial to grant life to this NEW era of the Erdtree (represented by the Golden Order and Radagon, as opposed to Godfrey).
Fantastic video btw! I liked how definitive you were in drawing direct evidence as an essay around grace, Erdtree and the Elden Ring
Regarding Scarlet Rot, I'm fairly certain it was a problem in the past, as the scorpion form of the Outer God had to be defeated and sealed by the Blind Swordsman in Blue.
I agree, but there was ostensibly a period of relative stability (Godfrey's reign and maybe earlier) before it seemed to become truly problematic
@LastProtagonist Marika's Empire seemed very uninterested, I suspect, in history outside of itself. The Lake of Rot might not be well known to the Lands Between at large.
That would be an interesting topic: what does the average citizen of the Lands Between know or "know" about the world? What would a reasonably learned person know? What information would be completely unknown to anyone except the players who can read obscure item descriptions?
Man that sure was a lot of talk of people’s duties in the beginning. To quote Nacho Libre, “Maybe I am not meant for these duties. Cooking duty. Dead guy duty. Maybe it's time for me to get a better duty!”
It is a missed opportunity in changing Destined Death from purple to red. Purple is the complimentary color to yellow (or gold) and when mixed together with yellow purple creates brown, or the color of the tree upon which the Erdtree has been grafted. That would explain why removing the Purple of Destined Death would make it yellow/gold. Alas, the Art student in me is disappointed.
I can't get enough of "Carol from HR" Sir Gideon
This more or less aligns with the timeline I've had in my head, but is more comprehensively laid out (with the elements of "fate" and the stars discussed here being a new facet for me).
A question I've long had that you would be the one to answer: what does the Arcane stat mean in the original Japanese? It governs a number of bizarrely unrelated things (Regalia of Eochaid?), so I suspect knowing the original name might she'd some light.
神秘 - shinpi - "arcane," occult, mystic, divine secret, etc. I have a video talking about the lore of Bloodborne where I go into the meaning behind this word in great detail. It's called something like The Divine Secret of the Eldritch Truth, but I don't think it does a whole lot to explain its implementation into Elden Ring.
Does it govern anything that would not be accurately described as "heretical" from the perspective of the Golden Order? Ideally not just "outside" it but directly opposed to it or its ideals.
@@Photoloss Dragon Communion, whose seal uses Arcane, does not seem inherently heretical. The original Japanese description of Magma Wyrms implies more of a "flew too close to the sun" than a sin against Marika. And neither Godskin incantations nor Fire Giant incantations use Arcane.
Interesting that you imagine Grace having a reddish hue, since you can see traces of what appears to be red guidance of Grace in the forbidden lands. Is that what makes them forbidden? Because they hide the true nature of the Erdtree and Grace?
Good question.
Looking at the scene of Godwyn's death once more made me wonder if the assassination happened in the Erdtree? The fog on the image made me think of the scene where the Tarnished arrive to the Lands Between and where you fight the final boss. Plus the Erdtree is in Leyndell so it's certainly a possibility. Thanks for the video!
Godwyn's body seems to be on stone tiles in the story trailer, so it probably occurred in Leyndell.
Notes:
Yes. As Far I could gather, Godfrey helped Establish the Reign of Marika through War. While the Faith in the Erdtree was there; And Marika's Godhood (or the fact she was an Empyrian) was also established; Death was necessary for her to get rid of their enemies. She Ordered an assalt on the Giants, Radagon Married Renala to stop the Liurnian Wars, The Gloam-eyed Queen is defeated along side their godskins apostles, Godfrey killed the King of the Storm and THEN he is removed from grace, Maliketh is removed from Marika's side and protects the Rune of Death that is also removed from the Elden Ring.
It gives the impression that the Establishment of Leyendel and the culture of Golden Order and stuff only happens with Radagon as Elden Lord.
Godfrey was there just to wage war.
oh man it took me 3 paragraphs to explain this but you did it so much better lmao. good stuff
@@eldenringpvpenthusiast1710 the amount of hours trying to understand this shit is probably unhealthy. The lest I could do is explain this in fewer words :v
I thought that what you said about the Golden Order starting with Radagon was commonly accepted at this point. I guess I don’t know what people are thinking, but I totally agree with you on that. Love the little nuances the Japanese brings to things too.
Great vid, as always 🔥
(I agree with you that the Rune of Death was not removed with the formation of the Erdtree and Marika's ascension. Most likely, it was removed when the Age of Plenty came to a close, perhaps just after the Erdtree was set ablaze. This would presumably but not necessarily be after the 1st and 2nd Liurnia Wars, which I believe happened significantly after the Erdtree had been established [as I would guess the narrative suggesting that Godfrey lost his grace the moment there were no sufficient enemies to challenge him remaining is a mythic exaggeration that fails to reflect the brief age of prosperity that would follow thereafter]. Radagon's rise to prominence happened while Godfrey was still there, after all, according to the Turtle Pope, and he joins Marika as consort almost immediately after Godfrey's banishment
Now, we also know that Godfrey would have stayed in the Lands Between until the Age of Plenty was basically over, given his omen children with Marika, given the Omen Blood Curse seem to be reflective of the Erdtree's decline in sap production and instability in the whole, "Bury, Soul Recycle, Rebirth" process. As such, we might even suggest that the order of events is as follows: Godfrey and His Warriors Are Tarnished -> The Erdtree Burns [probably at the hands of The Gloam-Eyed Queen and/or Messmer?] -> Radagon Is Taken as Consort [possibly because Marika was left vulnerable without an Elden Lord, and her last line of defense, Maliketh, had to be deployed in order to stop the state of emergency].
I would also argue that it is possible that Destined Death only actually came into being during the Gloam-Eyed Queen's Godskin Apostasy, and that it is at least theoretically possible that it was only ever briefly in the Elden Ring, starting just before Maliketh slew the Gloam-Eyed Queen. If that is actually the case, it is possible that Marika actually briefly died during this conflict, and Radagon was brought to become Marika's Elden Lord specifically so he could remove the Rune of Death and add his scaffolding as a Mending Rune in order to bring Marika back to life and functionality. This could be how the tree became one of golden radiance, and how the Golden Order began. It could also perhaps explain why the two of them are sharing a body: he might have chosen to sacrifice his bodily autonomy as an ultimate act of faith in order to preserve his goddess and the religion to which he had dedicated himself. Of course, this paragraph above is rife with conjecture, regardless of the validity of the ones before it.
