To me, once he properly establishes himself in Arda he becomes Morgoth. I think that would be a fitting moment for him to renounce his divinity under Eru and assume his new identity, and for the children of Iluvatar to stop seeing him as a sort of wayward brother, finally seeing him as their enemy and a threat to their creations.
Eru not only knew Melkor's thoughts, but made it clear to Melkor that everything he did was part of Eru's plan from the begining, that Melkor had no autonomy but was merely an instrument of Eru's will, like all of the Ainur, and could never be anything else. This is clear in the text of the Silmarillion.
Tolkien is pointing out an interesting conundrum in Christian lore about the angels/ first one's is that they had far more power, were Immortal , but yet had very little free will ...they stood in the presence of Eru ( God ) and did his will as instructed .. Morgoth ( a clear analogy for Lucifer/ Satan ) was the first one with the pride to say : wait , I want to do what I want to do.. By expressing his free will, he became the First Agent of Chaos - but were his decisions/ free will ever truly free if they were always foreseen according to Eru' s ( God's ) plan ? Ergo, did God create Evil thru his Agent ?
@@logicplague That would depend on your view of divinity. The Christian god is a celebrated baby murderer yet billions proclaim it as all that is good. It's all kind of subjective.
@@anonymousanon8412 I was going to say. Modern political correctness doesn't permit the idea of evil. The film adaptation will make the orcs an oppressed minority and Morgoth the misunderstood gay hero.
@@SevenThunderful "Modern political correctness"? LOL It allows for evil in an individual but not a species. Choice. Not inante evil. Now Melkor on the other hand is an individual and the source of all Evil. The problem with modern multimedia, it doesn't make for a nuanced character by modern drama correctness standards. People want Magnetos and Thanos that from a certain narrow perspective they are just doing what they think is right. Melkor is created narcissist, asocial and petty. A growing malevolence as time meets temperature to make capital "E" Evil. His Evil solidified but secret before he descended into Arda I assume. It can be done. There is no sympathetic side to Sauron and those films, and those books were successful. The upcoming TA movies will probably be Sauron's Lt, the Witch King, and I doubt even with cut scenes to the past while they try to have you sympathize with the resulting Ringwraith. They will make you know this was a man with some honor who fell for the hope to live longer and became trapped between life and death. Evil is permitted today if it's done well even if motivation can't be sympathized with.
Sauron switched Valar-patrons due to the affinity between himself and Melkor's areas of expertise (originally Sauron was pledged to a different Valar).
@@kooldudematt1 Yeah, he was Aule's Maia at first, and Tolkien states how Aule and Melkor were actually pretty similiar (maybe they even got along before the great theme, but that's just headcanons since we don't get any implicit or explicit hint at that). So it makes sense Sauron switched Vala at a certain point.
If The Rings of Power is a success tv-wise, maybe the estate will sell Silmarillion. Then we can look forward to literally years of good viewing. The tech to bring it to life is there and just the Ainulindalë could do a season, never mind the Lay Of Beren and Luthien!
Nor will we turn our faces from it. We shall be true and faithful to Lord Tolkien. May our children's children have a copy the Hobbit by their nightstand. I'm reading it to my son right now and it still captures imaginations.
@@666JPF What do you mean? Did he steal another TH-camr's idk.,.word-per-word? They have the same source material with same content so.....I don't get what you mean.
Late to the party here bud, but do you know when these books were written? Like literally almost a century ago, i think i read somewhere that his books were selling while he was alive but they didn’t really explode to its full potential yet before he died, so all the money being made off his works is something he didn’t get to see, his relatives im sure receive royalties but its just sad he didn’t get to see his cherished works true implications. Although alot of info isn’t included in the movies though, so slightly salty about that.
Both Morgoth and Sauron are great villains. But Morgoth was very chaotic whereas Sauron was more disciplined in his approach. Sauron was Morgoth's chief lieutenant and I suspect Sauron was responsible for implementing a lot of the ideas Morgoth came up with and for keeping Morgoth's operation in Middle-Earth running to some degree when the then Melkor was imprisoned and then later on parole in Valinor.
Of course Melkor was chaotic. He was an individual, subject to no irrational "law." There was no traditional precedent, without his chaos no one would truly have had free will. Eru Iluvatar seemed to want nothing but yes-folk. Where is the self determination in that? Lesser beings suffered only because they sided with a self-centered tyrant who demanded total, reflexive obedience. Basically, play his game or he'll petulantly take his ball home.
@@mbryson2899 There's more to it than that. Aule also wanted to create life of his own like Melkor, but when faced with the fact that he simply cannot, he didn't throw a fit and run around destroying shit and torturing elves, like Melkor did. That's probably the reason Eru gave life to Aule's creations, but rejected Melkor. Look at the kind of things Melkor makes, when he has the chance: orcs, dragons, diseases, ETC. Eru didn't reject Melkor's desire to create because he wanted to be the only creator, he did so because Melkor was a piece of shit.
@@mbryson2899 If that were true, Eru Ilúvatar would have not allowed free will. He could have made the Ainur puppets, similar to what the dwarves were when Aulë first created them before Eru Ilúvatar gave them independent life. Melkor did not create free will; he simply made awful choices with the free will he had.
I found the concept of evil incarnate as a physical foe who's fate is as elusive as those he chooses to feel Superior to was very interesting. I definitely like morgoth more than sauron as an ultimate villain, it makes sense that sauron is this evil beings second in command.
The fact melkor had lieutenants like sauron is indeed terrifying. He was definitely the strongest of the valar due to being strong enough to ally with ungoliant and have so many chose to worship him
@Hugh Mongous i also think its really fascinating how sauron went from good to evil. The need for everything to be perfect and go his way definitely resembles the fallen angel
I finished reading Ainulindale and it really is like reading Genesis from the Bible. It's very poetic and written in old English. And, Melkor is definitely like Lucifer.
Morgoth is basically the creator of Tolkiens universe, he is the cause of conflict and evil that makes adversaries for heroes to fight against. Eru is the everything, Melkor is the story.
Melkor being basically the catalyst for all the things that happens makes him a much more interesting antagonist than Sauron (who was no slouch himself)
In the beginning of the Silmarillon, Eru's music is described as being beautiful until Melkor's dissonance infects it, and Eru stops three times. Essentially, the music of Iluvatar IS the story of the Sillmarillion and the LOTR, as there are three movements in the Music and Three Ages that Tolkien wrote about. Melkor is the dissonance that makes everything stop. Thus, I'd say that Melkor is the anti-story.
Sauron: "I put part of my spirit in a ring so I can never be 100% defeated" Morgoth: "And what if something happens to that ring?" Sauron: "I'll make sure nothing will happen to it" Morgoth: "Mh, that's a cute idea" *proceeds to turn the entire planet into his "ring"*
I've played many years in wind bands n orchestral settings... n I must say.. groupies for rock bands ain't got shite on chick's freaky for orchestra musicians...that's a whole nudda level of supafreek... seriously yall
I say sauron since we spend the most time with him. I never get tried of hearing about the army of Balrogs attacking the giant spider. I want to see that brought to life
@@TheBrokenSword Sadly, this new Amazon show will be more focused on pushing a narrative than telling the story. Balrogs will be replaced by women of color and Morgoth will be a female as well as all the heros on the other side. Diversity in Middle Earth is what you celebrate. An epic battle? Meh, secondary. Epic diversity is on full display though. So you must enjoy.
@@DirtySouthJR You mean the show will be focused on saying fuck white people and their history and yay to rank degeneracy in the form of explicit sex scenes. Just verbalize it. Stop beating around the bush.
I think that Melkor is a little fleshed out more than Sauron, but he is more of a stereotypical villain than Sauron. Melkor wants power, even his desire to create comes from a want to create beings so that they could worship him. His fall is similar to the fall of Satan, from an Angel and servant of God to fallen Angel and ruler of hell. Sauron’s desire to rule comes initially from an innocent and humble place, his love of order and distaste of chaos. What is odd about both is if they never rebelled, they both may have got what they want Melkor as the mightiest of the Valar would have ruled Arda and it’s inhabitants and Sauron would have created wondrous things, which would have helped an orderly world and presided over them in a very prominent place. Of the two, I prefer Sauron as a villain. He is more vulnerable and uses cunning and clever plans, first, where as Melkor always uses brute force first. Melkor is also unassailable by the children of Eru, even in his weakened state only the Valar are able to challenge him. Sauron can and was brought down with cooperation and a bit of luck, twice, with no direct help from the Valar.
Melkor is much more fleshed out than Sauron. He's actually Tolkien's most fleshed out villain. Sauron has 2 or 3 lines of dialogue in LOTR? He turns up in Beren Luthien and the Fall of Numenor in which he's talked about mostly. But with Melkor we spend lots of time with him. We get more dialogue from him than we do with Sauron, we get his innermost thoughts, his motivations, and we get him interacting with God, his brethren the Valar, the elves, and men. Melkor/Morgoth is more interesting and a more complete character than Sauron, and I love Sauron.
@@nwobw that is part of Sauron’s appeal, he is like the boogy man in LOTR. Melkor as I said is more a carbon copy of Lucifer. That’s not bad, it just means that he is less original to me. What trilogy of books has a main antagonist with whom no dialog is set and there are debates as to what he even looks like, yet it works, really well and it’s original.
@@jamief1263 You can call Morgoth less original or prefer Sauron. I love both. That's irrelevant to your statement. Morgoth is incredibly fleshed out. Sauron works perfectly in LOTR precisely because he isn't a character. He's a presence. Morgoth is also much more than a carbon copy of Lucifer unless you think the Silmarillion is a carbon copy of the Bible. Morgoth obviously has several parallels with Lucifer, but they're just that - parallels. Tolkien's mythology is so much more.
@@kp-legacy-5477 direct intervention is like when the Valar went to war with Melkor, twice on behalf of the peoples of middle-earth. The Istari were forbidden to match Sauron’s power with their own. The 5 that went were chosen as they were not as powerful as Sauron. Even without the ring all 5 Istari were no match for Sauron. In the end Gandalf was the chief orchestrator of Sauron’s downfall, he achieved this more by influencing, advising and inspiring people.
well he definitely kind of mimic'd the biblical stories of the fallen, if the wizards and balrogs, saurons and morgoth were all like angels made physical beings, little the angels cast from heaven or like the watchers, is like the top angels turned dark and took a high with them and like the wizards became their antithesis on middle earth. I guess as a world war 1 vet he was familiar with the concept of hell having lived though one already, is no wonder that the bad guys were led by fallen angels with goblins and orca taking the place of lesser demons like the muses that fell with the angels for taking their side in the conflict against the Creator. So it's not totally original but a great original take on an ancient theme
@@mariobergnini8897 While it's true that Tolkien’s work draws on many mythological and religious themes, to say he "mimicked" biblical stories feels like a bit of an oversimplification. Tolkien himself was a devout Catholic, so it's understandable that his beliefs would subtly influence his writing, but The Lord of the Rings and his broader legendarium pull from a much wider range of sources. He blended Norse mythology, Finnish epics, Celtic folklore, and Anglo-Saxon history, alongside his linguistic genius, to craft an entirely new mythology. The comparison of wizards and balrogs to angels is certainly interesting, but it’s a stretch to say it’s a direct retelling of biblical stories. Morgoth, for example, has some Luciferian parallels, but he’s much more complex-a rebel against the divine order, yes, but also a creator and corrupter in his own right. And while Sauron serves as his lieutenant, he’s more akin to a dark sorcerer than a fallen angel. As for World War I’s influence, Tolkien admitted that his experiences shaped his views of warfare and loss, but he was adamant that his stories were not allegories for the war. The "hell" of Middle-earth’s wars is more of a reflection of universal human struggles against evil, rather than a direct parallel to the trenches of WWI. Tolkien didn’t just repackage old themes; he synthesized them into something that feels timeless yet fresh. His world is unique because it speaks to universal truths while offering an entirely new mythology, not simply rehashing one. That’s what makes it so remarkable
In all my long years, the power and beauty, the sheer fertility, of Tolkien’s imagination has never ceased to amaze me. I’m convinced that he is one of the very few true kings of literature and will be remembered in whatever time there is to come on a par with the likes of Homer, Virgil and Dante, Chaucer, Goethe, and perhaps even Shakespeare, to a good degree. I would’ve thought all those people were impossible now, and yet he lived in our time. His themes were universal, his innate goodness manifest, his route to the heart direct, and his inspiration widespread but never equaled. We were blessed to have his works, which should “serve as a reminder of many things.”
@@jonp3890 Oh wonderful hahaah I remember her she was vaulting up the mountain and ransom was lagging behind. I thought the most amazing part in the whole book was when satan possessing devine fought ransom and satan would scratch and bite and ransom would box him. I loved both out of the silent planet and voyage to venus but "that hideous strength" kind of didnt do so well for me. Maybe I didnt read it fully through or something. Also I really loved the Hrosse in out of the silent planet.
@@jonp3890 Oh I dont know of what you speak but I will investigate. I have read mostly all of my top authors, the trinity of brilliance and thats Dostoyevsky, CS Lewis, Tolkien. Brilliant amazing writers I am so glad I read their books walking through this life. I love reading so much. DO you have any books you would suggest that I read?
My three favorite authors I have read all of their books (I think) is Doestoyesky, CS Lewis , and Tolkien. I also love the bible and so many other books. The catcher in the rye was neet and so was thorn birds. I like to stick with the power trio I just mentioned or any book thats been hailed as a classic or great I try and go for. I didnt like the great gatsby (more like the great crapsby) ........sadly I have pulled back on my reading with u tube and other addictions pulling me away from my first loves but I am still alive and so I will get back into it. Do you have any other recommendations? I got into clive barker for a while and though a talented and amazing author he is too evil/creepy for me, so is Stephen king. I have been writing most of my life and apart from a small article in the observer I have not been published. I think I may give moby dick a try. I really like the pilgrims progress too. ALso the cs lewis science fiction saga is quite awesome.
Tolkien was clearly ahead of his time. And for your question, i would say that i prefer Morgoth over Sauron because he is more of a ambitious crafter, which i find more sinister,. While Sauron is more of a manipulator who wants to corrupt and take control, much like Palpatine.
