Honestly, I think that if the audience were made aware *at the end of "Spin the Bottle" or the start of the next ep* that Cordy's body was possessed then public opinion of S4 would be dramatically higher. There is no character assassination. Cordelia didn't choose to sleep with Connor. All the other little strange behaviors are not weakening the character we used to love; they are Charisma playing another character entirely. It would also be great if Connor's characterization from the end of the season were clear earlier. He hates Angel **not** because Angel is a vampire but because Angel let Holtz take him to Quor'toth. He says this outright in the S4 finale, and it recontextualizes a lot of his angst into a fascinating coping mechanism (although it doesn't make it any more *fun* to watch). Unfortunately I don't think Connor realized this himself at the start of the season-certainly he wouldn't have admitted it out loud then-so I don't see any easy fix for this issue (unlike the Cordy/Jasmine thing, which would have been extremely easy to tell the audience earlier).
Like you said making it clear this isnt cordellia would be a good thing but also i think they needed to have cordy come back for at least a moment and we see the real cordy
Totally agree with everything you’ve said! As much as I didn’t mind the not-knowing that Cordy wasn’t herself for the shock value of when we did find out (part of me feels they held off so long revealing it just for shock moment of killing Lilah, but I still feel it wouldve been a big shock even if we did know!). But you’re so right, people feel that Cordys character was ruined but they choose to not remember that it ISNT EVEN HER!
“They talk about me in the chatty rooms?” is so great though. Mentioning Angel’s status as a sort of modern day folk hero that people talk about online is such a lovely touch, suggesting that people are constantly speculating and reporting to friends online what he’s up to. I like to think that during the Angelus arc, people were going back and forth on forum’s about him the way people talk about TH-camr or social media influencer drama.
I'm always totally conflicted about this season. The first third and last third are both SO fun, and they really ramp everything up further than it was in earlier seasons. Jasmine is absolutely fucking unhinged and god, I love it. The mystery they built up the whole season holds the whole thing together, and she's a perfect conclusion to it. And FRED, god... I adore Amy, I first saw her in Dollhouse and fell in love with her acting on Person of Interest, and it was actually really hard for me to like Fred from the get-go because she's SO different compared to every role I've seen her in. This season gives you exactly what you want to see from one of her characters. I love so much about this season that it's actually hard to recognize that it's my least favorite of the series. When it fails, it fails hard.
It was the best of things, it was the worst of things. I think part of why it leaves such a bad taste for me is because there is a sense of what it might have been; all the potential in Fred, Gun, and Gwen particularly which I feel is wasted in Season 5. Great video
And wesley would havw been better just left with leila. like thats clearly what should haunt him. And leave gunn and fred. ther was no need making wes and fred a thing , and gunn would have a better role as ber boyfriend. and
I’m so happy that you’re doing more Buffyverse videos, they’re some of my favorites! If you ever want to do a full video on Faith, I would love to see it.
A fair assesment of the season. It has some things I really enjoy like the Faith/Angelus arc and Gwen, but I really struggle with the Cordy/Connor stuff and so only rank this above season 1, which I find can be a bit of a slog. Some aspects of season 4 feel overly contrived, like the Beast forging a weapon out of it's own bone, which seemed to have little point but was conveniently the only thing that could kill it. Overall the season feels to me like parts of several stories smooshed together rather than a coherent whole.
Great video! I think a lot of the more painful aspects of Season 4 tend to crowd out the better moments in my overall memory of it, but looking back at it now there's definitely a lot to like in it.
I would have liked to see several episodes of Faith in prison, how she was coping with her situation and using restraint to keep from killing her fellow inmates. This gives her a redemption arc not really seen in the series.
I've been watching Buffy and Angel continuously since they both originally aired and I have to say, your takes on each of them are by far the most thoughtful and refreshing I've come across (aside from maybe TPN). It's not just that you're simply offering "hot takes", you're actually backing them up with substance and your love of the shows and these characters clearly shines through. I can see in your comment sections that you get a fair bit of pushback from certain individuals, but I hope that doesn't discourage you from making more Buffyverse related videos! You've gained another subscriber here :)
nahh, honestly? most of the comments are positive. these last two videos are the closest to "controversial" "hot takes" i've made, so i expected some pushback (people are allowed to disagree!). the most venom i've gotten was on she ra videos long ago. c'est la vie
I’ve always said that if you removed certain things like Evil!Cordy snd Connor/Cordy ATS season 4 would be a fan favourite That said it obviously wouldn’t fix all the issues with the season. We’d still have to suffer through the least compelling love triangle in TV history and I think the lack of levity would still make it but of a slog at points. I think a way around this would be to have Lilah join the AI team from the minute W&H gets destroyed. Calvary is a bright spot in mid S4 because Lilah adds such a breath of fresh air into the team and there’s someone around who can actually crack a joke or two. Plus it would make her death in Calvary an actual surprise instead of an “oh, I guess they brought her back to kill her?” That said. I enjoy S4 for its imperfect glory. Wes/Lilah is one of my favourite parts of whole buffyverse for me so it’s a non-negotiable watch for that reason alone, but I’m always shocked at how much I do actually enjoy the plot at large whenever I rewatch - despite the glaring and upsetting issues.
Good points about what's good and bad about this season. But I think there's another element that contributed to a degree, though I'm not sure how much. At the time of making this season the behind the scenes teams would have been working on 3 projects at once. Angel Season 4, Buffy Season 7 and Firefly, both Buffy and Firefly would have been higher priority projects cause one was the ending of a show and the other was the beginning of a show. This seems to make sense especially when you look at Angel Season 5. Going from Season 4 which is contentious at best to Season 5 which is easily regarded a top 5 if not top 3 season of the entire Buffyverse cause all the production people went from dealing with 3 shows to just 1 in a single production cycle and for the first time since Buffy Season 3.
This was such a great video. Angel S4 is definitely my least-rewatched part of both shows and at this point it's been YEARS since I've watched it. But I've been rewatching both with my sister (her first time) and we're coming up on S4 pretty soon. I've been dreading it a little, but your analysis has given me a lot to think about. I think even if I don't love it this time through (and let's be real, I probably won't lol) I'm at least going to find it really interesting.
This season is my favorite. Jasmin is the greatest and well-developed evil (kind) character that i have watched in tv shows. Ideas of this season are very smart and deep.
This is my favorite season of the entire Buffyverse. I don't get how people can let the whole Cordy/Connor thing sour the entire season for them. I love how serialized this season is and how BIG the episodes are. We get the destructive Beast Arc, the introspective Angelus arc, and the creepy Jasmine arc... all back-to-back with no break. It was such a wild ride that just left me going "wow". Not to mention the amazing season opener and closer episodes.
I wonder if you didn't watch it at the same time as other people watching Angel. The friends you watched it alongside might also have altered your experience.
@@Leto2ndAtreides I watched it alone and it was my favourite. It's got some 'sloggy' bits in the middle which are hard on rewatches like Connor and Cordy being stuck in Cordy's room for multiple episodes and trying to find Angel's soul, it's so boring. I didn't actually hate the Connor Cordy stuff as much as other people who act like she's his biological mom or something. I wasn't particularly fond of Darla or Holtz storylines so that probably helps. S4 was packed with some of the best stuff in the show.
Aside from you know what, I think this season is amazing because how bonkers it is. And Jasmine, a Power That Was, that's supposed to be about good, being the "big bad" of the season is such an interesting twist. A redone Season 4 without its problems, a better executed one, would surely make it the best Angel season imo. After watching it the first time, it ended up ranking as my least fave as well, but I watch Buffy reactions and it is so much fun to follow along with them ahaha.
Thanks for making such great videos on the Buffyverse. Even if it's been years since I watched a season, your recaps are always thorough enough to help me remember the plot points I originally appreciated and your analysis gives me a new appreciation for elements that may not have stood out to me on previous viewings.
Honestly, I'm glad to hear this take. I really enjoy Angel season 4 despite its problems (it's the season that got me into the Buffyverse LOL) so I'm glad to hear more people are either coming around to it or just presenting a more nuanced perspective on the whole thing. Every season/show has its flaws, after all.
