I was too busy, and to tell the truth, too pissed off, to say anything when I first heard it. I assumed it had to be just a typo/misspeak, and glad to see it was a priority to correct
There is not an actor ever born who could have brought Saruman to life better than Christopher Lee. Everything from his height and appearance, to his commanding presence and amazing voice, were perfect. Add to that his knowledge and reverence with regard to the source material, and there's just no question. The man was made to play Saruman, and I will always be glad he did.
I feel the same about Ian McKellen as Gandalf, he is perfect. I might've read somewhere that Lee wanted to play Gandalf, and though I'm sure he would've made it work, I'm glad we ended up with the castings we got for those 2 wizards
beautiful. absolutely! Unchecked power breeds arrogance, arrogance pride, and pride an absence of humility. And we know how those without humility fare in middle earth 😂😂
I’ve noticed that Christopher Lee had a knack for playing noble characters who had fallen. Dracula, Saruman, Count Dooku All were men who were proud and sought something just out of their reach and something turned in them which they decided they were no longer bound by what limitations society and/or perceived that held them back prior. They will achieve their goal, even if it means reaching forth and touching the darkness You see? This is the perfect scenario of what the Rings of Power should’ve done as Saruman and even the Nazgûl did the same thing. Instead of Galadriel they should’ve followed Saruman.
One could say his fall was inevitable. He was always proud and impatient. He desired order and efficiency because he felt he was uniquely qualified to bring that and what is more inefficient than different free peoples all pursuing their own agendas at cross-purposes?
@@florbfnarb7099 not really, circumstances and nature can make an outcome effectively predetermined. Does the individual make a choice? Yes, but within the context of their personality, their characteristics, nature and the setting how much of that is choice and how much is following the natural course of events?
@@grandadmiralzaarin4962 - People are able to resist the natural course of events. People who brutalize others are not compelled to do so unless their mind is so far gone they have no control over themselves at all - and even then, there have no doubt been people in those circumstances who, in a moment of understanding their actions, have killed themselves to avoid harming anyone in the future. People who commit armed robbery are not compelled to do so. People who murder aren't compelled to do so. And angelic beings in the guise of old men who attempt to conquer the world aren't compelled to do so; they could refuse. They're simply giving in to their own wrong desires.
@@florbfnarb7099 from your point of view. Yet we have examples of mental and psychological illness that does in fact compel individuals. Particularly in Tolkien's works, where Morgoth's entire personality, arrogance and destruction are literally stated as derived from Eru. With Saruman and Sauron both we have a desire for order, control and yes, even betterment that starts their corruption before it is finalized through their personality traits and compulsion from someone more powerful than themselves. Again we see this literally after Sauron won the contest of wills with Saruman in the palantir. Characters that do evil do not see themselves as evil, particularly in the case of Sauron and Saruman, they see their actions as ends justifying the means, and over time those become increasingly more drastic and self serving until they're unrecognizable. There's also the entire debate on morality and ethics being subjective in nature, which further undermines your argument for the 'choice' factor being black and white.
@@grandadmiralzaarin4962 Melkor wasn't compelled to become evil either. He was willing to do so for the sake of his own power. Same for Sauron and Saruman; none of them were compelled agains their will to do the things they did. And there's nothing subjective about morality as such, much as men might debate the details; murder is simply wrong, and so forth. Of course none of them considered themselves evil; almost nobody does. But that doesn't mean they aren't; they can mean good at first and still do evil through arrogance and a willingness to use means they have no right to use.
Not Cirdan's fault. Especially considering that the information on Saruman knowing about the ring is left out of LOTR. A number of the Maiar joined with Morgoth previously, so it is not unlikely that the pull of power and greed would infect on such as Curumo as well. In fact, I suspect that Curumo/Saruman likely felt that he was smarter that Sauron and would be able to achieve greater power through his cleverness and deceit. Just a thought...
Not Cirdan's fault; there were other ways he could've handled not getting a gift, like proving he could be a wise cool mega wizard without a trinket... a prideful approach as an example. Saruman's choices are his own, his lack of perspective as well
I wonder if perhaps Eru gave Cirdan a brief moment of “enlightened insight” (even by Elven standards) when Gandalf came from sea. Similar instances in the books: On the slopes of Mount Doom, Sam sees a physical manifestation of the forces good and of the ring when Frodo casts his prophecy to Gollum. Another instance (though Frodo is wearing the ring and thus in the ‘realm between the two realms’) was when Frodo sees Glorfindel as he is on the other side at the ford fighting off the Nazgul. I wonder if a similar situation happened where Eru gave Cirdan - and only Cirdan - a heightened level of insight to his great plans and why he would need Cirdan to stay in middle earth with great patience and he should give such a great ring this seemingly feeblest of the great beings to come across. Eru showed him that actually held more power than the rest. I know Tolkien hated allegory, but I can’t help but compare it to having a gut instinct on the humble underdog rather than the cocky title defender. Saruman was hungry; Gandalf was humble. Even cloaked in their wisest of appearances, even though their intentions may have been purest when stepping off the boat, I wonder if Eru trusted Cirdan with this most detailed foresight given to any being originally of middle earth so that he would never waiver in waiting for literal Ages. Just a fun idea lol
Nobody else could be blame for Saruman’s. His personality made him naturally susceptible to corruption, he was too eager to test himself against Sauron, which led him down many paths which all come out to the same conclusion, Sauron couldn’t be defeated by strength, unless you used the one ring.
It can be argued that it was because only it fostered immediate ill will and distrust with him and the elves as well as caused a rift between him and Gandalf. Although....his character flaws ie his pride and ego in being the leader of the "wise " made this moment one that would instantly offend and therefore push him onto the road he ended on in a potential effort to prove others wrong..... The road to hell is paved with good intentions after all.
Saruman, being a Maia, did not truly die. His spirit separated from his body much like his master Sauron's after the Downfall of Numenor. As an incorporeal spirit, he should have been called to the Halls of Mandos, but the tale implies that he was barred from returning. Tolkien indicated that his spirit was left naked, powerless and wandering, never to return to Middle-earth: "Whereas Curunir was cast down, and utterly humbled, and perished at last by the hand of an oppressed slave; and his spirit went whither-soever it was doomed to go, and to Middle-earth, whether naked or embodied, came never back." -- Saruman's fate
It was not Cirdan's fault. Saruman was proud from the beginning, and this pride only grew in him through time, the nobler Gandalf became. Saruman coveted the power which Gandalf did not want, but wielded nonetheless. In his research Saruman "delved too greedily and too deep", until there came a time when he could no longer hide his jealousy.of Gandalf.
I always saw Saruman as a villain you love to hate. Sauron is just so terrifying and serious, it’s nice seeing a villain that’s entertainingly unlikeable while still a serious threat. He’s jealous, greedy, spiteful, petty, selfish, and short tempered. He tried to take over the world because he was salty about Gandalf being more popular than him. When he escapes Orthanc, the first thing he does is become a crime boss and takeover the Shire, purely out of spite. Frodo offers to let him go, Saruman responds by trying to stab him. Any and every chance he was given to redeem himself and become better, he smacked away. He’s just a heinous person. There’s also the whole feeding people to his orcs thing.