@@zekejeager2451 when Tulkas Arrived, Melkor is slightly weaker than him ( since he disperses all his power when Music of the Ainur happen ). Had Melkor had his full power while fighting the rest of the Valar ( including Tulkas ), Melkor roflstomp them all
One really cool aspect of magic in Tolkien writing is that it is more like Will, forcing one's Will over the world around them. So when two great forces go against each other they sort of cancel each other out. So when prudes say "why didn't they just do this?" The answer is "cost" the cost was too great. I love everything about this Universe.
Exactly. Even Gandalfs story is about him imposing the will of the Valar. In a much less forceful and more fatherly fashion. And therein lies his real magic or power. His ability to move the Kingdoms of men to action that no one, not even quite a few Kings and Stewards of these Kingdoms had been able to at times. Sounds like magic to me. If someone did that today you might be forgiven for thinking they've cast a spell.
Melkor is the cosmic version of a child mad that they don't get to have their favorite toy so they mess up their dad's work office out of spite. There's something so gloriously petty in what he does
Kinda. Think more like: when the child grows up to adolescence or even adulthood, and feels he's almost (or as) smart and strong as his father. He looks at what he does and thinks he can do it better. So he goes against his father's wishes and follows his own willful pride. He was second in power and knowledge only to the Creator, and he had a hubris to match
What a fantastically well researched, masterfully woven, and beautifully depicted story you have created here. I’ve watched a number of items on Melkor but have never come away with such a clear understanding of not just his chronology but also his intent (and the intent of Melkor by Areu). Thank you!
I always thought Melkor being evil was all apart of Eru's plan. Eru's creation is a song and if the world was perfect with perfect people it would be boring. Eru is playing Melkor like a fiddle to make his song interesting. All of the epic tales are because of Melkor, he is someone tied to every event in Arda.
Yes, just like purely diatonic music is harmonic, but kinda plain. Although dissonance may sound ugly when played alone (for example, the tritone) it's introduction in a harmonic context in the right places makes the music richer and more beautiful in the big picture. Tolkien just solved the problen of evil, God was just trying to compose a really cool song.
It's just a direct parallel to God and Satan. Lucifer and all angels are puppets they don't have free will that was God's gift to humanity. By that logic God literally made Lucifer rebel. The reason God and eru made evil in this way is because real beauty can't exist without discord to contrast it. Eru tells melkor as much when he says I made you as you are
@LockGrinder Bingo. That's why I prefer in our outright made up Tolkien Universe to think that Eru wasn't directly perfect in anyway. Nor does it ever really say he is at least in the Silmarillion. Primarily, I see Eru as similar but in more power as a creator than the Ainur.... as he creates the Ainur. Then he allows these things to express themselves freely and willingly... part of his enjoyment from his function... to create things other than himself separate from his own mind. But he does have overwhelming power at any point to end all existence or to intervene. The world of Arda that is first sung into song is more of a cursory thing. Then the vision to show what the Ainur had done in their own musical creations despite the various interjections of both Melkor and Eru... The vision was to demonstrate the lessons he hoped to endow them with... but instead the Ainur became in love of this reality in conflict and wanted it to literally be. So Eru allowed that to happen. The lessons of "let's all get along and have some fun" wasn't learnt. Perhaps even Eru himself doesn't understand this lesson either, and just wanted to please his offspring. In other words, even Eru isn't perfect. Or like you said, Eru is a sadist... knowing full well the misery that was about to transpire for many in this world, and that he could at any moment end such misery. I like to think too at first, Eru found Melkore fascinating and interesting. As his second theme he smiles and interjects a 2nd theme to confront Melkor's discord. I like to think of this as Eru being fascinated by new and more wonderful things that even Eru, let alone the other Ainur, hadn't even imagined. I take the piece taken from Silmarillion Eru speaks to Ulmo while they all gazed a the vision of what their music caused in some faint fleeting reality as it was just a vision: And Ilúvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: ‘Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of thy clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwë, thy friend, whom thou lovest.’ Then Ulmo answered: ‘Truly, Water is become now fairer than my heart imagined, neither had my secret thought conceived the snowflake, nor in all my music was contained the falling of the rain. I will seek Manwë, that he and I may make melodies for ever to thy delight!’ And Manwë and Ulmo have from the beginning been allied, and in all things have served most faithfully the purpose of Ilúvatar. Melkor was not fully evil, at least not at first. He was just a fool. And in his foolishness actually devised things of great beauty and added to positive wonderment of the world. Over time though, Melkor's stubbornness and pure stupidity derived possibly from his arrogance and ego that could not stand to be corrected, that is the evil we see drive him into the darkness that causes misery for so many. Anyway, I see Eru as a creator being that can give new independent thoughts into new beings. Not all powerful. And not all knowing either. If he were, than he'd be just a sadist. And I don't like my fantasy fiction to be headed in the good guys by a sadist at their heart. Like the God of Abraham or so many other all powerful gods..... The Greek Pantheon of various levels of divinity makes more sense as far as these magical things are learning too. Therefore they're not all good nor all evil. And the good comes from their responses to stupidity aka evil. And none really set to be pure all evil, nor necessarily all pure good either. But to enjoy their time and experience their own emotions... some learn from their lessons developing what we aspire to as good such as compassion and healing and joy and others find joy in hurting of others... becoming sociopaths. And some predisposed to being psychopaths ie. not able to sense empathy.... again they are not made perfectly. Not even Eru. Which makes sense to for why else would Eru have need to create the Ainur anyway to create worlds that are? He could just do it all himself. And in the intervention of misery or hints at misery, he could intervene before the misery took place. And if it were simply a lesson for an independently minded being he caused to be, he could just show them a vision and less intense simulation of the cause and effect that resulted in the "wrong" answer ie the misery to hopefully induce the person to develop a better character and make better future choices as not to get the "wrong" answer ie the misery. He doesn't. So Eru isn't perfect. And neither are any creations of his or his creations' creations. It's a learning process of finding ones self suddenly being. And sensing all the emotions that comes from being. And what does one do with this sense of being. What can be done with it? And what is best to be done with being? Or is it better never have been at all? Is the perpetual emptiness of the void, the absence of everything better? And in being, is there anyway one can forgo any mistakes and failures of stupidity? Probably not. Therefore there will be misery. Just as in linear time, there is always a cause and effect... and an effect does not proceed the cause... or one of something added to another one of something makes two quantities of the same something. Positive happiness and negative misery unhappiness is fundamental to any reality. And the objective is to learn from the misery as to avoid it, and make even more wonderful the joy that is possible of reality. To come from dumbness to smartness. We are all dumb when we come into being. It is up to us to become enlightened. Or succumb to our own stupidity and the misery it brings.
What I like is that, Melkor is but another aspect of Eru's thought. The most powerful. It's almost as if Eru placed all is negativity and will to dominate in this one entity to keep it in check. To protect his 'song' from that part of himself; he created the other Valar to keep the song in balance. So; to the Ainu and the Children, Melkor is an antagonist. As for Eru: Melkor is the most powerful aspect of his being and needs all his other aspects/avatars/Vala to keep him in check before he destroys and corrupts the benevolent parts of Eru and ultimately, Eä itself.
@@xadomlollp Why not? The Bible is vague enough on Heavenly/Hellish matters that a similar interpretation is feasible, and many theologians also speculate that Lucifer/The Snake may infact be the manifestation of The Darkness of God's Good.
Sir. This take is very perverse and even though to randoms might seem plausible it isn’t. God Doesn’t have darkness within. He gave free Will to his creatures both angelic, Human. Lucifer chose in his heart to rebel. In tolkiens context so did Melkor. He freely did as he pleased. He chose to be “dark”.
@@xadomlollp but these are just my thoughts-not Tolkiens'. I sometimes form my own thoughts and opinions on pieces of literature and other arts, despite the creators' intent.
@@masanmasan8293 he was dark. Satan was dark, they were created that way. Just as how Manwe was created to be noble and good. But Melkor/Satan both chose to act according to their nature. A nature that was created by one supreme being from which EVERYTHING springs. When that being expels every aspect that desires and needs(all the Vala and Children have a need or want) you are left with complete purity. Humans would liken it to being 'enlightened' or experiencing 'Nirvana' Which is why I think Eru cannot be corrupted since he already fulfilled his needs when he created the Ainur. He gave life, thought and shape to his aspects that wanted, needed and desired and once he did; he was no longer alone and did not want or desire; he leaves that to his creations and aspects.That desire he had is not dissimilar to Melkor's desire to create, rule and dominate over his own realm. Thing is; Melkor sees no farther than his own thoughts because they are but a miniscule aspect of the full and good thoughts of Eru. To become infallible, one must first expell all their wants, needs and desires; the good and the bad.
The curse of Melkor upon Hurin is pretty bogus. But I think it goes to illuminate his weakness more than anything. Here's a vala, the mightiest of them, and he's wasting his power over a petty curse on the progeny of a single man.
To be fair, it did lead to the destruction of one or two first age Elvish kingdoms. I wouldnt say it was a complete waste, more a devious means of destroying his enemies with the help of their own friends.
bogus implies fake, but it was very real the malice of a Valar has power but its stupid. look at the bad karma. but thats the nature of evil it takes pleasure in causing suffering and that's why LoTR is so great unlike other series where evil wins
@@thecappeningchannel515 I meant bogus as in making the man watch his line fall apart like that was bogus. How he did the man was bogus. Just the nature of it was petty and should be below such beings.
Interesting note on Tulkas. He technically is not one of the Valar. He came to them in the first war as a mighty spirit, and hearing war on the tiny world, rejoiced and joined them in their fight. After the events of the war he became their champion and basically was inducted as a Valar due to his great deeds. He then espouced Orome's sister. Pretty badass!
I've always wanted to see a good rendition of the Duel of Fingolfin v. Morgoth *And* Ecthelion killing Gothmog before the Fountain of Gondolin. Both are epic fights.
Would be a perfect project for an independent animator. Live action Hollywood does not suit the grandeur of Tolkien's world, the LOTR movies were good not great, and the hobbit movies were atrocious butcherings of it. Fingoldin is one of my favorite characters in all of Tolkien's works
@@anthonysantos3629 the sad part is the abomination that is the rings of power actually made the hobbit series look great. At least the Hobbit was made in the spirit of Tolkien's work. ROP is an absolute abomination...
With the Void being there before Ea and Eru being the entity which can comfortably exist in both, I like to think Morgoth's fate was much less lonely than we may have been led to believe. Once through the Doors of Night, there's nothing stopping Eru from visiting him at his leisure. The purpose of Melkor was to have some knowledge of all of Eru's thoughts, basically a sounding board. I like the idea that Eru visits every so often, chatting about the world, his thoughts, Ea. Melkor has no choice but to endure this, and, with endless solitude being the alternative, I hope in time comes to enjoy their chats. I wouldn't be surprised if, after so many seconds in eternity, Melkor eventually comes to understand Eru and his place in the design. In doing so, ironically, he would have had greater vision, understanding and wisdom than anything he could have achieved in Ea and thus become more powerful than he had desired. I can see Melkor shaping his own, tiny creations in the Void with nothing but him, them and the light of Illuvatar. In that, I think he would find peace and the innate goodness he could never find in Ea or amongst the other Valar.
Better technology doesn't mean there are better practices to actually make a good movie. Humans still write and make it, so, it would only be visually good, hopefully. Loq
It's really cool that you credit the artists for thier work during the video themselves. So many either don't bother or put a small list at ends of videos that no one reads. Good on you for supporting artists
I believe that Melkor is, like all the Ainur, a manifestation of a part of Illúvatar. This being a more ambitious, passionate and emotional side with a desire to control everything from Illúvatar. I find it to be quite similar to the story of the fallen angel.
It does have a very god/satan parallel going to it. Satan was an angel in charge of the choir of singing the praises of god, but instead wanted to praise himself.
Oh and to answer your question: Sauron. Melkor, without question, was the more powerful of the two but look at his motivation. All he wanted to do was to fluster and destroy anything that wasn't all about him. He was ultimately just a petulant and spoilt child. Sauron, at least at the start, wanted to order all things and grew frustrated that others couldn't or wouldn't share his vision. As a Maiar of Aule, he wanted to create and shape and build a perfect world. There is something relatable and commendable in wanting to better yourself and others and that makes Sauron more compelling I think.
I’m reading the Silmarillion again now and found it hard the first time. This snack sized version is great. He is Melkor to me to answer the question. I also think as evil and dire as his actions are, Eru knows that they are part of him as much as the good is too so allows it to play out. Thank you for this.
That's soo cool. I haven't had time to study Tolkien's lesser know works, but as you're telling this story, I can see in my mind where Tolkien drew inspiration. Malkor & Angoliant at the trees reminded me of the Nidthenhogr gnawing at the roots of Yggdrasil in Norse Mythology. Judeo/Christian creation story is merged with Greek Gods, and Norse monsters. The art work is soo nice to have.
In all of humanities fiction, few are as great in their evil and power as Melkor. He was the first true dark lord in our modern time of literature, and the first evil in Tolkien's realm. Sauron would be nothing without him. The fact that he dwells within the timeless void makes him a perfect villain for some great future work. An ancient, timeless cosmic being residing in the void waiting to return. It is almost Lovecraftian - but older and greater.
Older and greater? The Silmarillion was published 1977, with the first scripts dating back to the 1920s.. and with Tolkien starting to polish them and write more after 1937. Which is also the year Lovecraft died... who wrote his first stories 1897. So, tell me again which stories are older 😉
I'm sorry, but I don't think you know what Lovecraft's horrors are, if you think that. Cthulhu, even though he is pretty much as close to being dead as a cosmic entity in the Mythos can be, breaks the minds of mortals by the mere act of SLEEPING. Like, even his dreams are so potent, they can drive people to madness miles away from his body. He's weakened, he's slumbering and he's recuperating, yet he's passively bringing the world to ruin... And he's not even in the top 10. He's a lesser entity. I love Tolkien's work, but saying Morgoth is older and greater than Lovecraftian horrors is just false. Pretty much every single Outer God in the Mythos would be equal, if not stronger, than Eru himself, let alone Morgoth.
@@MrKoraboras Depends on the cosmology. I don't really care too much about powerscaling between different fictional divine beings. My take is that Melkor is not Lovecraftian in the sense that he's basically a manchild with cosmic powers; you can understand his actions. Lovecraftian horrors are usually incomprehensible and inscrutable (with the exception of Nyarlathotep).
