LIPPERT ENGINEERING VP Explains RV Frame Flex in depth! Normal vs Abnormal!
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ย. 2024
- #rv #towing #trucks
BigTruckBigRV LIFE Channel: @BTBRV LIFE
Instagram: / bigtruckbigrv
Facebook: / bigtruckbigrv
Links to many of the accessories I review and use from etrailer!
www.etrailer.c...
RV Towing Upgrades
*Reese Goosebox Gen3: www.etrailer.c...
*B&W OEM Gooseball: www.etrailer.c...
*B&W Fifth Wheel Hitch: www.etrailer.c...
*B&W Sliding Fifth Wheel Hitch: www.etrailer.c...
*Equalizer Weight Distribution Hitch: www.etrailer.c...
*B&W Tow and Stow Hitch: www.etrailer.c...
*Curt Drop Hitch: www.etrailer.c...
RV and Trailer Equipment Upgrades
*RoadArmor Suspension Equalizer: www.etrailer.c...
*HD Shackle Straps and Wet Bolts: www.etrailer.c...
*RV Suspension Upgrade (travel trailer, Cargo Trailer): www.etrailer.c...
*16” G Rated Wheel Tire Combo: www.etrailer.c...
*Goodyear Endurance 15” Trailer Tire: www.etrailer.c...
*Goodyear Endurance 16” Trailer Tire: www.etrailer.c...
*Furrion Wireless Backup Camera: www.etrailer.c...
*Furrion Wireless Side and Rear Cameras: www.etrailer.c...
*Phoenix Electric Trailer Jack 4,000 lbs: www.etrailer.c...
*GlowStep Revolution Steps: www.etrailer.c...
*LCI Solid Steps: www.etrailer.c...
*LCI AutoLeveling System: www.etrailer.c...
*Reese Fifth Wheel Dual Motor Landing Gear: www.etrailer.c...
Must Have Equipment!
*6000 Watt Generator Kit: www.etrailer.c...
*3200 Watt Inverter Generator: www.etrailer.c...
*2000 Watt Inverter Generator: www.etrailer.c...
*30amp to 50amp Power Cord: www.etrailer.c...
*LED RV Replacement Taillights: www.etrailer.c...
*Fastway Tire Chocks: www.etrailer.c...
*RV Foam Sprayer: www.etrailer.c...
*RV Soap: www.etrailer.c...
Truck Upgrades
*Airlift 5000 Airbag Kit: www.etrailer.c...
*Airlift Wireless Air Controller: www.etrailer.c...
*Access Toolbox Bed Cover: www.etrailer.c...
*Bedrug Bed Liner: www.etrailer.c...
*Floormats: www.etrailer.c...
*Etrailer.com is the official sponsor of my channel. Equipment reviewed may have been provided by them as part of that sponsorship. All reviews are honest and unbiased. This channel is for entertainment purposes, and you should always do your own research prior to making a decision!
Sponsored items may be in this video. Always research multiple sources before making a purchasing decision. As an Amazon Associate, I earn commission from qualifying purchases.
Please read this. If you feel that your frame is experiencing something outside what's being described here YOU SHOULD absolutely reach out to Lippert, the RV manufacturer, and any other resource you think might be able to help you isolate and possibly repair the problem. The purpose of these videos was not to focus blaming anyone area, but to express what typically is happening when you see the type of movement and flex and most people are seeing. People getting upset at my interview need to understand how questions must be asked in this type of a format to get an answer at all. All the questions were questions that either I came up with or were submitted from my viewers. I sincerely apologize if anyone feels that I was soft or not digging deep enough. I was impressed that they were at least willing to have a conversation about this. I don't think there's any way to make everyone happy here, my goal was to provide a valuable amount of information to at least help identify what one of the issues may be as a starting point towards solving it. Everyone situation will be different. Again, if you feel that Lippert is at fault or if you would simply like to tour their facilities and see how they make their product, you should reach out to them.
Well i guess im just screwed. Bought a Momentum 351 toy hauler a couple years ago, have not pulled it across country or anything, but traveled around the northeast and southeast quite a bit. Now my frame is gonna break? WTH
Lippert CLEARLY dont understand stress risers.. the numerous frame fails ive seen have all initiated at a weld point.. so many intersecting angles on the main rails at the step.. thats not to say they build all their chassis that way but i havent seen any of differing basic design.. not much info uot there on King of the Road chassis
Saying that the frame relies on a styrofoam laminated wall with 14 gauge aluminum square tubing, stuffed with wood lagged on to place where flex is designed to “happen” is admitting that the frame was not strong enough. 😂
Exactly.
🎯
The wall cladding is not, by design, a “structural” element… it depends on the frame for full support. As others have said below, saying these foam laminated with aluminum walls are structural is a proverbial point of a crooked finger.
@@deerless999 Nothings a 'structural' element in a trailer home. Not to anyone outside of the 'trailer industry'.
To all other engineers these are glorified rolling cardboard boxes.
as soon as the engineer started mentioning the wood structure being integral to the frame "system" my eyes rolled back in my head..........unbelievable!!!
A new semi trailer that can handle 40 thousands pounds 48 feet is 48 thousand dollars. When a cost of a toy hauler 43 ft is a 130,000.00 . They definitely can build a better frame.
Yeah as truck driver, new RV owner, I agree. Another issue is most frames has a aluminum upper deck so they have 2 metals and that doesn't always work. Specially with the rough roads these days.
these examples shown in the video I bet are welded by a true welder not the 600 trained to get it done fast and cost lowering instead of certified welder is the issue. I have a 2016 Montana and the welds are far from good that is the issue with Frame failure, not the Flex which is understandable in all frames.
As in the blog they state the can build stronger no problem but the wieght goes up pro rata.
Agree, but most are 53 feet.
With decades of senior mechanical, advanced material reinforcement and forensic testing and failure analysis engineering experience, the RV industry is full of total bs.
I wonder how many people have never once weighed their RV?
Excellent! I think the folks here would like to hear an outside expert opinion or evaluation on what might be happening, especially if the industry is hiding something or glossing something over. Thoughts?
Build the frame so that you do not have to rely on the side wall.
The idea that a laminated wall will perform as a chassis truss is total bs. With slide outs cutting the wall 90%. The knee is always under stress. So the rv manufacturer would need a verslam under the roof and stiff wall panels. Cheap t h o r or win a bagel low bid panels will nor do it. If the shell was as thick as a fiberglass boat hull without big holes it would wotk. Bravo to op.
@@petercampbell4220 The skin of a plane plays a major part in it's structure. You have to use it to maintain weight limits. From the internet, "Modern airplanes are built using a method called monocoque construction. This method uses stressed skin as the main structural component. To help visualize this, think of a soda can. The skin sits around two bulkheads, or formers (the top and bottom of the can), providing a surprisingly strong unit when undamaged".
This is what 80k-100k plus gets you in the RV world today. A giant spin cycle of finger pointing. Key take away from this segment is the Engineer saying "or If it was attached incorrectly". I personally do not think Lippert shoulders most of the blame here. At least they are defending their product instead of berating and ignoring customers with the problem ... like Grand Design is doing. This whole issue is one catastrophic frame failure on the road that seriously hurts or kills someone, and game over. Lippert is distancing itself from the Manufacturers. As it should. Where are you Grand Design? Crickets....
Actually only Lippert has responded at all right?
Of course they responded. They are blaming the owner for overloading it and the manufacturer for over “engineering” the attachments.
