I watch B5 reactions to relive the moment I first saw it. I love this show and seeing others love it, too, makes me happy. Though when I saw Morden's head and Vir waving for the first time I jumped out of my seat danced around. But I was a kid.
Re: everyone mentioning that Season 4 was compressed, yes, but that doesn't really kick in until much later. The Shadow War was always planned to end in the first third of this Season.
The dialogue between the Minister of Intelligence and Londo has one of the greatest quotes ever ... which can easily explain to you why PRECISE LANGUAGE / DEFINITIONS MATTERS: *_"If you can't say what you're meaning ... you can never mean what you're saying. The details are everything!"_*
"It's numbers... cold unsympathetic numbers" Marcus has some pretty great lines. Londo may not have known, but he gave Vir exactly what he wanted. "A Vorlon said, understanding is a three edged sword - your side, their side, and the truth" This is a great Sheridan (and Delenn) moment. I love what JMS did here. "It was the dawn of the third age of Mankind" Remember that's what SInclair says in the season 1 intro? I really like this episode a lot. It makes perfect sense that the younger races could never fight their way out of this. They had to *think* their way out, and with a little help from a friend they did it! Be seeing you!
The "three-edged sword" is a good thing to remember for real life, because typically people give you only two options to choose between ... but there are always more than that. You might have to "think creatively" and/or "go against your own wishes/preferences" to find them, but the point is that they are there.
Now you know what the stakes were all along. Go back and watch episodes like Deathwalker. Or the Geometry of Shadows ("Green! Purple!"). You will see the themes of slow, deliberate, planned growth vs the chaos of evolution. So many episodes are about this theme. Order vs Chaos. It isn't about one way or the other. It's about balance in most instances, with other times where one path or the other is the right one. Now you know. An knowing is (only) half of the battle!
The first time going into this episode, I was somewhat shocked and disappointed that the Shadow War got wrapped up. We’re in the Third Age now, and I think you will find it a most interesting and intriguing time. Still lots of fantastic story ahead!
The reason it wasn't a season finale is because the show was grtting cancelled, season 5 wasnt going to happen. JMS didnt want to leave the show incomplete, so he moved up the timetable which meant shortening the shadow war. He wrote every episode of S4 himself to make sure everything got in there, which resulted in it being the best season in the show, which as a result got them the 5th season after all. Its kinda ironic.
The war ending here makes more sense the longer you think about it and rewatch. It takes the idea of Babylon 5 as a place of diplomacy being able to solve the galaxy's problem and applied it. This was the most B5 way to end the war, I think
He IS a horrible person ... because he doesnt think about the consequences of his actions and only thinks about his own side/race. Kinda like the CIA/US State department destabilising/regime-changing other nations and causing war and suffering "over there" ... while americans think they are the best nation on the planet.
Ending the Great War, which was first teased in season one, early in the 4th season is an immensely original (if not gutsy) TV decision by JMS. Completely unexpected (despite him always stating he was going to have an 'Act 5' aftermath). Like a lot of viewers i was a bit stunned originally, but ive come to seriously respect, and like, the decision.
When I first watched this one, I was disappointed at the ending. It seemed anti-climatic. But then I came to understand the show better, and realize, the Shadow War is not what the show is about. The show is much more than that.
The show was about the younger races growing up. And now they leave the parental home and are responsible for themselves. And the older races learning that they have to let their children go.
Exactly the same reaction I had until I watched it again and realized that as Lorien said, it wasn't about a military victory but a philosophical victory.
A whole lot of people had the same problem. I definitely have had that conversation several times over the years. Fortunately the next three episodes did a good job of preparing us for what else was to come.
“You are the beginning of the story, and the middle of the story, and the end of the story…that creates the next great story!” JMS was put in a bad position with the threat of possible cancellation, but by the end of Season 5, you realize what he did with the overall story arc.
You may or may not know this but this episode is very reminiscent of the end of Return of the King. The elves went on their ships into the mist or unknown land, leaving the humans, and hobbits, to make their own way instead of being influenced by those were beyond in lives and understanding. We were left to fight ourselves instead of looking for divine intervention.