Also: I see no strong evidence that Destined Death actually *was* present in the Elden Ring before the Erdtree/before Marika rose to power. It kills both soul and body, and previous cultures very clearly believed [and had evidence for] souls lingering at the body until Ghostflame separated them and they were able to be either guided to a special "lampwood" that let them into the world of spirit or they became vengeful spirits. Erdtree Burial also recognizes this lingering soul phenomenon, and exists because the soul can be resorbed into the tree's roots and then be transferred to a new body thereafter, possibly via a body being literally grown on the branches and then the soul being transmitted to it via a holy sacrament caried out by Marika and/or the Perfumers that served her-- let's call it "Erdtree Baptism" [a process which is seemingly depicted via the Blessing of the Erdtree talisman]. Given Melina's comments on Boc's situation with her mother, mind, it is quite possible that the process does not in fact involve pregnancy. None of this would be possible if Destined Death actually was part of the Elden Ring for a long period of time, unless it functions differently while in said array of many runes than it does when wielded outside of it, which strikes me as unlikely.
Oh, erm, also: the Catacombs were probably there before Marika rose to power in any respect, and were likely specifically created with the arrival of the Numen, who then spread across the continent, with some of them becoming the Astrologers in the Mountaintops of the Giants. They seem to have likely originally had a burial practice which involved burying the dead, or to have carried this practice forward from natives who were already on the continent (perhaps the Beastmen, who clearly did so as evidenced by Farum Azula), but one of the major reasons why the Catacombs came into being was the internment of ashes. During this time, the Deathbirds and Deathrite Birds held great sway over the land, and their Ghostflame Cremation was a very big *thing.* Ghostflame seems to have some strong association with underground spaces, which is probably why these housed ashes were held underground. At some point, they also started including and carving out spaces for coffins in those great mausoleums, as well.
I don't think Remembrance of the Regal Ancestor is especially relevant, given it comes from a totally different culture to any of those discussed so far, and probably one descendant from a very ancient source, given where the worshipers of said beings (Ancestral Followers) live, and what their practices are. They seem to possibly even predate the arrival of the Deathbird cult, and may even be a remnant of pre-Numen human civilization.
No, I do not think that the original redness of Gold relates to Destined Death at all. It certainly relates to Ancient Dragons, and their Red Lightning, but they are also immortal and eternal; thus untouched by death unless slain. Keep in mind that Destined Death is *black* and Red. It is a combination, aesthetically, of the Flame of Ruin and Ghostflame [for, note, even the sealed version which the Godskin Apostles wield is black and white like Ghostflame; just in inverted proportions]. That said, it is also worth noting that this same red seems to align with the lights in the night sky of the Mountaintops of the Giants, and with the red pulses the Tibia Mariners make when they blow their horn-paddles, so it is possible that that this means Destined Death *was* drawing on already established powers related to death. It's just that there's no strong connection between that and Grace or Gold, as far as I can tell. The Gold that the Elden Ring/Beast, Ancient Dragons, and Greater Will in general are connected to seems to have a nature which stands in contrast to death and the Rune related to it. That they both have a reddish coloration does seem *odd,* mind you, but all the red-gold stuff seems to be related to the Crucible Era, or to the era/s before it, which would put it as too early for the shift to reflect the removal of the Rune of Death, unless this was possibly a specific change made by Radagon to create a sort of intentional visual deviation from any death related themes at all. In which case, I have to laugh, because that means he might have been partially driven by his hatred of his hair color and the connection red had to the Fire Giants.
I do agree that the whole "fate of the moon" business and Radagon's study at Raya Lucaria is suspicious, by the way [especially given his ideological bent and the fact he has a theme of wanting to bind everything together and see them flow into one]. If he *was* the one responsible for Unalloyed Gold becoming the pure yellow color we know today, then I could certainly see the argument that he might have imposed the Destiny aspect to it, though one would have to explain exactly what it was before. Why would Godfrey have had his Grace removed, in that case? Certainly, being granted this new version of the Guidance of Grace does allow for one to revive indefinitely. Those Tarnished without it seem to be very much mortal once more, but removing it and banishing him just puts him outside of the realm and presumably able to be retrieved at some pre-planned point of convenience thereafter.
Yes, the [Minor] Erdtree Guardians almost definitely predate the Shattering. Specifically, they almost certainly come from immediately after the first burning of the Erdtree, which would have happened significantly before the Shattering. Probably at about the same time the Age of Plenty ended fully and the Age of the Golden Order began. Their ancient pact probably came about after the Erdtree scattered seeds across the land [which was thought to be impossible] upon its conflagration and thus sparked new life, despite the main trunk's death. Their existence was probably thought a necessary precaution in the wake of the Cardinal Sin. I do not know what you are talking about with regard to the Minor Erdtrees being destroyed.
Also, Praetor Rykard is probably able to burn his Minor Erdtree due to the fact that he uncovered ancient magics left behind by Messmer, who likely is the one who built the ruins at Volcano Manor before they were ruined and his name was blotted from history in response to the Treachery of the Serpent.
Maliketh's Black Blade probably has that symbol because it was the last incantation to represent that era, even if its creation may have post-dated it. It may or may not have been the case that the Ancient Erdtree remained briefly standing after Maliketh gained the ability to imbue Destined Death into his blade.
And yes: the Black-Flame Monks' existence is one of the strongest reasons to argue for the Gloam-Eyed Queen's emergence and/or violent activity to be something that happened relatively late in the game. There is very, very little reason for them to have been seduced by her power if she was long since dead by the time that the war against the Fire Giants happened. As such [and given all the ways the Godskin Apostles and Nobles are characterized as seemingly a violent, insurgent force], the more reasonable interpretation has seemed to me for quite some while to be that she rebelled near the end of the Age of Plenty, and may even have been the cause for its seemingly sudden downturn.)
Worth noting that the "genesis of the Erdtree" probably refers to the Crucible, which may well have been largely red. There are strong reasons to believe that the Crucible was not the same thing as the Ancient Erdtree, which is its form *after* it was the only remnant of the Crucible's abundant sprouting, and yet was still alive.