I agree, I have owned 2 brand new campers in less than 2 years. First was a 2022 keystone alpine 3720md worst purchase I’ve ever made. It literally stayed at the dealer more than at my house. So I took a beating traded it for a 2024 grand design momentum 381ms last fall spent one weekend in it for the furnace to not work and inverter failed. I’m thinking about cutting it loose and being done with camping all together. As long as we put up with it they are going to sell it to us that simple.
@@tmb93-- There are custom RV builders whose quality is light years ahead of these Moe Rons. Keep in mind that every $1 of cost at the factory becomes $3 of MSRP. Factories want to double their money so that becomes dealer cost. The dealer would like to make 33% of selling price too but usually they must discount 15 to 20% below MSRP to make the sale. And anyone who pays more than 20% below MSRP for a new RV is a fool.
But with custom builders, there is no dealer. You deal direct with the builder. Their "sales" person is back on the line as soon as you leave the store. You pay a significant deposit and you wait as long as it takes. If you die or back out on the deal, the builder is in a good position to sell your rig at a significant discount (deducting your deposit) and cover their expenses. With a custom builder, you get a *much* superior product *and* a better price. People get in a hurry and they don't want to wait and IMHO, they get what they deserve. :(
It’s a deflection from the fact that two separate companies are not working together to resolve the problem. Just engineer the framework to work independently from relying on the coach to hold up itself…..!!!!
32 years of manufacturing, welding. That's not strong enough. All that leverage of a 2x6 tube
Looks like way too much weight for that structure.
They changed design to the Rhinobox, which is a 6x6 square tube that they rely on for less torsion.
Agreed. The thickness alone is way too thin. Their frames are wet noodles going down the road relying on the house to stiffen things up… not a great combination.
Correct.
Everyone wants to tow a long trailer with a half ton, and wonders why. Heck look at the payload of a 3/4 diesel. Gotta put the trailers on slim fast to make weight.
The first 4 minutes, complete BS. Correction the first seven and a half minutes. What was the point of you going there if you're just going to answer your own questions?
Clarification for viewers. Many people have no idea that there are lag bolts that go through the chassis and into the side wall framing to tie the units together. Alot is riding on those bolts. When they work loose you can expect failure.
Riged
@@Itsa_Mea And why are they working loose? Water damage is a rhter unlikely root cause.
@@Itsa_Mea the whole thing is a bad joke ✌️
@@pif0514 road shock alone is enough. Thin aluminum tubing with wood on the inside with a wood lag bolt is not an ideal fastener.
JD, the first two parts of this video of your three-part series have been excellent. But, now you have just destroyed everything you have been trying to teach us about frame failure in this third video. You would ask a question and then instead of letting the engineer answer the question, you answered it yourself. I appreciate what you are saying, but maybe you should’ve held your comments until the end of the video. But that being said, thank you for this information.
Sorry, I am a content hog sometimes.. I'm working on it
So how would you know if you have a problem in its early stages.
So if I understand this correctly, lag bolts and wood screws going through aluminum into wood are what we are relying on to support our 5th wheels... LOVELY!
I kind of agree my friend
My thoughts exactly. It's not sufficient.
Exactly. You got it! When my Wildcat failed all those bolts hidden behind the carpet were loose. This is something I think we all need to become familiar with and check them periodically.
Good lord. These roads alone in the US could cause this to happen.
@@dokedoker3340 sarcasm?
I like a lot of JDs videos, but he doesn’t let others talk, I have seen this in many of his interview videos. He asked the question and answered his own question. Didn’t learn anything from the first few minutes.
Yeah, I struggle with that
and you often beat the answer to death@@BigTruckBigRV
@@waltfriedrich7631😂 it's called rephrasing 101 times just to be sure ya got it right 😂🍻
Totally right in point. And his answers to his own questions are assumptions and not based in fact …..just opinion.
This all leads to slanted videos the appear biased
Building these frames to rely on the sidewalls for structure support is absolutely ridiculous. That frame should be built and welded to not rely on anything but itself. The sidewalls are attached with lag bolts which are in general backing out and loosening its hold.
I'm not totally sure that you can completely eliminate the two structures needing to support each other to some degree. I would certainly like to see a frame that is built so strong that it does not rely at all on the rest of the structure. It would be interesting to see how much that frame weighs and how it could limit the floor plan options.
@@BigTruckBigRV maybe reach out to Spacecraft. I know they build mostly fifth wheels on semi chassis, but they also build a standard fifth wheel that can be towed with a dually.
Maybe they should downsize for the sake of extending the life of these RV’s. If someone wants a triple axle toy hauler then they’ll be forced to buy a F550 or larger. At least the safety factor is there. Right now there is zero factor for error.
Absolutely right. Flimsy walls don't support anything.
Semi van trailers rely on the walls to help support the load. This is a common and proven practice. Semi trailers will collapse when they are damaged and continue to be used without proper repairs, or more often, when overloaded.
As an engineer.... Lippert claiming the house sidewalls and roof are a "semi-monocoque structure" (the proper term) is ridiculous. The Lippert engineer can't calculate the frame loads without understanding the strength of the "house".... therefore, Lippert needs to design to worse case scenario (ie the frame must carry all the load). I put the blame on Lippert.....and their substandard engineering, or corporate greed, or both. Big Truck RV should have talked to an engineer before doing the Lippert interview so they would know the right questions to ask. I don't know this, but my guess is if an engineer wanted to interview Lippert, Lippert wouldn't do the interview. In court.... Lippert's engineering explanation won't hold up. I wouldn't want to be that Lippert engineer. I couldn't sleep at night.
They are no longer engineering their products - just going by rules of thumb, hope for the best, it worked before, extrapolated the last design, trusted the supplier etc, etc. It will really cost them in recalls, new sales, lost jobs and lawsuits.
I think you have sold out to Lippert! I am completely disgusted with your cave-in!!!!
I would call this leading the witness, I noticed you pretty much did all the talking and explaining. The person that I think a lot of us would like to have heard talk barely said 50 words, that would be the engineer.
Agreed, I mentioned this in the last video too.
This guy JD can certainly run his yap!
@@samfixitguy1661yeah, he talks WAYY to much sometimes! Ok All the time. Character flaw for sure
Know it all .......
Gosh Sir, would have been nice to hear Lipperts engineer answer some questions, could’ve sworn you were paid by Lippert…. I wrongly expected an interview, what we got instead was a monogram by you about what your opinion and interpretation is…..
Spending probably 80k on a fifth wheel trailer, frame breaks and the frame manufacturer and the rv company both point away liability from themselves and the buyer and insurance companies end up being the ones getting screwed.
It appears any minor damage could lead to failure of the chassis. I think in previous videos the VP was not sure of the loading to the chassis. You would think that providing additonal reinforcement to the potential failure area,s would be reasonable. This assumes that the chassis is not the intial failure point. Once the chassis fails the superstructure is bound to become detached. The failure will only become evident when the superstructure(walls) starts to move, so what comes first the chicken or the egg.
I don't disagree with you at all here. Minor damage seams to due big potential damage.
I was thinking the same thing
Why not install some gussets in that area to reenforce that area??? New Horizons and Spacecraft do.
So, now these issues are on the front burner, Lippert should immediately work with the manufacturers to strengthen the weak points. Sure, it’ll cost a few xtra $$$, but a whole lot of problems could be mitigated.
@@k-mparkerhave u watched all 3 videos?