1:14 According to an old interview Mr. Peter Jurasik took inspiration from Hungarian immigrants for his iconic voice. Due to the language differences it is common for this demographic to have a hypothetical statement and add "yes?" with a rise in the tone at the end instead of using the English sentence structure for questions. This, combined with a forced diaphragm is getting you close to it. E.g. You've must been practicing to sound like me, Mr Mega, yeS??
I think I read/heard somewhere that the reason Coriana VI had six billion inhabitants was that that was Earth's rough population size when this episode aired, so it would emotionally connect with viewers. What an episode, huh? Massive, unorthodox, surprising. The third age has started now. Let's see how well we do on our own...
While Morden got what he deserved....he is actually quite a tragic figure in the story. In the canon Trilogies its revealed that Morden's wife and daughter were killed in a jumpgate accident or sabotage (I forget which). It absolutely broke him as you might assume, and when the Shadows were woken by the Icarus crew, the Shadows told Morden that his family hadn't been killed per se, ...they just had their molecules scattered into hyperspace AND that through the Shadow's super-advanced technology they could restore the physical forms and return his family to him if he would just faithfully serve them and their agenda. Anyone who's lost a child and spouse to a tragedy could well understand the temptation that Morden was presented with. He's still an a*****e, but there is also a bit of poignancy here that can't be overlooked.
As I recall, Morden was ready to kill himself when the Icarus mission came up. He joined the crew and pretended nothing had happened but he was so artificially smiley and pleasant that he creeped the hell out of the crew. Anna Sheridan was the only one who tried to interact with him on a personal level.
@@sdfried4877 Been a few years since I read the books but I believe you are correct. I wish more people knew about the Trilogies. What we see in the TV show is literally only the tip of a vast iceberg. I remember being particularly blown away finding out that the only reason that Sheridan's mission to Za'ha'dum was successful was due to Galen the Technomage who was also on the planet at the time. Vorlon tech (Whitestar) would have never been allowed even close to the surface of the planet if Galen hadn't messed with the orbital defenses.
Peter Jurasik really goes very Eastern European for his accent, which is mainly shifting emphasis to different parts of the words he is speaking. Instead of saying "my good friend" the emphasis hits on the first two letters "MY GOod FRiend"
Don't forget to roll your "r"s, gesticulate energetically, be bombastic, and occasionally draw out the end of the word, "AHhhh!" "YEsss!" Most of all always be thinking - Wine Women and Song!
it probably would be if they didnt think this is the last season - the station b5 was airing on was going out of business so they condensed what was planned for s4 and s5 into s4, since it seemed there will not be a s5
I kinda had the opposite realisation about the Shadows, And indeed the wider question of them both. That it's not that the Vorlons were bad guys so much as they were both good and bad, As are many things in B5, Then it hit me that the Shadows are in the same way not the bad guys, But rather a bit of both. Those thoughts had been growing ever since Sheridan went to Za'Ha'Dum and Kosh 2 arrived on the scene, but it was this episode that finalized and confirmed it, Both wanted to do the best they could for the younger races, But as the saying goes "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" 😄👍
@@Markus117d I'm used to seeing the Vorlons as the bad guys because the younger races want to chart their own path, leaving the circle. That's closer to what the Shadows want, so the idea isn't anathema to their plans. There is no good guys between those two indeed. But I still love the part in "A Thin Veneer" where the Federation sends an ambassador, the Shadows expect a human... and run into someone they consider a First One. (I think a Metron?) The Vorlons, meanwhile, just see the circlebroken and freak out. But yes, the road to hell is the perfect saying.
@@walkir2662 The thing is that NEITHER of their "concepts" are bad, but rather that at this time they both had become EXTREMISTS. - you NEED order to have a somewhat stable society and because order makes life easier ... - you ALSO NEED unpredictability, change and danger to keep your brain thinking at all and to be able to survive in a universe that is unfair (cf. Marcus' wisdom in one of the episodes)
Meester Reacts... My goood and dear friend. I am truly overjoyed that have embarked on theese jouurneey, to visit the wonderous woorld of Babylon Five, and reememberr to always bee careful with your... Perrsonal appendages when playing cards.
You probably know this already, but B5 was as good as cancelled, so JMS had to compact the story to make sure it was told. That's why this season can feel rushed. Then TNT picked it up at the last minute and we got a 5th season.
