Just a quick comment to mention how happy I am that people have enjoyed these videos! I know there's a long wait in between them, but all the likes and comments are really appreciated in the meanwhile. Thanks to everyone who's watched them, and now onto new horizons!
I am eager to see where you go next. If you'll stay with Joss shows and try Dollhuse/Firefly, in the genre and try something like Evil Dead/XFiles, Something with a female lead like Xena, or both for WEdnesday. Maybe stick with the network and do 7th Heaven/Smallville. If you pick something else critically acclaimed like Twin Peaks. Or if you just pick something you personally enjoy (insert option here).
Thank YOU for doing these and giving us some new perspectives that I never realized. I would love for you to do ep analysis on either Misfits (2009) or Being Human (UK).
I think technically Harmony's first appearance was actually in S1 Ep2, which means that Angel edges her out by one episode. But yes, she was a long established character, despite only appearing in a handful of episodes in her time on both shows before Angel S5.
@@episodicanalysis Harmony was in the pilot according to the credits. I don't have the time to check the actual episode right now. I feel she had earned her main character credits in the end. Though Angel had a deleted scene in the pilot. So I guess they have the same length since the episode never actually aired..
@@kyleellis1825 Oh, you're talking about the original unaired pilot from '96? I didn't even think about that, but I do agree that McNab was definitely dedicated enough to the show to earn her credit. It's just disappointing that the writers couldn't think of an actual character arc to give her that paid off for the finale.
@@episodicanalysis Yeah, I meant the unaired pilot. Sorry I wasn't clear. Though as I said, David also filmed scenes for it, so he's tied with Mcnabb. I kind of wish Angel gave Harmony the Shanshu, since he thought both him and Spike would die against the Circle. So that way at least someone got the reward.
@@kyleellis1825 Harmony with a soul??? The Third Heir of Shanshu?!?! I would watch the heck out of that spinoff's spinoff!!! 😂 Illyria and Andrew could be her sidekicks. Maybe bring the DECENT version of Connor in too.
Season 5 of Angel or more specifically the second half of the season is the best television I’ve ever watched. Probably watched the whole season 5 times now. The writing is superb and the acting. A lot of ppl don’t like the ending but I love it. Like they’re still out there fighting
Really enjoying this video. For a long time I felt this season deserved special coverage and was disheartened not to find any. So I made my own. It's spread across two podcasts 'Angel: In the Belly of the Beast' and 'Angel: Not Fade Away'. It's almost as long as this and I'd love your feedback. I'm really glad you went for the long-form video essay and am enjoying your thoughts and opinions and you've put so much work into the footage. This vid's gonna keep me warm on a few winter days. Well done sir.
This was an absolutely series analysis to listen to. I only watched a few eps of Buffy but damn dude you've sold me on this one. The Passion you put into these videos the sheer amount of ambition it took to ep by ep break down two series like this was incredible and I salute you for selling me on watching both series soon. Thank you.
Woohoo!! We made it! Thank you for your massive amounts of dedication to covering this show and the parent show - it's been fun. I particularly can't wait to hear your thoughts on that finale (commenting before I've watched). Looking forward to what's up next!!
This was fantastic! I only finished the show for the first time recently, and I wasn't thrilled with the finale. I thought the direction of the series where no-one was safe brought such a forward momentum that I couldn't stop watching. I have now softened to the finale learning that the show was unceremoniously cancelled, and recognise how big of an achievement it actually was - I was just blinded from upset at the abruptness of the cliffhanger before. Yep, having seen your video, this was great. Thank you for including all the behind the scenes tidbits, it has given me a lot of confidence in your criticisms and has perfectly showcased your respect and passion for the shows when tackling them. But I wholy agree, looking back, that a show that remains with you and makes you wonder what happens next is far more valuable in the long run to the viewer than something that provides undeniable certainty and conclusion.
@@ladylikelayla Glad you enjoyed the video, and your supportive comments are always great! I agree with cliffhanger endings generally being disappointing, and it really depends how you look at Angel's final scene which determines whether or not it is a cliffhanger. I think I was probably disappointed by Angel's ending at first too, but it's through discussions and creating these videos that I ended up having massive respect for what they did with the last half-season and how they brought it to a satisfying conclusion without echoing any of the same points Buffy made with its finale just a season earlier.
@@episodicanalysis You're so deserving of the supportive comments and hopefully you'll get some more when others are lucky enough to find you as I was. I'm happy to say it was through watching these videos that I have ended up having massive respect for what they did too, so this is the effect your work has had! Two little things I just wanted to mention: I feel genuinely awful for Drogan. I desperately wish we had just one line from Angel afterwards saying that Drogan knew Angel's plan because he could also detect when people were lying as well, and sacrificed himself to further Angel's cover. Instead I ended up finding Angel the character slightly difficult to watch from then on, even though he was backed into a corner with the situation. I shouldn't be so upset about it, the whole season was visceral and unforgiving but... idk. Oh god and also, I don't know if you've seen Torchwood, but the doctor Gunn goes to played by Marc Vann, in Torchwood: Miracle Day portrays genuinely the most vile, disgusting person ever put to screen. And in a series where a child murderer is one of the main characters, that says a lot about his talent as a performer. When I saw him here, if all the clues that he was shady weren't enough anyway, I just knew he was gonna be a terrible person hahaha
@@ladylikelayla Yeah, Drogyn's death is kinda something Angel was forced to do without hesitating or else the plan wouldn't have worked. I assume he would've thought Drogyn would've accepted his death if it was necessary for taking down the Black Thorn. Angel does like doing some fucked up stuff anyway, with the whole Dark Angel thing in S2, although that was regarding far more evil characters than Drogyn. Also, I've never seen Torchwood, but I've heard good things. Unfortunately for Marc Vann, he's got a very evil face, so I think Sparrow being secretly evil wasn't much of a surprise due to his convincing demeanour.
