I went to an RV dealer and looked at a gorgeous front living room, full body paint fifth wheel. As I walked around, the “yellow tag” on the off camping side of the trailer stated the cargo capacity was 1280 lbs. I said to my wife in front of the salesman, not to even bother looking due to the cargo capacity. Said salesman completely assured me that first off, I would never put that much weight on the trailer and if I went over “a little bit” I would be fine. As for not frequently moving them, not using them full time, not using them in harsh weather, the blame goes square onto the manufacturer that puts the “Rated For Full Time”, “Four Season Rated” stickers next to the front door. Josh, I am a fan of your work, I appreciate you walking the tight rope but manufactures and dealers have been complicit in selling consumers on a life style that they do not have a product that will support.
It sounds to me that it’s time the government gets more involved in the rv manufacturing and regulation the way they do automotive manufacturing if you can’t move a rv there isn’t much sense in buying one the rv manufacturers have been screwing people for years it’s now time they were held accountable
@fladave99 if only they were 'built like they used to be'...I for one don't need a rig as tall as a semi trailer, with no real cargo (weight) capacity.
Your business Josh, needs fully regulated. It's run amuck and must change. The days of signing away your rights in purchase contracts with the dealer and manufacturers must end. Having no recourse against the dealer and having to sue in the state of Indiana must stop and stop now. What's in the BISH's purchase agreement? Does your employer have customers sign away their right to sue Bish's for warranty work not done or for product failure? I'm so proud that I researched deeply and then decided not to buy because of this type of business being done. It's shameful!
Hi Josh, .... I have been following your channel for several years now and have concluded that you are one of the few in the industry who achieve a high level of transparency and accuracy on the topics you discuss, and for that I thank you and the industry thanks you! On this topic of frame failure, I have owned a 44 foot 'four season' fifth wheel and successfully travelled all of North America without any major challenges. I learned myself that Weight management was KEY to making sure the RV experienced the minimum amount of vibration and flex. Here are a couple of other suggestions that you didn't directly discuss in your video that could help other 'full time' RV owners be aware of: 1) The roads you travel (i.e. quality of highway and terrain). Many large fifth wheel owners like to 'boondock'. This is a terriric way to save some $$ but also get back to nature per se. The challenge with alot of this is that large fifth wheel owners are pulling your 16,000 - 22,000 lb RV through and over terrain that will stress the frame likely more than it was designed to stress. This reality is NEVER discussed by manufacturers or dealers relative to HOW you should or should not Repeatedly use your fifth wheel. 2) The frames on fifth wheels are designed and engineered by structural engineers. Hence, your point on Pinbox Weight being listed on the RV when emply is a great one. I would also add that they should add 'Max Pinbox Weight' so that owners can be aware of the amount they should be travelling with, (on the pinbox), before the fame / pinbox will begin to experience stress. This should be a 'known' number based on the frame design and steel strength and engineering. I hope this helps, and thanks for taking on this difficult topic.
this is why I converted to the gooseneck… The gooseneck can articulate or shall I say rotate side to side better than the flat fifth wheel that has a reduced range of motion.
You are spot on. The one additional item that I think is being missed by the industry, is the amount of horsepower and braking that newer trucks have. The ability to accelerate and stop is putting forces on the pin boxes that were never part of the equation before.
This is not transparency, he’s being disingenuous, he knows the rv industry is sending out crap. I’ve had 5th wheels and travel trailers for 30+ years, and never had a frame failure
Two things. Who knew they made RV's-campers to not be used as RV's-campers and taken across the country multiple times? Looking for a big RV to haul your toys, they ask? Well, I have this one, but you can only move it three times. Why three times I ask? Well, the frame starts flexing the 4th time you move it. Those models should not be sold as an RV but instead as a tiny house. lol And next is we have all wondered do I have enough truck to safely travel with this particular camper. I have never even thought about thinking do I have too much truck for this camper. The way you explained it was masterful. Josh, you continue to do the work we all need to here. Thanks brother.
I’m no different than you. I want to flip a desk sometimes over these kind of conversations because there’s just no reason it should realistically be such a mystery.
@@JoshtheRVNerd Of course there is a reason RV manufacturers keep this stuff a mystery...because they don't want to be held accountable! Honestly, the rationale in this video is laughable, and obviously came directly from the RV manufacturers...these stupid consumers shouldn't be using F-450 tow vehicles, shouldn't be using expensive shock-absorbing aftermarket hitches, shouldn't be towing the RVs more than 20 miles from home...even though none of this is expressly stated in their warranty.
I recall reading years ago in one of the camping magazines (way, way, back when paper magazines were a real thing) that RVs were designed for use rate of around two weeks of use per year, over a ten-year finance "lifetime." Not full-time usage. I don't know how true it was, but the idea was the average person only had two to three weeks' vacation per year, so they built the usage rate to match that. Basically, a full timer would put a full design lifetime of use on one it less than a year. Have no idea if that applies anymore or not, but somewhere in their design process, they have a specification for it.
@@kmbbmj5857 Yes, makes sense. Everytime you tow a trailer, it's essentially equal to your house experiencing an earthquake. Imagine your house in an earthquake 3-4 times a year. It would be falling apart.
Love your reply! Just one thing I take issue with. You imply that they might actually tell you how many times you can move it. In fact, if you read the warranty details, this is a number that you have to guess correctly on your own!! Alternatively, you can consult an Ouija board or magic 8-ball!!
The last two causes, "too much truck," and "moving it too much," are just cop outs by the industry to push blame on the customer. It's to cover poor engineering to maximize profits. Don't build me a vehicle designed to be towed and then when it breaks blame me for towing it around. Imagine buying a car and having the MFG go "well we didn't expect you to actually drive it around."
Agree... Consumers pay his paycheck not the manufacturer... If you don't have people coming in to buy, you are not going to get paid... Protect the consumer not the manufacturer.
I don’t necessarily disagree, but I do think a customer deserves to be made aware of those factors. And I don’t think that’s really done currently. At least with not any intention and consistency.
Actually, car manufacturers DO (sorta) tell you this. New car warranties are listed as both time and mileage. They're telling you if you drive it more than they expect, the warranty is going to end faster. As Josh said, there isn't (typically) a mileage/hour meter on a trailer. In this area, car manufacturers are doing a better job of telling you not to use it too much.
There's nothing wrong with being passionate about the industry nor being passionate about your 'job' at informing 'us'. Love your candor and also in accepting the challenge to address any RV industry problem!!!
Josh, your channel is much more than a simple RV review channel, it's practically a public service. Thank you for taking on these challenging topics and keeping all of us well informed.
Great information & video Josh! I believe that speed while towing will make a big difference. If you are towing at 75/80 mph you will probably have more issues. I pull at about 62 & feel much safer.
Your right on that point....I don't know how many times I get behind fifth wheels and toy haulers heading out to the desert doing 55-65 and try to respectfully go around them to get my view of the road back and by the time I finally get around them/it were both doing 75+......when I am able to finally make the pass that same enditiy drops back to the original speed we were going when I attempted to make the pass..... unbelievable
Y’all must be different as all I see is campers flying by me. It really doesn’t matter because a camper doesn’t know how fast it’s going, besides a class a is usually going past the speed limit. The only fifth wheel I would ever buy now is a Cedar Creek and it’s only because I know someone that only works on Cedar Creek’s and he is better than the factory
Thanks Uncle Josh I never knew about this and never even gave it a thought, l'm glad you have educated me. I know how much junk we stuffed into our camper. We also stuffed the bed of my truck and inside the cab. 2 adults and 3 kids. I'll guess we were way overloaded. Even with a big gas V8 going uphill I got passed by big rigs, a couple of times we could barely make it to the top of a steep hill. Other bigger campers passed us. I figured it was because their truck maybe had a stronger engine. Probably not i'm thinking now we wrer just way to heavy!
@@crazycritterlady8788 Absolutely was. I live in California, knowing I'm gonna tow in those mountains. I wouldn't buy a trailer with a dry weight of no more than 70% of my towing capacity and max weight capacity of the trailer no more than 90% of my trucks towing towing capacity. You gotta have that buffer for terrain. Plus, not to knock gas V8's, but diesel, with that early torque makes huge difference on towing up inclines. I have a half-ton diesel.
@@jshoota19ify @crazycritterlady8788 I've been in California, and towed through it plenty of times.. and with a gas engine.. without problems. With Diesel handle it better.. well duh.. yes. Until you get sub zero temps anyways. And either way, you should still be weighing your RV to match for balancing and weight distribution. I make it a point to weigh mine whenever it's convenient.. 3 times in the last 5 months infact. I've never come up to my truck capacity (currently at 68%), and even with full tank of fresh water and fully loaded to live in, we're still only 81% of the trailers ratings. And we rarely tow with a full tank of water, I just wanted to see what it would weigh.
The flip side of this video is that going forward, the RV manufacturers could add more structure and support to the frames so that they are stronger than the current frames. At the end of the day, there is a strong movement towards people traveling all over the US and a larger desire from many of the purchasers to live full-time in these RVs. Really - if anyone bought a car model from Chevy/Ford/Toyota/etc. and there was a problem with a frame because people were "using/driving" the car too much, there'd be a nationwide recall. If you really want to call a spade a spade, no one should have any concerns about the frame that an RV is built on. It's funny that you don't hear about diesel pushers having frame problems... Just saying.
If they did that, while good for us, would possibly limit smaller trucks and more market segment. I'd rather have a higher gvwr with the trade off of being built like a tank, but not many people want a newer dually that can pull something heavier in the mid to upper 20s
First and foremost they are not regulated by the NTSB like at car or truck or a diesel pusher since they do not carry live cargo. Flip to the other side and look at those fancy horse/RV trailers, they are built like a rock (they carry live cargo) and the quality put into those trailers are night and day compared to an only RV trailer. Lastly it they built an RV as if it was to carry live cargo they would last at least 10-20yrs, meaning RV companies wouldn't be making money as people would hold onto them longer. Back in the day when there was so many smaller RV companies they put quality into there units, now those companies have been bought by bigger companies to remove competition and the quality vanished for profit. An RV is just like anything else you by now a days in our throw away society compared to anything that was bought 20+ years ago and still running
So many You Tubers I see, when they are giving tours of their new 5th wheels..."Just look at all this storage. We chose this one because of the storage." Hope they check and make sure it is not overloaded with all the stuff they pack into it.
Thanks for the great info. We are full-time RVrs who travel across Canada and the states twice a year (from Nova Scotia to California). It is very much appreciated that you are willing to speak about the industry and properly training RV owners so that we have realistic expectations of our rigs/homes. We "overuse" our 26ft travel trailer but we try to keep our weights at about 80 percent of the GVWR so far we have not had any major issues. Your education has helped us with our own expectations so that we can plan for contingencies I case of an accident or RV failure. 😊
Hi Josh, it’s also happening to smaller 5th Wheels! Our KZ 283RLT is sitting at the factory right now getting fixed from frame failure! It broke our wall under the bedroom slide, plus the battery dropped out because all the screws came out of the plastic trough! We are trading it in as soon as it comes back! I can’t trust it! Thanks for everything that you do! You are my hero!!!
Yeah, it absolutely can happen to anything. The current discussion has really been focused a lot on big fifth wheel, but it’s not impossible to happen anywhere else.
@@mitchstephen5491nope dont blame ENGINEERS BECAUSE the owner is who makes final decision. I personally seen specs and plans and owner comes back and says too expensive etc so owner tells Engineer to cut cost. and engineer probably told owner wont work. but owner does not care because they are not regulated. like me selling you a car with no engine its be your fault for not looking under hood (i would never do that but private investors DONT GIVE A SHIT)
Just last week, my wife and I went into a dealer in northeast Ohio specifically looking at one model of 5'er we were interested in and explained why and that we had no intention of going bigger. In a matter of minutes, the dealer tried talking us into a rig that was at least 5k heavier and couldn't be towed by our 3/4 ton pickup. I hate this type of dealer and if he was the only one with the rig we wanted, i wouldn't buy it from him! Thank you for your always honest conversations and insight into the industry NERD!
They are simply under built. I currently own an RV rental company and own a trucking company. Before I got started in this, I was a mechanical engineer. Simply put, camper frames are so under built it is mind numbing to me. For instance, look at a 7,500lb GVWR car trailer and then look at a camper with the same GVWR. Mainly the front "A" frame area. Then go look at a gooseneck trailer and then these big fifth wheels. It is insane the difference. Of course, they are going to flex and when things flex, they will eventually give out. Yes things need to flex but the right material and thickness is needed to withstand years of flex before failure. Like you said, they are not designed for that. As for fifth wheel pin box changeouts, people need to look into air ride hitches for their trucks instead. They add to the suspension cushioning and will take the away from the shock that is transferred through the frame.
I always appreciate your candor. There is nothing more impressive than honesty. On your dealer comment: You're absolutely right! There are not enough educated salespeople. I can't tell you how many times we were told. "Yeah, you can tow that with your half ton. No problem," when I knew from a lot of research (A lot of it from you), that it was too heavy for our F-150. We actually had a guy a few months ago that asked us right off the bat about our tow vehicle and then steered us away from overly heavy trailers. I let him know that it was much appreciated. I can't thank you enough for all of the RV education you have provided me. As a woman, I get a lot of people surprised I know my stuff when we go to look. My husband just stands back and listens with a big smile, which is pretty funny.
haha girl yep. Me too. Blue Compass tried to screw me. i not an idiot They add on 2% interest above what bank gives customer. you add up 2% interest on every loan that millions of dollars they squeeze out of customers.