Rv manufacturer says what they want. Rv manufacturer is concerned about the weight, how do they advertise f250 towable if the thing weighs too much? The engineer guy says in one of the vids yes they can beef up the frames, but the rv manufacturer does not because it adds more weight. Lippert is delivering a product as requested by the manufacturer.
Now let's assume Lippert is at least welding the frames together properly and quality checking. 🍻
@@SpykersB you make a lot of assumptions. In one video they stated they didnt know what superstructure was being added to their chasis, in another video they state the chasis and superstructure must work together as a unit. How can they design a chasis if they don't know the loading being applied to it, and how can you state the whole structure transfers loads as one unit if you don't know what the superstructure is. It doesn't make any sense. The owners should be dealing with the manufacturer of the RV not the parts supplier.
It is not a 2" laminated with styrofoam wall that fails and causes the frames to crack.
Don't recall how my Heartland toy hauler wall was attached but I know my DRV is not side bolted. The frames crack either because they are 'built to specs' (which are not spec'd enough) or the steel fails or the welds fail. Frame cracking with DRV's happen often enough that that band aid approach is to tell users to get a $3,000+ air ride hitch to soften the blow on bumps. Bottom line is the complete trailer package can't travel across the country with risking frame failure. Similar to when the rash of spring hangers and or springs were failing - who made those?
I think if they had independent suspension on the massive rigs the damage could be reduced greatly. But they also need to go back to the drawing board on steel thickness and where they place gussets. Even if it adds another 1000lb. The customer will just need a bigger truck and that’s not a bad thing. It’ll hopefully keep people from pulling with undersized tow vehicles.
@@mikesnifferpippets3733 DRV's (except toy haulers unless ordered) have independent suspension.
@@mikesnifferpippets3733absolutely agree with u!
I think that's the way it should go! 💯. But tell the rv manufacturers they can't make f250 barely towables anymore? Right? And then the f250 owners r screaming they got nothing to barely tow!! 😂🍻
@@SonarTravels"...They can say NO" ?
😂 that's like, here baby in a high chair eat this spoon of stuff cause it's good for you! Baby says no way cause that's not what i want. So ok, solution is don't feed baby because they won't comply. Baby dies n Lippert dies, so is that a win win?
Looks like neither of them have a solid explanation for the frame issues and are grasping for any for anything. It comes down to too heavy of a trailer for the frame it's on.
It's not just the 5th wheels that are experiencing issues. It's also the travel trailers tongues buckling. And the brackets that hold the suspension that are bending. But, Lippert says that it is isolated events then blows off the consumer. I've work in the steel manufacturing field for 26 years and have dealt with engineers that will sell you a ton of fluff just like this one is. Bad welds,cheap Chinese metal and poor design is what it always comes down to.
The stated they use domestic steel.
They can say whatever they want
They do but you just don’t want to believe it. Your minds made up.
@@robertl9065-- I've seen some of the thin metal just tear apart -- there are voids in the edges. If that is American steel, their processes and quality control have taken a major dive as well. :(
@@jaubry71 that’s probably one issue here, if you want really good steel you have to get it from China, they have the best and most advanced steel mills!
Great videos of you telling Lippert engineers what is wrong. LOL. Did you graduate from MIT?
ok all fine and dandy, but who fixes it and who covers it ?????
You do! That's the brilliance of their deflect and deny strategy! :(
The frame shown is probably the best welded and prettiest in the plant.
But still does not have enough welds!
@@williamdevlin7667i believe the welds locations are eched into the material. Not sure if more are needed based on engineering loads or if they are only in those areas for a specific reason.
I work in trailer manufacturing, it is my understanding that you cannot weld it solid, or it will warp twist and bend un-evenly as your welding it as stuff gets hot, It will also be to rigid and break instead of flex.@@BigTruckBigRV
I have looked at a LOT of the welds on my new DRV and they look just as good as this one.
Oh i'm sure too 😂. The show room model of perfection. 🍻
Watched all parts of your frame flex videos. Not impressed at all. Here are a few questions that should have been asked (and hopefully, still can be answered):
1. What structrual analysis is Lippert performing when designing a frame? Do they perform any FEA? What safety factors are used? How do they account for dynamic loads (e.g. pot holes)?
2. They mention fatigue. What fatigue life are they taking into consideration? Again, is this done with FEA or simple hand calcs?
3. Welding: What weld procedures are they using? Do they use certified welders? What type of NDE, if any, id done on the completed welds?
4. Failing lag bolts: Water damage/or delamination is unlikely to cause failing lag bolt as they are bolted to the Al studs of the side wall. I am calling BS on that one. But what is really causing these failing lag bolts? Heavy impacts (e.g pot holes)? High stress area where upper deck connects to riser too weak/underdesigned (again has to do with structural analysis, fatigue, and weld quality)? Something else?
5 The 5th wheel shown at the end has a Curt Air Ride pin box. Would installing such a pin box help alleviating at least some of these issues by softening impact loads (assuming same overhang)?
Would be great if you could follow up with Lippert and get some answers to these questions🤞
This is absolutely coming soon.
Did anyone notice how few of welds were along the frame and the “sidewall strap” and the cross member between the two frame rails? “I don’t call it failure, because it can be repaired”. If it’s broken, isn’t that a failure? If you have a flat tire, the tire fails to hold air, but it can be repaired, so does that mean there’s not a failure of the tire? JD, you do a good job of answering the questions for the engineer. You’re only addressing the instance where maybe a sidewall detached for some reason, what about when the sidewalls are still in place and you’re having “frame flex/failure”? Lippert is accepting absolutely no responsibility for any of these failures, it’s all on the OEM builder.
Exactly!
The lack of continuous welds AND absolutely no triangular welded supports.
Lippert utilizes the ABSOLUTE minimum in structural engineering AND reliance on the coach builder to validate their minimalistic approach to frame construction.
I pity any consumer that buys any camper that uses a Lippert frame.
Spot on jerry
Funny, my toyhauler carries a 4,500 lb Jeep and rides on a frame that makes the GD momentum’s look like tinker toys.
Oh and it’s a Lippert frame.
The manufacturer specs what they want. Some just spec the cheapest they think they can get away with.
Unless they get sued, these companies will not do anything so the hell out of them if you’ve had an incident with their frames, sue the hell out of them
Imagine a F250 that required the bed and cab to be properly integrated to provide structural integrity.
I don’t wanna
That's how virtually all cars and SUVs are designed.
So true…,well said. My favorite is “oh but these things experience an earthquake every time they go down the road,”SO does my truck….and this is more money than my truck…!
If you know this, design accordingly.
Imagine having to slow down just because you're towing twice the weight. I don't wanna!
@@evanmartin7809 Cars and SUVs are unibody, not body on frame. Not even comparable design principles.
JD 90% of the video
Engineer: 10%…
So my question would be that if they know that this is happening…why are they not resolving this so that this does not happen? Why not reinforce where it's necessary so that it's resolving this issue? And how is the consumer to know if something inside of the frame is moving? It seems to me that it's an issue between both the chassis maker and the manufacturer of the RV. This is crazy.
Bingo!
So what you are saying is that the frames are meant for putting a cardboard box on it instead of a six figure trailer home on it. So how do you explain cracked frames throughout the length of the frame?????
Honestly you sofballed the daylights of of this interview.. I saw no accountability by lippert at all. Disappointing
This is so annoying. I'm going to run it through an analysis. But jd definitely said 10 words for every 1 they answered with. This is called leading the witness.