It may be an unpopular opinion but I enjoyed Season 4 way more than Season 3. 🤷🏿♂️....I thought Season 4 was way more compelling than all the Holtz/Connor drama in Season 3
The old 22-24 episode season formula was definitely a product of its time. I wonder how streamlined Buffy and Angel would have been in this new era of 12 episode seasons. Then again some shows still waste time with that 12 episode count.
Jasmine is a god of decay, Glory is a god of insanity. They also both need to consume humans in order to survive on the material plane which is interesting, it seems to be a rule for all life there. I think her appearance and what she did to that guy fits for me. She can't kill him outright in front of other people so she infects him with her essence in a way that will take him off the board eventually.
I like season 4. Sure, certain plot lines leave a lot to be desired, but I liked it a lot. I didn’t like that Cordelia was completely sidelined after Jasmine came about. And I fully agree with you about Gwen, the rest of the show I was hoping we’d see way more. My main complaint is how little they explained the whole secret plan to set up jasmine’s appearance. It seemed like they spent all of 2 minutes talking about it and then they move on. There should have at least been multiple episodes discussing it and having flashbacks, that type of thing.
To be fair, I love angel season 4. Character wise has many flaws, true, but plot-wise (fanboy rant coming), I love it!! When Angelus revealed that the Beast, these powerful scary demon, had a Boss, that blow my mind. To these day, I still love that trope of a very powerful being working for something even bigger. And Jasmine plan was good and today in forums I still see debates if she was good or evil, also in having an enemy that can not be fight in a normal way because she removes free will trully makes her feel as a higuer being.
Without having to analyse this season, I'm going to say that this was the first Angel season that was hit and miss for me. Sure it had its moments and I do like how the style of this season is more morbid and gritty in tone, but there were things I hated about it. Not a fan of Wesley's complete change in personality and of course the disturbing relationship between Cordelia (possessed) and Connor. I know Cordelia isn't Connor's mother, but she is his surrogate mother which was why it looked gross and disturbing. In conclusion, I would still watch Angel season four as part of my annual Buffy and Angel marathon and enjoy and appreciate for what it is.
Besides Connor’s characterisation (or lack thereof) this is a brilliant season and is actually my favourite season of Angel the themes, the plot twists, and the character building it does is amazing
I’ve always loved season four, and if people can’t parse that it wasn’t really Cordelia after being told so, then that’s their problem. Even more so, I’ll never have time for people that say Angel season four sucks when those same people typically think Buffy season six is good.
@@WesleyWyndam-Pryce she was. We lost an important character and some storylines never got resolved because of it. I don’t hate S4 for it and I don’t hate S5 because we lost Fred either. They both fit with the show’s adult themes; sometimes we lose the people we love, and if we’re particularly unlucky it is in horrible ways that leave us angry.
@@WesleyWyndam-Pryce she was. We lost an important character and some storylines never got resolved because of it. I don’t hate S4 for it and I don’t hate S5 because we lost Fred either. They both fit with the show’s adult themes; sometimes we lose the people we love, and if we’re particularly unlucky it is in horrible ways that leave us angry.
Finally!! Someone agrees. I agree with literally every word... up until the end. I DO like season 4. I DO think it is a good season. I prefer it to season 3. It's level, for me, with season 5. This is absolutely a fair assessment of the season, but I DO enjoy it. I hated it when it aired, but it grows on me more on each rewatch 🤷♀️
S4 was like a bruised but otherwise juicy peach. You gotta ignore the bad stuff because, well, you lay it out. But it had as many great episodes as any buffyverse season except, IMHO, Buffy 2 and 3 which were transcendent to me.
Probably the single most memorable shot from Angel to me--and I acknowledge this makes me very sappy--is that quiet moment in season 3 when Angel and Cordelia are lying on the bed together with baby Connor in between them. So of course season 4 had to ruin that in the worst possible way. I'll always hate that aspect of the season, and now knowing the full behind-the-scenes story of Whedon's atrocious behavior makes it even worse. At the time, it was just baffling and gross. Wiiiiith all of that said, I agree that there are some really great parts of season 4 as well. It probably has the best production design and overall production values of any Buffyverse season. The cosmic/eldritch horror aspects are incredibly well done at times. That one fight with the Beast is probably the most cinematic any of the shows has ever been.
There was so much good in this season, I think you can argue the season was mostly good, but it’s the bad that was just SO BAD it completely weighs down the season as a whole. If it weren’t for *that* plot point this would’ve been one of the best seasons of the show. It’s just sad because the awful plot points only exist because of Whedon’s vindictiveness towards Charisma Carpenter. If he wasn’t such a megalomaniac the season would’ve been next to perfect.
I loved season 4. probably because i loved connor, who had the saddest, most confusing life and couldn't deal, and was played so well by Vincent. People seem to hate him, but i felt he was one of the most tragic beings i've ever seen created, and i found his life prior to s5 sad.
I do feel like I need to give it a fair chance, but the way Charisma was treated leaves such a bad taste to me that it's hard to try with most of the season to me.
I guess I never heard that it was supposed to be a bad season. My biggest problem with it is that It doesn't share enough reference with Buffy S07 though I love what we get. The First should have been mentioned on Angel since it's kind of an all encompassing thing, being the ultimate evil and all.
Yeah, as much as I generally loathe this season it had the potential to be the best season. "The gang must confront Angelus" (though it's really sad that none of the people who had to deal with Angelus during season 2 of Buffy are there what with Cordelia possessed and Wesley the only real Buffy alum), "Faith Returns," "Wolfram and Hart got destroyed by the Beast and not even Team Angel can dent him." Jasmine was a great arc it's just disgusting how we got there. I love how Fred was the first one unaffected and had to be on her own . Faith returning was amazing. We even got to see crossovers again (we were devoid of them for season 3 and limited in season two). And yes Gwen was a delight. While we had to deal with the love triangle a bit, Gunn and Fred did break up early on in the season so we didn't have to keep watching them make Google eyes. But we still had the stupid Cordelia Assassination arc. Faith was on for like 3 episodes then left to finish off Buffy. Connor still acts all pigheaded the whole time. He could have been like Nightwing meets Damian Wayne - the two best Robins, but instead, we get Jason Todd meets Damian Wayne - the two worst Robins. And Gwen could have been a great addition to the team, instead she's randomly inserted to seemingly pad the episode count.
I also loved the dynamic between Wesly and Faith. He is her watcher after all, and it shows that he knows how to get the best out of her. The only thing that I dont like about this season, is that its not clear from what point Cordy was not Cordy anymore. Ive watched this season so many times, but it just doesnt make sense, certain dialogs or facial expressions from Cordy, if it was Jasmine all along, certain things just dont add up. Like after she slept with Connor, you can see her regret the next day; telling Connor it cannot happen again. If she was Jasmin, it would not have mattered. Ive tried to justify it in my mind like; it was Cordy, but she was under the influence of Jasmin, without her knowing it. Making her do things she'd regret, kinda like with alcohol or drugs. Untill it was to late, and Jasmin took full control.
I love the angel faith stuff and the Lila Wesley relationship two characters so dedicated to being cold they refused to admit they are falling in love Connor seemed overbearing and I didn't like what they did with Cordelia gein was really good but seemed very out of place in season 4 I always thought her episodes would have fit better in season 2 or 3 but over all great season
Season 4 of angel is my favorite season. Its number 1 defense attorney is here! Hahaha jk....but angel season 4 was my favorite season because of its fight scenes and great episodes and moments that literally define the series as a whole. We wouldnt have the great season 5 without season 4 and everything that took place.
I had no idea Season 4 was reviled. I think they do a great job setting up the scale of the threat. Jasmine, The Beast, Angelus, Faith, there's so much to love about it. I wouldn't say I'm a *hardcore* Buffyverse fan, but I've seen every ep. It's always been my favourite and I'd put it higher than any season of Buffy or Angel.
Vincent Kartheiser said in an interview that he felt like his gig on Angel in season 4 was the same scene on an endless loop: Connor strops in, attacks Angel verbally or physically, and strops out. Aside from his suicide bomb setup at the end of the season, he's not wrong.
