I can't believe you left out the best scene from the episode from this reaction, with Zack in the customs having Bester come in after Londo, and then him making a comment about going to report before anyone else comes through that gate, and how with his luck next one is going to be second coming. And then the next people coming through the gate are three Elvis impersonators (aka the three kings).
Fun fact: the woman dancing with Franklin is Richard Biggs' then fiancé (now widow, RIP Richard). Not sure if it's deliberate, but ISN calling the blockade of B5 a 'quarantine' is interesting. IRL a blockade is an act of war, whereas a quarantine isn't. The same wording was used by the USA during the Cuban Missile Crisis to avoid immediately starting a war with the USSR.
The Shadows were not corrupt - they were nasty, violent, unfriendly - but they were exactly what they claimed to be. Just because they were evil doesn't mean they weren't honest about it.
Sheridan is upset with Lyta because if she is willing to go rogue, he is afraid what she might do. He really doesn't want to turn her over at all. He just wants to remind her that she can't just go destroying things.
I think, in spirit, you're right, but I think it runs a little deeper than that. Hopefully without going into spoiler territory, Sheridan realizes if agents of the Shadows were still around and probably intent on continuing their masters' designs (or picking up some of their own), what about agents of the Vorlons? What about someone who had literal direct contact with the Vorlons and also has the power to back it up apparently? It's more than just stopping a potential (powerful) rogue telepath, it's about making sure the war they just ended has no chance of starting up again.
I see that Babylon 5 taught you, as it did me, the lesson that without a common enemy, our human instinct is to argue amongst ourselves over petty ish. And that government encourages this instead of guarding against it.
@@MegaReacts If I am not mistaken, I was the one that pointed out that JMS is not at all anti-government. And since you have reach the end of the season 4. And saw the end of both Minbari and Earth civil war, where governments are renewed and reformed. JMS writes about what to watch out for and the message is to 'do better'. And I would note that more then just B5, JMS writings over the decades has always been distinctively progressive and left-wing in nature. Hence the new Minbari council is 2 warrior, 2 religious, 5 worker. It's practically Marxist, given the Minbari was already public service oriented even before that. If you watched B5 and all you took away is an anti-government sentiments, then as G'Kar put it... "you have learned the wrong lessons".
@@MegaReacts That is an utterly insane statement. I am quite certain that you know nothing of governments beyond the US (and at most remember that of the last 40 years) and yet you feel confident in stating "humanity proves otherwise" that government are bad. Do you know how insane that sounds? *There is no society that has no government. Period.* And contrary to what Americans think, the US is not no. 1 in a lot of areas. I am not even sure what your mindset gets you. Does it ever occur to you that the US politics and system is in such turmoil because Americans (in particularly right-wing) has been spending the last half a century telling themselves and the rest of the country, government 'bad' and trying everything to prove that point in a exercise of self-sabotage. Do tell, 'government bad'... what then? What does that get you? Where do you get from there? What are you working towards?
Pastels! Bester! Lyta! "I just wish I knew where they were going". Do we know? That face is just a lovely piece of acting. Good to see you liked it! Be seeing you
12:14 I don't know who told you you're getting the message wrong, but that person is very wrong. Babylon 5, from basically the first main series episode forward talks about the government doing shady stuff. It makes references to 1984 and other Orwell works. It makes references to Clockwork Orange along those same lines. This stuff is *everywhere* in Babylon 5. Don't trust in governments. Trust in individuals. If Londo and G'kar had been left to their own devices, without shadow influence, they would have become allies by the end of Season 2. Turhan, acting outside of his own government and politics was doing one last thing before he died, extending an olive branch. If this had gone forward without the Shadows influence it would have resulted in a galvanized alliance of worlds. That absolutely tragic moment where Londo and G'kar share a drink in Season 2, and Londo realizes what all his political machinations have done. Ruined everything. Ruined peace, and perhaps even a deep, meaningful friendship. And that's just the Narn/Centauri stuff up to ths point. Earth Gov has been shaded since S1E1.
well, I can't answer that without giving spoilers, but B5 is about both the good and bad potential with government. There is hope in the series, even for government.
Classic B5 move, victory doesn't mean the end of the war. There are always new wars to fight, new problems to face. And obviously we see that President Clark is panicking now that his masters the Shadows are gone.