Let the company person talk. Interview talks to much and repeats to much
Yeah, I struggle there. When you're solely talking on a channel it's hard to let others talk sometimes.
I was in the heavy truck industry for 15 years supplying complete chassis to our customer. Our welders were certified and had to be recertified after a certain time. One of the test they had to pass a bend test. They would weld two pieces of metal that was prepared for them. After the weld was completed and cooled the metal was bent with a press. If the weld broke before the steel snapped then it was a bad weld. If the welds are breaking then there is not enough penetration between the pieces of metal. I have heard that there is a lot of turn over in RV manufacturing and I would be curious about their training records and welders certifications. If the steel is cracking then it is bad steel or under rated for the weight it is carrying. I would like to see how they attach the sub frame to the chassis. It seems like this is where this interview was pointing the finger.
I have past two code tests and they require skill and quality steel. At 8:02 in the video shows the frame isn’t strong enough for the job. When you drive the road there are many challenges. Pot holes, uneven roads, stress of driving with wind hitting the trailer, etc. 10:33 talks about the totality of the frame structure. The Lippert employee has been well trained to explain a poor quality design and build. 😢. Thanks for the video.
@@terremolander5243honestly, it probably comes more down to the fact that they have 600 welders in just this one facility that makes fifth wheel frames. Probably thousands of welders to manage the number of companies they supply to. It's hard enough to find five extremely good welders in the city. Imagine having to find thousands.
I have lost my respect for this channel do to biased report. Lippert must have paid plenty for this publicly
Not paid a penny. Just searching for the total picture. I tried to reach out to a few owners with the problems first but didn't hear back before my trip.
They knew the questions in advance.. you may think I'm not the right person to have done this interview, but you must also know that when dealing with a major corporation, even having a remote chance to talk with senior executives about a touchy subject like this is virtually impossible. I knew going into this that there would be some compromise in terms of my expectations and answers to questions. Any "TH-camr" thinking it would be any other way.....well, they never would have gotten a return call or past a administrative assistant. Plus, I plan on showing detailed frame manufacturering and testing...again, if I had gone in their "tempers flavored", I would have never gained access to. These are things people want to see AND know more about. Hope this helps you understand my reasoning.
Grand Design is the american manufacturing story. Are we really surprised by this? These are not cars that heavily engineered. These trailers have so many designs and pumped out from the factory with very minimal engineering. The grand design flexing debate is just so typical. New company founded on quality. People flock to brand because it is almost impossible to find quality thought out designs. Grand Design is bought by giant corporation who proceeds to cash in on that reputation and slowly morph it into just another crappy trailer. People buy grand design thinking they are getting quality then find out it is just another poorly engineered camper. Giant corporation that owns grand design doesn't stand behind product worried the news will tank their stock price.
Been around the trades for along time and alot of engineers. This is the standard pass the buck and Blame someone else BS. Here is a check.
Wow!!!!!!! Where do I start? If you were an attorney you would be scolded by the judge for leading the witness! If this was an attempt at journalism you failed miserably! The poor guy couldn't get a word in without being interrupted or having you answer the question for him
I am extremely surprised that Lippert agreed to this! This did nothing to help their reputation.
I do not own a fifth wheel and doubt I ever will, based on my visits to RV dealers. The overall quality of workmanship is very poor in all price categories. While I have found some of your content to be informing, I suggest you stay away from investigative Journalism!
What about the cracked frames we’ve seen on all the TH-cam videos . Where steel actually has a crack in it.
Possibly one of the following.. a few even. Frame issue, RV manufacturers issue, Disconnection of components, possible damage.
I like this channel, what's it called again 'Big MouthBigYap'?
Thanks for making sure i will never own a 5th wheel.
Looks very underbuilt
And your credentials are?
@michaelfinley9988 it just don't look like there a lot of guests your gust a yes man
If they are so great why are they breaking @michaelfinley9988
And the guy for lipped go back to video 2 when you ask about the stell where it comes grom he did not have a good answer
I would need expertise in metallurgy to say yes or no. I checked and I don’t have one. Misplaced my engineering degree too. Looks are deceiving
What happened to the corporate handler?
JD became the handler 😱
@@gcsladeactually, I was just excited to see a visual explanation of what detachment is. From a technical standpoint, I did learn about a symptom a lot of folks are probably having.
So, something to understand is how are the RV manufacturers attaching to the frame at the front. The holes in the Lippert frame are at the center of beam height...from engineering classes the stress is theoretically zero there...top half in compression and the bottom half in tension (bending beam theory). So, what is the RV sidewall structure in that area? Is it a 6" channel section to match the frame and hence have zero stress in the center of the section? The second aspect is lag bolts, not really a great fastening method. I don't design RVs or frames, but I would think you want high stiffness in the joint...no movement, in order to have the frame and super structure work as one when carrying the load. Much like trucks get larger and more wheel nuts as you go from F150 to F250/350 to F450/550, you need the increase friction and stiffness to carry the heavier loads...it is all about friction at the joint between wheel and hub. In order to transmit load to the super structure, you need friction at the joint, lag bolts trying to apply that friction force seems like a poor choice to me...threaded nut and bolt would be much better. They could even look at some fancy aerospace fasteners for more "blind" or "flush" installations.
That frame should be built stronger an not relying on the wall side to give it strength. Frame is definitely underbuilt
I would also love to see that, but I'd also be interested in how much it would weigh and how a good potentially affect a floor plan.
Watch some of the videos where they have made repairs. If they added 50lbs to the area it would be a lot@@BigTruckBigRV
Retired trailer builder & designer, I'd fire the guy who drafted that frame design, its wrong from a mile away, Id fire that guy and the mechanics that participated in that build. even a apprentice mechanic should warn management of the safety hazard.
FLEX, you guys are being BS. Look at a massive pickup trk frame, does it flex like a rubber band NO. the suspension job is FLEX to keep the frame from OVER FLEXing. airplane frame design will never work .
and the way the body mounted to the frame is WRONG, that will NEVER work. FLEX IS BAD, dont kid yourself
You obviously haven't designed anything if that's how you feel. Any engineer will tell you that all structures, especially at span, will flex. All you've done is proven a lack of understanding of this concept. Not trying to be mean, but everything you just typed is false.
I think the biggest flaw in these interviews was that you were answering the questions yourself as you asked them. I would prefer a format where you asked the questions and then silently let the engineers answer the questions with no prompting from you. It just made it feel like a canned, softball interview. Both sides, RV Manufacturere and Lippert, should make a concerted effort to resolve this problem before the class action lawsuits show up and force an unpleasant resolution for everyone. I'm talking voluntary recall on the part of the manufacturers and advice by the frame suppliers on how to prevent frame/house failures in the future. Come on guys, work together on this.
I have to ask about the intro. With all the videos on you tube out there regarding this, where has anyone in the videos ever said that the side walls not connected caused the issue. It seems kind of ridiculous that the first gusset back from the hitch is really underrated. Why wouldn’t you over engineer the most critical part of the trailer? Over engineering doesn’t mean adding hundreds of pound but maybe putting more plates connecting the tubular steel for more connection points. I understand that the complete unit all work’s together but Lippert seems to be too reliant on their customers being competent. Seems that this is done so the blame game can begin when there’s a failure.
I agree, the load path should be followed to the main frame with no sharp corners. A gusset in the corners reduces the chances of cracking at the stress riser.
I agree to a degree but I also wonder if that area is engineered specifically for the dynamic loads that will transfer to it while towing, would a gusset just eventually crack or cause material fatigue and eventual failure? This is a question that was on my mind but I forgot to ask while there.
