Is the death birds the orignal inhabitants and what about the spirit ancestors underground? They could have been the orignal people in the lands and the greater will took over and used them just like the other outer gods. I could be wrong I stopped playing ER for a bit life got busy.
Do you think you could possibly dive into the Alabaster and onyx lords because I think it would be could cool to put their story together. They are so obscure and seem to have been around for centuries possibly even before the erdtree.
You think the two finger talisman made to mock the greater will, since we found a shabiri grape next to the chest? Not sure who made it but a grape seems to suggest something. Now I don't trust the frenzy flame that are next to other areas or things. Thank God for mohg and morgit for keeping that thing sealed deep below.
I had always assumed the Greater Will to be more of an “inner” god, which is to say an outer god that was treated differently because, well, it won. It gained control of the Lands Between, has its vassals in charge, and subsequently has by far the widest support base among its inhabitants. This is a really interesting take on the matter though, and I can totally see that being the intended nature of things. Great video!
That’s my take as well. That also allows the Three Fingers to both be an Outer god and a former part of a unified 5 fingered hand. In being severed and exiled the 3 fingers move from “inner” to Outer god status with a desire to return to one.
@@SmoughTown That's literally not what an "Outergod" is. Lovecraftian incomprehensible beings that can't be explained with our logic . This game afterall.. doesn't give us "insight". I think They just used the title outergods as something that will remain unexplained .
I'd argue that the Frenzied Flame could potentilly be a gnostic counterpart to the Greater Will not only because of the fingers & maidens parallel, but because it too posesses something that other Outer Gods do not: the capacity to enact complete destruction. Not corruption, not rebirth, not transformation, but utter anihilation: the opposite of creation. "Melt it all away, with the yellow chaos flame." There is also the philosophical implication of the Lord of Chaos ending, which asks the player the Shakesperean question "to Be or not to Be". Five fingers represent intelligence, as seen with the Beastmen, but the Two Fingers answer "to Be", whereas the Three Fingers clearly reply: "not to Be". There is a conscious choice, exerted trough sentience. The parallels with the Greater Will are too big to ignore, especially when this deity has a goal that doesn't just happen to clash with the Greater Will's plans, but exisits in direct opposition to it. Unlike the others, who merely wish to take control of Life, the Frenzied flame seeks to undo it altogether, for "It is chaos, devouring life and thought unending". There are also parallels on items such as the Frenzyflame Stone & Warming Stone, as well as unique game interactions like the fact that killing Hyetta fulfills the requisites for Varre's questline, meaning Hyetta is somehow a true Finger Maiden and not some impostor, despite being unrealted to the Two Fingers and the Greater Will.
I think you're really on to something by likening the frenzied flame to the gnostics. The radical denial of the material, complete anti-incarnation theology, this is what Shabriri (who is a demon possessing a corpse) preaches to the player, and it's what the gnostics believed. He leverages the absolute trauma of sacrificing Melina against us to convince us the world would be better off as a formless void. Shabriri is also the name of a demon of blindness in Jewish mythology. After all, Shabriri grapes are eyes. This is also related to gnosticism's idea of a "blind god." It is indeed poor perception (sight) that would make you want to destroy existence rather than suffer temporarily.
@@OrchinX Just to follow up on the "Shabriri is also the name of a demon of blindness", doesn't Shabriri cover his eyes while he's talking to the player?
It would make sense if the outer gods can be seen as analogous to demons as the greater will is analogous to God, then the path of the Lord of frenzied flame is the path of Satan and the antichrist. Good catch on that.
Yellow Chaos Flame = golden chaos flame. Very similar colors. It could have been called the golden chaos flame even. Then it would be more obvious. No other outer gods/gods use yellow/gold like the greater will and the frenzy flame as far as I can remember.
I'm Italian and when you pulled out a reference from Sabaku no Maiku you really caught me off guard! He's been a legend in the community for years, and has made some truly insightful lore run as well as blind runs of all From games, can't show him enough love, he's truly one of a kind! Once again from you Geoff, another fantastic video! You still manage to surprise me with your work ethic lol
@Crows Wit He doesn't actually murder Gold Mask, Gold Mask dies creating his mending rune regardless of whether Corhyn is present or not. If you offer Corhyn the Tonic of Forgetfulness he will remain in the mountaintop of the giants whilst Gold Mask returns to Leyndell.
I didn't get any killer vibes from him. Yea maybe he went crazy but he wouldn't kill goldmask. The way i saw it, GM gave everything he could give to gestate the mending rune, and fell slain once he knew the rune was created
@Crows Wit to be fair, as another user said, Goldmask is still dead in the same position even if Corhyn is given the Tonic. To accumulate these two possible circumstances, it would imply Corhyn actually is not a killer. He just went mad at the end.
The most likely and prevailing theory in my head is that all of the gods we know of came from one original or "whole" being. The Greater Will just happened to be the main one after the split. It could also be possible that the Greater Will and Frenzied Flame were once whole and eventually split apart due to being so different, and that the rest of the gods either represent smaller fragments of that whole being after it was torn apart, or that they're completely different and external beings.
The 3 fingers are the missing half of the two fingers, resulting in the golden order only getting half of the greater wills message. The frenzied flame is the greater will attempting to basically reformat the lands between and start over because its too corrupted now. Or at least that's my theory.
@@TheBonePirate The frenzied flame is attempting bring the two and three fingers back together to fully channel the greater will. Its a tool of the greater will.
Yet another great video. I have some thoughts... The idea that the Greater Will is not an Outer God changes the way we see Miquella. Miquella's Needle is said to resist the influence of Outer Gods and always refers to the Frenzied Flame, it can only be used in the storm beyond time. Note that this item does not remove Grace, so does not sever us from the Greater Will. So Miquella is not trying to build technology to break away from the Greater Will (similar to Ranni) but, I believe, he is trying to restore the Order to a time before it is was afflicted by outer Gods in it's time of unalloyed gold. Next is how the Greater Will used to be complete and represented by five fingers and unalloyed gold but is now missing three fingers, represented by two fingers and an alloyed gold. The first and most prominent feature we literally see of the Elden Beast is it's five fingers, which is uses to grasp it's tool, Radagon / Sacred Relic Sword. This is reflected in the ancient dragons, the and beast men and humans. As pointed out in the video, the greater will could have created the dragons in it's own image. Placi used to have his five heads, is missing three and now only has two. If the greater will used five fingers then, why are its envoys now two fingers not five. The ancient dragons ruled in a time of (more)perfect order of unalloyed gold that has since degraded. The modern dragons do not have these fiver fingers, do not have gold flesh, can not wield the tool of lightning and can not transform into humans, a state used by ancient dragons for socialisation and diplomacy (intelligence). It seems they have lost their connection to the greater will and thus lost their five fingers. Another loose connection for me, is that I believe the GEQ was a God before Marika (long story) and is said be chosen by her own 'fingers' not two fingers. Another unrelated thought. There is a recurring symbolism of eight orbs surrounding one. For Example, in the giants eye, the imbedded meteorites on top of divine towers, on astrolabes and many other minor places. I have a hunch that these orbs represent planets around a central sun, the stellar bodies are being studied via the astrolabes by ancient astrologers. Like in Roman and Greek religion the planets represent gods, in Elden Ring these could be the outer gods. Outer since they are not the central point (We may have more Outer Gods to discover in DLC). The central point is the sun / Greater Will. In the game, the symbolism of the sun is noticeably absent, the Greater Will and Erdtree take on the role of the sun symbolically.
There are actually two mentions of Sun in the lore. One is at Castle Sol and how the spirit after the boss talks about how the Sun is yet to be swallowed. And the other is on the Skeleton Knight enemies shields that talks about a Sun City.
I've posted this before, but the original comment lacked some info. The DLC confirms this. The Greater Will is, no more no less, than the prime mover or first cause of the Elden Ring universe, having been the one who caused the series equivalent of the big bang. As Count Ymir puts it: "I am a glintstone sorcerer. We study the stars, and examine the life therein. Are you familiar with our findings? Long ago, we began as stardust, born of a great rupture far across the skies. We, too, are children of the Greater Will. Is that not divine? Is that not sublime? ...and yet, none can fathom its implications, its utter brilliance! " Or, if you want a less ambiguous version, a rough translation of Ymir's Japanese text instead says: "I am a gemstone magician. I explore the stars and their life. Do you know? We are all stardust, born from a distant explosion. We are also children of the Great Will. How poetic. How wonderful. But sadly, no one understands this." Adding to the above, the description of Ymir's hat mentions "the Greater Will and its lightless abyss". The word the Japanese text uses for "abyss" in this sentence is 深淵 (shin'en), which is the Japanese term for the biblical primordial waters from which the ordered world is created. In contrast, the term for abyss in reference to places such as the Abyssal Woods is 奈落 (nakaru), which basically means "hell". The Greater Will is God with a capital G. Meanwhile, the Outer Gods (as implied by DLC lore and what we are given by the base game), are things that prey on misery and tragedy to gain influence. The Formless Mother and the Flame of Frenzy being prime examples of this.
According to the new lore revolving around Rot, it appears to have been much more benevolent and less destructive in the past and only became the destructive Scarlet Rot when Romina began to manipulate this element. I don't think they are malevolent creatures but rather other aspects of the universe derived from GW itself
If anything I think the new dlc makes it a lot more ambiguous how much direct action the Greater Will has taken. We can say with pretty close certainty that it was probably the thing that fractured the One Great and began the universe, hence the big bang, but beyond that I think all actions attributed to the Greater Will can be chalked up to it being a deification of outer space. All the direct actions we've seen it take, beyond the big bang, were just it "sending" things from space to crash onto the lands between, which really could just be interpreted as things coming from space. Us being "children of the greater will" because we come from stardust/outer space reinforces this. The "lightless abyss" of the Greater Will is just outer space, because it is outer space. The lore with Metyr also calls into question whether or not it had ever really communicated with the lands between in the first place.
It’s not an absolute God in the Christian sense. It is more of a Gnostic demiurge. He doesn’t create from nothing: he introduces degrees of separation and structure (order)
@@NUCLEARxREDACTED the frenzied flame acolyte blames the greater will for creating life and separation from the originary chaos. So even the enemies of the greater will accept it as the creator of life and organised universe
@@chronoshindou9848 I wouldn't really say that for certain - the Three Fingers and the Frenzied Flame seem much morel like a Throwback to Demon's Souls and the Old One. The message of the Three Fingers implies that they represent a fragment of the One Great that regrets in creation, whereas the Greater Will and the Two Fingers does not regret in creation. You might even say that the Three Fingers represents the "Lesser Will" (being significantly less divided and split), seeking to recreate the One Great in its totality. The Law of Causality and Regression are concepts within the Golden Order supported by the Greater Will, and wouldn't map onto the Three Fingers or the Frenzied Flame.
@@monsieurdorgat6864 except the Three Fingers expressly declare a desire for exactly what Regression describes. The Golden Order Fundamentalists are looking for deeper cosmic realities that the Golden Order describes, and they’ve found laws older than the Erdtree - the laws of fracture and holism, causality and regression. The creation of separate things and the desire to melt everything together.
@@WanderedIn Eh, they're not looking for laws older than the Erdtree and provably so because they spurn the crucible. Regression is a conformance to the norm, i.e. that things converge, but not necessarily converge to their original form. Again, that would be the devolution described by Crucible talismans that are disdained. The Golden Order and its fundamentalists also despise the Three Fingers and its servants. Clearly their goals are very different.
@@WanderedIn Which is also the history of the adherents of the Christian faith, as Puritans sought to unravel the secrets of God's natural world to be closer to him, but instead uncovered the very things which undermined their faith and brought about the Enlightenment, and the fading of faith.
As someone who watches a lot of Tolkien videos and has researched that whole universe for about a decade now i gotta say id love to see you cover the Tolkien lore!! You seem to be very knowledgeable on it and with your lore formats it would be sick to see you do them!
I believe the One Great was basically the Prima Materia and the Greater Will was the crafter. This world is full of references to Metal, and the earliest form of the Erdtree was The Crucible, as you said basically a kiln to melt metal and separate alloys. Then the world went through ages; Stone Age for Dragons all the way up to the Gold Age under The Order and Marika. And over that time we got many races and peoples represented by metals: Gold for the Order, Iron for the Giants (Irons rust red), Stone for the Dragons with gold in them (in their veins like mines, imperfect), some form of black material like obsidian for the Death birds, Alloyed Gold intended for Miquella (love the concept for that, because Alloy is metal mixed with other material, in other words "Accepting Gold"). We are even called Tarnished, as in tarnished Metal, unclean. And note most of the Outer Gods represent things that taint, change, or are made of metals: 3 flames (fell, ghost and frenzy), 2 liquids (rot like oxidized metal and blood which has iron in it). Also how do I contact Smoughtown if possible? I'd like to tell him a theory privately.
I'd love your theories on the Jellyfish spirits. I've been so sure that there's some kind of cosmic outer god as a jelly fish. We see SO many of them near shrines, places of interest and there seems to be a lot of environmental storytelling of bodies near beaches and others circumstances where it seems there may be something in the ocean. Some people become ghosts, but jellyfish seem to also act like spirits and we know some are intelligent with speech.
Death is being symbolized with the ocean just like in Dark Souls. The First Flame's counterpart that was doomed to end it was the ever rising Deep created by the Dark Soul. Oceans all become eventual abysses that stop all light from reaching their depths and also extinguish fire. It's why Godwyn is transforming into something aquatic, as that symbolizes death.
Currently writing a really immense essay on Marika’s motivations and her character more generally, definitely gonna be drawing on this when discussing her relationship to the Greater Will
@AverageGamerGuy I write about games generally; think pieces, reviews all that, but I’ve been enjoying working on this big chonky lore piece for a change - it’s very much a passion project! I did a way shorter timeline than yours, and this is sort of an accompaniment about how Marika would have felt at different points throughout her story, and what must have motivated her! Do you have a blog or something where youd publish your timeline? I’d love to read it!
Honestly, I'm not sure this is a good one. I think the speculative framing put here is not only highly discontinuous with Fromsoftware's previous storytelling and inclinations, but also ignores very important details in order to support that spurious frame. While I've certainly internalized some points from this to revise my conception, I would say I overall disagree with the thesis of this video. This video is honestly a better example of how our inevitable biases shape how we frame our ideas - in this case, it's clear that SmoughTown really likes applying a Tolkien/Abrahamic frame, even when it's pretty debatable whether there's evidence for that frame. So much of this story takes inspiration from Abrahamic faiths, only to be subversive of that inspiration, to take that as your overall frame of understanding.
Your theory ended up being quite true, in dlc ymir tell us that we are the children of the greater will and born of “stardust”, using your theory as foundation, the stardust of the Elden Star. The Greater will is very neutral on what happens in the lands between, intervening only when: the nox committed their great betrayal against the greater will itself (which i think it was wounding metyr with the fingers-layer blade) and the punishment of Marika after she broke the Elden Ring.
The golden star makes sense because the first civilizations essentially worship meteorites. We see these meteorites are all gold. The meteorites probably broke off runes which gave life to the planet such as Stone
The Greater Will and the Two Fingers were always the biggest mystery to me while playing through the first, and this video completely contextualizes the whole game brilliantly. Best video yet!
In my opinion the way which both Placidusax and the two fingers are looking/pointing up is too similar to be a coincidence. Maybe this gesture is a sign of the inhabitants of the former order when they get replaced.
I think Placidusax just chooses to do that. Like you said it's very similar to how the Two Fingers point up. Enia tells the Tarnished when the Two Fingers take this pose that they're communing with the Greater Will. Placidusax was once the Elden Lord before the Golden Order was established or at least was so powerful in his prime that he was simply the equivalent of one. The dragons too had their own Outer God. Possibly an earlier version of the Greater Will, just like how they have what seems to be an earlier version of the Elden Ring. Placidusax is there in that pose waiting for his Outer God to return. Possibly even praying, in desperation or hopelessness.
Where are people getting 5 heads from. I've literally looked over every last inch of him and unless you mean the spot where the tip of his tail would be, there is literally no spot where a 5th head could go. The description of the Old Lord's Talisman is literally like "Hey, you know that TWO headed dragon you fought in the ancient flying graveyard inside of a tornado at the beginning and end of time? Yeah, he used to be this FOUR headed dragon that I literally look exactly like".
Yes I've watched the Zullie video and saw absolutely nothing that looks like a spot where a 5th head could be and like I said, I looked over every inch of the guy. There is simply nowhere a 5th head could be. Zullie made a typo, I'd hope, because with how on the money they usually are with game information I don't think they'd believe something so obviously not true and I was also hoping that I'd get an answer other than Zullie's video because I already saw it and it was exactly why I asked.
@@ForeverLaxx I've literally looked at it every which way possible and there's literally no place for a 5th head. I don't know what to tell you besides you're clearly just making shit up. There is no third stump. Literally nothing and no one in the game says he's ever had five heads and there is no official informational website about the game that claims he's ever had 5 heads either. I even watched the Zullie video multiple times. It's not there.
Honestly Hyetta's dialogue to me crucially shows that the Greater Will is *NOT* the creator God (if one exists). The One Great _already existed!_ It was _not_ "created" by the Greater Will but rather "fractured". To me that is what the Greater Will does: it divides, it distinguishes because that is the basis for (non-trivial) "order". It is the Outer God of Disparity, and much like the First Flame there was a world of uniform grey before it. The Erdtree burial system seems to be "recycling" life rather than "creating" it as well. What sets it apart, and why I do agree with the designation as an "Inner" God, is that the Greater Will _already won_ the struggle for dominance. At least from a long time ago until now if you become Lord of Frenzied Flame. History is written by the victors after all, the other Outer Gods are expunged or sealed and the very concepts of "history" and "intelligent" life are close to the purview of order. Plus most of the Abrahamic symbolism originates from the mortal and flawed beneficiaries of the Greater Will rather than more direct guidance (I suppose Marika's crucifixion is a counterexample, but then Marika herself is more of a Babel- or Lucifer-like antagonist than the self-sacrificing Son of God). Of course none of this outright disproves the possibility of the Greater Will being the creator God, or being the primary shard of It after fracturing Itself, but I really do not understand your fixation on "creation" when Hyetta so clearly claims the prior existence of the One Great and even describes the action of the Greater Will as a "mistake" i.e. corruption. Although granted this is _the Frenzied Flame_ speaking and with it being deceptive, hypocritical and self-perpetuating it does remind me of the Mephistopheles depiction of the devil: _"I am the Spirit that Denies!_ _And justly so: for all things, from the Void_ _Called forth, deserve to be destroyed:_ _'Twere better, then, were naught created._ _Thus, all which you as Sin have rated,-_ _Destruction,-aught with Evil blent,-_ _That is my proper element."_ - Faust I, Goethe
This is more in line with how I see it. I don't think TGW is actually any different than the OGs, except in one crucial aspect. TGW has taken dominion over this shard of reality. The OGs and TGW are equal entities, which is why the OGs structure their followers, and act in the same manner. It's because they're making incursions into this reality, rather than personally holding it, that they do not have the same sway or reverence as TGW does. In the other shards of reality that were split from the One Great, if an OG had laid claim and TGW were the one making an incursion to corrupt and ultimately take control, their roles would be reversed. TGW would have the lesser station/influence of an OG, while its OG owner would appear as TGW does here. As an "Abrahamic" god whose dominion is under siege by outer influences. Because, if they were beings at different levels of existence, why are WE the ones thwarting or advancing their plans? TGW would stand above the OGs and only their joint efforts would overcome it. But none of them are interested in the philosophies of their OG brethren. Which makes sense if they're all just equals fighting over their toys. TGW may even actually be engaged in this same sort of action amongst the other shards. They all may. Because most of them certainly appear to have their own territories. Mogh literally stabs into one to gain its power.
The Frenzied Flame seems like a huge throwback to Demon's Souls and the Old One - the Three Fingers and the god it represented were a fragment of the One Great that regretted Creation, and seek to reform the One Great in its totality. I also largely disagree with this video. It also ignores how the Crucible "blended life together" - that is, _reshaping currently existing life_ , and not creating it. This heavily implies that the Elden Beast is no different than any of the other Outer Gods. If you were to be charitable, the Greater Will may, by its very name, be the largest or most affective fragment of the One Great, as it clearly seeks to continue the current process of fracturing the One Great.