People really think Angel season 4 is the worst between the two shows? I'd have to give that to Buffy's 4th season. Even though both storylines leave much to be desired and both seasons fuck over some characters (Oz and Cordelia). The defining difference is that Angel's villains that season had the cool factor. The Beast and Jasmine certainly beat out whatever the hell they were trying to do with Adam and the Initiative
I got into Angel by watching this from mid-season as it aired week-by-week. It got me hooked because of the Faith/Buffy crossover, and I stayed with it until the end. I even watched Chronicles of Riddick because Alexa Davalos (Gwen) was a co-star. That's how much I like this season.
I remember really liking this season while it kept ratcheting up the conflict and feeling really let down that is all lead to jasmine. The entire series up until this leads up to her and it doesnt properly explain her and dispatches her too quickly.
The major problem with wesley is that he doesn't apoligize. One of the biggest problems with xander is that he fears commitment. Their issues are not really addressed or grown out of, just ignored. And they are both Joss Whedon's self insert characters.......... Funny that.
Def not a huge fan of this season, but I don't think I'd consider it bad. The Cordelia stuff is really bad, but to me, her appearance in You're Welcome kinda salvages what they did with her here. I like what Vincent Kartheiser does with what little he's asked to do as Connor (he's much better in s5), David Boreanaz is awesome as always, and I think the Beast/Faith storylines are actually pretty strong too.
The issue I think is that Season 4 is an odd mismash of AWESOME and FLAMING DOGSHIT. There are some truly killer moments and episodes that are Top 10 in the show for me.... but everything Cordy and Connor is just so fucking horrible, it really takes a hot steaming piss all over the entirety of Season 4.
Aside from Cordy and Connor failure I just found Connor to be insufferable. I wish there was more growth from his character instead of have his memory erased in season 4 finale.
Whenever I explain season 4 I remember how many aspects are so good, but when watching I can't get through the slog of horrendously bad choices. I'm at my happiest when the Buffy characters cameo and for the one episode where they go to Vegas to see Lorne. To contrast, I love Buffy season 6 because it lets every character shine even as they show every character fall. The lack of Giles makes sense as he's the metaphorical mind for Buffy, something that she has a hard time connecting to due to her depression shutting down her reasoning. The lack of Cordelia, though, just oozes of Whedon running his hands together saying how Charisma will regret ever "going against him". Compared to Buffy, Angel always had a bit of a problem with the women characters getting as much focus as the guys and felt that was exasperated in season 4, outside of the Fred development (finally) at the end. Also, as said on the last video TH-cam didn't deign to show me and I had to go looking for, I liked Slayers, if only because it was more fun (and interesting) than Buffy season 7 and Angel season 4. Hopefully if they do a sequel they'll have Fred and Willow, but I know it depends on what actors they can get. Original Willow especially meeting alternate Tara would make me bawl like a baby.
There's a re-edit of the season that removes the Connor/Cordelia storyline entirely and leaves everything else as it is, makes the season the great season it is disguised by that terrible plot which was removed.
Watching this reminds me of the good and bad S4 has to offer. I love brooding Wesley and his affair with Lilah, the return of Faith and Angelus, the first two episodes of the Jasmine arc where Fred shines is remarkable as well as the hilarity of Spin the Bottle. The bad is seeing the real life pettiness play out on screen with Cordelia’s character assassination by Joss. And seeing how Charisma visibly looks disturbed at times with the direction of Cordelia really dampers the show. I remember thinking, “what the hell is this and can we get to S5 already?” Overall, I think S4 is the only bad season of the show, but if this is the lowest point of the series, it still beats out a lot of other series low points.
I'm sorry but this and your roasting of season seven is proof of how subjective these things are. On the other hand totally agree with you about Faith, Wiliah and Gwen and the Willow cameo.The rest - well guess we're here for different things although I do agree about the questions Jasmine poses and Fred being a badass but not the Angel snog and Gunn's line although not the Deus ex Jasmina it reacts to.
Season 7 of Buffy is easily my least favourite season in the entire Buffyverse. Season 4 of Angel is often bad, but at least it's entertaining. Season 7 of Buffy (the first 7 or so episodes aside) is bad AND boring, which to me is unforgiveable.
Gwen... I think she almost gets along too well once the initial conflicts are solved. So she ends up lacking differentiation. All the characters bring different emotions / personalities to the game (some that we don't necessarily like). Gwen was kinda cool, but she may have needed more edge... Or a stronger reason to be part of Team Angel (like a larger shared mission with more setup)
@@5x5Takes I was just expressing excitement over my presumption that since you covered Season 4 that Season 5 might be next for you. I suppose I could’ve worded that a bit more coherently.
@@blornblad4381 oh! i see what you mean :) i just wanted to clarify that it’s not my first watch thru. and yea, i’m sure i have some s5 opinions worth sharing (here’s one: i think spike’s arc in it is great)
I wonder how much of Connor's flaws as a character can be chalked up to the actor. I feel terrible saying this because he's a person, and also an actor I grew to enjoy very much but that's kind of the point - I enjoyed him as Pete in Mad Men, where he's very... Connor. He has some kind of unlikeable vibe, like he doesn't fit in any scene he's in, he's too officious, he's trying to act like the people around him but can't do it. And it feels silly to call that "a flaw" because that feature is pretty obviously crucial to both Connor and Pete's characters when you think about it! But it works too well, as an audience we don't only see why he's unlikeable to the other characters, we find him equally if not more unlikeable and that makes him unpleasant to watch. But in Mad Men they somehow turned it into something endearing and Angel never really does. Like you I loved moments at the end like the reveal that he saw Jasmine's true face the whole time but it's not comparable to the seasons-long process of making him actually enjoyable Mad Men did. Probably part of the difference is that in Angel Connor is interacting with charismatic heroes (however flawed they might be), in a show about charismatic heroism (however much it may question the concept) so his sniveling awkwardness just stands out and feels unforgiveable given the stakes. In Mad Men he interacts with charismatic anti-heroes who the show is invested in gradually revealing as total frauds each pathetic in their own way - and conversely gives Pete traits that fit with his social awkwardness in the setting but read to a modern audience as redeeming, almost revolutionary virtues (his fairly progressive opinions for a person of his milieu). In other words, Mad Men tries to undermine the concept of charisma=value and this probably gives them the tools/incentive to make Pete likeable despite (even because of) his lack of charisma in ways that are completely out of Angel's repertoire. Maybe there's also something about his role in the story - in Mad Men he's originally set up as a minor villain, an inferior rival to Don Draper and a creepy suitor to Peggy, so him being awkward and unlikeable feels satisfying. In Angel Connor is Angel's son, ripped from him in the most traumatic of circumstances and twisted into being his enemy. Him being unlikeable on top of that leaves the audience conflicted about what they should root for. Anyway, all that to say: the fact Vincent Kartheiser played such similar roles with such a similar vibe at the beginning makes me wonder how much of that vibe just came from him/his acting at the time.
So, massive caveat that I haven't watch Mad Men, so don't have that point of comparison, but I felt like, in the brief moments that Connor was allowed by the writing to be not-snivelling, he was likeable (at least to me). While there are moments of this in Season 4, I think this is most apparent in his Season 5 episodes. The Connor of the new reality is really likeable. To an extent, you can also see the potential he had in Season 3, as that broken boy with who still had a chance at non-magical redemption. It was Season 4 that really broke him and needed magical resetting.
I don't know how much blame you can put on Vincent Kartheiser, at the end of the day he's only playing the character that's been written for him and so much of what makes Connor unlikeable IMO is in the script. That's on the writers, not the actor.
I didn't care too much for season 4 when it originally aired, but on rewatch I found that it actually has a lot of good stuff in there if you can block out Connor and over look what they did to Cordelia. Also, I never could stand Glen. Her backstory is too similar to Rogue from X-Men, and she didn't the overall mood of the show. As far as the worst season of both shows, that would definitely go to Buffy Season 6. I find it unwatchable, and I've tried to rewatch it on several occasions. Marti Noxon didn't understand the show even though she had written good episodes prior to becoming the show runner.