I don't think he was evil at the start. He was, I believe, more hungry for power and seeked out for all possible things to gain as much power as possible. His jealous nature probaply didn't aid him to influence everybody. And it probaply also didn't aid him in his thinking and choice making. He turned evil. And his choices, actions and jealous nature aided in becoming evil.
Not Cirdan’s fault. Even by being jealous of Gandalf Saruman still could have worked with him for the greater good. And remember even before Cirdan, Gandalf was also manwe’s personal choice to be one of the istari. The King of the Valar chose Olorin, not curumo, as his personal favorite to go. Saruman was jealous of Gandalf long before the ring was given.
It was NOT Círdan's fault. Curumo had always been arrogant and self-important, thinking himself above taking along Aiwendil on his journey to Middle Earth, so it stands to reason that he would be filled with spite if someone other than himself was given such a great and powerful gift as the ring of fire Narya.
I think that fault was in attitude to Saruman. Imagine that you are the the most powerful and clever wizard, but all attention is given to your less skilfull colleague...
I don’t think cirdan caused Saruman to fall. He was already jealous before he arrived in middle earth and he continues to be king after. He seeks power to prove that he didn’t need Gandalf and it causes him to fall.
I wouldn't say Tolkien only had strictly good and strictly evil characters. There are a few gray characters in the novels and movies. Denethor, Boromir, Smeagol/Gollum, Saruman I'm sure there are others, but I'm working on 3 hours sleep today so....
Absolutely not Cirdan's fault. It says that Saruman was proud and impatient, not a good mix. When or how he discovered Gandalf had Narya is not known, but in his pride it would have made him envious and jealous.
Not cirdans fault since tolkein seems to like to make those forgers the most rebellious since the beginning when Aule created the dwarves without permission from Eru to Feanor with the silmarils and then Sauron and celebrimbor with the rings of power, it just seems that forgers and workers of metal are the most flawed in the legendarium
I think honest Kirdan unknowingly or knowingly dodged a bullet. When Gandalf meets Saurman in LotR how does he identify himself? He says and i qoute "For i am Saruman the wise, Saruman Ringmaker, Saruman of many colors." Ringmaker and Gandalf even says he saw a ring on Saruman´s finger. Saruman was able to make a lesser ring of power without having an actual ring to study... What do you think would have happened if Saruman got a hold of one of the three elven rings? How long would it take him to decode their making and copy their design for his own gains? My bet is not long, in fact Tolkien eludes to this in one of his letters. If the enemy had just captured Sauron, allowing Saruman access to Mordor, it wouldn´t have been long before he would have found the last pieces of missing lore and be able to craft a master ring of his own. So again Saruman not having access to one the Elven Rings, might just have saved Middle Earth the coming of a second dark lord. Though it would be an interesting what if scenario, if Saruman had been able to make a master ring of his own before the fall of Sauron, could he actually have competed directly against Sauron in strength of would Sauron have crushed him?
Brilliant, I wished they would make a Lord of the Rings: What If? kind of short story or comic book where Saruman gets hold of the ring-lore from Mordor, makes a second master ring, and becomes a rival Dark Lord...I imagine one would try to kill the other eventually, but no matter who wins Middle Earth would certainly lose lol...
One correction. Fatty Bulger wasn't on Saruman's side, he was a rebel leader after the Shire was taken over. It was Frodo's cousin who was manipulated by Saruman.
I wouldn't so much say that it's Cirdan's fault as much as his responsibility. It may have ended up being a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy. One of the properties of the Ring was to restore and hope and courage. It may have been what kept Gandalf from succumbing to the despair of fighting against Sauron and joining him as Saruman did.
Dang, good point! Though I like to think Gandalf's resolve and empathy for the peoples/creatures of Middle Earth would have kept strong even without Narya(but who knows!?). Fun to think about either way, for sure.
I am curious as to what happened to Saruman's rings of power. The other 19 lesser rings were tied to the One Ring. Their power diminished with its destruction. Were Saruman's rings equally tied? If he was only able to uncover Sauron or Celebrimbor's methods of crafting Rings of Power, then it's likely they too would have lost their power after the One Ring was destroyed. But if Saruman figured out how to avoid that, then what happened to these mighty weapons? Or was it just one more ring? Did Gandalf take it back to the Undying Lands to prevent it from being used for evil?
IMO its not Cirdan’s fault. You can’t, eve with one ring force traits on a characters, that arent already there. It reminds of Maia who became balrogs- they weren’t turned by force, they had evil in them before
I do NOT think it was Cirdan’s fault. Whilst in his pure Maiar form, I believe Curumo had more strength and sense of purpose toward his mission and fully expected to fulfill it. However, as others mentioned, I think he always had that spark of desire for order and the overconfidence that he could be the leader to enforce it. It isn’t an impossibility, seeing how others of their kind harbored jealousy and desire for power greater than they’d been granted & therefore turned to evil. I do feel only the seeds of that and any ill will toward Olórin probably began even then, though perhaps not consciously. I just feel like maybe he thought Gandalf had humility and wasn’t always confident, plus kind of “towed the company line” without complaint or ambition & Saruman likely saw that as a weakness & someone who was more follower than wise leader. Yet, he observed Gandalf getting approval and recognition for these traits. At the time he may even have just thought it misplaced. However, it feels like this and his other inherent characteristics only grew larger and darker over time once they were ensconced in a more human form, with almost all our weaknesses in body and character. Especially, when the same treatment of Gandalf being more trusted and revered continued in various forms among these beings he probably considered much lesser. He most likely tried to brush them aside for a long time, figuring these creatures don’t know any better. But, it slowly festered and grew & seeing that his rival, Sauron, was proving more formidable than he previously thought, he started recalling how things had been much the same before they came to Middle Earth. Maybe he started thinking Sauron had the right idea, accumulating power and trying to mold things the way he saw fit. He definitely wouldn’t have respected Sauron enough to really “join” with him, as he, himself was still up top in line for such a position. But, I feel he always believed he was up to the task of using Sauron’s methods against him to claim all that he desired and felt he deserved. He probably found it convenient that Sauron looked like he was on the winning end & that he should, therefore, exploit it. You can still see the conflict within him when he makes a last ditch effort to get Gandalf to go along with that “joining.” I wonder if being himself, trying to rise and achieve wonders, plus not being 100% evil was a lonely place, but one he was willing to forego company in if it must needs be. I also think some fear and desperation creeped in at the end there that made him doubt his confidence at last and gave him the final push to become fully entrenched in the dark path. An ignoble end (both in book & film) for one who started out do mighty and bright and full of potential.
Firstly, thank you for taking the time to leave such an awesome comment!! And I agree, Saruman may have done evil, but I do believe that he always believed it was the ‘right’ reasons!
Who says it was "easily" though? He was incarnated for thousands of years. Who knows what evil we might be tempted into in that much time? We get up to plenty enough evil in our eighty years as it is.
My second favorite wizard. I always wanted him to have more scenes in books and movies. Hopefully there will be something done soon with him, Gandalf and other wizards when they were younger.
My thoughts on Saruman: I think the fault lies with the Valar. In choosing to give the Astari the forms of men, I think they also gave them the failings of them. That, when forced through the filter of a man, their thoughts and deeds were colored by that filter.