In many creation Myths there is some type of primoradial essence that just exists and a creator god that also just exists. The God then moulds that essence into the world. For example Genesis: [1:1] In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, [1:2] the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. Or Babylonian Myth In the beginning, there was only undifferentiated water swirling in chaos. Out of this swirl, the waters divided into sweet, fresh water, known as the god Apsu, and salty bitter water, the goddess Tiamat. Once differentiated, the union of these two entities gave birth to the younger gods.
It's interesting that the Frenzied Flame's only wish for its reign is to return to the One Great, with no other will to rule in any way. Makes me wonder if the Outer Gods aren't somehow offspring of the One Great, with the Flame regretting the split from the original form of life and seeking only to return to it, like how Ranginui and Papatūānuku were separated in Māori creation stories, with the Greater Will acting as Tāne (or Tangaroa, as the case may be) and separating them with the other Outer Gods as Tāne's siblings (although, in this case, while they likely agreed with the will on the separation of the One Great, they were probably racing to get there first) and the Flame as the regretful Tāwhirimātea, who wants the world back as it was.
I feel like the game's Norse inspirations are very frequently overlooked. While I don't mean this as any sort of thesis, the story of Ymir in Norse mythology is a fairly accurate parallel to the One Great and its fracture, and Odin a parallel to the Greater Will. Radagon seems directly influenced by the red-haired, hammer wielding Thor as well; Thor was often a vassal of Odin, as Radagon/ Marika is to the Greater Will. Just food for thought.
This, and blend in some historical, and even religious texts behind alchemy and the alchemical rebis and the picture of Elden Ring already becomes more clear. This seems to be George Martins influence on the story. Whereas things like the runes and these concepts of order and disparity we see in the game are heavily tied to Miyazaki as disparity was the concept used in Dark Souls to explain how the age of fire came to be from the age of the everlasting dragons.
Radagon also works as a parallel for Norse Gods as they were all many things at once. Radagon's red hair also suggests relation with the red haired giants of the mountains, and like Thor, he purged the absolute living hell out of them.
Godfrey seems more of the Thor lite in this game. Big strong warrior used as a weapon to eliminate the enemies of the greater will/ its chosen Marika, and is known as being fundamentally the strongest of all and almost entirely unbeatable in a game of fisty cuffs. He slaughters the giants, drives off placidusax, conquers the dragons, and defeats the storm king. I don’t really see many parallels of Thor in Radagon as Thor was the most straight forward of all the Norse gods, and preferred a straight head on fight rather than subterfuge and political marriages.
Norse myth was often concerned with the natural inevitability of fate and such. Fitting for a Miyazaki work. Ragnarok was always fated to happen, it was inevitable. By shackling the stars Radagon hindered fate from following its course. Looking at it through the lens of Norse myth, it would be like forbidding ragnarok from happening (or rather, delaying it for an indeterminate amount of time). I According to myth Ragnarok was not the end of the world however. Many old gods died, but the world was still there. Things merely changed. Much like in some of the Elden Ring endings, or at least the ones who don't simply prolong the age of the Erdtree. Kinda forgot the Norse inspirations in the game, not gonna lie, so thanks for reminding me. Interesting to think about
I haven't watched the Full Video, since currently am at work, but I would like to point out something: Miquella's Needle works when you become the Lord of Frenzy, and it is stated to exclusively cure the meddling of OUTER GODS. This automatically means the Three Fingers and Frenzied Flame have their own Outer God, and the Two Fingers and Greater Will being their exact opposites (Order being opposite of Chaos) also imply they are an Outer God too. Sure one can say Greater Will is "stronger" or have more influence over Lands Between than other Outer Gods, but in the end it still is one of the Outer Gods. Just one of the more prominent and benevolent ones. I will edit this comment later if i find anything noticeable after seeing your video though. EDIT1: The concept of Five Fingers is actually important, considering how the Conquedea outright states that a Beast's Five Fingers is symbolic of the intelligence granted upon their kind. Outright hinting at the existence of Five Fingers, so the concept cannot be easily ditched.
@@pigzy9807 98% chance it's just a gameplay thing but still worth noting that since Miquella was a Golden Order Fundamentalist, it wouldn't make much sense for his Unalloyed Gold needle to cut us off from the Guidance of Grace. Just a thought. Not sure if it's a good one.
The Elden Beast has five fingers, is the thing. And what is intelligence, but Will? The Greater Will’s two fingers are representative of guidance - each number of fingers has a particular meaning in the Lands between. There is ‘misfortune’ (three is an unlucky number) and the Frenzied Flame speaks a gospel of misfortune, of God’s mistake in the creation of life and separate existence when once there was only one God.
Grace isn't actually something controlled by Greater Will, it's actually controlled by Marika. As evidenced by her dialogue with Godfrey regarding his banishment, and how the Tarnished revives at Stakes of Marika, implying she is the one who keeps reviving us through Grace. Miquella's needle only controls Outer Gods, but Marika is no Outer God.
@@WanderedIn Are you using your christian beliefs to try to make a point? there´s no lore to support that 2 fingers is representative of guidance and 3 fingers of misfortune (that´s is a christian superstition) The elden beast is Radagon phase 3 and has 5 fingers because is the Greater Will taking fully control of Radagon´s body...if you look carefully at one of the sides of Radagon you will see that is totally busted but is like something dark and golden is inside him...just the same thing that composes the EB body...
One thing to note is that the ulcerated tree spirits do have a sort of corrupted version of golden flames, including a corrupted golden flame breath. This makes sense though, since the erdtree avatars also wield abilities similar to the elden beast, and the ulcerated tree spirits seem to be similar beings to the avatars, both being plant like beings born from the erdtree. So it would make sense for them to also have abilities similar to the Elden Beast.
The ulcerated Tree Spirits seem to be Erdtree Avatars whose Erdtree has been destroyed; iirc you always find them in places where a minor Erdtree would be but has been destroyed. It makes sense as a sort of Shinto spirit
Thanks for the great vid as always!! As a sidenote, I love the voice actor for Shabriri when you talk to him in the mountains - how he slowly reveals his insanity, as he starts being too eager about chaos lol.
Great video as always. I love that you and the other “souls tubers” are working together on your projects. Good to see you all engaging in jolly cooperation.
I really appreciate your references to everything- other philosophies, TH-camrs, etc. It gives a more full story than just "hey here's my opinion!" I just found this channel and I'm really enjoying your content, thank you :D
I’d argue the Elden Beast itself is likely the source from which all life sprang forth. It has an amorphous, blobby body like an amoeba, but is clearly hard and brittle on the outside like a reptile, as evidenced by the shattering noises when we hit it. It has insectoid/draconic wings, yet has a tail somewhere between a shark, a scorpion, and whatever you call that dinosaur with a mace for a tail. It is also bipedal and has humanoid digits. The Elden Beast is basically what you’d get if every single creature both real and imaginary regressed into one being
If we're to believe what the Frenzied Flame says, everything including all of the Outer Gods, used to be one thing. Like a one is all, all is one kind of god. Hyetta refers to it as an entity called The One Great. She also says the Greater Will made a mistake. Other in game things say that the Crucible was where all life came from (possibly meaning only mortal life as how could you be the source of all life without being alive). The Crucible being theorized to be when the Great Tree and the Erdtree were one. What this implies is that either Hyetta is merely referring to that or there was something even longer ago than that, where literally every last thing was one being, or it was nothing at all, and just like life in reality just magically happened, so too did the Greater Will magically develop its own consciousness within the primordial cesspool and the mistake it made was breaking off from it, creating the concept of change. As when everything is one or is nothing, nothing can happen and nothing can change. That being said it is also most likely that the Greater Will is the Outer God that would most closely resemble The One Great in power and appearance.
Just to add to this idea. The Elden Stars is the most ancient Erdtree Incantation, wich means it predates the Crucible incantaions. This could be a good hint for that the Elden Beasts arrival predates, or even caused the Crucible to come to existence.
I dunno. That people understand the Elden Beast arrived from a star, and recorded this, hints to me that life, sapient life, already existed before its arrival.
@@dantoki6371 Crucible came before Erdtree and Elden Beast but not before the Greater Will itself. The Crucible is basically just the Erdtree before the Greater Will sent down the Elden Beast like how in Farum Azula where Placidusax was the equivalent of Elden Lord before the Golden Order was even established, has an older, larger Elden Ring.
If Death & the Deathbirds reigned prior to the age of the Erdtree then wouldn't that mean the Greater Will at some point usurped Death's power or at least unseated it? That makes me think the GW also came from "without" rather than being intrinsic to the Lands Between. Also, if the Greater Will sent the Elden Beast & Elden Ring down to The Lands Between, where did it send them from? It just seems from that language that at one time the GW resided outside of the Lands Between rather than being inherent to it.
In my opinion I think most outer gods and the Deathbirds just want to reign over their area of expertise. I think this Death outer god oversaw the rules of Death, until the Greater Will decided it didn't want Death to be done that way any more and shafted it The Greater Will isn't and never was physically inside or on the Lands Between itself, just as the Abrahamic God is not visible to humans, it just effects change to the world and communicates with its chosen. It willed a meteor containing the Elden beast to crash to the land to begin it's world the way it wanted
@@115UndeadAnarchy115 so the other Outer gods might have sent representatives that were once or potentially still currently dwell in the Lands Between?
@@ioncewasmikey Like Smough says, the Outer Gods just don't seem to be on the same level of power like that of the Greater Will. They seem to be able to manifest physically (see Rot Scorpion Outer God, and I personally believe the Frenzy Outer God was manifested as the Three Fingers until it entered our body like a parasite), and the Death Outer God still has envoys in the Deathbirds. What we don't know is their intentions, really
I cannot believe how quickly you churn out these videos. They're extremely comprehensive but you also put the time in to add visuals. You're one of my favorite souls loretubers
I'm still of the opinion that the Greater Will is not fundamentally a different type of being from the outer gods, the M.O. just seems too similar, especially with the Elden Beast's golden flame seeming directly analogous to the fell god/frenzied/blood/black/ghost flames associated with the outer gods. Beyond that, the biggest sticking points for me are 1. the Elden Beast came from the stars, bringing the Elden Ring with it, suggesting that the power of the Greater Will is external to the world of the lands between similar to the outer gods, and 2. the act of creation you focus on setting it apart from the outer gods does seem directly analogous to the corruption/mutation of pre-existing life that the outer gods do, considering that as far as I know nothing suggests that it actually made the One Great, there was some type of life here already when it arrived, and it instilled division and diversity to it, build its order and ideals into life the same way the outer gods mutate life to fit their ideals. The Crucible was the first step in that, where creatures began to live and be born and die and have souls, but still melded and shared features, and was futher refined in later ages to have stricter separation and classifications of creatures as separate things, with their place in the order of the world. I imagine the influence of the Outer Gods might see similar progressions, with Caelid and the Dynastry of Blood just being the primordial forms of the eventual worlds of those respective gods, being influenced by what was there before to some degree, and later ages of those gods might be very different. It's a good video, and well argued, but in the end I have to echo the sentiment of some others here in the comments; to me it seems most likely that the Greater Will is just the Outer God currently In Office, and who's had the chance to affect life and this world the longest.
I think that considering the fact that the Elden Beast was sent to the lands between just confirms that the Greater Will is indeed an outer god. Of course the descriptions of items that were constructed after the Greater Will started to exert it's influence in the Lands Between and set itself as the one and only will be referring to it as an god not an outer god
@@SmoughTown only now I finished the video, good video btw. Now, although I think it's a good video, I just think you perhaps forgot about the Elden Beast while thinking it through. For me the Greater Will was solely one of the first ones to arrive in the Lands Between, along with the death god from the birds and perhaps with the Scarlet Rot god, but it was the fastest to stablish itself, spread and change the environment to it's will
The in-game descriptions are (and always have been in FromSoft games) true, albeit often ambiguous. In fact, ambiguous by necessity of that veracity. And while they are often information that someone in-universe would know if familiar with the item, they are just as often character's literal thoughts/feelings. That is to say, the item descriptions are non-diegetic, spoken by an omniscient narrator, and should not be considered to be influenced in a meta way by the ideology of this or that in game character.** All that is to say, and I haven't watched the video and am not sure I will, the Greater Will is definitively unambiguously an "Outer God" insofar as Outer Gods are entities literally outside the world at large (implied by the existence of other more-mundane lands accessible by boat, rather than elden-beast-laden-comet-hurdling, from the lands between) If the whole thesis of this video is just that "outer god" is textually referring to "gods outside of grace," I suppose that's a possible interpretation. **On that note, FromSoftware character dialogue is NOT omniscient nor almost *ever* truthful. There are so many reasons to be suspicious of Hyetta and "the One Great," and it's a really weak and peripheral element to base so much theorizing on.
So my thought is that if there was only one kind of life and everything was one there would be no need for something that loves order to send the elden beasts to that place because everything would have been in order cuz everything was the same. if it was sent there that means they must have already been differences there and a lack of order
@@allorgansnobody I don't think you got my point. I know the items are like characters thoughts, but Smough referenced the Greater Will are a parallel to God (Cristian and the likes kind of god), and what happens on those religions is that their god is considered as the one and only, the same parallel can be extended to the Greater Will. Since in ER the Outer Gods have wills and actual palpable influence and are not something impossible to be proven to even exist (much like the gods from the real world) the descriptions of items could very well have their influence when it comes to describing itself as the one and only true God. You get what I mean? In FS games we have actual deities or god-like beings that influence the world in a palpable and direct way, so we can't assume that the items descriptions are exempt from ideology, because they are not. The world has been existing for long and said gods/god-like beings surely imposed their ideology onto the world and chased away those that disagree with it. In ER case this is ridiculously more evident. The Greater Will, through Marika, chased away the fire giants, stole the concept of death and made it so that any other means of death (death birds, the gloom eyes queen and her's Godskin) would be considered somewhat of heretic, much like fire is the utmost sin, not to mention their wars against the wizards that could very well hold their ground to the point that Marika would not win, she needed to call for a truce and then a fake marriage just to get the wizards "in check". I don't know if I diverged myself too much but hope my point has been clarified.
Great video…as per usual. Even though I stopped playing once I got the platinum, your videos always give more to think about and point out thing I’ve missed and makes me excited to get back after the dlc drops.
I always viewed Ungoliant as a personification of the chaos strewn into the song of creation, thus why she aided Melkor. And Tom Bombadil being a personification of the order of the song of creation.
that´s a amazing (and beautiful) pov...I always though that TB was Tolkien himself...you know, the creator making a character for himself and putting his own pov about things...
Sorry I missed your comment! I also like this theory, but imo the main point to bear in mind is that seeing Ungoliant as simply outside of Eru's creation doesn't make sense within Tolkien's overall Catholic metaphysics.
Great video, as always! I'm going to be chewing on this one for awhile. Like any well-presented thesis, IDK if I totally agree, yet I have gotten some additional perspective and richness that will carry itself into my time and appreciation of the game and it's world.
This video made me think about the fact that for a long time, the Greater Will has been viewed as a bad thing by a lot of people in the lore community, for reasons such as the treatment of the omen and those who live in death, etc. But, when you really look at it, all those awful things that resulted from order werent put in place by the greater will. It was gods, demigods, and mortals that decided these things, based on their own interpretation of order. The greater will is a passive force in the world, only acting directly when absolutely necessary to avoid a complete breakdown of order.
This isn't to say it doesn't have a single flaw. It is an inherently selfish force, doing whatever it must to preserve its own power, though I have to wonder how much of that is it acting directly and how much is the two fingers taking matters into their own hands, as we know they can do based on the events of the game.
I think you're totally right, especially because I think a lot of people conflate the Greater Will with the Golden Order and forget that the Crucible is not only part of the Greater Will but arguably more in line with its actual qualities because not as much had been cut out from the Elden Ring yet. I think the Golden Order shows how the concept of "order" can change from something more like "structure/organization" in a biological/(meta)physical sense, to something more like "control/domination" in a sociopolitical and religious sense.
I am actually glad more and more people are actually researching into Greater Will's qualities instead of the Outer Gods for once. For once poeple are realising that the GW may not actually be bad and the "Ruling God bad" thought train seems to be actually wrong, and rather it's the mortals such as Marika that are at fault, something which Goldmask realised after his long communication with (possibly) the Greater Will. As for the reply above me, yes you are absolutely correct about Crucible and Greater Will's connection. Elden Stars , a LEGENDARY spell, is described as the "MOST ancient of spells that derives from Erdtree". On the other hand the Aspects of Crucible spells, are only said as "Ancient Erdtree spell". This implies that chronologically:- Elden Ring gets sent by GW through Elden Beast -> birth of the Crucible and ALL life. Of course most people will deny it cause of their in-born hatred of the Greater Will, but I think that is actually the case. The wording of those spells just seem to imply the chronology I told.
I think the ways of old are far more justified then the new ones. Although seemimgly barbaric there seemed to be some form of balance. I really dislike the Greater Will and the Golden order and I'm not sure why, maybe I still believe that a One Great actually exists and sadly no longer holds influence on the lands. I think it all falls down on the way mankind presents itself. Sure we evolve but we destroy, far more then we create upsetting the natural order of things. We hear of all those ancient beings that fell inevitably due to the conquest man inflicts on all, its not so strange we humans far outnumber the presence of beasts, giants, dragons, albastar lords, namor*, ect. That's because our presence is undeniable and we are imperfect creations easily influenced. If their was a creator god, it's quite possible this flaw in humanity is the very thing destroying these worlds. I think its our job as players to rise above the darkness, and quite simply find a way to lead humanity out of this dark fate. Perhaps one day through this process humanity eventually freed itself from divine influence of the forces that govern the world. Tolkien made a story that was incomplete that made it seem as if middle earth and the time of the Numenorians was just a forgotten age like Atlantis.
Cheers again geoff! Always keen to hear your unique and thoughtgul insights. Your channel doesnt get the support it really deserves, but all of us really appreciate it!
@@SmoughTown Not to overstate this, but we are so grateful for your content. Your videos have really helped me manage the stress of a masters degree. Im sure im not the only person you've helped through difficult patches!
Wasn't really sure which video to comment this on: Do you think that Elden Ring is essentially a story about grief, and the inability of so many to properly grieve? If you think about it, so many of the tragic actions taken that lead to disaster involve trying to prevent or halt grief. Marika's removal of the rune of death. Miquella's quest to save Millenia. Millenia's surrender to the scarlet rot to avoid losing to Radan. Markia's shattering of the ring in response to losing her favored son. The Three Finger's need for unity. Fia's support of those who live in death. Even down to lowly Godrick and his desire to stave off the end of his line. Golden Mask's need to perfect/preserve the Golden Order. It goes on. Contrast to Ranni who gives up her physical form, and passes from all that is comfortable and known into the age of stars, facing fear, the unknown, and uncertainty. (IE coming out the other side of grief to a life beyond it)
I don't think the greater will is different from the other outer gods for a few reasons : First of all, hyetta says "all there is came from the one great" and "what was borrowed must be returned". The word borrowed means that life does not come from the greater will but rather from the one great, the greater will is just the one using the one great's creation. Either it was the first outer god to be interested in that creation, or the strongest outer god who gained control trough fight, or maybe it was the one who asked the one great to make it. To compare to tolkien's work, I think the one great is akin to illuvithar while the greater will is more like Manwe, one of the valar (// outer god), second in strength only to melkor and the one who rule the other valar and the world created by illuvithar. Secondly, the outer god of frenzy seem to be and outer god who's disapointed in the greater will's rule and want it to return the creation to nothingness, to the one great who made it. The use of the three fingers is to mirror and show it's opposition to the greater will's ideals. The outer god of frenzy does not want to take over the land between for himself like the other outer gods, but to return them to their creator. This is speculation of course but I think it make sense that the outer gods can have varying motivations, like how the outer god of the twinbirds seem only interested in the death rites, not really motivated to fully rule the land between. Thirdly, the greater will does corrupt the land like the god of rot or the formless mother. The effect of the greater will its to turn things golden, we can see it all over the altus plateau. We even have comparaison with in game items with the blood-tinged excrement from moghwyn palace and the gold-tinged excrement from altus. There is also gold on certain body parts of the ancient dragons and of course the whole erdtree covered in gold. Lastly, as pointed out in the video, the greater will and the other outer gods have similar way of doing things : they have envoys to carry their will, as they cannot commune directly with the land between's inhabitant (two finger, twinbird, three finger), they have a god, probably to serve as a host for their power (marika, malenia, miquella) and a lord, to rule the land between (radagon, mogh, us as lord of frenzy). However, as the greater will is the current ruler, he has the most servants in place while the other outer gods are still trying to set up their rule. You could argue that the formless mother does not have envoys and commune directly with its lord, but so did the greater will back in the era of the dragon lords i believe : the posture of placidusax is similar to the one of the two fingers when communicating with the greater will, this must be the way the greater will contact earthly beings, while the formless mother's way is using blood. I think the reason why the greater will seem to be getting a different treatment from the others outer gods is just because its the one who controls the lands between, thats why he is regarded as the one true god by the land between's inhabitant while the other outer gods are seen as invador trying to take the greater will's place.