This says a lot! My wife wanted a 5th wheel camper, but I told her I will agree to get what we previously had, but no RV. After I explained my reasoning, she agreed 100%. A few years ago, we had a 42' living quarters 4-horse trailer with slide-outs. All welded aluminum frame, all aluminum exterior skin and the floor from front to rear was extruded interlocked aluminum (no wood). The only steel was the gooseneck, electric jacks and torsion axles. Built to haul (4) 1,000+ lb horses. We used that trailer many times camping at campgrounds without horses. Could fold in the tack room and use the back as a toy hauler. We pulled that trailer all over NC, VA and TN mountains for a few years, most of the time was towing 2 horses and on occasion 3 or 4. I pulled it from western TN to central NC to get home and see that my wife accidentally left a cup half full of drink on the kitchen countertop, that cup was still on the counter and not a drop of drink was on the counter, which says a lot for torsion axles and a well-built trailer. Of the many thousands of miles I towed that trailer and the countless nights camping, I never had to repair anything. I just done annual maintenance on hubs and brakes, we used it year-around. Camper - My Mother-law purchased a new 35' camper. It was towed from factory to the dealership on the NC coast. Towed 6 miles to a campground where it was set on blocks and tied down. Two years later she wanted to move it to another campground on the coast, so I towed it approx. 100 miles to a campground where it was set on blocks and tied down. Now, 6 years later and less than 1,000 towed miles, it is falling apart. Every year she has to get multiple items repaired on that trailer, including rotted flooring, leaking roof, AC unit replaced, water heater replacement and so on, it's non-stop. This is with a 74 yr old woman staying there 2-3 months a year and it sitting (with hvac on, conditioned). I couldn't imagine what a disaster that camper would have been towing it a few thousand miles a year with it falling apart just sitting on blocks!
It's astonishing how many things aren't standard or required on an RV. Thank you for sharing this information! I learned a lot of different things I will need to be mindful of as a future RV owner.
Thank you Josh for your homework and continued sharing with the community. I just purchased my first RV (5th wheel) then “Frame Flex/ failure posts all over the interweb to scare the crap out of me. To some of the points in your video: I have been following you (and others) for over nearly two years before purchasing - evaluating my needs, tow vehicle specs, reading RV manufacture info and stickers/data tags. The BIGGEST thing that NEVER crossed my mind was that an RV might NOT have been manufactured for the sole purpose of dragging it all over the place. Maybe mine is… how should I know?? Manufacturers and dealers really need to help us understand these things and most importantly, as you stated make as much information about the their products readily available and factual. Keep the pressure on Josh and keep up the good work!
@@JoshtheRVNerd thanks for the reply Josh. I purchase a GD 150 series 270BN. It’s just the wife and I. We liked the floor plan a lot and wanted the 30ft length for National Parks etc. After all of my research GD, seemed at least, to still be a good brand. Seems to be different being said these days but the workmanship on our rig beat out most others we looked at in that class. FYI: I’m in California now but lived/ worked in Coldwater for 3 years and remember your family’s business.
As a retired truck, driver, I approve of this. People watch your axle weights if you have a halftime and fill up the back of the bed of the truck with firewood, it might tow terribly.Just sayin
Absolutely! Mechanic speaking Anytime you overload a vehicle suspension it will ride on an overload spring or bump stop( or when hitting a big bump the spring rate will increase dramatically) transferring to the axle housing and trailer frame. If your back and butt feel it, your trailer feels it! The public roads are also getting so bad with pot holes, causing all types of problems
You have to be honest and call a spade a spade. I have seen many of the same RVs having this frame failure issue. Those RVrs are weighing their RVs, they are using the correct hitches, they are pulling with appropriate trucks (f350, 3500, etc). I am an engineer by trade. If you don't test and build with factors of safety, you will see what is happening. The manufacturer under-designed the frame. They (RV manufacturer) made claims they cannot hold up to. Enough is enough. Quit blaming consumers. Blame the ones responsible.
Did you take away from this that I was blaming consumers? Because I don’t feel that’s really where everyone needs to look. I think they’re using Arby’s the way that they’ve been led to believe they could. And that lack of clarity and information is a major problem.
@JoshtheRVNerd , Josh, I have been watching you for over a year now. I have always thought that you were being upfront and honest with the information given until this video. Manufacturers are not dealing fairly with the consumers. You have to be the consumer's advocate. If an RV Manufacturer doesn't like it, so be it. Please be the advocate for the consumer and don't protect the manufacturers from faulty manufacturing processes and designs.
Dave here. I too watched the whole video and you did put the majority of blame on education and overweight. Nothing was put at the design table, especially the frame design. IMHO, it is ridiculous to build a 40+ foot RV with huge water / waste tanks and a cargo capacity of 1500 pounds. EDIT - especially for rigs "designed" with a designated washer (at 140ish pounds) and dryer (at 65ish pounds) location on one side of the front and not directly over the pin box. I have no dog in this race, but we almost did in late 2019. So very glad we didn't buy a RV.
I agree,. 100% blame on the manufacturing. What education can a consumer possibly do to be sure a manufacturer has properly engineered and then built the structure inside the trailer? I am totally turned off with the whole industry. We bought a mint condition High country instead of a Grand Design because I am very educated on spotting improper design and build. We were being shown a brand new Grand Design and I went to simply open a door in the kitchen and the entire door came off in my hands. Tiny screws that had been "stripped " when sunk into the wood. How can I ever know what the parts I can't see are going to hold up over time? Like the FRAME! I like you Josh but in this video you are trying to spread blame over everyone! How can a customer be held accounted for frame's breaking other then complete abuse of the trailer and it's intended purpose. I hope this bury's any manufacturer like Grand Design and wipes them out. The problem is that another one will fill the void.
Preach brother - I have been wanting to get a 5th wheel, but with the sudden rash of broken frames (some call it flex). I have been doing some reach and noticed that most are the big 45’ trailers. Have seen several smaller (avg 35’) that have been all the way to Alaska that haven’t had that problem. I know that things break, and know RV’s aren’t any different. I just don’t want to wind up paying another 16,000 on top of purchase price for a repair that isn’t normal wear and tear.
Great job, great info! I just have a problem with someone purchasing any rv and you can only use it so many times or the frame will break. Especially if you have spent $150k or more. Thanks for the videos!
Toyota makes an awesome vehicle. Some American models just rust out too much. My daughter just bought a brand new Chevrolet Traverse. Its already having electrical problems. A part has been on order a month. It took them a month to decide what part to try. Junk, junk, junk. All this electrical crap is garbage. And wait until you are charged a fee to use your heated seats 🙄
@@mycharmedunicorn8715 Here is A fun game to play as you drive around. Notice that 99% of all vehicles you will see with a headlight or driving light out will be a Chevrolet/General Motors vehicle! Obviously a wiring harness issue! Mostly trucks and SUVs, although you will see many cars as well.
One thing I did not hear you discussing was about the manufacturer of the frame and what the manufacturer of the RV asked for. I know companies like Lippert build to the specs of the RV manufacturer. One thing I would like to know is when the frame is built to their specs and is finished do they have the frame manufacturer like Lippert look at the finished product to make sure it is still within the specs. Many of the RV manufacturers change designs and layouts that could affect that. I also wonder what other types of 5th wheel hitch types like the Anderson affect this. We have a 45’ Alliance Valor toy hauler. It pulls the RV great but is that supported by the RV manufacturer.
The pinbox frame issue has been going on since early to mid 2000's. The name has been changed but is still the same issue.. 2 things are causing the issues. Trying to save weight by using lighter frames and poor manufacturing by using the wrong welding process by people that aren't skilled. My last 5thwheel had the entire upper deck(pinbox to the front vertical wall) attached to four small ouriggers with 4 small less than 2inch long tack welds. None of it was directly attached to the main frame, then the main frame was built with 8inch ibeam. This was a 14000lb rated toyhauler. Needless to say the main frame rails bent. My current rv is a 21 torque bumper pull, I found supply stickers on frame, it was supposed to be a different brand, non toyhauler with through frame slideout even had holes cut out, non of which my trailer is. Needless to say I will be upgrading the frame before i have issues. Josh isn't wrong in his points but the main problem the frames just aren't stout enough. To make them substantially stronger would only take 2-300 lbs heavier and better train the welders doing the work.
RARELY will I sit down and watch a 42 minute on TH-cam. But this was well worth it. I have already seen a few videos on this issue with towables lately and this one is by far, the best and most helpful. We recently purchased our sixth camper and being another 46' toy hauler, I was extremely concerned with the "Frame Flex" topic. But you hit on several great points that I think everyone should note; especially those who are buying the bigger fifth wheels (although Airstream is even having some frame failures on select models). Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts and your knowledge. You're an outstanding salesman.
Josh, i am new to your channel but have watched many of your videos. Yes, you are a nerd with a goofy laugh, however, you present many facts about the RV industry, and I have enjoyed your information. I wish more Dealers would get on board and start a trend to improve information and to question the build quality of the RV's they purchase from the manufacturers. I couldn't help but to comment on your resent video "Frame Flex" You are the first Dealer I have heard to comment on this forbidden subject. The RV industry is under scrutiny, not only frame failure but quality control and service. RV manufacturers know they can do more to correct their problem areas. They know the consumers are frustrated. So why do they take a slow reactive approach rather than a proactive approach, or to put it direct, no approach at all. You are 100% correct about Manufacturers. They need to inform the dealers and consumers more information about the product they are building. The term "full time RV", the term " 4 seasons ready". Weigh each and every RV before it leaves the plant. These are but a few of the recommendations. If they need to build a stronger frame, then build it and cut down the load capacity to keep the weigh balanced. "Big Truck and Big RV" did a video on the steel used in RVs. I believe he used a 38' RV as an example. To go from a 10" main I beam to a 12" I beam with the same gauge steel was approx 60lbs per side or 120lbs total. Use more gussets to support connections. This is nothing new, The RV industry already knows this. The biggest problems in frame failure I have seen is very poor welding. I would bet most RV frames from Lippert, the welders are not certified, not trained properly, and not quality controlled checked on every RV frame they produce. If RVs are designed and advertised to travel full time on the road then build them to travel on the road safely. The frame is the core and the strength and should not fail. What if 1% of all cars frames failed. What if 1% of all semi-trailer frames failed. What do you think would happen. Things would change and fast. The RV manufacturers are under regulated and as long as this exists the problems will continue. Suspension systems need upgraded. Why would you install 5200lb axles and springs and bearings and shackles when the trailer is rated for a max load of 10,800lbs. I know what you're going to say, the truck picks up 10% of the weigh. However, that is static weight, at rest. Now let's factor in moving weigh, you will lose most or all of that 10% while driving at safe highway speeds on the roads in America. Build the frames and suspension systems to exceed the max weigh rating of the RV. Why are owners required to fix the manufacturers problems. The 1 YEAR WARRANTY isn't enough. Stand behind your product and give a 2-3-year warranty. Owners are tired of having to upgrade Chinese tires. Shackles, springs and bolts that fail with PLASTIC Bushings, and Frame failure. Enough is enough. I think we all know why, "High Profit" and CREED.
Most of us who tow our RV with a semi-truck remove the commercial hitch and install a suspension RV hitch. The suspension hitch provides a much smoother ride. The commercial hitch does not pivot side to side putting more stress on the RV frame.
I think you absolutely nailed it on this one! Education and information are sorely lacking. I spent 5 years researching before buying my RV, and still didn't find many of the answers. All of these issues you discussed are reasons why I decided to go with a Class A. Like your customer, I work from the road nearly fulltime, and I sold my sticks n bricks. Class As aren't a perfect solution to these issues, but for fulltimers and most-timers, it's a good start. Even so, educating customers (and dealers) on the limitations is a MUST.
Thank you so much Josh. I'm so glad to see that you were willing to put on your big boy panties and talk about these subjects that people either don't want to talk about or are scared to talk about or just don't know anything about. I agree with you 100% that the industry needs to start designing and building their RVs around some of the aspects that you spoke about. Now I am one of these people that do have a massive 41 ft fifth wheel and I do have experience with fifth wheels this large since 2012. I learned very quickly that the more that I move and travel with an RV this large that the acceleration of the damage to the RV was increasing at a very fast rate so being part of an organization like Thousand Trails that you move from park to park every 21 days was putting a toll on my RV that financially I was not going to be able to recover from and that was without any catastrophic issues that may pop up from time to time. So I had to learn how to extend my stays at different location and slow the traveling way way way way way way down which allowed me to actually enjoy the places that I was visiting for a longer period of time and not being rushed but at least I'm not destroying the RV going down the highway. Moving the RV 17 times a year was not very good for my investment and I would end up replacing the RV every 3 to 5 years because it would be just totally worn out and my pocketbook would be empty. I totally agree with you we need to find out how these RVs are designed by the manufacturers for the type of use that needs to go along with this particular RV like Towing it with the wrong vehicle or taking it down roads that the RV was not meant to go down or upgrading Parts on the RV that were really not designed for that particular RV and of course the big one not knowing the weight of the RV when it's going down the road and how it coincides with the maximum use weight of the RV and if the weight is evenly distributed and not just put in one location which puts stress on all of the complete structure in that area. I think that the manufacturers could help with that by not just putting one large garage containment area up front and spreading different storage areas in different areas of the RV so that we as consumers can spread our weight over the complete frame and not just over the pin box. And Josh again I just want to say excellent job bringing this up please let's not forget what you started please let's continue to talk to the manufacturers and the dealers and the customers and try to solve these issues and not forget about this video you put out and allow all of these items to be swept under the rug and never resolved. Thank You, Bill
Josh just got to say, you are very informative and provide honest feedback based on your experiences and knowledge. Appreciate ya' keeping our health and wallets safe. May God bless your daily life. Keep those wheels rollin' .
That was awesome! Someone who is new to the RV lifestyle hears about these challenges in the industry and I want to run far away. However, Josh you give me confidence that there are a lot of people in the RV industry that want more, higher standards, greater information and to set standards for improved best practices across all aspects of the industry. Thank you for the honest feedback and clear recommendations that you provided. Keep it coming!! This video should be standard for everyone to absorb so they can focus on improving the customer experience and increasing standards.
Thank you for the kind words. I feel sometimes like I’m shouting into the void but hopefully little conversations start leading the bigger conversations and eventually changes and improvements for everyone.
@@JoshtheRVNerd You did a fabulous job WITHOUT naming names! I agree with what you couldn't say, but folks are saying it for you: SLOW DOWN, PEOPLE. Plus, the terrible conditions of our interstates. When road conditions are horrible SLOW DOWN. Who cares if the drivers around you get peeved... you could kill them if your rig blew a tire and the vast majority of people have no idea that we can't stop on a dime or that jackknifing isn't just a special effect on the movie screen. We're looking for our first RV the third time around. We love the one we live in now, but taking care of it and getting repairs has torn it up even more. The 'things that need fixing/adjusting' in any new camper have turned into an endless loop of, "We take it to get it fixed from what you Service Guys did and find three more problems where you tore stuff up fixing the previous stuff you tore up." We're not buying from a Big Box Camper Store again. The fella I contacted at the Bish's in Texas (we're in Missouri) asked straight up the questions you said should be asked first. He sent me a list of questions and is also a full-timer. I am hoping (and feel tentatively hopeful that) we're in good hands. Can you do a video weighing the pros and cons (or do a compare and contrast that you're comfortable with) of fifth wheels that purport to be full-timer/four seasons friendly, e.g., Montana and High Country- Brinkley comes right out and says it on their web site. I know of others, as well. OR, simply bring it to our attention that such-and-such brand is full-timer ready? I'm searching for info, hard, but I may not find info on a lesser known brand that you might have heard of. My hat off to you for your recent vid with JD and BTBRV. I LEARNED SO MUCH. PLEASE DO MORE OF THOSE.