The reaction to the ring of power being given to Gandalf only revealed Saruman's lack of character and character faults. His fall already happened... Same as the law of God reveals our fall, and why we need to repent and accept Jesus Christ as savior.
20:20 Just a little mistake, you said saruman, Fatty Bolger, and a band of ruffians were responsible for what happened. I think you probably meant Lotho? Maybe Ted Sandyman?
@@TheBrokenSword thanks! It makes sense though, it's honestly surprising you don't make more mistakes then you do with so many names, and so many similar sounding names, anyway love the content dawg keep it up!
@@illuin__ Hey Eric, great catch! There was an earlier line in the video that was cut that might have spared us a lot of the "Not Cirdan's fault!" comments you see up and down the page. The point was, for Saruman it is never his own fault, but that of other's, he let those kinds of slights be justifications for his own terrible actions. thanks for watching the entire video! Lotho is correct, sorry for missing that. These scripts and videos are put together, not by committee, but by people who love this world. It's embarrassing to get that wrong as the writer of this script, but it's bound to happen on occasions. Well spotted!
Not Cirdan's fault. He could see Gandalf's efforts would need the ring, and thus he possibly also knew what Saruman would become. It would stand to reason that Saruman's fall was inevitable and already set into motion.
Not (or at least, not SOLELY) Cirdan’s fault. Most the fault belongs to Saruman for failing to curb his own pride. Maybe a small share belongs to Galadriel for her recommendation that Gandalf be appointed head of the White Council, rather than Saruman, but it was still HIS own ego that tripped him up.
Not Cirdan's fault. Saruman considered himself the strongest and the most qualified to take on Sauron. I think between Manwe forcing Gandalf to go, Cirdan's gift to Gandalf, him being stuck to babysit Radagast, and Galadriel wanting Gandalf to lead the White Council, he had enough. It's almost like working for a company for 10 years and seeing a hot shot who just joined be on equal rank and status.
it might have been Cirdan's fault - but then again... Curunir was a Maia after all, so... he should probably have known better? Also, he had been jealous og Olorin from the very get go, so... he welcomed Cirdan's gift for power... Hence, not at all Curunir's fault at all?
NOT Cirdans fault ... 1. A persons actions (whether he is a maja, elf, dwarf or human ... or even orc ..) is his own choice. Hence a soldier committing war crimes cannot just blame I was given order to do this ... 2. Cirdan probably already saw what would happen with Saruman ... and saw the potential of Gandalf. He was wise.
What must be understood is the beginnings of the Istari. The Istari were Maia that had taken up a form of man. In their transformation, these Maia forgot much, and had to relearn much. When the Istari known as Curunir was bought before Yavanna and asked of Curunir that he be accompanied by Yavanna's choice of Istari. This member was later known as Rhadagast the Brown. Curunir accepted this request poorly, thus showing his flaws of character! This pride was later to damn Curunir!
I wouldn't blame Cirdan; the bearded elf didn't do wrong, and Saruman, even before he departed Valinor, was already showing signs of vanity. If I had to blame someone, I would, as I usually do, blame God, for I feel Eru Illuvatar taking away their memories of home, and something to return to, helped compel Saruman to nerd to "fix" this earth. A little silly I wish we knew; what was Saruman about before he took up residence in Isengard? He spent however long in the East, and I don't believe he entered Orthanc the DAY he returned, so there had to be a time where he wandered. I don't see him keeping a simple house, as Radagast did, but plebian inns and taverns also seem beneath him. Hell, I'm surprised when he was at Isengard he didn't seem to be attended by servants, yet such trivial things as cooking, cleaning, and other domestic chores seem beneath him. Did he adventure the world in those fine white robes? Did the elves like him enough to provide them? I think it could have been neat to get more info on the White Wizard on a personal level, but maybe I'm just weird.
It was not Cirdan. Tolkien wrote (not in exact words) at one point that students of aule or crafting had something of a god complex. This is proven with Feanor, Sauron and even Aule himself. Feanor with the silmarils engaged in many dark deeds such as withholding them from the valar to benefit the world in relighting the two trees and in the kin slaying. Sauron in joining Morgoth because he saw more power in him than in Aule. Aule himself in the creation of the dwarves before they were given true life he needed to plead forgiveness of Eru who adopted and then blessed the dwarves with true life (before sending them back to sleep until the elves awoke). Saruman does this with his creation of a minor ring of power and creating his own species of Uruk, though like Morgoth he cannot create only change or corrupt. Saruman was jealous because he was seen as the strongest and head of the wizards order, with his god and power complex why should Gandalf have the ring of fire and not him. This is also shown when saruman was selected for the istari order and Yavanna a valar had to BEG him to take Aiwendil. This shows how much he thought of himself.
Not Cirdan's fault it was in his Nature, Just like it wasn't Elrond's fault for not pushing that Idiot Isildur into Mount Doom along with the Ring when he refused to throw the thing in there. Sorry I am joking but Elves for all their wisdom are prone to do the daftest things when least expected, I think they do it on purpose if I am honest, And here's my proof a little known Line written in Sindarin which was inscribe on a Elven Whoopee cushion which I think is quite enlightening Mín mel na cause trast- ha's mín Bag translation We Love to cause trouble it's our Bag
In my opinion Cirdan placed the ring where he perceived it would be most effective. Good call - if Saruman was affronted enough by this one action to essentially join the dark-motivated, I think it's obvious Cirdan made the correct judgement. Jealousy is a bad characteristic for a leader... 🙈🙉🙊
Not Cirdan's Fault. I think Saruman's fascination with the One Ring would have steered him toward Sauron's influence with or without his jealousy of Gandalf. It could be argued that if Saruman had Narya in his possession, he might have resisted temptation or even fought off Sauron's enticement, but that's not on Cirdan. Things could have turned out differently, but Saruman's decisions were his and his alone. I don't believe that Saruman was ever "good" in the same way that Gandalf was. I do think that he was a true enemy of Sauron to start with (maybe because he felt a responsibility to oppose him since he was also a Maiar of Aule) but I never noticed any mention of him having any real desire to help Middle Earth or its peoples. Saruman was willing to stand against evil, but not to stand apart from it
To answer ur question @ 10:35 ab how Sauruman turned evil, the answer is; it was his own fault. Sauruman had a choice between good and evil, and he chose evil. He already displayed villainous tendencies when he was jealous of Gandalf for getting the ring of fire (lacking humility). He allowed himself to be seduced by the idea of Sauron's goal of dominating Middle Earth to then dominate it himself. In pursuit of this goal, Sauruman repeats Sauron's methods of babarity by committing merciless atrocities against the beings of Middle Earth, even going out of his way to sabotage Gandalf and the others in their effort to beat Sauron. He seeks to oppress the people's of Middle Earth, arrogantly believing that they can't defend themselves, to then create an oppressive authoritarian regime with himself at the helm. For all his knowledge and wisdom, he failed to understand that he had a mission to help the people's of Middle Earth defeat Sauron, not take Sauron's place. Had he have aided Gandalf and the others, I strongly believe that Sauron could have been defeated much earlier, but he prolonged the war, causing more pain and suffering on Middle Earth. Sauruman chose a path of evil. In doing so, he created more agony and grief when he could've brought peace to that world.