@@SmoughTown I too believe that the Greater will did not create life because of what Hyetta says. If first all life was melded together as the One Great then the Greater Will did not always exist on it's own, although it could have always existed.. as all life has, just as one. I believe the Greater Will could have been a sort of consciousness. Perhaps it was the first thing that had thought of anything at all other than basic needs, like consuming things to live such as eating and breathing. Perhaps the Greater Will began cataloguing all which encompasses the One Great and how the life within it, differed from itself and realizing that self, shattered the One Great into what the Greater Will had catalogued. That which consumes (chaotic flame) the effect of consumption (wounds and blood) what happens when consuption occurs (death of what is consumed) and what becomes of the dead (recycled energy within the system of the One Great) and finally the individuality of those forces seperate from one another in how they function and this would be Order. My thoughts are not as refined as most but perhaps you may understand!
Considering the options, lord over the undead, omens, Frankenstein experiments (and their masters), warmongers, or literal ashes. It's becoming clear that the best ending is Perfect Order. Choosing this path you ultimately serve the One Great, the maker of life itself. The reasoning is: 1)the Greater Will betrays you when the guidance of grace serves Hora Loux/Elden Beast fighting you. So when we got betrayed who else would be reviving us, other than the the one Great, to take down the elden beast? If it's another outer God doing the reviving, then who else has access to site of grace that logically/thematically makes sense? 2) As Hyetta stated, the origin of existence came from the One Great and the one at fault is the Greater Will for bringing in fractures(I suspect it to be unguided individual will) into the world thus leading to "every sin and curse" 3)The Goldmask mirrors(thus serving) the One Great perfectly in terms of being silently mysterious, lack of attention to anyone other than esoteric prophets like Corryn, and hilariously the behavior of a tree, the very thing that has brought, sustained, reincarnates/resurrects life(regardless if it's crucible or erdtree) In conclusion the One Great is existence. Thus those within the Perfect Order will protect all who desire to exist. Nothing more noble as a tarnished to rise and become an honorable lord.
Finally got round to watching. Impressive as always! And thanks a lot for the shout out to the channel and the Nameless Things video 👍. I've only played about 100 hours of Elden Ring so far (been annoyingly busy) but I've only started scratching the surface. And for what it's worth, the Greater Will always reminds me of Demon's Souls!
I disagree with your idea of the Greater Will not being an Outer God simply because it interacts with The Lands Between the exact same way as they others have, through a chosen vessel/beast (Elden Beast/Mohg/Scorpion of Rot) as they cannot physical exist there Edit: Also I would like you to look at the Onyx Lord’s Greatsword and the Alabaster Lord’s Sword item description and see what your thoughts are on the lore implications they provide This is my stance before watching the video I will come back and give my stance then after the evidence you provide
Fair play dude, I also concede at the end it could still be an outer god, but one that has a greater connection to the lands between and the language in JP suggests Outer Gods are 'external' to this world, where as the greater will is intrinsically lied. Either way I hope you still enjoy and let me know your thoughts!
@@SmoughTown I think there is also an interesting detail about the biblical god, which is that its significance and.. uniqueness has changed during history. Originally many of the texts that would become parts of the old testament talked about other gods on top of the biblical one, many of which would later be demoted to angels or removed from the texts entirely. I dont know if this might have been used as an idea but i could see how the beliefs of the world would sort of twist the nature of the greater will, or alternatively that the greater will physically became different from the other, outer, gods. I do disagree with you on the bit that outer gods don't create anything, because to me its unclear if the greater will actually created all life. we know it made intelligent life, but unsure about the others. However, we can speculate a detail that is implied about the erdtree, which is that in the lands between, humans are born from the erdtree, while demihumans are born of mothers. We can also see a mirror of this with the scarlet rot, where the buds around the aeonia birth children. I know its not exactly confirmed but the amount of references to millicent and her sisters being buds and the flowerbuds around the aeonia seem pretty strong.
@@SmoughTown Very good video enjoyed it thoroughly, very informative I definitely agree with what you say the Greater Will represents it being a “Creator God” similar to Christianity’s God but I believe that’s what all the Outer Gods are. The Greater Will is simply the Sculptor of the Clay(Life) right now and in order for the Outer Gods to use the “Clay” they must reduce it what it was originally to “Start Again” hence why they “corrupt and rebirth life from death” because the way the life is “Molded” right now is in an unusable state for their view of life I don’t know if you seen it when I edited my original comment but the Onyx Lords Greatsword and the Alabaster Lords Greatsword item descriptions describe the same event but with 2 distinct differences One Meteor was Golden (Elden Beast) And the other was a Blue-White. Now I’m not sure whos Outer God it could belong to but my guess it has something to do with Astel or a being like Astel This could indicate two things for me 1)the Elden Beast is a “Star” the same as Astel or 2) Another Vassal Beast (the Twinbird?) came to the lands between the same way Elden Beast has and created life “In it’s own image” giving another layer to the Life, Death and Rebirth symbolism in the game Or it could be both Either way I would like your view on why the Onyx and Alabaster swords descriptions describe the same event but for two different entities
I'm interpreting it as there were several unrelated, unknowable, cosmic beings in the universe. One, which became know as The Greater Will created this world and everything in it. It therefore is a true god, the Iluvatar comparison fitting quite nicely. What makes those other cosmic beings "outer" gods is simply the fact that they are outside of the sphere of influence of The Greater Will. Perhaps on the same power level, perhaps not. Probably incomprehensible to a mortal anyhow. I really like how Smough theorizes they are mimicking the order of The Greater Will to influence it's peoples. Easy to imagine an entire world to cultivate and control would be an enviable prospect to another cosmic entity who couldn't create one of their own. So they try an usurp it by moving pieces on the cosmic chessboard so to speak.
@@MoeBalingerIllustration my head canon is basically the same but instead of it creating life on Lands Between and/or Elden Ring it usurped it from a previous “Outer God” My belief is the Lands Between/Elden Ring is the Crucible/One Great and that’s why so many Outer Gods are fighting for power and dominion there because whoever does, governs the universal laws of the Lands Between and everything outside of it
The Crucible became the Erdtree. This we know. The Crucible is where all life began, that we know. What we also know, is that The Erdtree came into existence with the arrival of The Elden Star. Notice how not once is The Greater Will credited with the direct creation of anything but the symbols of it's power and control (The Elden Ring, The Golden Order, The Erdtree, The godhood of Marika, the Grace of Gold). And as for the life of the Crucible, there are two types of people still directly connected to it (or believed to be): The Misbegotten, and The Omen; and they are both spurned from grace. The pattern The Greater Will follows is one of conquest rather than creation- those who surrender or are willing to serve are safe, those who are not, are wiped out, banished, or enslaved. It's a conqueror. And that's what I think is the Crucible connection- essentially, The Greater Will used The Crucible, through The Elden Star, to grow The Erdtree in order to claim control of The Lands Between. Something all Outer Gods seem to want to do in some way. What's why The Omen are beloved to be cursed by the Crucible- they are born in a shape that predates The Greater Will's influence, and are thus lacking the guidance of Grace. So they are seen as condemned -when in reality, it's more like they are immune to it's control, since we know The Greater Will uses the guidance of grace to push people to serve it. I would also argue that yes, Placidusax and the ancient dragons may have worshipped The Greater Will, but this does not suggest The Greater Will made them. Marika's hair seems to be gold. Not "golden", but actual gold. And we have no evidence The Greater Will directly made her- so it's more likely that gold is a manifestation of becoming vessels to The Greater Will, in the same way regular people living in grace are supposed to have golden eyes. This would not mean The Greater Will is the creator god, as much as that this is not the first time it became the ruling Outer God.
I believe that the greater will and the outer God of the frenzied Flame are offshoots of the great one. When the great one made the universe they realized that it was flawed, however they could not decide on how to deal with the flawed universe. I believe that the great one split its choices into two separate entities, the greater will who would fix the universe by bringing order to it and the frenzied Flame who would erase the mistake in its entirety.
None of us can definitively say the greater will isn't an outer god....after all if it "sent the elden beast and elden ring down to the mortal plane" it sure sounds like it resides outside of this world. Perhaps it is just the outer God who has been winning the battle for this world?
Here's a take on it maybe more in line with previous Souls universes: * Greater Will = First Flame, Old One from Demon's Souls * Golden Order = Age of Fire * Chaos, Dark Moon(s), Death God, Rot, Formless Mother, etc = alternative systems/Ages (Age of Man, Ancients, Deep, Paintings etc) It's easy to conflate Greater Will and Golden Order but they might not have to be identical. GO could just be the currently dominant system/set of logic/"Age" and therefore they claim to be closest or most in line with GW. Like Gwyn's Age of Fire outlasting all the other systems of the DS world, which would naturally be a cyclic progression. Elden Lord = the position of whoever decides which logic/Outer God dominates the world currently. Marika chose GO, before her Placidusax maybe chose some other OG. And we the player also decide as Elden Lord what the next Age will be (although it's just between GO, Chaos, Death, Defilement and Darkmoon/Stars)
Oh thank goodness. Since the very first time I heard the greater will mentioned, I took it to be the spontaneous and chaotic happenings of the universe, interpreted as wilful by the conscious agents that have will
I think the reason the greater will is not considered a outer for simply because they are the one in power. They saw a opportunity of creating a power and took it before the other outer gods and therefore became " the God" of the lands between and has created it in such a way that it is nearly impossible for the outer gods to become what I call a "inter god" (a outer god that is in power and has the position to enact their will).
So while I love this whole interpretation, there is something I think is worth consideration: scarlet rot did seemingly create life. Its form is definitely inspired by other life already in the world, so it still kinda required a preexisting force of life, but the methodology is very similar to the way that Molag Bal and other deadric princes in the elder scrolls create new forms for the daedra, such as the dragon based ones in eso. Once one was corrupted, that form was essentially in the database for daedric essence to take.
I think I could argue that rot doesn’t “create” in the same way the greater will could/does. The greater will creates from nothing (no previous life created) meanwhile the rot can only create with the ashes, or goop in this case, of former life. More like the flood in halo than anything else.
Some further food for thought. In the book of Job, the Behemoth is called the Chief of God's creation. Behemoth is described as being massive, with a large belly and a tail, and live in and/or near water. Many Theologists believe that this refers to a large dinosaur, like an Apatasaur or Brachiosaur. Now look at the Elden Beast, the Vassal to lead the Lands Between. It looks like an enormous long-necked dinosaur, has a big belly and a tail, and moves in water.
This is probably the most interesting look at the Greater Will I’ve seen from the community so far! I definitely agree with many aspects of this analysis, but strongly disagree with others, I think I should explain my interpretation and where it differs in full. The main area where I disagree is in your stance that the statement “the Greater Will is the highest creator deity of the setting, above all the other divine entities” mutually exclusive with the statement “the Greater Will is an Outer God”. In my view, the Greater Will can be a higher degree of Outer God, or more intrinsic to creation than other Outer Gods, while still being the same kind of being as the others. It is a uniquely powerful Outer God, the first of its kind and the most important, but still an Outer God. I believe its need for intermediaries and its as an intangible or incorporeal higher being or force that embodies a concept (in its case Order) just scream Outer God to me. That doesn’t mean it can’t be an analogue for the monotheistic Abrahamic God like your video goes over, just that this term may apply to it as well within the fictional universe. I don’t buy the theory that “Outer God” refers to a god which is outside the Order, primarily because other deities which are DEFINITELY outside the Order like the Fell God are not referred to as Outer Gods. I think the term “Outer God” refers instead to a higher divine being that is the manifestation or personification of a concept, and don’t think they’re necessarily extrinsic to the world at all. You are correct that the Greater Will is intrinsic to the creation of the world, but so is the very-definitely-an-Outer-God Frenzied Flame, which I’ll get to in a bit. What you interpret as the other Outer Gods imitating the Greater Will Melkor-style, I interpret as indications that the Greater Will is the same type of being as them and has to operate similarly to them. These are both reasonable ways to interpret this part of the lore, but there is a reason I disagree with your interpretation. While I love all the Tolkien analogies, I don’t think they’re quite applicable to the situation being discussed here. While the greater will is responsible for creation, it too engages in corruption (of sorts, I don’t think it’s malevolent). You brought up Sin and Sophie’s analysis in the video so I’ll draw on them here as well - we can see the Greater Will’s proxies changing or terraforming the world the same way the Formless Mother and God of Rot do. All of the vegetation and foliage in Altus Plateau has become a gold color, a color which seems highly unnatural, and the sky itself is golden. This to me seems no different from what these other Outer Gods are doing, though in the Greater Will’s case, its influence seems far more benign than the horrific mutations inflicted by the other Outer Gods. Its nature as the creator of life may be related to this, as life may be more welcoming to its influence than it is to these other deities’ influences. Similarly, I don’t think the parallels between the Frenzied Flame and Greater Will are meant as mockery. The main reason to think both Fingers were part of one hand, to me at least, is that the Greater Will’s origin lies in fracturing the One Great. It seems like the Greater Will is the first thing that split itself off from the One Great, then splintered it to create life and individual existence, then whatever was left of that original primordial chaos became the Frenzied Flame. If not for that creation myth, I might agree with you, but the way the creation story is described implies to me that they were once part of the same being. This is also, as I said, a big part of why I don’t believe Outer God = extrinsic to reality, because the Frenzied Flame is a being deeply linked to the creation of the universe (or at least of life). Overall I’d actually say the question of whether the Greater Will is an Outer God or not is ultimately semantic. What matters more is that it’s a being deeply intrinsic to the creation of the universe and existence of life, not some sort of malevolent alien invader like a lot of people seem to believe it is. I think the problem here is people trying to apply the framework of the story of the Dark games, where all the holy/divine stuff was a stagnant power structure that was literally killing the world to try and preserve itself, despite that narrative not really being present in ER. People have a lot of bizarre ideas about the Greater Will in general - I've had people yell at me for claiming it created life (even though that's directly told to us), and then the same people turn around and insist that the Greater Will beams commands into Marika's head like a robot (making it responsible for all of her misdeeds, or even the misdeeds of human society as a whole like the persecution of Omens). People have formed conceptions of what the Greater Will is and does based on literally nothing rather than interpreting what’s in the game.
I subscribed to your channel because of Blasphemous lore videos ages ago and I’m so pleased to see how your channel grew in scope and quality. Your videos on Elden Ring lore are very thorough and well made and you always give credit when due. Keep doing this awesome job!
Yet another banger video! I’m taking plenty of notes so that I’m ready for the final exam. In all seriousness I’m both impressed and intimidated by the lore community. On one hand it makes me wanna try making lore videos of my own, but on the other hand I doubt I’ll ever reach the supreme quality like I see here. Incredible work as always, Smough! Can’t wait for the next one!
Very sweet topic, reminiscent of Greek mythos and the hierarchy of Gods, the difference between Heracles and the Titans. Also axolotl is spelled with "L"s :) a neat fish with legs!
My favorite part about your lore videos is not only do you make amazing videos but you’re the only elden ring lore TH-camr that interacts with the wider community. Without fail every video of yours recommends me new TH-camrs who I end up Ioveing. Without you I would never have found the last protagonist, Tarnished Archelogist, or red book.
Awesome video. The connection with the dragons to the GW is really cool. Btw, I believe in the game files the Elden Beast is referred to as the "NebulaDragon." If that's true then that provides even more evidence of your point that the Dragons were made in the GW's image.
Linking the god-skin nobles to ball shaving is some real good advertising. I can't not see them in a different light anymore and I'm not scared anymore. Great stuff!
It's so simple! The Two Fingers guide standard Tarnished while the Three Fingers accepts those who use their middle fingers for the shoulder buttons and save their index fingers for the face buttons (the thumbs are reserved for joysticks of course). Whenever I have to use a consumable I certainly feel the Frenzy growing within me.
The idea that the Outer Gods come from a real beyond ours and all that also work REALLY WELL with H.P. Lovecraft lore which the guys at From Soft REALLY like to take inspiration from (seriously the amount of reference to Lovecraft’s stories in Bloodborne is insane). And example is the Formless mother: it’s pretty obvious they took inspiration from Shub-Niggurath.
WOOOO!!! More incredible lore for me to listen to at work! Your videos really help the days go by faster. Love your content man. Yours is a channel I frequently come back to in order to watch videos again.
Damn only a few minutes in and im a little more than compelled. I cannot wait to get further. Im gunna give a full update of what i think. I tend to forget to do that Bro: 25:19 when you call the frenzy flame a posturing god. It makes so much sense, “come here lemme hug ya and show you the way” type feeling 30:00 BOY YOU ARE SAUCING HERE What i really love of the creation power of the greater will, it seems it created a little too well lol made every thing very powerful
Spoilers for persona 3, discussion of the inherent horrors of the human biological condition. I like the physical/tactile nature of elden ring's cosmology a lot. The scarlet rot is slimy and pokey, and crumbly and crunchy, it's pools of blood and sprouting fungi and bugs. The stars are stones, minerals. The Frenzied flame is pain, the aching of agony in all it's forms, and the completely understandable desire to be freed of that pain in the worst way possible. And the greater will is radio static! Like the cosmic aftershocks of the big bang. The two fingers are much like the antennae of radio receptors and old televisions, and Iji wears a reflective helmet to bounce off the influence of the greater will, like a faraday cage. And there's also a connection between the more destructive outer gods and disease/parasitism/pregnancy. Similar to another game, persona 3, where the protagonist's mind/soul is basically pregnant with the god of death, who will eventually consume all life/the world; the player character of elden ring, as well as Millicent, and Malenia become carriers of respectively, the frenzied flame and scarlet rot, which eventually consumes their previous forms and bursts forth into the world, changing them permanently. (Similarly, Marika and Radagon have part of their abdomen replaced with the elden ring.) And this allegory is lended credence by Miquella's needle, which resembles an IUD* in both form and function. And then we have the formless mother, who manifests power and comfort for mohg, via her own injury, much like a mother accepting risks to her own health in order to give birth to her child, and parents more generally accepting risk and injury in order to keep their children safe and healthy. Which is contrasted with Marika, who cast Mohg aside, and essentially encouraged her children to go to war with one another without saying it directly. Basically an anti-mother. And Radagon, who abandoned his loving wife Rennala and possibly their children, to be with Marika at her command, basically an anti-father. The world of elden ring makes sense in a very visceral way, it's like: People like Rya and Boggart and Marika and so on, I've met them or heard of them. *[a surgically implanted device which can cause serious harm, which is able to prevent pregnancies from forming, but which is less effective/safe than using, say, a condom, or having other types of surgery, due to the risks involved if pregnancy occurs regardless, which can happen. for this metaphor it is mostly important to note that implanting miquella's needle causes you injury, much like a surgury does, to help keep you from "giving birth" to an outer god and destroying your life as you know it, similar to (but distinct from) how pregnancy and childrearing can upset the trajectory of ones' life quite dramatically]
Seriously great work dude. I listened to this video, audio only yesterday while I ran errands, then last night I was flipping through my TH-cam feed, I popped it on again to get the b-roll and full experience. Never did that before with such a hefty lore vid. 👏 👏
Before watching the video. I think the Greater Will is moreso something that allows its vessel to rule by of which order they deserve, evident by Miquella and Malenia's curse. I dont think the GW truly cares of which curse is shape or form they are, it only cares about how its creation can interact and how they rule. I also dont think the GW never forseen the shattering. I think he foresaw it since it IS Marika's order of which the GW gave her the rule. Edit: I quite agree with a lot of things, however, I disagree with the Gteater Will being an internal one. I do think it is an outer ome evident by the many Erdtrees we find when fighting the Elden Beast. As you said, it towers above all these outer deities, but it makes sense not it would be an internal one. I think not. I think it is a powerful outer one but in a different power level higher than the outer ones. As always, great videos!