It was about this time in the production that JMS found out that, PTEN (the network showing B5) was about to fold, and that no matter what, he could expect this season to be the last. So several plotlines got moved up, a few got dropped, some got combined etc in order to complete the show in the time left
When they made Season four, they ended up compressing two seasons worth of stories into one because they didn't know if season five was going to happen. Also those things are called Keepers
I don't think B5 is telling us anything as simple as "don't trust the government.", I think the message is more that we should be skeptical of the government, especially of authoritarianism and unearned power.
It's not anti government as such, It's anti bad government. As least that's how i see it, Everyone looks at things with the filter of their own views. No government is far worse than a normal one, And a bad one can be worse than no government, But not neccsaryly so. Depends on where in the spectrum of bad a particular government sits lol....
I see it as a warning of what happens when a government forgets its purpose is the people and starts seeing itself as having it's own importance. Anyone that has wanted power, has wanted authority, has felt like they had the right to tell other people what to do in B5 has gone.... badly. The 'good' leaders in B5 are the ones who see themselves in service of others and are willing to pay the cost personally, rather than just expect others to.
Show me one government, that gets less controlling with a passage of time. The saying "bureaucracy is expanding, to meet the needs of expanding bureaucracy," is the best description of governments since its adoption of such a system that I can think of. Closely followed by "let no tragedy go to waste," referring to a grab for more power. Show me one government, or in fact an organization that voluntarily lets go of power they gain during a crisis. As long as you understand that government is just a group of people, mostly out for their own interests, not some benevolent benefactor, you're good. I'd like to see some examples of your idea of a good government.
@@raifthemad well pretty much certainly anything that's not a brutal military dictatorship or genocidal superior race cult, And generally mostly enacts the wishes of the people & don't try to over stay thier welcome or turn half the country against the other half. Certainly qualify in my book 🤣👍
@@Markus117d I'd say the few not awful ones were those, that didn't imprison their own populace during the recent disease outbreak. But even then, no government really enacts wishes of their people in general. They sometimes throw some crumbs to give the impression of serving the people, but in reality they just serve themselves, and/or those who finance their campaigns and have cushy corporate jobs waiting for them after they retire from government, in case they didn't manage to enrich themselves enough not to have to work. Even the governments that do some good, in some aspects are mostly wasteful control apparatus for the populace. But then again, to a domesticated sheep, pretty much any shepherd is better than living in the wild with predators.
@@raifthemad Imprisoned or protected?, And before you say, "It wasn't that bad for healthy people / My immune system can handle it" it wasn't about the fittest or healthiest, It was about protecting people who are more vulnerable and making sure hospitals didn't become so saturated looking after infected patients that they had no space left for any one else, Including those biologicaly blessed with awesome immune systems who were unlucky enough to suffer a bad case of for example auto-wreck or food poisoning ect....
This episode is a Freight Train thundering down the tracks, carrying a future we want to avoid but can't. Delene pleaded in War Without end "John, DO NOT GO TO Z'HaDum!" The Emperor's wife told Londo "You will be Emperor, that cannot be changed" The neck creatures are on Centauri Prime. Mr Morden, warned Londo Centauri Prime would pay for his betrayal. The freight train from War Without End has already started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote
Sheridan was always too harsh and a bit too dismissive of Lyta. I always feel she got the raw end of the deal most of the time. And she proved herself time and time again.
except, if you are careful and what what she does/doesn't do, he has good reason to be harsh with her. What she did here is proof of it. She is more like Bester than she wants to admit.
Agreed. Sheridan comes across as a complete A**hole there in my opinion. Also Lyta is not one of his officers- he has no authority over her actions. And his threat about sending her to the Psi Corp was really disgusting. Not his finest hour.
She endangered everyone aboard the White Star. She didn't warn them when they were going in. What would have happened if Sheridan hadn't guessed right?
Besides if you listen to his tone, he isn’t mad at what she did, but that she didn’t talk to him about it first. He is also a little scared of what the shadow allies got away from the planet with.
17:00 Those doors are STUPID ... because it has to open up A LOT before you can get inside. SOME "basic concepts" are universal and set designers shouldnt feel obliged to invent something that is obviously stupid, just to be different.
People get confused about “possible futures”. In the very first episode Londo describes his death and says it will happen. Londo has seen it. Lady Morella has seen it and confirmed his ascension and death as well. We, the audience witnessed it personally when Sheridan visited the future. The only future that was preventable was the destruction of Babylon 5 in Season 3. Lady Ladiera, whose predictions were terrifying certain and accurate, told Sinclair that this event was a “possible future” and one she hoped he could prevent. The only reason she saw two possible futures was because they would be dabbling in time travel. Her sharing the vision with Sinclair may have even helped to send him down the right path. With the rift in Sector 14 closed, the timeline is restored for better or for worse. There’s no going back to fix things anymore. What will be will be.