Season four of the greatest. I don’t know what anybody says the five angels the greatest ever positive best rating came from Andrew angel sent from the desk from
The only bad thing about Angel Season 4 is Connor and Cordy as far as I'm concerned. But I mostly ignore any scene that has Connor in it, so it's not a problem for me.
i started skipping every scene with connor and significantly enjoyed it a lot more. This might be an unfair comparison but Damian Wayne from Batman I feel is what they were trying to get to with Connor. Damian goes through a lot of character growth and is portrayed with charisma and humour. Connor nearly made me quit the show.
You raise some compelling points about S4 but it’s irredeemable and brings forward the more frustrating aspects from season 3. So maybe not right to just say season 4 alone is bad, because some of its themes were present before and it just continues down a road no one wanted to see the penultimate season take. It’s like you took a detour and instead of still ending up at Chuck-e-cheese after a long and twisting road you end up at the dentist for a wisdom teeth extraction. It sucks all the energy from the show and just leaves you irritated. So, sure there are points that don’t absolutely suck. But it was a wrecking ball to the series and season 5 was such a twist you just feel robbed and then the show ends
The worst part of season 4 is how the narrative failed Cordelia. Like her arc in yhe first three seasons is so amazing. Then its just shelved. My bitterness over Joss ruining Cordelia out of spite for Charisma makes me dislike the season. Because Cordelia was one of my favorite characters. But all in all season 4 wasn't bad bad. I wish the story had gone a different way with Cordelia and Conner. But it is what it is. And Jazmine was a great pay off for the season.
Buffy Season 6 and Angel Season 4 are considered the worst seasons of their shows and in my opinion they are but they are still very great Seasons I love how dark both of their seasons get and both of their seasons test both of Buffy and Angel characters like never before maybe arguably more than they were tested in their respective final seasons
Season 4 has great set up but half way in feels sabotaged. Like Weadon didn't get something he wanted behind the scenes and started to tank the season.
In the defense of s4 haters, if you served season 4 as a meal, it'd a completely fine and mostly enjoyable dinner... until you put what was done to Cordy (and Charisma) on it, which for a lot of people feels like someone dumped a bunch of [censored] and [censored] on top of some [censored] [censored], and so when they think about the season now, that's all they can remember. 😂 (It's me, I'm they.) Angel seasons are also not as dinstinct and structured as Buffy seasons, so I often have a harder time distinguishing them for each other. Like, logically, I know that Spin the Bottle, Faith coming back and Fred the Survival Hero happens in s4, but the association is just not as strong in my mind. Well, at least not as much as the Thing that Also Happens, I suppose. ...Okay, maybe the problem is in fact in my head, and how I can't stop thinking about The Bad. 🤣
@@5x5Takes you've said why! Lol But, in all seriousness, like Angel, he's more fleshed out. Also, in season 2, we only saw him basically targeting Buffy (and Spike to an extent) plus starting an apocalypse. Basically, he was bitchy. In Angel, he was still bitchy, we saw him manipulate people, we saw how sick and brutal he could be towards his victims, even if he just talks about it. We also saw how much he HATES Angel, especially in the mind trip. And this is minor, but his laugh at the end of "awakening(?)," his laugh was so creepy and evil and awesome. And if none of that convinces you, then my final argument is, "Uh-oh! Vampire with a gun!" I fucking love that line!
But one from Buffy the Vampire Slayer from Buffy the Vampire Slayer come up on the channel right now with the angel and that that’s proof because that is this the best season for me to leave that’s the best the best season ever and it really went up. That’s why I always seem to go up and got canceled prematurely. I would say that they want to make the seat WB angel of death of a show. I know that makes me feel icky to.
Totally disagree that Charisma's acting was bad in this season, it seems like you're buying into the negative Whedon hype when he really wasn't all that involved in the season. The storyline changed to include Jasmine after Charisma got pregnant and couldn't do the action scenes, she was always supposed to be bad. I also really enjoyed Conner's character and similar to Dawn never found his character annoying. I thought Season 4 was great , just my two cents .
@@DisWriter From Wikipedia Whedon would write and direct only one episode of the season, "Spin the Bottle", because of his commitments to the first season of Firefly and the final season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
Strongly disagree with your entire take. I watched Angel for the first time and i loved season 1-3 but season 4 was horrible. The reveal of Cordelia being posessed happened too late. She spent the entire season either flirting with Angels son and that was really uncomortable to watch, or she spent the season in a coma. Pretty much the entire season was a love drama between Angel, his son, Cordelia and Wesley, Fred and Gunn and it got tiresome really fast. Angels son is the most unlikable character i have ever seen. After it was revealed that Angel did not kill Holtz, he didn't even care that he was lied to. The guy was just an angry emo just for the sake of being an angry emo and why was this little annoying *** in the main cast, but Lorne wasn't untill episode 17? Literally the only good thing about this season was Wesley character growth, Angelus returning and the beast that no one was able to defeat. I honestly have no interest in watching season 5 after finishing season 1-4 because the show lost everything that made it good. I watched season 1-4 in 2 weeks and a month later have not tried to watch season 5.
I had a crazy theory that part of season 4 was inspired by a conspiracy theory of 9/11. The conspiracy theory is that 9/11 was engineered to create a peaceful new world order. In terms of the show, the actions of the Beast are 9/11, and Jasmine would be the face of the new world order.
I don’t know if that’s true but I watched Season 4 as it aired and the political environment was tense and toxic on a level that I thought the Jasmine arc captures perfectly. The original broadcast of “Orpheus” was disrupted by the presidential address announcing the US invasion of Iraq (right as Connor was about to stab Angel.) I remember feeling that the dread in this season reflected the real world perfectly in the same way the new version of Battlestar Galactica did. Tension, fear, conformity the vague sense of apocalypse while meanwhile having stupid love triangles and jobs and all. I always loved season 4 and I was sorry to hear that it was a nightmare to make.
![I wish I could (and I don't) love Wes [Angel the Series]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/QesOzxN3Vss/mqdefault.jpg)
Honestly, I think that if the audience were made aware *at the end of "Spin the Bottle" or the start of the next ep* that Cordy's body was possessed then public opinion of S4 would be dramatically higher. There is no character assassination. Cordelia didn't choose to sleep with Connor. All the other little strange behaviors are not weakening the character we used to love; they are Charisma playing another character entirely.
It would also be great if Connor's characterization from the end of the season were clear earlier. He hates Angel **not** because Angel is a vampire but because Angel let Holtz take him to Quor'toth. He says this outright in the S4 finale, and it recontextualizes a lot of his angst into a fascinating coping mechanism (although it doesn't make it any more *fun* to watch). Unfortunately I don't think Connor realized this himself at the start of the season-certainly he wouldn't have admitted it out loud then-so I don't see any easy fix for this issue (unlike the Cordy/Jasmine thing, which would have been extremely easy to tell the audience earlier).
Like you said making it clear this isnt cordellia would be a good thing but also i think they needed to have cordy come back for at least a moment and we see the real cordy
Totally agree with everything you’ve said! As much as I didn’t mind the not-knowing that Cordy wasn’t herself for the shock value of when we did find out (part of me feels they held off so long revealing it just for shock moment of killing Lilah, but I still feel it wouldve been a big shock even if we did know!). But you’re so right, people feel that Cordys character was ruined but they choose to not remember that it ISNT EVEN HER!
Holt was effectively his father, and they had a good amount of mutual trust. So, hating Angel for letting him be with his father sounds iffy.
I'll have to have another look at it, but I thought it was made pretty clear from the word go that it wasn't Cordelia.
“They talk about me in the chatty rooms?” is so great though. Mentioning Angel’s status as a sort of modern day folk hero that people talk about online is such a lovely touch, suggesting that people are constantly speculating and reporting to friends online what he’s up to. I like to think that during the Angelus arc, people were going back and forth on forum’s about him the way people talk about TH-camr or social media influencer drama.
he’s so endearing in that
I still hate the ConnorXCordelia but other than that it was alright
Faith/Eliza was worth it all! Connor/Vincent was a million missed opportunities because (elephant) this was the height of Joss's abusive megalomania.
I'm always totally conflicted about this season.