*Not Cirdan's fault.* Tolkien serves us some subtle semblance of Saruman's slightly suspicious character even whilst in Aman. If Saruman had been given Narya, he'd've eventually perverted its strengths to evil even to the point where the overall fight against Sauron and the Ring Quest itself could not have been successful.
It was not Cirdan’s fault that Saruman became corrupt. Gandalf wouldn’t have begrudged someone else getting Narya and certainly wouldn’t have turned evil over it. The rot was already in Saruman’s soul.
It was not Cirdan's Fault. For the same knowledge was given to Gandalf in time and the choice fell upon him to take The One Ring or not; to which free will or free choice was a thing to these wizards. And he did not for he knew the evil that was crafted into such a small thing. Then we also had the Tree Beard said "A Wizard Should Have Known Better." Upon one, who among the others shouldn't have even considered it.
Obviously it's not Cirdan's fault, and only a lack of basic knowledge of ethics can lead anyone to believe otherwise. To be honest, it's a ridiculous question. Cirdan did what was his right to do, and Saruman should have been grateful for the aid this gave his cause. If I were a teacher and gave a star student a deserved "A", would it be my fault of some psycho gunned down the class because he felt cheated?
Saruman was probably swayed by Melkors discord but smart enough not to join along. I think that’s a way to describe him. I think sending him down was a way to weed him out. Either he overcomes his self interest or succumbs to it I guess.
Saruman used more witchcraft than Gandalf which was a sign that he was wicked and corrupted. Gandalf only used it for good when necessary. RIP Sir Christopher Lee❤
Do you believe in fate or destiny? Seems like pride and petty jealousy are major character flaws of Saruman. If not getting slighted by Cirdan yesterday then it will be because of Galadriel showing Gandalf her favour tomorrow or Sauron massaging his ego the day after. Pick one. Saruman over time would have to do a self reflection to recognize these flaws and overcome them, mature.
It's all your fault. Lol. He, Saruman/ Curinir, was plotting and scheming from the start. He spent an inordinate amount of time in the east before setting up shop in Isengard. A rogue who spoke with forked tongue.
It was definitely not Cirdans fault. Cirdan was wise and saw in Mithrandirs heart that he had no ill intentions. Curidin obviously showed intent of greed and power seeking. I have also seen so many videos of the blue wizards arriving first, yet you say Curudin came first...I am extremely confused on this, but I know you guys are highly knowledged.
Im sure Saruman would have turned to evil no matter what. The only way for him to not turn evil would probably be something pretty ridiculous like if he never had that lust for knowledge and for the ring lore, which would probably not happen because he was a Maiar of Aluë or if he just wanst a Maiar of Aluë and was a servant to another Valar
I'll go to my grave thinking that Saruman believed Sauron was unbeatable, and therefore wanted the One for himself to use against Sauron. The idea that anyone would have the strength of will to toss it into Mt Doom he thought was absurd. Saruman's story only strengthens how remarkable Frodo and Sam (and Bilbo) were
I for one do not think Saruman was evil from the beginning. It always felt more complicated than that. Maybe near þe end of his life he truly was an evil person, but for most of his life I þink he was more of a morally gray character.
Not cirdan fault. It not the fact that the gray receive a ring of power that saruman became evil. Saruman as a love of power and respect and it the lack of reconnaissance from other that make him power hungry. Galadriel has sugest Gandalf has leader of their consil, but he refused. Saruman was second, always were. This is what he hate to be second. But it keep it to himself
Clearly Cirdans fault, the ring giving is the ”We do not grant you the rank of master” of this universe Imagine Sarumans cries of outrages in the havens. ”It’s unfair”
10:35 - It was not Cirdan's fault. Giving the Red Ring to Gandalf wouldn't make Saruman's fall Cirdan's fault; if all it takes is resentment of a gift to someone else, well, that's Saruman's fault.
I really don't think lotr is a story of good vs evil. You can argue especially sauron is not a evil being. Even morgoth is not just evil. The only character that strikes me as a being created as evil for evil is the giant spider that eats the trees(yes don't remember her name).
I prefer the movie version where the Shire is the way it was when Frodo left it to go on the quest. I always felt that the Scouring of the Shire was anticlimactic and unnecessary to the overall story. The movie version did it better where the Shire is the same but Frodo, Samwise, Merri and Pippen are different. Theirs eyes were open to the wider world, but they didn't resent their fellow Hobbits of the Shire for being who they were either. It was the perfect allegory of what people who go to war must feel like when they come home again.
Well done to those who have spotted the mistake! At 20:21 I did NOT mean Fatty, I meant Lotho! 🤦♂️😂💚
I was wondering whether Jackson had besmirched Fatty's name..
It's ok, since ROP you're full of mistakes and contradictions. That's the channel now
But someone else writes your scripts now. Was it his fault or your fault?
@@shogun0810 then get off the channel, man. Just like to troll?
I was too busy, and to tell the truth, too pissed off, to say anything when I first heard it. I assumed it had to be just a typo/misspeak, and glad to see it was a priority to correct
There is not an actor ever born who could have brought Saruman to life better than Christopher Lee. Everything from his height and appearance, to his commanding presence and amazing voice, were perfect. Add to that his knowledge and reverence with regard to the source material, and there's just no question. The man was made to play Saruman, and I will always be glad he did.
Daniel day lewis wouldve been great as well .
he never made me see a black smith. A black smith would have muscles?
@@sergjarz1145 DDL would indeed have been a very intriguing choice. Also Sean Pertwee would've been a much better fit for Elrond.
I feel the same about Ian McKellen as Gandalf, he is perfect. I might've read somewhere that Lee wanted to play Gandalf, and though I'm sure he would've made it work, I'm glad we ended up with the castings we got for those 2 wizards
Christopher Lee had the most interesting life.
Not Círdan’s fault. Just like Tree Beard said, “A Wizard should have known better!”
Not Cirdan's fault, Saruman has always been a jealous character. Like sauron, he desired power, though not as quick or bold to take action.
I think Sauruman is in Tolkein's world, an example of how the absence of humility can lead to arrogance, which then leads to evil.
beautiful. absolutely! Unchecked power breeds arrogance, arrogance pride, and pride an absence of humility. And we know how those without humility fare in middle earth 😂😂
I’ve noticed that Christopher Lee had a knack for playing noble characters who had fallen.
Dracula, Saruman, Count Dooku
All were men who were proud and sought something just out of their reach and something turned in them which they decided they were no longer bound by what limitations society and/or perceived that held them back prior.
They will achieve their goal, even if it means reaching forth and touching the darkness
You see? This is the perfect scenario of what the Rings of Power should’ve done as Saruman and even the Nazgûl did the same thing. Instead of Galadriel they should’ve followed Saruman.
Saruman is an excellent character study of pride and how it slowly takes hold and grows over time when unchecked
One could say his fall was inevitable. He was always proud and impatient. He desired order and efficiency because he felt he was uniquely qualified to bring that and what is more inefficient than different free peoples all pursuing their own agendas at cross-purposes?