Is Babylon 5 anti-government? An interesting question. I think 'yes, it is' is a perfectly reasonable answer based on how the show presents them. Like you said, every government portrayed has had some evil or corrupt tendencies. To speak for the other side though, I think the best argument against this interpretation would be that the show tends towards removing the corrupt elements of a government rather than the government itself. From this POV the show would be, as someone else said in the comments, be against 'bad government' rather than against government. I could see an intended message being that government tends towards corruption unless active and perpetual effort is taken to veer it away as much as possible - but that may just be my own biases seeping in. I think it's easy to forget that every main character in the whole show works for some government or other (with the exception of Marcus) - even being major politicians in the case of Londo, G'Kar, and Delen, and being career soldiers in the case of Sinclair, Sheridan, and Ivanova. There's more to say on this topic, but that would be spoilers. The military certainly isn't (and probably shouldn't be) separate from the government, up until the Fascist Clarke comes in. When Sheridan takes off his Earthforce uniform, he isn't taking it off because he is no longer a patriot, but because he no longer feels it represents the Earthforce as it was prior to Clarke - he does want to wear it again someday, though. The show is rightfully cynical towards the government but I think an entirely anti-governmental show wouldn't portray the military in such a positive light. Again, this may be my biases seeping in. I'd hopefully consider that a more in depth analysis than 'they're all liberal sheep unlike my woke self' as I've seen in other comments but who knows. For what it's worth, I don't think anyone would be incorrect thinking that the show is anti government, but I don't think it's the only legitimate interpretation either.
12:30 I'm not sure who told you this, lol. I feel like the message is to question things (but I do feel that since recently, questioning things = opposed to the current government), and that, to me is the tipping point toward full authoritarianism)
I'm guessing, that people who say, that you get the wrong message about the government, tend to be quite tribal and fall on the left side of the left-right axis of political compass and on authoritarian side of the authoritarian-libertarian axis. So to them government is what god is to the tribals on the right. Hence why they're uncomfortable with the thought of government not being a benevolent being that's there for their benefit. Which makes them block these thoughts out and even attack anyone who points out the reality to them. Because that is a very discomforting thought they would rather not have contact with. The same kind of sheep that wanted to believe the government and their associates lies during covid craze.
You probably know this already, but during production, they were worried season 4 was going to be the last season, so JMS and crew condensed seasons 4 and 5 into one killer season. That's why it feels like another season start. It was meant to be in a perfect world.
It was thought that B5 would get cancelled after 4 seasons and not get the 5th that JMS has planned for, so he shortened the Shadow War storyline and brought a bunch of stuff forward from S5 into S4. They also shot the Series Finale, "Sleeping in Light" at the end of S4. When they got the pickup for S5 the had to re-rearrange things yet again, but kept the same series finale and play it as 5x22 instead of 4x22.
Common sense is not that common these days. So to many people, you have to send that message. To be fair, I wonder if it ever was very common, and we just didn't see the sea of stupidity, because there was no global communication network to expose it to us. Because masses of people have, when you look back at history, always been easily influenced by bullshait.
I think the Shadows were probably the most honest of all. They didn't advertise their intentions but never tried to deny them or pretend to be divine beings.
How were they honest? They were pretending to ally themselves with several different worlds to get them to fight each other. They and the Vorlons were both entirely self serving and were only interested in the fact that they saw themselves as being right.
@kardy12 How were they pretending? They asked "what do you want" and then they delivered it. Perhaps they told some races that it was an exclusive deal. But we have seen no evidence of that. They didn't even hide the fact they would expect favours in return. Londo and the Centauri got what they wanted. I strongly suspect the other races got exactly what they asked for, too. A bit like making a wish to a genie, you'd better be damn sure you know what it is you're asking for and word it very carefully. Then, still expect serious blowback.
@@davidb1565 They “allied” themselves with races while pretending they didn’t do the same with others, encouraged them to fight each other and then watched by in glee at the chaos they created. They weren’t any more “honest” than the Vorlons.