Accidentally stumbled upon your vids the other day. Just finished binging all the Buffy and Angel analyses vids, and damn, it's a crime you don't have more subscribers. Fantastic work!
I have been soo looking forward to this I have loved all of your reviews. Thank you for all the hard work and I can’t wait to see what your going to do next
Thank you so much for the time, effort, and love you have put into this project. If I could, I would like to ask that you do Bones. There are very few out there, and the ones that exist are full of errors, get way off track, and a lot of silliness. Again, thank you for sharing your considerable talent.
saw this ONCE as it aired on tv, so i remember very little. very much like season 7 of buffy. actually, EXACTLY like buffy season 7. i remember specific moments but not broad elements such as who is the big bad. i dont even know if conner comes back. but i remember the harmony and spike joining, gunn going smart, fred becoming a god, and that puppet episode. thats about it
What the hell bro… been obsessed with your buffy & angel analyses this past week, only to find that you have only 611 subscribers?!? The quality of your channel is so past that. I have no doubt you’ll find success. Keep it up.
Shanshu is almost like a perfect red herring. This unattainable dream goal that will never get closer... day after day Angel keeps fighting no matter what. So the sudden rejection of the prophecy is, in a way, the best arc they could have given Angel. His shanshu prophecy is in coming to the realization that his life is infinite and endless. If he keeps living forever then he may as well fight the good fight forever. Shanshu might even represent death - when Angel finally dusts his mission is complete and he can rest peacefully. Think about it... Angelus murdered probably thousands of innocent people in the most heinous ways. He simply will NEVER be forgiven. His torment is like that of Prometheus: torturous immortality. It's just that Angel realizes that if nothing matters then all that matters is how he can use his "very unique" role in the Apocalypse to fight the good fight, forever. Which imo perfectly highlights the main themes of the show and concludes both his character arc and the show in a super satisfying way. Plus, as you mentioned, the writers just fucking GO FOR IT while Buffy's ending is just so safe and easygoing that you almost check out before the episode concludes.
Good point, the chances they take with Angel, compared to Buffy, is kinda why I like it more, especially when looking at both of their final seasons. They tried a lot more weird things with Angel, some of which work and some of which really don’t, but the final arc is an example of every chance they take paying off.
I've been waiting for this, thank you *so* much! The amount of work you've put into the whole series is incredible!! This show is special to me so I really appreciate the serious time and effort you have put in to your analysis 🙂
Wow finally! You covered two of the greatest shows of all time! If you're looking for sth new to work on why not analyse Charmed, Xena, La Femme Nikita or the new Interview with the Vampire Series?
All of us appreciate the time, dedication, and quality you have consitstantly given us for this series. I will of course have several more comments on specific topics as I watch the video. One thing I have been curious about, do you think Lilah was the originally planned host for Illyria? Maybe even as some kind of bride for one of the Wolf Ram or HArt?
Ooh I’ve never thought about that. Planned by the writers or by Knox? Because it would entirely depend on how well they could have brought Lilah back into the show. Obviously they had the way to do it, but I’ve heard behind-the-scenes rumours that Stephanie Romanov was let go from the show because she wanted a higher salary. It would have been interesting to see, but maybe even Eve being Illyria might have made her existence on the show worth more xD
@@episodicanalysis Planned by Knox. Illyria seemed like a S5 changeup the writers hadn't considered before. So before the Angil Invesitigatins takeover/Beast killing all the lawyers. I feel like Lilah/Illyria could have had so much potential fr her trying t crrupt the team and them trying t sway her away from evil.
@@kyleellis1825 I feel like Illyria was something that the writers wanted to explore further before the show was cancelled so they had to cram her entire character into seven episodes (which we know the Angel writers can do effectively like with Doyle in S1). If Lilah returned and she became Illyria, and Romanov could pull off as convincing of a performance as Acker could, I would have loved to see it! Thanks for all the kind words btw, really appreciate it!
@@episodicanalysis I agree. Illyria was not something they had thought of before S5. They (Calls himself king but seems to identify as female by the time of the comics. So I'm just staying gender neutral)where probably meant to be the entire S6 arc which means the writers always wanted it to be Fred as the host. I don't think Lilah would have been the host unless S4 ended differently. But I would like to see an alternate universe version of the show where Lilah was never decapitated by Jasmine and acted as the Eve when AI took over.
@@episodicanalysis And thank you for giving s many hours of excellent videos. I pretty much leave the playlist on repeat when I'm writing my Buffy fanfic.
I remember a few days after Hole In The World went out Whedon published a letter to Fred fans via WB and Whedonesque. He talked about ramping up the plot through Fred as she was the only character who united all the others. This thoughts crystallised in the call to action scene at @1:00:26 and when they each walk in their respective directions only Gunn is less than choreographed.
"You gotta do what you can to protect your family. I learned that from my father. And my mother too." Connor to Angel and Cordelia The show over but imagination lives on to create fanfiction. Connor and Spike are uncle and nephew. Spike is Connor's favorite surrogate uncle.
Put this off for a while now dreading the end to this series I binged 90% of in a week or 2 don’t really have anything to say about this one as the season doesn’t having any glaring faults but there are a few things I have to say 1. Well fucking done loved this series and you’ve successfully drawn me into ur channel and I’ll probably watch it even if I’m not completely into the topic because of u 2. I completely agree with u Wes being my favorite character in the whole of the series rivaled only by Spike probably because of the nostalgia I get just seeing him on screen remembering watching Buffy with my parents when I was a child up until rewatching everything a year or so ago Spike was undoubtedly my favorite character until Wesley who is beautifully written even going back to season three of Buffy being able to go rewatch and see the seeds of the Wes we all love and 3. This is my favorite season of the best two shows I know of nostalgia or not Idgaf these shows and the stories they encapsulate are wonderful (for the most part) and even in seasons that are a mess because it’s still Buffy and angel I still enjoy them they’re my favorite works of fiction and I don’t know if anything can change that because of the memories I have of watching Buffy when I was a child and the ones I created maybe a year or so back and the ones I’ve been creating over the course of months rewatching them again with my mom I love these shows and I love how they’ve played a roles in my life and you did a grand fuckin job of showing them off and sharing ur thoughts in your own way beautifully done
I find The Girl in Question is kind of a funny episode in that you could skip it entirely and it changes nothing. Other than that Fred is already turned to Illyria, you could also put that episode in any slot in the season and it changes nothing. It has some funny moments and epic Roman tits and shows Angel and Spike being all lovesick. I didn't know that it was supposed to be Dawn instead of Andrew returning for another episode. This explains his dialogue and sorts out why his character sort of reverted back to before when he liberated the rogue slayer from Angel's gang.
