The only thing that would have made it better, imo, is if they hadn't shown the flashback, and just let the wave stand on its own as a fun easter egg or a treat to discover on repeat viewings.
I'm shocked he didn't comment on that in the moment. Also when I rewatched the episode I was surprised how quickly it moves on from there. It doesn't' hang and give it time. Londo needs to ask Vir to do this, and we need to think about it.
Londo's arc is one of the most tragic in sci-fi history, to say Peter Jurasik was born to play this role is in no way an overstatement. RIP all the B5 crew that have travelled to beyond the rim.
*_If you can't say what you're meaning, you can never mean what you're saying. The details are everything._* The best appeal for KNOWING DEFINITIONS and BEING PRECISE WITH LANGUAGE I have ever heard. One of Babylon 5's wisdoms.
I took this to heart when I watched this as a kid... now it just causes problems with my partner who believes in that whole "words only make up 30% of what is communicated" and "you must reading between the lines" povs so the things I say just basically goes through a filter of what he thinks I'm saying, then I get frequently misquoted, told that I'm too literal and use his words against him unfairly all the time because words mean what he means, not what the dictionary says 🥲
@@Belbecat Emojis are "emotional script" ... and because of this there is no precise definition for them. Just ask an "emoji-spammer" for a definion for them. This is one of the current wars on PRECISE SPEECH. "Interpretation between the lines" is BAD, because they arent fixed and societies - especially LAW and SCIENCE - cant run on ambiguity and interpretation. Concerning "law" there is the brilliant *_"using the letter of the law to defeat the spirit of the law"_* though, which goes against the "precise meaning" (but laws are typically NOT WRITTEN PRECISELY on purpose). The bottom line of the saying is the TOWER OF BABEL story ... if we dont mean the same when we say "red" or "blue" or "gang" ... we are talking past each other and even the "double negative" used in some american communities is enabling misunderstandings.
"The way they painted space..." They didn't paint them so much as use existing pics. Those are Hubble images which, at the time, were pretty much brand new.
There are 3 moments in the show that made me literally stand up from my seat and clap: - Zach tossing the Nightwatch armband on the floor - Sheridan declaring independence - Vir waving at Morden's decapitated head. Each of these is so satisfying not because of the moment itself, but how much it releases the tension from what came before.
As Londo is trashing his room in rage pay attention to what he doesn't destroy, what he collapses next to. His portrait isn't out of vanity. It is watching over something, someone, who is Very special to him. Who's in the urn...
Only the second oldest sentient race the Shadows and the youngest of the space fairing races the Humans understood the value of fusion weapons. Worth noting methinks.
Interesting bit of side trivia here: "Into the Fire" was the name used for a Babylon 5 video game that was being developed in the late 90s. The game was primarily a space combat sim, but allowed the player to rise through the ranks from a Starfury pilot to a fleet commander. The game was ultimately cancelled in 1999 during a restructuring of the publisher, Sierra Online. Tons of footage was filmed with the original cast on the original B5 sets for the films cut scenes/story. This footage was actually the last footage shot on the original sets before they were dismantled. Unfortunately, after the cancellation, most of the footage was lost or destroyed and has never been seen outside of the development team. Playable alpha versions of the game can be found floating around online.
The shock of this episode happening 6 episodes in the fourth season resonates with all first time viewers. I was surprised that you and Jeff both were catching on that the war might end in this episode. What happens next? Well, all I can say is -- my favorite episode of the season has yet to be watched.
Well they started looking at the show from a LOTR lens so it makes sense. Also if we're being real, where could the story with the Shadows and Vorlons go after they brought out planet killers and multiple fleets of thousands of ships, where a single ship can take on multiple younger race ships at once? There really wasn't much more that could be done with the conflict after the Summoning.
@@GeneralDingo Correct. This is the equivalent to the Battle at the Black Gate. And What happened after Sauron was finally defeated? The Three Rings lost their power as well and the Elves went into the West (of course, they already started, like the Technomages), leaving Middle-earth behind for Men. That was the beginning of the Fourth Age in Middle-earth. Here, it is the beginning of the Third Age. And just like the LotR, there is a little space for more: The Shire had to be freed from Saruman. And, of course, there are the Appendices which explain what happened to the members of the Fellowship after the War of the Ring.
@@GeneralDingoJMS said this would have been padded out to 9 or so episodes had they not felt the threat of cancellation breathing down their necks, but it would have ended the same.
@@jmwild1 Yeah, allegedly, the Shadow War was going to end at season midpoint or maybe even two thirds of the way in max with the current S4E18 being the original finale. As I said, it's speculative.