Lorien explaining Immortality to Ivonnava makes him seem SO sympathetic to me. One of the BEST scenes IMO. As far as your title goes, I believe this WAS (originally) the season finale! But Season 5 was NOT being renewed, so JMS was FORCED to "smoosh" his plans for Seasons 4 & 5 into Season 4. (Making Season 4 GREAT but feeling a little "rushed".) Everything for the REST of this season, was what JMS had originally planned for Season 5. When (eventually) Season 5 was approved (near the END of Season 4) JMS had to hurry and write out an ADDITIONAL synopsis for a NEW Season.
no, originally, this was not going to be the season finale... another episode, much later in the season, was going to be -- the Shadow War was always going to end early in the season
This season was when you realized the Shadows were not this evil dark race but a race with a different ideology compared to the Vorlons who were supposed to stand for the light and good. But like so much in life its all just shades of grey.
The show was on the brink of cancellation. So JMS had to wrap up some things early. Much of the stuff in Season 4 was intended for Season 5, originally.
@@Nikioko Somewhat, yes. I think we'll need to reconvene here in about a year when we can talk further without spoilers! Or... who's nearest the end? Mild Fuzz. Or one of Medusa's Crusade vids, maybe, but a bit off topic!
@@DeonTain Maybe 8 or 9, but then, what would you add in the gaps that you think is missing, that's what I can't work out. Even turning this one into a two-parter; what would you add? It'd probably be better in the modern streaming format where you don't have to make each episode the same length and could baybe stretch it to a full hour.
It is a bit of a tiny remote and could have been a bit bigger, but apparently Centauri have a thing for "tiny devices" ... with Carthagia's tiny bell and this button.
I keep telling folks: don't listen to what people say about Babylon 5. Just watch it. If you don't like it, that's fine. But you might. Give it a chance.
The ONLY thing to criticise about it is ... the cheap sets. Everything else - writing, actors, story - is 10/10 perfect, because "everything" is very very tight and "referenced later on".
This could've been a season finale, or at least close to it. But when it looked like Babylon 5 would end after S4, JMS had to scramble to squeeze conclusions to the major story arcs into one season of television. Specifically, the Shadow War and the resolution to the situation on Earth. So the Shadow War got the short end of the stick in comparison, but the ending was still quite epic. To this day, I love this era of TV sci-fi. Between B5 and DS9, there were so many epic space battles and fleet shots of a size and scope that are IMO unmatched to this day.
I don't think it ever would have been a season finale, you couldn't drag the Shadow War on for another 22 episodes without becoming repetitive. Remember asking that the Shadows are merely a metaphor- The Coming of Shadows isn't just about them specifically, it's about the shadow of war, the shadow of oppression and fear, the shadow of chaos, and shadowy organisations.
@@simongiles9749 Certainly not the full 22 episodes. Info seems to be a bit iffy on that, but maybe half of the season would've been dedicated to this story arc. The ending for this conflict would've been the same, but maybe there could've been more time for preparation.
@@Nergalsama01 It would have been nice to spend more time with Cartagia, I think. But I was pondering this. Both Whatever Happened to Mr Garibaldi and Th Long Night manage to fit in long scenes where there are essentially two people talking, and they don't feel at all rushed. The difference is, I think, that here B5 has slid fully along the scale from episodic to serialised, and so what we haven't had is an Episode About A Thing for a while. Each one has been more like a modern show and advanced bits of plotline
@@Nikioko I probably knew that at one point, but I haven't watched a full B5 episode in a few years. Just what is shown in people's reaction videos. Nicely done.
I loved that the Shadow War was ended by philosophy. A deep descent into the reasons behind the conflict demonstrated that it was unnecessary and to no profit of the younger races. If the soldiers do not wish to fight the generals can do little.
How did Londo know about what Vir wanted? Did he have a listening devide, did Vir tell him..or did Morden complain about this? In case of the latter...can you imagine Londo´s reaction? "Oooh my dear good friend Mr Morden...I promise you I will talk to him about it in time"
@@SirMarshalHaig In-universe, it's a happy coincidence. Cartagia had cut off the heads of his ministers, so it seems to be a normal thing for the Centauri.
How is this not a season finale? Word came down that B5 wasn't going to get a season 5... so JMS had to accelerate some things and they happened earlier than originally planned. This probably WAS supposed to be a season finale... or at the very least (no spoliers) been at the mid-point of S4 (episode 12) instead of episode 6.