Love how Gunn kills someone for Fred, and it's unforgivable even though it was for her, but Wes does it, and it's all good. I know it's a robot, but he didn't know that.
I dont think Lawson was empty as a vampire because he was partially ensouled but because a vampire is a dark reflection of a human and Lawson as a human was defined by duty aka. conscience and function of the soul. He couldnt derive satisfaction without a soul. The dog being decpitated isn't the best scene in Smile Time it's puppet Angel vamping out. I actually own a puppet Spike my daughter took into school at Halloween once.
I personally think Angel is a better show. But it is still remembered as the spin off. Most people don't even know Xena started on Hercules. So by that metric, you win. But I would toss Fraiser into the mix. It stands apart from Cheers in the same way Xena does.
Because of everything that had happened in season four (especially with Cordy's character), JW needed Spike as arguably the most popular character to regain viewers, but certain things were left unfinished and some underdeveloped character arcs left some loose ends. IMO, S5 would be a great build up to a S6 that was never filmed, as S6 would certainly offer better justification for certain plot points, like Fred's death, potentially alleviating the somewhat bitter feeling left by the series ending. However, I still think the last episode was great. What I don’t like about this season is its excessive reliance on humor in specific instances, particularly in the dynamic between Spike and Angel (as well as most elements involving Harmony whose character doesn't provide anything particular). The strength of their relationship seems more pronounced when there is tension, exemplified by the fantastic scene and dialogue at the conclusion of "Damage," which stands out as one of the finest scenes in the Buffyverse. In that sense, episodes like "Smile Time" and "Girl in Question" don't resonate well with me.
With Wesley's mistranslation in S1 ad hw the prophecy was Live not Die, I wonder if S5 was supposed to end with a cliffhanger about how Vampire is like Buffalo. It's both plural and singular.
I know Whedon likes to mess with fans about this too, because he casually mentions Spike being the Shanshu vampire in interviews xD Would totally watch a spin-off of Angel and Spike both human and living together like The Golden Girls!
@@episodicanalysis So much of the franchise is about personal choice. I feel it's not so much a singular prophecy but a check list of criteria fr a vampire t turn human. Step 1: Get a soul Step 2: Stop an Apocalypse Step 3: Turn human. Angel and his team stop the Scourge from wiping out LA (and really any city on the coast) with the light bomb. That's definitly an apocalypse stopped. Next episode the Mohra demon vision/attack means the powers want Angel human. He fulfilled his role in Episode 7 and rejected the reward in E8. ... Angel would have to get a gym membership and be on constant diets (or gain 50 pounds). He loved food when he was human.
@@kyleellis1825 I never even thought about that before, Angel had stopped apocalypses and was given humanity! Although, the Scourge episode where Doyle dies was actually the episode following that one, but the point still stands, he did help stop apocalypses before that.
@@episodicanalysis You are correct. Got the order mixed up. He helped stop a few. Since I'm not sure if it's actually the same soul that Angel had before S2 of Buffy, I'm only counting his S2 finale, S3 and Angel S1 feats. Signalled Buffy to stab him with his eyes, Sisterhod of Jhe, the Mayor. He earned and rejected his reward. The Mohra only attacked him when Buffy came to town, likely as the Powers way of saying "Hey, both of you can go be happy. Faith can be the champion and get redemption with Doyle."
they did cancel angel after season 4. the average season 5 ratings were higher than the average season 4 ratings but it still wasn’t enough to save the show.
I always felt that illyria was cut and paste after Carpenter was unavailable. Having cordelia become jasmine and angel doing Wesley's conflicted morality works.
Wesley was still on his feet when Illyria arrived. Wesley likely had time to stumble over and stab Cyrus Vail before he died. Cyrus didn't attack until Wesley died and I don't think it was because he was giving them a moment. Cyrus was rocked by that fireball and needed a chance to recover.
With S5 being built upon a reality/memry altering deal with WR+H, I kind of think they should have done a few more changes. Make it so Lindsey had suddenly been a member on the team since S2 kind of thing and he never left town(or Eve was suddenly remembered as a team member by everyone but Angel). Maybe have it so Faith joined up with Angel after Sunnydale's finale so she culd get her criminal past dealt with.
Lots of fans wonder about the Roger robot. I personally figured we use the shows evidence of who has experience working on human shaped robots. Willow probably made Roger to see if they could get Wesley away frm the Lawyers so he could tell them what was really going on with Angel.
We had 5 potential choices for wh could have used the Amulet. Buffy and Faith both probably could have done it, the whole Slayer Spirit thing. Angel and Spike could have done it. But we also could have had Groo do it, since he's a halfdemon with a soul. Really any ption has the Lawyers beat the First and get control over one champion for good.
Somthing bothers me evertime i think about the illyria thing...couldn't they have used a spell to teleport fred to the old well so that no one would get infected? Am i misunderstanding how thats works because they way it's worded makes it seem like the distance was the problem?