A fall is never inevitable; it's the choice of the person who falls. Saruman could have retained humility and kept to his job.
@@florbfnarb7099 not really, circumstances and nature can make an outcome effectively predetermined. Does the individual make a choice? Yes, but within the context of their personality, their characteristics, nature and the setting how much of that is choice and how much is following the natural course of events?
@@grandadmiralzaarin4962 - People are able to resist the natural course of events. People who brutalize others are not compelled to do so unless their mind is so far gone they have no control over themselves at all - and even then, there have no doubt been people in those circumstances who, in a moment of understanding their actions, have killed themselves to avoid harming anyone in the future.
People who commit armed robbery are not compelled to do so. People who murder aren't compelled to do so. And angelic beings in the guise of old men who attempt to conquer the world aren't compelled to do so; they could refuse. They're simply giving in to their own wrong desires.
@@florbfnarb7099 from your point of view. Yet we have examples of mental and psychological illness that does in fact compel individuals. Particularly in Tolkien's works, where Morgoth's entire personality, arrogance and destruction are literally stated as derived from Eru. With Saruman and Sauron both we have a desire for order, control and yes, even betterment that starts their corruption before it is finalized through their personality traits and compulsion from someone more powerful than themselves. Again we see this literally after Sauron won the contest of wills with Saruman in the palantir. Characters that do evil do not see themselves as evil, particularly in the case of Sauron and Saruman, they see their actions as ends justifying the means, and over time those become increasingly more drastic and self serving until they're unrecognizable.
There's also the entire debate on morality and ethics being subjective in nature, which further undermines your argument for the 'choice' factor being black and white.
@@grandadmiralzaarin4962 Melkor wasn't compelled to become evil either. He was willing to do so for the sake of his own power. Same for Sauron and Saruman; none of them were compelled agains their will to do the things they did.
And there's nothing subjective about morality as such, much as men might debate the details; murder is simply wrong, and so forth.
Of course none of them considered themselves evil; almost nobody does. But that doesn't mean they aren't; they can mean good at first and still do evil through arrogance and a willingness to use means they have no right to use.
Christopher Lee did such a timeless job on Saruman
The most interesting character in LOTR imo. Christopher Lee was an amazing actor and played him perfectly.
But Jackson didn’t write him perfectly IMO. I get why but he doesn’t really show that Saruman sees Sauron as a rival and that he’s not just a minion.
Not Cirdan's fault. Especially considering that the information on Saruman knowing about the ring is left out of LOTR. A number of the Maiar joined with Morgoth previously, so it is not unlikely that the pull of power and greed would infect on such as Curumo as well. In fact, I suspect that Curumo/Saruman likely felt that he was smarter that Sauron and would be able to achieve greater power through his cleverness and deceit. Just a thought...
Not Cirdan's fault; there were other ways he could've handled not getting a gift, like proving he could be a wise cool mega wizard without a trinket... a prideful approach as an example. Saruman's choices are his own, his lack of perspective as well
I wonder if perhaps Eru gave Cirdan a brief moment of “enlightened insight” (even by Elven standards) when Gandalf came from sea. Similar instances in the books: On the slopes of Mount Doom, Sam sees a physical manifestation of the forces good and of the ring when Frodo casts his prophecy to Gollum. Another instance (though Frodo is wearing the ring and thus in the ‘realm between the two realms’) was when Frodo sees Glorfindel as he is on the other side at the ford fighting off the Nazgul.
I wonder if a similar situation happened where Eru gave Cirdan - and only Cirdan - a heightened level of insight to his great plans and why he would need Cirdan to stay in middle earth with great patience and he should give such a great ring this seemingly feeblest of the great beings to come across. Eru showed him that actually held more power than the rest. I know Tolkien hated allegory, but I can’t help but compare it to having a gut instinct on the humble underdog rather than the cocky title defender. Saruman was hungry; Gandalf was humble. Even cloaked in their wisest of appearances, even though their intentions may have been purest when stepping off the boat, I wonder if Eru trusted Cirdan with this most detailed foresight given to any being originally of middle earth so that he would never waiver in waiting for literal Ages. Just a fun idea lol
Nobody else could be blame for Saruman’s. His personality made him naturally susceptible to corruption, he was too eager to test himself against Sauron, which led him down many paths which all come out to the same conclusion, Sauron couldn’t be defeated by strength, unless you used the one ring.
It can be argued that it was because only it fostered immediate ill will and distrust with him and the elves as well as caused a rift between him and Gandalf.
Although....his character flaws ie his pride and ego in being the leader of the "wise " made this moment one that would instantly offend and therefore push him onto the road he ended on in a potential effort to prove others wrong.....
The road to hell is paved with good intentions after all.
Saruman, being a Maia, did not truly die. His spirit separated from his body much like his master Sauron's after the Downfall of Numenor. As an incorporeal spirit, he should have been called to the Halls of Mandos, but the tale implies that he was barred from returning. Tolkien indicated that his spirit was left naked, powerless and wandering, never to return to Middle-earth:
"Whereas Curunir was cast down, and utterly humbled, and perished at last by the hand of an oppressed slave; and his spirit went whither-soever it was doomed to go, and to Middle-earth, whether naked or embodied, came never back." -- Saruman's fate
It was not Cirdan's fault. Saruman was proud from the beginning, and this pride only grew in him through time, the nobler Gandalf became. Saruman coveted the power which Gandalf did not want, but wielded nonetheless. In his research Saruman "delved too greedily and too deep", until there came a time when he could no longer hide his jealousy.of Gandalf.
To be starting out Good.. and or Well Meaning etc.. Twists and Turns and Life.. sigh, thanks, well done.
I always saw Saruman as a villain you love to hate. Sauron is just so terrifying and serious, it’s nice seeing a villain that’s entertainingly unlikeable while still a serious threat. He’s jealous, greedy, spiteful, petty, selfish, and short tempered.
He tried to take over the world because he was salty about Gandalf being more popular than him. When he escapes Orthanc, the first thing he does is become a crime boss and takeover the Shire, purely out of spite. Frodo offers to let him go, Saruman responds by trying to stab him. Any and every chance he was given to redeem himself and become better, he smacked away. He’s just a heinous person.
There’s also the whole feeding people to his orcs thing.
I don't think he was evil at the start. He was, I believe, more hungry for power and seeked out for all possible things to gain as much power as possible. His jealous nature probaply didn't aid him to influence everybody. And it probaply also didn't aid him in his thinking and choice making. He turned evil. And his choices, actions and jealous nature aided in becoming evil.
Not Cirdans fault. Saruman desired power just like Sauron, is it a coincidence that both Sauron and Saruman served under Aule the Valar
It goes to show you the power of the one ring, that Sauramon, who had never even laid eyes on it, was corrupted by it. Pretty horrifying.
Not Cirdan's fault. Curunir's jealousy of Olorin began before they left Aman.
Not Cirdan’s fault. Even by being jealous of Gandalf Saruman still could have worked with him for the greater good. And remember even before Cirdan, Gandalf was also manwe’s personal choice to be one of the istari. The King of the Valar chose Olorin, not curumo, as his personal favorite to go. Saruman was jealous of Gandalf long before the ring was given.