@@dmin5782 I just dislike the comparison. Tolkien and Lovecraft had entirely different settings and the powerscaling is a bit counter-productive because of it, true, but let's be honest here... The main difference between Tolkien and Lovecraft, setting and style aside, is that Lovecraft's work is characterised by hopelessness, and Tolkien's by hope. In Middle Earth, you can prevail over the evil, corruptive forces. In Tolkien's universe, you can at most stall it, at the cost of your sanity. And there are always more. That's why I think Morgoth is weaker. He's supposed to be Satan - powerful, mighty but possible to resist. Lovecraft's creations are supposed to be despair and hopelessness in an uncaring universe. With a lot of effort you can deny them momentarily, but ultimately, they'll always be there.
Sauron doesn't do much in the third age, his deceptions are more explicit in the second age. Whereas Morgoth in the first age is more like the ancient stories that permiate our societies.
I will always call him Morgoth Bauglir! I would call him craven. If only Ungoliant had destroyed him. Watching Tunuviel lull him to sleep was absolutely outstanding. Keep up the great work Mellon! P.S. ECTHELION!!
I really enjoyed this video, Morgoth is officially my favorite villain in all of Tolkien’s lore. I really wish we get a live action film adaptation in the future because this is amazing
I always thought of Melkor as individuality, chaos, freedom. The other Ainur were just doing as they were told and conformed. Eru wanted Melkor to sow chaos, because with it out there would no life and no creativity. Melkor was essential.
You're right. Melkor, at least initially, was the embodiment of energy, change, dynamics, and contrast. And for those things to exist in a reality, you cannot have perfection.
He's the living embodiment of: "Good intentions, bad person, intentions have been carried out badly" And the fact that I can relate to that is a serious problem. I don't think it can get worse after you're able to relate with Tolkien's version of Satan 💀
@@EdricLysharae Don't mind me writing a huge comment expressing my toughts of this :) Those things also existed in Eru, and since Eru took a specific corner of his mind and made each Vala's personality resebling that corner, he took those traits and put the into Melkor. The problem with that was that he didn't put in anything else, and even tho those traits can be quite good, they get horrible if they're the only ones, some examples: -Confidence, confidence is great, but witout self awareness and admitation towards others it becomes arrogance, Melkor is probably the most arrogant guy out there. -Ambition, ambition is great, but without gratidude it becomes an endless lust for power and success, again that's very Melkor. -Creativity, creativity is great, but without a general line that divides objectively right and objectively wrong, a creative person becomes a psycopath. Eru didn't need to set the general line with any other Ainur since they lacked creativity and any other "human" trait, they were all perfect and innocent. Heck, we could say Melkor was the one that most resembled an actual human being in terms of personality before he went mad. (Well the other Ainur had some creativity, but we could argue Melkor's was above avarage, like everything else about him, this chatacter gives us some background to why smart people are either saints or very bad people). However with Melkor that line was more than necessary, we didn't get no line so we got a reckless monster instead, could have been avoided if only Eru wasn't a lazy parent and a megalomanistic sadist (oh look I also just described Melkor, that's the guy who made him after all lol). Essentially Eru forgot to add tomato sauce to a pizza, a pizza without tomato sauce is not a pizza (well ig it is it's just not that type of pizza and i can't think of a better analogy). With the tomato sauce being personality traits such as humility, modesty, patience, gratidude, selflessness etc, and the pizza being Melkor. Eru was THIS close to creating the greatest being to have ever existed after him, buuut he forgot some parts and made a moster, he also proceeded to be a crappy parent and here we are. Also, can we talk about Nienna? Because her (and Melkor's) sole existence should make everyone question about Eru's moral code, if it exists that is. I mean he really did go to the depressed corner of his mind and made a being condamned to suffer for her entire life? Not that any of this defends Melkor's actions of course, he's still pretty happy to commit them even tho they happen because Eru said so. Honestly the Ainulindale (ik i wrote that wrong) is a very underrated part of the Silm, we get to explore philosophical concepts and get introduced to Melkor's very interesting character, I mean he's an absolute butthole, but a likable one nonetheless, best kind of villains i'd argue.
But there was life and creativity without Melkor. And the other Ainur acted according to their nature. It's telling that Melkor's "freedom" could only be realized in destruction.
@@crabbieappleton his main personality trait wasn't creativity, it was control. Both things already existed in Eru (and so did all the Valar's main personality traits). Yeah homie wasn't the best person ever even when he spawned lol
I know beleriand sunk. But only after seeing the maps in 34:01 I understand the massiveness of the destructions. Imagine how much more interesting it will be in the story of rings if belleriand still exist with all its history and people.
Tolkien himself would have Loved these videos....i love them....Please...keep making them...there are So Many stories yet to tell....don't ever stop....Extremely Excellent work!! Very Appreciated! Thank You So Much!
THE VALAR Of course I want to know how they physically manifested!!! :D I ran across your videos just a day or so ago and, since then, the lore has been stirring in my head ceaselessly; the possible metaphors, allegories, archetypes, and parallells with other literature, etc... It puzzles me a bit why things like this attract such intrinsic focus from me... But I'm too engaged with the worthlessly mundane real world (not sarcasm) to read the source material for myself in its entirety (and I don't read quickly... Slowly soaking up fantastic lore is a time-eater that I get way too addicted to). THANK YOU
I like the story of Melkor and would love to see this adapted to a series and or movie. Even animated if need be. But true to the source and not weaponized agendas.
I’ve watched this video maybe 10 times. Can’t get enough Melkor! I honestly hope we get to see him on screen someday. Like an actual Silmarillian movie if they ever sell the rights…🤦
Maybe after 2040 when they are public domain, I would think they'd have made a move to sell them to Amazon (or the others companies who were fighting for it) during the bidding war if they were ever going to. It's a shame but I do get it. I wouldn't wanna sell it unless I really truly believe the buyer in question could do it justice.
There is a part in Morgoth's ring clarifying that Morgoth's body may have been destroyed and his spirit cast into the void, the Silmarillion itself being somewhat sparse on detail at points. As a villain I prefer Sauron. Melkor is a pretty uncomplicated individual - not being able to create he just has to destroy. That's fine and all but its a monomania that I don't think would be as interesting to see play out as Sauron's story. Sauron by comparison believes he is the best to rule, to bring order. There is potentially loads of grey there to be explored, and it is his path to destruction. Intentions he sees as good dragging him further down a hole until all means justify the ends. At some point the two dark lords would have had to diverge too, another example of how evil destroys itself in Tolkien's world.
The silmarillion was made to be a movie. The book has many parts that deserve a cinematic story telling perspective and plenty of epic action to make you read the book multiple times. It’s a gem of a book actually. I don’t know if I will be alive to see another pj like loftrs. 😢
Who should play Morgoth then, I vote for either Mark Hamill, Christian Bale, Kevin Michael Richardson, Jonathan Adams, Ralph Fiennes, Ray Porter, Ron Perlman, Robert Englund, or Tony Todd.
@@chadpeterson5698 Not an American; someone from UK, Ireland or Norway that has been to a great acting school. I’m trying of mediocre schooled actors. Forgot to say, don’t change the author’s story…it’s great because of the author’s mind, not some studio employee.
It's not the type of book that really works as a movie frankly. It can absolutely be adapted, but if it was to be adapted, it would need to be a TV show. Perhaps you could turn The Tale of Beren and Luthien, The Children of Hurin, and The Fall of Gondolin into a trilogy/companion movies to a show. But because of the way the rest of the novel is constructed, it really wouldn't work as "movies"
Here's a long read, but honestly, I wish it'll change your view of Melkor and popularize the idea that Eru just needed Melkor to instill change. Eru stated that Melkor is His instrument. All evil in this world has a purpose devised by Eru. Eru needed a force of death, aging, sickness, illness to give value to beauty, life, and good. When Melkor and Sauron were both defeated and the 4th Age began, the world grew old, the Valar became tired, the mountains dulled. Eru therefore devised Melkor to return to the world at the end of the 4th age, and gave him enough might to embroil the world in a final war that will break the world so that Eru may begin the second Ainulindale, and create a second Ea, more beautiful than the first. Melkor is simply playing his role that Eru devised and foresaw. You have to realize that Middle Earth is populated by immortal beings, but the Valar, Maiar, Elves do age, they get tired. Even the Elves have three life cycles of aging. So if there was no force of evil and death, these beings will all age and become decrepit and tired. Therefore, Melkor isn't an agent of evil, he's actually an agent of *change*. By instilling death, disease, and cold weather, he gives value to time, by killing the old, so that the new and fresh can be born. He gives *value to time*. You have to also realize that Tolkien was an old man when he wrote these books. He definitely felt the effects of aging and tiredness. And a lot of Tolkien's writing very much focuses on how nice life was in its younger days, which makes sense coming from an old man. So Melkor, by bringing disease and death, is simply providing 'change' in a world of beings that live through time. In summary, let us not think of Melkor as the chief agent of evil, but instead as Eru's instrument, and that Eru is the one who needed an agent of death, so that the new can be born, and change may be brought to the world. Eru isn't a distant spectator, he's the one who created Melkor and allowed him to wreak havoc, and never once stopped him (which he definitely could have in an instant, as we saw Eru intervene viciously when the Numenoreans tried sailing West to Valinor), because Eru needed Melkor to play his part.
"I was the first and will be the last. We were born naturally immortal, then I think, the universe decided that to appreciate life, there must be death. So the younger races, grew old, and died. For only a life that is transitory can appreciate something as simple as love, it maybe the greatest gift your race has ever received". - Lorien, when explaining immortality to Ivoniva. Babylon 5. Love how great writing will give a nod hear and there to other great writing.
I loved when you decided to start calling Melkor, Morgoth lol it was such a interesting and cool way to bring me more into the story. Especially after hearing the reasoning and story of what had previously happened 👌 I personally thought that was a nice choice to do 😇
I wrote a thesis in college on Melkor, and the fact that he is actually a protagonist and could be seen as the good guy of the Tolkien-Verse. Tolkien establishes that his universe is pre-deterministic, meaning that there are prophecies and the way things will happen is pre-determined. Melkor was made by Eru to live in a hellish existence, whereas his ambition was to rule over creation. All of his actions are to defy his hellish fate, and to become the "god" figure of the verse, to rule over creation. He has to recreate it in a hellish image to do so, but really his story is about trying to overcome his creator who damned him to exist in a terrible state and universe.
Illuvitar: So you think you did that by yourself? Everything you ever did was because I ordained it to be. Melkor: ... wait so I'm an evil sack of garbage because you made me like that? Illuvitar: Yes. But the next world I make will be good and free of evil. Melkor: Dad, can I talk to you in private?
What Eru actually said was that Melkor's music, though intent on discord, actually weaves into His (Eru's) as intended. Melkor's music ends up being the component responsible for mountains and volcanoes on land and tides in the ocean. That's the context of that statement
@@Anglomachian not "want". Anticipate. A trait you'll notice regarding Eru is that He does not inhibit free will, regardless of His feelings on the subject. When one of the Valar blatantly overruled His will and secretly created Dwarves before the destined Firstborn (Elves) and Men emerged, He didn't stop the Valar at any point, even though that was a most grave offense. He only confronted the Valar when he was done, and still didn't destroy his creations. In fact, he gave them true life, as opposed to the automaton-like state they were in before. Because even discord does not disrupt His will, it just plays into it eventually via an alternative route
@@Melqhii you’ll notice that in that story of that valar creating the dwarves, Eru knew about it, and required the valar to perform an act of subservience before he permitted him to keep the dwarves. No, the way I see it is Eru knew all that would happen and didn’t act to stop any of it, but wants a second world that will be free of it. Which means he has the ability to create such a world, which means he has the ability to make the present one like that, and doesn’t. Therefore, he created Melkor as he is, with the intention that he do what he does. I see no free will in this.
trying to read the religiously old-language written Silmarillion while listening to Blind Guardian's blatant sometimes cheesy but very lovable melodic metal music would give me a brain sprain. but I'm not stopping you. ;)
Obviously this is Tolkien's metaphor for The Garden of Eden in scripture--Tolkien being a devout Catholic. According to Genesis, God created the angels before his six day completion of Earth. Lucifer was explicitly superior to all other angels. Lucifer looked upon himself and perceived that he was beautiful, perfect, and quantifiably the most poweful angel--but he had to look away from his creator to do so. Lucifer had every reason to become jealous of Iluvatar--er YHWH--because God's power was infinite, and therefore incomprehensible to Lucifer--i.e. it seemed to him to be suspiciously transcendent, or illusory, or fraudulent. Lucifer rebelled and seduced one-third of the angels to join his insurrection. I.e. Lucifer sang his powerful-yet-finite, seductively discordant song. And God cast Lucifer and his corrupted cadre to the newly-created earth. Then God created Adam and Eve. Resentful Lucifer disguised himself as the beautiful, all-wise dragon-serpent, and told Eve: "[If you eat from the tree] You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” This is the first, primary, secondary, perpetual, and penultimate lie of the evil one: that Man could be like God; that the created could usurp the throne of The Creator. This was the calamitous flaw and fatal mistake of both Lucifer and Melkor: that they believed they could transcend their albeit powerful finiteness--their status as a created beings--and become like their creators, the beings of infinite, singular characteristics, YHWH (God) or Iluvatar. And this is The Lie that was passed on to us and to the creatures of Middle Earth: that we or they could be like God or Iluvatar. That is also the metaphysical kernel of truth which explains the irresistible, infernal seduction of The Ring of Power in LOTR. But in the real world, every one of us must figure out how to cast that ring into the fires of Mount Doom. (HINT: no finite, created being can do it--but our own Iluvatar can do it for us if we confess your own insufficiency and ask for help. And it is often as embarrassing to us as the necessity of a Gollum.
If God was all knowing, then why didn't he foresee that Adam and Eve will be deceived by Lucifer? Why didn't he stop Lucifer before he could talk to Adam and Eve? Why didn't he isolate the Tree so that Adam and Eve couldn't get to it? Also, if God was all knowing and all powerful, then why did Lucifer rise against him? Did Lucifer not know God well enough to realize that his attempt at rebellion is pointless and doomed to failure? Or perhaps God is not all knowing nor all powerful, and Lucifer knew that even God can be fooled and toppled.
@@sygmarvexarion7891 The answer is so simple as to render your question foolish and low-IQ: He foresaw it all--and foresaw that He would come to earth as a mere man and redeem them all through his death on the cross, and then be resurrected, proving his transcendental deity, and then return to Earth, crushing you and your evil father beneath his heel, and sit on the throne in the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, ruling all the earth with an iron sceptre for a thousand years. Read the Bible, dumpling.