@kardy12 Did you see them lie to anyone? I didn't. Seems like people just assumed they were in some sort of exclusive deal and that the Shadows were their best buddies. Morden even admitted he'd been approaching all the other embassadors. He never said he wouldn't talk to more. He was honest enough to tell Londo there were no guarantees the Shadows wouldn't attack the Centari in the future. No BS treaties or promises. Even when they killed Adira and Londo approached Morden about it. Morden never actually blames Refa or outright suggests it was him. Just that he'd heard Refa was upset with Londo etc. I go back to the genie analogy. If you assume the genie has your best interests at heart, just because it's offering your hearts desire....more fool you. Maybe use one wish to ask the genie what it wants.
@@davidb1565 They used the Centauri. They were not "helping" them. They didn't care about any particular race, or which one would persevere and which one would go extinct, they only cared about creating conflict and having everyone else fight each other. So no, they were not honest.
Regarding not knowing how to feel at this point in the story, it's worth remembering that the show was never only just about the Shadow War. It's about the station and what it accomplishes. There are still plenty of battles ahead and, as Sheridan said last episode, its time to find their own way between order and chaos without the Vorlons and Shadows pulling the strings. There's a lot of mess left to clean up..
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 91 | คู่เอก "คมอาวุธ vs อเล็กเซย์"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/V0RkEfYFsgM/mqdefault.jpg)
Burst out laughing at 6:08 and the Firefly reference. Good job Mega!
Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
That why the best form of government is monitored, controlled, open and accountable...
What I like about this is that Bester is Bester, but he did keep to his word to work with the B5 crew until the Shadows were gone. But he is Bester.
The Addams Family Values reference got me off guard. AND I ABSOLUTELY LOVED IT!
I can't believe you left out the best scene from the episode from this reaction, with Zack in the customs having Bester come in after Londo, and then him making a comment about going to report before anyone else comes through that gate, and how with his luck next one is going to be second coming. And then the next people coming through the gate are three Elvis impersonators (aka the three kings).
Fun fact: the woman dancing with Franklin is Richard Biggs' then fiancé (now widow, RIP Richard).
Not sure if it's deliberate, but ISN calling the blockade of B5 a 'quarantine' is interesting. IRL a blockade is an act of war, whereas a quarantine isn't. The same wording was used by the USA during the Cuban Missile Crisis to avoid immediately starting a war with the USSR.
Knowing how much JMS has studied history, I'd put money on it being a deliberate choice of words to show the games we play.
The Shadows were not corrupt - they were nasty, violent, unfriendly - but they were exactly what they claimed to be. Just because they were evil doesn't mean they weren't honest about it.
They didn't consider themselves evil, either. They were helping the younger races grow and develop though conflict.
@@miller-joel I think a lot of people who get called evil think of themselves as good guys.
Sheridan is upset with Lyta because if she is willing to go rogue, he is afraid what she might do. He really doesn't want to turn her over at all. He just wants to remind her that she can't just go destroying things.
I think we can make the case that Sheridan, for all his virtues, is only human and may be just a bit prejudiced against Telepaths.
I think, in spirit, you're right, but I think it runs a little deeper than that. Hopefully without going into spoiler territory, Sheridan realizes if agents of the Shadows were still around and probably intent on continuing their masters' designs (or picking up some of their own), what about agents of the Vorlons? What about someone who had literal direct contact with the Vorlons and also has the power to back it up apparently? It's more than just stopping a potential (powerful) rogue telepath, it's about making sure the war they just ended has no chance of starting up again.
I see that Babylon 5 taught you, as it did me, the lesson that without a common enemy, our human instinct is to argue amongst ourselves over petty ish. And that government encourages this instead of guarding against it.
Oh I learned this way before I ever watched B5.
@@MegaReacts If I am not mistaken, I was the one that pointed out that JMS is not at all anti-government. And since you have reach the end of the season 4. And saw the end of both Minbari and Earth civil war, where governments are renewed and reformed. JMS writes about what to watch out for and the message is to 'do better'. And I would note that more then just B5, JMS writings over the decades has always been distinctively progressive and left-wing in nature. Hence the new Minbari council is 2 warrior, 2 religious, 5 worker. It's practically Marxist, given the Minbari was already public service oriented even before that. If you watched B5 and all you took away is an anti-government sentiments, then as G'Kar put it... "you have learned the wrong lessons".
@@biocapsule7311 Governments can be great in fiction. The reality of humanity proves otherwise. Maybe one day...