Ya know ... i always wondered how Angel managed to open the hatch on the sub without killing everyone on board You know ..considering they are designed to be sealed shut by the water pressure 😂 (Yeah he is probably strong enough to open it but i dont think it would be ....advisable, ...if you know what i mean 😂)
Well Spikes returned was planned by the parters ! Because when Fred failed to save Spike the parters stepped in and saved Spike by making him whole again they could’ve just let him parish and Died. But They Didn’t ! Also if I’m not mistaken they were the 1’s who sent spike’s necklace to the office in the first place in hopes that they can Save Him ! Now why they did this idk ! Maybe they said to themselves. We can either turn both vampires with a soul to our side or if that fails then we’re kill them both to eliminate any threats that can stand against us. Also how useful would it be to have 2 powerful Vampires with a soul in our possession rather dead or Alive ! At least that’s how I’ve always looked at It 🤷🏾 !
As much as I l've James Marsters, he seems to have nostalgia glasses from his time on the show. Maybe that's not the right term. Its more that the actor seems to have forgotten Spike was a bad guy until S7. I don't trust his pinion on plot/character plans.
Yeah, he also has the power of hindsight now too. Like when I watch Buffy, I'm aware that Spike ends up being a good guy by the end, and I think because of his attachment to the character, he likes to think Spike always had that good guy in him from his first appearance (which isn't true, Spike was supposed to be killed off by Angelus).
@@episodicanalysis Exactly. I've seen a lot of interviews with him and he really seems to have forgotten he was playing a monster in S6 of Buffy/Spike had become so much of his own personality he took it personally. As you say, he was supposed to be killed off midway through S2 of Buffy. SPike was conditioned with shock therapy and rewards of Buffy affection. You can train pretty much any behaviours that way.
Spike was only a bad guy in season 2 & 1 episode of season 3. After that he was always fighting alongside the good guys as an ally. He had this "I'm still evil, I'm not a good vampire, I am totally not a repeat of Angel"-thing going on. But in terms of the story, he was part of the gang. He was not "a bad guy" in terms of story structure. (maybe a bit in season 4, but you get my point.) He was living in Xander's or Giles houses, he was helping fight the bad guys, the story was not treating him like a bad guy.
One thing about the Number 5 character, didn't the Beast kill everyone at W and H last season. Lilah even says he got people out sick that day. If Number 5 was hired years earlier why wasn't he killed? And before you think he was transferred from a different W and H office, his brothers were buried here and the demon who killed them rose from here so it seems like he always lived in Los Angeles.
Might’ve visited Mexico or somewhere like that out of California and you know jasmine probably wouldn’t want him just going out on a wild goose chase plus Lilah got away and Lindsey was probably still signed as working for Wolfram and Hart and he lived
Harmony added a fun energy to the show, it would have been more depressing without her there to make jokes. And I am sure she'd have had a redemption arc in season 6. Having said that, I find it refreshing that she had no redemption arc. Redemption arcs have been done to death. It's a nice change of pac for her to not be redeemed after all.
5:51 I’m not sure that’s a fair assessment of Eve OR the actress. The actress does a wonderful job. As for eve being no replacement I find that’s the point. They were NEVER going to trust someone else afterlilah and she plays the part well, her professional attitude breaking apart as Lindsey gets his hands on her.
If it is true that the Netwerk was not planning on canceling Angel after season four. Why would they cancel Angel after season five started when Josh Weeden asked for a guarantee of a season six?
Joss Whedon lacks social skills, apparently. He can across as marking a power play and it rankled the executives egos and they wet like "screw this guy."" that is the internet rumor anyways. 😊
this was a great series. I loved your videos. But the greatest Spin-off AND the greatest character arc are both in Better Call Saul. As good as this show was, that one was better.
I severely disliked Conner as well probably the most useless character in the show I mean baby Conner was fine but once he returns from cortoth well boo he sincerely sucks on a cellular lever I really hate him
gotta admit i never understood the love for "Smile Time". I think it's the worst episode of the entire series. i have an alternate version in my head of how i'd write the episode that I think could have made it a lot better.
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Just a quick comment to mention how happy I am that people have enjoyed these videos! I know there's a long wait in between them, but all the likes and comments are really appreciated in the meanwhile. Thanks to everyone who's watched them, and now onto new horizons!
I am eager to see where you go next. If you'll stay with Joss shows and try Dollhuse/Firefly, in the genre and try something like Evil Dead/XFiles, Something with a female lead like Xena, or both for WEdnesday. Maybe stick with the network and do 7th Heaven/Smallville. If you pick something else critically acclaimed like Twin Peaks. Or if you just pick something you personally enjoy (insert option here).
Thank YOU for doing these and giving us some new perspectives that I never realized. I would love for you to do ep analysis on either Misfits (2009) or Being Human (UK).
Mercedes went from the Buffy pilot to the Angel finale. Longest onscreen arc in Buffyverse.
I think technically Harmony's first appearance was actually in S1 Ep2, which means that Angel edges her out by one episode. But yes, she was a long established character, despite only appearing in a handful of episodes in her time on both shows before Angel S5.
@@episodicanalysis Harmony was in the pilot according to the credits. I don't have the time to check the actual episode right now.
I feel she had earned her main character credits in the end.
Though Angel had a deleted scene in the pilot. So I guess they have the same length since the episode never actually aired..
@@kyleellis1825 Oh, you're talking about the original unaired pilot from '96? I didn't even think about that, but I do agree that McNab was definitely dedicated enough to the show to earn her credit. It's just disappointing that the writers couldn't think of an actual character arc to give her that paid off for the finale.
@@episodicanalysis Yeah, I meant the unaired pilot. Sorry I wasn't clear. Though as I said, David also filmed scenes for it, so he's tied with Mcnabb.
I kind of wish Angel gave Harmony the Shanshu, since he thought both him and Spike would die against the Circle. So that way at least someone got the reward.
@@kyleellis1825 Harmony with a soul??? The Third Heir of Shanshu?!?!
I would watch the heck out of that spinoff's spinoff!!! 😂
Illyria and Andrew could be her sidekicks. Maybe bring the DECENT version of Connor in too.