The first third and last third are both SO fun, and they really ramp everything up further than it was in earlier seasons. Jasmine is absolutely fucking unhinged and god, I love it. The mystery they built up the whole season holds the whole thing together, and she's a perfect conclusion to it. And FRED, god... I adore Amy, I first saw her in Dollhouse and fell in love with her acting on Person of Interest, and it was actually really hard for me to like Fred from the get-go because she's SO different compared to every role I've seen her in. This season gives you exactly what you want to see from one of her characters.
I love so much about this season that it's actually hard to recognize that it's my least favorite of the series. When it fails, it fails hard.
It was the best of things, it was the worst of things. I think part of why it leaves such a bad taste for me is because there is a sense of what it might have been; all the potential in Fred, Gun, and Gwen particularly which I feel is wasted in Season 5. Great video
And wesley would havw been better just left with leila. like thats clearly what should haunt him. And leave gunn and fred. ther was no need making wes and fred a thing , and gunn would have a better role as ber boyfriend.
and
I’m so happy that you’re doing more Buffyverse videos, they’re some of my favorites!
If you ever want to do a full video on Faith, I would love to see it.
oh would love to. what kind of video would you most enjoy
@@5x5Takes I mean anything would be wonderful because it’s Faith but specifically stuff focusing on parallels or corruption/redemption.
absolutely
A fair assesment of the season. It has some things I really enjoy like the Faith/Angelus arc and Gwen, but I really struggle with the Cordy/Connor stuff and so only rank this above season 1, which I find can be a bit of a slog. Some aspects of season 4 feel overly contrived, like the Beast forging a weapon out of it's own bone, which seemed to have little point but was conveniently the only thing that could kill it. Overall the season feels to me like parts of several stories smooshed together rather than a coherent whole.
Great video! I think a lot of the more painful aspects of Season 4 tend to crowd out the better moments in my overall memory of it, but looking back at it now there's definitely a lot to like in it.
I would have liked to see several episodes of Faith in prison, how she was coping with her situation and using restraint to keep from killing her fellow inmates. This gives her a redemption arc not really seen in the series.
I've been watching Buffy and Angel continuously since they both originally aired and I have to say, your takes on each of them are by far the most thoughtful and refreshing I've come across (aside from maybe TPN). It's not just that you're simply offering "hot takes", you're actually backing them up with substance and your love of the shows and these characters clearly shines through. I can see in your comment sections that you get a fair bit of pushback from certain individuals, but I hope that doesn't discourage you from making more Buffyverse related videos! You've gained another subscriber here :)
nahh, honestly? most of the comments are positive. these last two videos are the closest to "controversial" "hot takes" i've made, so i expected some pushback (people are allowed to disagree!). the most venom i've gotten was on she ra videos long ago. c'est la vie
this season has three episodes that are in my top ten for AtS: "Awakening", "Orpheus" and "Magic Bullet"
I’ve always said that if you removed certain things like Evil!Cordy snd Connor/Cordy ATS season 4 would be a fan favourite
That said it obviously wouldn’t fix all the issues with the season. We’d still have to suffer through the least compelling love triangle in TV history and I think the lack of levity would still make it but of a slog at points. I think a way around this would be to have Lilah join the AI team from the minute W&H gets destroyed. Calvary is a bright spot in mid S4 because Lilah adds such a breath of fresh air into the team and there’s someone around who can actually crack a joke or two. Plus it would make her death in Calvary an actual surprise instead of an “oh, I guess they brought her back to kill her?”
That said. I enjoy S4 for its imperfect glory. Wes/Lilah is one of my favourite parts of whole buffyverse for me so it’s a non-negotiable watch for that reason alone, but I’m always shocked at how much I do actually enjoy the plot at large whenever I rewatch - despite the glaring and upsetting issues.
Good points about what's good and bad about this season. But I think there's another element that contributed to a degree, though I'm not sure how much. At the time of making this season the behind the scenes teams would have been working on 3 projects at once. Angel Season 4, Buffy Season 7 and Firefly, both Buffy and Firefly would have been higher priority projects cause one was the ending of a show and the other was the beginning of a show. This seems to make sense especially when you look at Angel Season 5. Going from Season 4 which is contentious at best to Season 5 which is easily regarded a top 5 if not top 3 season of the entire Buffyverse cause all the production people went from dealing with 3 shows to just 1 in a single production cycle and for the first time since Buffy Season 3.
they were spread real thin
This was such a great video. Angel S4 is definitely my least-rewatched part of both shows and at this point it's been YEARS since I've watched it. But I've been rewatching both with my sister (her first time) and we're coming up on S4 pretty soon. I've been dreading it a little, but your analysis has given me a lot to think about. I think even if I don't love it this time through (and let's be real, I probably won't lol) I'm at least going to find it really interesting.
This season is my favorite. Jasmin is the greatest and well-developed evil (kind) character that i have watched in tv shows. Ideas of this season are very smart and deep.
If you like the Faith and Angel dynamic, you might want to check out the "Angel & Faith" comics, I thought they were pretty good.
This is my favorite season of the entire Buffyverse. I don't get how people can let the whole Cordy/Connor thing sour the entire season for them. I love how serialized this season is and how BIG the episodes are. We get the destructive Beast Arc, the introspective Angelus arc, and the creepy Jasmine arc... all back-to-back with no break. It was such a wild ride that just left me going "wow". Not to mention the amazing season opener and closer episodes.
I wonder if you didn't watch it at the same time as other people watching Angel.
The friends you watched it alongside might also have altered your experience.
@@Leto2ndAtreides I watched it alone and it was my favourite. It's got some 'sloggy' bits in the middle which are hard on rewatches like Connor and Cordy being stuck in Cordy's room for multiple episodes and trying to find Angel's soul, it's so boring. I didn't actually hate the Connor Cordy stuff as much as other people who act like she's his biological mom or something. I wasn't particularly fond of Darla or Holtz storylines so that probably helps. S4 was packed with some of the best stuff in the show.
Aside from you know what, I think this season is amazing because how bonkers it is. And Jasmine, a Power That Was, that's supposed to be about good, being the "big bad" of the season is such an interesting twist. A redone Season 4 without its problems, a better executed one, would surely make it the best Angel season imo. After watching it the first time, it ended up ranking as my least fave as well, but I watch Buffy reactions and it is so much fun to follow along with them ahaha.
I don't see how it could possibly be the worst when Buffy seasons 7 and 6 exist.
i like season 6 :)
Thanks for making such great videos on the Buffyverse. Even if it's been years since I watched a season, your recaps are always thorough enough to help me remember the plot points I originally appreciated and your analysis gives me a new appreciation for elements that may not have stood out to me on previous viewings.
that’s sweet of you to say! thank you
No, no, please, keep talking!
Honestly, I'm glad to hear this take. I really enjoy Angel season 4 despite its problems (it's the season that got me into the Buffyverse LOL) so I'm glad to hear more people are either coming around to it or just presenting a more nuanced perspective on the whole thing. Every season/show has its flaws, after all.
It may be an unpopular opinion but I enjoyed Season 4 way more than Season 3. 🤷🏿♂️....I thought Season 4 was way more compelling than all the Holtz/Connor drama in Season 3
The old 22-24 episode season formula was definitely a product of its time. I wonder how streamlined Buffy and Angel would have been in this new era of 12 episode seasons. Then again some shows still waste time with that 12 episode count.
Jasmine is a god of decay, Glory is a god of insanity. They also both need to consume humans in order to survive on the material plane which is interesting, it seems to be a rule for all life there. I think her appearance and what she did to that guy fits for me. She can't kill him outright in front of other people so she infects him with her essence in a way that will take him off the board eventually.
I like season 4. Sure, certain plot lines leave a lot to be desired, but I liked it a lot. I didn’t like that Cordelia was completely sidelined after Jasmine came about. And I fully agree with you about Gwen, the rest of the show I was hoping we’d see way more. My main complaint is how little they explained the whole secret plan to set up jasmine’s appearance. It seemed like they spent all of 2 minutes talking about it and then they move on. There should have at least been multiple episodes discussing it and having flashbacks, that type of thing.
Angel s4 is my favorite season in the Slayerverse.