Josh, Another huge reason I went with the stick and tin Jayco. I love the look and weight of the fiberglass type campers but not the problems related to it. Thanks again Josh for TELLING IT LIKE IT IS! You are a Lone Ranger in this industry, keep doing what you do, we love it.
I agree with the stick and tin Jaycos.I have one but pull it little...its still like new parked at a Louisiana govt park 170 miles away.They are tried and true and the Amish really used common sense at every angle.
They’re tried and true with close to 100 years of track record. I’m taking a vintage trailer restoration online class by Larry at Mobiltec. Those old engineers figured this out so long ago with not even a calculator and the fact there’s 1000’s still in existence which proves stick and tin is king. If we could look into the future, every old fiberglass trailer will be in the landfill. Not being mean, just look at the facts. They are doomed to fail and almost impossible to fix for the average person. A 70 year old camper can be stripped to the frame, rebuilt with wood, most times even skins can be salvaged. Interior birch panels, amber shellac, can look and function better than new. $10,000 can completely rebuild A small camper by the owner, and if you reseal the doors and windows and cap rail if so equipped every 7 years, they literally last forever.
Our first camper was a Jayco. I'll have to be shown conclusive evidence before EVER buying one again. It was a nightmare to haul and things fell apart if you looked at them. We liked it and might very well still be in it, but for the fact that we brought it to our first campsite (an hour from the dealer with me driving exceptionally careful on well-maintained roads) leveled it and parked it and if something could fall off, detach, or simply not work - it did.
THANK YOU! I am so tired of all the incorrect information and basic wildfire panic going around. Mostly, its either 1) and engineering failure or, 2) a manufacturing failure. And any of that could be exacerbated by overloading, extended use and publicity - many are the larger fifth wheels veing used fulltimd by popular TH-cam personalities.
And none of them are taking any responsibility for the damage. If you point out that they may have contributed to the failure, you will be called a troll. I believe the cause is a combination of both manufacturer and owners.
I believe that there are way to many moving parts here to find the absolute reason (s) this is happening. ie: The road conditions, I-80 in ohio for example. The truck pulling it, is the suspension or tight or loose. The pin box jerking the trailer back and forth, The trailer suspension bouncing the trailer, improper loading of the trailer ( nose heavy or worse tail heavy or just overloaded entirely), Usage of said trailer (NOT accusing but salty northern roads or worse yet salty Florida beach air.) how the trailer is driven (85 mph down I-95 heading to Margaritaville, We have all seen it!) , is it a full time usage, proper setup/weight distribution and teardown, storage conditions when not in use. Oh the list goes on and on. Why yes sometimes I believe it is the fault of the trailer mfg or should I say the guy welding the rv frame on the line just having a bad day ( we all have had one at work admit it.), and last but certainly not least poor quality of materials received in the supply chain. All of these factors and more lead me to believe that in a case by case study we will find no one smoking gun but a combination of events and situations that is hard to quantify but all have roughly the same outcome.
@@ryanryan6207 You are so right...I would be considered a troll. I believe there are many causes to what is going on. I have a 2018 394 Momentum, no issues to date. However, I tow slower than most ~65ish mph as a safety precaution. Here in Utah, I could do up to 80 mph and be within the speed limit. Like many, I'm concerned about potential frame damage with my trailer and looking at everything that I might do to protect my trailer. FYI, I will be inspecting the lags in the bedroom and front of the frame. I've seen pictures of those put in by Grand Design and believe larger 1/2" lags that fit the holes in the frame would be an improvement. Keeping tow speeds down, especially on rough roads will surely help. I will be weighing my trailer to assure I'm not overloaded while also cleaning out and reducing weight in the front storage. Towing without a full tank of water whenever possible is also desirable. While not always possible, minimizing hard accelerations and abrupt stops is also desirable. (Keeping a good safe distance from vehicles makes this is easier to manage) As for acceleration, many of our TVs have more horsepower and torque than ever before. Hard acceleration will definitely impact the pinbox to frame and the vertical frame supports. For those of us with a trailer already, we cannot change the engineering or build of our trailers...we need to do something preventative to protect our investment as they are. I'd love to see/hear more ideas from others about their thoughts. Thanks ryanryan6204 for your post. Love this channel. Thanks to Josh for taking the time to provide his insights.
I appreciate your candor 1:12. The meat of your video - 2:50 to 39:12. - must also be complimented for your valiant attempt at nuance in explaining the issue and empathy for those who have had to endure the wretchedness of it all . Keep up the great work, Josh!
I strongly agree that information needs to be more readily available. Additionally, build standards should be improved and customer service after the sale needs to be upgraded. Thanks for sharing this information. Awesome
I've seen it once. Someone took a toy hauler and converted it to gooseneck and overloaded it. You always add education to your videos, and it is much appreciated.
Overloading is a issue but goosenecks are okay depending on the manufacturer. Grand design allows for the reese goosebox and therefore should not ever be a problem.
Josh for President . Probably the best video I’ve seen you provide for the camping community . We literally watch tons of your videos before we purchased our 1st rv . And continued to do so every time we upgraded .
With decades of testing and forensic failure analysis engineering experience, the RV Industry has legendary unacceptable component, parts, manufacturing, assembly, designs, and business practices that end users are frankly done with all the bs. With record RV sales during the pandemic has resulted in record number of pissed off end users. As a result there have been significant litigation cases significant talk of new legislative actions that hopefully will significantly improve designs, reliability, warranty, and service related issues for all parties involved.
I appreciate your time and thoughts on this. As someone that is dealing with an issue directly caused by information given by the dealer, I agree that people need better training and education. Dealers also need to stand behind damage issues caused by bad info their representatives supplied during the demo at pick up.
Loads of great information Josh. Thank you for all the hard work and digging you put into this video. Not even being a 5th wheel owner myself, I appreciate all the hard work you did. Not an easy topic to talk about but you did a great job looking at all the angles and diving in to get the information out to help others out while learning yourself. 👍🏻
Love your videos and how educational they are. A subsection under the idea of "having too much truck" could also be, towing your 45' triple axle toy hauler at 85mph is probably a huge cause of some of this flex. I don't believe any of these trailers are engineered and designed to travel down the horrible Colorado highways at the speeds some of these tow vehicles are capable of. I try to stay below 65 everywhere possible and always watch the skidmarks on the highway showing me the heaves and bumps to slow down over.
Yes we weighed our 2021 Montana High Country 295RL when we first got it and found out that the the truck itself was 360 lbs over on the chassis. Had to get a dually. I told the dealer when I was purchasing the 5th wheel that I was going to be overweight and their response was you have plenty of truck. I always have the trailer leveled before opening any slides. You are correct their are array of issues that causes the problems. I always say we can fix things that are broke but we are better if we know what caused it to break.
I think everyone knows rv quality has gone down !!! I believe manufacturers should build better products. With substantial better suspensions and pin boxes. These are meant to be moved often. Clearly, there's a problem with quality and building. Nice job Josh, great video !!!
I think these RVs have a lot of natural flex so they can keep the weight down and they never considered that everything would literally break apart from shifting while going down the road . After the situation on wet roads the camper will literally rot away and everything leaking...😮
Great Vid Josh. "Flexing" is normal not just in RV's but everything basically that moves, autos, trucks, aircraft, ships, metal swing sets. Failure? Start with excessive flexing, leading to metal fatigue. Add in the fact that travel down the road every trip is an earthquake (talk about flex!) and as you pointed out -overloading, especially off center loading can increase stress. 40 ft going down the road? It's flex city Josh! Then add in off center loading and a cambered road - -. Back in the day (I'm dating myself) 40 ft single wide trailers were designed to be moved once or twice, then left at their permanent location and supported. Today we see them moving down the road for a weeks vacation or less. Are the frames any stronger??? Higher tensile steel? You hit a lot of topics and it was a great video. Everyone shares some blame on this with information - Maker, Dealers, Owners etc. It also does no good to watch a video where an owner says "My frame broke" without giving full information on how, when, what types of roads, temps, how many miles, what the tow vehicle is, weight, new, used and many other items.
It's not just manufacturers, owners are just as much to blame. Ford chevy and dodge keeps giving these owners more power, more power is not what you need when towing
One of the biggest things we did to stop any risk of flex with our Alpine 3270RL was adding heavy duty shocks and airbags. We pull with a 2015 GMC 2500HD. We knew we were on the threshold for weight when we purchased. It has made all the difference in the ride as the passenger, it pulls more even and straighter, I have noticed there is no shifting or chaos in the trailer itself after a pull. I want to say the whole upgrade was less than $1500. The other thing we did - change the tires from the OEM HiSpec "china bombs" and replaced with Carlisle. We had them weigh the tires to see the difference. HiSpec weighed 26lbs per tire....Carlisle 55lbs per tire. Totally different pulling experience with the new tires.
With all of the other channels detailing their issues, this is a breath of fresh air. This represents the best depth of the issue. You raise an important issue when modifications are done to the hitch or using the trailerering systems out of specifications. In the same way, if I modify the suspension on my jeep wrangler, I assume the responsibility of potential failures. It is no longer Jeeps problem, even if it is a certified mechanic that does the work. It is not to shift blame, it is to assume the risk. The other points were fantastic. It does not diminish the issue, but it is a reminder of the rare nature of this issue. Great tips to check as we are on the road. Thank you again.
I applaud all the time and research that it has taken you to present this video. This issue has scared my wife and I from pursuing the purchase of a newer rv. But I have been truly enlightened by your video and now I feel much more informed about selecting an rv. Thank you so much.
Really appreciate you taking the time to watch. I won't claim to be the only person who knows what's going on here. There's more to learn still certainly. But I do think properly informing yourself before a purchase can more likely yield a positive result
Josh, Thanks for presenting this video. Very good info. You brought up trucks. Here's one I have learned the hard way. A 1/2 ton truck might very well be rated at 9-14k towing. What people do not understand is that the camper might just be within the weight limits of the truck, however, when it is 37.8ft long, it can really be a challenge to tow it properly and safely. Ask me how I know..... On the 5er's... You brought up several points, but, I think that adding things like a washer / dryer to the front of the RV can contribute to the issue. And, I also believe that front kitchen models are another problem. Really, I personally believe that you should keep most of the weight over the axles or even further back, and not towards the front. I am no expert, but, weight could very well be causing these issues. Just my humble opinion, but, I would never have a washer/dryer in the front area, nor a front kitchen with that heavy residential fridge up there. Finally, I think that some of the problem is indeed the manufacturer, trying to get more for less. The frame should be able to exceed the design of the RV. Some of that would boil down to using thicker steel, and, work with the frame manufacturer to develop frames that were designed for the weight the RV builder is going put on the frame.
Thanks for your honest insight, I love Bish's RV. Any RV I've ever bought, is from your Idaho Falls facility, and I won't go anywhere else. They have always been fair and honest with me. Their service and quick turnaround is second to none.
I will say that due to the length of this video, I had to wait a few days to watch it. Once again, your video was explained perfectly. I had never heard of too much truck before. But I drove MDT's for almost 30 years. So it makes sense. They bounce terribly. Especially when underweight. I will say that I have watched your videos for almost 6 years now. And you are one of the reasons we have the 5th wheel we do. I made sure it wasn't too long, and it had an impressive cargo capacity. Thank you for being there for us, the consumers.
Thank you so much Josh for explaining the frame flex. And the failure. I wanted you to ask you what it meant but I didn’t want feel dumb in asking. I’m so glad you are talking about it and explaining it. Thank you so much Josh!
Josh, My wife and I were at a show yesterday looking at RV's we were able to meet the owner of Alliance. Coley was very forth coming with all questions we had. To the point, his responses were in line with what you stated in this video. I asked him about the frame failure, and he did not avoid the question at all. As a matter of fact, he stated many of the same things you did as to why it is happening and where Alliance falls in that spectrum. Thanks for always putting out the hard information and trying to do the right thing always.
Our family is going full-time in a 23' Alliance Paradigm 390MP on Friday. After doing a lot of research and speaking to countless folks - both in the Alliance owners community and on the corporate side - we felt the most comfortable going with them. Time will tell if we made the right call but comments like yours are always reassuring to hear. Transparency is king!
Josh thank you!! We are picking up our brand new Keystone Fuzion 419 on Monday! We have been talking a lot about the frame crack/failure that happens with these big boys! My husband just said, “I wish Josh would do a video about the frame issues!” ….and lo and behold, here it is! We did feel that a lot of the issues are coming with overloading as well as towing with the wrong rig. Never did we think about having “too much truck,” but that makes perfect sense. We’ve got a one ton dually with a 24k Husky hitch. We thought a lot about how NOT to overload it. We were thinking that switching to residential mattress might be part of the issue but who knows. We’re keeping the RV king in there just in case! Lol 😂 The Fuzions tend to crack on the bedroom slide out with the East/West beds. Of course that’s ours. We will take this video to heart and really appreciate you. ❤
Get a note pad and pencil go through your new rig with a fine tooth comb. Your list of things to repair will be extensive. Get an appointment before you leave for your first trip for just after you return. Very hard to schedule repairs. Our list was 2 pages long ie; the shower wall was not actually attached to a piece of wood! Wire slide was to slack on 1 side, one heat vent was blocked with foam. Just weird stuff indicated to me quality control was lacking.
you are so right about semi tractors, I just found out recently too, that its not a good idea. I didn't do it, but a buddy did, and it destroyed his pin box. Also as a former trucker, bob-tailing is treacherous. I also wouldn't doubt some people overload with cargo, without thinking about it, just seems natural to load up the family junk.