Bad INTEGRATION. Poor design on BOTH chassis and house.
So if there is no reason why someone has any frame issues why is GD adding more supports as a part of their repair. At 12:45 this guy blames the RV manufacturing.
So they put you in a studio with a select frame and said they are never at fault? bs We've all seen the videos and pics of bad welds, bent or broken steel! It happens! In my opinion when they say they carry no blame, they're hiding something. Even Toyota makes bad ones sometimes
Don't think they said that. This was more to help people understand what's happening and scenarios that could happen not who is to blame.
Pretty much every TH-cam video I've seen on frame flex was remedied by a Lippert in-house or in-field welder fixing existing frame welds and also adding extra metal to reinforce the structure. Your structural engineer buddy makes it sound like it's not their fault. Using domestic steel is good, but I recently had to reattach the underbelly plastic in our drop frame area. I added extra self drilling screws and couldn't believe easily they went through the I beam.
Clearly, if that is renowned 'Made in Merikuh' steel, their process and quality control has taken a deep dive into the dumpster as well. :(
It depends on the grade. They can make a tin can that rusts out in a week or one that will last decades. It is all about the specs.@@JIMPETERSON-n7i
If you want to buy cheap steel for a high price you go with domestic. If you want cheap steel for a low price you buy overseas.
If you want quality steel for a high price you buy OVERSEAS!
@@freedomisnotnegotiable-- Sounds about right! :( And given a recent massive steel frame failure of a large building under construction at the Boise airport, I guess we know where they sourced their material. :(
Wow. BTBRV is absolutely carrying the whole discussion and explaining for Lippert here. He literally is putting words in Lipperts mouth. He pretty much did for all these videos. You have to wonder how much Lippert is giving him.
Here's what Lippert's giving me. They're giving me access to VP level employees who have never been filmed before, and wouldn't be filmed by someone who thinks they're going to go in as a shock journalist. They're giving me access to their factories, their processes, and their procedures, which have never been filmed before. They're giving me access to their engineers who have never been filmed before. They giving me access to their innovation and engineering department, which is never been filmed before. Going in as a shock journalist would only have a door closed in your face. This interview was to at least ask some questions, get some answers, and learn.
@@BigTruckBigRV I appreciate the reply sir! I am not trying to be offensive, but You did do over 90% of the talking and explaining in this video, as others have commented. To anyone who is watching and is aware of the issue, as well as the multiple welders, engineers and other professional in these comments have stated, This video is an obvious attempt by Lippert to shift blame. It doesn't help that you didn't let this engineer do 95% of the talking. We appreciate the videos, but they are obvious for what they are. It is a shame how this played out on your channel, but it has, and it looks very suspicious, even if you, yourself were not compromised.
Ok, we now understand the mechanics of the issue of frame flex (failure). Now how do folks get it repaired and who bares the responsibility of the repair? In my mind if it is as few as is being stated one would think that both the RV manufacturer and Lippert would team up to get the issue resolved. From all of the videos I have seen both have been playing dodge ball. And that is where the perception issue comes into play. There is one manufacturer that is leading in this and we all know who they are. Not to say that there are not others, however this manufacturer is getting the bulk of the bad press. It would benefit them to step up. I for one would not even consider them as I once did. They have done damage to their once good reputation. I think haulers in general need to be redesigned as they are beasts.
This video was purely for information. Reach out to whoever you find out is responsible.
@@BigTruckBigRVAnd it is greatly appreciated JD. Josh also put out some good information on this and it is important to understand the issue and you have provided some great insight and understanding. Thanks JD!
@@mikewadams1Josh 100% blamed the customer and i called him out in it. This was a video he did before JD did these 3 videos. And he did not discuss anything about sidewalls detaching from the frame, it was all user fault 🙄.
CLASS ACTION…!!!!
Agreed, I am at the point in life where my wife and I are deciding on selling everything where we live and either full time RV'ing (which would mean buying a bigger rig and truck) or moving to a warmer country. That "one manufacturer" was the leading candidate. Definitely not anymore. In fact, I don't think that I'd buy them at all at this point. Sad because they once seemed to have good customer service, but clearly do not anymore judging by all the videos I've seen on this issue. To me, both the manufacturer and Lippert have blame to take here.
WRONG The sidewall is not a part of the supporting structure. This is not a unibody construction. Lippert is avoiding responsibility. The front portion of the 5th wheel should be ridged. I think the DOT needs to get involved and inspect all RVs.
RVs are licensed by each state department of transportation. I know I am old but we need to remember Ralph Nader and the Nader Raiders. He did a lot to get consumer protection in the auto industry. Now is the time to make the RV industry responsible for all RVs out there.
JD, despite your objective in this series, you compromise it by answering critical questions, at great length and detail, that the Lippert engineer should have answered. You act like the expert and then ask Tim if you got it right. At that point, Tim may think, "If that answer satisfies JD's question, why would I change it?" You violate your role as neutral "investigator." You even use "we" in your narrative as if you're part of the Lippert team.
No wonder your subscribers are giving you push-back. Very deserved - stop trying to be the spokesperson. I had just subscribed, but now I have a very different assessment of your value as I shop for our first RV (a G 3950, BTW).
So disappointed at the soft ball questions and allowing canned answers. Here are a few basic questions that demand exact answers. My 5th wheel is x model the GVWR is xxxxx Give me the distribution weight across each 20% section of my unit from front to back. NO WAY AN INTELLIGENT MFG IS ACCEPTING THE COMMENT TELLING THEM SPREAD THE LOAD. No do your job as an engineer I was often asked this exact question and we answered IT no problem.
Next what is your acceptable flex for this unit and this is how you measure it. That Is it.
Everything else is just BS
BS, BS, BS.
“I wouldn’t call it a failure when it can be repaired” 😂 4:34
Yes. His lawyers coached him well to never agree it’s failure.
I studied reliability engineering for my MSc and you'd be amazed at the debates that occur on defining what a failure is. You would think that it would be a simple thing, but alas, it's not. However, I agree with you here, it's a failure (which is not defined dependant on its ability to be repaired or not).
Marginal design, lack of testing, poor management, no will to improve. They will pay dearly for their incompetence.
"But did you die?" -Lippert
@@davesantos2514 😂
I think the problem is these rv's are designed to travel maybe 20,000 miles in their lifetime not 20,000 to 30,000 miles a year.
Retired mechanical engineer/engineering manager here.
There is a certain amount of obfuscation/ liability shifting going on here.
Lippert frames should be resposible for establishing the long-term structural integrity of their frame by conducting proper finite element analysis (FEA) of their frames based on the design load(s) given to them by the manufacturer. This should be INDEPENDENT of the shell structure. Done properly, FEA on the structural steel frames would show the high-stress areas, the amount of flex in the frame and include the projected fatigue life of the steel used in the frame. The shell would then reduce the structural load on the frame; giving a certain amount of additional safety factor for things like impact loads due to potholes.
The MANUFACTURER of the RV should be responsible for conducting their own FEA or hire a consulting firm to do the FEA for the RV assembly. This would include the Lippert frame, the manufacturer's shell structure and the connection method between the frame and the shell. The RV manufacturer should design their RV shell for the predicted frame flex provided by Lippert's FEA and incorporate the proper materials and/or mechanical structure that would allow for the flexture of the frame without cracking the shell exterior or interior.