To be fair, I love angel season 4. Character wise has many flaws, true, but plot-wise (fanboy rant coming), I love it!! When Angelus revealed that the Beast, these powerful scary demon, had a Boss, that blow my mind. To these day, I still love that trope of a very powerful being working for something even bigger. And Jasmine plan was good and today in forums I still see debates if she was good or evil, also in having an enemy that can not be fight in a normal way because she removes free will trully makes her feel as a higuer being.
Without having to analyse this season, I'm going to say that this was the first Angel season that was hit and miss for me. Sure it had its moments and I do like how the style of this season is more morbid and gritty in tone, but there were things I hated about it. Not a fan of Wesley's complete change in personality and of course the disturbing relationship between Cordelia (possessed) and Connor. I know Cordelia isn't Connor's mother, but she is his surrogate mother which was why it looked gross and disturbing.
In conclusion, I would still watch Angel season four as part of my annual Buffy and Angel marathon and enjoy and appreciate for what it is.
Besides Connor’s characterisation (or lack thereof) this is a brilliant season and is actually my favourite season of Angel the themes, the plot twists, and the character building it does is amazing
I’ve always loved season four, and if people can’t parse that it wasn’t really Cordelia after being told so, then that’s their problem.
Even more so, I’ll never have time for people that say Angel season four sucks when those same people typically think Buffy season six is good.
It's not that the people do not understand that it is not Cordelia, it's that she was robbed from the show.
@@WesleyWyndam-Pryce she was. We lost an important character and some storylines never got resolved because of it. I don’t hate S4 for it and I don’t hate S5 because we lost Fred either. They both fit with the show’s adult themes; sometimes we lose the people we love, and if we’re particularly unlucky it is in horrible ways that leave us angry.
@@WesleyWyndam-Pryce she was. We lost an important character and some storylines never got resolved because of it. I don’t hate S4 for it and I don’t hate S5 because we lost Fred either. They both fit with the show’s adult themes; sometimes we lose the people we love, and if we’re particularly unlucky it is in horrible ways that leave us angry.
Finally!! Someone agrees. I agree with literally every word... up until the end. I DO like season 4. I DO think it is a good season. I prefer it to season 3. It's level, for me, with season 5. This is absolutely a fair assessment of the season, but I DO enjoy it. I hated it when it aired, but it grows on me more on each rewatch 🤷♀️
S4 was like a bruised but otherwise juicy peach. You gotta ignore the bad stuff because, well, you lay it out. But it had as many great episodes as any buffyverse season except, IMHO, Buffy 2 and 3 which were transcendent to me.
I think faith and gwen should have been part of the team to be honest
Or if not fully part of the team they should have been more recurring
hard agree
Probably the single most memorable shot from Angel to me--and I acknowledge this makes me very sappy--is that quiet moment in season 3 when Angel and Cordelia are lying on the bed together with baby Connor in between them. So of course season 4 had to ruin that in the worst possible way. I'll always hate that aspect of the season, and now knowing the full behind-the-scenes story of Whedon's atrocious behavior makes it even worse. At the time, it was just baffling and gross.
Wiiiiith all of that said, I agree that there are some really great parts of season 4 as well. It probably has the best production design and overall production values of any Buffyverse season. The cosmic/eldritch horror aspects are incredibly well done at times. That one fight with the Beast is probably the most cinematic any of the shows has ever been.
There was so much good in this season, I think you can argue the season was mostly good, but it’s the bad that was just SO BAD it completely weighs down the season as a whole. If it weren’t for *that* plot point this would’ve been one of the best seasons of the show. It’s just sad because the awful plot points only exist because of Whedon’s vindictiveness towards Charisma Carpenter. If he wasn’t such a megalomaniac the season would’ve been next to perfect.
I loved season 4. probably because i loved connor, who had the saddest, most confusing life and couldn't deal, and was played so well by Vincent. People seem to hate him, but i felt he was one of the most tragic beings i've ever seen created, and i found his life prior to s5 sad.
I do feel like I need to give it a fair chance, but the way Charisma was treated leaves such a bad taste to me that it's hard to try with most of the season to me.
Season 4 Angel was my first and I loved it. I'm excited to see it again knowing people hate it lol
Liked the first few episodes loved the angelus episodes and the last couple that was it
Angel season 4 is better than Buffy season 7 at least.
i.....agree
Season 4 is my favourite.
I think S5 is the most overrated. Besides the Connor/Cordy thing... S4 rocks.
I guess I never heard that it was supposed to be a bad season. My biggest problem with it is that It doesn't share enough reference with Buffy S07 though I love what we get. The First should have been mentioned on Angel since it's kind of an all encompassing thing, being the ultimate evil and all.
I would have been happy to have Bethany and/or Gwen as regulars. Missed opportunities for sure.
Yeah, as much as I generally loathe this season it had the potential to be the best season. "The gang must confront Angelus" (though it's really sad that none of the people who had to deal with Angelus during season 2 of Buffy are there what with Cordelia possessed and Wesley the only real Buffy alum), "Faith Returns," "Wolfram and Hart got destroyed by the Beast and not even Team Angel can dent him."
Jasmine was a great arc it's just disgusting how we got there. I love how Fred was the first one unaffected and had to be on her own .
Faith returning was amazing. We even got to see crossovers again (we were devoid of them for season 3 and limited in season two). And yes Gwen was a delight. While we had to deal with the love triangle a bit, Gunn and Fred did break up early on in the season so we didn't have to keep watching them make Google eyes.
But we still had the stupid Cordelia Assassination arc. Faith was on for like 3 episodes then left to finish off Buffy. Connor still acts all pigheaded the whole time. He could have been like Nightwing meets Damian Wayne - the two best Robins, but instead, we get Jason Todd meets Damian Wayne - the two worst Robins. And Gwen could have been a great addition to the team, instead she's randomly inserted to seemingly pad the episode count.
I also loved the dynamic between Wesly and Faith. He is her watcher after all, and it shows that he knows how to get the best out of her.
The only thing that I dont like about this season, is that its not clear from what point Cordy was not Cordy anymore. Ive watched this season so many times, but it just doesnt make sense, certain dialogs or facial expressions from Cordy, if it was Jasmine all along, certain things just dont add up. Like after she slept with Connor, you can see her regret the next day; telling Connor it cannot happen again. If she was Jasmin, it would not have mattered.
Ive tried to justify it in my mind like; it was Cordy, but she was under the influence of Jasmin, without her knowing it. Making her do things she'd regret, kinda like with alcohol or drugs. Untill it was to late, and Jasmin took full control.
While I hate this season, I actually really enjoy reactors watch this season of Angel. 😂
I love the angel faith stuff and the Lila Wesley relationship two characters so dedicated to being cold they refused to admit they are falling in love Connor seemed overbearing and I didn't like what they did with Cordelia gein was really good but seemed very out of place in season 4 I always thought her episodes would have fit better in season 2 or 3 but over all great season
There was a lot to like about season 4, The beast, Faith, Angelus, Cordelias arc was really the only bad thing iirc but its been a while
Season 4 of angel is my favorite season. Its number 1 defense attorney is here! Hahaha jk....but angel season 4 was my favorite season because of its fight scenes and great episodes and moments that literally define the series as a whole. We wouldnt have the great season 5 without season 4 and everything that took place.
I had no idea Season 4 was reviled. I think they do a great job setting up the scale of the threat. Jasmine, The Beast, Angelus, Faith, there's so much to love about it. I wouldn't say I'm a *hardcore* Buffyverse fan, but I've seen every ep. It's always been my favourite and I'd put it higher than any season of Buffy or Angel.
Vincent Kartheiser said in an interview that he felt like his gig on Angel in season 4 was the same scene on an endless loop: Connor strops in, attacks Angel verbally or physically, and strops out.
Aside from his suicide bomb setup at the end of the season, he's not wrong.
yop
People really think Angel season 4 is the worst between the two shows? I'd have to give that to Buffy's 4th season. Even though both storylines leave much to be desired and both seasons fuck over some characters (Oz and Cordelia). The defining difference is that Angel's villains that season had the cool factor. The Beast and Jasmine certainly beat out whatever the hell they were trying to do with Adam and the Initiative
I got into Angel by watching this from mid-season as it aired week-by-week. It got me hooked because of the Faith/Buffy crossover, and I stayed with it until the end. I even watched Chronicles of Riddick because Alexa Davalos (Gwen) was a co-star. That's how much I like this season.