Scarlet Rot was not only a problem after Malenia was born. It's simply that it was a very old problem, which had likely been sealed away for ages (though admittedly it is unclear exactly when in the timeline this was, other than that it had already been sealed by the time she was born), and it came back like a cancer which had been in remission but became malignant once more. It seems likely that the fact Raya Lucaria is almost directly above the Lake of Rot and they are actively mining for Glintstone may well have disturbed the seal which kept the Outer God of Scarlet Rot from effecting the world, even if the plan they went with was to do so indirectly.
Oh, and the (Minor) Erdtree Guardians may have spilled their own blood to enter the pact with the Erdtree's offspring, helping them to grow in the same way Miquella did with his Haligtree. That would explain why their death led to eternal life.
Ah, you meant the *those* Minor Erdtrees being destroyed. The ones up north. Well, it would have to have been relatively recently, but I don't know. The one at Mt. Gelmir was probably destroyed by Rykard due to learning Messmer's magics, but I am uncertain how the other two might have been destroyed. Maybe it was Miquella, testing methods to kill fully eliminate the Erdtree proper, since he presumably wants his Haligtree to grow unimpeded?
Finally: yes, I believe your overall argument is coherent enough, though I think you're overestimating how much a departure this is from established thinking. I just think you're likely wrong about Destined Death being there from the beginning. I *do* agree that there is a parallel to Gwyn's selfish impulse and Marika-Radagon's selfish desire to prolong the abundant life offered by the Erdtree; however, I think there was probably more of a crisis than that, and this probably was all the culmination of a clashing of wills between Marika, the Gloam-Eyed Queen, Messmer, and Radagon, who each probably wanted slightly different things and did their best to enact their will upon the Erdtree and the Lands Between following Godfrey's departure and the power vacuum to follow.
The impression i got from the game is that there was a different less refined "order" in the past associated with the crucible. Likely with an OG tree. Then Marika and Godfrey came along and created their own order (golden order) and conquered the lands in between. This was potencially done by grafting a new tree onto the OG tree which made it and their order florish.
I believe that the 2 fingers, the erdbeast and such are the servants of a outer god like frenzy flame but order based. This entity managed to influenced Marika and to protect her "order" from outside forces she wanted to adjust her order. To do this she kicked Godfrey and the Tarnished out and with Radagon becoming Elden Lord the outer god was used to create golden order fundamentalism putting stuff into stasis (Death was removed as a concept creating DD in the first place) to ensure further outer god mettling from working but still it was not perfect and other entities like frenzied flame and rot were able to take a little bit of a hold.
Marika didnt like how this went and shattered the elden ring and returned grace to the tarnished so they may stuggle and one day end the not so perfect order.
Grace is just a signifier of if someone is part of the currently active "order" off the land.
One really needs to differenciate between order, golden order and golden order fundamentalism. They are separate things. Golden order and golden order fundamentalism are basicly two different religions grown from the same base similar to the schism between catolic cristians and orthodox ones.
Its totally GRRM stuff. Same with Radagon and Marika beeing the same person. There is an old interview of GRRM where he talks about how it always kinda stuck to him like the trinity are 3 entities that are one entitiy but not the same. In fire and ice he echoed this with the faith of the 7, where god has 7 aspects. In Elden ring its god having 2 aspects. Marika and Radagon. Golden order and golden order fundamentalism.
This is a very good "food for thought" video, very refreshing to hear interesting takes that don't go deep into conjecture to fit the author's headcanon. A lot of your points didn't sound particularly "status quo breaking" to me, but it might just be that I already saw things mostly the same way as you do.
What really gives me pause is why Marika seemingly set everything up for Death to come back eventually, from the Tarnished to Hewg, to shattering the Ring and maybe being involved in the Night of the Black Knives, if she really wanted to make her Order work. I really want to see Marika as more than what Gwyn was, a force that kept the world from moving forward, but it's this apparent "change of mind" that is really hard to nail down.
I will also like and subscribe since I focused on the text as opposed to the visuals.
I wonder if the paintings of the erdtree scattered around could help dating the extraction of the rune of death. In some paintings the erdtree is red and in others yellow
I think the Erdtree is golden in every painting, but the Volcano Manor ones depict it on fire.
At least the burning of the erdtree could be canon. This + the ash everywhere.
Grand essay!! You made the info and your reasoning clear and, to me, it answers more questions that it asks and therefore makes it more likely. Great job! *honk, honk*
I assume the Grace of Old refers to the Grace given and taken away from Godfrey and the original Tarnished. And I absolutely think they were sent on their Long March before Destined Death was removed, because Marika sent them away with the intent of them dying at the end. Otherwise it suggests she knows the Elden Ring's influence doesn't reach other Lands or that she has the ability to control Death somehow and include some while the rest are excluded.
Wasn't technically all Fate altered once Radahn halted/altered the movement of the stars? So this would have taken place quite sometime after the union of Radagon and Rennala.
Could Erdtree Burial be a part of the current cycle of "immortality"? We can kill enemies and bosses with Destined Death locked away, so in some way their state of living changes. I suspect that a Destined Death means you die with no chance of being raised, like TWLID nor reborn somehow. Perhaps Marika's intention is that instead of continuing as chopped up remains or ash, everyone can return to life through the Erdtree Burial hence technically immortal? Part of me wonders if enemies respawning could sorta be meta-lore explained by the lack of death, but that would have to be extended to bosses as well.
(Elder Scrolls Online has a really fun meta-lore quest about respawns within a dungeon tied to a broken timeline/time loop.)
I hadn't pondered upon it before watching the video but the boundless growth and endless youth (life) you mentioned, if perfectly represented within the Prince of Death who is essentially a tumour of aimless growth and life.
I'm not 100% sure who said this, but I think it was Quelaag, that called the light mentioned about Helphen's Steeple - the Red Grace, referring to the item description along with the red sliver of a gem upon the blade. I think that meshes well with an Age of Godfrey without Death and people seeking honourable death in battle.
"The lamplight is similar to grace in appearance, only it is said that it can only be seen by those who met their death in battle."
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When I first played through the game I assumed that Destined Death was removed from the Elden Ring after the Shattering and that Marika shattered it to be able to removed the Rune of Death. I know now that based on the Night of Black Knives, this isn't possible but know I really struggle to reconcile with myself a reason as to why Marika shattered the Elden Ring.