As an engineer, I would not be comfortable working at Lippert without FEA analysis for the frames as stand-alone structures. On the other hand, just like the Chief Engineer said, they cannot be held liable for the construction methods of the RV manufacturer.
Bet they have cut engineering costs to the bone and don't care.
The box that sits on the frame should not be carrying any weight. You are sending a subpar frame out. With nothing on the frame pulling like it looks in the video. These frames will brake.
IT IS FRAME FAILURE!!!
It can be fixed. Your are a liar.
Wow!!, Wow, what a load of stuff!! Why are you defending Lippert like this? I noticed, unless I missed it somehow, that you didn't show any close ups of the welds, trusses, or wiring holes on this HAND PICKED frame. Go watch the video from channel "Roving Vets" and see the shoddy welds, small, thin trusses that bowed, and cr**py over sided hole they cut for wiring. Then see if you really want to defend them. They, and you, sure seemed like you were implying the frame flex was mostly the fault of the owner. You, Sir, have lost loads of credibility with me!!
any commercial trailer have giant gussets in those "high stress areas" Design to flex, in that area, is designed to fail. I had a frame flex repair done. Part of the repair was to put 1/2" lag bolts through the 1/2" holes in the frame. They were originally 3/8" Anyone can deduce that a smaller bolt within a larger hole will wiggle from day ONE! As another said, if you pay $130k, you should get something built to last
Thanks for this series, and cudos to Lippert for "standing up" and letting you in. IMO, the panel system in this "design" is not, and should NOT be a crucial part of the superstructure. Those materials are not whats needed for repeated dynamic loading/unloading. This SHOULD be more like a transport trailer. I'm sure, in coming years the gusseting and cross support members at that stress point will change, because.... Wait for it... This design is flawed! RV siding is not capable of carrying these loads, in these conditions, over any reasonable time period (say up to 20 years).
Sorry but this is a BS excuse video.
Lippert KNOWS they took shortcuts and the result is obvious.
Artic Fox hasn't experienced these issues (although they have their own issues) with their frames....
I wouldn't buy a new fifth wheel with anyone's money let alone MY money...
You need to go back to school. You absolutely do not reinforce a steel frame or use composite design with "FOAM" filled laminated fiberglass and a steel support frame. The "STEEL" frame must provide a "Ridgid" platform for the box. You are either covering your butt with spin or a poor engineer.
Ya know, while this does make some sense. It also seems like some of the people that are having this frame flex issue have had no damage, not overloaded etc. Just normal wear and tear. Maybe RV manufactures should say something like, only for weekend use. But if I'm paying these disgusting high prices manufactures are charging it freakin should be able to travel all over the country multiple times. My bet would be it's the RV manufactures who are at fault (according to Lippert) with the way they are mounting things. It sure would be nice for some of the RV manufactures to step up and let you interview them, at least they could try and defend themselves rather than hide. Maybe Brinkley would let you talk with them since everyone seems to say how well built they are.
Having worked with heavy dropped fram trailors the wea/k point is the step from the flat deck to the upper pert kingpin , now on these lighter structurs as 5th wheelers the side walls enhance the rigidity of the step frame so if its not tied down and secured ridgid hence the flex and then the cracks as i understand of this blog, so in fact the home part / house build is the problem ? so as a lay person a simply fix would be to double up on the attechment bolts for very little cost which long term might save problems in the future, Grand Design whilst the main culprit at this moment in time it is happening to most 5th wheelers except the spacraft and other high end builders and whats the main differancys of the high end is WIEGHT they make them stronger , people full time in the high end 5th wheelers whilst most others are used just for weekends and holidays . -So to put it a little bluntly some fulltimes are doing it on the cheap ? with what is ment to be a holiday unit. Come to the conclusion Libbert build the chassis it is ask to build the OEM builders are selling the dream of you can use it fulltime when in fact its not meant to be at this wieght and price point.
JD, I'm hesitant to watch the video and the one prior to this or the others about these frame issues that you have recently posted because quite frankly, as others have sort of mentioned in just a few comments I've read, you are more than likely only going to give softball questions to the people you're interviewing and essentially it will become pointless.
The reality is, we know that you're not going to actually hold the manufacturer's or other people involved with their feet to the fire because you basically want to kiss their ass for many various reasons that I shouldn't have to point out but I'll point out a few anyway.
For one, if you want to be able to continue to do reviews on these campers, you have to play nice with them otherwise they will not allow you on their property or to do reviews on their campers. And if you can't do reviews on campers, then you will likely lose a lot of views on your channel. Which, in turn, would mean less revenue for you so you don't want to take that chance so of course you're going to not really ask them difficult questions or even point out a lot of the things that other owners are pointing out.
Also, although you may not be getting ad revenue directly from some of these manufacturers, I'm sure that you are getting some sort of kickback in a roundabout way from the other people that are providing ad revenue for you or some other sort of sponsorships or what have you. This is a given as you are obviously sponsored by a few different companies or have been over the years.
These are just a few reasons.
is saying that you have to be a complete dick head or asshole to these companies but the reality is, this is a major problem that has actually been going on for quite a few years now but it has only gained more popularity in the last year because more and more various TH-cam channels are talking about it. And I'm assuming the main reason why this is getting more traction over the last year is because more and more of these various TH-cam channels are finally getting to the point that they are getting popular enough that people are starting to notice.
Prior to a year or two ago, many of these channels were probably not very big or didn't have very many subscribers or views on many of their videos so this whole situation just didn't get noticed that much. At least not on youtube. However, this issue has been going on for a long time in other areas such as online forums or websites. But, not only with regard to the frame issues, the quality that these various campers and RVs are made in general, the quality has been complete shit.
And you know it has. But, rather than comment about that, you just basically gloss over it for the most part and don't discuss some of these things because again, if you do, you will likely not be allowed to do reviews on many of these various campers.
My guess is that you would not be allowed on many of the dealer lots because they wouldn't want to take the chance of you doing a poor review on one of their products which would obviously hurt their sales. So, of course you're not going to be asking the questions that should be asked in the first place.
But, to be fair here, for one thing, the reality is, it doesn't matter if you ask the questions that everybody else wants to know anyway because none of these manufacturers are going to answer them anyhow.
Right now, they are probably gearing themselves up and preparing to have a major lawsuit on their hands and they have actually probably been preparing for it for a few years now because they know that it's coming. If it hasn't started already, you know damn well that it's going to be coming. And as a result, they aren't going to be completely forthright with the information that people want to know because that would potentially incriminate them or maybe even be used as evidence or testimony in some sort of legal situation.
I'm not a lawyer so I'm only speculating here but I'm sure there are some legal things that are involved with why many of these manufacturers are not coming out and even commenting about the situation.
Grand Design themselves has actually tried to deny that there is even a problem to begin with which is just completely laughable and complete bullshit and everybody knows it. They have tried to claim that they haven't really had any issues or if they have, there are only maybe a handful. That's a complete lie. There are thousands of issues with these frames out there and they know damn well there's a major problem on their hands. But, again, for legal reasons, they aren't going to admit anything because the reality is, they will probably have to end up taking care of tens of thousands of units if not potentially hundreds of thousands of units and that will end up likely putting them out of business as they wouldn't be able to handle the money involved to take care of the issues. At least not likely.