This episode has 5 out of my top 10 Babylon 5 moments. Strangely it is just top10 episode but not top 5. For my feeling it is a bit to compressed. Otherwise excellent stuff.
Having loads of space battles to pad the run time over several episodes would be "meaningless padding". It is fully condensed and that is great. The first two episodes of Ahsoka are being criticised for having loads of "slowly walking towards somewhere" many MANY times.
The way i understood it is that Babylon 5 was going to be cancelled after season 4 so things had to be rushed. I heard that the original plan was for all of season 4 was going to be the shadow war. But TNT picked up Babylon 5 and we got season 5 and the tv movies.
It's too bad that JMS didn't know that B5 was going to get a 5th season in his 5 year story so S4 is condensed and a roller coaster of a ride. I believe this would have been a S4 season ender had JMS known he had 5.
it's not the season finale, because when they were making season four, they didn't know they would have a season 5, so season 4 is half of what season 5 was suppose to be (and thus, season 5 is kind a the weak season, because they finished most of the stories in this season)
This episode was never going to be the S4 finale. The uncertainty over whether there would be a S5 accelerated events by 3 episodes. What extra bits we would’ve had in those episodes I do not know, perhaps there are clues in one of the published books of script notes but I doubt it as I expect I would have heard a fan mention it on fb.
For me, one of the best moments in the entire series was when Vir got to wave to Mr. Morden's severed head on the pike.
forever a classic moment!
I watch B5 reactions to relive the moment I first saw it. I love this show and seeing others love it, too, makes me happy. Though when I saw Morden's head and Vir waving for the first time I jumped out of my seat danced around. But I was a kid.
Vir, the only one who actually got what he wanted, possibly because he also knew who he was.
And never had a desire for power or revenge.
And what he wanted.
Everyone got what they asked for, but yes he's the only one who actually liked getting it.
@@elaine_of_shalott6587 Well, Delenn asked Morden to get out, which worked out reasonably well! 😉
Sadly, it only cost killing the one who is already dead
Re: everyone mentioning that Season 4 was compressed, yes, but that doesn't really kick in until much later. The Shadow War was always planned to end in the first third of this Season.
The dialogue between the Minister of Intelligence and Londo has one of the greatest quotes ever ... which can easily explain to you why PRECISE LANGUAGE / DEFINITIONS MATTERS:
*_"If you can't say what you're meaning ... you can never mean what you're saying. The details are everything!"_*
Londo Molari is not the enemy you want, and despite all of his evil and darkness, I have to respect that he was willing to die for his world.
Peter Jurasik once said in an interview that his way of getting into character and the accent was to simply say, "ahhh, meeester Garibaldi!"
"It's numbers... cold unsympathetic numbers" Marcus has some pretty great lines.
Londo may not have known, but he gave Vir exactly what he wanted.
"A Vorlon said, understanding is a three edged sword - your side, their side, and the truth" This is a great Sheridan (and Delenn) moment. I love what JMS did here.
"It was the dawn of the third age of Mankind" Remember that's what SInclair says in the season 1 intro?
I really like this episode a lot. It makes perfect sense that the younger races could never fight their way out of this. They had to *think* their way out, and with a little help from a friend they did it!
Be seeing you!
The "three-edged sword" is a good thing to remember for real life, because typically people give you only two options to choose between ... but there are always more than that. You might have to "think creatively" and/or "go against your own wishes/preferences" to find them, but the point is that they are there.
Now you know what the stakes were all along. Go back and watch episodes like Deathwalker. Or the Geometry of Shadows ("Green! Purple!"). You will see the themes of slow, deliberate, planned growth vs the chaos of evolution. So many episodes are about this theme. Order vs Chaos. It isn't about one way or the other. It's about balance in most instances, with other times where one path or the other is the right one.
Now you know. An knowing is (only) half of the battle!
Aaahhhhhhhh Mr Morden!
Love that greeting so much.
Season 4 is packed like a piñata of awesomeness.
The first time going into this episode, I was somewhat shocked and disappointed that the Shadow War got wrapped up. We’re in the Third Age now, and I think you will find it a most interesting and intriguing time. Still lots of fantastic story ahead!
The reason it wasn't a season finale is because the show was grtting cancelled, season 5 wasnt going to happen.