This also ties together with the fact that I, during this first playthrough, thought that Marika supported Ranni in her quest to finally be able to be killed and released from her immortal imprisonment, but is flawed by the same causality as the above idea. On an emotional level, I still feel like this makes sense or I want it be to possible.
One weird thing about Radahn and the fate in the night skies is we still technically don't even know when that happened. Radagon would have presumably had to have had the Carian children before returning to Leyndell, and it's possible it still could have happened during Godfrey's watch, all things considered. Idk if I'd buy into it personally, but it *is* a possibility.
I'm sure there's more to it, but for now, I kinda view Destined Death as the "natural" end of body and spirit. The Golden Order stops death of the spirit, so the souls of the dead are forced into a kind of limbo once their bodies perish. Funnily enough, in an earlier draft of the video, I had it opening to a shot of the Helphen/candletree right before the Forbidden Lands' giant skull, but I changed it so as not to betray people's expectations. Glad you were reminded of it nonetheless though
That was interesting hearing the secular explanation for karma!
*Goldmask to Radagon:* You see this golden poop? THAT'S _your_ Golden order!
I personally believe that even after the Destined Death was sealed, people continued to live and die naturally, and only the Demigods were immortal, hence the need for graveyards and catacombs. Removing the DD simply made their spirits immortal, allowing them to return to the Erdtree after their „deaths”. „A proper death means returning to the Erdtree”. I believe that only after the Shattering people become unable to die, like wandering nobles.
The catacombs date way back before erdtree burial since they contain a lot of cremation urns and sarcophagi.
I generally agree, but I think that the Rune of Death destroying souls seems unnecessary and counterproductive with the Great Rune of the Unborn. The fact that it destroys souls doesn't appear to contribute anything in the Erdtree's system.
@@nightscout9979 I don't think we have any indication that the rune of death destroys souls. It just enables people to die of old age as I understand it.
@@NickCombs Godwyn's soul was killed and it appears to be entirely absent, indicating that it was annihilated. While Castle Sol seemingly tried to bring back annihilated souls, that resulted in disaster. Some people speculate that the plan didn't work due to Radahn freezing the stars, but the ghosts don't remark on something interfering or a factor they didn't anticipate. If Castle Sol wasn't simply too weak to cause an eclipse, it could be that there were no souls to interact with, implying they were thus destroyed.
While Fia also tries to revive Godwyn's soul, she seems to think that Godwyn will somehow be "reborn" as her Mending Rune, and other things imply she might be rather deranged. Fia comes from a bizarre cult that seems to believe in human sacrifice, and she created a sorcery to actively spread Death Blight, something even the undead hate.
Fia also conspired to murder the far less extreme D twin when she already had one cursemark and the Roundtable Hold had a non-violence rule even the Dung Eater upheld. We can observe from places like Summonwater that the undead really do attack people indiscriminately too, so the Golden Order Fundamentalists aren't innately villainous for trying to stop the undead. Furthermore, Fia's plan is actively opposed by Fortissax, who both knows Godwyn and is suffering from the Death Blight himself, so considering all of these things, Fia might be akin to the crazy characters who foolishly support the zombies in zombie apocalypse stories. As such, Fia's idea that she can revive Godwyn's soul might have no actual basis.
@@nightscout9979 It's an interesting hypothesis, but I think it creates more questions than it resolves.
If we were to assume for a moment that Godwyn's soul naturally passes on to the spirit realm (which would make sense as the destiny of death), then we could take Fia at her word without needing to disregard a lot of her story as delusion. In comparison to that, it seems much better to accept that Castle Sol failed for another reason.
When we look at the in-game eclipse symbolism, it communicates an ability to drain color from the sun. We can connect this with the other elements of the sun in ER, particularly the Sun Realm which is only depicted on the shields of those who live in death. Logically, this leads to a hypothesis that Miquella is trying to remove the energy from the Sun Realm to halt deathroot. Notably, if only Godwyn's body remains in the lands between, then his soul has no part in being responsible for deathroot.
To explain why Miquella failed at Castle Sol, we could use the halting of the stars and fate as you said. We could also consider it a symbol of how unstoppable deathroot is, as a clear metaphor for disease. That's certainly dark enough for a Soulsborne game.
I'm not sure I agree with all of this, but it's a very coherent theory. I want to think some more about what this means about stuff like *when the gloam eyed queen existed* and *who she was* . Were Godfrey & the Tarnished banished before or after the conflict with the gloam eyed queen ended? I suspect that Melina was the Gloam Eyed Queen (or rather that Melina is a bud of the Gloam Eyed Queen as Millicent is to Melania). So many questions. Were she and Messmer twins? Were they children of Godfrey? GEQ was the demigod who held the rune of death? An empyrean. Did she rebel after her father was banished? *Is* Godfrey the father of Melina and/or Messmer? Are they children from before Godfrey... Numen children?
I think this also suggests that Radagon was made from Marika for the purpose of marrying Renala and learning what he could from her. Which, fits. The quote from Marika at 30:35 suggests to me that she's actually speaking to Godfrey + maybe her larger counsel. Telling them all "we can't just fight and destroy Raya Lucaria, we need to learn as much as we can from it. I need to. Why can't you see this?" Maybe this was the beginning of the end for the trust there, which would lead to the banishment.
I think you must be completely right that the Golden Order is a post-Godfrey thing. Golden Order Fundamentalism I suspect is more likely a specific strain of the Golden Order, or a specific idea within it. Miquella and Radagon gift each other spells / ideas of Golden Order Fundamentalism. Two beings made from Marika in different ways, "pure" aka "fundamental", or at least they wanted to think. The question is what is the Golden Lineage and why is it associated with Godfrey, but still decorate itself in non-red gold? Was Godwyn the beloved child specifically because he didn't rebel?
How does Thops Barrier figures in all this? His discovery that incantations and sorceries stem from the same principle - and thus being able to devise a barrier to both - might have been a revelation that caused his murder in Raya Lucaria?
Edit - btw great video as always!