I wasn't aware season 4 was so hated by fans. I enjoyed it. The angel/Faith character arc is my favourite part of the buffyverse. 💜
It doesn't suck. But the Cordy storyline is atrocious because she needed to live. And the Joss backstory is so sad and terrible.
I remember really liking this season while it kept ratcheting up the conflict and feeling really let down that is all lead to jasmine. The entire series up until this leads up to her and it doesnt properly explain her and dispatches her too quickly.
The major problem with wesley is that he doesn't apoligize. One of the biggest problems with xander is that he fears commitment. Their issues are not really addressed or grown out of, just ignored. And they are both Joss Whedon's self insert characters..........
Funny that.
Def not a huge fan of this season, but I don't think I'd consider it bad. The Cordelia stuff is really bad, but to me, her appearance in You're Welcome kinda salvages what they did with her here. I like what Vincent Kartheiser does with what little he's asked to do as Connor (he's much better in s5), David Boreanaz is awesome as always, and I think the Beast/Faith storylines are actually pretty strong too.
We need reviews for ALL Buffyverse Seasons 💖💖
The issue I think is that Season 4 is an odd mismash of AWESOME and FLAMING DOGSHIT. There are some truly killer moments and episodes that are Top 10 in the show for me.... but everything Cordy and Connor is just so fucking horrible, it really takes a hot steaming piss all over the entirety of Season 4.
Aside from Cordy and Connor failure I just found Connor to be insufferable. I wish there was more growth from his character instead of have his memory erased in season 4 finale.
Whenever I explain season 4 I remember how many aspects are so good, but when watching I can't get through the slog of horrendously bad choices. I'm at my happiest when the Buffy characters cameo and for the one episode where they go to Vegas to see Lorne. To contrast, I love Buffy season 6 because it lets every character shine even as they show every character fall. The lack of Giles makes sense as he's the metaphorical mind for Buffy, something that she has a hard time connecting to due to her depression shutting down her reasoning. The lack of Cordelia, though, just oozes of Whedon running his hands together saying how Charisma will regret ever "going against him". Compared to Buffy, Angel always had a bit of a problem with the women characters getting as much focus as the guys and felt that was exasperated in season 4, outside of the Fred development (finally) at the end.
Also, as said on the last video TH-cam didn't deign to show me and I had to go looking for, I liked Slayers, if only because it was more fun (and interesting) than Buffy season 7 and Angel season 4. Hopefully if they do a sequel they'll have Fred and Willow, but I know it depends on what actors they can get. Original Willow especially meeting alternate Tara would make me bawl like a baby.
angel has so many woman problems
I gotta rewatch Buffy and Angel at some point. I hardly remember this season...I watched it shortly after it aired and barely remember it.
I agree I like Angel season 4!
There's a re-edit of the season that removes the Connor/Cordelia storyline entirely and leaves everything else as it is, makes the season the great season it is disguised by that terrible plot which was removed.
Watching this reminds me of the good and bad S4 has to offer. I love brooding Wesley and his affair with Lilah, the return of Faith and Angelus, the first two episodes of the Jasmine arc where Fred shines is remarkable as well as the hilarity of Spin the Bottle.
The bad is seeing the real life pettiness play out on screen with Cordelia’s character assassination by Joss. And seeing how Charisma visibly looks disturbed at times with the direction of Cordelia really dampers the show. I remember thinking, “what the hell is this and can we get to S5 already?”
Overall, I think S4 is the only bad season of the show, but if this is the lowest point of the series, it still beats out a lot of other series low points.
this season was a mess and quite frankly destroyed a lot of characters
Season 4 is my favourite season, dark and twisted... Love evil Cordy.
I'm sorry but this and your roasting of season seven is proof of how subjective these things are. On the other hand totally agree with you about Faith, Wiliah and Gwen and the Willow cameo.The rest - well guess we're here for different things although I do agree about the questions Jasmine poses and Fred being a badass but not the Angel snog and Gunn's line although not the Deus ex Jasmina it reacts to.
yea, it’s a weird season!
@@5x5Takes That we can agree on.
Season 7 of Buffy is easily my least favourite season in the entire Buffyverse. Season 4 of Angel is often bad, but at least it's entertaining. Season 7 of Buffy (the first 7 or so episodes aside) is bad AND boring, which to me is unforgiveable.
Gwen... I think she almost gets along too well once the initial conflicts are solved. So she ends up lacking differentiation.
All the characters bring different emotions / personalities to the game (some that we don't necessarily like).
Gwen was kinda cool, but she may have needed more edge... Or a stronger reason to be part of Team Angel (like a larger shared mission with more setup)
Connor... Always risky introducing a new main character taht alters the overall dynamic.
He was just not likeable as Angel's son.
You know what comes after Angel season 4? I hope this means you’re currently working your way through it.
The worst season of Angel.
@@keshaponso2034 Season 5 is the worst? You sir, are a blasphemous heretic.
i’ve seen the show 4? 5 times?
@@5x5Takes I was just expressing excitement over my presumption that since you covered Season 4 that Season 5 might be next for you. I suppose I could’ve worded that a bit more coherently.
@@blornblad4381 oh! i see what you mean :) i just wanted to clarify that it’s not my first watch thru. and yea, i’m sure i have some s5 opinions worth sharing (here’s one: i think spike’s arc in it is great)
Fantastic video ❤
Personally I hated the jasmine storyline, personally my least favorite arc of the buffyverse
I wonder how much of Connor's flaws as a character can be chalked up to the actor. I feel terrible saying this because he's a person, and also an actor I grew to enjoy very much but that's kind of the point - I enjoyed him as Pete in Mad Men, where he's very... Connor. He has some kind of unlikeable vibe, like he doesn't fit in any scene he's in, he's too officious, he's trying to act like the people around him but can't do it. And it feels silly to call that "a flaw" because that feature is pretty obviously crucial to both Connor and Pete's characters when you think about it! But it works too well, as an audience we don't only see why he's unlikeable to the other characters, we find him equally if not more unlikeable and that makes him unpleasant to watch. But in Mad Men they somehow turned it into something endearing and Angel never really does. Like you I loved moments at the end like the reveal that he saw Jasmine's true face the whole time but it's not comparable to the seasons-long process of making him actually enjoyable Mad Men did.
Probably part of the difference is that in Angel Connor is interacting with charismatic heroes (however flawed they might be), in a show about charismatic heroism (however much it may question the concept) so his sniveling awkwardness just stands out and feels unforgiveable given the stakes. In Mad Men he interacts with charismatic anti-heroes who the show is invested in gradually revealing as total frauds each pathetic in their own way - and conversely gives Pete traits that fit with his social awkwardness in the setting but read to a modern audience as redeeming, almost revolutionary virtues (his fairly progressive opinions for a person of his milieu). In other words, Mad Men tries to undermine the concept of charisma=value and this probably gives them the tools/incentive to make Pete likeable despite (even because of) his lack of charisma in ways that are completely out of Angel's repertoire. Maybe there's also something about his role in the story - in Mad Men he's originally set up as a minor villain, an inferior rival to Don Draper and a creepy suitor to Peggy, so him being awkward and unlikeable feels satisfying. In Angel Connor is Angel's son, ripped from him in the most traumatic of circumstances and twisted into being his enemy. Him being unlikeable on top of that leaves the audience conflicted about what they should root for.
Anyway, all that to say: the fact Vincent Kartheiser played such similar roles with such a similar vibe at the beginning makes me wonder how much of that vibe just came from him/his acting at the time.
So, massive caveat that I haven't watch Mad Men, so don't have that point of comparison, but I felt like, in the brief moments that Connor was allowed by the writing to be not-snivelling, he was likeable (at least to me). While there are moments of this in Season 4, I think this is most apparent in his Season 5 episodes. The Connor of the new reality is really likeable.
To an extent, you can also see the potential he had in Season 3, as that broken boy with who still had a chance at non-magical redemption. It was Season 4 that really broke him and needed magical resetting.
I don't know how much blame you can put on Vincent Kartheiser, at the end of the day he's only playing the character that's been written for him and so much of what makes Connor unlikeable IMO is in the script. That's on the writers, not the actor.