JMS didnt want to leave the show incomplete, so he moved up the timetable which meant shortening the shadow war.
He wrote every episode of S4 himself to make sure everything got in there, which resulted in it being the best season in the show, which as a result got them the 5th season after all. Its kinda ironic.
The war ending here makes more sense the longer you think about it and rewatch. It takes the idea of Babylon 5 as a place of diplomacy being able to solve the galaxy's problem and applied it.
This was the most B5 way to end the war, I think
... especially with the banger episodes that follow, the resolution of the Garibaldi plot and eath.
Londo is a very tragic figure. He is responsible for atrocities. But he’s not a horrible person.
Yes he is, but hes also many other things. Thats the beauty of his character
He IS a horrible person ... because he doesnt think about the consequences of his actions and only thinks about his own side/race.
Kinda like the CIA/US State department destabilising/regime-changing other nations and causing war and suffering "over there" ... while americans think they are the best nation on the planet.
Ending the Great War, which was first teased in season one, early in the 4th season is an immensely original (if not gutsy) TV decision by JMS. Completely unexpected (despite him always stating he was going to have an 'Act 5' aftermath). Like a lot of viewers i was a bit stunned originally, but ive come to seriously respect, and like, the decision.
The whole "Centauri plot" later on is a bit unfinished, just like the looming telepath war that is teased the whole time.
When I first watched this one, I was disappointed at the ending. It seemed anti-climatic. But then I came to understand the show better, and realize, the Shadow War is not what the show is about. The show is much more than that.
But I did love what Londo did
The show was about the younger races growing up. And now they leave the parental home and are responsible for themselves. And the older races learning that they have to let their children go.
Exactly the same reaction I had until I watched it again and realized that as Lorien said, it wasn't about a military victory but a philosophical victory.
A whole lot of people had the same problem. I definitely have had that conversation several times over the years. Fortunately the next three episodes did a good job of preparing us for what else was to come.
“You are the beginning of the story, and the middle of the story, and the end of the story…that creates the next great story!”
JMS was put in a bad position with the threat of possible cancellation, but by the end of Season 5, you realize what he did with the overall story arc.
You may or may not know this but this episode is very reminiscent of the end of Return of the King. The elves went on their ships into the mist or unknown land, leaving the humans, and hobbits, to make their own way instead of being influenced by those were beyond in lives and understanding. We were left to fight ourselves instead of looking for divine intervention.
And Vir as Sam Gamgee.
Indeed! And I feel like there's another episode later that also nicely fits that theme... :) you probably know which one I mean
@@mayra3277 Yup 🙂
1:14 According to an old interview Mr. Peter Jurasik took inspiration from Hungarian immigrants for his iconic voice. Due to the language differences it is common for this demographic to have a hypothetical statement and add "yes?" with a rise in the tone at the end instead of using the English sentence structure for questions. This, combined with a forced diaphragm is getting you close to it.
E.g. You've must been practicing to sound like me, Mr Mega, yeS??
I think I read/heard somewhere that the reason Coriana VI had six billion inhabitants was that that was Earth's rough population size when this episode aired, so it would emotionally connect with viewers.
What an episode, huh? Massive, unorthodox, surprising. The third age has started now. Let's see how well we do on our own...
"You cannot win this war through force. You must understand your way out of this."
"But it still HELPS to have a gargantuan ARMADA available too."
@@sharkdentures3247 Against the Shadows AND the Vorlons? Good luck.
While Morden got what he deserved....he is actually quite a tragic figure in the story. In the canon Trilogies its revealed that Morden's wife and daughter were killed in a jumpgate accident or sabotage (I forget which). It absolutely broke him as you might assume, and when the Shadows were woken by the Icarus crew, the Shadows told Morden that his family hadn't been killed per se,
...they just had their molecules scattered into hyperspace AND that through the Shadow's super-advanced technology they could restore the physical forms and return his family to him if he would just faithfully serve them and their agenda. Anyone who's lost a child and spouse to a tragedy could well understand the temptation that Morden was presented with. He's still an a*****e, but there is also a bit of poignancy here that can't be overlooked.
Sounds close to what a Sith Lord would use to seduce a Jedi Knight.
The necklace you see him clutching after the Shadows are nuked is meant to be the only part of her ship that wasn't obliterated.