The final scene between Wesley and "Fred" at the end broke my heart. It was some brilliant acting on Amy Ackers part.
Season 5 of Angel or more specifically the second half of the season is the best television I’ve ever watched. Probably watched the whole season 5 times now. The writing is superb and the acting. A lot of ppl don’t like the ending but I love it. Like they’re still out there fighting
Really enjoying this video. For a long time I felt this season deserved special coverage and was disheartened not to find any. So I made my own. It's spread across two podcasts 'Angel: In the Belly of the Beast' and 'Angel: Not Fade Away'. It's almost as long as this and I'd love your feedback. I'm really glad you went for the long-form video essay and am enjoying your thoughts and opinions and you've put so much work into the footage. This vid's gonna keep me warm on a few winter days. Well done sir.
This was an absolutely series analysis to listen to.
I only watched a few eps of Buffy but damn dude you've sold me on this one.
The Passion you put into these videos the sheer amount of ambition it took to ep by ep break down two series like this was incredible and I salute you for selling me on watching both series soon.
Thank you.
Woohoo!! We made it! Thank you for your massive amounts of dedication to covering this show and the parent show - it's been fun. I particularly can't wait to hear your thoughts on that finale (commenting before I've watched). Looking forward to what's up next!!
This was fantastic! I only finished the show for the first time recently, and I wasn't thrilled with the finale. I thought the direction of the series where no-one was safe brought such a forward momentum that I couldn't stop watching. I have now softened to the finale learning that the show was unceremoniously cancelled, and recognise how big of an achievement it actually was - I was just blinded from upset at the abruptness of the cliffhanger before.
Yep, having seen your video, this was great. Thank you for including all the behind the scenes tidbits, it has given me a lot of confidence in your criticisms and has perfectly showcased your respect and passion for the shows when tackling them. But I wholy agree, looking back, that a show that remains with you and makes you wonder what happens next is far more valuable in the long run to the viewer than something that provides undeniable certainty and conclusion.
@@ladylikelayla Glad you enjoyed the video, and your supportive comments are always great! I agree with cliffhanger endings generally being disappointing, and it really depends how you look at Angel's final scene which determines whether or not it is a cliffhanger. I think I was probably disappointed by Angel's ending at first too, but it's through discussions and creating these videos that I ended up having massive respect for what they did with the last half-season and how they brought it to a satisfying conclusion without echoing any of the same points Buffy made with its finale just a season earlier.
@@episodicanalysis You're so deserving of the supportive comments and hopefully you'll get some more when others are lucky enough to find you as I was. I'm happy to say it was through watching these videos that I have ended up having massive respect for what they did too, so this is the effect your work has had!
Two little things I just wanted to mention:
I feel genuinely awful for Drogan. I desperately wish we had just one line from Angel afterwards saying that Drogan knew Angel's plan because he could also detect when people were lying as well, and sacrificed himself to further Angel's cover. Instead I ended up finding Angel the character slightly difficult to watch from then on, even though he was backed into a corner with the situation. I shouldn't be so upset about it, the whole season was visceral and unforgiving but... idk.
Oh god and also, I don't know if you've seen Torchwood, but the doctor Gunn goes to played by Marc Vann, in Torchwood: Miracle Day portrays genuinely the most vile, disgusting person ever put to screen. And in a series where a child murderer is one of the main characters, that says a lot about his talent as a performer. When I saw him here, if all the clues that he was shady weren't enough anyway, I just knew he was gonna be a terrible person hahaha
@@ladylikelayla Yeah, Drogyn's death is kinda something Angel was forced to do without hesitating or else the plan wouldn't have worked. I assume he would've thought Drogyn would've accepted his death if it was necessary for taking down the Black Thorn. Angel does like doing some fucked up stuff anyway, with the whole Dark Angel thing in S2, although that was regarding far more evil characters than Drogyn.
Also, I've never seen Torchwood, but I've heard good things. Unfortunately for Marc Vann, he's got a very evil face, so I think Sparrow being secretly evil wasn't much of a surprise due to his convincing demeanour.
Hi, fellow Scottish person here. I've just spent the last few days watching all the videos on Buffy and angel and loved it.
Accidentally stumbled upon your vids the other day. Just finished binging all the Buffy and Angel analyses vids, and damn, it's a crime you don't have more subscribers. Fantastic work!
Andrews reaction to seeing spike again lol
Would love an adult animated movie for angel season 6 voiced by the original actors
I have been soo looking forward to this I have loved all of your reviews. Thank you for all the hard work and I can’t wait to see what your going to do next
Thank you so much for the time, effort, and love you have put into this project. If I could, I would like to ask that you do Bones. There are very few out there, and the ones that exist are full of errors, get way off track, and a lot of silliness. Again, thank you for sharing your considerable talent.
saw this ONCE as it aired on tv, so i remember very little. very much like season 7 of buffy. actually, EXACTLY like buffy season 7. i remember specific moments but not broad elements such as who is the big bad. i dont even know if conner comes back. but i remember the harmony and spike joining, gunn going smart, fred becoming a god, and that puppet episode. thats about it
What the hell bro… been obsessed with your buffy & angel analyses this past week, only to find that you have only 611 subscribers?!? The quality of your channel is so past that. I have no doubt you’ll find success. Keep it up.
I can not WAIT for you to upload more!!! Just found your channel and binge watched everything lol
Shanshu is almost like a perfect red herring. This unattainable dream goal that will never get closer... day after day Angel keeps fighting no matter what. So the sudden rejection of the prophecy is, in a way, the best arc they could have given Angel. His shanshu prophecy is in coming to the realization that his life is infinite and endless. If he keeps living forever then he may as well fight the good fight forever. Shanshu might even represent death - when Angel finally dusts his mission is complete and he can rest peacefully.