I have met him. All I can say is, casting in the Whedonverse is erm….very en point?
I didn't care too much for season 4 when it originally aired, but on rewatch I found that it actually has a lot of good stuff in there if you can block out Connor and over look what they did to Cordelia. Also, I never could stand Glen. Her backstory is too similar to Rogue from X-Men, and she didn't the overall mood of the show. As far as the worst season of both shows, that would definitely go to Buffy Season 6. I find it unwatchable, and I've tried to rewatch it on several occasions. Marti Noxon didn't understand the show even though she had written good episodes prior to becoming the show runner.
The best season of the angel is it off an argument in the game differently. Anyway, see you next time you have a thing I watch the watchOS.
Season four of the greatest. I don’t know what anybody says the five angels the greatest ever positive best rating came from Andrew angel sent from the desk from
The only bad thing about Angel Season 4 is Connor and Cordy as far as I'm concerned. But I mostly ignore any scene that has Connor in it, so it's not a problem for me.
why the hell am i watching a video about a show i literally know nothin about
i started skipping every scene with connor and significantly enjoyed it a lot more. This might be an unfair comparison but Damian Wayne from Batman I feel is what they were trying to get to with Connor. Damian goes through a lot of character growth and is portrayed with charisma and humour. Connor nearly made me quit the show.
You raise some compelling points about S4 but it’s irredeemable and brings forward the more frustrating aspects from season 3. So maybe not right to just say season 4 alone is bad, because some of its themes were present before and it just continues down a road no one wanted to see the penultimate season take.
It’s like you took a detour and instead of still ending up at Chuck-e-cheese after a long and twisting road you end up at the dentist for a wisdom teeth extraction. It sucks all the energy from the show and just leaves you irritated.
So, sure there are points that don’t absolutely suck. But it was a wrecking ball to the series and season 5 was such a twist you just feel robbed and then the show ends
Season 4 definitely has bright spots, but man what a train wreck of a season overall, and deserves most of the hate it gets.
The worst part of season 4 is how the narrative failed Cordelia. Like her arc in yhe first three seasons is so amazing. Then its just shelved. My bitterness over Joss ruining Cordelia out of spite for Charisma makes me dislike the season. Because Cordelia was one of my favorite characters. But all in all season 4 wasn't bad bad. I wish the story had gone a different way with Cordelia and Conner. But it is what it is. And Jazmine was a great pay off for the season.
Buffy Season 6 and Angel Season 4 are considered the worst seasons of their shows and in my opinion they are but they are still very great Seasons I love how dark both of their seasons get and both of their seasons test both of Buffy and Angel characters like never before maybe arguably more than they were tested in their respective final seasons
Season 6 isn't universally considered to be the worst I've heard debates between 1, 6 and 7 (and sometimes even season 4)
Season 6 isn't universally considered to be the worst I've heard debates between 1, 6 and 7 (and sometimes even season 4)
Season 6 isn't universally considered to be the worst I've heard debates between 1, 6 and 7 (and sometimes even season 4)
Season 6 isn't universally considered to be the worst I've heard debates between 1, 6 and 7 (and sometimes even season 4)
Season 6 isn't universally considered to be the worst I've heard debates between 1, 6 and 7 (and sometimes even season 4)
Season 4 has great set up but half way in feels sabotaged.
Like Weadon didn't get something he wanted behind the scenes and started to tank the season.
And why is it parker. 0:12
In the defense of s4 haters, if you served season 4 as a meal, it'd a completely fine and mostly enjoyable dinner... until you put what was done to Cordy (and Charisma) on it, which for a lot of people feels like someone dumped a bunch of [censored] and [censored] on top of some [censored] [censored], and so when they think about the season now, that's all they can remember. 😂 (It's me, I'm they.)
Angel seasons are also not as dinstinct and structured as Buffy seasons, so I often have a harder time distinguishing them for each other. Like, logically, I know that Spin the Bottle, Faith coming back and Fred the Survival Hero happens in s4, but the association is just not as strong in my mind. Well, at least not as much as the Thing that Also Happens, I suppose.
...Okay, maybe the problem is in fact in my head, and how I can't stop thinking about The Bad. 🤣
yeeaaaaaaaa
Angel season 4 is a 9 with a giant Cordy f#cking Connor sized anchor around its neck that drags it down to a 5.
ATS s4 Angelus > BTVS s2 Angelus
tell me why!
@@5x5Takes you've said why! Lol
But, in all seriousness, like Angel, he's more fleshed out. Also, in season 2, we only saw him basically targeting Buffy (and Spike to an extent) plus starting an apocalypse. Basically, he was bitchy. In Angel, he was still bitchy, we saw him manipulate people, we saw how sick and brutal he could be towards his victims, even if he just talks about it. We also saw how much he HATES Angel, especially in the mind trip. And this is minor, but his laugh at the end of "awakening(?)," his laugh was so creepy and evil and awesome.
And if none of that convinces you, then my final argument is, "Uh-oh! Vampire with a gun!" I fucking love that line!
But one from Buffy the Vampire Slayer from Buffy the Vampire Slayer come up on the channel right now with the angel and that that’s proof because that is this the best season for me to leave that’s the best the best season ever and it really went up. That’s why I always seem to go up and got canceled prematurely. I would say that they want to make the seat WB angel of death of a show. I know that makes me feel icky to.
Huh?
I just didn't like the Connor cordeila story and the love triangle with gun Fred and wes apart from that I thought it was OK we needed more cordeila
It *is* good.
Totally disagree that Charisma's acting was bad in this season, it seems like you're buying into the negative Whedon hype when he really wasn't all that involved in the season. The storyline changed to include Jasmine after Charisma got pregnant and couldn't do the action scenes, she was always supposed to be bad. I also really enjoyed Conner's character and similar to Dawn never found his character annoying. I thought Season 4 was great , just my two cents .
idk, she comes across very wooden. and i can’t buy her as mwahahaha evil. it just doesn’t work for me
@@5x5Takes I think that was the point. She acted a perfect cartoon villain. Notably in the comic standoff with Willow.
@@lenr112 to me it was hammy and uninteresting. just didn’t work for me
You're wrong. There are direct reports that he was involved enough to threaten Charisma.
@@DisWriter From Wikipedia Whedon would write and direct only one episode of the season, "Spin the Bottle", because of his commitments to the first season of Firefly and the final season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
Strongly disagree with your entire take. I watched Angel for the first time and i loved season 1-3 but season 4 was horrible. The reveal of Cordelia being posessed happened too late. She spent the entire season either flirting with Angels son and that was really uncomortable to watch, or she spent the season in a coma.
Pretty much the entire season was a love drama between Angel, his son, Cordelia and Wesley, Fred and Gunn and it got tiresome really fast.
Angels son is the most unlikable character i have ever seen. After it was revealed that Angel did not kill Holtz, he didn't even care that he was lied to. The guy was just an angry emo just for the sake of being an angry emo and why was this little annoying *** in the main cast, but Lorne wasn't untill episode 17?
Literally the only good thing about this season was Wesley character growth, Angelus returning and the beast that no one was able to defeat.
I honestly have no interest in watching season 5 after finishing season 1-4 because the show lost everything that made it good. I watched season 1-4 in 2 weeks and a month later have not tried to watch season 5.
EXTREMELY fair
No, it is not.
I had a crazy theory that part of season 4 was inspired by a conspiracy theory of 9/11. The conspiracy theory is that 9/11 was engineered to create a peaceful new world order. In terms of the show, the actions of the Beast are 9/11, and Jasmine would be the face of the new world order.
I don’t know if that’s true but I watched Season 4 as it aired and the political environment was tense and toxic on a level that I thought the Jasmine arc captures perfectly. The original broadcast of “Orpheus” was disrupted by the presidential address announcing the US invasion of Iraq (right as Connor was about to stab Angel.) I remember feeling that the dread in this season reflected the real world perfectly in the same way the new version of Battlestar Galactica did. Tension, fear, conformity the vague sense of apocalypse while meanwhile having stupid love triangles and jobs and all. I always loved season 4 and I was sorry to hear that it was a nightmare to make.
we need person of interest
me too