The reality is, this falls on both Lippert and Grand Design together. It does matter a little bit if Grand Design was putting more weight on the frame than the frame was supposed to handle however, the fact that the front portion of these frames is cracking or coming apart like it is is completely unacceptable regardless of the additional weight that grand design or maybe even some of the owners may be putting on the camper frame itself. The thing is, for decades, camper frames have been built the way they have been built and you know damn well that owners have been putting more stuff in their campers than they should have been for decades and there haven't been issues. So, you can't tell me that the quality has gone up when it's obviously evident that the exact opposite is true.
This comes down to the basic simple fact that these manufacturers don't give a crap about their quality and they just wanted to push units out and make a profit plain and simple. It's like the scene in Fight Club where Edward Norton talks about his job as a risk assessment person at his insurance company where they have to figure out a calculated risk on whether or not to do a recall on a certain car based on if it is a hazard or not. That's what this comes down to with the camper or RV manufacturers. They're taking a calculated risk to decide whether or not they should manufacture the units to be of better quality or not. But, instead of placing the importance on quality and adding a few more welds or maybe even a few pieces of metal or getting a few thicker pieces of metal in certain areas to make the entire frame stronger, they would rather save a few dollars just to make more profit.
It's completely ridiculous but again, these business owners don't give a crap about the owners of their products. And if they did, this would not be happening but it is so that backs up my comments easily.
And the fact that a lot of these different businesses keep trying to go back and blame the whole covid situation is also quite laughable. Just because there was covid going on doesn't mean that you lower your standards on quality and just push units out and force your buyers to deal with the problems. That's completely bullshit as well and I'm tired of hearing the excuses from these different companies that covid was the problem. No, covid was not the problem. The fact that they didn't give a crap about the quality was the problem. If they didn't have enough employees to take care of the demand, then they shouldn't have put out as many units as they did. And if people wanted the units as badly as they did, then they should have increased the price even more even though it's already outlandishly ridiculous the way it is now and has been for the last decade or two. But, at least that would have helped deter a few people from purchasing some of the units which would have helped with lowering the demand. But instead, nope. They just wanted to keep pushing units out with crap quality. Well, you can't blame that on covid.
One last thing, I wouldn't trust these companies to fix the problems either. They want anywhere from about $10,000 to $25,000 and I think the average right now is about $15,000 to $20,000 to fix these problems. That's completely insane and quite frankly, these issues could probably be fixed with a couple thousand dollars at the most. Some of these frame issues shouldn't take more than a few pieces of metal and some additional welds to fix which shouldn't be weeks at a dealership or even days for that matter to fix. Maybe a day at the most so you might be looking at a few thousand dollars maximum. This idea that you got to spend $10,000 or more to fix this problem is ridiculous. People just need to go find a good welding shop and give them the business and be happy that they got their unit fixed and it will probably last a lot longer. If Lippert or grand design wasn't going to make sure that this issue was not going to happen in the first place, then why in the hell would you have any confidence to think that they would fix the issue after it happened? You would be a fool to want to take your unit to these people and ask them to fix it and then pay for it. The reality is, they should be paying for the fix to begin with but I wouldn't trust them to fix it anyway. I would rather pay another welding shop to fix the issue and be happy.
I have watch your channel now for a couple of years now and you usually have some good facts and credibility to your subjects.But the three videos you have posted with Lippert are ridiculous , they completely avoided or miss directed the real answers just like a pollution. Nothing was answered with any real substance.this last video just seeing the naked frame it is cleat that it is built with shot term use in mind and economical construction there is no way that it would hold up over time. there isn't even a full diagonal cross brace from the top deck to the main frame
Every structure in the history of the world that needs to support weight uses a diagonal cross brace or arch. Engineering 101.The fact that a "lag bolt" is holding a side wall is moronic!! and that now the frame will take enough extra load to fail is juts ridiculous. You have discredited yourself making this video and i no longer take any information you put out as credible.You clearly are taking Lippets bureaucratic swill as reasonable and not asking or demanding a clear and creditable answers from Lippert. They danced around what should be a strait forward answers. And you portrayed yourself as buying into it.
Lippert is obviously save face on an outbreak of poorly made and engineered products. I twas very transparent that they don't want to sand by a poorly made product and are struggling to make excuses.
These videos are nothing but a PR campaign for Lippert. If you want to do some real investigating, find out what the common failure point is and determine if it is a house or frame issue. I put my money on the frame. You have a long cantilever, which is inherently weak, along with substandard welds and design, and it fails. I don't need to be an engineer to see that. These videos have shed zero light as to the actual failure point(s). You find that and then work back from there to the cause, not this hypothetical nonsense you presented.
Too bad Tim just stood there with his hands in his pockets. You asked and answered your own questions. I thought Tim was going to be in the hot seat due to the many issues people are having with frame flex. There was no mention as to why they are turning people away instead of offering to repair their cracked frame or what they are doing to correct the problem. I still enjoy your videos.
This video just made things worse. Lippert needs to take some responsibility rather than deflecting it to the manufacturers. One question should have been do they believe this is a problem. My guess is Lippert does not believe there is a problem but only people's understanding. That is not good pr.
As a retired safety professional that has preformed hundreds of root cause analysis this video is flawed.
The interview seems very biased with no real engineering questions being asked.
Totally ridiculous interview and video.
Did anyone hear what grade of steel and the gauge of the steel?
Notice the frame is a Rhino frame. These frames are inherently more rigid at the pin box and don't allow for the flex that pushes the upper deck floor into the coach when the trailer is on the hitch. The 1621HD frames are very weak in this area and this is why people are seeing the interior damage and wall fasteners failing. They also fail because the wood that fills the aluminum tubing within the walls is cheap pine or worse. The OEMs don't drill pilot holes before installing the lags which causes the wood to split so it will never hold a fastener.
You dropped the ball on this one. None of the frame, failures or flex are happening in the length of the neck of the frame. It’s happening at the corners and along the welds
they’re doing a stitch weld
and they’re not using thick enough gussets in the critical areas and they should be fully welding around on all gusset and corners you did not once get up close with your camera to show any welded areas I thought you were going to do a better job than this
I would just beef up the whole frame. Just increase the total weight a few hundred pounds . It would be worth it to me. I had a 12 foot ramp door trailer with a week frame. Sheet metal distorted and frame broke and I never overloaded it . Better to build a heavier frame even if it adds weight compared to all the failures.
This is building lighter and cheaper….every one wants 6.5 foot headspace above the fifth wheel.
One hole in the center of the beam is not enough for attaching the wall, two bolts should be the absolute minimum, three would be the correct number. The wall will not provide enough support if the chassis is too weak.
You can sugar coat it all you want , but the coach doesn't support the frame . Lippert could build a better quality product, but its to coastly
what about the RVS that do not have the walls detaching from the frame that answer is BS they have a problem so fix.
There should be a way to attach the 2 sections of the frame to have stronger attachment points so the whole thing won't be as dependent on the walls and roof without impacting other design elements.
I think to some degree there will always be dependency on both parts working in unison. But I do agree at the attachment process should be vastly improved
Cheap materials, suspect engineering, poor suspensions, poor performance. Frame flex failure points are symptoms. The fix is to remedy each on its own. Build better smarter.
That was like watching msnbc reporter ask Joe Biden questions.
That’s amazing. Listen to all that woke analyzing BS. It’s a shame.
If I'm listening correctly... by claiming both trailer frame AND superstructure need to be permanently attached in order for the Rig to work properly... this allows one or the other to point the finger at the other. So, if that's what's happening my two questions are these....
1st. WHY would anyone join responsibility with another company?