We're not worthy ! We're not worthy ! Thanks Josh for this amazing video ! We learned so much from this video. We really appreciate your candid approach to helping RV'ers, dealers, manufacturers. We watched dozens and dozens of your videos for the past couple of years. After learning from those videos, we decided to purchase our RV from Bish's in Montana. Funny thing - the RV was built in Indiana (a couple hours from Dayton, where we live), then hauled to Montana, and then hauled back to Dayton when we purchased it in 2022. The early life fails where immediately evident. I fixed several issues myself, and we got other things fixed under the manufacturer's warranty. Please keep making these videos ! Stay nerdy, my friend.
What an awesome, informative, and thorough video. My wife and I have owned two travel trailers and a fifth wheel. We are now own a Lance truck camper that we purchased new and really enjoy it. If we ever make the switch back to a trailer, it’s good to have the information you have provided. Outstanding work!
I own a 2022 Grand Design 260RD, the drivers side frame failed near the slide, Grand design took care of us 1000%, picked it up and took it back to Elkhart, fixed it, and returned it to us and made everything right. Still a happy GD customer. They stood behind the product and there customer.
Seems you are putting a lot of this on owners and not the manufacturers, if they built a quality product meant to hold up over the long haul, a lot of these issues would be moot.
I would be curious to know if you saw the end where I had a message for mfgs and dealers Or any of the times where I said “how can you fault an owner for never being told how they were “supposed” to use it”
I encourage all to watch the entire video before leaving a comment. Thank you Josh for doing that what is not easy. It would be great for someone with the resources to put out a database of specs, customer ratings, and known issues.
Josh: I really appreicate all your videos with all the open and honest information. During your research on frame flex/failure, have you looked at weld quality. If there are poor welds and/or no full penetration welds, this could be another contributing factor.
Josh I think you hit the mark on every subject in you video, best advice you give as soon as you drive off the lot go get the RV weighed while it is empty with all current options installed and then once you put all your stuff in it, then go get weighed again to find out if you are indeed, overweight RVs are called recreational vehicles most are not meant to be lived in full-time and moved every week like some people do but there is a lot and I mean a lot of people, including myself that do live in it full-time. I think the frame flex/failure has to do with a lot of what you said from overloading the RV to not properly distributing the weight in the RV.
My short term hope is I can help educate people to protect themselves Long term I’d like to see more education and information but.. I am not holding my breath
Josh you did a great job covering this isdue. I would add one thing. Manufactures these days use computers to design their frames instead of slide rules. There is no longer a need to round up as in the pre computer days. The frame is designed as close as posdible to save weight and allow the 1/2 ton trucks to pull the maximum size camper. The design does not allow for the extreme road codition and high speed of much older frames that were intentionally over designed.
Thank you Josh for trying your best to keep us informed. I hate it so much when my parents are right 😂. I love your videos and try our best like you to be honest in the videos we make. The only way change can happen is if information is given.
Thank you Josh. You always provide fantastic information and videos. You covering this "mine field within a minefield" topic and preseenting the facts are why we love, respect and TRUST you. All are accountable for this, and it can be made much better, if not done away with entirely.
Yeah, there’s a variety of comments, but I think most of the folks who didn’t appreciate what I had to say were folks who probably already had their minds made up before tuning in. I think what is shared here is pretty fair. Frame flex is a real thing, but I also strongly feel it’s a symptom of the greater problem in play.
Thank you Josh. Very informative video. Understandably a complex and suggestive video. After having many towables over the years, we are still learning. You are correct at all perspectives. We tow a 26 foot grand design travel trailer with a 1/2 ton. And many can argue that point. But in my defense. I am very aware of limitations. And we have made adjustments through the years to feel confident in our abilities. Getting a weigh safe equalizer hitch was the best purchase we made and also a big eye opener. As we set it up and started to travel. We have had to constantly monitor the hitch weight and make adjustments almost daily. Because the load/ distributed weight changes. (Holding tanks) Plus, we feel we use our trailer more than the average consumer. With that said. It's important how much you plan realistically to use your trailer and set it up accordingly. We do plan to add shocks to our setup based upon our usage. It's all a learning curve. We should always not assume we know it all and be humble in our assessments. Thank you!
My pleasure. Thank you for listening and having an open mind. Kind of like I learned about the larger trucks being a factor in the equation we are always still capable of learning. And I’ll never claim I know it all or have it all right
I watched this video in it’s entirety. You have provided me with great information as a new 5th wheel owner. I have tried to gather information from social media but that is hard to do because of the variety of options you get from that platform. Thank you for all you do for the camping community! And keep up the good work!!! See you at the CAT scales.
Knowledge is key in anything that anyone does. The customer needs all the information they can get and they need to do their own research as well. You are a wealth of knowledge.
Read the Fine Print on the Registration sticker: It says this vehicle “Do Not Over Weigh this unit 2000.LBS. Above the Yellow Sticker it says don’t put no more than 1,500-2000. Pounds.
Thank you Uncle Josh for being there for us. My wife and I just bought a Pinnacle that claims to be 4 seasons ready. That’s ok. I’m not 4 seasons ready. When I retire we will follow the sun. I never want to test that RV in freezing temperatures.
What I have seen / heard about flex / frame failures is poor welding skills of the RV’s substructure, especially fifth wheels by the frame maker or RV manufacturer. In the whole pin box area basically the whole floor substructure underneath the master bedroom bed. If welding at the wrong temperature/ and or feed, it will weaken the metal a 1/4” up to and inch from the actual weld. Thus turning that metals monocular make up to a more brittle metal. Thus more susceptible to actually cracking or ripping. This applies more to travel trailers. Some use a 4, some a 6” and others a 8” frame rail. Some weld the frame on top of the “A” hitch area. A few integrate that “A” into the frame providing a more solid structure. The brand of RV travel trailer ( Outdoors RV / Arctic Fox ) uses the 8” frame rails, over sized axles ( 5200’s vs 3500’s or 4000’s ) and shock absorbers (4) thus a very healthy 3500 lb. cargo capacity vs 800-1800 for a 29’ unit. A cheap RV is a cheap RV. You get what you paid for.
I enjoyed your video, Josh. As a current RV owner, I can tell you that I personally took close to a year of doing research prior to purchasing an RV. People fail to realize that an RV is a piece of equipment. This piece of equipment requires maintenance, inspection, and constant care. As a retired USAF aircraft mechanic, I have become trained to do inspection with a careful eye. I have been told I go overboard with what I do. However, I really dont care what others say. I have weighed my RV empty and loaded with everything we use on a normal trip. We pack our items spaced throughout the RV. As you stated in the video, the cargo capacity is listed as what you can load throughout the RV, not just in one part of the RV. To me, common sense should come into play. The dealership we purchased ours from came right out and said no RV was designed to be used for full-time use. The more you use something, the faster it wears out. Also, people need to stop "upgrading" their RV. The RV was engineered to be like how you purchased it. Modifications to me lead to trouble unless it is performed by a qualified person. Your video made a ton of good points. Thanks for making it!
I owned an Attitude toy hauler with a Lippert frame that actually split horizontally because of the bad design of the supports welded on to the I-beam frame over the leaf springs. Instead of welding the angle iron supports vertically, from top to bottom, on the I-beam they welded them horizontally, side to side, on the I-beam. The flexing of the I-beam frame caused it to crack right at the weld points of the supports they put in. When I contacted them about this they said it was a known issue and told me I had to bring it to one of their authorized repair centers both of which were at least 3 states away. I was unable to tow this trailer as this happened on a cross country trip. I took it to a dept of transportation certified shop for big rig trailer repair and the first thing they told me was the failure was due to the supports being welded horizontally across the frame. The weld weakened the frame and created a stress point every time the frame flexed those support brackets finally caused it to crack. The shop said the supports should have been welded vertically. I had to pay out of pocket for repairs and it took me 2 months to finally get Lippert to pay up for their bad design. I still see welds like this on some trailer frames and have no idea why they continue to do so.
So much very good information that all rv buyers should watch before buying. We fell into the rv salesman told us our 3/4 ton diesel truck could pull his 40’ 5-wheel with no trouble. Stopping was a problem.
@@JoshtheRVNerd yes, I wish you had this fourteen years ago, because I would have learned a lot, and how unsafe we were. Thanks Josh, and please keep up the great job of giving us the information we need.
Josh you are one of the very few RV salesperson who has the integrity to tell the truth about products. too many dealerships are all about the sale then who cares about warranty work they try and get you to sign an affidavit that all problems have to be taken up with the manufacture and thus starts the everyone pointing fingers it's not their problem.
I find that there is a scary number of people who fail to take into account the weight of their fresh , grey and black tanks. A couple years ago at a provincial park I told an RV owner how much weight he was adding to the trailer by filling up his 114 L water tank at the start of his travel day. That, plus a full fuel tank (209L) added 323 kg (712 lbs). I will never forget the look on his face. Absolute shock. For some reason, it never occurred to him that this added to the weight. Others I e spoken to assumed that the "empty" trailer weight was actually calculated with full tanks. Education is key. I've been learning for two years now, and I'm still at least a year out from purchasing.
First off, thanks to both you Josh and Bish’s RV for your honesty, integrity and transparency for this and other RV matters! Applause👏👏👏 working and managing at an executive level in the Transportation business there has never been a shortage of hot topic & controversial topics but “Frame Flex” seems to have soared to high levels very fast! Nevertheless, your information was spot on so thanks! Your struggle with “what” exactly to say was never more apparent than this one, great job keeping it grounded and more fact based! Thank you!
Josh once again you have presented a tough topic gracefully. SUGGESTION, get with Big truck big rv JD and RV LIFE Style Channel and do a pod cast. You three would knock this out of the park😊
Greetings, As a professional truck driver for over 35 years and a tow company owner in the Colorado Rockies, I've recovered many trailers of all kinds. When you were talking about what trucks that can over stress the pin box I can show some clarity on that. 1) semi trucks : If the truck has air ride then the suspension is not the issue. The issue is more if the torque rating and the air brakes. With the king pin not under the trailer like on a semi trailer but out in front and down, the horizontal pulling will cause a twisting action on the pin box. A normal diesel pickup will have anywhere from 500 to 1000 lb-ft of torque, but a semi truck can have anywhere from 1500 to over 2000 lb-ft of torque in which it over stresses the trailer, also the air brakes if not careful will put more braking pressure than the trailer brakes can't keep up so it stresses the pin box in the opposite direction. Braking should be equal between truck and trailer. 2) F450-F550 : here is where the suspension comes into play. The spring stacks on the F450 and F550 are heavy enough that if you are going to use one you probably should get a fifth wheel with airbags.
Great video Josh and thank you for being as candid as possible on this topic. We have one of those large RVs that may be in this category that is experiencing “frame flex” albeit it hasn’t reared its ugly head as of yet. I will add one more of the possible contributing factors are these horrific roads we have across the USA, in some cases they are so rough and abrupt it is outright dangerous to pull an RV on some of these roads. It’s truly a wonder that this isn’t even more of a prolific problem than it is. These roads are absolutely horrendous and probably caused by a massive increase in the numbers of heavy 18 wheelers traveling our roads over the past couple decades. I’m not trying to be political, but some of the funds being sent/spent elsewhere should be applied to fixing and improving our roads.
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I went to an RV dealer and looked at a gorgeous front living room, full body paint fifth wheel. As I walked around, the “yellow tag” on the off camping side of the trailer stated the cargo capacity was 1280 lbs. I said to my wife in front of the salesman, not to even bother looking due to the cargo capacity. Said salesman completely assured me that first off, I would never put that much weight on the trailer and if I went over “a little bit” I would be fine. As for not frequently moving them, not using them full time, not using them in harsh weather, the blame goes square onto the manufacturer that puts the “Rated For Full Time”, “Four Season Rated” stickers next to the front door. Josh, I am a fan of your work, I appreciate you walking the tight rope but manufactures and dealers have been complicit in selling consumers on a life style that they do not have a product that will support.
It sounds to me that it’s time the government gets more involved in the rv manufacturing and regulation the way they do automotive manufacturing if you can’t move a rv there isn’t much sense in buying one the rv manufacturers have been screwing people for years it’s now time they were held accountable
Hear, hear!
Well said!
I couldn’t agree more with your last sentence starting with “Josh…”
@fladave99 if only they were 'built like they used to be'...I for one don't need a rig as tall as a semi trailer, with no real cargo (weight) capacity.
About 20 minutes in what I yet have yet to be heard is, “the RV manufacturers are trying to save money by cutting corners.”
Your business Josh, needs fully regulated. It's run amuck and must change. The days of signing away your rights in purchase contracts with the dealer and manufacturers must end. Having no recourse against the dealer and having to sue in the state of Indiana must stop and stop now. What's in the BISH's purchase agreement? Does your employer have customers sign away their right to sue Bish's for warranty work not done or for product failure? I'm so proud that I researched deeply and then decided not to buy because of this type of business being done. It's shameful!
Hi Josh, .... I have been following your channel for several years now and have concluded that you are one of the few in the industry who achieve a high level of transparency and accuracy on the topics you discuss, and for that I thank you and the industry thanks you!
On this topic of frame failure, I have owned a 44 foot 'four season' fifth wheel and successfully travelled all of North America without any major challenges. I learned myself that Weight management was KEY to making sure the RV experienced the minimum amount of vibration and flex. Here are a couple of other suggestions that you didn't directly discuss in your video that could help other 'full time' RV owners be aware of:
1) The roads you travel (i.e. quality of highway and terrain). Many large fifth wheel owners like to 'boondock'. This is a terriric way to save some $$ but also get back to nature per se. The challenge with alot of this is that large fifth wheel owners are pulling your 16,000 - 22,000 lb RV through and over terrain that will stress the frame likely more than it was designed to stress. This reality is NEVER discussed by manufacturers or dealers relative to HOW you should or should not Repeatedly use your fifth wheel.
2) The frames on fifth wheels are designed and engineered by structural engineers. Hence, your point on Pinbox Weight being listed on the RV when emply is a great one. I would also add that they should add 'Max Pinbox Weight' so that owners can be aware of the amount they should be travelling with, (on the pinbox), before the fame / pinbox will begin to experience stress. This should be a 'known' number based on the frame design and steel strength and engineering.
I hope this helps, and thanks for taking on this difficult topic.
this is why I converted to the gooseneck… The gooseneck can articulate or shall I say rotate side to side better than the flat fifth wheel that has a reduced range of motion.