Last Protagonist of Leyndell!!
top 3 lore videos i ever watched. thanks
Fundementists are never seperate from their faith. Normally they are people who follow a more considered or scholarly version of the faith. These groups are usually more literalist because deep study of a religious text usually leads to less devience form its tenents. Because many religions have strick laws and old fashioned ideas we think of them seperate in the modern age, but they nearly never do. Most fundamentals think they follow the same faith more correctly, more purely.
I've always took it that Destined Death was removed just before Godfrey had his grace taken. The other founding tenant of the Golden Order is that Marika is the only god. Between Godfrey, the Godskins, and even Marika herself they made that true. Destined Death would need to be in play to remove the rival gods. I think Godfrey was still around when Destined Death was removed but I think its removal is part of the reason he was stripped of grace. For someone like Godfrey battle has no meaning without death. By taking their grace Marika made them mortal and sent them away to a place where their battles would have "meaning" again.(I tend to believe that the immortality of the Golden Order only exists in the Lands Between and only to those with Grace. Liurnia's immortals are attributed to Glintstone crowns for the academia and stalled stars for Carians.)
"Old grace of reddish hue, related to death." This sounds like the Helphen to me.
For me it happened the following:
-The primordial life existed as the complete chaos, random and unpredictable.
-Marika used the power of the elden beast to harvest this chaotic power and shape it into a tree. (The primordial tree)
-War of the giants, a lot of dead bodies used to feed the eardtree and make it grown
-Age of Plenty, first elden lord, Godwyn the golden
-Cicle of life of the tree was ending, age of plenty is gone;
-A lot of ideas on how to grow ir back, mesmer want to burn it, but no one agreed
-The erdtree was burned and messmer got banned
-Marika and his other half comes up with the plan to create the golden order, and removes the grace of golde
-The golden illusion of the tree is created with golden order fundamentalism
-Death is removed, since there's no actual tree anymore and no way to do erdtree burier
-As a consequence, Marika mew borns grow with curses that reflects the state of the land such as stagnation, no aging etc
Enia: Lo, behold the two fingers command you to lend 20 buck's for that sweet Godwyn NFT. Ahem, I mean, because the Elden Ring deems it so. And a berry wrap from 711. Not the one near Lyndell, for that one never has them.
Really great video, I have been thinking about some of these ideas and I agree there is a real chance the GO started with Rahdagon.
But my first question is, if the tarnished were created before the Golden Order, why do they need to fight and die outside of the Lands Between, to grow strong in the face of death. Maybe the plan was to create the GO as they left, they would not be able to die otherwise?
If Marika thought removing death was a good idea at the time, why does she need to plant the seeds for her tarnished army to return to unseal Destine Death in the future.
Well, if the Erdtree needed the dead to grow, then sending the Tarnished to unknown lands where they would live and die, only to be called back to the Erdtree could have been one way of trying to sustain it, but who knows
We've had one, yes. But what about second grace?
Don't think he knows about second grace, Pip.
Remember the Dung Eater also took part in a similar practice that Radagon did so it's hard to consider his actions as unique. The Dung Eater also cleansed himself with celestial doo-doo
Awesome video. I will never understand the difference between destin death and reg death?
Golden order was made when maliketh defeated gloam eyed queen, and marika became the new god of the Elden ring. She sealed her nemesis’ power, the rune of death with maliketh.
Excellent video!
I wonder, is it possible that both the death and reborth runes were removed at the same time? They are at least tangentially linked (the cycle of death and rebirth shows up a few times in lore about how the world was before the Erd tree) and if so, that would support it happening after Godfrey and the Tarnished are banished and before Radagon becomes Elden Lord. Iirc the rebirth great rune is what powers the amber egg, right? Rebirth without death is pointless, and death without rebirth is a slow extinction, so removing one without the other seems... ill advised, we'll say. 😅
i thought it was pretty common thought that the golden order was created when destined death was removed from the Elden ring and raddagon was the Elden lord at the time so that's why he is the figure head not Godfrey (28:01 for time stamp) it could be that i just came up with that but that's what i came to from the English lore I'm familiar with
"The Rune of Death goes by two names; the other is Destined Death. The forbidden shadow, plucked from the Golden Order upon its creation..." - Enia on the subject of burning the thorns (and by extension the Erdtree)
Thing is we don't know who, what or IF Radagon was before the creation of the Golden Order. He could have been a mere Champion with some other shady business going on (maybe related to Messmer or the Fire Giants) who only merged with Marika after leaving Rennala and becoming Elden Lord. Or he could have been a disguise/alter ego of Marika from the start, probably created specifically to subvert Liurnia or gain access to their scholarly knowledge but possibly also repurposed from a curse placed upon Marika by the Fire Giants (red hair). Either option does beg the question what exactly Godfrey was doing to not be involved in a war with a neighbouring country, or if he was already exiled how and why Marika reigned for so long (the entirety of Radagon's marriage to Rennala!) without any Elden Lord at her side.
@@Photoloss but the golden order didn't exist until radagon stepped onto the scene, at least as far as I'm aware so wouldn't that imply that the rune of death was in the Elden ring when Godfrey was banished. that the impression i always had.
@@katwatson5781 I agree it is very likely that Destined Death was part of the Elden Ring throughout most of Godfrey's reign and possibly at his time of banishment. The question is how long and how bumpy the transition period was.
In terms of plain facts the entire Liurnian War and Radagon's marriage to Rennala lie between Radagon's first appearance and his ascension to the throne of Elden Lord. The nature of his being at the time is unknown but his introduction as the leader of the forces invading Liurnia suggests that either Godfrey was still away on a different campaign (unlikely, as he definitely fought in Stormveil and Liurnia is on the way there), or else Godfrey was already exiled by this point in time.
If we directly equate Radagon with the Golden Order that means Destined Death would have been removed before the Liurnian War, meaning either it was already removed when Godfrey was banished or Marika reigned without an Elden Lord at her side nor the "completed" Golden Order in its modern institutionalised form throughout the entirety of Rennala's marriage. Not impossible but if that was an option it begs the question why she even bothered to unite with Radagon at all. Especially as she would later change her mind, mock him for having "yet to become a god/her" and ultimately resolve to shatter the Elden Ring in direct opposition to Radagon.
I thought it was always obvious that the grace we see of today is not grace of previous eras.
As this is the end of the age of the Golden Order.
Previous ages would guide through grace a different direction/duty/fate.