@@chrism7395The necklace holds his wedding ring.
As I recall, Morden was ready to kill himself when the Icarus mission came up. He joined the crew and pretended nothing had happened but he was so artificially smiley and pleasant that he creeped the hell out of the crew. Anna Sheridan was the only one who tried to interact with him on a personal level.
@@sdfried4877 Been a few years since I read the books but I believe you are correct.
I wish more people knew about the Trilogies. What we see in the TV show is literally only the tip of a vast iceberg. I remember being particularly blown away finding out that the only reason that Sheridan's mission to Za'ha'dum was successful was due to Galen the Technomage who was also on the planet at the time. Vorlon tech (Whitestar) would have never been allowed even close to the surface of the planet if Galen hadn't messed with the orbital defenses.
Peter Jurasik really goes very Eastern European for his accent, which is mainly shifting emphasis to different parts of the words he is speaking. Instead of saying "my good friend" the emphasis hits on the first two letters "MY GOod FRiend"
Don't forget to roll your "r"s, gesticulate energetically, be bombastic, and occasionally draw out the end of the word, "AHhhh!" "YEsss!" Most of all always be thinking - Wine Women and Song!
Ok, now we just have to liberate Earth...
it probably would be if they didnt think this is the last season - the station b5 was airing on was going out of business so they condensed what was planned for s4 and s5 into s4, since it seemed there will not be a s5
Ah yes, Corianna VI. An all time favorite.
But nothing beats Vir getting his wish. The island pales in comp
I kinda had the opposite realisation about the Shadows, And indeed the wider question of them both. That it's not that the Vorlons were bad guys so much as they were both good and bad, As are many things in B5, Then it hit me that the Shadows are in the same way not the bad guys, But rather a bit of both. Those thoughts had been growing ever since Sheridan went to Za'Ha'Dum and Kosh 2 arrived on the scene, but it was this episode that finalized and confirmed it, Both wanted to do the best they could for the younger races, But as the saying goes "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" 😄👍
@@Markus117d I'm used to seeing the Vorlons as the bad guys because the younger races want to chart their own path, leaving the circle. That's closer to what the Shadows want, so the idea isn't anathema to their plans.
There is no good guys between those two indeed.
But I still love the part in "A Thin Veneer" where the Federation sends an ambassador, the Shadows expect a human... and run into someone they consider a First One. (I think a Metron?) The Vorlons, meanwhile, just see the circlebroken and freak out.
But yes, the road to hell is the perfect saying.
@@walkir2662 The thing is that NEITHER of their "concepts" are bad, but rather that at this time they both had become EXTREMISTS.
- you NEED order to have a somewhat stable society and because order makes life easier ...
- you ALSO NEED unpredictability, change and danger to keep your brain thinking at all and to be able to survive in a universe that is unfair (cf. Marcus' wisdom in one of the episodes)
Meester Reacts...
My goood and dear friend.
I am truly overjoyed that have embarked on theese jouurneey, to visit the wonderous woorld of Babylon Five, and reememberr to always bee careful with your...
Perrsonal appendages when playing cards.
You probably know this already, but B5 was as good as cancelled, so JMS had to compact the story to make sure it was told. That's why this season can feel rushed. Then TNT picked it up at the last minute and we got a 5th season.
They were fighting cancellation the whole way. Every season.
This episode was always supposed to come partway through the season though; it just would have taken a couple more episodes to get there.
It was recently revealed that there was a higher-up in WB that kept B5 projects from being made. This "obstacle" is now gone.
@@Muck006Was it Michigan J Frog? It was Michigan J Frog, wasn’t it?
"You must not kill the one who is already dead"..... too late!
He didnt ...
🎉 quite enjoying your infectious enthusiasm Mega.... :)
Lorien explaining Immortality to Ivonnava makes him seem SO sympathetic to me. One of the BEST scenes IMO.
As far as your title goes, I believe this WAS (originally) the season finale! But Season 5 was NOT being renewed, so JMS was FORCED to "smoosh" his plans for Seasons 4 & 5 into Season 4. (Making Season 4 GREAT but feeling a little "rushed".)
Everything for the REST of this season, was what JMS had originally planned for Season 5.
When (eventually) Season 5 was approved (near the END of Season 4) JMS had to hurry and write out an ADDITIONAL synopsis for a NEW Season.