@@robinthehood9720 Well...Sygmar, anyway. Dunno about the "racist" accusation. Edit: oh wait...are there other comment threads like this? I might have to rewatch the vid and read more comments.
Melkor seems mostly spiteful and evil for evil's sake. Sauron is a much more interesting and complex villain, despite also going the "dark lord"-route.
Perhaps Eru wanted Morgoth to cause all of this destruction. Morgoth would serve as the adversary that the rest of his children could then struggle against. An experience of perfect paradise would be boring, but an experience punctuated by struggle would be worthwhile.
Morgoth is a better big baddest evil villain since he is just evil. Sauron is a much more interesting character since it's very much possible to argue that he is not evil and his end goal would be better for most people, but the way to get there is the questionable part.
I think one of the things that sets Melkor apart from other Ainur is that he is pluripotent. The Silmarillion says he had a fair share of all his brothers' powers. It seems to me that Melkor would act as the chaotic and entropic aspect of several elements of Ëa: Aule participated in the "ordely" geological formation of Earth, whereas Melkor would act as seismic-destructive activies in Arda. The Ainur, in the great music, would be a kind of "Demiurgos/Demiurges" who perfomed the so-called "Creation of Concepts" that form Ëa: Energy, matter, light, darkness, gravity, life, death, etc. Quote from the Parma Eldalamberon XVII: "These fanar they (Ainur) assumed when after their demiurgic activities they came and dwelt in Arda (the realm), that is the Earth; and they did so because of their love for the chieldren of Eru, for whon they were to prepare the world, and for a time to govern;" And: “And as is known well, the prime among these is Melkor. Measureless as were the regions of Ea, yet in the Beginning, where he could have been Master of all that was done…” Morgoth’s Ring And: "Even in his diminishment the power of Melkor is beyond our calculation. ~ the Marring of Arda, and comes of the Shadow, and of the taint of Melkor that touches all the matter (or hroa)(8) of Arda, if not indeed of all Ea." In that case "the morgoth ingredient/element" was dispersed in the universe/Eä (galaxies, planets, stars). That would explain the entropy, the cosmic indifference and the death of the universe. The entire universe is then the Morgoth's Ring. If the Morgoth's ingredient is the instrument for the decay and destruction of all matter, it means that the children of Ilúvatar who will sing the creation of a new unblemished universe/Eä will not be just those of Arda. It will be cosmic music with many "others" in many places of the Universe.
21:14: "...their created name of Morgoth was more suited. And so, that is now how I shall refer to him for the remainder of his story." [20 seconds later] 21:34: "This irks Melkor." (Gave me a good chuckle--cool video!)
Not a massive fan of Tolkein but I can understand why people are so mad at the rings of power after listening to this. Just the most incredible world building and story telling. Just lol at in any way trying to cannibalise or bastardise this work.
Excellent video. Thank you taking time to share your knowledge. I’m currently rereading *The Silmarillion* . I want to finish it one last time before Amazon’s Lord of the Rings “prequel” series (or whatever it is going to be) is finally aired. I wanted to experience Tolkien’s story one last time while Amazon’s interpretation doesn’t exist. Cheers mate and once again THANK YOU!
@@GullibleTarget Funny you should mention this as I am actually planning on starting it today! I bought the audio book (read by Martin Shaw) for myself for Christmas! I’m really excited and will take your endorsement as further proof it was money well spent. Thank you!!
Excellent spill I have always wanted more knowledge of the Universe created by Tolkien and I stumbled upon your channel after watching the Hobbit Trilogy over the weekend. I would enjoy a video about Valar. Keep up the excellent work!
"And he descended upon Arda in power and majesty greater than any other of the Valar , as a mountain that Wade's in the sea and has its head above the clouds and is clad in ice and crowned with smoke and fire; and the light of the eyes of Melkor was like a flame that withers with heat and pieces with a deadly cold." -- The Silmarilion, "Ainulindale"
It's a stark contrast to what he would eventually become, begging for his life before being dragged out of Angband with his crown turned into a collar.
Yes! I love the descriptions of the Vala! Particularly that of Ulmo and ofcourse, Melkor. Yes; I call him Melkor. Feänor was getting a bit cocky and behaved a lot like Melkor; taking from what someone else has created(the light of the trees)and guarding it fiercely and not sharing.
Can you do a video discussing the content that what changed or cut out entirely from the Silmarillion and the other “Canon” works. Ideas and concepts Tolkien thought about putting in but changed his mind or rejected.
I love how the three songs during creation reflect the different ages of light in the world. The valar literally sung the theme of the world's history even before they became a part of it.
That final battle thing is just directly Ragnarok. I knew of Tolkien's inspiration from norse mythology, but I did not know there was that idea so directly inspired. Very good video! as someone who's never ever going to make it through the Silmarillion (nor, indeed, even LOTR), but loves the lore, it is great to have someone on youtube to explain it all very clearly!
On the final question: A movie series featuring some of the events of the Silmarillion and with Malkor/Morgoth as the antagonist would be awesome. In theory. Would it be _better_ than the Lord of the Rings with Sauron as the antagonist remains to be seen. The Lord of the Rings was a completed story written in three novels. The screen writers just needed to not fuck it up. And they did a pretty damn good job of it in my opinion. I'm not going to quibble about the battle of Helm's Deep and the replacement of Elrond and Glorfindel with Arwen at the Ford of Bruinen... Some edits, like the removal of Tom Bombadil, can only serve to remove unnecessary characters and tighten up the plot and story arc. The Silmarillion was a fairly disjoined history of past events, with a fair amount of self-contradiction and incompleteness included. We've all seen what happens when a series based on an author's published works has to go it alone when those works are not complete **cough** GoT **cough**. And we've seen what happens when a movie or series of movies is made using scant works from the original author and must add much to that work in order to fill the proposed trilogy **cough** The Hobbit **cough** Sauron was after all not really the antagonist of the Lord of the Rings. A shocking declaration, perhaps, but he was far more a MacGuffin antagonist just as the One Ring was itself a MacGuffin. He didn't *do* much of anything, he simply was, and the story flowed around him. Saruman and Sauron's direct lieutenants such as the Ring Wraiths and orcs were far more involved in and relevant to the story.
SealMarIllIon, and while am at it, its MARDA ,not Arda , ToolCash is your master not mine and you think ManYous not I excuses said Seals till i bash you like one
I have a very tiny bit of pity for Melkor. If Eru had created him the way he was, then not only was he ment to bring evil, but also it is questionable to what degree his actions are his own (basically free will vs predeterminism). Which led me to the conclusion that not only was what he tried ment to fail but He was specifically created and set up to fail so that he, by his failure would play his part in the world. But as i said, it is only a tiny bit of pity...
I think the idea is that he had free will and that whatever he did, just like all the other characters I'd incorporated into the final picture which Eru has control over to end for the good, whatever evil his beings do, Eru will turn it for good.
Most worlds need balance. He brought a balance to the world of middle earth in a way. While in other ways he pushed for different races to work together, become stronger and advance to be able to defeat what he brought to the table. You need a little misery to truly appreciate what you have in life. It seems to me like he was designed to be exactly who he was and create the problems he did. He was allowed to play his part and was put away when the time was right to bring in someone else who would continue the circle. Tolkien’s next stories seemed ready to again continue the circle and it seems like a cycle that world was meant to run every few hundred years.
Thank you so much for your absolute great video! At times the story put chills down my spine. Such great storywriting! You talk in a very clear and great way too, hope you continue with this for the years to come!
Melkor has to be the better evil of Tolkien's world as he's the only entity in the entirety of Tolkien's universe that dared challenge Eru Iluvatar himself. Sauron, no matter how bold and daring, never dreamed of challenging a foe clearly superior to him. Melkor on the other hand simply had no fear in him to hold him back. After all evil can never truly win until they become the most powerful entity of all, and that means in Tolkien's universe finding a way to somehow surpass Eru Iluvatar or at the very least undo all that he did. Sauron could never reach such heights, Melkor arguably could if only his drawbacks didn't hinder him from doing so.
Morgoth is interesting, and obviously very powerful and very dangerousl, but I think Sauron was more dangerous in a way, as he was more patient cunning, deceptive and inspired more blind loyalty. But sucked at battle unlike Morgoth, just imagine how dangerous it'd be if they had properly worked together as equals and had the strongest traits of the other, they'd be pretty much unstoppable.
No I think Morgoth was more dangerous. He did a lot more damage and killed more kings. He was allied with ungoliant who is Shelobs mom who is a shapeshifting demon. He had balrogs fight for him. I can go on but trust me bro, Melkor was more dangerous
THE VALAR!! I always thought tolkien did a cut and paste with the Greek gods, manwe-zeus god of air, Ulmo-poseidon god of the seas, tulkas-aries God of war, ect
Its been a few decades since I read the Silmarillion, but I am pretty sure that you left out a crucial detail. As far as I remember it was Ungolianth who was the cause of it all. She was the foreign element that entered from the void and started her dissent by whispering into Melkhors ears and giving him bad ideas which then led to him singing his own tune and starting all the turmoil.
Wrong Ungoliant was just a small part of the evil Melkor did before becoming weak (Morgoth) she is nothing compared to him in his full power (she just part of him)
![The History of Morgoth [COMPILATION] | Tolkien Explained](/img/n.gif)
I'm curious, when you think of this character, do you mainly call him 'Melkor' or 'Morgoth'?? I hope you all enjoy the video :D
Morgoth, he has the most simularities with that name, rather than Melkor
MORGOTH
Melgoth. No, wait, Morkor.
To me, once he properly establishes himself in Arda he becomes Morgoth. I think that would be a fitting moment for him to renounce his divinity under Eru and assume his new identity, and for the children of Iluvatar to stop seeing him as a sort of wayward brother, finally seeing him as their enemy and a threat to their creations.
Morgoth. Am I mistaken, though isn't it written, that he is to return yet again?
"That sure is a nice Arda ya got there, would be a shame if somethin' happened to it..."
- Melkor
This comment is underrated
No matter how goth you are - Melkor is Morgoth.
Hilarious and original
Bruh 🤣🤣🤣🤣
😂😂😂
Hahaha
😂😂😂 Epic comment
Eru not only knew Melkor's thoughts, but made it clear to Melkor that everything he did was part of Eru's plan from the begining, that Melkor had no autonomy but was merely an instrument of Eru's will, like all of the Ainur, and could never be anything else. This is clear in the text of the Silmarillion.
Tolkien is pointing out an interesting conundrum in Christian lore about the angels/ first one's is that they had far more power, were Immortal , but yet had very little free will ...they stood in the presence of Eru ( God ) and did his will as instructed .. Morgoth ( a clear analogy for Lucifer/ Satan ) was the first one with the pride to say : wait , I want to do what I want to do..
By expressing his free will, he became the First Agent of Chaos - but were his decisions/ free will ever truly free if they were always foreseen according to Eru' s ( God's ) plan ?
Ergo, did God create Evil thru his Agent ?
@@aaronhumphrey2009 create scapegoat, pass blame. God/Eru is a politician for sure.
@@aaronhumphrey2009 I wish people stopped thinking Milton's Satan is Christianity's satan
So, doesn't that make Eru the real dark lord?
@@logicplague That would depend on your view of divinity. The Christian god is a celebrated baby murderer yet billions proclaim it as all that is good. It's all kind of subjective.
Cinema isn’t ready for how epic these stories are. One day we will see it brought to screens and people will be in awe at Tolkien once again.
Not with Amazon at the wheel.
@@anonymousanon8412 I was going to say. Modern political correctness doesn't permit the idea of evil. The film adaptation will make the orcs an oppressed minority and Morgoth the misunderstood gay hero.
@@SevenThunderful It permits the idea of evil if they are a white male.
@@SevenThunderful "Sauron is hot I can fix him" homosexual 'superfan'
@@SevenThunderful "Modern political correctness"? LOL It allows for evil in an individual but not a species. Choice. Not inante evil.
Now Melkor on the other hand is an individual and the source of all Evil. The problem with modern multimedia, it doesn't make for a nuanced character by modern drama correctness standards. People want Magnetos and Thanos that from a certain narrow perspective they are just doing what they think is right. Melkor is created narcissist, asocial and petty. A growing malevolence as time meets temperature to make capital "E" Evil. His Evil solidified but secret before he descended into Arda I assume.
It can be done. There is no sympathetic side to Sauron and those films, and those books were successful. The upcoming TA movies will probably be Sauron's Lt, the Witch King, and I doubt even with cut scenes to the past while they try to have you sympathize with the resulting Ringwraith. They will make you know this was a man with some honor who fell for the hope to live longer and became trapped between life and death.
Evil is permitted today if it's done well even if motivation can't be sympathized with.
Would be spectacular to watch a movie about Margoth and how Sauron turned out to be his right hand. And even more!
i guess, but i don’t think it would be very eventful since a lot of this happened through the whole spiritual connection thing
@@Lucario9d that would just be the first few scenes. After this there was a lot of “in person” battles and stories to be told.
Sauron switched Valar-patrons due to the affinity between himself and Melkor's areas of expertise (originally Sauron was pledged to a different Valar).
@@kooldudematt1 Yeah, he was Aule's Maia at first, and Tolkien states how Aule and Melkor were actually pretty similiar (maybe they even got along before the great theme, but that's just headcanons since we don't get any implicit or explicit hint at that). So it makes sense Sauron switched Vala at a certain point.
If The Rings of Power is a success tv-wise, maybe the estate will sell Silmarillion. Then we can look forward to literally years of good viewing. The tech to bring it to life is there and just the Ainulindalë could do a season, never mind the Lay Of Beren and Luthien!
The fact that lotr can still inspire daily content is crazy. I will never run out
It is amazing isn't it!
Nor will we turn our faces from it. We shall be true and faithful to Lord Tolkien. May our children's children have a copy the Hobbit by their nightstand. I'm reading it to my son right now and it still captures imaginations.
@@666JPF citation needed.
@@666JPF
What do you mean? Did he steal another TH-camr's idk.,.word-per-word?
They have the same source material with same content so.....I don't get what you mean.