It was NOT Círdan's fault. Curumo had always been arrogant and self-important, thinking himself above taking along Aiwendil on his journey to Middle Earth, so it stands to reason that he would be filled with spite if someone other than himself was given such a great and powerful gift as the ring of fire Narya.
It was not Círdan's fault. Saruman had already problems before coming to Middle-earth
I think that fault was in attitude to Saruman. Imagine that you are the the most powerful and clever wizard, but all attention is given to your less skilfull colleague...
I don’t think cirdan caused Saruman to fall. He was already jealous before he arrived in middle earth and he continues to be king after. He seeks power to prove that he didn’t need Gandalf and it causes him to fall.
I think even without the ring Saruman would be jealous. Just because he knows Gandalf is better.
I wouldn't say Tolkien only had strictly good and strictly evil characters. There are a few gray characters in the novels and movies.
Denethor, Boromir, Smeagol/Gollum, Saruman
I'm sure there are others, but I'm working on 3 hours sleep today so....
Absolutely not Cirdan's fault. It says that Saruman was proud and impatient, not a good mix. When or how he discovered Gandalf had Narya is not known, but in his pride it would have made him envious and jealous.
i dont think its Cirdan's fault fro Saruman going batshit crazy tho it only enhanced what Saruman already had in him.
It wasn't his fault. If all it took was not getting a gift to turn bad bad was already there and just looking for a excuse to be released.
Not cirdans fault since tolkein seems to like to make those forgers the most rebellious since the beginning when Aule created the dwarves without permission from Eru to Feanor with the silmarils and then Sauron and celebrimbor with the rings of power, it just seems that forgers and workers of metal are the most flawed in the legendarium
that is an interesting perspective indeed.
I think honest Kirdan unknowingly or knowingly dodged a bullet.
When Gandalf meets Saurman in LotR how does he identify himself?
He says and i qoute "For i am Saruman the wise, Saruman Ringmaker, Saruman of many colors."
Ringmaker and Gandalf even says he saw a ring on Saruman´s finger.
Saruman was able to make a lesser ring of power without having an actual ring to study...
What do you think would have happened if Saruman got a hold of one of the three elven rings?
How long would it take him to decode their making and copy their design for his own gains?
My bet is not long, in fact Tolkien eludes to this in one of his letters.
If the enemy had just captured Sauron, allowing Saruman access to Mordor, it wouldn´t have been long before he would have found the last pieces of missing lore and be able to craft a master ring of his own.
So again Saruman not having access to one the Elven Rings, might just have saved Middle Earth the coming of a second dark lord.
Though it would be an interesting what if scenario, if Saruman had been able to make a master ring of his own before the fall of Sauron, could he actually have competed directly against Sauron in strength of would Sauron have crushed him?
Brilliant, I wished they would make a Lord of the Rings: What If? kind of short story or comic book where Saruman gets hold of the ring-lore from Mordor, makes a second master ring, and becomes a rival Dark Lord...I imagine one would try to kill the other eventually, but no matter who wins Middle Earth would certainly lose lol...
One correction. Fatty Bulger wasn't on Saruman's side, he was a rebel leader after the Shire was taken over. It was Frodo's cousin who was manipulated by Saruman.
I wouldn't so much say that it's Cirdan's fault as much as his responsibility. It may have ended up being a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy. One of the properties of the Ring was to restore and hope and courage. It may have been what kept Gandalf from succumbing to the despair of fighting against Sauron and joining him as Saruman did.
Dang, good point! Though I like to think Gandalf's resolve and empathy for the peoples/creatures of Middle Earth would have kept strong even without Narya(but who knows!?). Fun to think about either way, for sure.
Did you know that Christopher Lee started a death metal band before he died?
No not Cirdans fault. Saruman is responsible for his actions
Sarunron of many colors
I am curious as to what happened to Saruman's rings of power. The other 19 lesser rings were tied to the One Ring. Their power diminished with its destruction. Were Saruman's rings equally tied? If he was only able to uncover Sauron or Celebrimbor's methods of crafting Rings of Power, then it's likely they too would have lost their power after the One Ring was destroyed. But if Saruman figured out how to avoid that, then what happened to these mighty weapons? Or was it just one more ring? Did Gandalf take it back to the Undying Lands to prevent it from being used for evil?
I wish P.J. filmed Scouring of The Shire while Christopher Lee was still alive, that would be incredible imo!
If only 💚 I can see it being a one-off 8-part series one day! It could be incredible!!
That must be who the stranger is because the numenor video came out right before the new episode
😂😂 we can only guess on anything! We have no way of knowing beforehand!
I think Saruman is already prone to becoming evil because of the way he was. He is just like Sauron, prideful and ambitious.
It was his pride, thinking he was better and more deserving in his on eyes.
It was not Cirdan's fault, it was kept in secret and passed in secret, if Curumo had been pure of heart he would not have been jealous of Olorin...
IMO its not Cirdan’s fault. You can’t, eve with one ring force traits on a characters, that arent already there. It reminds of Maia who became balrogs- they weren’t turned by force, they had evil in them before
I agree! 💚
I do NOT think it was Cirdan’s fault. Whilst in his pure Maiar form, I believe Curumo had more strength and sense of purpose toward his mission and fully expected to fulfill it. However, as others mentioned, I think he always had that spark of desire for order and the overconfidence that he could be the leader to enforce it. It isn’t an impossibility, seeing how others of their kind harbored jealousy and desire for power greater than they’d been granted & therefore turned to evil. I do feel only the seeds of that and any ill will toward Olórin probably began even then, though perhaps not consciously. I just feel like maybe he thought Gandalf had humility and wasn’t always confident, plus kind of “towed the company line” without complaint or ambition & Saruman likely saw that as a weakness & someone who was more follower than wise leader. Yet, he observed Gandalf getting approval and recognition for these traits. At the time he may even have just thought it misplaced. However, it feels like this and his other inherent characteristics only grew larger and darker over time once they were ensconced in a more human form, with almost all our weaknesses in body and character. Especially, when the same treatment of Gandalf being more trusted and revered continued in various forms among these beings he probably considered much lesser. He most likely tried to brush them aside for a long time, figuring these creatures don’t know any better. But, it slowly festered and grew & seeing that his rival, Sauron, was proving more formidable than he previously thought, he started recalling how things had been much the same before they came to Middle Earth. Maybe he started thinking Sauron had the right idea, accumulating power and trying to mold things the way he saw fit. He definitely wouldn’t have respected Sauron enough to really “join” with him, as he, himself was still up top in line for such a position. But, I feel he always believed he was up to the task of using Sauron’s methods against him to claim all that he desired and felt he deserved. He probably found it convenient that Sauron looked like he was on the winning end & that he should, therefore, exploit it. You can still see the conflict within him when he makes a last ditch effort to get Gandalf to go along with that “joining.” I wonder if being himself, trying to rise and achieve wonders, plus not being 100% evil was a lonely place, but one he was willing to forego company in if it must needs be. I also think some fear and desperation creeped in at the end there that made him doubt his confidence at last and gave him the final push to become fully entrenched in the dark path. An ignoble end (both in book & film) for one who started out do mighty and bright and full of potential.