Think about it... Angelus murdered probably thousands of innocent people in the most heinous ways. He simply will NEVER be forgiven. His torment is like that of Prometheus: torturous immortality. It's just that Angel realizes that if nothing matters then all that matters is how he can use his "very unique" role in the Apocalypse to fight the good fight, forever. Which imo perfectly highlights the main themes of the show and concludes both his character arc and the show in a super satisfying way. Plus, as you mentioned, the writers just fucking GO FOR IT while Buffy's ending is just so safe and easygoing that you almost check out before the episode concludes.
Good point, the chances they take with Angel, compared to Buffy, is kinda why I like it more, especially when looking at both of their final seasons. They tried a lot more weird things with Angel, some of which work and some of which really don’t, but the final arc is an example of every chance they take paying off.
I agree with you 100% about Wesley I've said all that stuff you said about him many times.
Are you planning to keep going with the comics? I haven't read them and they don't have the best reputation. But maybe you are up for it
angel: after the fall is decent actually. I don't consider it canon but it's a fun read.
I love your videos! Glad we finally got to the finale. I hope you do the comics one day cause they're a laugh. I've read them and I like them too.
Your videos are top tier. Thank you so much for your hard work.
Thanks so much for your Buffy and Angel videos, they were very interesting and entertaining.
Rip Andy aka Lorne,your so missed
I've been waiting for this, thank you *so* much! The amount of work you've put into the whole series is incredible!! This show is special to me so I really appreciate the serious time and effort you have put in to your analysis 🙂
Wow finally! You covered two of the greatest shows of all time!
If you're looking for sth new to work on why not analyse Charmed, Xena, La Femme Nikita or the new Interview with the Vampire Series?
The Submarine Episode !! Is actually my favorite episode
Unbelievable video, thank you very much!
Angel / Angelus made Penn aka The Pope, Drusilla, Spike and Lawson into monsters the most.
♫ You can dream and be anybody, but self esteem is how you get it done ♫
I'm a little surprised they didn't bring Anya back just to kill her again at the end....
All of us appreciate the time, dedication, and quality you have consitstantly given us for this series. I will of course have several more comments on specific topics as I watch the video.
One thing I have been curious about, do you think Lilah was the originally planned host for Illyria? Maybe even as some kind of bride for one of the Wolf Ram or HArt?
Ooh I’ve never thought about that. Planned by the writers or by Knox? Because it would entirely depend on how well they could have brought Lilah back into the show. Obviously they had the way to do it, but I’ve heard behind-the-scenes rumours that Stephanie Romanov was let go from the show because she wanted a higher salary.
It would have been interesting to see, but maybe even Eve being Illyria might have made her existence on the show worth more xD
@@episodicanalysis Planned by Knox. Illyria seemed like a S5 changeup the writers hadn't considered before.
So before the Angil Invesitigatins takeover/Beast killing all the lawyers.
I feel like Lilah/Illyria could have had so much potential fr her trying t crrupt the team and them trying t sway her away from evil.
@@kyleellis1825 I feel like Illyria was something that the writers wanted to explore further before the show was cancelled so they had to cram her entire character into seven episodes (which we know the Angel writers can do effectively like with Doyle in S1). If Lilah returned and she became Illyria, and Romanov could pull off as convincing of a performance as Acker could, I would have loved to see it!
Thanks for all the kind words btw, really appreciate it!
@@episodicanalysis I agree. Illyria was not something they had thought of before S5. They (Calls himself king but seems to identify as female by the time of the comics. So I'm just staying gender neutral)where probably meant to be the entire S6 arc which means the writers always wanted it to be Fred as the host.
I don't think Lilah would have been the host unless S4 ended differently. But I would like to see an alternate universe version of the show where Lilah was never decapitated by Jasmine and acted as the Eve when AI took over.
@@episodicanalysis And thank you for giving s many hours of excellent videos. I pretty much leave the playlist on repeat when I'm writing my Buffy fanfic.
Buffy is Spike's true anchor.
Cordelia is Angel's true anchor.
I remember a few days after Hole In The World went out Whedon published a letter to Fred fans via WB and Whedonesque. He talked about ramping up the plot through Fred as she was the only character who united all the others. This thoughts crystallised in the call to action scene at @1:00:26 and when they each walk in their respective directions only Gunn is less than choreographed.
I don't give a damn what anyones says. Angel lived.
Great work. Thank you.
Is it just me, or does the vampire dusting effect look different in this season. They have changed it but I can't put my finger on it
I thought Spikes return was a masterstroke in season5
Love your work. Please do Dollhouse, Firefly and Serenity.
"You gotta do what you can to protect your family. I learned that from my father. And my mother too." Connor to Angel and Cordelia
The show over but imagination lives on to create fanfiction.
Connor and Spike are uncle and nephew. Spike is Connor's favorite surrogate uncle.
Put this off for a while now dreading the end to this series I binged 90% of in a week or 2 don’t really have anything to say about this one as the season doesn’t having any glaring faults but there are a few things I have to say 1. Well fucking done loved this series and you’ve successfully drawn me into ur channel and I’ll probably watch it even if I’m not completely into the topic because of u 2. I completely agree with u Wes being my favorite character in the whole of the series rivaled only by Spike probably because of the nostalgia I get just seeing him on screen remembering watching Buffy with my parents when I was a child up until rewatching everything a year or so ago Spike was undoubtedly my favorite character until Wesley who is beautifully written even going back to season three of Buffy being able to go rewatch and see the seeds of the Wes we all love and 3. This is my favorite season of the best two shows I know of nostalgia or not Idgaf these shows and the stories they encapsulate are wonderful (for the most part) and even in seasons that are a mess because it’s still Buffy and angel I still enjoy them they’re my favorite works of fiction and I don’t know if anything can change that because of the memories I have of watching Buffy when I was a child and the ones I created maybe a year or so back and the ones I’ve been creating over the course of months rewatching them again with my mom I love these shows and I love how they’ve played a roles in my life and you did a grand fuckin job of showing them off and sharing ur thoughts in your own way beautifully done
I love Fred and spikes relationship 🥰🥰🥰 it reminds me how he is towards dawn
Hated that they added spike..