You are spot on.
The one additional item that I think is being missed by the industry, is the amount of horsepower and braking that newer trucks have. The ability to accelerate and stop is putting forces on the pin boxes that were never part of the equation before.
Wow, you sold your soul to the RV companies.
Okay Fauci was this an issue before covid? Or is new to the industry? How many people before 2020 had this issue?
This is not transparency, he’s being disingenuous, he knows the rv industry is sending out crap.
I’ve had 5th wheels and travel trailers for 30+ years, and never had a frame failure
Two things. Who knew they made RV's-campers to not be used as RV's-campers and taken across the country multiple times? Looking for a big RV to haul your toys, they ask? Well, I have this one, but you can only move it three times. Why three times I ask? Well, the frame starts flexing the 4th time you move it. Those models should not be sold as an RV but instead as a tiny house. lol
And next is we have all wondered do I have enough truck to safely travel with this particular camper. I have never even thought about thinking do I have too much truck for this camper. The way you explained it was masterful.
Josh, you continue to do the work we all need to here. Thanks brother.
I’m no different than you. I want to flip a desk sometimes over these kind of conversations because there’s just no reason it should realistically be such a mystery.
@@JoshtheRVNerd Of course there is a reason RV manufacturers keep this stuff a mystery...because they don't want to be held accountable!
Honestly, the rationale in this video is laughable, and obviously came directly from the RV manufacturers...these stupid consumers shouldn't be using F-450 tow vehicles, shouldn't be using expensive shock-absorbing aftermarket hitches, shouldn't be towing the RVs more than 20 miles from home...even though none of this is expressly stated in their warranty.
I recall reading years ago in one of the camping magazines (way, way, back when paper magazines were a real thing) that RVs were designed for use rate of around two weeks of use per year, over a ten-year finance "lifetime." Not full-time usage. I don't know how true it was, but the idea was the average person only had two to three weeks' vacation per year, so they built the usage rate to match that. Basically, a full timer would put a full design lifetime of use on one it less than a year. Have no idea if that applies anymore or not, but somewhere in their design process, they have a specification for it.
@@kmbbmj5857 Yes, makes sense. Everytime you tow a trailer, it's essentially equal to your house experiencing an earthquake. Imagine your house in an earthquake 3-4 times a year. It would be falling apart.
Love your reply! Just one thing I take issue with. You imply that they might actually tell you how many times you can move it. In fact, if you read the warranty details, this is a number that you have to guess correctly on your own!! Alternatively, you can consult an Ouija board or magic 8-ball!!
Nerding out on RV info! Who else but Josh?
This industry needs some serious change. Folks like you are helping to make that happen!
I love youjosh rv guy
The last two causes, "too much truck," and "moving it too much," are just cop outs by the industry to push blame on the customer. It's to cover poor engineering to maximize profits. Don't build me a vehicle designed to be towed and then when it breaks blame me for towing it around. Imagine buying a car and having the MFG go "well we didn't expect you to actually drive it around."
Agree...
Consumers pay his paycheck not the manufacturer...
If you don't have people coming in to buy, you are not going to get paid...
Protect the consumer not the manufacturer.
They absolutely say “it was never intended to be used that way”.
You can't engineer equipment to cover people who don't understand how a machine works
I don’t necessarily disagree, but I do think a customer deserves to be made aware of those factors. And I don’t think that’s really done currently. At least with not any intention and consistency.
Actually, car manufacturers DO (sorta) tell you this. New car warranties are listed as both time and mileage. They're telling you if you drive it more than they expect, the warranty is going to end faster. As Josh said, there isn't (typically) a mileage/hour meter on a trailer. In this area, car manufacturers are doing a better job of telling you not to use it too much.
There's nothing wrong with being passionate about the industry nor being passionate about your 'job' at informing 'us'. Love your candor and also in accepting the challenge to address any RV industry problem!!!
Josh, your channel is much more than a simple RV review channel, it's practically a public service. Thank you for taking on these challenging topics and keeping all of us well informed.
Thanks 👍
Great information & video Josh!
I believe that speed while towing will make a big difference. If you are towing at 75/80 mph you will probably have more issues. I pull at about 62 & feel much safer.
In the uk 65 mph max that’s the law
That's the exact speed I tow at. 55 with no traffic for better gas milage.
Your right on that point....I don't know how many times I get behind fifth wheels and toy haulers heading out to the desert doing 55-65 and try to respectfully go around them to get my view of the road back and by the time I finally get around them/it were both doing 75+......when I am able to finally make the pass that same enditiy drops back to the original speed we were going when I attempted to make the pass..... unbelievable
You've never seen me do that. I set the cruise at 62. Up & down hills that's my speed.
Y’all must be different as all I see is campers flying by me. It really doesn’t matter because a camper doesn’t know how fast it’s going, besides a class a is usually going past the speed limit. The only fifth wheel I would ever buy now is a Cedar Creek and it’s only because I know someone that only works on Cedar Creek’s and he is better than the factory
Glad you are taking the time to do this because frame FLEX is normal, frame FAILURE is not!
Exactly
Thanks Uncle Josh I never knew about this and never even gave it a thought, l'm glad you have educated me. I know how much junk we stuffed into our camper. We also stuffed the bed of my truck and inside the cab. 2 adults and 3 kids. I'll guess we were way overloaded. Even with a big gas V8 going uphill I got passed by big rigs, a couple of times we could barely make it to the top of a steep hill. Other bigger campers passed us. I figured it was because their truck maybe had a stronger engine. Probably not i'm thinking now we wrer just way to heavy!
@@crazycritterlady8788 Absolutely was. I live in California, knowing I'm gonna tow in those mountains. I wouldn't buy a trailer with a dry weight of no more than 70% of my towing capacity and max weight capacity of the trailer no more than 90% of my trucks towing towing capacity. You gotta have that buffer for terrain. Plus, not to knock gas V8's, but diesel, with that early torque makes huge difference on towing up inclines. I have a half-ton diesel.
One of the best ever Josh! Never stop. BTW the White Hawk 10 yrs on is going strong! God bless
@@jshoota19ify @crazycritterlady8788 I've been in California, and towed through it plenty of times.. and with a gas engine.. without problems. With Diesel handle it better.. well duh.. yes. Until you get sub zero temps anyways. And either way, you should still be weighing your RV to match for balancing and weight distribution. I make it a point to weigh mine whenever it's convenient.. 3 times in the last 5 months infact. I've never come up to my truck capacity (currently at 68%), and even with full tank of fresh water and fully loaded to live in, we're still only 81% of the trailers ratings. And we rarely tow with a full tank of water, I just wanted to see what it would weigh.
I guess they better quit calling them travel trailers if they’re not made to travel! Good video josh!
Hear, here.
They have abandoned the "vehicle" part of RV.
Same could be said for "camp" grounds.
The flip side of this video is that going forward, the RV manufacturers could add more structure and support to the frames so that they are stronger than the current frames. At the end of the day, there is a strong movement towards people traveling all over the US and a larger desire from many of the purchasers to live full-time in these RVs. Really - if anyone bought a car model from Chevy/Ford/Toyota/etc. and there was a problem with a frame because people were "using/driving" the car too much, there'd be a nationwide recall. If you really want to call a spade a spade, no one should have any concerns about the frame that an RV is built on. It's funny that you don't hear about diesel pushers having frame problems... Just saying.
It probably would only add $100-$200 in materials and labor to do it right.
If they did that, while good for us, would possibly limit smaller trucks and more market segment. I'd rather have a higher gvwr with the trade off of being built like a tank, but not many people want a newer dually that can pull something heavier in the mid to upper 20s
@@smirnoff242it would add that much weight to stiffen these under engineered frames!
First and foremost they are not regulated by the NTSB like at car or truck or a diesel pusher since they do not carry live cargo. Flip to the other side and look at those fancy horse/RV trailers, they are built like a rock (they carry live cargo) and the quality put into those trailers are night and day compared to an only RV trailer. Lastly it they built an RV as if it was to carry live cargo they would last at least 10-20yrs, meaning RV companies wouldn't be making money as people would hold onto them longer. Back in the day when there was so many smaller RV companies they put quality into there units, now those companies have been bought by bigger companies to remove competition and the quality vanished for profit. An RV is just like anything else you by now a days in our throw away society compared to anything that was bought 20+ years ago and still running
Be honest , lippert builds frames to ordered rv specs. It is the manufacturers fault that frames are failing due to trying to keep weight lighter.
So many You Tubers I see, when they are giving tours of their new 5th wheels..."Just look at all this storage. We chose this one because of the storage." Hope they check and make sure it is not overloaded with all the stuff they pack into it.
Thanks for the great info. We are full-time RVrs who travel across Canada and the states twice a year (from Nova Scotia to California). It is very much appreciated that you are willing to speak about the industry and properly training RV owners so that we have realistic expectations of our rigs/homes. We "overuse" our 26ft travel trailer but we try to keep our weights at about 80 percent of the GVWR so far we have not had any major issues. Your education has helped us with our own expectations so that we can plan for contingencies I case of an accident or RV failure. 😊
Hi Josh, it’s also happening to smaller 5th Wheels! Our KZ 283RLT is sitting at the factory right now getting fixed from frame failure! It broke our wall under the bedroom slide, plus the battery dropped out because all the screws came out of the plastic trough!
We are trading it in as soon as it comes back! I can’t trust it!
Thanks for everything that you do! You are my hero!!!
Yeah, it absolutely can happen to anything. The current discussion has really been focused a lot on big fifth wheel, but it’s not impossible to happen anywhere else.
I would blame the engineers that spec the frames for these trailer. The do not add enough over engineering into them .
@@mitchstephen5491I completely agree!
@@mitchstephen5491nope dont blame ENGINEERS BECAUSE the owner is who makes final decision. I personally seen specs and plans and owner comes back and says too expensive etc so owner tells Engineer to cut cost. and engineer probably told owner wont work. but owner does not care because they are not regulated. like me selling you a car with no engine its be your fault for not looking under hood (i would never do that but private investors DONT GIVE A SHIT)
Just last week, my wife and I went into a dealer in northeast Ohio specifically looking at one model of 5'er we were interested in and explained why and that we had no intention of going bigger. In a matter of minutes, the dealer tried talking us into a rig that was at least 5k heavier and couldn't be towed by our 3/4 ton pickup. I hate this type of dealer and if he was the only one with the rig we wanted, i wouldn't buy it from him!
Thank you for your always honest conversations and insight into the industry NERD!
I try man. Thank you so much. I always wonder if what you experienced is a case of a shifty salesperson or a bad store culture
They are simply under built. I currently own an RV rental company and own a trucking company. Before I got started in this, I was a mechanical engineer. Simply put, camper frames are so under built it is mind numbing to me. For instance, look at a 7,500lb GVWR car trailer and then look at a camper with the same GVWR. Mainly the front "A" frame area. Then go look at a gooseneck trailer and then these big fifth wheels. It is insane the difference. Of course, they are going to flex and when things flex, they will eventually give out. Yes things need to flex but the right material and thickness is needed to withstand years of flex before failure. Like you said, they are not designed for that. As for fifth wheel pin box changeouts, people need to look into air ride hitches for their trucks instead. They add to the suspension cushioning and will take the away from the shock that is transferred through the frame.
I always appreciate your candor. There is nothing more impressive than honesty. On your dealer comment: You're absolutely right! There are not enough educated salespeople. I can't tell you how many times we were told. "Yeah, you can tow that with your half ton. No problem," when I knew from a lot of research (A lot of it from you), that it was too heavy for our F-150. We actually had a guy a few months ago that asked us right off the bat about our tow vehicle and then steered us away from overly heavy trailers. I let him know that it was much appreciated. I can't thank you enough for all of the RV education you have provided me. As a woman, I get a lot of people surprised I know my stuff when we go to look. My husband just stands back and listens with a big smile, which is pretty funny.
I think it’s really awesome that you got to encounter someone out there who is trying to do it right though
haha girl yep. Me too. Blue Compass tried to screw me. i not an idiot They add on 2% interest above what bank gives customer. you add up 2% interest on every loan that millions of dollars they squeeze out of customers.
This says a lot!
My wife wanted a 5th wheel camper, but I told her I will agree to get what we previously had, but no RV. After I explained my reasoning, she agreed 100%.
A few years ago, we had a 42' living quarters 4-horse trailer with slide-outs. All welded aluminum frame, all aluminum exterior skin and the floor from front to rear was extruded interlocked aluminum (no wood). The only steel was the gooseneck, electric jacks and torsion axles. Built to haul (4) 1,000+ lb horses. We used that trailer many times camping at campgrounds without horses. Could fold in the tack room and use the back as a toy hauler. We pulled that trailer all over NC, VA and TN mountains for a few years, most of the time was towing 2 horses and on occasion 3 or 4. I pulled it from western TN to central NC to get home and see that my wife accidentally left a cup half full of drink on the kitchen countertop, that cup was still on the counter and not a drop of drink was on the counter, which says a lot for torsion axles and a well-built trailer. Of the many thousands of miles I towed that trailer and the countless nights camping, I never had to repair anything. I just done annual maintenance on hubs and brakes, we used it year-around.
Camper - My Mother-law purchased a new 35' camper. It was towed from factory to the dealership on the NC coast. Towed 6 miles to a campground where it was set on blocks and tied down. Two years later she wanted to move it to another campground on the coast, so I towed it approx. 100 miles to a campground where it was set on blocks and tied down. Now, 6 years later and less than 1,000 towed miles, it is falling apart. Every year she has to get multiple items repaired on that trailer, including rotted flooring, leaking roof, AC unit replaced, water heater replacement and so on, it's non-stop. This is with a 74 yr old woman staying there 2-3 months a year and it sitting (with hvac on, conditioned). I couldn't imagine what a disaster that camper would have been towing it a few thousand miles a year with it falling apart just sitting on blocks!
It's astonishing how many things aren't standard or required on an RV. Thank you for sharing this information! I learned a lot of different things I will need to be mindful of as a future RV owner.
Glad it was helpful!
EXACTLY WHY THEY MAKE 50% profit on this pile of junk.