Since for years Marika has ruled as a god for so long as to have nigh completely erased the previous god and lord from remembrance.
i dont like that I noticed this, but what's burning in the fireplaces in the roundtable hold and the ancestral follower tablets that you can light, is not wood... It has something to do with why the fallen hawks are burning themselves, after previously being the inverted hawks. They went down to the eternal cities looking for something. But the only ones that survived converted to fallen hawks and stopped burning wood in the ancestral's woods, because the ancestral followers don't like people messing with their woods or burning the wood from the trees. I think the ancestor followers become the trees there when they pass on, and the people coming down are burning them. The ancestors only burn oils and what's in their stone tablets waiting for you to light. Whats strange is the ancestor's oil wells are very similar to the kiln of the giants, and higher up on the tablet you can light, there is a sprig growing that you can see on stone murals in Farum Azula, with strange beasts with human faces growing with them.
My hypothesis, is that even though the ancestral's seem different from the culture of dragons and giants when you look at them, they actually not only have a similar culture, they seem connected from the bottom of nokron up through the lands between and giants kiln, and up even further to Farum Azula. Connected as some ascension like pilgrimage.
But someone or something, not only blew up their trees and buried their culture, it may have been mimicing others to sow confusion, and create proxy wars before going to war and finishing the exhausted parties that should have been on each others side. Their is mention of a fell god, a frenzy god, and a god that fled and still waited for.
I think its the same power that gets borrowed from the dragons, by the giants, who still lost the war with Marika. It seems she was not able to kill the fell god, so she imprisoned it. This prolonged and isolated imprisonment might have made the fell god the frenzy god, that hyetta mentions "what was borrowed must be returned". But the descriptions of the frenzy incantations mention attempts to control it, so it was imprisoned and being experimented on.
Only one of these frenzy incantations mention having a meager success at some point in controlling the frenzied flame. The game likes to trick you with, "the nox attempted to create a lord" or "a meager victory". its like a person hired a merc(us) and is just telling us what is commonly told around these items or themes, the best way I can put it is the narrator of item descriptions is like Handler Walter to 621. My point is though the word is someone attempted to create a lord, but the nox wont tell anyone if they did, it would destroy the point of it being able to take the form of others. I like the Radagon is a silver tear theories, but I think its opposite. I think Radagon or Godwyn were the remeberance in a way to what ever fell god Marika used the image of, but got her vessel to become a god, with her apart of it.
I'm pretty sure the ring got cracked like a nut when Marika got smart from tricking Rennala, removed the death nut and fed it to maliketh, and had Radagon repair the ring without death.
I think most events up to the shattering was the Erdtree Faithful, even up to Miquella's childhood. His age is the time of being born to the ring being shattered, because Marika learned abouth the law of causality/regression by gaining intelligence. She knew what would happen by removing death, basically burning her old world for her eternity, which caused the shattering. It might make Marika actually eternal in the eys of Radagon, who had Marika as a god in his mind, even as he became elden lord and repaired the ring, their new order always had Marika as a god, but more like an outer god now.
This timeline doesn't work because the Rune of Death already needs to be out of the Ring for Ranni to be able to steal a shard of it to kill Godwyn (and herself.) If the GO was founded upon the removal of Destined Death, it had to happen before the Shattering and the Night of Black Knives
@@LastProtagonist nothing you say is incorrect, but death was stolen at a point, and also resealed so it would "never" escape again. The timelines that i'm still working on are based on the incantation and seal descriptions from the earliest of Erdtree Faithful to the Golden Order, which are more vague in details of time. But within the Erdtree Faithful incants are barrier of gold, used in the 1st and 2nd Liurnian wars, when Radagon joins the hero's ranks. When the union of Rennala and Radagon happens, turtle pope describes it as the joining of the Erdtree and moon, it still seems the Erdtree Faithful are the ones in Leyndell. But now Golden Order incants have some intelligence requirements, and we know Radagon learned something intelligent from Rennala. The Golden Order being founded on the removal of death could be similar to something Marika once did for her Erdtree, which was also thought to never end, but is quoted to have come swiftly to a close. This could be when Godwyn died and Ranni never gave the power back, using it to end her own fingers. She could be much older then Rykard and Radahn, trusting Rykard with some power if he ever has to fight Maliketh, who i think is a being on its own. Maliketh needs a vessel, thats it's sole need. But I think it could be that Miquella could be cursed with eternal youth at the moment the Elden Ring of the Erdtree Faithful shattered, Which Radagon could have repaired using law of regression/possibly being a blacksmith. So lets say the ancient dragons were in control of a different ring, in that is has different rules, but still contains the same programs that make those rules. The Erdtree Faithful are the ones who came to the lands between as enemies to everyone, but through countless victories, assumed control. The dragons may have lost the thing that got called the Elden Ring to The Erdtree Faithful. This could have been a shattering before the one we know but that the dragons experienced, leaving their temple ruins scattered around before most major events. But the only reason I tried to make a timeline is for understanding, not pushing my opinion. But I do feel the seals and incantations and staffs and sorceries describe royal family timelines quite well.
Return of the King
When Radagon came then death was removed.Right after the Giants battle.Radagon came from another land with a Golden host.The Shadow lands?
Regarding the Erdtree once being perfect, I think it's more likely that the perceived perfection came first. The Erdtree initially provided an age of plenty, but upon the creation of Golden Seeds, the Golden Order's faith was shaken and they downplayed the Erdtree's status. However, I feel there's a major hypocrisy at work too: Nobody doubts Marika's title of "The Eternal" despite her having kids throughout her reign. The Golden Order applies a double standard, and I feel that Golden Rune [6] might hold the answer as to why:
"Those born at the foot of the Erdtree are blessed. At least, that is the enduring belief of the people of the plateau."
The people of Altus Plateau, namely the original and core members of the Golden Order, believe that proximity to the Erdtree gives them an innate blessing distinct from the "lesser" blessings of the lower runes. Even the first people to serve the Erdtree, per Golden Rune [10]'s description, presumably lived in very close proximity to it as the Golden Order expanded outward from Altus. That would explain why the first people to approach the Erdtree had runes "with the most vivid coloration."