@@MegaReacts That is an utterly insane statement. I am quite certain that you know nothing of governments beyond the US (and at most remember that of the last 40 years) and yet you feel confident in stating "humanity proves otherwise" that government are bad. Do you know how insane that sounds? *There is no society that has no government. Period.* And contrary to what Americans think, the US is not no. 1 in a lot of areas. I am not even sure what your mindset gets you. Does it ever occur to you that the US politics and system is in such turmoil because Americans (in particularly right-wing) has been spending the last half a century telling themselves and the rest of the country, government 'bad' and trying everything to prove that point in a exercise of self-sabotage.
Do tell, 'government bad'... what then? What does that get you? Where do you get from there? What are you working towards?
Pastels!
Bester!
Lyta!
"I just wish I knew where they were going".
Do we know?
That face is just a lovely piece of acting.
Good to see you liked it!
Be seeing you
“I know that I know nothing.” - Socrates
All I will say is think about Lady Morellas warning to Londo.
Lyta can't catch a break.
The question is are we still on route to the future from War without end? Sheridan might have changed Londo's fate and damned the regent instead
Welcome home Mr Garibaldi :D
12:14 I don't know who told you you're getting the message wrong, but that person is very wrong.
Babylon 5, from basically the first main series episode forward talks about the government doing shady stuff. It makes references to 1984 and other Orwell works. It makes references to Clockwork Orange along those same lines. This stuff is *everywhere* in Babylon 5. Don't trust in governments. Trust in individuals.
If Londo and G'kar had been left to their own devices, without shadow influence, they would have become allies by the end of Season 2. Turhan, acting outside of his own government and politics was doing one last thing before he died, extending an olive branch. If this had gone forward without the Shadows influence it would have resulted in a galvanized alliance of worlds.
That absolutely tragic moment where Londo and G'kar share a drink in Season 2, and Londo realizes what all his political machinations have done. Ruined everything. Ruined peace, and perhaps even a deep, meaningful friendship.
And that's just the Narn/Centauri stuff up to ths point. Earth Gov has been shaded since S1E1.
well, I can't answer that without giving spoilers, but B5 is about both the good and bad potential with government. There is hope in the series, even for government.
@@hornorsilk2901 I'd say in people, not government.
@@OpenMawProductions government is from and by people, and again, we can't discuss much about this yet
Classic B5 move, victory doesn't mean the end of the war. There are always new wars to fight, new problems to face. And obviously we see that President Clark is panicking now that his masters the Shadows are gone.
It was about this time in the production that JMS found out that, PTEN (the network showing B5) was about to fold, and that no matter what, he could expect this season to be the last. So several plotlines got moved up, a few got dropped, some got combined etc in order to complete the show in the time left
When they made Season four, they ended up compressing two seasons worth of stories into one because they didn't know if season five was going to happen.
Also those things are called Keepers
I don't think B5 is telling us anything as simple as "don't trust the government.", I think the message is more that we should be skeptical of the government, especially of authoritarianism and unearned power.
It's not anti government as such, It's anti bad government. As least that's how i see it, Everyone looks at things with the filter of their own views. No government is far worse than a normal one, And a bad one can be worse than no government, But not neccsaryly so. Depends on where in the spectrum of bad a particular government sits lol....
I see it as a warning of what happens when a government forgets its purpose is the people and starts seeing itself as having it's own importance. Anyone that has wanted power, has wanted authority, has felt like they had the right to tell other people what to do in B5 has gone.... badly. The 'good' leaders in B5 are the ones who see themselves in service of others and are willing to pay the cost personally, rather than just expect others to.
Show me one government, that gets less controlling with a passage of time. The saying "bureaucracy is expanding, to meet the needs of expanding bureaucracy," is the best description of governments since its adoption of such a system that I can think of. Closely followed by "let no tragedy go to waste," referring to a grab for more power. Show me one government, or in fact an organization that voluntarily lets go of power they gain during a crisis.
As long as you understand that government is just a group of people, mostly out for their own interests, not some benevolent benefactor, you're good.
I'd like to see some examples of your idea of a good government.
@@raifthemad well pretty much certainly anything that's not a brutal military dictatorship or genocidal superior race cult, And generally mostly enacts the wishes of the people & don't try to over stay thier welcome or turn half the country against the other half. Certainly qualify in my book 🤣👍
@@Markus117d I'd say the few not awful ones were those, that didn't imprison their own populace during the recent disease outbreak. But even then, no government really enacts wishes of their people in general. They sometimes throw some crumbs to give the impression of serving the people, but in reality they just serve themselves, and/or those who finance their campaigns and have cushy corporate jobs waiting for them after they retire from government, in case they didn't manage to enrich themselves enough not to have to work. Even the governments that do some good, in some aspects are mostly wasteful control apparatus for the populace.