I find The Girl in Question is kind of a funny episode in that you could skip it entirely and it changes nothing. Other than that Fred is already turned to Illyria, you could also put that episode in any slot in the season and it changes nothing. It has some funny moments and epic Roman tits and shows Angel and Spike being all lovesick. I didn't know that it was supposed to be Dawn instead of Andrew returning for another episode. This explains his dialogue and sorts out why his character sort of reverted back to before when he liberated the rogue slayer from Angel's gang.
Love how Gunn kills someone for Fred, and it's unforgivable even though it was for her, but Wes does it, and it's all good. I know it's a robot, but he didn't know that.
I just wanna say, cavemen are gonna win that fight
The ending was a Black Adder Goes Fourth ending.😮💨
I dont think Lawson was empty as a vampire because he was partially ensouled but because a vampire is a dark reflection of a human and Lawson as a human was defined by duty aka. conscience and function of the soul. He couldnt derive satisfaction without a soul.
The dog being decpitated isn't the best scene in Smile Time it's puppet Angel vamping out. I actually own a puppet Spike my daughter took into school at Halloween once.
They wanted Glenn Quinn to come back in S4 working forJasmine. But he was to far gone and the idea rewritten int Lindesy impersonating him.
Good break down thank you but I would argue that 'Xena: Warrior Princess' is the BEST spin-off ever, Angel is a very close 2nd.
I personally think Angel is a better show. But it is still remembered as the spin off. Most people don't even know Xena started on Hercules. So by that metric, you win. But I would toss Fraiser into the mix. It stands apart from Cheers in the same way Xena does.
rest in peace andy hallett who played lorn,your still missed
Because of everything that had happened in season four (especially with Cordy's character), JW needed Spike as arguably the most popular character to regain viewers, but certain things were left unfinished and some underdeveloped character arcs left some loose ends.
IMO, S5 would be a great build up to a S6 that was never filmed, as S6 would certainly offer better justification for certain plot points, like Fred's death, potentially alleviating the somewhat bitter feeling left by the series ending. However, I still think the last episode was great.
What I don’t like about this season is its excessive reliance on humor in specific instances, particularly in the dynamic between Spike and Angel (as well as most elements involving Harmony whose character doesn't provide anything particular). The strength of their relationship seems more pronounced when there is tension, exemplified by the fantastic scene and dialogue at the conclusion of "Damage," which stands out as one of the finest scenes in the Buffyverse.
In that sense, episodes like "Smile Time" and "Girl in Question" don't resonate well with me.
"Greatest television spinoff in the world"
Xena: Warrior Princess would like a word. 😁😁😁
(Kidding!)
With Wesley's mistranslation in S1 ad hw the prophecy was Live not Die, I wonder if S5 was supposed to end with a cliffhanger about how Vampire is like Buffalo. It's both plural and singular.
I know Whedon likes to mess with fans about this too, because he casually mentions Spike being the Shanshu vampire in interviews xD
Would totally watch a spin-off of Angel and Spike both human and living together like The Golden Girls!
@@episodicanalysis So much of the franchise is about personal choice. I feel it's not so much a singular prophecy but a check list of criteria fr a vampire t turn human.
Step 1: Get a soul
Step 2: Stop an Apocalypse
Step 3: Turn human.
Angel and his team stop the Scourge from wiping out LA (and really any city on the coast) with the light bomb. That's definitly an apocalypse stopped.
Next episode the Mohra demon vision/attack means the powers want Angel human. He fulfilled his role in Episode 7 and rejected the reward in E8.
...
Angel would have to get a gym membership and be on constant diets (or gain 50 pounds). He loved food when he was human.
@@kyleellis1825 I never even thought about that before, Angel had stopped apocalypses and was given humanity! Although, the Scourge episode where Doyle dies was actually the episode following that one, but the point still stands, he did help stop apocalypses before that.
@@episodicanalysis You are correct. Got the order mixed up.
He helped stop a few. Since I'm not sure if it's actually the same soul that Angel had before S2 of Buffy, I'm only counting his S2 finale, S3 and Angel S1 feats.
Signalled Buffy to stab him with his eyes, Sisterhod of Jhe, the Mayor. He earned and rejected his reward. The Mohra only attacked him when Buffy came to town, likely as the Powers way of saying "Hey, both of you can go be happy. Faith can be the champion and get redemption with Doyle."
Who knew Paul Heyman was a necromancer in his spare time......
My favourite episode 🥰🥰🥰
they did cancel angel after season 4. the average season 5 ratings were higher than the average season 4 ratings but it still wasn’t enough to save the show.
I always felt that illyria was cut and paste after Carpenter was unavailable.
Having cordelia become jasmine and angel doing Wesley's conflicted morality works.
Damn now that would've been interesting
Wesley was still on his feet when Illyria arrived. Wesley likely had time to stumble over and stab Cyrus Vail before he died. Cyrus didn't attack until Wesley died and I don't think it was because he was giving them a moment. Cyrus was rocked by that fireball and needed a chance to recover.
With S5 being built upon a reality/memry altering deal with WR+H, I kind of think they should have done a few more changes. Make it so Lindsey had suddenly been a member on the team since S2 kind of thing and he never left town(or Eve was suddenly remembered as a team member by everyone but Angel). Maybe have it so Faith joined up with Angel after Sunnydale's finale so she culd get her criminal past dealt with.
Lots of fans wonder about the Roger robot. I personally figured we use the shows evidence of who has experience working on human shaped robots.
Willow probably made Roger to see if they could get Wesley away frm the Lawyers so he could tell them what was really going on with Angel.
Haha, I like that idea. I feel like Giles might have been behind it too because of his dislike towards Wes
But this season also says that the Devil built a robot.......