Malenia and Miquella are cursed because they were born, nothing to do with what they deserve. Marika and Radagon have separate minds but the same body. Same body, same DNA. Both the Fextralife and Wiki state that Miquella's infantile body and Malenia's Rot are in fact because they were born from a single god. Meaning they're literally asexual inbreds. Maybe for whatever reason, two of the most reputable sources for unbiased game lore are lying. Because this fact would basically debunk almost everything we know about Scarlet Rot, but most importantly is the fact that it implies that there is no Outer God of Rot like both websites and a ton of stuff in game says there is, or that if there is an Outer God of Rot that means that since Malenia is the child of Marika/Radagon, who is the vessel of the Elden Beast/Elden Ring, who itself is the host of the Greater Will, that would mean the Greater Will can straight up create other Outer Gods.
See I think that the argument to be made for the Greater Will being an outer god-like being is as follows: The Lands Between is one of many lands. There are the badlands, the land of reeds, Fia's homeland, etc. From what we know, these are governed by different rules or God's, such as the land of reeds having a blood madness (either from the blood star, formless mother, Frenzied Flame, or something else entirely). We also know from the Confessor set that the Golden Order has envoys outside of the Lands Between, outside of the main land of Erd Tree & Marika worship. So basically, what I'm picturing is each Outer God having their territory, which they squabble over, reshaping life in its own way (rot, frenzy, corrupt, etc). Maybe the Greater Will converged the old life into the One Great before creating life of its own (Regression and Causality)?
I am surprised that no one has considered that all the known outer gods, Greater Will and Frenzied Flame included might just be a singular being manipulating mortals for it's own amusement, that or they are all just fragments of the fractured One Great.
I think the "one great" is something similar to DS1's world before the First Flame, a world with no disparity, where everything was "uniformed", grey, unchanging, and the "mistake" Hyetta talks about isn't necessarily a mistake, but it might be what the Frenzied Flame outer god sees it as: The GW creating life and the world as we know it, replacing the one with no disparity that was before, was seen as a "mistake" by the FF outer god, who preferred that previous world to the GW's one.
I think the two and three fingers juxtaposition is supposed to invoke a whole hand undeniably, but not to suggest that they were literally physically joined at one point. Rather I think it's just to illustrate the artificiality of the Golden Order. That parts of the greater whole have been figuratively cut off and pruned, discarding the chaotic and unsavory elements of the greater whole.
27:34 What I don't understand is why if the Greater Will created the life in the Lands Between did it wait so long before making its presence felt? We know entire ages passed before it tried to enact it's order from the tree before the Erdtree, the age of Dragons, the age of the Giants etc. Why would it create life that it then opposed? So idk if I agree that the Greater Will created ALL life, maybe just some of it.
As always your videos make my morning routine, having to watch them over 3 days only makes me feel like I have more Smoughtown content to watch! The close connection of dragons with the greater will, made me think that if on that age fingers didn't exist, and given the position of placidusax, being fairly reminiscent of the upright "communing" position of the two fingers, thinking that dragons directly communed with the Greater Will feels like it makes perfect sense.
How do we know the Greater Will isn't influencing/preventing other unknown outer god arrivals in the lands between? Also why would the GW allow other beings to enter it's domain w/o obstruction? Is the GW the alchemist in all this?
This is my second comment, but after relistenting. Im not sure the Greater Will created anything. Hyetta says the One Great fractures, and from it came souls and births. That doesn't say the greater will did it. She then immediately goes on to say, "But the greater will made a mistake," The wording and the name GREATER Will makes it sound like it came or was born from the fracture and that like a shards from a broken glass it used that fracture to create its own lives. The name GREATER Will also sounds like it was the largest of the fragments from the One Great that has established control and order.
The greater will is only a "one true god" figure to its believers, and the lore is written from that perspective. It might even come from Marika's tablets in her bedchamber. It's very common for stories to borrow pieces of religion/mythology to add texture or touchstones for the audience to connect with the theming. That doesn't mean the story is literally true to that piece of literature. Elden Ring also borrows heavily from norse and greek myths, but the story isn't literally about ragnarok or zeus. The GW is not inherently doing anything more special than the other gods by ordering matter/energy into life as we see it in the mortal realm. The deathbird god seems to hold sway over the afterlife, while the frenzied flame is quite alike the chaotic origins of our universe and the big bang, or in the churning of stars that create all of the elements. The lands between could be said to exist between these two realms of that universe, and the mortal realm could be said to exist as an tiny blip on the cosmic scale. Completing this picture, rot embodies an alien iteration of life. We may deem it less meaningful from our human-centric perspective, but the meaning we hold in our minds does not translate to a universe that is largely beyond our control. My interpretation of the greater will is in the name. It is the collective embodiment of the ideas and wills of sentient life in the realm. This god does not create life per se, but rather is intrinsic to intelligent life specifically. This makes sense given the more bestial origins and the hints at evolutionary advancement with five-fingered hands "granted by the greater will" and how the power of this intelligence is written in runes (literature). I find it interesting that the elden beast is depicted as golden neurons while the rest of its body is almost incorporeal starry void. The ceiling of its arena is also a starry night with erdtree pillars extending upwards towards it. It's almost like this god once seen behind the curtain is drawing its power from the primeval current, just like everything else ultimately does.
Interesting take. While I’m not against the idea of the Greater Will being something greater or different than the Outer Gods, I can’t currently agree, or at least can’t agree that the Greater Will was always superior or different. Rather, I believe if it did in fact become greater than the Outer Gods it only did so by taking part in the creation of life. I believe the Greater Will was the first to get its hand on the Lands Between, via its Vassal which became the Elden Ring. In this case, the Greater Will’s potency comes from it having acted first, taking dominion over a process any Outer God could have started. It might not have as explicit medium of influence because it became internal to life, all life traces back to its division - the Greater Will’s influence. Even so, I’d argue you can see its influence spread through gold. The closer you get to the Erdtree, the more gold the plant life gets, becoming metallic near the Elden Throne. The Altus Plateau, while not as wildly deformed as Caelid or Mohg’s swamp, shows evidence of a physical influence. You also mention how the orders of the Outer Gods mimic the Greater Will’s, having lords and gods, etc. However, I’d argue that it might show peers rather than a definitive imitation or perversion. Perhaps the order of gods and lords are intrinsic to Outer Gods. The Outer Gods each lack pieces of this order, (i.e the Rot God has no Lord, the Formless Mother has no known Vassal, the Death Bird’s god has only a Vassal) because they are unable to fully contend with the Greater Will in its own domain (how far the Greater Will has abandoned us is debatable if it has at all, and so the Lands between may still be protected somewhat). The Outer Gods therefore take meek forms, having incomplete orders without the necessary rulers. The Outer Gods also manifest influences uniquely positioned to affect the Erdtree (or any tree): Bloodflame, Frenzied Flame, Death Flame, the only one to not have a ‘flame’, is sealed, possibly before the Erdtree full dominance. Rather than attaching themselves to the Erdtree’s order, the Outer Gods seem more likely to burn it down, the Chaos Flame going so far as to melt all life back into one, undoing much of the Greater Will’s work. I believe the Greater Will created life, the Beastmen and Ancient Dragons and all else that follows, but I believe the Ancient Dragons being overturned shows that the Greater Will was threatened. It was not without competition, at risk of being cast out from the world it had created. The age of the Erdtree sees the rollout of a new order, and sees the taming of many threats, the Fire Giants included. It assumed a more ironclad (or goldclad) control, perhaps because it knew it was not so absolute, that other gods could become internal to life in the Lands Between. Regardless, great video. Glad to see reevaluations of ideas we take as definitively true even though they are not explicit.
Thanks for the thoughtful comment Elijah! It 100% is just a theory/speculation on my part - I think most of all the part of the theory I am most 'keen on' is the fact the Outer Gods are 'outer' because they are external to this world, where as the GW is more closely tied to this plane of existence.
@@SmoughTown I share more or less the same sentiments after this video. With your previous video talking about the Ancient Dragons, I wonder if Placidusax wasn’t sort of the precursor to the Two fingers, being able to commune with the Greater Will himself. Many have pointed out the pose he’s found in bears a resemblance to the Two Finger’s in communion. While I’d agree with you that the fled god in his description is likely more akin to someone in Marika’s position than an Outer God, I also wouldn’t be surprised if Placidusax is in communion when we find him. That the Dragonlord, having been beaten and dethroned, attempts to commune with the Greater Will in hopes of having its favour once more. The Two Fingers would play the role that Placidusax was once able to play himself to the Erdtree’s dynasty, humans not being able to directly receive the Greater Will’s words as Placidusax may have been able to. Basically, a division of the role of Elden Lord and Herald of the Greater Will’s words.
@@SmoughTownit takes forever for the envoy two fingers to get communication from the GW tho, by the words Enia used to inform us, it suggests that the GW is far away from the lands between.
The idea that the greater will doesn’t really care what form order takes does make sense. I’ve always wondered why the 2 fingers, those who bear the message of the Greater Will suddenly became silent at the most crucial moment. Ik Enja said the 2 fingers are convening with the Greater Will and that will take thousands of years, but why now out of all time? Right when we’ve reached the foot of the erd tree, about to seek audience with the Elden Ring, does it decide to go silent? Makes me believe the Greater Will saw this, and decided that rather it enacts its will telling us what to do at that moment, it wanted us to decide for ourselves what form order should take.
Been a fan of SmoughTown since I got into Elden ring. Put off this very video for a good while, so I could listen at a good time. I’ve been a Tolkien fan for a long while. The Tolkien references make me which I could like and subscribe twice. Good work
Goddamn these Elden Ring lore videos really have been so entertaining and enlightening to watch, I wholeheartedly recommend to watch these in chronological order, lest thou miss out on the ever growing understanding of the lore and world from ER, that SmoughTown undoubtedly acquired, and trough him all that who we are watching. His takes evolved with every new highlighted aspect, region and clan, and even though these Videos are so immensely enjoyable as is, i feel like treating this as a lore series on Netflix really does equip you with a experience like no other. Through him and other great ER connoisseur's such as Hawkshaw and Crunchy, my mind feels like its ever expanding every time a new Aspect of the World like for e.g. the Parfumers are Highlighted and explained. What I'm trying to say is that everything in this game is so interwoven, that every time you get a good understanding for a new region or clan like Leyndell and the Carian's, the real story of the game gets revealed, i believe that we will only really understand ER once we have the whole picture. Also dig into Elden Ring Archeologist's and Queelag's stuff, they are SO undervalued but they make A+ content
@@SmoughTown Mad respect for all the Shoutouts you did in this video, really shows how much of a lore junk you are, i would know because i did also watch everything you mentioned xD anyways its great to see anyone talk about Sinclair Lore. And Doog Man Guy! Absolute Gem when it comes to the things the Game really definetly tryes to say. Also A+ youtuber work for Linking so many Videos
I feel like a lot of people have brought up the idea of The One Great and its connecting to being all of life and possibly the crucible, the "outer gods are just gods who lost" idea, and the "One great gives more prevalence to the 2 and 3 fingers making 5" idea, but another thing that I think makes sense for Two and Three fingers once being 5 is that it works well with the Law of Regressions and Causality idea. We see Regression a lot with it a lot in their being pairs like the many twins or most strongly with the two being one of Radagon and Marika, so I think from that it could point that the idea of 2 and 3 fingers having once been converged into 5 as having some more merit as then even the order's highest beings had once been faced with convergence into one. Also separate from above, a theory for why there can be multiple two fingers but one three fingers is that they're all just envoys. Now for some complete speculation: We know that fingers are capable of being killed, and as such then other three fingers may have been killed if not tucked away somewhere else. I doubt that the order would want to just leave them around. Also another complete wild theory is that there may have once been multiple three fingers, or at the very least two. We see from the Three fingers cutscene that when the three fingers burn they possibly burn into the person, or burn to nothingness as they hold you. Since we've seen Vyke have the same marks from his armor its possible that a second three fingers may have become part of him. There's also just the chance that these envoys are simply symbols for them. With the frenzied flame and greater will possibly being part of The One Great, it could simply be that since Greated WIll took 2 fingers as its symbol, there flame took 3 to still show they make a hand as they want to return them into being just as all one as they were during The One Great era. The first part I think is stronger from the themes, and the 2nd is more just some wild speculation but I at least thought it interesting enough to say.
Smough great vid as always. You and TA touched on an interesting idea in the "Life and Order" chapter. Are people born from the Erdtree? Personally, I believe not. There are quite a few familial ties in ER that may contradict this. The Carian demigods, Boc the Demi Human, the Brothers of House Hoslow. Most importantly, the existence of Omen and the Dung Eater. They're all born rather than created but their souls cannot return to the erdtree. By that logic, doesn't seem like the Erdtree is capable of "birthing" omen. Something else to consider is that at least in terms of actual plants, the Erdtree already births its own offspring in Golden Seeds and Minor Erdtrees
Thank you SO MUCH for pointing out the problem with the idea of the three and two fingers once being one. Ive been questioning it for so long because of just how many two fingers there are. Awesome video as always!
This is such an excellent breakdown of the evidence and lore, well done! However, I must say I disagree with the conclusion. Instead of the Greater Will as the Supreme, I believe the evidence simply points to it being the First, as in, the First to have a go at moulding the world in its image. I contest the idea that it has the power to create. If anything, it's just using the sand in a sandbox to build a castle. If another outer god had gotten there first, then it would have enacted its own designs. As far as the linguistic differences go, my personal interpretation is that they merely serve to distinguish the specific relationship between the mortal characters and the Greater Will. The Greater Will is the one in charge in this particular iteration of the world while the other gods are, by default, outsiders, which explains why they would be referred to with different phrasing.
Thanks so much Emily! And ultimately I do agree - that the Greater Will could be the 'same' as the outer gods but is not 'outer' because of its connection to the world
I feel as if the Outer Gods are referenced as such because they were apart of a polytheistic Pantheon worshipped prior to the Greater Will which is Mirrored in when Rome converted to Christianity.
I think the god connection to the greater will is there for the historical meta narrative. The greater will doesnt really make anything new, considering how they have the magic life smelting pot covered in their golden fungus. I'm pretty sure the only difference the greater will has to the outer gods is that they "won". Or maybe The One Great was a collective of outer gods that the greater will shattered by making a power grab in the lands between, forcing the other gods to try and catch up.
If you look at the dialogue from the various Frenzied Flame adjacent NPCs, your last sentence seems pretty likely. They blame the sin of suffering on The Greater Will. But Shabriri specifically blames it for "division and distinction." That's the crux of the issue. We know that the demi-gods of The Lands Between can be divided, or cracked. See, Millicent. She's an offshoot/sister/daughter of Malenia. A part of the elder god who has been divided apart. Now, division is fine. The new thing is basically identical, in whole or part, to it's greater part. But then comes distinction. When it becomes it's own, unique being complete with it's own desires and opinions. If you side with Millicent at the end of her questline, this is exactly what you see. She chooses to die Millicent rather than return to being part of Malenia. Given that The Greater Will is SPECIFICALLY blamed by Shabriri for the sin of division and distinction, it is very likely that The Greater Will is the FIRST DISTINCTION. A piece of the One Great that was either willfully divided or broken off, but which then became it's own entity and now seeks to both ensure it's own existence and to supplant it's creator as the supreme master of creation. In essence, what we see among the Outer Gods is a Shattering which mirrors the war in The Lands Between amongst the demigods. The broken, but now distinct pieces of what was once the One Great warring amongst themselves to become supreme (and in The Greater Will's case, I would argue to become a new kind of One Great at the end of things). Now, where things get really trippy is when you consider that Radagon is Marika. Same idea. Radagon was once a splinter from Marika, but then he became something new. Something very, very different from her. But he too seeks to replace his creator at the head of the natural order. It all rhymes. All of it. As an aside, I think the Frenzied Flame is basically the player avatar in this great game of Outer Gods for what used to be The One Great. It is the equivalent to Melina. An agent placed into the game to attempt to affect a specific outcome. So, essentially, Shabriri is the One Great's Melina. A guide, trying to bring about it's desired ending. Just as Melina seeks, seemingly on Marika's direction, to crush the dreams and hopes of Radagon and The Greater Will.
Get 20% OFF + Free Shipping @Manscaped with code SMOUGH at → mnscpd.com/SmoughTown #teammanscaped
Awesome upload!
@@amalgamation3679 Thank you dude!
Is the death birds the orignal inhabitants and what about the spirit ancestors underground? They could have been the orignal people in the lands and the greater will took over and used them just like the other outer gods. I could be wrong I stopped playing ER for a bit life got busy.
Do you think you could possibly dive into the Alabaster and onyx lords because I think it would be could cool to put their story together. They are so obscure and seem to have been around for centuries possibly even before the erdtree.
You think the two finger talisman made to mock the greater will, since we found a shabiri grape next to the chest? Not sure who made it but a grape seems to suggest something. Now I don't trust the frenzy flame that are next to other areas or things. Thank God for mohg and morgit for keeping that thing sealed deep below.
I had always assumed the Greater Will to be more of an “inner” god, which is to say an outer god that was treated differently because, well, it won. It gained control of the Lands Between, has its vassals in charge, and subsequently has by far the widest support base among its inhabitants. This is a really interesting take on the matter though, and I can totally see that being the intended nature of things. Great video!
100% Percent agree!
That’s my take as well. That also allows the Three Fingers to both be an Outer god and a former part of a unified 5 fingered hand. In being severed and exiled the 3 fingers move from “inner” to Outer god status with a desire to return to one.
@@ryanwhaley5041 this is definitely a reasonable conclusion to come to based on what we see in game
@@SmoughTown That's literally not what an "Outergod" is. Lovecraftian incomprehensible beings that can't be explained with our logic . This game afterall.. doesn't give us "insight".
I think They just used the title outergods as something that will remain unexplained .
Well said
Mad respect for the constant shout outs and links to other creators. So honorable and builds a stronger community. love your videos
Thanks dude, I believe credit where credit is due
Agreed, I like to check out other ppl as well. Unfortunately doogmanguy seems to not have his channel anymore before I was able to check it out
I'd argue that the Frenzied Flame could potentilly be a gnostic counterpart to the Greater Will not only because of the fingers & maidens parallel, but because it too posesses something that other Outer Gods do not: the capacity to enact complete destruction. Not corruption, not rebirth, not transformation, but utter anihilation: the opposite of creation.
"Melt it all away, with the yellow chaos flame."
There is also the philosophical implication of the Lord of Chaos ending, which asks the player the Shakesperean question "to Be or not to Be". Five fingers represent intelligence, as seen with the Beastmen, but the Two Fingers answer "to Be", whereas the Three Fingers clearly reply: "not to Be". There is a conscious choice, exerted trough sentience.
The parallels with the Greater Will are too big to ignore, especially when this deity has a goal that doesn't just happen to clash with the Greater Will's plans, but exisits in direct opposition to it. Unlike the others, who merely wish to take control of Life, the Frenzied flame seeks to undo it altogether, for "It is chaos, devouring life and thought unending".
There are also parallels on items such as the Frenzyflame Stone & Warming Stone, as well as unique game interactions like the fact that killing Hyetta fulfills the requisites for Varre's questline, meaning Hyetta is somehow a true Finger Maiden and not some impostor, despite being unrealted to the Two Fingers and the Greater Will.
I think you're really on to something by likening the frenzied flame to the gnostics. The radical denial of the material, complete anti-incarnation theology, this is what Shabriri (who is a demon possessing a corpse) preaches to the player, and it's what the gnostics believed. He leverages the absolute trauma of sacrificing Melina against us to convince us the world would be better off as a formless void.
Shabriri is also the name of a demon of blindness in Jewish mythology. After all, Shabriri grapes are eyes. This is also related to gnosticism's idea of a "blind god." It is indeed poor perception (sight) that would make you want to destroy existence rather than suffer temporarily.
@@OrchinX Just to follow up on the "Shabriri is also the name of a demon of blindness", doesn't Shabriri cover his eyes while he's talking to the player?