But then again, to a domesticated sheep, pretty much any shepherd is better than living in the wild with predators.
@@raifthemad Imprisoned or protected?, And before you say, "It wasn't that bad for healthy people / My immune system can handle it" it wasn't about the fittest or healthiest, It was about protecting people who are more vulnerable and making sure hospitals didn't become so saturated looking after infected patients that they had no space left for any one else, Including those biologicaly blessed with awesome immune systems who were unlucky enough to suffer a bad case of for example auto-wreck or food poisoning ect....
This episode is a Freight Train thundering down the tracks, carrying a future we want to avoid but can't.
Delene pleaded in War Without end "John, DO NOT GO TO Z'HaDum!"
The Emperor's wife told Londo "You will be Emperor, that cannot be changed"
The neck creatures are on Centauri Prime.
Mr Morden, warned Londo Centauri Prime would pay for his betrayal.
The freight train from War Without End has already started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote
I have to say that i have often wanted to see the aftermath of victory - history days it is not always so great.
Mega have you already watched Thirdspace?
Sheridan was always too harsh and a bit too dismissive of Lyta. I always feel she got the raw end of the deal most of the time. And she proved herself time and time again.
except, if you are careful and what what she does/doesn't do, he has good reason to be harsh with her. What she did here is proof of it. She is more like Bester than she wants to admit.
Agreed. Sheridan comes across as a complete A**hole there in my opinion. Also Lyta is not one of his officers- he has no authority over her actions. And his threat about sending her to the Psi Corp was really disgusting. Not his finest hour.
She endangered everyone aboard the White Star. She didn't warn them when they were going in. What would have happened if Sheridan hadn't guessed right?
@@tjtenser7828 her triggering of Z'ha'dum booby traps could have killed them all.
Besides if you listen to his tone, he isn’t mad at what she did, but that she didn’t talk to him about it first. He is also a little scared of what the shadow allies got away from the planet with.
17:00 Those doors are STUPID ... because it has to open up A LOT before you can get inside. SOME "basic concepts" are universal and set designers shouldnt feel obliged to invent something that is obviously stupid, just to be different.
No spoilers, but the remainder of the show is going to travel in unexpected directions. This was just the jumping off point
People get confused about “possible futures”. In the very first episode Londo describes his death and says it will happen. Londo has seen it. Lady Morella has seen it and confirmed his ascension and death as well. We, the audience witnessed it personally when Sheridan visited the future.
The only future that was preventable was the destruction of Babylon 5 in Season 3. Lady Ladiera, whose predictions were terrifying certain and accurate, told Sinclair that this event was a “possible future” and one she hoped he could prevent. The only reason she saw two possible futures was because they would be dabbling in time travel. Her sharing the vision with Sinclair may have even helped to send him down the right path.
With the rift in Sector 14 closed, the timeline is restored for better or for worse. There’s no going back to fix things anymore. What will be will be.
She played him and he's pissed
"The parents and the child. That's typical Psi Corps."
You don't even know. Read the Psi Corps trilogy to see who they represent. 😂😂😂
The child in particular.
Is Babylon 5 anti-government? An interesting question. I think 'yes, it is' is a perfectly reasonable answer based on how the show presents them. Like you said, every government portrayed has had some evil or corrupt tendencies. To speak for the other side though, I think the best argument against this interpretation would be that the show tends towards removing the corrupt elements of a government rather than the government itself. From this POV the show would be, as someone else said in the comments, be against 'bad government' rather than against government. I could see an intended message being that government tends towards corruption unless active and perpetual effort is taken to veer it away as much as possible - but that may just be my own biases seeping in. I think it's easy to forget that every main character in the whole show works for some government or other (with the exception of Marcus) - even being major politicians in the case of Londo, G'Kar, and Delen, and being career soldiers in the case of Sinclair, Sheridan, and Ivanova. There's more to say on this topic, but that would be spoilers. The military certainly isn't (and probably shouldn't be) separate from the government, up until the Fascist Clarke comes in. When Sheridan takes off his Earthforce uniform, he isn't taking it off because he is no longer a patriot, but because he no longer feels it represents the Earthforce as it was prior to Clarke - he does want to wear it again someday, though. The show is rightfully cynical towards the government but I think an entirely anti-governmental show wouldn't portray the military in such a positive light. Again, this may be my biases seeping in.