And 2nd being that doesn't make ANY sense to me, why not just build the frame to with stand frame FAILURE in the event the coach builder fails to properly attach their box to your frame? In short, how much more would it cost to make the frame BETTER to with stand the problem $1500, 2500, 3,000???
I'm thinking most people would pay the difference OR go with a frame builder who is honestly willing to stand behind their product regardless of the box builder does.
Here's another idea... would Lippert be willing to give us owners the data that tells the box builder what THEIR responsibility is so when our rigs are opened up to view the damage we can point to where the box builder failed to keep up with what was/is expected by Lippert?
This reminds me of Ford and their Pinto gas tank problem. As I recall the expense to fix... AVOID gas tanks exploding was about $15 at the time of manufacturing. Ford was in it to squeeze every dollar of costs out of it to maximize profits... this seems to be EXACTLY what the RV industry is doing.... $100,000 rig and we are talking about 1-3% increase to build a bulletproof frame???? COME ON, MAN...... (Bad joke in that somewhere)
Question... Does anyone of these "engineers" spec a grade 5, or grade 8 "lag bolt" or just will just any old bolt work to join the walls to the frame???? He said She said BS at best!
I agree with many of you points.
You don't think Ford, Boeing, Toyota buy major components? The difference is they are engineered and managed effectively.
Notice JD is saying more than the engineer. Okay that’s fine. At least this video tells you where the weak spots are and if the manufacturer doesn’t fix as they should, at least you can take some preventive action before it gets too bad. I’d like to see a video on how to proactively remediate this substandard design. I’ve seen videos where they use cheap wood to drive screws in to connect the wall vs. metal or better wood. Also maybe we could strengthen the frame more to be able to endure the substandard work of the manufacturers not properly securing the upper frame attachments. I think JD has to walk a fine line in these conversations, but happy he is doing them as we are getting better information.
Agreed. JD should have let the engineer explain, and if answer not complete...ask again. I was somewhat agitated .
This video was shot AFTER the interview when it was me and engineer walking around. When he pointed out specifics to where the issue was happening and why, I got excited to capture it.. hind sight would have made me as more questions. My bad
No concerns. It was just an observation. Your analysis and description is very easy to follow and understand. He was good. You are just better in your analysis.
Has to be on the take somehow…
@@goneawol7498 I am very appreciative that he was able to get these made. Very helpful and we should all be supporting him. My guess he knew he would get some negative comments as it goes with the territory. I wish GD would offer to do the same. Also, I'm in contact with Lippert and they are being very helpful.
I didn't get the answer I was looking for but did notice something alarming in the chassis (the foundation) that did get my attention. To build a strong long lasting house, you need a good built foundation but in the video I'm looking at the chassis frame welds and they are not solid, just a spot weld here, and there, and there but not welded all the way through to make two pieces one solid piece. So I'm going to hypothesize and say that due to weak weld joints, there is frame-flexing going on as the RV is pulled down the road, and this excessive flexing is causing the RV body superstructure to move in relation and come loose, and in places separate from the chassis. I don't see a strong adhesive bonding between the body superstructure and the foundation chassis. Bolts and screws can only do so much but they will never stay tight with indifferent materials in perfect marriage. RV manufacturers need to start using chemical bonding adhesives like the commercial trucking manufacturers do to create a tight impermeable bonding, virtually indestructible between two indifferent materials such as aluminum to steel or fiberglass to steel, or vinyl to steel whichever method RV manufacturers use to build these units onto the chassis foundation. This type of bonding between the body superstructure and the steel chassis frame will mitigate flexing altogether and eliminate this issue once and for all. I hope RV manufacturers see my message and take note. And lastly, I want to see Lippert Components use full welded seams when joining steel pieces together instead of partial welds as I saw in this video.
Exactly...
Just like building a McDonald's Big Mac - Lippert engineers a product based on the absolute minimum requirements.
Riddle me this - if Lippert management gave their engineers an extra $250.00 dollars per frame to work with what would their engineering team come up with?
Lippert engineers are given an absolute price point to meet and they reduce every single facet of frame construction to meet that price point.
@@dmalley1597-- Sad but no doubt true. :(
According to Lipert it’s the drywall that holds up the house, not the foundation or framing. Or maybe it’s the wallpaper?
Yes, yes, yes!
Come on Lippert walk us through your welding n convince us you're doing it right! 🍻
I understand. Most of the people commenting understand. What the common theme is people are trying to understand why after decades of advanced technology and processes were still having problems. I feel that it has come down to price and profit
So your just a mouthpiece for the rv industry. Full of BS.
I call BS at 5:28. The side walls I agree will fail if the bolts come loose. The problem I have been seeing is the frame is moving at pin box and frames coming apart lower and higher. This is lippert turning blind eye to their own lack luster quality
To all the critics this on this video series, tell me you didn't learn something new about this issue...a better understanding what is happening. IMO, JD is the first to attempt to get answers from the involved manufacturers that truly understand the design. Good job in providing answers to questions that many of us have but do not get the opportunity to speak with other than customer service representatives. That said, JD please continue pursuing the best information possible with the major RV manufacturers.
They had the questions before hand, all soft questions, they knew it was coming and had time to have answers.
@@Rick-x8hI'm not saying you're wrong. But understanding that getting an audience with VPs at ANY major company regarding a topic as touchy as this one would be difficult but more likely impossible for a TH-camr...I wanted to at least ask some good questions that I knew they would answer.
They explain what happens but not how the frame can be made stronger. That needs to be discussed.
@@BigTruckBigRV VP is just a title. They aren't anyone special. That lady looked like she didn't even want to be there. Her answers were not even answers.
I learned manufactures are using influencers to propagate their blame shifting theory (say it enough it’s true) to blame the end user ahead of the coming litigation. It’s a liability strategy.
Really please that Lippert do not make trailers for 18 wheeler's
JD, let them talk.
I can't watch this all the way through. It is so full of absolute BS.
Total BS. Been in industrial concrete construction for 35 years mainly Machine foundations costing multi millions,for the metal forging manufacturing, and aerospace manufacturing. 200’ long gantries with multiple 5 axis mills large drop forges, presses etc.
They won’t back their machines without providing and approving
Requirements for power and foundations
The engineers for the foundations must work with the machine manufacturers to get weights, torque, harmonics, and stiffness required. If that’s not the business model, then it’s flawed.😊
Great comment. Perhaps the next few videos will help answer some of your questions.
Dude, let the engineer talk. 3/4 of this video is listening to you ramble on. 😡
My BS meter is peged. I'm no engineer but I have worked I manufacturing for 40 years. If you look at what the side walls are made of then tell me Frames fail because of the side wall. No way bud!!!!!
th-cam.com/video/rjiKtybA-xg/w-d-xo.htmlsi=eWtKSdLc_Ez7-wGM
th-cam.com/video/KmdnyYX-dOA/w-d-xo.htmlsi=jOKttNjhZWqQmmbn
They didn’t address welds breaking all over the frame ?
So after watching all three videos I've concluded that LCI threw their customer under the bus. They threw the end user under the bus. You've lost credibility. Why not go to Grand Design and try to balance things out. If I had one of these trailers I'd install a cushioned hitch and replace the pin with one that has a minimum reach. That should provide some protection to the hitch, Cushioned pins lack sufficient air volume to be useful. As it stands the owner is going to loose big. on resale.
I plan on going to RV manufacturers and even consumers. As a matter of fact, I reached out to several RVers who claim to be experiencing the issue. I did this a week before traveling to Indiana so I would have context from owners. None of them replied to me.