It would make sense if the outer gods can be seen as analogous to demons as the greater will is analogous to God, then the path of the Lord of frenzied flame is the path of Satan and the antichrist. Good catch on that.
Yellow Chaos Flame = golden chaos flame. Very similar colors. It could have been called the golden chaos flame even. Then it would be more obvious. No other outer gods/gods use yellow/gold like the greater will and the frenzy flame as far as I can remember.
@@HelloHelloHellobby all the better for shabriri to make a mockery of the greater will.
I'm Italian and when you pulled out a reference from Sabaku no Maiku you really caught me off guard! He's been a legend in the community for years, and has made some truly insightful lore run as well as blind runs of all From games, can't show him enough love, he's truly one of a kind! Once again from you Geoff, another fantastic video! You still manage to surprise me with your work ethic lol
I'm so gutted I only discovered his work recently, some incredible content for sure! Thank you so much Andrea, I just love this game and the community
Also, Lami_1 is Sabaku's translator, which true name is Mirko. I'm so happy to see so many Italian members getting known!
fellers momento
Ma ciao a tutti! :D
anche io broh
Last Protagonist is a far better scribe than Corhyn ever was, truly deserving of grace.
Honestly, such an asset to the community
@Crows Wit He doesn't actually murder Gold Mask, Gold Mask dies creating his mending rune regardless of whether Corhyn is present or not.
If you offer Corhyn the Tonic of Forgetfulness he will remain in the mountaintop of the giants whilst Gold Mask returns to Leyndell.
I didn't get any killer vibes from him. Yea maybe he went crazy but he wouldn't kill goldmask. The way i saw it, GM gave everything he could give to gestate the mending rune, and fell slain once he knew the rune was created
@Crows Wit Mmm that interpretative lore... Lore is like runes to me. By their power I get stronger and stronger
@Crows Wit to be fair, as another user said, Goldmask is still dead in the same position even if Corhyn is given the Tonic. To accumulate these two possible circumstances, it would imply Corhyn actually is not a killer. He just went mad at the end.
The most likely and prevailing theory in my head is that all of the gods we know of came from one original or "whole" being. The Greater Will just happened to be the main one after the split. It could also be possible that the Greater Will and Frenzied Flame were once whole and eventually split apart due to being so different, and that the rest of the gods either represent smaller fragments of that whole being after it was torn apart, or that they're completely different and external beings.
A veritable Shattering of its own with the Shardbearers in this case being remnants of esoteric concepts like death, rot, madness and so on.
the greater will and frenzied flame are divorced..
@@AthenaCreteThis is practically the lore of the Cosmere setting, with each of the Shards being a fragment of the greater whole of Adonalsium.
The 3 fingers are the missing half of the two fingers, resulting in the golden order only getting half of the greater wills message. The frenzied flame is the greater will attempting to basically reformat the lands between and start over because its too corrupted now.
Or at least that's my theory.
@@TheBonePirate The frenzied flame is attempting bring the two and three fingers back together to fully channel the greater will. Its a tool of the greater will.
Yet another great video.
I have some thoughts...
The idea that the Greater Will is not an Outer God changes the way we see Miquella.
Miquella's Needle is said to resist the influence of Outer Gods and always refers to the Frenzied Flame, it can only be used in the storm beyond time. Note that this item does not remove Grace, so does not sever us from the Greater Will. So Miquella is not trying to build technology to break away from the Greater Will (similar to Ranni) but, I believe, he is trying to restore the Order to a time before it is was afflicted by outer Gods in it's time of unalloyed gold.
Next is how the Greater Will used to be complete and represented by five fingers and unalloyed gold but is now missing three fingers, represented by two fingers and an alloyed gold.
The first and most prominent feature we literally see of the Elden Beast is it's five fingers, which is uses to grasp it's tool, Radagon / Sacred Relic Sword. This is reflected in the ancient dragons, the and beast men and humans. As pointed out in the video, the greater will could have created the dragons in it's own image. Placi used to have his five heads, is missing three and now only has two.
If the greater will used five fingers then, why are its envoys now two fingers not five.
The ancient dragons ruled in a time of (more)perfect order of unalloyed gold that has since degraded. The modern dragons do not have these fiver fingers, do not have gold flesh, can not wield the tool of lightning and can not transform into humans, a state used by ancient dragons for socialisation and diplomacy (intelligence). It seems they have lost their connection to the greater will and thus lost their five fingers.
Another loose connection for me, is that I believe the GEQ was a God before Marika (long story) and is said be chosen by her own 'fingers' not two fingers.
Another unrelated thought. There is a recurring symbolism of eight orbs surrounding one. For Example, in the giants eye, the imbedded meteorites on top of divine towers, on astrolabes and many other minor places. I have a hunch that these orbs represent planets around a central sun, the stellar bodies are being studied via the astrolabes by ancient astrologers. Like in Roman and Greek religion the planets represent gods, in Elden Ring these could be the outer gods. Outer since they are not the central point (We may have more Outer Gods to discover in DLC). The central point is the sun / Greater Will. In the game, the symbolism of the sun is noticeably absent, the Greater Will and Erdtree take on the role of the sun symbolically.
These are all excellent thoughts, and well articulated. Thanks for sharing them!
There are actually two mentions of Sun in the lore. One is at Castle Sol and how the spirit after the boss talks about how the Sun is yet to be swallowed. And the other is on the Skeleton Knight enemies shields that talks about a Sun City.
I've posted this before, but the original comment lacked some info.
The DLC confirms this. The Greater Will is, no more no less, than the prime mover or first cause of the Elden Ring universe, having been the one who caused the series equivalent of the big bang. As Count Ymir puts it:
"I am a glintstone sorcerer. We study the stars, and examine the life therein. Are you familiar with our findings? Long ago, we began as stardust, born of a great rupture far across the skies. We, too, are children of the Greater Will. Is that not divine? Is that not sublime? ...and yet, none can fathom its implications, its utter brilliance! "
Or, if you want a less ambiguous version, a rough translation of Ymir's Japanese text instead says:
"I am a gemstone magician. I explore the stars and their life. Do you know? We are all stardust, born from a distant explosion. We are also children of the Great Will. How poetic. How wonderful. But sadly, no one understands this."
Adding to the above, the description of Ymir's hat mentions "the Greater Will and its lightless abyss". The word the Japanese text uses for "abyss" in this sentence is 深淵 (shin'en), which is the Japanese term for the biblical primordial waters from which the ordered world is created.
In contrast, the term for abyss in reference to places such as the Abyssal Woods is 奈落 (nakaru), which basically means "hell".
The Greater Will is God with a capital G.
Meanwhile, the Outer Gods (as implied by DLC lore and what we are given by the base game), are things that prey on misery and tragedy to gain influence. The Formless Mother and the Flame of Frenzy being prime examples of this.
According to the new lore revolving around Rot, it appears to have been much more benevolent and less destructive in the past and only became the destructive Scarlet Rot when Romina began to manipulate this element. I don't think they are malevolent creatures but rather other aspects of the universe derived from GW itself
If anything I think the new dlc makes it a lot more ambiguous how much direct action the Greater Will has taken. We can say with pretty close certainty that it was probably the thing that fractured the One Great and began the universe, hence the big bang, but beyond that I think all actions attributed to the Greater Will can be chalked up to it being a deification of outer space. All the direct actions we've seen it take, beyond the big bang, were just it "sending" things from space to crash onto the lands between, which really could just be interpreted as things coming from space. Us being "children of the greater will" because we come from stardust/outer space reinforces this. The "lightless abyss" of the Greater Will is just outer space, because it is outer space. The lore with Metyr also calls into question whether or not it had ever really communicated with the lands between in the first place.
It’s not an absolute God in the Christian sense. It is more of a Gnostic demiurge. He doesn’t create from nothing: he introduces degrees of separation and structure (order)
Question for ya, Why do we trust what Ymir says? What makes him a reliable narrator?
@@NUCLEARxREDACTED the frenzied flame acolyte blames the greater will for creating life and separation from the originary chaos. So even the enemies of the greater will accept it as the creator of life and organised universe
You can tell the Greater Will is the good guy. Its agents are giant peace signs ✌️
hahah true that
✌
Then the three fingers must be evil, because it can flip you the bird.
No it’s the middle 2 fingers, no piece
V for victory? Lol
Hyettas dialog at the end of her quest always reminds me of the law of regression, all things yearn eternally to converge
The entire game is just the impact of Law of Causality, while Frenzied Flame wants Law of Regression.
@@chronoshindou9848 I wouldn't really say that for certain - the Three Fingers and the Frenzied Flame seem much morel like a Throwback to Demon's Souls and the Old One. The message of the Three Fingers implies that they represent a fragment of the One Great that regrets in creation, whereas the Greater Will and the Two Fingers does not regret in creation. You might even say that the Three Fingers represents the "Lesser Will" (being significantly less divided and split), seeking to recreate the One Great in its totality.
The Law of Causality and Regression are concepts within the Golden Order supported by the Greater Will, and wouldn't map onto the Three Fingers or the Frenzied Flame.
@@monsieurdorgat6864 except the Three Fingers expressly declare a desire for exactly what Regression describes. The Golden Order Fundamentalists are looking for deeper cosmic realities that the Golden Order describes, and they’ve found laws older than the Erdtree - the laws of fracture and holism, causality and regression. The creation of separate things and the desire to melt everything together.
@@WanderedIn Eh, they're not looking for laws older than the Erdtree and provably so because they spurn the crucible. Regression is a conformance to the norm, i.e. that things converge, but not necessarily converge to their original form. Again, that would be the devolution described by Crucible talismans that are disdained.
The Golden Order and its fundamentalists also despise the Three Fingers and its servants. Clearly their goals are very different.
@@WanderedIn Which is also the history of the adherents of the Christian faith, as Puritans sought to unravel the secrets of God's natural world to be closer to him, but instead uncovered the very things which undermined their faith and brought about the Enlightenment, and the fading of faith.
You know what they say, the early outer god bird gets the greater will worm
😏
Lol
Boooo
@@Rare_D hello ghost
Lol. This was «golden» 😏
As someone who watches a lot of Tolkien videos and has researched that whole universe for about a decade now i gotta say id love to see you cover the Tolkien lore!! You seem to be very knowledgeable on it and with your lore formats it would be sick to see you do them!
I believe the One Great was basically the Prima Materia and the Greater Will was the crafter. This world is full of references to Metal, and the earliest form of the Erdtree was The Crucible, as you said basically a kiln to melt metal and separate alloys. Then the world went through ages; Stone Age for Dragons all the way up to the Gold Age under The Order and Marika. And over that time we got many races and peoples represented by metals: Gold for the Order, Iron for the Giants (Irons rust red), Stone for the Dragons with gold in them (in their veins like mines, imperfect), some form of black material like obsidian for the Death birds, Alloyed Gold intended for Miquella (love the concept for that, because Alloy is metal mixed with other material, in other words "Accepting Gold"). We are even called Tarnished, as in tarnished Metal, unclean. And note most of the Outer Gods represent things that taint, change, or are made of metals: 3 flames (fell, ghost and frenzy), 2 liquids (rot like oxidized metal and blood which has iron in it).
Also how do I contact Smoughtown if possible? I'd like to tell him a theory privately.
What an excellent analysis dude! My email is on my about tab
I don’t know if the “tarnished” label means unclean, just weathered, or having lost its golden luster
Don't forget the Nox and their silver!
not to be "that guy" but it's actually called unalloyed gold, since it repells outer gods and all that
You can tell me a theory privately I like your logic
I'd love your theories on the Jellyfish spirits. I've been so sure that there's some kind of cosmic outer god as a jelly fish. We see SO many of them near shrines, places of interest and there seems to be a lot of environmental storytelling of bodies near beaches and others circumstances where it seems there may be something in the ocean.
Some people become ghosts, but jellyfish seem to also act like spirits and we know some are intelligent with speech.
I would be happy if a single text string was uncovered in unused assets that read, "Only the cutest spirits may choose to become jellyfish."
Death is being symbolized with the ocean just like in Dark Souls. The First Flame's counterpart that was doomed to end it was the ever rising Deep created by the Dark Soul. Oceans all become eventual abysses that stop all light from reaching their depths and also extinguish fire. It's why Godwyn is transforming into something aquatic, as that symbolizes death.
They're just jellyfish lil bro
@@mhead1117 some be human at one point tho, even smaller brother
Currently writing a really immense essay on Marika’s motivations and her character more generally, definitely gonna be drawing on this when discussing her relationship to the Greater Will
@AverageGamerGuy I write about games generally; think pieces, reviews all that, but I’ve been enjoying working on this big chonky lore piece for a change - it’s very much a passion project! I did a way shorter timeline than yours, and this is sort of an accompaniment about how Marika would have felt at different points throughout her story, and what must have motivated her! Do you have a blog or something where youd publish your timeline? I’d love to read it!
Honestly, I'm not sure this is a good one. I think the speculative framing put here is not only highly discontinuous with Fromsoftware's previous storytelling and inclinations, but also ignores very important details in order to support that spurious frame. While I've certainly internalized some points from this to revise my conception, I would say I overall disagree with the thesis of this video. This video is honestly a better example of how our inevitable biases shape how we frame our ideas - in this case, it's clear that SmoughTown really likes applying a Tolkien/Abrahamic frame, even when it's pretty debatable whether there's evidence for that frame. So much of this story takes inspiration from Abrahamic faiths, only to be subversive of that inspiration, to take that as your overall frame of understanding.
But why
@@I_am_a_cat_ writing is fun
Are you going to post it anyway? I have ideas but am honestly at a wall.
Your theory ended up being quite true, in dlc ymir tell us that we are the children of the greater will and born of “stardust”, using your theory as foundation, the stardust of the Elden Star.
The Greater will is very neutral on what happens in the lands between, intervening only when: the nox committed their great betrayal against the greater will itself (which i think it was wounding metyr with the fingers-layer blade) and the punishment of Marika after she broke the Elden Ring.
The golden star makes sense because the first civilizations essentially worship meteorites. We see these meteorites are all gold. The meteorites probably broke off runes which gave life to the planet such as Stone
"Waltuh, put your sword away waltuh, im not choosing you as my vassal right now waltuh"
The Greater Will and the Two Fingers were always the biggest mystery to me while playing through the first, and this video completely contextualizes the whole game brilliantly. Best video yet!
Thank you Patrick! I had a blast making this one!
In my opinion the way which both Placidusax and the two fingers are looking/pointing up is too similar to be a coincidence. Maybe this gesture is a sign of the inhabitants of the former order when they get replaced.
I think Placidusax just chooses to do that. Like you said it's very similar to how the Two Fingers point up. Enia tells the Tarnished when the Two Fingers take this pose that they're communing with the Greater Will. Placidusax was once the Elden Lord before the Golden Order was established or at least was so powerful in his prime that he was simply the equivalent of one. The dragons too had their own Outer God. Possibly an earlier version of the Greater Will, just like how they have what seems to be an earlier version of the Elden Ring. Placidusax is there in that pose waiting for his Outer God to return. Possibly even praying, in desperation or hopelessness.
Placidusax also has only two heads left of the five.
Similarly how only constructive fingers are Two Fingers, Three having been cut off.
Where are people getting 5 heads from. I've literally looked over every last inch of him and unless you mean the spot where the tip of his tail would be, there is literally no spot where a 5th head could go. The description of the Old Lord's Talisman is literally like "Hey, you know that TWO headed dragon you fought in the ancient flying graveyard inside of a tornado at the beginning and end of time? Yeah, he used to be this FOUR headed dragon that I literally look exactly like".
Yes I've watched the Zullie video and saw absolutely nothing that looks like a spot where a 5th head could be and like I said, I looked over every inch of the guy. There is simply nowhere a 5th head could be. Zullie made a typo, I'd hope, because with how on the money they usually are with game information I don't think they'd believe something so obviously not true and I was also hoping that I'd get an answer other than Zullie's video because I already saw it and it was exactly why I asked.
@@ForeverLaxx I've literally looked at it every which way possible and there's literally no place for a 5th head. I don't know what to tell you besides you're clearly just making shit up. There is no third stump. Literally nothing and no one in the game says he's ever had five heads and there is no official informational website about the game that claims he's ever had 5 heads either. I even watched the Zullie video multiple times. It's not there.
Honestly Hyetta's dialogue to me crucially shows that the Greater Will is *NOT* the creator God (if one exists). The One Great _already existed!_ It was _not_ "created" by the Greater Will but rather "fractured". To me that is what the Greater Will does: it divides, it distinguishes because that is the basis for (non-trivial) "order". It is the Outer God of Disparity, and much like the First Flame there was a world of uniform grey before it. The Erdtree burial system seems to be "recycling" life rather than "creating" it as well.
What sets it apart, and why I do agree with the designation as an "Inner" God, is that the Greater Will _already won_ the struggle for dominance. At least from a long time ago until now if you become Lord of Frenzied Flame. History is written by the victors after all, the other Outer Gods are expunged or sealed and the very concepts of "history" and "intelligent" life are close to the purview of order. Plus most of the Abrahamic symbolism originates from the mortal and flawed beneficiaries of the Greater Will rather than more direct guidance (I suppose Marika's crucifixion is a counterexample, but then Marika herself is more of a Babel- or Lucifer-like antagonist than the self-sacrificing Son of God).
Of course none of this outright disproves the possibility of the Greater Will being the creator God, or being the primary shard of It after fracturing Itself, but I really do not understand your fixation on "creation" when Hyetta so clearly claims the prior existence of the One Great and even describes the action of the Greater Will as a "mistake" i.e. corruption. Although granted this is _the Frenzied Flame_ speaking and with it being deceptive, hypocritical and self-perpetuating it does remind me of the Mephistopheles depiction of the devil:
_"I am the Spirit that Denies!_
_And justly so: for all things, from the Void_
_Called forth, deserve to be destroyed:_
_'Twere better, then, were naught created._
_Thus, all which you as Sin have rated,-_
_Destruction,-aught with Evil blent,-_
_That is my proper element."_ - Faust I, Goethe
This is more in line with how I see it. I don't think TGW is actually any different than the OGs, except in one crucial aspect. TGW has taken dominion over this shard of reality. The OGs and TGW are equal entities, which is why the OGs structure their followers, and act in the same manner. It's because they're making incursions into this reality, rather than personally holding it, that they do not have the same sway or reverence as TGW does.
In the other shards of reality that were split from the One Great, if an OG had laid claim and TGW were the one making an incursion to corrupt and ultimately take control, their roles would be reversed. TGW would have the lesser station/influence of an OG, while its OG owner would appear as TGW does here. As an "Abrahamic" god whose dominion is under siege by outer influences.
Because, if they were beings at different levels of existence, why are WE the ones thwarting or advancing their plans? TGW would stand above the OGs and only their joint efforts would overcome it. But none of them are interested in the philosophies of their OG brethren. Which makes sense if they're all just equals fighting over their toys. TGW may even actually be engaged in this same sort of action amongst the other shards. They all may. Because most of them certainly appear to have their own territories. Mogh literally stabs into one to gain its power.
The Frenzied Flame seems like a huge throwback to Demon's Souls and the Old One - the Three Fingers and the god it represented were a fragment of the One Great that regretted Creation, and seek to reform the One Great in its totality.
I also largely disagree with this video. It also ignores how the Crucible "blended life together" - that is, _reshaping currently existing life_ , and not creating it. This heavily implies that the Elden Beast is no different than any of the other Outer Gods. If you were to be charitable, the Greater Will may, by its very name, be the largest or most affective fragment of the One Great, as it clearly seeks to continue the current process of fracturing the One Great.
You have to think it in alchemical concepts.
The One Great is the Prima Materia or the Ouroboros.
In many creation Myths there is some type of primoradial essence that just exists and a creator god that also just exists. The God then moulds that essence into the world. For example Genesis:
[1:1] In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth,
[1:2] the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.
Or Babylonian Myth
In the beginning, there was only undifferentiated water swirling in chaos. Out of this swirl, the waters divided into sweet, fresh water, known as the god Apsu, and salty bitter water, the goddess Tiamat. Once differentiated, the union of these two entities gave birth to the younger gods.