Now, if the Golden Order believes that its members are superior because of their proximity to the Erdtree, the Golden Seeds jeopardize that very notion. If the Erdtree can create additional Erdtrees and spread them across the Lands Between, then people in each nation will eventually be born at the foot of an Erdtree, and these people will have the same blessing that the residents of Altus do. As such, if the people of Altus try to discredit the Erdtree's status and associate their greatness with Marika alone, then they can still claim superiority over other nations.
Considering that the Erdtree is only seen as lesser because its bounties became fewer and it created seeds, it's possible that the Erdtree actually just has fruiting seasons and the periods take a while due to the Erdtree's own astronomical scale. Until the Elden Ring was shattered and the Erdtree was later burned, the source of the Erdtree's diminished reputation may have been people's resentment.
As to the color of primordial gold, I think the Minor Erdtree Church might shed light on the matter. The three minor Erdtrees at the aptly-named church are in a stage of growth between the saplings with Golden Seeds and the towering minor Erdtrees that have Crystal Tears. These particular minor Erdtrees have a fainter glow and the brown of their bark can be partially discerned. This fainter gold and the brown bark may have created an orangish-red image, and the trees are similar to the Icon Shield's depiction of the major Erdtree when it was first growing.
The Arteria Leaves could also be relevant to the matter of Primordial Gold. The leaves of these plants resemble exposed flesh and are said to have a faint pulse. It's almost like the Arteria is a mix of flora and fauna, and its use in the Uplifting and Bloodboil Aromatics could imply a high compatibility with living things, such as Silver Tears' husks and human blood respectively. If the Crucible was once where all life was mixed together, then the fledgling Erdtree may have had Arteria aspects of actual flesh despite being a plant. It could be a stretch, but if the Crucible Knights can manifest aspects of animals and what seems to be a Crucible beast can grow myriad thorns in the DLC trailer, then perhaps animals and plants have a common ancestor, akin to the Elden Beast's own traits.
Now, as to the light of the ancient Erdtree, I feel that Elden Ring's reveal trailer, title screen, and opening provide valuable information as to the natural colors of the Elden Ring itself. In the reveal trailer, we can see various shades of orange, some bordering on red, in the Elden Ring's runes as Marika shatters it and some particles flow like sand. Since the Rune of Death has already been entirely removed by that point in the story's setting, this orangish-red would appear to be a natural shade within the Elden Ring's overall golden color.
The title screen's fragmented Elden Ring, barely held together by Radagon's rune, is likely a depiction of the Elden Ring's current state when the game begins, and thus the Rune of Death is still absent. Finally, the intro artwork shows a slightly orange tinge when Marika shatters the Elden Ring and Radagon repairs it. Based on these factors, any orange or red tinge in the Elden Ring might not have to come from the Rune of Death.
Building on this, it's worth observing the activated Great Runes and the "Mend the Elden Ring" endings to discern each Great Rune's normal state. When the Great Runes are collected, Radahn's has been wreathed in fire to fend off the Scarlet Rot, Rykard's has seemingly been partially digested by the God-Devouring Serpent, Mohg's is rife with the Bloodflame, and Malenia's is afflicted with the Scarlet Rot. Only Morgott, Rennala, and Godrick's Great Runes seem to be gold and untouched, though Godrick's is so faint that it has traces of green in it, akin to poorly-made golden jewelry (and quite appropriate for Godrick's feeble, grandstanding character). Upon mending the Elden Ring, all of these Great Runes are seemingly cleansed and become uniformly golden, round, etc.
Furthermore, the mural of the Elden Ring in Farum Azula, likely a depiction as old as the city itself, only features golden light emanating from the Elden Ring. Since the Rune of Death was likely in the Elden Ring at the time, the Farum Azula mural implies that there wasn't a distinctly red or orange coloration to the Elden Ring in the past. That can also raise the question of why the Rune of Death was red and black with spiky protrusions after Maliketh's defeat, but at the very least, the "neutral" Rune of Death apparently doesn't have a separate color from the other Great Runes or change the Elden Ring's appearance.
With all of this in mind, the ancient Erdtree may have just been gold like the modern Erdtree. There are also paintings in the Fortified Manor/Roundtable Hold depicting an extremely bright, golden Erdtree towering over Leyndell, likely dating back to the age of plenty. Additionally, the Erdtree is noted as getting weaker despite having a golden glow, such as in the Warming Stone's item description, so it might not have been made Immutable through Golden Order Fundamentalism either.
Also, regarding "immutable" traits, Beast Blood would probably be a handy item to analyze. Per its item description, Beast Blood "never rots or decays." I think some things can still die in the Lands Between though, as we find several bodies in random ornate chairs and no apparent signs of foul play. It's also unlikely that beings need a "fate" to die, since the Albinaurics, who aren't compatible with Grace, dissolve nonetheless. Furthermore, the Tarnished have been given their Grace back by Marika and she continually revives them unless she feels they won't become Elden Lord, at which point she ceases giving them guidance and other benefits.
Sellen's case is intriguing, but she's an expert in Primeval Current sorcery, and curiously enough, she still revives if players kill her after Radahn's defeat until her Primal Glintstone is transplanted to a new body. The shattering of the Elden Ring and the state of the Lands Between has resulted in a number of zombie-like people, but a few still seem to outright die. Overall, Erdtree burial likely serves a purpose throughout the Lands Between's history, and it appears that it's meant to bring souls back to the Erdtree and possibly revive them, per the Great Rune of the Unborn.
Regarding the start of the Golden Order itself, the echo of Marika at the Grand Lift of Dectus may help date this event. Melina quotes Marika offering a choice to "Become one with the Order. Or divest thyself of it." The context of the overall quote implies that Marika is speaking to the people who became the Banished Knights, and thus this is probably early into her reign. The use of "the Order" generally relates to the Golden Order, and nothing in the game implies that Marika's unified civilization went by a different name (Ex: The Erdtree Order) in the past. The phrasing of the quote recited at the Minor Erdtree Church likewise implies that the Golden Order already existed, and Marika's comrades might fear delving into the finer workings of the faith in case it has more surprises like Golden Seeds and subsequent Erdtrees, shattering their social hierarchy.