@@clearmountain28 That works to. What I like abbout both series is how much is left to interpretation. Both of these seem equally plausible to me.
This show could have easily gone on for another two seasons if Joss hadn't been so forceful about getting it renewed early.
We had 5 potential choices for wh could have used the Amulet. Buffy and Faith both probably could have done it, the whole Slayer Spirit thing. Angel and Spike could have done it. But we also could have had Groo do it, since he's a halfdemon with a soul.
Really any ption has the Lawyers beat the First and get control over one champion for good.
What exactly are The Senior Partners
Curious if you would consider talking about the mess that is the comics haha.
I like to pretend much ado about nothing is what happens when she lies to him.
Somthing bothers me evertime i think about the illyria thing...couldn't they have used a spell to teleport fred to the old well so that no one would get infected? Am i misunderstanding how thats works because they way it's worded makes it seem like the distance was the problem?
Bervane the character in season 5 whats his real life name?
Ya know ... i always wondered how Angel managed to open the hatch on the sub without killing everyone on board
You know ..considering they are designed to be sealed shut by the water pressure 😂
(Yeah he is probably strong enough to open it but i dont think it would be ....advisable, ...if you know what i mean 😂)
Well Spikes returned was planned by the parters ! Because when Fred failed to save Spike the parters stepped in and saved Spike by making him whole again they could’ve just let him parish and Died. But They Didn’t !
Also if I’m not mistaken they were the 1’s who sent spike’s necklace to the office in the first place in hopes that they can Save Him !
Now why they did this idk ! Maybe they said to themselves. We can either turn both vampires with a soul to our side or if that fails then we’re kill them both to eliminate any threats that can stand against us. Also how useful would it be to have 2 powerful Vampires with a soul in our possession rather dead or Alive !
At least that’s how I’ve always looked at It 🤷🏾 !
As much as I l've James Marsters, he seems to have nostalgia glasses from his time on the show. Maybe that's not the right term. Its more that the actor seems to have forgotten Spike was a bad guy until S7. I don't trust his pinion on plot/character plans.
Yeah, he also has the power of hindsight now too. Like when I watch Buffy, I'm aware that Spike ends up being a good guy by the end, and I think because of his attachment to the character, he likes to think Spike always had that good guy in him from his first appearance (which isn't true, Spike was supposed to be killed off by Angelus).
@@episodicanalysis Exactly. I've seen a lot of interviews with him and he really seems to have forgotten he was playing a monster in S6 of Buffy/Spike had become so much of his own personality he took it personally.
As you say, he was supposed to be killed off midway through S2 of Buffy. SPike was conditioned with shock therapy and rewards of Buffy affection. You can train pretty much any behaviours that way.
Spike was only a bad guy in season 2 & 1 episode of season 3. After that he was always fighting alongside the good guys as an ally. He had this "I'm still evil, I'm not a good vampire, I am totally not a repeat of Angel"-thing going on. But in terms of the story, he was part of the gang. He was not "a bad guy" in terms of story structure. (maybe a bit in season 4, but you get my point.) He was living in Xander's or Giles houses, he was helping fight the bad guys, the story was not treating him like a bad guy.
One thing about the Number 5 character, didn't the Beast kill everyone at W and H last season. Lilah even says he got people out sick that day. If Number 5 was hired years earlier why wasn't he killed?
And before you think he was transferred from a different W and H office, his brothers were buried here and the demon who killed them rose from here so it seems like he always lived in Los Angeles.
Might’ve visited Mexico or somewhere like that out of California and you know jasmine probably wouldn’t want him just going out on a wild goose chase plus Lilah got away and Lindsey was probably still signed as working for Wolfram and Hart and he lived
Harmony added a fun energy to the show, it would have been more depressing without her there to make jokes. And I am sure she'd have had a redemption arc in season 6. Having said that, I find it refreshing that she had no redemption arc. Redemption arcs have been done to death. It's a nice change of pac for her to not be redeemed after all.
5:51 I’m not sure that’s a fair assessment of Eve OR the actress. The actress does a wonderful job. As for eve being no replacement I find that’s the point. They were NEVER going to trust someone else afterlilah and she plays the part well, her professional attitude breaking apart as Lindsey gets his hands on her.
😢
Soooooo will you do Firefly
It’s on the way, don’t know when I’ll finish it but in the next few months hopefully.
@@episodicanalysis Thank you
If it is true that the Netwerk was not planning on canceling Angel after season four. Why would they cancel Angel after season five started when Josh Weeden asked for a guarantee of a season six?
Joss Whedon lacks social skills, apparently. He can across as marking a power play and it rankled the executives egos and they wet like "screw this guy."" that is the internet rumor anyways. 😊
The greatest tv spin off is Better Call Saul, but Angel is a great 2nd
I wish I could hear a word you're saying
this was a great series. I loved your videos. But the greatest Spin-off AND the greatest character arc are both in Better Call Saul. As good as this show was, that one was better.
20:14 why does everyone hate this episode?!
I have to say caveman because all they have to do is fight, hunt and survive. I think they are more practiced.
Exactly! Yeah astronauts are in good shape, but how often do they have to duke it out with Smilodons and Mamoths?
WTF is wrong with the audio?
It was so quiet that I had trouble hearing with headphones on.
This is just unacceptable.
Why did all the females die in this show lol 😂
You lost me at season 4 was a mess
Season 5 had some ups & downs but I like it but it was some boring ass episodes in this Season Tho
I severely disliked Conner as well probably the most useless character in the show I mean baby Conner was fine but once he returns from cortoth well boo he sincerely sucks on a cellular lever I really hate him
I agree with EA that Connor is likeable when he isnt doing the emo.
gotta admit i never understood the love for "Smile Time". I think it's the worst episode of the entire series. i have an alternate version in my head of how i'd write the episode that I think could have made it a lot better.
What the hell do i do with my life now?!