It's interesting that the Frenzied Flame's only wish for its reign is to return to the One Great, with no other will to rule in any way. Makes me wonder if the Outer Gods aren't somehow offspring of the One Great, with the Flame regretting the split from the original form of life and seeking only to return to it, like how Ranginui and Papatūānuku were separated in Māori creation stories, with the Greater Will acting as Tāne (or Tangaroa, as the case may be) and separating them with the other Outer Gods as Tāne's siblings (although, in this case, while they likely agreed with the will on the separation of the One Great, they were probably racing to get there first) and the Flame as the regretful Tāwhirimātea, who wants the world back as it was.
I feel like the game's Norse inspirations are very frequently overlooked.
While I don't mean this as any sort of thesis, the story of Ymir in Norse mythology is a fairly accurate parallel to the One Great and its fracture, and Odin a parallel to the Greater Will. Radagon seems directly influenced by the red-haired, hammer wielding Thor as well; Thor was often a vassal of Odin, as Radagon/ Marika is to the Greater Will.
Just food for thought.
This, and blend in some historical, and even religious texts behind alchemy and the alchemical rebis and the picture of Elden Ring already becomes more clear. This seems to be George Martins influence on the story. Whereas things like the runes and these concepts of order and disparity we see in the game are heavily tied to Miyazaki as disparity was the concept used in Dark Souls to explain how the age of fire came to be from the age of the everlasting dragons.
Radagon also works as a parallel for Norse Gods as they were all many things at once. Radagon's red hair also suggests relation with the red haired giants of the mountains, and like Thor, he purged the absolute living hell out of them.
Godfrey seems more of the Thor lite in this game. Big strong warrior used as a weapon to eliminate the enemies of the greater will/ its chosen Marika, and is known as being fundamentally the strongest of all and almost entirely unbeatable in a game of fisty cuffs.
He slaughters the giants, drives off placidusax, conquers the dragons, and defeats the storm king. I don’t really see many parallels of Thor in Radagon as Thor was the most straight forward of all the Norse gods, and preferred a straight head on fight rather than subterfuge and political marriages.
Also there are sagas that have Thor with blonde hair, though the red hair version seems more popular.
Norse myth was often concerned with the natural inevitability of fate and such. Fitting for a Miyazaki work.
Ragnarok was always fated to happen, it was inevitable. By shackling the stars Radagon hindered fate from following its course. Looking at it through the lens of Norse myth, it would be like forbidding ragnarok from happening (or rather, delaying it for an indeterminate amount of time). I
According to myth Ragnarok was not the end of the world however. Many old gods died, but the world was still there. Things merely changed. Much like in some of the Elden Ring endings, or at least the ones who don't simply prolong the age of the Erdtree.
Kinda forgot the Norse inspirations in the game, not gonna lie, so thanks for reminding me. Interesting to think about
I haven't watched the Full Video, since currently am at work, but I would like to point out something: Miquella's Needle works when you become the Lord of Frenzy, and it is stated to exclusively cure the meddling of OUTER GODS.
This automatically means the Three Fingers and Frenzied Flame have their own Outer God, and the Two Fingers and Greater Will being their exact opposites (Order being opposite of Chaos) also imply they are an Outer God too.
Sure one can say Greater Will is "stronger" or have more influence over Lands Between than other Outer Gods, but in the end it still is one of the Outer Gods. Just one of the more prominent and benevolent ones.
I will edit this comment later if i find anything noticeable after seeing your video though.
EDIT1: The concept of Five Fingers is actually important, considering how the Conquedea outright states that a Beast's Five Fingers is symbolic of the intelligence granted upon their kind. Outright hinting at the existence of Five Fingers, so the concept cannot be easily ditched.
Note that the needle does not remove grace, this could just be gameplay but our connection to the greater will and it's followers are intact
@@pigzy9807 98% chance it's just a gameplay thing but still worth noting that since Miquella was a Golden Order Fundamentalist, it wouldn't make much sense for his Unalloyed Gold needle to cut us off from the Guidance of Grace. Just a thought. Not sure if it's a good one.
The Elden Beast has five fingers, is the thing. And what is intelligence, but Will?
The Greater Will’s two fingers are representative of guidance - each number of fingers has a particular meaning in the Lands between. There is ‘misfortune’ (three is an unlucky number) and the Frenzied Flame speaks a gospel of misfortune, of God’s mistake in the creation of life and separate existence when once there was only one God.
Grace isn't actually something controlled by Greater Will, it's actually controlled by Marika. As evidenced by her dialogue with Godfrey regarding his banishment, and how the Tarnished revives at Stakes of Marika, implying she is the one who keeps reviving us through Grace.
Miquella's needle only controls Outer Gods, but Marika is no Outer God.
@@WanderedIn Are you using your christian beliefs to try to make a point? there´s no lore to support that 2 fingers is representative of guidance and 3 fingers of misfortune (that´s is a christian superstition) The elden beast is Radagon phase 3 and has 5 fingers because is the Greater Will taking fully control of Radagon´s body...if you look carefully at one of the sides of Radagon you will see that is totally busted but is like something dark and golden is inside him...just the same thing that composes the EB body...
One thing to note is that the ulcerated tree spirits do have a sort of corrupted version of golden flames, including a corrupted golden flame breath. This makes sense though, since the erdtree avatars also wield abilities similar to the elden beast, and the ulcerated tree spirits seem to be similar beings to the avatars, both being plant like beings born from the erdtree. So it would make sense for them to also have abilities similar to the Elden Beast.
The ulcerated Tree Spirits seem to be Erdtree Avatars whose Erdtree has been destroyed; iirc you always find them in places where a minor Erdtree would be but has been destroyed. It makes sense as a sort of Shinto spirit
Thanks for the great vid as always!! As a sidenote, I love the voice actor for Shabriri when you talk to him in the mountains - how he slowly reveals his insanity, as he starts being too eager about chaos lol.
Glad you enjoy it! Agree the actor is a phenomenal talent!
Great video as always. I love that you and the other “souls tubers” are working together on your projects. Good to see you all engaging in jolly cooperation.
Just so much talent in this community!
I really appreciate your references to everything- other philosophies, TH-camrs, etc. It gives a more full story than just "hey here's my opinion!" I just found this channel and I'm really enjoying your content, thank you :D
Yes! This is one of my favorite ER topics can't wait to see what kick ass analysis you have for us this time.
I hope you enjoy!
I’d argue the Elden Beast itself is likely the source from which all life sprang forth. It has an amorphous, blobby body like an amoeba, but is clearly hard and brittle on the outside like a reptile, as evidenced by the shattering noises when we hit it. It has insectoid/draconic wings, yet has a tail somewhere between a shark, a scorpion, and whatever you call that dinosaur with a mace for a tail. It is also bipedal and has humanoid digits. The Elden Beast is basically what you’d get if every single creature both real and imaginary regressed into one being
An excellent point
If we're to believe what the Frenzied Flame says, everything including all of the Outer Gods, used to be one thing. Like a one is all, all is one kind of god. Hyetta refers to it as an entity called The One Great. She also says the Greater Will made a mistake. Other in game things say that the Crucible was where all life came from (possibly meaning only mortal life as how could you be the source of all life without being alive). The Crucible being theorized to be when the Great Tree and the Erdtree were one. What this implies is that either Hyetta is merely referring to that or there was something even longer ago than that, where literally every last thing was one being, or it was nothing at all, and just like life in reality just magically happened, so too did the Greater Will magically develop its own consciousness within the primordial cesspool and the mistake it made was breaking off from it, creating the concept of change. As when everything is one or is nothing, nothing can happen and nothing can change. That being said it is also most likely that the Greater Will is the Outer God that would most closely resemble The One Great in power and appearance.
Just to add to this idea. The Elden Stars is the most ancient Erdtree Incantation, wich means it predates the Crucible incantaions. This could be a good hint for that the Elden Beasts arrival predates, or even caused the Crucible to come to existence.
I dunno. That people understand the Elden Beast arrived from a star, and recorded this, hints to me that life, sapient life, already existed before its arrival.
@@dantoki6371 Crucible came before Erdtree and Elden Beast but not before the Greater Will itself. The Crucible is basically just the Erdtree before the Greater Will sent down the Elden Beast like how in Farum Azula where Placidusax was the equivalent of Elden Lord before the Golden Order was even established, has an older, larger Elden Ring.
If Death & the Deathbirds reigned prior to the age of the Erdtree then wouldn't that mean the Greater Will at some point usurped Death's power or at least unseated it? That makes me think the GW also came from "without" rather than being intrinsic to the Lands Between.
Also, if the Greater Will sent the Elden Beast & Elden Ring down to The Lands Between, where did it send them from? It just seems from that language that at one time the GW resided outside of the Lands Between rather than being inherent to it.
In my opinion I think most outer gods and the Deathbirds just want to reign over their area of expertise. I think this Death outer god oversaw the rules of Death, until the Greater Will decided it didn't want Death to be done that way any more and shafted it
The Greater Will isn't and never was physically inside or on the Lands Between itself, just as the Abrahamic God is not visible to humans, it just effects change to the world and communicates with its chosen. It willed a meteor containing the Elden beast to crash to the land to begin it's world the way it wanted
@@115UndeadAnarchy115 so the other Outer gods might have sent representatives that were once or potentially still currently dwell in the Lands Between?
@@ioncewasmikey Like Smough says, the Outer Gods just don't seem to be on the same level of power like that of the Greater Will. They seem to be able to manifest physically (see Rot Scorpion Outer God, and I personally believe the Frenzy Outer God was manifested as the Three Fingers until it entered our body like a parasite), and the Death Outer God still has envoys in the Deathbirds.
What we don't know is their intentions, really
I cannot believe how quickly you churn out these videos. They're extremely comprehensive but you also put the time in to add visuals. You're one of my favorite souls loretubers
Thanks Wesley!
I'm still of the opinion that the Greater Will is not fundamentally a different type of being from the outer gods, the M.O. just seems too similar, especially with the Elden Beast's golden flame seeming directly analogous to the fell god/frenzied/blood/black/ghost flames associated with the outer gods.
Beyond that, the biggest sticking points for me are 1. the Elden Beast came from the stars, bringing the Elden Ring with it, suggesting that the power of the Greater Will is external to the world of the lands between similar to the outer gods, and 2. the act of creation you focus on setting it apart from the outer gods does seem directly analogous to the corruption/mutation of pre-existing life that the outer gods do, considering that as far as I know nothing suggests that it actually made the One Great, there was some type of life here already when it arrived, and it instilled division and diversity to it, build its order and ideals into life the same way the outer gods mutate life to fit their ideals. The Crucible was the first step in that, where creatures began to live and be born and die and have souls, but still melded and shared features, and was futher refined in later ages to have stricter separation and classifications of creatures as separate things, with their place in the order of the world. I imagine the influence of the Outer Gods might see similar progressions, with Caelid and the Dynastry of Blood just being the primordial forms of the eventual worlds of those respective gods, being influenced by what was there before to some degree, and later ages of those gods might be very different.
It's a good video, and well argued, but in the end I have to echo the sentiment of some others here in the comments; to me it seems most likely that the Greater Will is just the Outer God currently In Office, and who's had the chance to affect life and this world the longest.
Great points dude, thank you!
It's the "the greater will made a mistake" implications it can have are what's causing this debate I think.
I think that considering the fact that the Elden Beast was sent to the lands between just confirms that the Greater Will is indeed an outer god.
Of course the descriptions of items that were constructed after the Greater Will started to exert it's influence in the Lands Between and set itself as the one and only will be referring to it as an god not an outer god
very true!
@@SmoughTown only now I finished the video, good video btw.
Now, although I think it's a good video, I just think you perhaps forgot about the Elden Beast while thinking it through.
For me the Greater Will was solely one of the first ones to arrive in the Lands Between, along with the death god from the birds and perhaps with the Scarlet Rot god, but it was the fastest to stablish itself, spread and change the environment to it's will
The in-game descriptions are (and always have been in FromSoft games) true, albeit often ambiguous. In fact, ambiguous by necessity of that veracity. And while they are often information that someone in-universe would know if familiar with the item, they are just as often character's literal thoughts/feelings. That is to say, the item descriptions are non-diegetic, spoken by an omniscient narrator, and should not be considered to be influenced in a meta way by the ideology of this or that in game character.**
All that is to say, and I haven't watched the video and am not sure I will, the Greater Will is definitively unambiguously an "Outer God" insofar as Outer Gods are entities literally outside the world at large (implied by the existence of other more-mundane lands accessible by boat, rather than elden-beast-laden-comet-hurdling, from the lands between)
If the whole thesis of this video is just that "outer god" is textually referring to "gods outside of grace," I suppose that's a possible interpretation.
**On that note, FromSoftware character dialogue is NOT omniscient nor almost *ever* truthful. There are so many reasons to be suspicious of Hyetta and "the One Great," and it's a really weak and peripheral element to base so much theorizing on.
So my thought is that if there was only one kind of life and everything was one there would be no need for something that loves order to send the elden beasts to that place because everything would have been in order cuz everything was the same. if it was sent there that means they must have already been differences there and a lack of order
@@allorgansnobody I don't think you got my point. I know the items are like characters thoughts, but Smough referenced the Greater Will are a parallel to God (Cristian and the likes kind of god), and what happens on those religions is that their god is considered as the one and only, the same parallel can be extended to the Greater Will.
Since in ER the Outer Gods have wills and actual palpable influence and are not something impossible to be proven to even exist (much like the gods from the real world) the descriptions of items could very well have their influence when it comes to describing itself as the one and only true God. You get what I mean? In FS games we have actual deities or god-like beings that influence the world in a palpable and direct way, so we can't assume that the items descriptions are exempt from ideology, because they are not. The world has been existing for long and said gods/god-like beings surely imposed their ideology onto the world and chased away those that disagree with it.
In ER case this is ridiculously more evident. The Greater Will, through Marika, chased away the fire giants, stole the concept of death and made it so that any other means of death (death birds, the gloom eyes queen and her's Godskin) would be considered somewhat of heretic, much like fire is the utmost sin, not to mention their wars against the wizards that could very well hold their ground to the point that Marika would not win, she needed to call for a truce and then a fake marriage just to get the wizards "in check".
I don't know if I diverged myself too much but hope my point has been clarified.
Great video…as per usual. Even though I stopped playing once I got the platinum, your videos always give more to think about and point out thing I’ve missed and makes me excited to get back after the dlc drops.
Thanks Cody! I hope to continue to do so
I always viewed Ungoliant as a personification of the chaos strewn into the song of creation, thus why she aided Melkor. And Tom Bombadil being a personification of the order of the song of creation.
Awesome interpretation. TB has always perplexed me
I always wondered if Ungoliant wasn't born of a 'full stop' in the music of creation so to speak. I always thought TB was a/maybe the last Valar
@@psychosytheXmediaXco why the last?
that´s a amazing (and beautiful) pov...I always though that TB was Tolkien himself...you know, the creator making a character for himself and putting his own pov about things...
Sorry I missed your comment! I also like this theory, but imo the main point to bear in mind is that seeing Ungoliant as simply outside of Eru's creation doesn't make sense within Tolkien's overall Catholic metaphysics.
Dude these lore vids are getting insane
Great video, as always! I'm going to be chewing on this one for awhile. Like any well-presented thesis, IDK if I totally agree, yet I have gotten some additional perspective and richness that will carry itself into my time and appreciation of the game and it's world.
Thanks for making those in depth videos, always looking forward to the next one. Hope you continue!!
Hey Charles that's super generous and super appreciated. Thank you so much
This video made me think about the fact that for a long time, the Greater Will has been viewed as a bad thing by a lot of people in the lore community, for reasons such as the treatment of the omen and those who live in death, etc. But, when you really look at it, all those awful things that resulted from order werent put in place by the greater will. It was gods, demigods, and mortals that decided these things, based on their own interpretation of order. The greater will is a passive force in the world, only acting directly when absolutely necessary to avoid a complete breakdown of order.
This isn't to say it doesn't have a single flaw. It is an inherently selfish force, doing whatever it must to preserve its own power, though I have to wonder how much of that is it acting directly and how much is the two fingers taking matters into their own hands, as we know they can do based on the events of the game.
I agree and I think the thing about Souls games is there are no 'good guys' or 'bad guys', it is all perspective.
I think you're totally right, especially because I think a lot of people conflate the Greater Will with the Golden Order and forget that the Crucible is not only part of the Greater Will but arguably more in line with its actual qualities because not as much had been cut out from the Elden Ring yet. I think the Golden Order shows how the concept of "order" can change from something more like "structure/organization" in a biological/(meta)physical sense, to something more like "control/domination" in a sociopolitical and religious sense.
I am actually glad more and more people are actually researching into Greater Will's qualities instead of the Outer Gods for once. For once poeple are realising that the GW may not actually be bad and the "Ruling God bad" thought train seems to be actually wrong, and rather it's the mortals such as Marika that are at fault, something which Goldmask realised after his long communication with (possibly) the Greater Will.
As for the reply above me, yes you are absolutely correct about Crucible and Greater Will's connection. Elden Stars , a LEGENDARY spell, is described as the "MOST ancient of spells that derives from Erdtree". On the other hand the Aspects of Crucible spells, are only said as "Ancient Erdtree spell". This implies that chronologically:-
Elden Ring gets sent by GW through Elden Beast -> birth of the Crucible and ALL life. Of course most people will deny it cause of their in-born hatred of the Greater Will, but I think that is actually the case. The wording of those spells just seem to imply the chronology I told.
I think the ways of old are far more justified then the new ones.
Although seemimgly barbaric there seemed to be some form of balance. I really dislike the Greater Will and the Golden order and I'm not sure why, maybe I still believe that a One Great actually exists and sadly no longer holds influence on the lands. I think it all falls down on the way mankind presents itself.
Sure we evolve but we destroy, far more then we create upsetting the natural order of things. We hear of all those ancient beings that fell inevitably due to the conquest man inflicts on all, its not so strange we humans far outnumber the presence of beasts, giants, dragons, albastar lords, namor*, ect. That's because our presence is undeniable and we are imperfect creations easily influenced.
If their was a creator god, it's quite possible this flaw in humanity is the very thing destroying these worlds. I think its our job as players to rise above the darkness, and quite simply find a way to lead humanity out of this dark fate. Perhaps one day through this process humanity eventually freed itself from divine influence of the forces that govern the world.
Tolkien made a story that was incomplete that made it seem as if middle earth and the time of the Numenorians was just a forgotten age like Atlantis.
Cheers again geoff! Always keen to hear your unique and thoughtgul insights. Your channel doesnt get the support it really deserves, but all of us really appreciate it!
Thank you so much dude, I am super grateful for everyone's wonderful support
@@SmoughTown Not to overstate this, but we are so grateful for your content. Your videos have really helped me manage the stress of a masters degree. Im sure im not the only person you've helped through difficult patches!
@@jacksonicsaudio6562 Honestly I am humbled to hear that. I wish you the best for your Masters and hope to continue to give you good content!
Wasn't really sure which video to comment this on: Do you think that Elden Ring is essentially a story about grief, and the inability of so many to properly grieve? If you think about it, so many of the tragic actions taken that lead to disaster involve trying to prevent or halt grief. Marika's removal of the rune of death. Miquella's quest to save Millenia. Millenia's surrender to the scarlet rot to avoid losing to Radan. Markia's shattering of the ring in response to losing her favored son. The Three Finger's need for unity. Fia's support of those who live in death. Even down to lowly Godrick and his desire to stave off the end of his line. Golden Mask's need to perfect/preserve the Golden Order. It goes on.
Contrast to Ranni who gives up her physical form, and passes from all that is comfortable and known into the age of stars, facing fear, the unknown, and uncertainty. (IE coming out the other side of grief to a life beyond it)
Minor but interesting note: I think the Ulcerated Tree Spirits have the golden flame goin' on as well, don't they?
Yep
I don't think the greater will is different from the other outer gods for a few reasons :
First of all, hyetta says "all there is came from the one great" and "what was borrowed must be returned". The word borrowed means that life does not come from the greater will but rather from the one great, the greater will is just the one using the one great's creation. Either it was the first outer god to be interested in that creation, or the strongest outer god who gained control trough fight, or maybe it was the one who asked the one great to make it. To compare to tolkien's work, I think the one great is akin to illuvithar while the greater will is more like Manwe, one of the valar (// outer god), second in strength only to melkor and the one who rule the other valar and the world created by illuvithar.