"Only those whose lives are brief can imagine that love is eternal. You should embrace that remarkable illusion."
@@miller-joel Rather poetic. Dotcha think?
@@sharkdentures3247 Is it by accident
that he says this to Ivanova, of all people?
@@miller-joel Naw. He could tell that Ivonnava is in desperate need of some Lovin'.
("I volunteer as tribute!") lol
no, originally, this was not going to be the season finale... another episode, much later in the season, was going to be -- the Shadow War was always going to end early in the season
This season was when you realized the Shadows were not this evil dark race but a race with a different ideology compared to the Vorlons who were supposed to stand for the light and good. But like so much in life its all just shades of grey.
11:46 John "Nuke Em" Sheridan
We used to call him Johnny Nuke-Boy.
Londo "Nuke Em" Mollari
Of course i will follow your B5 reaction journey!
The show was on the brink of cancellation. So JMS had to wrap up some things early. Much of the stuff in Season 4 was intended for Season 5, originally.
Not really, I think this gets overstated.
@@simongiles9749 Some filler episodes were moved to Season 5. And Season 5 is quite stretched.
@@Nikioko Somewhat, yes. I think we'll need to reconvene here in about a year when we can talk further without spoilers!
Or... who's nearest the end? Mild Fuzz. Or one of Medusa's Crusade vids, maybe, but a bit off topic!
@@simongiles9749 If JMS had known that he would get a 5th season, I suspect this would have been closer to middle of the season.
@@DeonTain Maybe 8 or 9, but then, what would you add in the gaps that you think is missing, that's what I can't work out. Even turning this one into a two-parter; what would you add?
It'd probably be better in the modern streaming format where you don't have to make each episode the same length and could baybe stretch it to a full hour.
10:30 uh oh there goes Sicily
One of the finest moments in the series is when Londo clicks his remote....
It is a bit of a tiny remote and could have been a bit bigger, but apparently Centauri have a thing for "tiny devices" ... with Carthagia's tiny bell and this button.
I keep telling folks: don't listen to what people say about Babylon 5. Just watch it. If you don't like it, that's fine. But you might. Give it a chance.
The ONLY thing to criticise about it is ... the cheap sets. Everything else - writing, actors, story - is 10/10 perfect, because "everything" is very very tight and "referenced later on".
The Vorlons and Shadows are lawful neutral and chaotic neutral.
Started off as lawful/chaotic good but shifted to neutral over thousands of years of tribalism.
Actually they are EVIL ... because they are EXTREMISTS and punish disobedience by death.
This could've been a season finale, or at least close to it. But when it looked like Babylon 5 would end after S4, JMS had to scramble to squeeze conclusions to the major story arcs into one season of television. Specifically, the Shadow War and the resolution to the situation on Earth. So the Shadow War got the short end of the stick in comparison, but the ending was still quite epic.
To this day, I love this era of TV sci-fi. Between B5 and DS9, there were so many epic space battles and fleet shots of a size and scope that are IMO unmatched to this day.
I don't think it ever would have been a season finale, you couldn't drag the Shadow War on for another 22 episodes without becoming repetitive.
Remember asking that the Shadows are merely a metaphor- The Coming of Shadows isn't just about them specifically, it's about the shadow of war, the shadow of oppression and fear, the shadow of chaos, and shadowy organisations.
@@simongiles9749 Certainly not the full 22 episodes. Info seems to be a bit iffy on that, but maybe half of the season would've been dedicated to this story arc. The ending for this conflict would've been the same, but maybe there could've been more time for preparation.
@@Nergalsama01 It would have been nice to spend more time with Cartagia, I think.
But I was pondering this. Both Whatever Happened to Mr Garibaldi and Th Long Night manage to fit in long scenes where there are essentially two people talking, and they don't feel at all rushed.
The difference is, I think, that here B5 has slid fully along the scale from episodic to serialised, and so what we haven't had is an Episode About A Thing for a while. Each one has been more like a modern show and advanced bits of plotline
Peter Jurasik has to watch this one. Make it happen, Internet.
The episode is frakking awesome, but I was a bit underwhelmed, that the Shadow/Vorlon war ended so soon. I think, we need more of that.