Thank you Josh for your homework and continued sharing with the community. I just purchased my first RV (5th wheel) then “Frame Flex/ failure posts all over the interweb to scare the crap out of me. To some of the points in your video: I have been following you (and others) for over nearly two years before purchasing - evaluating my needs, tow vehicle specs, reading RV manufacture info and stickers/data tags. The BIGGEST thing that NEVER crossed my mind was that an RV might NOT have been manufactured for the sole purpose of dragging it all over the place. Maybe mine is… how should I know?? Manufacturers and dealers really need to help us understand these things and most importantly, as you stated make as much information about the their products readily available and factual. Keep the pressure on Josh and keep up the good work!
Ty so much. What did you get btw?
@@JoshtheRVNerd thanks for the reply Josh. I purchase a GD 150 series 270BN. It’s just the wife and I. We liked the floor plan a lot and wanted the 30ft length for National Parks etc. After all of my research GD, seemed at least, to still be a good brand. Seems to be different being said these days but the workmanship on our rig beat out most others we looked at in that class. FYI: I’m in California now but lived/ worked in Coldwater for 3 years and remember your family’s business.
Nailed it! Good work Josh. Now everyone go to your corners, figure things out, implement those changes, and let's work things for the better.
It feels like a pipe dream but it really is realistically possible
As a retired truck, driver, I approve of this. People watch your axle weights if you have a halftime and fill up the back of the bed of the truck with firewood, it might tow terribly.Just sayin
Absolutely! Mechanic speaking Anytime you overload a vehicle suspension it will ride on an overload spring or bump stop( or when hitting a big bump the spring rate will increase dramatically) transferring to the axle housing and trailer frame. If your back and butt feel it, your trailer feels it! The public roads are also getting so bad with pot holes, causing all types of problems
Ty Bruce
You have to be honest and call a spade a spade.
I have seen many of the same RVs having this frame failure issue.
Those RVrs are weighing their RVs, they are using the correct hitches, they are pulling with appropriate trucks (f350, 3500, etc).
I am an engineer by trade.
If you don't test and build with factors of safety, you will see what is happening. The manufacturer under-designed the frame.
They (RV manufacturer) made claims they cannot hold up to.
Enough is enough.
Quit blaming consumers.
Blame the ones responsible.
Did you take away from this that I was blaming consumers? Because I don’t feel that’s really where everyone needs to look. I think they’re using Arby’s the way that they’ve been led to believe they could. And that lack of clarity and information is a major problem.
@JoshtheRVNerd ,
Josh, I have been watching you for over a year now.
I have always thought that you were being upfront and honest with the information given until this video.
Manufacturers are not dealing fairly with the consumers.
You have to be the consumer's advocate.
If an RV Manufacturer doesn't like it, so be it.
Please be the advocate for the consumer and don't protect the manufacturers from faulty manufacturing processes and designs.
Dave here. I too watched the whole video and you did put the majority of blame on education and overweight. Nothing was put at the design table, especially the frame design. IMHO, it is ridiculous to build a 40+ foot RV with huge water / waste tanks and a cargo capacity of 1500 pounds. EDIT - especially for rigs "designed" with a designated washer (at 140ish pounds) and dryer (at 65ish pounds) location on one side of the front and not directly over the pin box. I have no dog in this race, but we almost did in late 2019. So very glad we didn't buy a RV.
I agree,. 100% blame on the manufacturing. What education can a consumer possibly do to be sure a manufacturer has properly engineered and then built the structure inside the trailer?
I am totally turned off with the whole industry. We bought a mint condition High country instead of a Grand Design because I am very educated on spotting improper design and build. We were being shown a brand new Grand Design and I went to simply open a door in the kitchen and the entire door came off in my hands. Tiny screws that had been "stripped " when sunk into the wood. How can I ever know what the parts I can't see are going to hold up over time?
Like the FRAME!
I like you Josh but in this video you are trying to spread blame over everyone! How can a customer be held accounted for frame's breaking other then complete abuse of the trailer and it's intended purpose.
I hope this bury's any manufacturer like Grand Design and wipes them out. The problem is that another one will fill the void.
agree with you. the other older gentleman who is a certified inspector all he does is click bait so people will
buy his materials!!
Preach brother - I have been wanting to get a 5th wheel, but with the sudden rash of broken frames (some call it flex). I have been doing some reach and noticed that most are the big 45’ trailers. Have seen several smaller (avg 35’) that have been all the way to Alaska that haven’t had that problem. I know that things break, and know RV’s aren’t any different. I just don’t want to wind up paying another 16,000 on top of purchase price for a repair that isn’t normal wear and tear.
Great job, great info! I just have a problem with someone purchasing any rv and you can only use it so many times or the frame will break. Especially if you have spent $150k or more.
Thanks for the videos!
Thanks, Josh for looking out for the consumer, educating us and helping to keep us safe. You're amazing!
You bet
I hope everyone appreciates the automotive industry. What a vehicle lives through compared to just about anything else is truly remarkable
Toyota makes an awesome vehicle. Some American models just rust out too much. My daughter just bought a brand new Chevrolet Traverse. Its already having electrical problems. A part has been on order a month. It took them a month to decide what part to try. Junk, junk, junk. All this electrical crap is garbage. And wait until you are charged a fee to use your heated seats 🙄
@@mycharmedunicorn8715 Here is A fun game to play as you drive around. Notice that 99% of all vehicles you will see with a headlight or driving light out will be a Chevrolet/General Motors vehicle! Obviously a wiring harness issue! Mostly trucks and SUVs, although you will see many cars as well.
Amen!!!! Automotive collision specialist here! I can agree!
@@mycharmedunicorn8715parts are a nightmare still… Rust issues depends where you live
One thing I did not hear you discussing was about the manufacturer of the frame and what the manufacturer of the RV asked for.
I know companies like Lippert build to the specs of the RV manufacturer. One thing I would like to know is when the frame is built to their specs and is finished do they have the frame manufacturer like Lippert look at the finished product to make sure it is still within the specs. Many of the RV manufacturers change designs and layouts that could affect that.
I also wonder what other types of 5th wheel hitch types like the Anderson affect this. We have a 45’ Alliance Valor toy hauler. It pulls the RV great but is that supported by the RV manufacturer.
The pinbox frame issue has been going on since early to mid 2000's. The name has been changed but is still the same issue.. 2 things are causing the issues. Trying to save weight by using lighter frames and poor manufacturing by using the wrong welding process by people that aren't skilled. My last 5thwheel had the entire upper deck(pinbox to the front vertical wall) attached to four small ouriggers with 4 small less than 2inch long tack welds. None of it was directly attached to the main frame, then the main frame was built with 8inch ibeam. This was a 14000lb rated toyhauler. Needless to say the main frame rails bent. My current rv is a 21 torque bumper pull, I found supply stickers on frame, it was supposed to be a different brand, non toyhauler with through frame slideout even had holes cut out, non of which my trailer is. Needless to say I will be upgrading the frame before i have issues.
Josh isn't wrong in his points but the main problem the frames just aren't stout enough. To make them substantially stronger would only take 2-300 lbs heavier and better train the welders doing the work.
RARELY will I sit down and watch a 42 minute on TH-cam. But this was well worth it. I have already seen a few videos on this issue with towables lately and this one is by far, the best and most helpful. We recently purchased our sixth camper and being another 46' toy hauler, I was extremely concerned with the "Frame Flex" topic.
But you hit on several great points that I think everyone should note; especially those who are buying the bigger fifth wheels (although Airstream is even having some frame failures on select models). Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts and your knowledge. You're an outstanding salesman.
Yeah it can happen anywhere for a number of reasons but recently seems most concentrated in a specific sector
Josh, i am new to your channel but have watched many of your videos. Yes, you are a nerd with a goofy laugh, however, you present many facts about the RV industry, and I have enjoyed your information. I wish more Dealers would get on board and start a trend to improve information and to question the build quality of the RV's they purchase from the manufacturers. I couldn't help but to comment on your resent video "Frame Flex" You are the first Dealer I have heard to comment on this forbidden subject. The RV industry is under scrutiny, not only frame failure but quality control and service. RV manufacturers know they can do more to correct their problem areas. They know the consumers are frustrated. So why do they take a slow reactive approach rather than a proactive approach, or to put it direct, no approach at all. You are 100% correct about Manufacturers. They need to inform the dealers and consumers more information about the product they are building. The term "full time RV", the term " 4 seasons ready". Weigh each and every RV before it leaves the plant. These are but a few of the recommendations. If they need to build a stronger frame, then build it and cut down the load capacity to keep the weigh balanced. "Big Truck and Big RV" did a video on the steel used in RVs. I believe he used a 38' RV as an example. To go from a 10" main I beam to a 12" I beam with the same gauge steel was approx 60lbs per side or 120lbs total. Use more gussets to support connections. This is nothing new, The RV industry already knows this. The biggest problems in frame failure I have seen is very poor welding. I would bet most RV frames from Lippert, the welders are not certified, not trained properly, and not quality controlled checked on every RV frame they produce. If RVs are designed and advertised to travel full time on the road then build them to travel on the road safely. The frame is the core and the strength and should not fail. What if 1% of all cars frames failed. What if 1% of all semi-trailer frames failed. What do you think would happen. Things would change and fast. The RV manufacturers are under regulated and as long as this exists the problems will continue. Suspension systems need upgraded. Why would you install 5200lb axles and springs and bearings and shackles when the trailer is rated for a max load of 10,800lbs. I know what you're going to say, the truck picks up 10% of the weigh. However, that is static weight, at rest. Now let's factor in moving weigh, you will lose most or all of that 10% while driving at safe highway speeds on the roads in America. Build the frames and suspension systems to exceed the max weigh rating of the RV. Why are owners required to fix the manufacturers problems. The 1 YEAR WARRANTY isn't enough. Stand behind your product and give a 2-3-year warranty. Owners are tired of having to upgrade Chinese tires. Shackles, springs and bolts that fail with PLASTIC Bushings, and Frame failure. Enough is enough. I think we all know why, "High Profit" and CREED.
Most of us who tow our RV with a semi-truck remove the commercial hitch and install a suspension RV hitch. The suspension hitch provides a much smoother ride. The commercial hitch does not pivot side to side putting more stress on the RV frame.
That’s something I’m going to try to learn a little bit more about giving the opportunity
Thank you for sharing this
Those that use a class 8 truck normally single up( remove a drive axle) and only use air ride suspension and rv air ride hitch.
I think you absolutely nailed it on this one! Education and information are sorely lacking. I spent 5 years researching before buying my RV, and still didn't find many of the answers.
All of these issues you discussed are reasons why I decided to go with a Class A. Like your customer, I work from the road nearly fulltime, and I sold my sticks n bricks. Class As aren't a perfect solution to these issues, but for fulltimers and most-timers, it's a good start. Even so, educating customers (and dealers) on the limitations is a MUST.
Thank you so much Josh. I'm so glad to see that you were willing to put on your big boy panties and talk about these subjects that people either don't want to talk about or are scared to talk about or just don't know anything about. I agree with you 100% that the industry needs to start designing and building their RVs around some of the aspects that you spoke about. Now I am one of these people that do have a massive 41 ft fifth wheel and I do have experience with fifth wheels this large since 2012. I learned very quickly that the more that I move and travel with an RV this large that the acceleration of the damage to the RV was increasing at a very fast rate so being part of an organization like Thousand Trails that you move from park to park every 21 days was putting a toll on my RV that financially I was not going to be able to recover from and that was without any catastrophic issues that may pop up from time to time. So I had to learn how to extend my stays at different location and slow the traveling way way way way way way down which allowed me to actually enjoy the places that I was visiting for a longer period of time and not being rushed but at least I'm not destroying the RV going down the highway. Moving the RV 17 times a year was not very good for my investment and I would end up replacing the RV every 3 to 5 years because it would be just totally worn out and my pocketbook would be empty. I totally agree with you we need to find out how these RVs are designed by the manufacturers for the type of use that needs to go along with this particular RV like Towing it with the wrong vehicle or taking it down roads that the RV was not meant to go down or upgrading Parts on the RV that were really not designed for that particular RV and of course the big one not knowing the weight of the RV when it's going down the road and how it coincides with the maximum use weight of the RV and if the weight is evenly distributed and not just put in one location which puts stress on all of the complete structure in that area. I think that the manufacturers could help with that by not just putting one large garage containment area up front and spreading different storage areas in different areas of the RV so that we as consumers can spread our weight over the complete frame and not just over the pin box. And Josh again I just want to say excellent job bringing this up please let's not forget what you started please let's continue to talk to the manufacturers and the dealers and the customers and try to solve these issues and not forget about this video you put out and allow all of these items to be swept under the rug and never resolved.
Thank You,
Bill
Ty Bill
I never comment on YT videos but this is one of the most informative and balanced videos I have ever seen. Thank You for an excellent presentation!
Thank you, Mark
Josh for RV President! Your honesty is truly appreciated.
Thx 🙏🏻
Josh just got to say, you are very informative and provide honest feedback based on your experiences and knowledge. Appreciate ya' keeping our health and wallets safe. May God bless your daily life. Keep those wheels rollin' .
I sure try man. TY
That was awesome! Someone who is new to the RV lifestyle hears about these challenges in the industry and I want to run far away. However, Josh you give me confidence that there are a lot of people in the RV industry that want more, higher standards, greater information and to set standards for improved best practices across all aspects of the industry. Thank you for the honest feedback and clear recommendations that you provided. Keep it coming!! This video should be standard for everyone to absorb so they can focus on improving the customer experience and increasing standards.
Thank you for the kind words. I feel sometimes like I’m shouting into the void but hopefully little conversations start leading the bigger conversations and eventually changes and improvements for everyone.
@@JoshtheRVNerd You did a fabulous job WITHOUT naming names! I agree with what you couldn't say, but folks are saying it for you: SLOW DOWN, PEOPLE. Plus, the terrible conditions of our interstates. When road conditions are horrible SLOW DOWN. Who cares if the drivers around you get peeved... you could kill them if your rig blew a tire and the vast majority of people have no idea that we can't stop on a dime or that jackknifing isn't just a special effect on the movie screen.
We're looking for our first RV the third time around. We love the one we live in now, but taking care of it and getting repairs has torn it up even more. The 'things that need fixing/adjusting' in any new camper have turned into an endless loop of, "We take it to get it fixed from what you Service Guys did and find three more problems where you tore stuff up fixing the previous stuff you tore up." We're not buying from a Big Box Camper Store again.