Secondly, the outer god of frenzy seem to be and outer god who's disapointed in the greater will's rule and want it to return the creation to nothingness, to the one great who made it. The use of the three fingers is to mirror and show it's opposition to the greater will's ideals. The outer god of frenzy does not want to take over the land between for himself like the other outer gods, but to return them to their creator. This is speculation of course but I think it make sense that the outer gods can have varying motivations, like how the outer god of the twinbirds seem only interested in the death rites, not really motivated to fully rule the land between.
Thirdly, the greater will does corrupt the land like the god of rot or the formless mother. The effect of the greater will its to turn things golden, we can see it all over the altus plateau. We even have comparaison with in game items with the blood-tinged excrement from moghwyn palace and the gold-tinged excrement from altus. There is also gold on certain body parts of the ancient dragons and of course the whole erdtree covered in gold.
Lastly, as pointed out in the video, the greater will and the other outer gods have similar way of doing things : they have envoys to carry their will, as they cannot commune directly with the land between's inhabitant (two finger, twinbird, three finger), they have a god, probably to serve as a host for their power (marika, malenia, miquella) and a lord, to rule the land between (radagon, mogh, us as lord of frenzy). However, as the greater will is the current ruler, he has the most servants in place while the other outer gods are still trying to set up their rule. You could argue that the formless mother does not have envoys and commune directly with its lord, but so did the greater will back in the era of the dragon lords i believe : the posture of placidusax is similar to the one of the two fingers when communicating with the greater will, this must be the way the greater will contact earthly beings, while the formless mother's way is using blood.
I think the reason why the greater will seem to be getting a different treatment from the others outer gods is just because its the one who controls the lands between, thats why he is regarded as the one true god by the land between's inhabitant while the other outer gods are seen as invador trying to take the greater will's place.
100% a valid interpretation!
@@SmoughTown I too believe that the Greater will did not create life because of what Hyetta says. If first all life was melded together as the One Great then the Greater Will did not always exist on it's own, although it could have always existed.. as all life has, just as one. I believe the Greater Will could have been a sort of consciousness. Perhaps it was the first thing that had thought of anything at all other than basic needs, like consuming things to live such as eating and breathing. Perhaps the Greater Will began cataloguing all which encompasses the One Great and how the life within it, differed from itself and realizing that self, shattered the One Great into what the Greater Will had catalogued. That which consumes (chaotic flame) the effect of consumption (wounds and blood) what happens when consuption occurs (death of what is consumed) and what becomes of the dead (recycled energy within the system of the One Great) and finally the individuality of those forces seperate from one another in how they function and this would be Order. My thoughts are not as refined as most but perhaps you may understand!
Considering the options, lord over the undead, omens, Frankenstein experiments (and their masters), warmongers, or literal ashes. It's becoming clear that the best ending is Perfect Order. Choosing this path you ultimately serve the One Great, the maker of life itself.
The reasoning is:
1)the Greater Will betrays you when the guidance of grace serves Hora Loux/Elden Beast fighting you. So when we got betrayed who else would be reviving us, other than the the one Great, to take down the elden beast? If it's another outer God doing the reviving, then who else has access to site of grace that logically/thematically makes sense?
2) As Hyetta stated, the origin of existence came from the One Great and the one at fault is the Greater Will for bringing in fractures(I suspect it to be unguided individual will) into the world thus leading to "every sin and curse"
3)The Goldmask mirrors(thus serving) the One Great perfectly in terms of being silently mysterious, lack of attention to anyone other than esoteric prophets like Corryn, and hilariously the behavior of a tree, the very thing that has brought, sustained, reincarnates/resurrects life(regardless if it's crucible or erdtree)
In conclusion the One Great is existence. Thus those within the Perfect Order will protect all who desire to exist. Nothing more noble as a tarnished to rise and become an
honorable lord.
Finally got round to watching. Impressive as always! And thanks a lot for the shout out to the channel and the Nameless Things video 👍. I've only played about 100 hours of Elden Ring so far (been annoyingly busy) but I've only started scratching the surface. And for what it's worth, the Greater Will always reminds me of Demon's Souls!
You are welcome bro, been really enjoying your work!
Man your videos just keep getting better and better. I cannot wait for the deep dive on the Flame of Frenzy.
Thanks dude, FF is the next on the cards!
I disagree with your idea of the Greater Will not being an Outer God simply because it interacts with The Lands Between the exact same way as they others have, through a chosen vessel/beast (Elden Beast/Mohg/Scorpion of Rot) as they cannot physical exist there
Edit: Also I would like you to look at the Onyx Lord’s Greatsword and the Alabaster Lord’s Sword item description and see what your thoughts are on the lore implications they provide
This is my stance before watching the video
I will come back and give my stance then after the evidence you provide
Fair play dude, I also concede at the end it could still be an outer god, but one that has a greater connection to the lands between and the language in JP suggests Outer Gods are 'external' to this world, where as the greater will is intrinsically lied. Either way I hope you still enjoy and let me know your thoughts!
@@SmoughTown I think there is also an interesting detail about the biblical god, which is that its significance and.. uniqueness has changed during history. Originally many of the texts that would become parts of the old testament talked about other gods on top of the biblical one, many of which would later be demoted to angels or removed from the texts entirely.
I dont know if this might have been used as an idea but i could see how the beliefs of the world would sort of twist the nature of the greater will, or alternatively that the greater will physically became different from the other, outer, gods.
I do disagree with you on the bit that outer gods don't create anything, because to me its unclear if the greater will actually created all life. we know it made intelligent life, but unsure about the others. However, we can speculate a detail that is implied about the erdtree, which is that in the lands between, humans are born from the erdtree, while demihumans are born of mothers. We can also see a mirror of this with the scarlet rot, where the buds around the aeonia birth children. I know its not exactly confirmed but the amount of references to millicent and her sisters being buds and the flowerbuds around the aeonia seem pretty strong.
@@SmoughTown Very good video enjoyed it thoroughly, very informative
I definitely agree with what you say the Greater Will represents it being a “Creator God” similar to Christianity’s God but I believe that’s what all the Outer Gods are.
The Greater Will is simply the Sculptor of the Clay(Life) right now and in order for the Outer Gods to use the “Clay” they must reduce it what it was originally to “Start Again”
hence why they “corrupt and rebirth life from death” because the way the life is “Molded” right now is in an unusable state for their view of life
I don’t know if you seen it when I edited my original comment but the Onyx Lords Greatsword and the Alabaster Lords Greatsword item descriptions describe the same event but with 2 distinct differences
One Meteor was Golden (Elden Beast)
And the other was a Blue-White.
Now I’m not sure whos Outer God it could belong to but my guess it has something to do with Astel or a being like Astel
This could indicate two things for me
1)the Elden Beast is a “Star” the same as Astel
or
2) Another Vassal Beast (the Twinbird?) came to the lands between the same way Elden Beast has and created life “In it’s own image” giving another layer to the Life, Death and Rebirth symbolism in the game
Or it could be both
Either way I would like your view on why the Onyx and Alabaster swords descriptions describe the same event but for two different entities
I'm interpreting it as there were several unrelated, unknowable, cosmic beings in the universe. One, which became know as The Greater Will created this world and everything in it. It therefore is a true god, the Iluvatar comparison fitting quite nicely. What makes those other cosmic beings "outer" gods is simply the fact that they are outside of the sphere of influence of The Greater Will. Perhaps on the same power level, perhaps not. Probably incomprehensible to a mortal anyhow.
I really like how Smough theorizes they are mimicking the order of The Greater Will to influence it's peoples. Easy to imagine an entire world to cultivate and control would be an enviable prospect to another cosmic entity who couldn't create one of their own. So they try an usurp it by moving pieces on the cosmic chessboard so to speak.
@@MoeBalingerIllustration my head canon is basically the same but instead of it creating life on Lands Between and/or Elden Ring it usurped it from a previous “Outer God”
My belief is the Lands Between/Elden Ring is the Crucible/One Great
and that’s why so many Outer Gods are fighting for power and dominion there
because whoever does, governs the universal laws of the Lands Between and everything outside of it
The Crucible became the Erdtree. This we know. The Crucible is where all life began, that we know.
What we also know, is that The Erdtree came into existence with the arrival of The Elden Star.
Notice how not once is The Greater Will credited with the direct creation of anything but the symbols of it's power and control (The Elden Ring, The Golden Order, The Erdtree, The godhood of Marika, the Grace of Gold).
And as for the life of the Crucible, there are two types of people still directly connected to it (or believed to be): The Misbegotten, and The Omen; and they are both spurned from grace.
The pattern The Greater Will follows is one of conquest rather than creation- those who surrender or are willing to serve are safe, those who are not, are wiped out, banished, or enslaved. It's a conqueror. And that's what I think is the Crucible connection- essentially, The Greater Will used The Crucible, through The Elden Star, to grow The Erdtree in order to claim control of The Lands Between. Something all Outer Gods seem to want to do in some way.
What's why The Omen are beloved to be cursed by the Crucible- they are born in a shape that predates The Greater Will's influence, and are thus lacking the guidance of Grace. So they are seen as condemned -when in reality, it's more like they are immune to it's control, since we know The Greater Will uses the guidance of grace to push people to serve it.
I would also argue that yes, Placidusax and the ancient dragons may have worshipped The Greater Will, but this does not suggest The Greater Will made them.
Marika's hair seems to be gold. Not "golden", but actual gold. And we have no evidence The Greater Will directly made her- so it's more likely that gold is a manifestation of becoming vessels to The Greater Will, in the same way regular people living in grace are supposed to have golden eyes.
This would not mean The Greater Will is the creator god, as much as that this is not the first time it became the ruling Outer God.
I believe that the greater will and the outer God of the frenzied Flame are offshoots of the great one. When the great one made the universe they realized that it was flawed, however they could not decide on how to deal with the flawed universe. I believe that the great one split its choices into two separate entities, the greater will who would fix the universe by bringing order to it and the frenzied Flame who would erase the mistake in its entirety.
None of us can definitively say the greater will isn't an outer god....after all if it "sent the elden beast and elden ring down to the mortal plane" it sure sounds like it resides outside of this world. Perhaps it is just the outer God who has been winning the battle for this world?
You know Its a good day when Smough Town uploads
Thank you Finn, hope you enjoy
Here's a take on it maybe more in line with previous Souls universes:
* Greater Will = First Flame, Old One from Demon's Souls
* Golden Order = Age of Fire
* Chaos, Dark Moon(s), Death God, Rot, Formless Mother, etc = alternative systems/Ages (Age of Man, Ancients, Deep, Paintings etc)
It's easy to conflate Greater Will and Golden Order but they might not have to be identical. GO could just be the currently dominant system/set of logic/"Age" and therefore they claim to be closest or most in line with GW. Like Gwyn's Age of Fire outlasting all the other systems of the DS world, which would naturally be a cyclic progression.
Elden Lord = the position of whoever decides which logic/Outer God dominates the world currently. Marika chose GO, before her Placidusax maybe chose some other OG.
And we the player also decide as Elden Lord what the next Age will be (although it's just between GO, Chaos, Death, Defilement and Darkmoon/Stars)
Oh thank goodness. Since the very first time I heard the greater will mentioned, I took it to be the spontaneous and chaotic happenings of the universe, interpreted as wilful by the conscious agents that have will
Just want to say I appreciate you linking sources and other creators content. I appreciate it mightily. Thanks!
Cheers Jacob
These videos and analysis are what makes me love Elden Ring so much, despite some flaws I've noticed lately in the game. Many props! So well done.
Thank you so much!
I think the reason the greater will is not considered a outer for simply because they are the one in power. They saw a opportunity of creating a power and took it before the other outer gods and therefore became " the God" of the lands between and has created it in such a way that it is nearly impossible for the outer gods to become what I call a "inter god" (a outer god that is in power and has the position to enact their will).
Yeh I defo see the GW as an Inner God
So while I love this whole interpretation, there is something I think is worth consideration: scarlet rot did seemingly create life. Its form is definitely inspired by other life already in the world, so it still kinda required a preexisting force of life, but the methodology is very similar to the way that Molag Bal and other deadric princes in the elder scrolls create new forms for the daedra, such as the dragon based ones in eso. Once one was corrupted, that form was essentially in the database for daedric essence to take.
Yep defo a good point
I think I could argue that rot doesn’t “create” in the same way the greater will could/does. The greater will creates from nothing (no previous life created) meanwhile the rot can only create with the ashes, or goop in this case, of former life. More like the flood in halo than anything else.
Some further food for thought. In the book of Job, the Behemoth is called the Chief of God's creation. Behemoth is described as being massive, with a large belly and a tail, and live in and/or near water. Many Theologists believe that this refers to a large dinosaur, like an Apatasaur or Brachiosaur. Now look at the Elden Beast, the Vassal to lead the Lands Between. It looks like an enormous long-necked dinosaur, has a big belly and a tail, and moves in water.
This is probably the most interesting look at the Greater Will I’ve seen from the community so far! I definitely agree with many aspects of this analysis, but strongly disagree with others, I think I should explain my interpretation and where it differs in full.
The main area where I disagree is in your stance that the statement “the Greater Will is the highest creator deity of the setting, above all the other divine entities” mutually exclusive with the statement “the Greater Will is an Outer God”. In my view, the Greater Will can be a higher degree of Outer God, or more intrinsic to creation than other Outer Gods, while still being the same kind of being as the others. It is a uniquely powerful Outer God, the first of its kind and the most important, but still an Outer God. I believe its need for intermediaries and its as an intangible or incorporeal higher being or force that embodies a concept (in its case Order) just scream Outer God to me. That doesn’t mean it can’t be an analogue for the monotheistic Abrahamic God like your video goes over, just that this term may apply to it as well within the fictional universe.
I don’t buy the theory that “Outer God” refers to a god which is outside the Order, primarily because other deities which are DEFINITELY outside the Order like the Fell God are not referred to as Outer Gods. I think the term “Outer God” refers instead to a higher divine being that is the manifestation or personification of a concept, and don’t think they’re necessarily extrinsic to the world at all. You are correct that the Greater Will is intrinsic to the creation of the world, but so is the very-definitely-an-Outer-God Frenzied Flame, which I’ll get to in a bit.
What you interpret as the other Outer Gods imitating the Greater Will Melkor-style, I interpret as indications that the Greater Will is the same type of being as them and has to operate similarly to them. These are both reasonable ways to interpret this part of the lore, but there is a reason I disagree with your interpretation. While I love all the Tolkien analogies, I don’t think they’re quite applicable to the situation being discussed here. While the greater will is responsible for creation, it too engages in corruption (of sorts, I don’t think it’s malevolent). You brought up Sin and Sophie’s analysis in the video so I’ll draw on them here as well - we can see the Greater Will’s proxies changing or terraforming the world the same way the Formless Mother and God of Rot do. All of the vegetation and foliage in Altus Plateau has become a gold color, a color which seems highly unnatural, and the sky itself is golden. This to me seems no different from what these other Outer Gods are doing, though in the Greater Will’s case, its influence seems far more benign than the horrific mutations inflicted by the other Outer Gods. Its nature as the creator of life may be related to this, as life may be more welcoming to its influence than it is to these other deities’ influences.
Similarly, I don’t think the parallels between the Frenzied Flame and Greater Will are meant as mockery. The main reason to think both Fingers were part of one hand, to me at least, is that the Greater Will’s origin lies in fracturing the One Great. It seems like the Greater Will is the first thing that split itself off from the One Great, then splintered it to create life and individual existence, then whatever was left of that original primordial chaos became the Frenzied Flame. If not for that creation myth, I might agree with you, but the way the creation story is described implies to me that they were once part of the same being. This is also, as I said, a big part of why I don’t believe Outer God = extrinsic to reality, because the Frenzied Flame is a being deeply linked to the creation of the universe (or at least of life).
Overall I’d actually say the question of whether the Greater Will is an Outer God or not is ultimately semantic. What matters more is that it’s a being deeply intrinsic to the creation of the universe and existence of life, not some sort of malevolent alien invader like a lot of people seem to believe it is. I think the problem here is people trying to apply the framework of the story of the Dark games, where all the holy/divine stuff was a stagnant power structure that was literally killing the world to try and preserve itself, despite that narrative not really being present in ER. People have a lot of bizarre ideas about the Greater Will in general - I've had people yell at me for claiming it created life (even though that's directly told to us), and then the same people turn around and insist that the Greater Will beams commands into Marika's head like a robot (making it responsible for all of her misdeeds, or even the misdeeds of human society as a whole like the persecution of Omens). People have formed conceptions of what the Greater Will is and does based on literally nothing rather than interpreting what’s in the game.
The way I got excited when I saw you got a sponsor for this video. I'm so glad!!! You deserve it for the amount of effort you put into these videos 🙏
Thank you so much as always Mio! Your support is super appreciated
I subscribed to your channel because of Blasphemous lore videos ages ago and I’m so pleased to see how your channel grew in scope and quality. Your videos on Elden Ring lore are very thorough and well made and you always give credit when due. Keep doing this awesome job!
Awesome! Thanks so much for the long term support, it is very much appreciated
Crazy how in depth Elden ring lore is getting, just seems to keep unfolding more and more
HE WAS FUCKIN RIGHT
How 🤔
Yet another banger video! I’m taking plenty of notes so that I’m ready for the final exam.
In all seriousness I’m both impressed and intimidated by the lore community. On one hand it makes me wanna try making lore videos of my own, but on the other hand I doubt I’ll ever reach the supreme quality like I see here.
Incredible work as always, Smough! Can’t wait for the next one!
Thank you dude!
Very sweet topic, reminiscent of Greek mythos and the hierarchy of Gods, the difference between Heracles and the Titans. Also axolotl is spelled with "L"s :) a neat fish with legs!
My favorite part about your lore videos is not only do you make amazing videos but you’re the only elden ring lore TH-camr that interacts with the wider community. Without fail every video of yours recommends me new TH-camrs who I end up Ioveing. Without you I would never have found the last protagonist, Tarnished Archelogist, or red book.
Thanks so much dude, really appreciate that and so happy you have checked out some of those channels!
Awesome video. The connection with the dragons to the GW is really cool. Btw, I believe in the game files the Elden Beast is referred to as the "NebulaDragon." If that's true then that provides even more evidence of your point that the Dragons were made in the GW's image.
Always pleased to see a new video of yours in my feed. Very well made and informative, thanks Smough!
Thank you so much for the support!
Linking the god-skin nobles to ball shaving is some real good advertising. I can't not see them in a different light anymore and I'm not scared anymore. Great stuff!
Hahaah Excellent!
This is by far the highest quality elden ring lore videos I’ve found on TH-cam! Excellent job! Thank you for making this for us tarnished!
Doodmanguy no longer exists..
It's so simple! The Two Fingers guide standard Tarnished while the Three Fingers accepts those who use their middle fingers for the shoulder buttons and save their index fingers for the face buttons (the thumbs are reserved for joysticks of course). Whenever I have to use a consumable I certainly feel the Frenzy growing within me.
But seriously remember the Three Fingers evolved their third finger because they lacked a Finger Reader but they still had plenty to say.
The idea that the Outer Gods come from a real beyond ours and all that also work REALLY WELL with H.P. Lovecraft lore which the guys at From Soft REALLY like to take inspiration from (seriously the amount of reference to Lovecraft’s stories in Bloodborne is insane).
And example is the Formless mother: it’s pretty obvious they took inspiration from Shub-Niggurath.
SHUB-WHATT lmaao
@@therealpoohvati he just named it after his cat
@@camogecko456 She’s also the called the “Black Goat of the Woods.” 🤷
WOOOO!!! More incredible lore for me to listen to at work! Your videos really help the days go by faster. Love your content man. Yours is a channel I frequently come back to in order to watch videos again.
Thank you so much! I really appreciate the support, and glad my content helps you through your days!
Damn only a few minutes in and im a little more than compelled. I cannot wait to get further. Im gunna give a full update of what i think. I tend to forget to do that
Bro: 25:19 when you call the frenzy flame a posturing god. It makes so much sense, “come here lemme hug ya and show you the way” type feeling
30:00 BOY YOU ARE SAUCING HERE
What i really love of the creation power of the greater will, it seems it created a little too well lol made every thing very powerful
Awesome! Enjoy dude!
Spoilers for persona 3, discussion of the inherent horrors of the human biological condition.