Late to the party here bud, but do you know when these books were written? Like literally almost a century ago, i think i read somewhere that his books were selling while he was alive but they didn’t really explode to its full potential yet before he died, so all the money being made off his works is something he didn’t get to see, his relatives im sure receive royalties but its just sad he didn’t get to see his cherished works true implications. Although alot of info isn’t included in the movies though, so slightly salty about that.
Both Morgoth and Sauron are great villains. But Morgoth was very chaotic whereas Sauron was more disciplined in his approach. Sauron was Morgoth's chief lieutenant and I suspect Sauron was responsible for implementing a lot of the ideas Morgoth came up with and for keeping Morgoth's operation in Middle-Earth running to some degree when the then Melkor was imprisoned and then later on parole in Valinor.
They definitely are both great villains!
I highly doubt that
Of course Melkor was chaotic. He was an individual, subject to no irrational "law." There was no traditional precedent, without his chaos no one would truly have had free will.
Eru Iluvatar seemed to want nothing but yes-folk. Where is the self determination in that? Lesser beings suffered only because they sided with a self-centered tyrant who demanded total, reflexive obedience. Basically, play his game or he'll petulantly take his ball home.
@@mbryson2899 There's more to it than that. Aule also wanted to create life of his own like Melkor, but when faced with the fact that he simply cannot, he didn't throw a fit and run around destroying shit and torturing elves, like Melkor did. That's probably the reason Eru gave life to Aule's creations, but rejected Melkor.
Look at the kind of things Melkor makes, when he has the chance: orcs, dragons, diseases, ETC.
Eru didn't reject Melkor's desire to create because he wanted to be the only creator, he did so because Melkor was a piece of shit.
@@mbryson2899 If that were true, Eru Ilúvatar would have not allowed free will. He could have made the Ainur puppets, similar to what the dwarves were when Aulë first created them before Eru Ilúvatar gave them independent life. Melkor did not create free will; he simply made awful choices with the free will he had.
I found the concept of evil incarnate as a physical foe who's fate is as elusive as those he chooses to feel Superior to was very interesting. I definitely like morgoth more than sauron as an ultimate villain, it makes sense that sauron is this evil beings second in command.
True, but Glaurung is more interesting than Sauron.
The fact melkor had lieutenants like sauron is indeed terrifying. He was definitely the strongest of the valar due to being strong enough to ally with ungoliant and have so many chose to worship him
@Hugh Mongous i also think its really fascinating how sauron went from good to evil. The need for everything to be perfect and go his way definitely resembles the fallen angel
Gothmog was Morgoth's 2nd in command until he was slain by Ecthelion at the fall of Gondolin
@@thepassionate3335 didn't he essentially trick her into destroying the trees and then barely escaped her darkness?
I finished reading Ainulindale and it really is like reading Genesis from the Bible. It's very poetic and written in old English. And, Melkor is definitely like Lucifer.
@@StaticBlaster correct!
THE VALAR
I was always fascinated with them, thou I had a hard time picturing them in context. A video on them would be awesome!
Morgoth is basically the creator of Tolkiens universe, he is the cause of conflict and evil that makes adversaries for heroes to fight against. Eru is the everything, Melkor is the story.
Very nice way to sum that up! 😁
Melkor being basically the catalyst for all the things that happens makes him a much more interesting antagonist than Sauron (who was no slouch himself)
In the beginning of the Silmarillon, Eru's music is described as being beautiful until Melkor's dissonance infects it, and Eru stops three times. Essentially, the music of Iluvatar IS the story of the Sillmarillion and the LOTR, as there are three movements in the Music and Three Ages that Tolkien wrote about.
Melkor is the dissonance that makes everything stop. Thus, I'd say that Melkor is the anti-story.
That is an awesome perspective! I really like this!
A good villain is the most important part to a story
Melkor and Gandalf are two of the most interesting fictional characters imo
I agree with you there!
A Satan and a Christ (-like) figure… the oldest story. Can’t go wrong with it
So is sauron.
Gandalf? Gandalf ... ... oooooooooh Gandalf! I remember! ;)
Sauron: I am the Lord of the Rings.
Morgoth: *looks up from desk* What was that?
Sauron: Nothing, sir.
Morgoth: “I am the Lord of the Lord of the Rings,”
Sauron: “Oh, do spare me the agony.”
Sauron: "I put part of my spirit in a ring so I can never be 100% defeated"
Morgoth: "And what if something happens to that ring?"
Sauron: "I'll make sure nothing will happen to it"
Morgoth: "Mh, that's a cute idea" *proceeds to turn the entire planet into his "ring"*
@@grassblock7668arda was the entire universe. Not just a planet.
Watched this video at least 10+ times love that Tolkien just gets better the longer you spend with him, truely timeless.
Agreed! Thanks for watching the video 😁
If you've ever seen two conductors argue over how to perform the band, you've seen an accurate adaptation of the silmarillion.
well yes if one director literally owns the venue and built it himself and trained the upstart...
I've played many years in wind bands n orchestral settings... n I must say.. groupies for rock bands ain't got shite on chick's freaky for orchestra musicians...that's a whole nudda level of supafreek... seriously yall
@@richardpotter7298 oh yea, absolutely. Orchestral groupies just are generally dressed more formally.
@@richardpotter7298 interesting! I had no idea.
I say sauron since we spend the most time with him. I never get tried of hearing about the army of Balrogs attacking the giant spider. I want to see that brought to life
The thought of seeing that brought to life would be beyond epic!
@@TheBrokenSword Sadly, this new Amazon show will be more focused on pushing a narrative than telling the story. Balrogs will be replaced by women of color and Morgoth will be a female as well as all the heros on the other side. Diversity in Middle Earth is what you celebrate. An epic battle? Meh, secondary. Epic diversity is on full display though. So you must enjoy.
@@DirtySouthJR Boooooring!!!
@@stanleykubrick5613 o.o
@@DirtySouthJR You mean the show will be focused on saying fuck white people and their history and yay to rank degeneracy in the form of explicit sex scenes. Just verbalize it. Stop beating around the bush.
I think that Melkor is a little fleshed out more than Sauron, but he is more of a stereotypical villain than Sauron. Melkor wants power, even his desire to create comes from a want to create beings so that they could worship him. His fall is similar to the fall of Satan, from an Angel and servant of God to fallen Angel and ruler of hell. Sauron’s desire to rule comes initially from an innocent and humble place, his love of order and distaste of chaos. What is odd about both is if they never rebelled, they both may have got what they want Melkor as the mightiest of the Valar would have ruled Arda and it’s inhabitants and Sauron would have created wondrous things, which would have helped an orderly world and presided over them in a very prominent place. Of the two, I prefer Sauron as a villain. He is more vulnerable and uses cunning and clever plans, first, where as Melkor always uses brute force first. Melkor is also unassailable by the children of Eru, even in his weakened state only the Valar are able to challenge him. Sauron can and was brought down with cooperation and a bit of luck, twice, with no direct help from the Valar.
Melkor is much more fleshed out than Sauron. He's actually Tolkien's most fleshed out villain. Sauron has 2 or 3 lines of dialogue in LOTR? He turns up in Beren Luthien and the Fall of Numenor in which he's talked about mostly.
But with Melkor we spend lots of time with him. We get more dialogue from him than we do with Sauron, we get his innermost thoughts, his motivations, and we get him interacting with God, his brethren the Valar, the elves, and men.
Melkor/Morgoth is more interesting and a more complete character than Sauron, and I love Sauron.
@@nwobw that is part of Sauron’s appeal, he is like the boogy man in LOTR. Melkor as I said is more a carbon copy of Lucifer. That’s not bad, it just means that he is less original to me. What trilogy of books has a main antagonist with whom no dialog is set and there are debates as to what he even looks like, yet it works, really well and it’s original.
@@jamief1263 You can call Morgoth less original or prefer Sauron. I love both.
That's irrelevant to your statement.
Morgoth is incredibly fleshed out.
Sauron works perfectly in LOTR precisely because he isn't a character. He's a presence.
Morgoth is also much more than a carbon copy of Lucifer unless you think the Silmarillion is a carbon copy of the Bible.
Morgoth obviously has several parallels with Lucifer, but they're just that - parallels.
Tolkien's mythology is so much more.
No direct help besides sending Gandalf who basically ensures the ring is destroyed
@@kp-legacy-5477 direct intervention is like when the Valar went to war with Melkor, twice on behalf of the peoples of middle-earth. The Istari were forbidden to match Sauron’s power with their own. The 5 that went were chosen as they were not as powerful as Sauron. Even without the ring all 5 Istari were no match for Sauron. In the end Gandalf was the chief orchestrator of Sauron’s downfall, he achieved this more by influencing, advising and inspiring people.
Tolkien created an entire mythology in his lifetime. Just unbelievable.
well he definitely kind of mimic'd the biblical stories of the fallen, if the wizards and balrogs, saurons and morgoth were all like angels made physical beings, little the angels cast from heaven or like the watchers, is like the top angels turned dark and took a high with them and like the wizards became their antithesis on middle earth. I guess as a world war 1 vet he was familiar with the concept of hell having lived though one already, is no wonder that the bad guys were led by fallen angels with goblins and orca taking the place of lesser demons like the muses that fell with the angels for taking their side in the conflict against the Creator. So it's not totally original but a great original take on an ancient theme
New universe)
@@mariobergnini8897 While it's true that Tolkien’s work draws on many mythological and religious themes, to say he "mimicked" biblical stories feels like a bit of an oversimplification. Tolkien himself was a devout Catholic, so it's understandable that his beliefs would subtly influence his writing, but The Lord of the Rings and his broader legendarium pull from a much wider range of sources. He blended Norse mythology, Finnish epics, Celtic folklore, and Anglo-Saxon history, alongside his linguistic genius, to craft an entirely new mythology.
The comparison of wizards and balrogs to angels is certainly interesting, but it’s a stretch to say it’s a direct retelling of biblical stories. Morgoth, for example, has some Luciferian parallels, but he’s much more complex-a rebel against the divine order, yes, but also a creator and corrupter in his own right. And while Sauron serves as his lieutenant, he’s more akin to a dark sorcerer than a fallen angel.
As for World War I’s influence, Tolkien admitted that his experiences shaped his views of warfare and loss, but he was adamant that his stories were not allegories for the war. The "hell" of Middle-earth’s wars is more of a reflection of universal human struggles against evil, rather than a direct parallel to the trenches of WWI.
Tolkien didn’t just repackage old themes; he synthesized them into something that feels timeless yet fresh. His world is unique because it speaks to universal truths while offering an entirely new mythology, not simply rehashing one. That’s what makes it so remarkable
In all my long years, the power and beauty, the sheer fertility, of Tolkien’s imagination has never ceased to amaze me. I’m convinced that he is one of the very few true kings of literature and will be remembered in whatever time there is to come on a par with the likes of Homer, Virgil and Dante, Chaucer, Goethe, and perhaps even Shakespeare, to a good degree. I would’ve thought all those people were impossible now, and yet he lived in our time. His themes were universal, his innate goodness manifest, his route to the heart direct, and his inspiration widespread but never equaled. We were blessed to have his works, which should “serve as a reminder of many things.”
Hey If you like this I would like to suggest reading the science fiction trilogy by cs lewis its phenomenal;
@@jonp3890 Oh wonderful hahaah I remember her she was vaulting up the mountain and ransom was lagging behind. I thought the most amazing part in the whole book was when satan possessing devine fought ransom and satan would scratch and bite and ransom would box him. I loved both out of the silent planet and voyage to venus but "that hideous strength" kind of didnt do so well for me. Maybe I didnt read it fully through or something. Also I really loved the Hrosse in out of the silent planet.
Amen
@@jonp3890 Oh I dont know of what you speak but I will investigate. I have read mostly all of my top authors, the trinity of brilliance and thats Dostoyevsky, CS Lewis, Tolkien. Brilliant amazing writers I am so glad I read their books walking through this life. I love reading so much.
DO you have any books you would suggest that I read?
My three favorite authors I have read all of their books (I think) is Doestoyesky, CS Lewis , and Tolkien. I also love the bible and so many other books. The catcher in the rye was neet and so was thorn birds. I like to stick with the power trio I just mentioned or any book thats been hailed as a classic or great I try and go for. I didnt like the great gatsby (more like the great crapsby) ........sadly I have pulled back on my reading with u tube and other addictions pulling me away from my first loves but I am still alive and so I will get back into it. Do you have any other recommendations? I got into clive barker for a while and though a talented and amazing author he is too evil/creepy for me, so is Stephen king.
I have been writing most of my life and apart from a small article in the observer I have not been published.
I think I may give moby dick a try.
I really like the pilgrims progress too. ALso the cs lewis science fiction saga is quite awesome.
Tolkien was clearly ahead of his time. And for your question, i would say that i prefer Morgoth over Sauron because he is more of a ambitious crafter, which i find more sinister,. While Sauron is more of a manipulator who wants to corrupt and take control, much like Palpatine.
Melkor: Imma be the ruler of Arda!
*Tulkas laughs*
Melkor: Understood, Have a good day. *flees faster than Nahar*
Tulkas is a beast to be fair 😂
Is Tulka really that powerful?
@@zekejeager2451 yeah
@@zekejeager2451 when Tulkas Arrived, Melkor is slightly weaker than him ( since he disperses all his power when Music of the Ainur happen ). Had Melkor had his full power while fighting the rest of the Valar ( including Tulkas ), Melkor roflstomp them all
that was morgoth weaker version of melkor
One really cool aspect of magic in Tolkien writing is that it is more like Will, forcing one's Will over the world around them. So when two great forces go against each other they sort of cancel each other out. So when prudes say "why didn't they just do this?" The answer is "cost" the cost was too great.
I love everything about this Universe.
I love everything about this Universe too!
Exactly. Even Gandalfs story is about him imposing the will of the Valar. In a much less forceful and more fatherly fashion. And therein lies his real magic or power. His ability to move the Kingdoms of men to action that no one, not even quite a few Kings and Stewards of these Kingdoms had been able to at times. Sounds like magic to me. If someone did that today you might be forgiven for thinking they've cast a spell.
@@6steveo9 Maybe wizards do exist.
Magic is indeed the imposing of ones will upon the material world by spiritual means
If you come to think about it, in our real world the ultimate power and magic is to bend everyone to your own will. Or so it seems.
Melkor is the cosmic version of a child mad that they don't get to have their favorite toy so they mess up their dad's work office out of spite. There's something so gloriously petty in what he does
Kinda.
Think more like: when the child grows up to adolescence or even adulthood, and feels he's almost (or as) smart and strong as his father.