Firstly, thank you for taking the time to leave such an awesome comment!!
And I agree, Saruman may have done evil, but I do believe that he always believed it was the ‘right’ reasons!
Correction: Not Fatty Bolger but Lothello Sackville-Baggins.
great spotting! It's embarrassing as the script writer to make a mistake like this, but I appreciate you pointing it out.
Cirdan did nothing wrong!
Put that on a T-shirt! LoL
The White Wizard had to already have the seeds of dark things in him , or he wouldn't have gone Dark so easily.
Who says it was "easily" though? He was incarnated for thousands of years. Who knows what evil we might be tempted into in that much time? We get up to plenty enough evil in our eighty years as it is.
I’d like to see a bit of Saruman before The Hobbit, see if he was always what we have seen :)
My second favorite wizard. I always wanted him to have more scenes in books and movies. Hopefully there will be something done soon with him, Gandalf and other wizards when they were younger.
No thanks. They will pervert it with wokeness.
@@marcusweathers3070 fair point
My thoughts on Saruman: I think the fault lies with the Valar. In choosing to give the Astari the forms of men, I think they also gave them the failings of them. That, when forced through the filter of a man, their thoughts and deeds were colored by that filter.
The reaction to the ring of power being given to Gandalf only revealed Saruman's lack of character and character faults. His fall already happened...
Same as the law of God reveals our fall, and why we need to repent and accept Jesus Christ as savior.
20:20 Just a little mistake, you said saruman, Fatty Bolger, and a band of ruffians were responsible for what happened. I think you probably meant Lotho? Maybe Ted Sandyman?
I definitely meant Lotho 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️ but great spot 💚
@@TheBrokenSword thanks! It makes sense though, it's honestly surprising you don't make more mistakes then you do with so many names, and so many similar sounding names, anyway love the content dawg keep it up!
@@illuin__ Hey Eric, great catch! There was an earlier line in the video that was cut that might have spared us a lot of the "Not Cirdan's fault!" comments you see up and down the page. The point was, for Saruman it is never his own fault, but that of other's, he let those kinds of slights be justifications for his own terrible actions. thanks for watching the entire video! Lotho is correct, sorry for missing that. These scripts and videos are put together, not by committee, but by people who love this world. It's embarrassing to get that wrong as the writer of this script, but it's bound to happen on occasions. Well spotted!
Not Cirdan's fault. He could see Gandalf's efforts would need the ring, and thus he possibly also knew what Saruman would become. It would stand to reason that Saruman's fall was inevitable and already set into motion.
It was not Cirdan's fault.
Didn't Saruman's use of the palantir give Sauron an inroad into influencing him?
It was not Ciridan's fault.
Nobody is responsible for others having flawed traits such as Saruman's jealousy
Proud, impatient, jealous, and insecure....like Vladimir Putya.
Not cirdan's fault
Not (or at least, not SOLELY) Cirdan’s fault. Most the fault belongs to Saruman for failing to curb his own pride. Maybe a small share belongs to Galadriel for her recommendation that Gandalf be appointed head of the White Council, rather than Saruman, but it was still HIS own ego that tripped him up.
Not Cirdan's fault. Saruman considered himself the strongest and the most qualified to take on Sauron. I think between Manwe forcing Gandalf to go, Cirdan's gift to Gandalf, him being stuck to babysit Radagast, and Galadriel wanting Gandalf to lead the White Council, he had enough.
It's almost like working for a company for 10 years and seeing a hot shot who just joined be on equal rank and status.
Not Cirdan's fault. Saruman was overtaken by his own pride and ego.
it might have been Cirdan's fault - but then again... Curunir was a Maia after all, so... he should probably have known better? Also, he had been jealous og Olorin from the very get go, so... he welcomed Cirdan's gift for power... Hence, not at all Curunir's fault at all?
NOT Cirdans fault ...
1. A persons actions (whether he is a maja, elf, dwarf or human ... or even orc ..) is his own choice. Hence a soldier committing war crimes cannot just blame I was given order to do this ...
2. Cirdan probably already saw what would happen with Saruman ... and saw the potential of Gandalf. He was wise.
What must be understood is the beginnings of the Istari. The Istari were Maia that had taken up a form of man. In their transformation, these Maia forgot much, and had to relearn much. When the Istari known as Curunir was bought before Yavanna and asked of Curunir that he be accompanied by Yavanna's choice of Istari. This member was later known as Rhadagast the Brown. Curunir accepted this request poorly, thus showing his flaws of character! This pride was later to damn Curunir!
I wouldn't blame Cirdan; the bearded elf didn't do wrong, and Saruman, even before he departed Valinor, was already showing signs of vanity. If I had to blame someone, I would, as I usually do, blame God, for I feel Eru Illuvatar taking away their memories of home, and something to return to, helped compel Saruman to nerd to "fix" this earth.
A little silly I wish we knew; what was Saruman about before he took up residence in Isengard? He spent however long in the East, and I don't believe he entered Orthanc the DAY he returned, so there had to be a time where he wandered. I don't see him keeping a simple house, as Radagast did, but plebian inns and taverns also seem beneath him. Hell, I'm surprised when he was at Isengard he didn't seem to be attended by servants, yet such trivial things as cooking, cleaning, and other domestic chores seem beneath him. Did he adventure the world in those fine white robes? Did the elves like him enough to provide them? I think it could have been neat to get more info on the White Wizard on a personal level, but maybe I'm just weird.
It was not Cirdan. Tolkien wrote (not in exact words) at one point that students of aule or crafting had something of a god complex. This is proven with Feanor, Sauron and even Aule himself. Feanor with the silmarils engaged in many dark deeds such as withholding them from the valar to benefit the world in relighting the two trees and in the kin slaying. Sauron in joining Morgoth because he saw more power in him than in Aule. Aule himself in the creation of the dwarves before they were given true life he needed to plead forgiveness of Eru who adopted and then blessed the dwarves with true life (before sending them back to sleep until the elves awoke). Saruman does this with his creation of a minor ring of power and creating his own species of Uruk, though like Morgoth he cannot create only change or corrupt. Saruman was jealous because he was seen as the strongest and head of the wizards order, with his god and power complex why should Gandalf have the ring of fire and not him. This is also shown when saruman was selected for the istari order and Yavanna a valar had to BEG him to take Aiwendil. This shows how much he thought of himself.
Not Cirdan's fault it was in his Nature, Just like it wasn't Elrond's fault for not pushing that Idiot Isildur into Mount Doom along with the Ring when he refused to throw the thing in there. Sorry I am joking but Elves for all their wisdom are prone to do the daftest things when least expected, I think they do it on purpose if I am honest, And here's my proof a little known Line written in Sindarin which was inscribe on a Elven Whoopee cushion which I think is quite enlightening Mín mel na cause trast- ha's mín Bag translation We Love to cause trouble it's our Bag
In my opinion Cirdan placed the ring where he perceived it would be most effective. Good call - if Saruman was affronted enough by this one action to essentially join the dark-motivated, I think it's obvious Cirdan made the correct judgement.
Jealousy is a bad characteristic for a leader...