I like the physical/tactile nature of elden ring's cosmology a lot.
The scarlet rot is slimy and pokey, and crumbly and crunchy, it's pools of blood and sprouting fungi and bugs.
The stars are stones, minerals.
The Frenzied flame is pain, the aching of agony in all it's forms, and the completely understandable desire to be freed of that pain in the worst way possible.
And the greater will is radio static! Like the cosmic aftershocks of the big bang.
The two fingers are much like the antennae of radio receptors and old televisions, and Iji wears a reflective helmet to bounce off the influence of the greater will, like a faraday cage.
And there's also a connection between the more destructive outer gods and disease/parasitism/pregnancy.
Similar to another game, persona 3, where the protagonist's mind/soul is basically pregnant with the god of death, who will eventually consume all life/the world; the player character of elden ring, as well as Millicent, and Malenia become carriers of respectively, the frenzied flame and scarlet rot, which eventually consumes their previous forms and bursts forth into the world, changing them permanently.
(Similarly, Marika and Radagon have part of their abdomen replaced with the elden ring.)
And this allegory is lended credence by Miquella's needle, which resembles an IUD* in both form and function.
And then we have the formless mother, who manifests power and comfort for mohg, via her own injury, much like a mother accepting risks to her own health in order to give birth to her child, and parents more generally accepting risk and injury in order to keep their children safe and healthy.
Which is contrasted with Marika, who cast Mohg aside, and essentially encouraged her children to go to war with one another without saying it directly. Basically an anti-mother.
And Radagon, who abandoned his loving wife Rennala and possibly their children, to be with Marika at her command, basically an anti-father.
The world of elden ring makes sense in a very visceral way, it's like:
People like Rya and Boggart and Marika and so on, I've met them or heard of them.
*[a surgically implanted device which can cause serious harm, which is able to prevent pregnancies from forming, but which is less effective/safe than using, say, a condom, or having other types of surgery, due to the risks involved if pregnancy occurs regardless, which can happen. for this metaphor it is mostly important to note that implanting miquella's needle causes you injury, much like a surgury does, to help keep you from "giving birth" to an outer god and destroying your life as you know it, similar to (but distinct from) how pregnancy and childrearing can upset the trajectory of ones' life quite dramatically]
You time your videos perfectly for when I’m about to sleep~
More bedtime stories to lead into my dreams
Sleep well
@@SmoughTown aww that's wholesome
Seriously great work dude. I listened to this video, audio only yesterday while I ran errands, then last night I was flipping through my TH-cam feed, I popped it on again to get the b-roll and full experience. Never did that before with such a hefty lore vid. 👏 👏
Hey Matt, honestly that is so nice to hear and it's my pleasure to keep making this type of content. Seriously hearing this made my day!
Before watching the video. I think the Greater Will is moreso something that allows its vessel to rule by of which order they deserve, evident by Miquella and Malenia's curse. I dont think the GW truly cares of which curse is shape or form they are, it only cares about how its creation can interact and how they rule. I also dont think the GW never forseen the shattering. I think he foresaw it since it IS Marika's order of which the GW gave her the rule.
Edit: I quite agree with a lot of things, however, I disagree with the Gteater Will being an internal one. I do think it is an outer ome evident by the many Erdtrees we find when fighting the Elden Beast. As you said, it towers above all these outer deities, but it makes sense not it would be an internal one. I think not. I think it is a powerful outer one but in a different power level higher than the outer ones.
As always, great videos!
Malenia and Miquella are cursed because they were born, nothing to do with what they deserve. Marika and Radagon have separate minds but the same body. Same body, same DNA. Both the Fextralife and Wiki state that Miquella's infantile body and Malenia's Rot are in fact because they were born from a single god. Meaning they're literally asexual inbreds. Maybe for whatever reason, two of the most reputable sources for unbiased game lore are lying. Because this fact would basically debunk almost everything we know about Scarlet Rot, but most importantly is the fact that it implies that there is no Outer God of Rot like both websites and a ton of stuff in game says there is, or that if there is an Outer God of Rot that means that since Malenia is the child of Marika/Radagon, who is the vessel of the Elden Beast/Elden Ring, who itself is the host of the Greater Will, that would mean the Greater Will can straight up create other Outer Gods.
See I think that the argument to be made for the Greater Will being an outer god-like being is as follows: The Lands Between is one of many lands. There are the badlands, the land of reeds, Fia's homeland, etc. From what we know, these are governed by different rules or God's, such as the land of reeds having a blood madness (either from the blood star, formless mother, Frenzied Flame, or something else entirely). We also know from the Confessor set that the Golden Order has envoys outside of the Lands Between, outside of the main land of Erd Tree & Marika worship. So basically, what I'm picturing is each Outer God having their territory, which they squabble over, reshaping life in its own way (rot, frenzy, corrupt, etc). Maybe the Greater Will converged the old life into the One Great before creating life of its own (Regression and Causality)?
I am surprised that no one has considered that all the known outer gods, Greater Will and Frenzied Flame included might just be a singular being manipulating mortals for it's own amusement, that or they are all just fragments of the fractured One Great.
God?
The ulcerated tree spirits also have a golden fire breath, it’s a nice detail that further links the golden flame to the greater will and the erdtree
I think the "one great" is something similar to DS1's world before the First Flame, a world with no disparity, where everything was "uniformed", grey, unchanging, and the "mistake" Hyetta talks about isn't necessarily a mistake, but it might be what the Frenzied Flame outer god sees it as: The GW creating life and the world as we know it, replacing the one with no disparity that was before, was seen as a "mistake" by the FF outer god, who preferred that previous world to the GW's one.
I think the two and three fingers juxtaposition is supposed to invoke a whole hand undeniably, but not to suggest that they were literally physically joined at one point. Rather I think it's just to illustrate the artificiality of the Golden Order. That parts of the greater whole have been figuratively cut off and pruned, discarding the chaotic and unsavory elements of the greater whole.
27:34 What I don't understand is why if the Greater Will created the life in the Lands Between did it wait so long before making its presence felt? We know entire ages passed before it tried to enact it's order from the tree before the Erdtree, the age of Dragons, the age of the Giants etc. Why would it create life that it then opposed? So idk if I agree that the Greater Will created ALL life, maybe just some of it.
As always your videos make my morning routine, having to watch them over 3 days only makes me feel like I have more Smoughtown content to watch!
The close connection of dragons with the greater will, made me think that if on that age fingers didn't exist, and given the position of placidusax, being fairly reminiscent of the upright "communing" position of the two fingers, thinking that dragons directly communed with the Greater Will feels like it makes perfect sense.
How do we know the Greater Will isn't influencing/preventing other unknown outer god arrivals in the lands between? Also why would the GW allow other beings to enter it's domain w/o obstruction?
Is the GW the alchemist in all this?
This is my second comment, but after relistenting. Im not sure the Greater Will created anything. Hyetta says the One Great fractures, and from it came souls and births. That doesn't say the greater will did it. She then immediately goes on to say, "But the greater will made a mistake,"
The wording and the name GREATER Will makes it sound like it came or was born from the fracture and that like a shards from a broken glass it used that fracture to create its own lives.
The name GREATER Will also sounds like it was the largest of the fragments from the One Great that has established control and order.
The greater will is only a "one true god" figure to its believers, and the lore is written from that perspective. It might even come from Marika's tablets in her bedchamber.
It's very common for stories to borrow pieces of religion/mythology to add texture or touchstones for the audience to connect with the theming. That doesn't mean the story is literally true to that piece of literature. Elden Ring also borrows heavily from norse and greek myths, but the story isn't literally about ragnarok or zeus.
The GW is not inherently doing anything more special than the other gods by ordering matter/energy into life as we see it in the mortal realm. The deathbird god seems to hold sway over the afterlife, while the frenzied flame is quite alike the chaotic origins of our universe and the big bang, or in the churning of stars that create all of the elements. The lands between could be said to exist between these two realms of that universe, and the mortal realm could be said to exist as an tiny blip on the cosmic scale. Completing this picture, rot embodies an alien iteration of life. We may deem it less meaningful from our human-centric perspective, but the meaning we hold in our minds does not translate to a universe that is largely beyond our control.
My interpretation of the greater will is in the name. It is the collective embodiment of the ideas and wills of sentient life in the realm. This god does not create life per se, but rather is intrinsic to intelligent life specifically. This makes sense given the more bestial origins and the hints at evolutionary advancement with five-fingered hands "granted by the greater will" and how the power of this intelligence is written in runes (literature).
I find it interesting that the elden beast is depicted as golden neurons while the rest of its body is almost incorporeal starry void. The ceiling of its arena is also a starry night with erdtree pillars extending upwards towards it. It's almost like this god once seen behind the curtain is drawing its power from the primeval current, just like everything else ultimately does.
Great points Nick, thank you
If the 3 fingers and 2 fingers were together as one, wouldnt that resemble order and chaos? That would fit nicely.
Interesting take. While I’m not against the idea of the Greater Will being something greater or different than the Outer Gods, I can’t currently agree, or at least can’t agree that the Greater Will was always superior or different. Rather, I believe if it did in fact become greater than the Outer Gods it only did so by taking part in the creation of life.
I believe the Greater Will was the first to get its hand on the Lands Between, via its Vassal which became the Elden Ring. In this case, the Greater Will’s potency comes from it having acted first, taking dominion over a process any Outer God could have started. It might not have as explicit medium of influence because it became internal to life, all life traces back to its division - the Greater Will’s influence. Even so, I’d argue you can see its influence spread through gold. The closer you get to the Erdtree, the more gold the plant life gets, becoming metallic near the Elden Throne. The Altus Plateau, while not as wildly deformed as Caelid or Mohg’s swamp, shows evidence of a physical influence.
You also mention how the orders of the Outer Gods mimic the Greater Will’s, having lords and gods, etc. However, I’d argue that it might show peers rather than a definitive imitation or perversion. Perhaps the order of gods and lords are intrinsic to Outer Gods. The Outer Gods each lack pieces of this order, (i.e the Rot God has no Lord, the Formless Mother has no known Vassal, the Death Bird’s god has only a Vassal) because they are unable to fully contend with the Greater Will in its own domain (how far the Greater Will has abandoned us is debatable if it has at all, and so the Lands between may still be protected somewhat). The Outer Gods therefore take meek forms, having incomplete orders without the necessary rulers. The Outer Gods also manifest influences uniquely positioned to affect the Erdtree (or any tree): Bloodflame, Frenzied Flame, Death Flame, the only one to not have a ‘flame’, is sealed, possibly before the Erdtree full dominance. Rather than attaching themselves to the Erdtree’s order, the Outer Gods seem more likely to burn it down, the Chaos Flame going so far as to melt all life back into one, undoing much of the Greater Will’s work.
I believe the Greater Will created life, the Beastmen and Ancient Dragons and all else that follows, but I believe the Ancient Dragons being overturned shows that the Greater Will was threatened. It was not without competition, at risk of being cast out from the world it had created. The age of the Erdtree sees the rollout of a new order, and sees the taming of many threats, the Fire Giants included. It assumed a more ironclad (or goldclad) control, perhaps because it knew it was not so absolute, that other gods could become internal to life in the Lands Between.
Regardless, great video. Glad to see reevaluations of ideas we take as definitively true even though they are not explicit.
Thanks for the thoughtful comment Elijah! It 100% is just a theory/speculation on my part - I think most of all the part of the theory I am most 'keen on' is the fact the Outer Gods are 'outer' because they are external to this world, where as the GW is more closely tied to this plane of existence.
@@SmoughTown I share more or less the same sentiments after this video.
With your previous video talking about the Ancient Dragons, I wonder if Placidusax wasn’t sort of the precursor to the Two fingers, being able to commune with the Greater Will himself. Many have pointed out the pose he’s found in bears a resemblance to the Two Finger’s in communion. While I’d agree with you that the fled god in his description is likely more akin to someone in Marika’s position than an Outer God, I also wouldn’t be surprised if Placidusax is in communion when we find him. That the Dragonlord, having been beaten and dethroned, attempts to commune with the Greater Will in hopes of having its favour once more. The Two Fingers would play the role that Placidusax was once able to play himself to the Erdtree’s dynasty, humans not being able to directly receive the Greater Will’s words as Placidusax may have been able to. Basically, a division of the role of Elden Lord and Herald of the Greater Will’s words.
@@SmoughTownit takes forever for the envoy two fingers to get communication from the GW tho, by the words Enia used to inform us, it suggests that the GW is far away from the lands between.
Dude I could spend all day listening to you explain how Wendy’s napkins and ketchup cups are manufactured.
The idea that the greater will doesn’t really care what form order takes does make sense. I’ve always wondered why the 2 fingers, those who bear the message of the Greater Will suddenly became silent at the most crucial moment. Ik Enja said the 2 fingers are convening with the Greater Will and that will take thousands of years, but why now out of all time? Right when we’ve reached the foot of the erd tree, about to seek audience with the Elden Ring, does it decide to go silent?
Makes me believe the Greater Will saw this, and decided that rather it enacts its will telling us what to do at that moment, it wanted us to decide for ourselves what form order should take.
Been a fan of SmoughTown since I got into Elden ring. Put off this very video for a good while, so I could listen at a good time. I’ve been a Tolkien fan for a long while. The Tolkien references make me which I could like and subscribe twice. Good work
Thanks Billy, your support means the world
Goddamn these Elden Ring lore videos really have been so entertaining and enlightening to watch, I wholeheartedly recommend to watch these in chronological order, lest thou miss out on the ever growing understanding of the lore and world from ER, that SmoughTown undoubtedly acquired, and trough him all that who we are watching. His takes evolved with every new highlighted aspect, region and clan, and even though these Videos are so immensely enjoyable as is, i feel like treating this as a lore series on Netflix really does equip you with a experience like no other. Through him and other great ER connoisseur's such as Hawkshaw and Crunchy, my mind feels like its ever expanding every time a new Aspect of the World like for e.g. the Parfumers are Highlighted and explained. What I'm trying to say is that everything in this game is so interwoven, that every time you get a good understanding for a new region or clan like Leyndell and the Carian's, the real story of the game gets revealed, i believe that we will only really understand ER once we have the whole picture. Also dig into Elden Ring Archeologist's and Queelag's stuff, they are SO undervalued but they make A+ content
I agree with all the channels recommended here!
@@SmoughTown Mad respect for all the Shoutouts you did in this video, really shows how much of a lore junk you are, i would know because i did also watch everything you mentioned xD anyways its great to see anyone talk about Sinclair Lore. And Doog Man Guy! Absolute Gem when it comes to the things the Game really definetly tryes to say. Also A+ youtuber work for Linking so many Videos
@@ozsun9736 Hahah you know it! Thanks so much fellow lore hunter! (and yes DoogManGuy is stellar)
I feel like a lot of people have brought up the idea of The One Great and its connecting to being all of life and possibly the crucible, the "outer gods are just gods who lost" idea, and the "One great gives more prevalence to the 2 and 3 fingers making 5" idea, but another thing that I think makes sense for Two and Three fingers once being 5 is that it works well with the Law of Regressions and Causality idea. We see Regression a lot with it a lot in their being pairs like the many twins or most strongly with the two being one of Radagon and Marika, so I think from that it could point that the idea of 2 and 3 fingers having once been converged into 5 as having some more merit as then even the order's highest beings had once been faced with convergence into one.
Also separate from above, a theory for why there can be multiple two fingers but one three fingers is that they're all just envoys. Now for some complete speculation: We know that fingers are capable of being killed, and as such then other three fingers may have been killed if not tucked away somewhere else. I doubt that the order would want to just leave them around. Also another complete wild theory is that there may have once been multiple three fingers, or at the very least two. We see from the Three fingers cutscene that when the three fingers burn they possibly burn into the person, or burn to nothingness as they hold you. Since we've seen Vyke have the same marks from his armor its possible that a second three fingers may have become part of him. There's also just the chance that these envoys are simply symbols for them. With the frenzied flame and greater will possibly being part of The One Great, it could simply be that since Greated WIll took 2 fingers as its symbol, there flame took 3 to still show they make a hand as they want to return them into being just as all one as they were during The One Great era.
The first part I think is stronger from the themes, and the 2nd is more just some wild speculation but I at least thought it interesting enough to say.
Smough great vid as always. You and TA touched on an interesting idea in the "Life and Order" chapter. Are people born from the Erdtree? Personally, I believe not. There are quite a few familial ties in ER that may contradict this. The Carian demigods, Boc the Demi Human, the Brothers of House Hoslow. Most importantly, the existence of Omen and the Dung Eater. They're all born rather than created but their souls cannot return to the erdtree. By that logic, doesn't seem like the Erdtree is capable of "birthing" omen. Something else to consider is that at least in terms of actual plants, the Erdtree already births its own offspring in Golden Seeds and Minor Erdtrees
Absolutely and I believe that TA considers that both can be true; that people can be 'born from mothers' and from the Erdtree
Thank you SO MUCH for pointing out the problem with the idea of the three and two fingers once being one. Ive been questioning it for so long because of just how many two fingers there are. Awesome video as always!
I think there are a few widely held ‘assumptions’ and I felt the need to tackle them because that’s all they are! Thank you!
This is such an excellent breakdown of the evidence and lore, well done! However, I must say I disagree with the conclusion. Instead of the Greater Will as the Supreme, I believe the evidence simply points to it being the First, as in, the First to have a go at moulding the world in its image. I contest the idea that it has the power to create. If anything, it's just using the sand in a sandbox to build a castle. If another outer god had gotten there first, then it would have enacted its own designs.
As far as the linguistic differences go, my personal interpretation is that they merely serve to distinguish the specific relationship between the mortal characters and the Greater Will. The Greater Will is the one in charge in this particular iteration of the world while the other gods are, by default, outsiders, which explains why they would be referred to with different phrasing.
Thanks so much Emily! And ultimately I do agree - that the Greater Will could be the 'same' as the outer gods but is not 'outer' because of its connection to the world
literally this exactly
I feel as if the Outer Gods are referenced as such because they were apart of a polytheistic Pantheon worshipped prior to the Greater Will which is Mirrored in when Rome converted to Christianity.
I think the god connection to the greater will is there for the historical meta narrative. The greater will doesnt really make anything new, considering how they have the magic life smelting pot covered in their golden fungus. I'm pretty sure the only difference the greater will has to the outer gods is that they "won". Or maybe The One Great was a collective of outer gods that the greater will shattered by making a power grab in the lands between, forcing the other gods to try and catch up.
If you look at the dialogue from the various Frenzied Flame adjacent NPCs, your last sentence seems pretty likely. They blame the sin of suffering on The Greater Will. But Shabriri specifically blames it for "division and distinction." That's the crux of the issue. We know that the demi-gods of The Lands Between can be divided, or cracked. See, Millicent. She's an offshoot/sister/daughter of Malenia. A part of the elder god who has been divided apart. Now, division is fine. The new thing is basically identical, in whole or part, to it's greater part. But then comes distinction. When it becomes it's own, unique being complete with it's own desires and opinions. If you side with Millicent at the end of her questline, this is exactly what you see. She chooses to die Millicent rather than return to being part of Malenia.
Given that The Greater Will is SPECIFICALLY blamed by Shabriri for the sin of division and distinction, it is very likely that The Greater Will is the FIRST DISTINCTION. A piece of the One Great that was either willfully divided or broken off, but which then became it's own entity and now seeks to both ensure it's own existence and to supplant it's creator as the supreme master of creation. In essence, what we see among the Outer Gods is a Shattering which mirrors the war in The Lands Between amongst the demigods. The broken, but now distinct pieces of what was once the One Great warring amongst themselves to become supreme (and in The Greater Will's case, I would argue to become a new kind of One Great at the end of things).
Now, where things get really trippy is when you consider that Radagon is Marika. Same idea. Radagon was once a splinter from Marika, but then he became something new. Something very, very different from her. But he too seeks to replace his creator at the head of the natural order. It all rhymes. All of it.
As an aside, I think the Frenzied Flame is basically the player avatar in this great game of Outer Gods for what used to be The One Great. It is the equivalent to Melina. An agent placed into the game to attempt to affect a specific outcome. So, essentially, Shabriri is the One Great's Melina. A guide, trying to bring about it's desired ending. Just as Melina seeks, seemingly on Marika's direction, to crush the dreams and hopes of Radagon and The Greater Will.