He looks at what he does and thinks he can do it better. So he goes against his father's wishes and follows his own willful pride.
He was second in power and knowledge only to the Creator, and he had a hubris to match
I feel like you could characterize almost every adult conflict in this way. Its kind of a nothing statement.
Both Sauron and Melkor are pretty cool villains. I guess I'll go with Melkor since he's the first "fallen angel" if you will.
What a fantastically well researched, masterfully woven, and beautifully depicted story you have created here. I’ve watched a number of items on Melkor but have never come away with such a clear understanding of not just his chronology but also his intent (and the intent of Melkor by Areu). Thank you!
Glad you enjoyed it! :)
I always thought Melkor being evil was all apart of Eru's plan.
Eru's creation is a song and if the world was perfect with perfect people it would be boring.
Eru is playing Melkor like a fiddle to make his song interesting.
All of the epic tales are because of Melkor, he is someone tied to every event in Arda.
Yes, just like purely diatonic music is harmonic, but kinda plain. Although dissonance may sound ugly when played alone (for example, the tritone) it's introduction in a harmonic context in the right places makes the music richer and more beautiful in the big picture. Tolkien just solved the problen of evil, God was just trying to compose a really cool song.
All Melkor's foul deeds shall be but an instrument to bring about far greater things unimaginable to him
It's just a direct parallel to God and Satan. Lucifer and all angels are puppets they don't have free will that was God's gift to humanity. By that logic God literally made Lucifer rebel. The reason God and eru made evil in this way is because real beauty can't exist without discord to contrast it. Eru tells melkor as much when he says I made you as you are
@@dwylie83 Eru's three themes would have been less... is beautiful the right word?... without melkor's dissonance, interesting.
@LockGrinder Bingo.
That's why I prefer in our outright made up Tolkien Universe to think that Eru wasn't directly perfect in anyway. Nor does it ever really say he is at least in the Silmarillion.
Primarily, I see Eru as similar but in more power as a creator than the Ainur.... as he creates the Ainur.
Then he allows these things to express themselves freely and willingly... part of his enjoyment from his function... to create things other than himself separate from his own mind.
But he does have overwhelming power at any point to end all existence or to intervene.
The world of Arda that is first sung into song is more of a cursory thing. Then the vision to show what the Ainur had done in their own musical creations despite the various interjections of both Melkor and Eru...
The vision was to demonstrate the lessons he hoped to endow them with... but instead the Ainur became in love of this reality in conflict and wanted it to literally be. So Eru allowed that to happen. The lessons of "let's all get along and have some fun" wasn't learnt. Perhaps even Eru himself doesn't understand this lesson either, and just wanted to please his offspring.
In other words, even Eru isn't perfect. Or like you said, Eru is a sadist... knowing full well the misery that was about to transpire for many in this world, and that he could at any moment end such misery.
I like to think too at first, Eru found Melkore fascinating and interesting. As his second theme he smiles and interjects a 2nd theme to confront Melkor's discord.
I like to think of this as Eru being fascinated by new and more wonderful things that even Eru, let alone the other Ainur, hadn't even imagined.
I take the piece taken from Silmarillion Eru speaks to Ulmo while they all gazed a the vision of what their music caused in some faint fleeting reality as it was just a vision:
And Ilúvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: ‘Seest thou not how here in this
little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province?
He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed
the beauty of thy fountains, nor of thy clear pools. Behold the snow, and the
cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint,
and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea.
Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists;
and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art
drawn nearer to Manwë, thy friend, whom thou lovest.’
Then Ulmo answered: ‘Truly, Water is become now fairer than my heart
imagined, neither had my secret thought conceived the snowflake, nor in all
my music was contained the falling of the rain. I will seek Manwë, that he
and I may make melodies for ever to thy delight!’ And Manwë and Ulmo
have from the beginning been allied, and in all things have served most
faithfully the purpose of Ilúvatar.
Melkor was not fully evil, at least not at first. He was just a fool. And in his foolishness actually devised things of great beauty and added to positive wonderment of the world.
Over time though, Melkor's stubbornness and pure stupidity derived possibly from his arrogance and ego that could not stand to be corrected, that is the evil we see drive him into the darkness that causes misery for so many.
Anyway, I see Eru as a creator being that can give new independent thoughts into new beings. Not all powerful.
And not all knowing either.
If he were, than he'd be just a sadist. And I don't like my fantasy fiction to be headed in the good guys by a sadist at their heart. Like the God of Abraham or so many other all powerful gods..... The Greek Pantheon of various levels of divinity makes more sense as far as these magical things are learning too. Therefore they're not all good nor all evil.
And the good comes from their responses to stupidity aka evil.
And none really set to be pure all evil, nor necessarily all pure good either. But to enjoy their time and experience their own emotions... some learn from their lessons developing what we aspire to as good such as compassion and healing and joy and others find joy in hurting of others... becoming sociopaths. And some predisposed to being psychopaths ie. not able to sense empathy.... again they are not made perfectly. Not even Eru. Which makes sense to for why else would Eru have need to create the Ainur anyway to create worlds that are? He could just do it all himself. And in the intervention of misery or hints at misery, he could intervene before the misery took place. And if it were simply a lesson for an independently minded being he caused to be, he could just show them a vision and less intense simulation of the cause and effect that resulted in the "wrong" answer ie the misery to hopefully induce the person to develop a better character and make better future choices as not to get the "wrong" answer ie the misery.
He doesn't. So Eru isn't perfect. And neither are any creations of his or his creations' creations.
It's a learning process of finding ones self suddenly being. And sensing all the emotions that comes from being. And what does one do with this sense of being. What can be done with it? And what is best to be done with being?
Or is it better never have been at all? Is the perpetual emptiness of the void, the absence of everything better?
And in being, is there anyway one can forgo any mistakes and failures of stupidity?
Probably not. Therefore there will be misery. Just as in linear time, there is always a cause and effect... and an effect does not proceed the cause... or one of something added to another one of something makes two quantities of the same something. Positive happiness and negative misery unhappiness is fundamental to any reality.
And the objective is to learn from the misery as to avoid it, and make even more wonderful the joy that is possible of reality. To come from dumbness to smartness.
We are all dumb when we come into being. It is up to us to become enlightened. Or succumb to our own stupidity and the misery it brings.
What I like is that, Melkor is but another aspect of Eru's thought. The most powerful. It's almost as if Eru placed all is negativity and will to dominate in this one entity to keep it in check. To protect his 'song' from that part of himself; he created the other Valar to keep the song in balance. So; to the Ainu and the Children, Melkor is an antagonist. As for Eru: Melkor is the most powerful aspect of his being and needs all his other aspects/avatars/Vala to keep him in check before he destroys and corrupts the benevolent parts of Eru and ultimately, Eä itself.
prob not because tolkiens works are full of christian symbolism and thst dosnt fit very well
@@xadomlollp Why not? The Bible is vague enough on Heavenly/Hellish matters that a similar interpretation is feasible, and many theologians also speculate that Lucifer/The Snake may infact be the manifestation of The Darkness of God's Good.
Sir. This take is very perverse and even though to randoms might seem plausible it isn’t. God Doesn’t have darkness within. He gave free Will to his creatures both angelic, Human. Lucifer chose in his heart to rebel.
In tolkiens context so did Melkor. He freely did as he pleased. He chose to be “dark”.
@@xadomlollp but these are just my thoughts-not Tolkiens'. I sometimes form my own thoughts and opinions on pieces of literature and other arts, despite the creators' intent.
@@masanmasan8293 he was dark. Satan was dark, they were created that way. Just as how Manwe was created to be noble and good. But Melkor/Satan both chose to act according to their nature. A nature that was created by one supreme being from which EVERYTHING springs. When that being expels every aspect that desires and needs(all the Vala and Children have a need or want) you are left with complete purity. Humans would liken it to being 'enlightened' or experiencing 'Nirvana'
Which is why I think Eru cannot be corrupted since he already fulfilled his needs when he created the Ainur. He gave life, thought and shape to his aspects that wanted, needed and desired and once he did; he was no longer alone and did not want or desire; he leaves that to his creations and aspects.That desire he had is not dissimilar to Melkor's desire to create, rule and dominate over his own realm. Thing is; Melkor sees no farther than his own thoughts because they are but a miniscule aspect of the full and good thoughts of Eru. To become infallible, one must first expell all their wants, needs and desires; the good and the bad.
The curse of Melkor upon Hurin is pretty bogus. But I think it goes to illuminate his weakness more than anything. Here's a vala, the mightiest of them, and he's wasting his power over a petty curse on the progeny of a single man.
To be fair, it did lead to the destruction of one or two first age Elvish kingdoms. I wouldnt say it was a complete waste, more a devious means of destroying his enemies with the help of their own friends.
bogus implies fake, but it was very real the malice of a Valar has power but its stupid. look at the bad karma. but thats the nature of evil it takes pleasure in causing suffering and that's why LoTR is so great unlike other series where evil wins
The curse is real and not bogus. He calls not upon a higher power, but himself and his own will. Everything Hurin touches after that turns to crap.
@@thecappeningchannel515 I meant bogus as in making the man watch his line fall apart like that was bogus. How he did the man was bogus. Just the nature of it was petty and should be below such beings.
Interesting note on Tulkas. He technically is not one of the Valar. He
came to them in the first war as a mighty spirit, and hearing war on the tiny
world, rejoiced and joined them in their fight. After the events of
the war he became their champion and basically was inducted as a Valar
due to his great deeds. He then espouced Orome's sister. Pretty badass!
We need a game where you play as Melkor and take over middle Earth.
I would pay top Dolar or Euro to play that game.
An RTS where we unleash the host from the halls of Thangorodrim!
First person Action open world rpg, to walk as a dark lord Morgoth and murder everything that breathes😈😅
I've always wanted to see a good rendition of the Duel of Fingolfin v. Morgoth *And* Ecthelion killing Gothmog before the Fountain of Gondolin. Both are epic fights.
Would be a perfect project for an independent animator. Live action Hollywood does not suit the grandeur of Tolkien's world, the LOTR movies were good not great, and the hobbit movies were atrocious butcherings of it. Fingoldin is one of my favorite characters in all of Tolkien's works
Fingolfin*
@@anthonysantos3629 I disliked the Music. It's Dirge Quality throughout was meant as a pre-determinant of continuous disaster.
@@anthonysantos3629 the sad part is the abomination that is the rings of power actually made the hobbit series look great. At least the Hobbit was made in the spirit of Tolkien's work. ROP is an absolute abomination...
With the Void being there before Ea and Eru being the entity which can comfortably exist in both, I like to think Morgoth's fate was much less lonely than we may have been led to believe.
Once through the Doors of Night, there's nothing stopping Eru from visiting him at his leisure.
The purpose of Melkor was to have some knowledge of all of Eru's thoughts, basically a sounding board.
I like the idea that Eru visits every so often, chatting about the world, his thoughts, Ea.
Melkor has no choice but to endure this, and, with endless solitude being the alternative, I hope in time comes to enjoy their chats.
I wouldn't be surprised if, after so many seconds in eternity, Melkor eventually comes to understand Eru and his place in the design.
In doing so, ironically, he would have had greater vision, understanding and wisdom than anything he could have achieved in Ea and thus become more powerful than he had desired.
I can see Melkor shaping his own, tiny creations in the Void with nothing but him, them and the light of Illuvatar.
In that, I think he would find peace and the innate goodness he could never find in Ea or amongst the other Valar.
Melkor reminds me of the character of Memnoch the Devil from Anne Rice.
Wish I could see this whole origin story as a movie. With all the technologies today it would be amazing
Wouldn't translate well to film. Too ethereal. Would be amazing in the form of songs/music per chapter accompanied by amazing videoclips.
Better technology doesn't mean there are better practices to actually make a good movie. Humans still write and make it, so, it would only be visually good, hopefully. Loq
Melkor said “screw you guys, im going goth”.
It's really cool that you credit the artists for thier work during the video themselves. So many either don't bother or put a small list at ends of videos that no one reads. Good on you for supporting artists
They deserve all the credit! :D
they deserve some add revenue they make the video
I believe that Melkor is, like all the Ainur, a manifestation of a part of Illúvatar. This being a more ambitious, passionate and emotional side with a desire to control everything from Illúvatar. I find it to be quite similar to the story of the fallen angel.
It does have a very god/satan parallel going to it. Satan was an angel in charge of the choir of singing the praises of god, but instead wanted to praise himself.
There's also a parallel between Jesus' disciples and Judas, the disciple who betrayed Him (and, therefore, the rest of them).
Oh and to answer your question: Sauron.
Melkor, without question, was the more powerful of the two but look at his motivation.
All he wanted to do was to fluster and destroy anything that wasn't all about him. He was ultimately just a petulant and spoilt child.
Sauron, at least at the start, wanted to order all things and grew frustrated that others couldn't or wouldn't share his vision.
As a Maiar of Aule, he wanted to create and shape and build a perfect world.
There is something relatable and commendable in wanting to better yourself and others and that makes Sauron more compelling I think.
I’m reading the Silmarillion again now and found it hard the first time. This snack sized version is great. He is Melkor to me to answer the question. I also think as evil and dire as his actions are, Eru knows that they are part of him as much as the good is too so allows it to play out. Thank you for this.
These videos are like Silmarillion Cliff’s Notes, only with beautiful art.
Please talk more about the valar and their decision to take physical forms. I will love to hear more what this process meant to them.
That's soo cool. I haven't had time to study Tolkien's lesser know works, but as you're telling this story, I can see in my mind where Tolkien drew inspiration. Malkor & Angoliant at the trees reminded me of the Nidthenhogr gnawing at the roots of Yggdrasil in Norse Mythology. Judeo/Christian creation story is merged with Greek Gods, and Norse monsters. The art work is soo nice to have.
In all of humanities fiction, few are as great in their evil and power as Melkor. He was the first true dark lord in our modern time of literature, and the first evil in Tolkien's realm. Sauron would be nothing without him. The fact that he dwells within the timeless void makes him a perfect villain for some great future work. An ancient, timeless cosmic being residing in the void waiting to return. It is almost Lovecraftian - but older and greater.
Well put! 🙌
Older and greater? The Silmarillion was published 1977, with the first scripts dating back to the 1920s.. and with Tolkien starting to polish them and write more after 1937.
Which is also the year Lovecraft died... who wrote his first stories 1897.