The fella I contacted at the Bish's in Texas (we're in Missouri) asked straight up the questions you said should be asked first. He sent me a list of questions and is also a full-timer. I am hoping (and feel tentatively hopeful that) we're in good hands.
Can you do a video weighing the pros and cons (or do a compare and contrast that you're comfortable with) of fifth wheels that purport to be full-timer/four seasons friendly, e.g., Montana and High Country- Brinkley comes right out and says it on their web site. I know of others, as well. OR, simply bring it to our attention that such-and-such brand is full-timer ready?
I'm searching for info, hard, but I may not find info on a lesser known brand that you might have heard of.
My hat off to you for your recent vid with JD and BTBRV. I LEARNED SO MUCH. PLEASE DO MORE OF THOSE.
Josh, Another huge reason I went with the stick and tin Jayco. I love the look and weight of the fiberglass type campers but not the problems related to it. Thanks again Josh for TELLING IT LIKE IT IS! You are a Lone Ranger in this industry, keep doing what you do, we love it.
I appreciate that. I do my best
I agree with the stick and tin Jaycos.I have one but pull it little...its still like new parked at a Louisiana govt park 170 miles away.They are tried and true and the Amish really used common sense at every angle.
They’re tried and true with close to 100 years of track record. I’m taking a vintage trailer restoration online class by Larry at Mobiltec. Those old engineers figured this out so long ago with not even a calculator and the fact there’s 1000’s still in existence which proves stick and tin is king. If we could look into the future, every old fiberglass trailer will be in the landfill. Not being mean, just look at the facts. They are doomed to fail and almost impossible to fix for the average person. A 70 year old camper can be stripped to the frame, rebuilt with wood, most times even skins can be salvaged. Interior birch panels, amber shellac, can look and function better than new. $10,000 can completely rebuild A small camper by the owner, and if you reseal the doors and windows and cap rail if so equipped every 7 years, they literally last forever.
Our first camper was a Jayco. I'll have to be shown conclusive evidence before EVER buying one again. It was a nightmare to haul and things fell apart if you looked at them. We liked it and might very well still be in it, but for the fact that we brought it to our first campsite (an hour from the dealer with me driving exceptionally careful on well-maintained roads) leveled it and parked it and if something could fall off, detach, or simply not work - it did.
THANK YOU! I am so tired of all the incorrect information and basic wildfire panic going around.
Mostly, its either 1) and engineering failure or, 2) a manufacturing failure. And any of that could be exacerbated by overloading, extended use and publicity - many are the larger fifth wheels veing used fulltimd by popular TH-cam personalities.
And none of them are taking any responsibility for the damage. If you point out that they may have contributed to the failure, you will be called a troll. I believe the cause is a combination of both manufacturer and owners.
I believe that there are way to many moving parts here to find the absolute reason (s) this is happening. ie: The road conditions, I-80 in ohio for example. The truck pulling it, is the suspension or tight or loose. The pin box jerking the trailer back and forth, The trailer suspension bouncing the trailer, improper loading of the trailer ( nose heavy or worse tail heavy or just overloaded entirely), Usage of said trailer (NOT accusing but salty northern roads or worse yet salty Florida beach air.) how the trailer is driven (85 mph down I-95 heading to Margaritaville, We have all seen it!) , is it a full time usage, proper setup/weight distribution and teardown, storage conditions when not in use. Oh the list goes on and on. Why yes sometimes I believe it is the fault of the trailer mfg or should I say the guy welding the rv frame on the line just having a bad day ( we all have had one at work admit it.), and last but certainly not least poor quality of materials received in the supply chain. All of these factors and more lead me to believe that in a case by case study we will find no one smoking gun but a combination of events and situations that is hard to quantify but all have roughly the same outcome.
@@michaelmccrindle1033 exactly! It's easy to point fingers at one thing or one entity but it most likely is a combination of things.
@@ryanryan6207 You are so right...I would be considered a troll. I believe there are many causes to what is going on. I have a 2018 394 Momentum, no issues to date. However, I tow slower than most ~65ish mph as a safety precaution. Here in Utah, I could do up to 80 mph and be within the speed limit.
Like many, I'm concerned about potential frame damage with my trailer and looking at everything that I might do to protect my trailer. FYI, I will be inspecting the lags in the bedroom and front of the frame. I've seen pictures of those put in by Grand Design and believe larger 1/2" lags that fit the holes in the frame would be an improvement. Keeping tow speeds down, especially on rough roads will surely help. I will be weighing my trailer to assure I'm not overloaded while also cleaning out and reducing weight in the front storage. Towing without a full tank of water whenever possible is also desirable. While not always possible, minimizing hard accelerations and abrupt stops is also desirable. (Keeping a good safe distance from vehicles makes this is easier to manage) As for acceleration, many of our TVs have more horsepower and torque than ever before. Hard acceleration will definitely impact the pinbox to frame and the vertical frame supports.
For those of us with a trailer already, we cannot change the engineering or build of our trailers...we need to do something preventative to protect our investment as they are. I'd love to see/hear more ideas from others about their thoughts. Thanks ryanryan6204 for your post. Love this channel. Thanks to Josh for taking the time to provide his insights.
I appreciate your candor 1:12. The meat of your video - 2:50 to 39:12. - must also be complimented for your valiant attempt at nuance in explaining the issue and empathy for those who have had to endure the wretchedness of it all . Keep up the great work, Josh!
Thank you
I strongly agree that information needs to be more readily available. Additionally, build standards should be improved and customer service after the sale needs to be upgraded. Thanks for sharing this information. Awesome
My pleasure! Ty for listening. I know it was a lot
I've seen it once. Someone took a toy hauler and converted it to gooseneck and overloaded it.
You always add education to your videos, and it is much appreciated.
Overloading is a issue but goosenecks are okay depending on the manufacturer. Grand design allows for the reese goosebox and therefore should not ever be a problem.
Josh for President . Probably the best video I’ve seen you provide for the camping community . We literally watch tons of your videos before we purchased our 1st rv . And continued to do so every time we upgraded .
With decades of testing and forensic failure analysis engineering experience, the RV Industry has legendary unacceptable component, parts, manufacturing, assembly, designs, and business practices that end users are frankly done with all the bs.
With record RV sales during the pandemic has resulted in record number of pissed off end users.
As a result there have been significant litigation cases significant talk of new legislative actions that hopefully will significantly improve designs, reliability, warranty, and service related issues for all parties involved.
Your comments are excellent, you have been very neutral, presenting the facts, god bless you
I appreciate that very much
I appreciate your time and thoughts on this. As someone that is dealing with an issue directly caused by information given by the dealer, I agree that people need better training and education. Dealers also need to stand behind damage issues caused by bad info their representatives supplied during the demo at pick up.
I think that’s a very fair statement
Loads of great information Josh. Thank you for all the hard work and digging you put into this video. Not even being a 5th wheel owner myself, I appreciate all the hard work you did. Not an easy topic to talk about but you did a great job looking at all the angles and diving in to get the information out to help others out while learning yourself. 👍🏻
I appreciate it. Ty for watching
He’s lying.
It’s bad engineering and workmanship is main cause of these failures
Love your videos and how educational they are. A subsection under the idea of "having too much truck" could also be, towing your 45' triple axle toy hauler at 85mph is probably a huge cause of some of this flex. I don't believe any of these trailers are engineered and designed to travel down the horrible Colorado highways at the speeds some of these tow vehicles are capable of. I try to stay below 65 everywhere possible and always watch the skidmarks on the highway showing me the heaves and bumps to slow down over.
This is your absolute best video EVER. I lost count of how many times you had me scratching my head thinking I never thought of that.
Wow ty
Yes we weighed our 2021 Montana High Country 295RL when we first got it and found out that the the truck itself was 360 lbs over on the chassis. Had to get a dually. I told the dealer when I was purchasing the 5th wheel that I was going to be overweight and their response was you have plenty of truck. I always have the trailer leveled before opening any slides. You are correct their are array of issues that causes the problems. I always say we can fix things that are broke but we are better if we know what caused it to break.
I think everyone knows rv quality has gone down !!! I believe manufacturers should build better products. With substantial better suspensions and pin boxes. These are meant to be moved often. Clearly, there's a problem with quality and building. Nice job Josh, great video !!!
Yup, especially the COVID(years) pandemic builds.
They will build you a better product if you’re willing to pay the price.
My rv cost me 150k. How much more price should i pay ?
I think these RVs have a lot of natural flex so they can keep the weight down and they never considered that everything would literally break apart from shifting while going down the road . After the situation on wet roads the camper will literally rot away and everything leaking...😮
REALLY GREAT VIDEO my friend!
Thank you, sir. Information defeats mystification. You can’t fault a person for not knowing what wasn’t made known to them
@@JoshtheRVNerdeveryone says we need to collaborate....maybe it's time we do 😂
@BigTruckBigRV never been opposed to it. It’s just tough when we live so far apart.
Great Vid Josh. "Flexing" is normal not just in RV's but everything basically that moves, autos, trucks, aircraft, ships, metal swing sets. Failure? Start with excessive flexing, leading to metal fatigue. Add in the fact that travel down the road every trip is an earthquake (talk about flex!) and as you pointed out -overloading, especially off center loading can increase stress. 40 ft going down the road? It's flex city Josh! Then add in off center loading and a cambered road - -. Back in the day (I'm dating myself) 40 ft single wide trailers were designed to be moved once or twice, then left at their permanent location and supported. Today we see them moving down the road for a weeks vacation or less. Are the frames any stronger??? Higher tensile steel? You hit a lot of topics and it was a great video. Everyone shares some blame on this with information - Maker, Dealers, Owners etc. It also does no good to watch a video where an owner says "My frame broke" without giving full information on how, when, what types of roads, temps, how many miles, what the tow vehicle is, weight, new, used and many other items.
Lemon law would go along way to fix the rv industry for the consumer.
It's not just manufacturers, owners are just as much to blame. Ford chevy and dodge keeps giving these owners more power, more power is not what you need when towing
@@macbook802 That is precisely why when I get a new truck, I take a couple of spark plugs out so I don't have all that power. ;)
One of the biggest things we did to stop any risk of flex with our Alpine 3270RL was adding heavy duty shocks and airbags. We pull with a 2015 GMC 2500HD. We knew we were on the threshold for weight when we purchased. It has made all the difference in the ride as the passenger, it pulls more even and straighter, I have noticed there is no shifting or chaos in the trailer itself after a pull. I want to say the whole upgrade was less than $1500. The other thing we did - change the tires from the OEM HiSpec "china bombs" and replaced with Carlisle. We had them weigh the tires to see the difference. HiSpec weighed 26lbs per tire....Carlisle 55lbs per tire. Totally different pulling experience with the new tires.
Thank you for sharing this! I always appreciate ownership experience
With all of the other channels detailing their issues, this is a breath of fresh air. This represents the best depth of the issue. You raise an important issue when modifications are done to the hitch or using the trailerering systems out of specifications. In the same way, if I modify the suspension on my jeep wrangler, I assume the responsibility of potential failures. It is no longer Jeeps problem, even if it is a certified mechanic that does the work. It is not to shift blame, it is to assume the risk. The other points were fantastic. It does not diminish the issue, but it is a reminder of the rare nature of this issue. Great tips to check as we are on the road. Thank you again.
Really appreciate it
I applaud all the time and research that it has taken you to present this video. This issue has scared my wife and I from pursuing the purchase of a newer rv. But I have been truly enlightened by your video and now I feel much more informed about selecting an rv. Thank you so much.
Really appreciate you taking the time to watch. I won't claim to be the only person who knows what's going on here. There's more to learn still certainly. But I do think properly informing yourself before a purchase can more likely yield a positive result
Josh, Thanks for presenting this video. Very good info. You brought up trucks. Here's one I have learned the hard way. A 1/2 ton truck might very well be rated at 9-14k towing. What people do not understand is that the camper might just be within the weight limits of the truck, however, when it is 37.8ft long, it can really be a challenge to tow it properly and safely. Ask me how I know.....
On the 5er's... You brought up several points, but, I think that adding things like a washer / dryer to the front of the RV can contribute to the issue. And, I also believe that front kitchen models are another problem. Really, I personally believe that you should keep most of the weight over the axles or even further back, and not towards the front. I am no expert, but, weight could very well be causing these issues. Just my humble opinion, but, I would never have a washer/dryer in the front area, nor a front kitchen with that heavy residential fridge up there.
Finally, I think that some of the problem is indeed the manufacturer, trying to get more for less. The frame should be able to exceed the design of the RV. Some of that would boil down to using thicker steel, and, work with the frame manufacturer to develop frames that were designed for the weight the RV builder is going put on the frame.
Spot on. I have a video somewhere in my library, here talking about trailer length versus towing length. That’s a very good point.
Thanks for your honest insight, I love Bish's RV. Any RV I've ever bought, is from your Idaho Falls facility, and I won't go anywhere else. They have always been fair and honest with me. Their service and quick turnaround is second to none.
Thank you so much
I will say that due to the length of this video, I had to wait a few days to watch it. Once again, your video was explained perfectly. I had never heard of too much truck before. But I drove MDT's for almost 30 years. So it makes sense. They bounce terribly. Especially when underweight. I will say that I have watched your videos for almost 6 years now. And you are one of the reasons we have the 5th wheel we do. I made sure it wasn't too long, and it had an impressive cargo capacity. Thank you for being there for us, the consumers.
Yeah I know it was long but I really want to go thru the situation piece by piece
@@lanedelker9161 Which 5th wheel do you own?
Thank you so much Josh for explaining the frame flex. And the failure. I wanted you to ask you what it meant but I didn’t want feel dumb in asking. I’m so glad you are talking about it and explaining it. Thank you so much Josh!
You’re welcome Sherri. Glad it was helpful.
Josh,
My wife and I were at a show yesterday looking at RV's we were able to meet the owner of Alliance. Coley was very forth coming with all questions we had. To the point, his responses were in line with what you stated in this video. I asked him about the frame failure, and he did not avoid the question at all. As a matter of fact, he stated many of the same things you did as to why it is happening and where Alliance falls in that spectrum.
Thanks for always putting out the hard information and trying to do the right thing always.
I’m sure trying Phil. Thank you so much.
Our family is going full-time in a 23' Alliance Paradigm 390MP on Friday. After doing a lot of research and speaking to countless folks - both in the Alliance owners community and on the corporate side - we felt the most comfortable going with them. Time will tell if we made the right call but comments like yours are always reassuring to hear. Transparency is king!