An A for Centauri cosplay. Boo for sound going out at two minutes 45.😊
Welcome to the Third Age!
The island with the Shadow ships is Ylicis. 😆
LOL. It took me a few seconds to understand you had just spelled Sicily backwards. Why? I don't know. Superstition?
@@robertdendooven7258The image for Selini is basically a flipped map of Sicily.
@@robertdendooven7258 In the picture, there is a mirrored version of Sicily. We even have the Strait of Messina and the tip of Calabria.
@@Nikioko I probably knew that at one point, but I haven't watched a full B5 episode in a few years. Just what is shown in people's reaction videos. Nicely done.
I loved that the Shadow War was ended by philosophy. A deep descent into the reasons behind the conflict demonstrated that it was unnecessary and to no profit of the younger races.
If the soldiers do not wish to fight the generals can do little.
How did Londo know about what Vir wanted? Did he have a listening devide, did Vir tell him..or did Morden complain about this?
In case of the latter...can you imagine Londo´s reaction? "Oooh my dear good friend Mr Morden...I promise you I will talk to him about it in time"
Londo knew Vir hated Morden.
@@miller-joel Yes but the head on the pike is rather specific.
@@SirMarshalHaig Probably because jms was the writer, and had planted that way back in s2.
@@miller-joel I´m not talkin about the writing, I talk about the in-universe way for Londo to know what Vir wanted.
@@SirMarshalHaig In-universe, it's a happy coincidence.
Cartagia had cut off the heads of his ministers, so it seems to be a normal thing for the Centauri.
How is this not a season finale? Word came down that B5 wasn't going to get a season 5... so JMS had to accelerate some things and they happened earlier than originally planned. This probably WAS supposed to be a season finale... or at the very least (no spoliers) been at the mid-point of S4 (episode 12) instead of episode 6.
S4 was indeed compressed but only by about 5 episodes. Episode 17 was originally supposed to be the S4 finale, per JMS.
Londo raging about being played is so good! I felt so uncomfortable watching it. RIP to such a great actor.
Um. Peter Jurasik isn't dead.
@@TheButtonLady Yes, my mistake! One of the precious ones left.
You could not wait, aren't you?
You had to watch right after S04E05😂
This episode has 5 out of my top 10 Babylon 5 moments. Strangely it is just top10 episode but not top 5. For my feeling it is a bit to compressed. Otherwise excellent stuff.
Having loads of space battles to pad the run time over several episodes would be "meaningless padding". It is fully condensed and that is great.
The first two episodes of Ahsoka are being criticised for having loads of "slowly walking towards somewhere" many MANY times.
The way i understood it is that Babylon 5 was going to be cancelled after season 4 so things had to be rushed. I heard that the original plan was for all of season 4 was going to be the shadow war. But TNT picked up Babylon 5 and we got season 5 and the tv movies.
Not quite correct. S4 was indeed compressed but only by about 5 episodes. E17 was originally supposed to be the S4 finale, per JMS.
@@HikaruXavier Thank you I have heard different things over the decade.
It's too bad that JMS didn't know that B5 was going to get a 5th season in his 5 year story so S4 is condensed and a roller coaster of a ride. I believe this would have been a S4 season ender had JMS known he had 5.
@@philipmcfarlane good to know.
One of these days, you'll pull off the hair-do 😂
it's not the season finale, because when they were making season four, they didn't know they would have a season 5, so season 4 is half of what season 5 was suppose to be (and thus, season 5 is kind a the weak season, because they finished most of the stories in this season)
This episode was never going to be the S4 finale. The uncertainty over whether there would be a S5 accelerated events by 3 episodes. What extra bits we would’ve had in those episodes I do not know, perhaps there are clues in one of the published books of script notes but I doubt it as I expect I would have heard a fan mention it on fb.
Season 5 is not weak. It might have a bit more padding at first, but the story continues, and in very important, twisty ways
🔥🔥🔥
Hate to break it to you, Mega, but the Centauri have an EMPIRE and NOT A REPUBLIC!
Rrrroll your rrrrrs! Haha
Now get the hell out of our galaxy!
end one set of problems...
Please never try to talk like Londo. It painful to listen to.
Sometimes the holy ghost just hits you.
@@MegaReacts Don't listen to the Shadows, Londo.
Quiet, you moon faced assassin of joy.