I'd hopefully consider that a more in depth analysis than 'they're all liberal sheep unlike my woke self' as I've seen in other comments but who knows. For what it's worth, I don't think anyone would be incorrect thinking that the show is anti government, but I don't think it's the only legitimate interpretation either.
12:30 I'm not sure who told you this, lol. I feel like the message is to question things (but I do feel that since recently, questioning things = opposed to the current government), and that, to me is the tipping point toward full authoritarianism)
I'm guessing, that people who say, that you get the wrong message about the government, tend to be quite tribal and fall on the left side of the left-right axis of political compass and on authoritarian side of the authoritarian-libertarian axis. So to them government is what god is to the tribals on the right. Hence why they're uncomfortable with the thought of government not being a benevolent being that's there for their benefit. Which makes them block these thoughts out and even attack anyone who points out the reality to them. Because that is a very discomforting thought they would rather not have contact with.
The same kind of sheep that wanted to believe the government and their associates lies during covid craze.
You probably know this already, but during production, they were worried season 4 was going to be the last season, so JMS and crew condensed seasons 4 and 5 into one killer season. That's why it feels like another season start. It was meant to be in a perfect world.
It was thought that B5 would get cancelled after 4 seasons and not get the 5th that JMS has planned for, so he shortened the Shadow War storyline and brought a bunch of stuff forward from S5 into S4. They also shot the Series Finale, "Sleeping in Light" at the end of S4. When they got the pickup for S5 the had to re-rearrange things yet again, but kept the same series finale and play it as 5x22 instead of 4x22.
B5 has no clean endings and soft denouements. On this show, cleaning up the debris may get real messy
"Don't trust the government" isn't a message, it's common sense.
Common sense is not that common these days. So to many people, you have to send that message.
To be fair, I wonder if it ever was very common, and we just didn't see the sea of stupidity, because there was no global communication network to expose it to us. Because masses of people have, when you look back at history, always been easily influenced by bullshait.
I think the Shadows were probably the most honest of all. They didn't advertise their intentions but never tried to deny them or pretend to be divine beings.
How were they honest? They were pretending to ally themselves with several different worlds to get them to fight each other. They and the Vorlons were both entirely self serving and were only interested in the fact that they saw themselves as being right.
@kardy12 How were they pretending? They asked "what do you want" and then they delivered it. Perhaps they told some races that it was an exclusive deal. But we have seen no evidence of that. They didn't even hide the fact they would expect favours in return. Londo and the Centauri got what they wanted. I strongly suspect the other races got exactly what they asked for, too. A bit like making a wish to a genie, you'd better be damn sure you know what it is you're asking for and word it very carefully. Then, still expect serious blowback.
@@davidb1565
They “allied” themselves with races while pretending they didn’t do the same with others, encouraged them to fight each other and then watched by in glee at the chaos they created. They weren’t any more “honest” than the Vorlons.
@kardy12 Did you see them lie to anyone? I didn't. Seems like people just assumed they were in some sort of exclusive deal and that the Shadows were their best buddies. Morden even admitted he'd been approaching all the other embassadors. He never said he wouldn't talk to more. He was honest enough to tell Londo there were no guarantees the Shadows wouldn't attack the Centari in the future. No BS treaties or promises. Even when they killed Adira and Londo approached Morden about it. Morden never actually blames Refa or outright suggests it was him. Just that he'd heard Refa was upset with Londo etc.
I go back to the genie analogy. If you assume the genie has your best interests at heart, just because it's offering your hearts desire....more fool you. Maybe use one wish to ask the genie what it wants.
@@davidb1565 They used the Centauri. They were not "helping" them. They didn't care about any particular race, or which one would persevere and which one would go extinct, they only cared about creating conflict and having everyone else fight each other. So no, they were not honest.
Regarding not knowing how to feel at this point in the story, it's worth remembering that the show was never only just about the Shadow War. It's about the station and what it accomplishes. There are still plenty of battles ahead and, as Sheridan said last episode, its time to find their own way between order and chaos without the Vorlons and Shadows pulling the strings. There's a lot of mess left to clean up..
If you’re saying trust the government you clearly didn’t pay attention to the show, aren’t paying attention now or you work for the government.