Regarding Maliketh's incantation, his sword seems like it may have originally been gold, or at least much more so than it is now. With how the Blade of Calling works, it's possible that Maliketh's beam slashes were once entirely gold, but they've since been tainted by the mysterious red and black energy on the rune he guarded. It might also be worthwhile to check out Melina's two unique incantations, as they seem to be a faint gold compared to normal Erdtree incantation sigils but without the orange of the Aspect of the Crucible incantations. Also, Elden Stars is said to be the oldest of the Erdtree incantations but depicts a "modern" golden sigil. As for Wave of Gold, the Elden Beast is wielding Radagon's body as a sword to use that technique, and when compared to Litany of Proper Death, the sigil on the ground is actually inverted.
It might be interesting to make a future video investigating why Golden Order Fundamentalism incantations are good against the undead even though it long predates the Night of the Black Knives.
This comment is long enough as is, so I'll leave things at that. Thanks for the video, Last Protagonist!
Can the word for duty here be interpreted to represent something more akin to purpose? Searching for one's purpose, being given one by grace... Conceptually it would be really interesting
My head canon
1. There was some prior order, Marika gain/stole the elden ring and with the help of Godfrey fuck*d them up and chased the fire giants to the top of the mountains.
3. Godfrey conquest the lands between while Marika takes Liurnia by using Radagon (Maybe that's why Radan is a Godfrey fanboy)
4. Godfrey beats his last enemy who was worthy and by by Godfrey and tarnished
5. Radagon and Marika make bebes (if they were merged before, here is where it happens).
6. Godfrey is out? Gloomed eye queen time. God hunt and possible burning of the tree (no more bounty that in some way is related whit births, life or something like that.)
7. Maliketh kills the Gloomed eye queen, the rune of death is taken away from the elden ring and the golden order starts.
(Maybe is here when Radagon and Marika had bebes, Melina being one of them and kind of a reincarnated Gloomed aye queen
And another theory: the Greater Will is the god most related with the elden ring, maybe outer gods (rot, death, chaos, formless mother...) were parts of the original elden ring (Farum Azula) that were taken away so Marika could make the order she wanted. Maybe the fire of the giants and the snake can not be destroyed because their respective runes are still in the ring (being Rycards and Radans). Golden order fundamentalism can't cure Malenia becouse rot is literally out of the orderder.
Maybe Marika removed the rune to unbind it so SHE could die, then it was rebound by the EB and she was reborn as radagon. Marika is radagon. And Marika is nowhere to be found. (Crucified husk)
Of course there was a real tree before the golden tree and it had red flowers and possibly red leaves.
This seems so apparent.
The original tree was watered with blood so reflected its diet.
The golden tree is a spiritual tree and is fed with souls or life energy, that’s why it doesn’t have a tinge of red anymore.
Multiple trees, multiple destructions. Revisionist histories.
Question: why are there no living babies/children (visible) in Elden Ring? The only ‘children’ characters I can think of are not really natural like Miquella and Millicent, but I mean normal babies and children. How were people born?
Hehe “duty”
I think you have to put more stock in the English "translations" for Elden Ring than in other FromSoft games because this is a unique case where GRRM wrote the lore. Many of the terms which people want to translate back into Japanese are probably Japanese translations of GRRM's English terms, and the English words are actually the originals. I also imagine that the English translation team had access to GRRM's original lorebook when producing their translations of item descriptions. I would be really surprised if terms like the Law of Causality were not original to GRRM's lore.
I used to believe the same, but I don't think that's a very reliable way to think about Elden Ring anymore. I believe GRRM wrote the lore up to the Shattering, but everything after is entirely FromSoft. FromSoft also would have made plenty of changes in order for the story to fit within a game world, and I believe even the names of the main cast were ultimately decided by FromSoft (e.g. GRRM wasn't the one who named Godrick "Godrick").
At the end of the day, the version of Elden Ring we have today was created by FromSoft and therefore most accurately written in Japanese. I believe the English translation of Elden Ring is often much better than their previous titles, but I think that's mostly the result of having a better process and resources.
Well actually rereading your comment, I agree that certain things are probably directly from GRRM's English. But I'd still still that while the lore was originally written in English, it was revised and finalized in Japanese as well as the plot itself being pretty much entirely Japanese so I'd still trust the Japanese more.
1di: Godfrey is merely an enforcer of the golden order, conquered and subsumed by it. The actual source of the golden order ideology is either Radagon/Marika or the Greater Will.
come on man i just finished another run of elden ring don't make me start a new one
Yay
So I've always seen it as destined death being removed just stopped aging and natural death. Death in combat would still kill you. We come back from death because it is our fate to come back and change it. That seems to be our curse.
Based on their corpses, I believe destined death was being wielded as a weapon during the subjugation of the giants. Not sure where that fits into the timeline.
mm yes I see *retained nothing*
They have too many contradictions for what grace does and is.Almost as if many people wrote it.The Bible is much more consistent and points to one author that gave direction.Elden Ring is full of holes.I can understand they left things out for imagination,but they left out too many things,in fact there is sooo much left out we do not know who we were what we did let alone chose a side.Make an Accord?Sure whats the hell is going on and who are you first?How does the steed know I am different?And what the hell has happened.Would not lift a sword till i knew that before accepting said accord.
Having that singing carian kids so loud makes it hard to hear what you are saying.
Nice video but I believe it completely disregards environmental evidence.
The facts are clear: Godfrey marched on Farum Azula and Malikeith played a key role in the removal of Destined death also in Farum Azula.
As far as Godfrey is concerned based on the caelid collesum and the golden order statues in Sellia, Godfrey fought SOMETHING or someone in CAELID(he was probably on his way back home from CAELID [ SMOULDERING CHURCH sword monument].
Environmental evidence also shows that before Farum Azula was sent to the sky, Farum Azula was land locked to CAELID based on similar architecture to the BESTIAL SANCTUM and Farum great bridge
when he was divested of his grace.
Farum Azula seems to have been in the air for ages, and almost no trace of its architecture, or even beastmen, remains in the Lands Between, save for the meteorite impact debris. We find no Leyndell war banners in Farum Azula either. We also don't know where the Gloam-Eyed Queen reigned from, though the serpentine tail on the Godskin Nobles has led people to speculate that it was Volcano Manor.
@@nightscout9979 this isn't true. The BESTIAL SANCTUM where you give garranq the death root and the surrounding area looks exactly like Farum Azula. It even has the same beastmen remains scattered throughout the area. You aren't being serious