So, tell me again which stories are older 😉
I'm sorry, but I don't think you know what Lovecraft's horrors are, if you think that.
Cthulhu, even though he is pretty much as close to being dead as a cosmic entity in the Mythos can be, breaks the minds of mortals by the mere act of SLEEPING. Like, even his dreams are so potent, they can drive people to madness miles away from his body.
He's weakened, he's slumbering and he's recuperating, yet he's passively bringing the world to ruin... And he's not even in the top 10. He's a lesser entity.
I love Tolkien's work, but saying Morgoth is older and greater than Lovecraftian horrors is just false. Pretty much every single Outer God in the Mythos would be equal, if not stronger, than Eru himself, let alone Morgoth.
@@MrKoraboras Depends on the cosmology. I don't really care too much about powerscaling between different fictional divine beings.
My take is that Melkor is not Lovecraftian in the sense that he's basically a manchild with cosmic powers; you can understand his actions. Lovecraftian horrors are usually incomprehensible and inscrutable (with the exception of Nyarlathotep).
@@dmin5782 I just dislike the comparison. Tolkien and Lovecraft had entirely different settings and the powerscaling is a bit counter-productive because of it, true, but let's be honest here...
The main difference between Tolkien and Lovecraft, setting and style aside, is that Lovecraft's work is characterised by hopelessness, and Tolkien's by hope.
In Middle Earth, you can prevail over the evil, corruptive forces.
In Tolkien's universe, you can at most stall it, at the cost of your sanity. And there are always more.
That's why I think Morgoth is weaker. He's supposed to be Satan - powerful, mighty but possible to resist.
Lovecraft's creations are supposed to be despair and hopelessness in an uncaring universe. With a lot of effort you can deny them momentarily, but ultimately, they'll always be there.
Sauron doesn't do much in the third age, his deceptions are more explicit in the second age. Whereas Morgoth in the first age is more like the ancient stories that permiate our societies.
I will always call him Morgoth Bauglir! I would call him craven. If only Ungoliant had destroyed him. Watching Tunuviel lull him to sleep was absolutely outstanding. Keep up the great work Mellon!
P.S. ECTHELION!!
Thank you! :D
I really enjoyed this video, Morgoth is officially my favorite villain in all of Tolkien’s lore. I really wish we get a live action film adaptation in the future because this is amazing
I always thought of Melkor as individuality, chaos, freedom. The other Ainur were just doing as they were told and conformed. Eru wanted Melkor to sow chaos, because with it out there would no life and no creativity. Melkor was essential.
You're right. Melkor, at least initially, was the embodiment of energy, change, dynamics, and contrast. And for those things to exist in a reality, you cannot have perfection.
He's the living embodiment of: "Good intentions, bad person, intentions have been carried out badly"
And the fact that I can relate to that is a serious problem. I don't think it can get worse after you're able to relate with Tolkien's version of Satan 💀
@@EdricLysharae Don't mind me writing a huge comment expressing my toughts of this :)
Those things also existed in Eru, and since Eru took a specific corner of his mind and made each Vala's personality resebling that corner, he took those traits and put the into Melkor. The problem with that was that he didn't put in anything else, and even tho those traits can be quite good, they get horrible if they're the only ones, some examples:
-Confidence, confidence is great, but witout self awareness and admitation towards others it becomes arrogance, Melkor is probably the most arrogant guy out there.
-Ambition, ambition is great, but without gratidude it becomes an endless lust for power and success, again that's very Melkor.
-Creativity, creativity is great, but without a general line that divides objectively right and objectively wrong, a creative person becomes a psycopath.
Eru didn't need to set the general line with any other Ainur since they lacked creativity and any other "human" trait, they were all perfect and innocent. Heck, we could say Melkor was the one that most resembled an actual human being in terms of personality before he went mad. (Well the other Ainur had some creativity, but we could argue Melkor's was above avarage, like everything else about him, this chatacter gives us some background to why smart people are either saints or very bad people). However with Melkor that line was more than necessary, we didn't get no line so we got a reckless monster instead, could have been avoided if only Eru wasn't a lazy parent and a megalomanistic sadist (oh look I also just described Melkor, that's the guy who made him after all lol). Essentially Eru forgot to add tomato sauce to a pizza, a pizza without tomato sauce is not a pizza (well ig it is it's just not that type of pizza and i can't think of a better analogy). With the tomato sauce being personality traits such as humility, modesty, patience, gratidude, selflessness etc, and the pizza being Melkor. Eru was THIS close to creating the greatest being to have ever existed after him, buuut he forgot some parts and made a moster, he also proceeded to be a crappy parent and here we are.
Also, can we talk about Nienna? Because her (and Melkor's) sole existence should make everyone question about Eru's moral code, if it exists that is. I mean he really did go to the depressed corner of his mind and made a being condamned to suffer for her entire life?
Not that any of this defends Melkor's actions of course, he's still pretty happy to commit them even tho they happen because Eru said so. Honestly the Ainulindale (ik i wrote that wrong) is a very underrated part of the Silm, we get to explore philosophical concepts and get introduced to Melkor's very interesting character, I mean he's an absolute butthole, but a likable one nonetheless, best kind of villains i'd argue.
But there was life and creativity without Melkor. And the other Ainur acted according to their nature. It's telling that Melkor's "freedom" could only be realized in destruction.
@@crabbieappleton his main personality trait wasn't creativity, it was control. Both things already existed in Eru (and so did all
the Valar's main personality traits). Yeah homie wasn't the best person ever even when he spawned lol
The Valar! Would love to hear more about Ulmo and Lorien. Was so fascinating to hear about Melkor!
I know beleriand sunk. But only after seeing the maps in 34:01 I understand the massiveness of the destructions. Imagine how much more interesting it will be in the story of rings if belleriand still exist with all its history and people.
Tolkien himself would have Loved these videos....i love them....Please...keep making them...there are So Many stories yet to tell....don't ever stop....Extremely Excellent work!! Very Appreciated! Thank You So Much!
THE VALAR
Of course I want to know how they physically manifested!!! :D
I ran across your videos just a day or so ago and, since then, the lore has been stirring in my head ceaselessly; the possible metaphors, allegories, archetypes, and parallells with other literature, etc...
It puzzles me a bit why things like this attract such intrinsic focus from me... But I'm too engaged with the worthlessly mundane real world (not sarcasm) to read the source material for myself in its entirety (and I don't read quickly... Slowly soaking up fantastic lore is a time-eater that I get way too addicted to).
THANK YOU
Sauron missed melkor so much. He looked up to him, he wanted to become him someday :( trust me guys I know. I lost my master recently
I've lost my master aswell! Anyway I'm going to go back to the workshop and finish crafting my jewellery.
Same, turned out he committed suicide, 😭. He was a great artist too, but no one ever talks about that.
Valar! Awesome character dive. Thank you for sharing this as it really helps understand the shape of Tolkien’s universe.
Glad you enjoyed it!
I like the story of Melkor and would love to see this adapted to a series and or movie. Even animated if need be. But true to the source and not weaponized agendas.
Don't wish too much or Lord Bezoz will ruin your dreams
Animated i think would be dope....but in big screen would be a dream, Zack Snyder can do it
Denis Vileneuve could be a crazy good choice for director
Yeah. Rings of power will be garbage.
And well well well, Rings of Power will be out in less than a month and we all know it's going to be garbage indeed :D🔫
Great job as always! Loved the Melkor art too. Some I hadn’t seen before. Would love if this made it to the big screen or small screen eventually
Let this be a lesson kids. Don't let one bully ruin your group. Stop them.
I’ve watched this video maybe 10 times. Can’t get enough Melkor! I honestly hope we get to see him on screen someday. Like an actual Silmarillian movie if they ever sell the rights…🤦
Maybe after 2040 when they are public domain, I would think they'd have made a move to sell them to Amazon (or the others companies who were fighting for it) during the bidding war if they were ever going to. It's a shame but I do get it. I wouldn't wanna sell it unless I really truly believe the buyer in question could do it justice.
There is a part in Morgoth's ring clarifying that Morgoth's body may have been destroyed and his spirit cast into the void, the Silmarillion itself being somewhat sparse on detail at points.
As a villain I prefer Sauron. Melkor is a pretty uncomplicated individual - not being able to create he just has to destroy. That's fine and all but its a monomania that I don't think would be as interesting to see play out as Sauron's story. Sauron by comparison believes he is the best to rule, to bring order. There is potentially loads of grey there to be explored, and it is his path to destruction. Intentions he sees as good dragging him further down a hole until all means justify the ends. At some point the two dark lords would have had to diverge too, another example of how evil destroys itself in Tolkien's world.
The silmarillion was made to be a movie. The book has many parts that deserve a cinematic story telling perspective and plenty of epic action to make you read the book multiple times. It’s a gem of a book actually. I don’t know if I will be alive to see another pj like loftrs. 😢
I would say it should be a series like s1-s4 of GOT but I've seen what Amazon did with 1B$ and am praying Noone touches it.
Who should play Morgoth then, I vote for either
Mark Hamill, Christian Bale, Kevin Michael Richardson, Jonathan Adams, Ralph Fiennes, Ray Porter, Ron Perlman, Robert Englund, or Tony Todd.
I'd hate to see today's entertainment industry try and make the sillmarilian...
@@chadpeterson5698 Not an American; someone from UK, Ireland or Norway that has been to a great acting school. I’m trying of mediocre schooled actors. Forgot to say, don’t change the author’s story…it’s great because of the author’s mind, not some studio employee.
It's not the type of book that really works as a movie frankly. It can absolutely be adapted, but if it was to be adapted, it would need to be a TV show. Perhaps you could turn The Tale of Beren and Luthien, The Children of Hurin, and The Fall of Gondolin into a trilogy/companion movies to a show. But because of the way the rest of the novel is constructed, it really wouldn't work as "movies"
Here's a long read, but honestly, I wish it'll change your view of Melkor and popularize the idea that Eru just needed Melkor to instill change.
Eru stated that Melkor is His instrument. All evil in this world has a purpose devised by Eru.
Eru needed a force of death, aging, sickness, illness to give value to beauty, life, and good.
When Melkor and Sauron were both defeated and the 4th Age began, the world grew old, the Valar became tired, the mountains dulled.
Eru therefore devised Melkor to return to the world at the end of the 4th age, and gave him enough might to embroil the world in a final war that will break the world so that Eru may begin the second Ainulindale, and create a second Ea, more beautiful than the first. Melkor is simply playing his role that Eru devised and foresaw.
You have to realize that Middle Earth is populated by immortal beings, but the Valar, Maiar, Elves do age, they get tired. Even the Elves have three life cycles of aging. So if there was no force of evil and death, these beings will all age and become decrepit and tired. Therefore, Melkor isn't an agent of evil, he's actually an agent of *change*. By instilling death, disease, and cold weather, he gives value to time, by killing the old, so that the new and fresh can be born. He gives *value to time*.
You have to also realize that Tolkien was an old man when he wrote these books. He definitely felt the effects of aging and tiredness. And a lot of Tolkien's writing very much focuses on how nice life was in its younger days, which makes sense coming from an old man.
So Melkor, by bringing disease and death, is simply providing 'change' in a world of beings that live through time.
In summary, let us not think of Melkor as the chief agent of evil, but instead as Eru's instrument, and that Eru is the one who needed an agent of death, so that the new can be born, and change may be brought to the world. Eru isn't a distant spectator, he's the one who created Melkor and allowed him to wreak havoc, and never once stopped him (which he definitely could have in an instant, as we saw Eru intervene viciously when the Numenoreans tried sailing West to Valinor), because Eru needed Melkor to play his part.
Great take on Melkor and can't disagree.
"I was the first and will be the last. We were born naturally immortal, then I think, the universe decided that to appreciate life, there must be death. So the younger races, grew old, and died. For only a life that is transitory can appreciate something as simple as love, it maybe the greatest gift your race has ever received". - Lorien, when explaining immortality to Ivoniva. Babylon 5. Love how great writing will give a nod hear and there to other great writing.
I loved when you decided to start calling Melkor, Morgoth lol it was such a interesting and cool way to bring me more into the story. Especially after hearing the reasoning and story of what had previously happened 👌 I personally thought that was a nice choice to do 😇
Such an amazing story. Thank you for putting this together the way you did. I was all smiles the whole time.
Really glad you enjoyed it 😊
This is what I wanted!! I didn't understand Morgoth / Melkor much, thanks! Also definitely THE VALAR!
Glad I could help, and glad you enjoyed! :D
I wrote a thesis in college on Melkor, and the fact that he is actually a protagonist and could be seen as the good guy of the Tolkien-Verse. Tolkien establishes that his universe is pre-deterministic, meaning that there are prophecies and the way things will happen is pre-determined. Melkor was made by Eru to live in a hellish existence, whereas his ambition was to rule over creation. All of his actions are to defy his hellish fate, and to become the "god" figure of the verse, to rule over creation. He has to recreate it in a hellish image to do so, but really his story is about trying to overcome his creator who damned him to exist in a terrible state and universe.
Illuvitar: So you think you did that by yourself? Everything you ever did was because I ordained it to be.
Melkor: ... wait so I'm an evil sack of garbage because you made me like that?
Illuvitar: Yes. But the next world I make will be good and free of evil.
Melkor: Dad, can I talk to you in private?
What Eru actually said was that Melkor's music, though intent on discord, actually weaves into His (Eru's) as intended.
Melkor's music ends up being the component responsible for mountains and volcanoes on land and tides in the ocean.
That's the context of that statement
@@Melqhii yeah, but the clear implication is that melkor can’t do anything that Illuviatar didn’t want him to.
@@Anglomachian not "want". Anticipate. A trait you'll notice regarding Eru is that He does not inhibit free will, regardless of His feelings on the subject.
When one of the Valar blatantly overruled His will and secretly created Dwarves before the destined Firstborn (Elves) and Men emerged, He didn't stop the Valar at any point, even though that was a most grave offense. He only confronted the Valar when he was done, and still didn't destroy his creations. In fact, he gave them true life, as opposed to the automaton-like state they were in before.
Because even discord does not disrupt His will, it just plays into it eventually via an alternative route
@@Melqhii you’ll notice that in that story of that valar creating the dwarves, Eru knew about it, and required the valar to perform an act of subservience before he permitted him to keep the dwarves.