Josh thank you!! We are picking up our brand new Keystone Fuzion 419 on Monday! We have been talking a lot about the frame crack/failure that happens with these big boys! My husband just said, “I wish Josh would do a video about the frame issues!” ….and lo and behold, here it is! We did feel that a lot of the issues are coming with overloading as well as towing with the wrong rig. Never did we think about having “too much truck,” but that makes perfect sense. We’ve got a one ton dually with a 24k Husky hitch. We thought a lot about how NOT to overload it. We were thinking that switching to residential mattress might be part of the issue but who knows. We’re keeping the RV king in there just in case! Lol 😂 The Fuzions tend to crack on the bedroom slide out with the East/West beds. Of course that’s ours. We will take this video to heart and really appreciate you. ❤
Get a note pad and pencil go through your new rig with a fine tooth comb. Your list of things to repair will be extensive. Get an appointment before you leave for your first trip for just after you return. Very hard to schedule repairs. Our list was 2 pages long ie; the shower wall was not actually attached to a piece of wood! Wire slide was to slack on 1 side, one heat vent was blocked with foam. Just weird stuff indicated to me quality control was lacking.
I would add towing speed and very poor condition of our interstate highway system as apart of this complex problem as well. Well covered Josh.
you are so right about semi tractors, I just found out recently too, that its not a good idea. I didn't do it, but a buddy did, and it destroyed his pin box. Also as a former trucker, bob-tailing is treacherous. I also wouldn't doubt some people overload with cargo, without thinking about it, just seems natural to load up the family junk.
Fantastic Video Josh!
You nailed a lot of great information
Thank you for taking the time to watch and listen
We're not worthy ! We're not worthy ! Thanks Josh for this amazing video ! We learned so much from this video. We really appreciate your candid approach to helping RV'ers, dealers, manufacturers. We watched dozens and dozens of your videos for the past couple of years. After learning from those videos, we decided to purchase our RV from Bish's in Montana. Funny thing - the RV was built in Indiana (a couple hours from Dayton, where we live), then hauled to Montana, and then hauled back to Dayton when we purchased it in 2022. The early life fails where immediately evident. I fixed several issues myself, and we got other things fixed under the manufacturer's warranty. Please keep making these videos ! Stay nerdy, my friend.
Thank you for taking the time to watch. I do my best and I won’t claim to always get everything right but I’ll keep trying.
Plans if mine start to flex. 1- remove axles and transfer rv to a 40ft Custom PJ Trailer. 2- go back to enjoying life
What an awesome, informative, and thorough video. My wife and I have owned two travel trailers and a fifth wheel. We are now own a Lance truck camper that we purchased new and really enjoy it. If we ever make the switch back to a trailer, it’s good to have the information you have provided. Outstanding work!
I own a 2022 Grand Design 260RD, the drivers side frame failed near the slide, Grand design took care of us 1000%, picked it up and took it back to Elkhart, fixed it, and returned it to us and made everything right. Still a happy GD customer. They stood behind the product and there customer.
Thanks for sharing. Love hearing from owners like this
Thank you so much for “going there”!! I love learning from you and I truly appreciate how humble you are! AGAIN Thank you!
You are so welcome
Seems you are putting a lot of this on owners and not the manufacturers, if they built a quality product meant to hold up over the long haul, a lot of these issues would be moot.
I would be curious to know if you saw the end where I had a message for mfgs and dealers
Or any of the times where I said “how can you fault an owner for never being told how they were “supposed” to use it”
I encourage all to watch the entire video before leaving a comment. Thank you Josh for doing that what is not easy. It would be great for someone with the resources to put out a database of specs, customer ratings, and known issues.
I appreciate this comment. It’s intended to be taken as a whole. Some people wanting to paraphrase and vilify
Wow! I learn so much through your channel, Josh. Thank you for this ❤
My pleasure!
Josh: I really appreicate all your videos with all the open and honest information. During your research on frame flex/failure, have you looked at weld quality. If there are poor welds and/or no full penetration welds, this could be another contributing factor.
Josh I think you hit the mark on every subject in you video, best advice you give as soon as you drive off the lot go get the RV weighed while it is empty with all current options installed and then once you put all your stuff in it, then go get weighed again to find out if you are indeed, overweight
RVs are called recreational vehicles most are not meant to be lived in full-time and moved every week like some people do but there is a lot and I mean a lot of people, including myself that do live in it full-time.
I think the frame flex/failure has to do with a lot of what you said from overloading the RV to not properly distributing the weight in the RV.
My short term hope is I can help educate people to protect themselves
Long term I’d like to see more education and information but.. I am not holding my breath
Josh you did a great job covering this isdue. I would add one thing. Manufactures these days use computers to design their frames instead of slide rules. There is no longer a need to round up as in the pre computer days. The frame is designed as close as posdible to save weight and allow the 1/2 ton trucks to pull the maximum size camper. The design does not allow for the extreme road codition and high speed of much older frames that were intentionally over designed.
It’s true really
Thank you Josh for trying your best to keep us informed. I hate it so much when my parents are right 😂. I love your videos and try our best like you to be honest in the videos we make. The only way change can happen is if information is given.
Man I try!
Thank you Josh. You always provide fantastic information and videos. You covering this "mine field within a minefield" topic and preseenting the facts are why we love, respect and TRUST you.
All are accountable for this, and it can be made much better, if not done away with entirely.
I really don’t disagree and I really feel it begins with proper education of all parties involved and distribution of information
Great job at covering a very challenging and sensitive topic that could easily turn into a ‘cancel’. You managed it very well and fair.
Yeah, there’s a variety of comments, but I think most of the folks who didn’t appreciate what I had to say were folks who probably already had their minds made up before tuning in. I think what is shared here is pretty fair. Frame flex is a real thing, but I also strongly feel it’s a symptom of the greater problem in play.
Thank you Josh.
Very informative video.
Understandably a complex and suggestive video.
After having many towables over the years, we are still learning.
You are correct at all perspectives.
We tow a 26 foot grand design travel trailer with a 1/2 ton.
And many can argue that point.
But in my defense.
I am very aware of limitations.
And we have made adjustments through the years to feel confident in our abilities.
Getting a weigh safe equalizer hitch was the best purchase we made and also a big eye opener.
As we set it up and started to travel. We have had to constantly monitor the hitch weight and make adjustments almost daily.
Because the load/ distributed weight changes.
(Holding tanks)
Plus, we feel we use our trailer more than the average consumer.
With that said.
It's important how much you plan realistically to use your trailer and set it up accordingly.
We do plan to add shocks to our setup based upon our usage.
It's all a learning curve.
We should always not assume we know it all and be humble in our assessments.
Thank you!
My pleasure. Thank you for listening and having an open mind. Kind of like I learned about the larger trucks being a factor in the equation we are always still capable of learning.
And I’ll never claim I know it all or have it all right
I watched this video in it’s entirety. You have provided me with great information as a new 5th wheel owner. I have tried to gather information from social media but that is hard to do because of the variety of options you get from that platform. Thank you for all you do for the camping community! And keep up the good work!!! See you at the CAT scales.
Ty
I love to see your passion in educating the salespeople and the first time buyers and even the second time buyers. Great Channel
I appreciate that!
Knowledge is key in anything that anyone does. The customer needs all the information they can get and they need to do their own research as well. You are a wealth of knowledge.
Ty
Read the Fine Print on the Registration sticker:
It says this vehicle “Do Not Over Weigh this unit 2000.LBS.
Above the Yellow Sticker it says don’t put no more than 1,500-2000. Pounds.
Thank you Uncle Josh for being there for us. My wife and I just bought a Pinnacle that claims to be 4 seasons ready. That’s ok. I’m not 4 seasons ready. When I retire we will follow the sun. I never want to test that RV in freezing temperatures.
It’s just another case where I feel there needs to be more specific explanation of what the phrasing means
What I have seen / heard about flex / frame failures is poor welding skills of the RV’s substructure, especially fifth wheels by the frame maker or RV manufacturer. In the whole pin box area basically the whole floor substructure underneath the master bedroom bed. If welding at the wrong temperature/ and or feed, it will weaken the metal a 1/4” up to and inch from the actual weld. Thus turning that metals monocular make up to a more brittle metal. Thus more susceptible to actually cracking or ripping.
This applies more to travel trailers. Some use a 4, some a 6” and others a 8” frame rail. Some weld the frame on top of the “A” hitch area. A few integrate that “A” into the frame providing a more solid structure.
The brand of RV travel trailer ( Outdoors RV / Arctic Fox ) uses the 8” frame rails, over sized axles ( 5200’s vs 3500’s or 4000’s ) and shock absorbers (4) thus a very healthy 3500 lb. cargo capacity vs 800-1800 for a 29’ unit.
A cheap RV is a cheap RV. You get what you paid for.
I enjoyed your video, Josh. As a current RV owner, I can tell you that I personally took close to a year of doing research prior to purchasing an RV. People fail to realize that an RV is a piece of equipment. This piece of equipment requires maintenance, inspection, and constant care. As a retired USAF aircraft mechanic, I have become trained to do inspection with a careful eye. I have been told I go overboard with what I do. However, I really dont care what others say. I have weighed my RV empty and loaded with everything we use on a normal trip. We pack our items spaced throughout the RV. As you stated in the video, the cargo capacity is listed as what you can load throughout the RV, not just in one part of the RV. To me, common sense should come into play. The dealership we purchased ours from came right out and said no RV was designed to be used for full-time use. The more you use something, the faster it wears out. Also, people need to stop "upgrading" their RV. The RV was engineered to be like how you purchased it. Modifications to me lead to trouble unless it is performed by a qualified person. Your video made a ton of good points. Thanks for making it!
Thank you so much I really appreciate it
I owned an Attitude toy hauler with a Lippert frame that actually split horizontally because of the bad design of the supports welded on to the I-beam frame over the leaf springs. Instead of welding the angle iron supports vertically, from top to bottom, on the I-beam they welded them horizontally, side to side, on the I-beam. The flexing of the I-beam frame caused it to crack right at the weld points of the supports they put in. When I contacted them about this they said it was a known issue and told me I had to bring it to one of their authorized repair centers both of which were at least 3 states away. I was unable to tow this trailer as this happened on a cross country trip. I took it to a dept of transportation certified shop for big rig trailer repair and the first thing they told me was the failure was due to the supports being welded horizontally across the frame. The weld weakened the frame and created a stress point every time the frame flexed those support brackets finally caused it to crack. The shop said the supports should have been welded vertically. I had to pay out of pocket for repairs and it took me 2 months to finally get Lippert to pay up for their bad design. I still see welds like this on some trailer frames and have no idea why they continue to do so.
So much very good information that all rv buyers should watch before buying. We fell into the rv salesman told us our 3/4 ton diesel truck could pull his 40’ 5-wheel with no trouble. Stopping was a problem.
Yeah, stopping powers a big part of that effective tow rating
@@JoshtheRVNerd yes, I wish you had this fourteen years ago, because I would have learned a lot, and how unsafe we were. Thanks Josh, and please keep up the great job of giving us the information we need.
Josh you are one of the very few RV salesperson who has the integrity to tell the truth about products. too many dealerships are all about the sale then who cares about warranty work they try and get you to sign an affidavit that all problems have to be taken up with the manufacture and thus starts the everyone pointing fingers it's not their problem.
I try. I think it's really important to understand dealerships also have a hand in getting us to the point this pot has finally boiled over
I find that there is a scary number of people who fail to take into account the weight of their fresh , grey and black tanks. A couple years ago at a provincial park I told an RV owner how much weight he was adding to the trailer by filling up his 114 L water tank at the start of his travel day. That, plus a full fuel tank (209L) added 323 kg (712 lbs). I will never forget the look on his face. Absolute shock. For some reason, it never occurred to him that this added to the weight. Others I e spoken to assumed that the "empty" trailer weight was actually calculated with full tanks. Education is key. I've been learning for two years now, and I'm still at least a year out from purchasing.
First off, thanks to both you Josh and Bish’s RV for your honesty, integrity and transparency for this and other RV matters! Applause👏👏👏 working and managing at an executive level in the Transportation business there has never been a shortage of hot topic & controversial topics but “Frame Flex” seems to have soared to high levels very fast! Nevertheless, your information was spot on so thanks! Your struggle with “what” exactly to say was never more apparent than this one, great job keeping it grounded and more fact based! Thank you!
It’s our pleasure. Thank you.
Josh once again you have presented a tough topic gracefully. SUGGESTION, get with Big truck big rv JD and RV LIFE Style Channel and do a pod cast. You three would knock this out of the park😊
I just did a podcast with RV Miles. I’m happy to chat with anyone anytime.
Greetings,
As a professional truck driver for over 35 years and a tow company owner in the Colorado Rockies, I've recovered many trailers of all kinds. When you were talking about what trucks that can over stress the pin box I can show some clarity on that.
1) semi trucks : If the truck has air ride then the suspension is not the issue. The issue is more if the torque rating and the air brakes. With the king pin not under the trailer like on a semi trailer but out in front and down, the horizontal pulling will cause a twisting action on the pin box. A normal diesel pickup will have anywhere from 500 to 1000 lb-ft of torque, but a semi truck can have anywhere from 1500 to over 2000 lb-ft of torque in which it over stresses the trailer, also the air brakes if not careful will put more braking pressure than the trailer brakes can't keep up so it stresses the pin box in the opposite direction. Braking should be equal between truck and trailer.
2) F450-F550 : here is where the suspension comes into play. The spring stacks on the F450 and F550 are heavy enough that if you are going to use one you probably should get a fifth wheel with airbags.
Ty for taking a minute to share your insights and experience. Be safe out there
Great video Josh and thank you for being as candid as possible on this topic. We have one of those large RVs that may be in this category that is experiencing “frame flex” albeit it hasn’t reared its ugly head as of yet. I will add one more of the possible contributing factors are these horrific roads we have across the USA, in some cases they are so rough and abrupt it is outright dangerous to pull an RV on some of these roads. It’s truly a wonder that this isn’t even more of a prolific problem than it is. These roads are absolutely horrendous and probably caused by a massive increase in the numbers of heavy 18 wheelers traveling our roads over the past couple decades. I’m not trying to be political, but some of the funds being sent/spent elsewhere should be applied to fixing and improving our roads.