🙈🙉🙊
Not Cirdan's Fault. I think Saruman's fascination with the One Ring would have steered him toward Sauron's influence with or without his jealousy of Gandalf. It could be argued that if Saruman had Narya in his possession, he might have resisted temptation or even fought off Sauron's enticement, but that's not on Cirdan. Things could have turned out differently, but Saruman's decisions were his and his alone.
I don't believe that Saruman was ever "good" in the same way that Gandalf was. I do think that he was a true enemy of Sauron to start with (maybe because he felt a responsibility to oppose him since he was also a Maiar of Aule) but I never noticed any mention of him having any real desire to help Middle Earth or its peoples. Saruman was willing to stand against evil, but not to stand apart from it
To answer ur question @ 10:35 ab how Sauruman turned evil, the answer is; it was his own fault. Sauruman had a choice between good and evil, and he chose evil. He already displayed villainous tendencies when he was jealous of Gandalf for getting the ring of fire (lacking humility). He allowed himself to be seduced by the idea of Sauron's goal of dominating Middle Earth to then dominate it himself. In pursuit of this goal, Sauruman repeats Sauron's methods of babarity by committing merciless atrocities against the beings of Middle Earth, even going out of his way to sabotage Gandalf and the others in their effort to beat Sauron. He seeks to oppress the people's of Middle Earth, arrogantly believing that they can't defend themselves, to then create an oppressive authoritarian regime with himself at the helm. For all his knowledge and wisdom, he failed to understand that he had a mission to help the people's of Middle Earth defeat Sauron, not take Sauron's place. Had he have aided Gandalf and the others, I strongly believe that Sauron could have been defeated much earlier, but he prolonged the war, causing more pain and suffering on Middle Earth. Sauruman chose a path of evil. In doing so, he created more agony and grief when he could've brought peace to that world.
*Not Cirdan's fault.* Tolkien serves us some subtle semblance of Saruman's slightly suspicious character even whilst in Aman. If Saruman had been given Narya, he'd've eventually perverted its strengths to evil even to the point where the overall fight against Sauron and the Ring Quest itself could not have been successful.
It was not Cirdan’s fault that Saruman became corrupt. Gandalf wouldn’t have begrudged someone else getting Narya and certainly wouldn’t have turned evil over it. The rot was already in Saruman’s soul.
It was not Cirdan's Fault. For the same knowledge was given to Gandalf in time and the choice fell upon him to take The One Ring or not; to which free will or free choice was a thing to these wizards. And he did not for he knew the evil that was crafted into such a small thing. Then we also had the Tree Beard said "A Wizard Should Have Known Better." Upon one, who among the others shouldn't have even considered it.
Obviously it's not Cirdan's fault, and only a lack of basic knowledge of ethics can lead anyone to believe otherwise. To be honest, it's a ridiculous question. Cirdan did what was his right to do, and Saruman should have been grateful for the aid this gave his cause. If I were a teacher and gave a star student a deserved "A", would it be my fault of some psycho gunned down the class because he felt cheated?
Saruman was probably swayed by Melkors discord but smart enough not to join along. I think that’s a way to describe him. I think sending him down was a way to weed him out. Either he overcomes his self interest or succumbs to it I guess.
Saruman used more witchcraft than Gandalf which was a sign that he was wicked and corrupted. Gandalf only used it for good when necessary. RIP Sir Christopher Lee❤
Do you believe in fate or destiny? Seems like pride and petty jealousy are major character flaws of Saruman. If not getting slighted by Cirdan yesterday then it will be because of Galadriel showing Gandalf her favour tomorrow or Sauron massaging his ego the day after. Pick one. Saruman over time would have to do a self reflection to recognize these flaws and overcome them, mature.
It's all your fault.
Lol.
He, Saruman/ Curinir, was plotting and scheming from the start.
He spent an inordinate amount of time in the east before setting up shop in Isengard.
A rogue who spoke with forked tongue.
It was definitely not Cirdans fault. Cirdan was wise and saw in Mithrandirs heart that he had no ill intentions. Curidin obviously showed intent of greed and power seeking.
I have also seen so many videos of the blue wizards arriving first, yet you say Curudin came first...I am extremely confused on this, but I know you guys are highly knowledged.
Aüle has bad luck. Both Sauron and Saruman served under him. Sauron before joining Melkor, Saruman before going to Middle-Earth
Im sure Saruman would have turned to evil no matter what. The only way for him to not turn evil would probably be something pretty ridiculous like if he never had that lust for knowledge and for the ring lore, which would probably not happen because he was a Maiar of Aluë or if he just wanst a Maiar of Aluë and was a servant to another Valar
I'll go to my grave thinking that Saruman believed Sauron was unbeatable, and therefore wanted the One for himself to use against Sauron. The idea that anyone would have the strength of will to toss it into Mt Doom he thought was absurd.
Saruman's story only strengthens how remarkable Frodo and Sam (and Bilbo) were
Fatty Bolger did not assist Saruman. Maybe you mistake meaning Lotho
I for one do not think Saruman was evil from the beginning. It always felt more complicated than that. Maybe near þe end of his life he truly was an evil person, but for most of his life I þink he was more of a morally gray character.
If Sruman didnt have the capacity for jealousy, it wouldnt have been an issue that Cirdan gave Gandalf the ring. So Cirdan isn't at fault.
Not cirdan fault. It not the fact that the gray receive a ring of power that saruman became evil. Saruman as a love of power and respect and it the lack of reconnaissance from other that make him power hungry. Galadriel has sugest Gandalf has leader of their consil, but he refused. Saruman was second, always were. This is what he hate to be second. But it keep it to himself
Clearly Cirdans fault, the ring giving is the ”We do not grant you the rank of master” of this universe
Imagine Sarumans cries of outrages in the havens. ”It’s unfair”
10:35 - It was not Cirdan's fault. Giving the Red Ring to Gandalf wouldn't make Saruman's fall Cirdan's fault; if all it takes is resentment of a gift to someone else, well, that's Saruman's fault.
I really don't think lotr is a story of good vs evil.
You can argue especially sauron is not a evil being.
Even morgoth is not just evil.
The only character that strikes me as a being created as evil for evil is the giant spider that eats the trees(yes don't remember her name).
I prefer the movie version where the Shire is the way it was when Frodo left it to go on the quest. I always felt that the Scouring of the Shire was anticlimactic and unnecessary to the overall story. The movie version did it better where the Shire is the same but Frodo, Samwise, Merri and Pippen are different. Theirs eyes were open to the wider world, but they didn't resent their fellow Hobbits of the Shire for being who they were either. It was the perfect allegory of what people who go to war must feel like when they come home again.
يأيها الراوي كانت الشخصيات في القصة حقيقة ها كان إلهكم وخلقكم. ربما ذالك ما حدث في هذه القصة . وما يحدث الآن دا.
The narrator pronounces the word "elves" as "owlves." Also, the text is interspersed with grammatical errors.
Great freaking job!! I really enjoyed the video.
Definately not Cirdans fault, Saruman isnt a little child and responsible for his own actions. A being like him cant just get jealous over a ring.
Monas Hieroglyphica is a book by John Dee that tries to explain what a human-looking symbol is about. A hazy mystery.
Definitely not Cirdan's fault.
Saruman was corrupted by his own jealousy and desires.