No, the way I see it is Eru knew all that would happen and didn’t act to stop any of it, but wants a second world that will be free of it. Which means he has the ability to create such a world, which means he has the ability to make the present one like that, and doesn’t.
Therefore, he created Melkor as he is, with the intention that he do what he does.
I see no free will in this.
ITs literally the story of the Great Controversy. Clear to see where Tolkien got his inspiration from. Love it!
Watching this has made me want to re-read the silmarillion while listening to blind guradian's nightfall in middle earth album!
trying to read the religiously old-language written Silmarillion while listening to Blind Guardian's blatant sometimes cheesy but very lovable melodic metal music would give me a brain sprain. but I'm not stopping you. ;)
Obviously this is Tolkien's metaphor for The Garden of Eden in scripture--Tolkien being a devout Catholic. According to Genesis, God created the angels before his six day completion of Earth. Lucifer was explicitly superior to all other angels. Lucifer looked upon himself and perceived that he was beautiful, perfect, and quantifiably the most poweful angel--but he had to look away from his creator to do so. Lucifer had every reason to become jealous of Iluvatar--er YHWH--because God's power was infinite, and therefore incomprehensible to Lucifer--i.e. it seemed to him to be suspiciously transcendent, or illusory, or fraudulent. Lucifer rebelled and seduced one-third of the angels to join his insurrection. I.e. Lucifer sang his powerful-yet-finite, seductively discordant song. And God cast Lucifer and his corrupted cadre to the newly-created earth.
Then God created Adam and Eve. Resentful Lucifer disguised himself as the beautiful, all-wise dragon-serpent, and told Eve: "[If you eat from the tree] You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
This is the first, primary, secondary, perpetual, and penultimate lie of the evil one: that Man could be like God; that the created could usurp the throne of The Creator. This was the calamitous flaw and fatal mistake of both Lucifer and Melkor: that they believed they could transcend their albeit powerful finiteness--their status as a created beings--and become like their creators, the beings of infinite, singular characteristics, YHWH (God) or Iluvatar.
And this is The Lie that was passed on to us and to the creatures of Middle Earth: that we or they could be like God or Iluvatar.
That is also the metaphysical kernel of truth which explains the irresistible, infernal seduction of The Ring of Power in LOTR.
But in the real world, every one of us must figure out how to cast that ring into the fires of Mount Doom. (HINT: no finite, created being can do it--but our own Iluvatar can do it for us if we confess your own insufficiency and ask for help. And it is often as embarrassing to us as the necessity of a Gollum.
Faith in God creates the humility needed to deal with the fleshes weaknesses
If God was all knowing, then why didn't he foresee that Adam and Eve will be deceived by Lucifer? Why didn't he stop Lucifer before he could talk to Adam and Eve? Why didn't he isolate the Tree so that Adam and Eve couldn't get to it? Also, if God was all knowing and all powerful, then why did Lucifer rise against him? Did Lucifer not know God well enough to realize that his attempt at rebellion is pointless and doomed to failure?
Or perhaps God is not all knowing nor all powerful, and Lucifer knew that even God can be fooled and toppled.
@@sygmarvexarion7891 The answer is so simple as to render your question foolish and low-IQ: He foresaw it all--and foresaw that He would come to earth as a mere man and redeem them all through his death on the cross, and then be resurrected, proving his transcendental deity, and then return to Earth, crushing you and your evil father beneath his heel, and sit on the throne in the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, ruling all the earth with an iron sceptre for a thousand years.
Read the Bible, dumpling.
JRR Toilken was racist
@@robinthehood9720 Well...Sygmar, anyway.
Dunno about the "racist" accusation.
Edit: oh wait...are there other comment threads like this? I might have to rewatch the vid and read more comments.
Melkor seems mostly spiteful and evil for evil's sake. Sauron is a much more interesting and complex villain, despite also going the "dark lord"-route.
Perhaps Eru wanted Morgoth to cause all of this destruction. Morgoth would serve as the adversary that the rest of his children could then struggle against. An experience of perfect paradise would be boring, but an experience punctuated by struggle would be worthwhile.
A great thought!
Eru is a d**k then. Where's my man Jesus?🤣
Aye, God's a bas***rd!
Tolkien: “Hmm, what’s the darkest, edgiest name I can come up with. Something MORE than GOTH…”
As I understand it Melkor and Sauron had different philosophies. Melkor was into total chaos. Sauron was into order and discipline.
Thank you for your hard work. Amazing story..💜
Thanks for listening!
Morgoth is a better big baddest evil villain since he is just evil.
Sauron is a much more interesting character since it's very much possible to argue that he is not evil and his end goal would be better for most people, but the way to get there is the questionable part.
I think one of the things that sets Melkor apart from other Ainur is that he is pluripotent. The Silmarillion says he had a fair share of all his brothers' powers.
It seems to me that Melkor would act as the chaotic and entropic aspect of several elements of Ëa: Aule participated in the "ordely" geological formation of Earth, whereas Melkor would act as seismic-destructive activies in Arda.
The Ainur, in the great music, would be a kind of "Demiurgos/Demiurges" who perfomed the so-called "Creation of Concepts" that form Ëa: Energy, matter, light, darkness, gravity, life, death, etc.
Quote from the Parma Eldalamberon XVII:
"These fanar they (Ainur) assumed when after their demiurgic activities they came and dwelt in Arda (the realm), that is the Earth; and they did so because of their love for the chieldren of Eru, for whon they were to prepare the world, and for a time to govern;"
And:
“And as is known well, the prime among these is Melkor. Measureless as were the regions of Ea, yet in the Beginning, where he could have been Master of all that was done…”
Morgoth’s Ring
And:
"Even in his diminishment the power of Melkor is beyond our calculation.
~ the Marring of Arda, and comes of the Shadow, and of the taint of Melkor that touches all the matter (or hroa)(8) of Arda, if not indeed of all Ea."
In that case "the morgoth ingredient/element" was dispersed in the universe/Eä (galaxies, planets, stars). That would explain the entropy, the cosmic indifference and the death of the universe. The entire universe is then the Morgoth's Ring. If the Morgoth's ingredient is the instrument for the decay and destruction of all matter, it means that the children of Ilúvatar who will sing the creation of a new unblemished universe/Eä will not be just those of Arda. It will be cosmic music with many "others" in many places of the Universe.
Thank you for your brilliant comment 👏 I enjoyed reading that :)
I have just come across your channel & have been enjoying your talks / videos. I would be interested in learning more of the VALAR.
21:14: "...their created name of Morgoth was more suited. And so, that is now how I shall refer to him for the remainder of his story."
[20 seconds later]
21:34: "This irks Melkor."
(Gave me a good chuckle--cool video!)
The Valar! And I usually refer to him as Morgoth.
Not a massive fan of Tolkein but I can understand why people are so mad at the rings of power after listening to this. Just the most incredible world building and story telling. Just lol at in any way trying to cannibalise or bastardise this work.
Excellent video. Thank you taking time to share your knowledge. I’m currently rereading *The Silmarillion* . I want to finish it one last time before Amazon’s Lord of the Rings “prequel” series (or whatever it is going to be) is finally aired. I wanted to experience Tolkien’s story one last time while Amazon’s interpretation doesn’t exist. Cheers mate and once again THANK YOU!
Have you listened to the audiobook yet? Also quite enjoyable!
@@GullibleTarget Funny you should mention this as I am actually planning on starting it today! I bought the audio book (read by Martin Shaw) for myself for Christmas! I’m really excited and will take your endorsement as further proof it was money well spent. Thank you!!
Excellent spill I have always wanted more knowledge of the Universe created by Tolkien and I stumbled upon your channel after watching the Hobbit Trilogy over the weekend. I would enjoy a video about Valar. Keep up the excellent work!
Such amazing story. Thanks for you Sir for your time
So, Melkor is basically lucifer
"And he descended upon Arda in power and majesty greater than any other of the Valar , as a mountain that Wade's in the sea and has its head above the clouds and is clad in ice and crowned with smoke and fire; and the light of the eyes of Melkor was like a flame that withers with heat and pieces with a deadly cold." -- The Silmarilion, "Ainulindale"
I love that description of his eyes!
It's a stark contrast to what he would eventually become, begging for his life before being dragged out of Angband with his crown turned into a collar.
Yes! I love the descriptions of the Vala! Particularly that of Ulmo and ofcourse, Melkor. Yes; I call him Melkor. Feänor was getting a bit cocky and behaved a lot like Melkor; taking from what someone else has created(the light of the trees)and guarding it fiercely and not sharing.
@@GullibleTarget then you didn't read the Silmarillion...Feanor was not cocky and didn't behaved like Melkor.....
@@peterang6912 I did read it and it's an opinion you don't have to agree with🙂
Can you do a video discussing the content that what changed or cut out entirely from the Silmarillion and the other “Canon” works. Ideas and concepts Tolkien thought about putting in but changed his mind or rejected.
I love how the three songs during creation reflect the different ages of light in the world. The valar literally sung the theme of the world's history even before they became a part of it.
There were four ages in Tolkien's world
I truly believe more stories of middle earth need to see the light of the big screen.
They would destroy it it should stay untainted by hollywood
I wish they would give us a movie about all of them
I prefer Sauron. So intriguing how he came to be the Dark Lord.
#Valar !!! I'd love to hear more about them. This was so interesting!
That final battle thing is just directly Ragnarok. I knew of Tolkien's inspiration from norse mythology, but I did not know there was that idea so directly inspired.
Very good video! as someone who's never ever going to make it through the Silmarillion (nor, indeed, even LOTR), but loves the lore, it is great to have someone on youtube to explain it all very clearly!
Oh to hear of the Breaking of the World and the First Age! Excellent and well-done!
This is probably your best video so far.
Very nice indeed.
That amazing to hear! Thank you so much!
On the final question:
A movie series featuring some of the events of the Silmarillion and with Malkor/Morgoth as the antagonist would be awesome. In theory.
Would it be _better_ than the Lord of the Rings with Sauron as the antagonist remains to be seen.
The Lord of the Rings was a completed story written in three novels. The screen writers just needed to not fuck it up. And they did a pretty damn good job of it in my opinion. I'm not going to quibble about the battle of Helm's Deep and the replacement of Elrond and Glorfindel with Arwen at the Ford of Bruinen... Some edits, like the removal of Tom Bombadil, can only serve to remove unnecessary characters and tighten up the plot and story arc.
The Silmarillion was a fairly disjoined history of past events, with a fair amount of self-contradiction and incompleteness included. We've all seen what happens when a series based on an author's published works has to go it alone when those works are not complete **cough** GoT **cough**. And we've seen what happens when a movie or series of movies is made using scant works from the original author and must add much to that work in order to fill the proposed trilogy **cough** The Hobbit **cough**
Sauron was after all not really the antagonist of the Lord of the Rings. A shocking declaration, perhaps, but he was far more a MacGuffin antagonist just as the One Ring was itself a MacGuffin. He didn't *do* much of anything, he simply was, and the story flowed around him. Saruman and Sauron's direct lieutenants such as the Ring Wraiths and orcs were far more involved in and relevant to the story.
SealMarIllIon, and while am at it, its MARDA ,not Arda , ToolCash is your master not mine and you think ManYous not I excuses said Seals till i bash you like one
I have a very tiny bit of pity for Melkor. If Eru had created him the way he was, then not only was he ment to bring evil, but also it is questionable to what degree his actions are his own (basically free will vs predeterminism). Which led me to the conclusion that not only was what he tried ment to fail but He was specifically created and set up to fail so that he, by his failure would play his part in the world. But as i said, it is only a tiny bit of pity...
Solid thoughts there! It’s part to pity a monster unless you know just why they are one!
I think the idea is that he had free will and that whatever he did, just like all the other characters I'd incorporated into the final picture which Eru has control over to end for the good, whatever evil his beings do, Eru will turn it for good.
Most worlds need balance. He brought a balance to the world of middle earth in a way. While in other ways he pushed for different races to work together, become stronger and advance to be able to defeat what he brought to the table. You need a little misery to truly appreciate what you have in life. It seems to me like he was designed to be exactly who he was and create the problems he did. He was allowed to play his part and was put away when the time was right to bring in someone else who would continue the circle. Tolkien’s next stories seemed ready to again continue the circle and it seems like a cycle that world was meant to run every few hundred years.
Thank you so much for your absolute great video! At times the story put chills down my spine. Such great storywriting!
You talk in a very clear and great way too, hope you continue with this for the years to come!
Thanks so much! Certainly no plans of stopping 😁
Melkor has to be the better evil of Tolkien's world as he's the only entity in the entirety of Tolkien's universe that dared challenge Eru Iluvatar himself. Sauron, no matter how bold and daring, never dreamed of challenging a foe clearly superior to him. Melkor on the other hand simply had no fear in him to hold him back. After all evil can never truly win until they become the most powerful entity of all, and that means in Tolkien's universe finding a way to somehow surpass Eru Iluvatar or at the very least undo all that he did. Sauron could never reach such heights, Melkor arguably could if only his drawbacks didn't hinder him from doing so.
Morgoth is interesting, and obviously very powerful and very dangerousl, but I think Sauron was more dangerous in a way, as he was more patient cunning, deceptive and inspired more blind loyalty. But sucked at battle unlike Morgoth, just imagine how dangerous it'd be if they had properly worked together as equals and had the strongest traits of the other, they'd be pretty much unstoppable.
No I think Morgoth was more dangerous. He did a lot more damage and killed more kings. He was allied with ungoliant who is Shelobs mom who is a shapeshifting demon. He had balrogs fight for him. I can go on but trust me bro, Melkor was more dangerous
All hail Melkor, Lord of Arda
Hail!
MARDA
THE VALAR!! I always thought tolkien did a cut and paste with the Greek gods, manwe-zeus god of air, Ulmo-poseidon god of the seas, tulkas-aries God of war, ect
There was definitely some strong inspiration there!
Also gods from many other different ancient mythologies too such as Norse mythology, just to name one.
Its been a few decades since I read the Silmarillion, but I am pretty sure that you left out a crucial detail. As far as I remember it was Ungolianth who was the cause of it all. She was the foreign element that entered from the void and started her dissent by whispering into Melkhors ears and giving him bad ideas which then led to him singing his own tune and starting all the turmoil.
Wrong Ungoliant was just a small part of the evil Melkor did before becoming weak (Morgoth) she is nothing compared to him in his full power (she just part of him)
@@h7oda793 nope, read the book again.