Londo telling Morden, "I'll have to have that painted over," is one of my favorite lines from this one. First time I heard that line I sucked in air through my teeth for 5 solid seconds.
The whole Shadows philosophy of "grow through struggle and conflict" always reminds me of the comment from Harry Lime in *_"The Third Man":_* _"After all, it’s not that awful. You know what the fellow said - in Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace. And what did that produce? The cuckoo clock."_
Thing is... its a perfectly valid philosophy, the Shadows unfortunately, took it to the extreme... like any sort of fanatics tend to do. They arent the nicest people, but if they toned down their extremism the Shadows were probably alot more fun and personable to know. Its like a kid learning to ride a bike with a parent helping, the Vorlons sit there and tell the kid everything, every rule before even letting the kid touch the bike... The kid then takes a ride and falls off the Vorlons just sigh and frown, with a throw away 'You werent listening', they walk off leaving the kid to get up and follow them... the Shadows are the kind of parent who just gives the kid a bike cold and says 'Go on, hop on and ride it', then as the kid wobbles along then falls off scrapping their knee they laugh at the kids situation, BUT they walk over pick the kid up and say, 'try again'... and yeah they'll laugh everytime the kid falls... but they seem like the ones who in a weird way 'care' for their underlings, unlike the Vorlons.
One of the many things I love about B5 is JMS' philosophy regarding big events like the ending of the Shadow war. He always likes to point out that things are never ended neatly, that the Aftermath of a cataclysmic event is just as, if not more, important than the event itself. So him ending the Shadow war 6 episodes into the 3rd of 5 seasons indicates how much fallout there will be from this war.
Oh I can't wait for this!!! 😁 Episode is soooo quotable! :D "On any other day Mr. Morden you would be wrong ... today is a very special day!" 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣🤣😂🤣😂
my favorite lines in all of B5 is in this episode. "ah Mr Morden I see they found you good good" and "what are you going to do Mollari blow up the island" "Actually now that you mention it" KABOOOOM
Okay, we had Gandalf/Sheridan falling into the deep chasm at Khazad-dûm / Za'ha'dum, only to come back later because the mission isn't completed and now the end of the third age, with all the magic beings fading away, leaving Middle Earth/The Galaxy to the lesser / younger ones taking over.
Lorien Told him to "jump now" as the Whitestar crashed in to detonate two fusion warheads. He was waiting for Sheridan for millions of years because Sheridan was the Nexus around which the Universe would pivot. Lorien's species died out through lack of change as the Shadows, Vorlons, Minbari, Centauri, Nan etc were dying out through lack of change. When Kosh says "they are dying" and Sheridan says "Who? The Nan or Centauri?" Kosh replies "Yes".
Of course you loved the scene where Vir sees Mr. Morden's head on a pike. We all did. Ooohh, so THAT's what that conversation was supposed to foreshadow! 🙂
This was accidentally done, I mean, the Shadow War wasn't supposed to end so soon, but JMS had no choice. The studio was about to cancel the show on the 4th season without giving him a 5th, and he didn't want to leave any storylines behind. And because of this, nobody ever expected it to end like this. But it did. In 6 episodes the entire Narn-Centauri, Vorlon-Shadow wars have been resolved. *Or at least we as viewers are meant to think so* . And the beauty as well, the Shadows and the Vorlons just couldn't be defeated through force. They're just too powerful. Neither of them are inherently bad, they're different. Both had good intentions at heart at first. But after eons, they lost their way. So reminding them of that, with Lorien, basically the mentor and sort of father of all, backing up the younger races, the Vorlons and the Shadows were forced to see the error of their way. It's a beautiful story, but we're not yet done. Babylon 5 still has all of season 4 to go. And oh boy, gonna be interesting to see what you think of it.
Yeah, which is what, despite it being true that JMS feared for the end of B5 in this season, I can't but think that he wanted the Vorlon-Shadow war to end way before the end of the season anyway. It's not like he simply had to do now what he was going to leave for Ep. 21 or something -- no, he knew there was nothing we could do with the difference in technology. Hell, we would have lost to the Minbari if it weren't for this 'they have Minari souls' thing! Let alone Shadows and Vorlons... No, the answer had to be something non-military, something more philosophical. That's what these two were -- philosophical viewpoints for which we had to find some kind of synthesis, or 'third way'.
@@scottkrametbauer90 I wouldn't say it's too soon. They have been asking why this feels like a season finale, and it sorta is. It's not spoiling any of the plot that is to come or what to expect by the end of the season.
14:54 That’s a favorite moment for a lot of dedicated B5 fans. Certainly on everyone’s short list. And there’s more scenes on those lists in this episode alone, as you know by now. 16:50 As much as you have to despise what Londo does at times in this series, you have to admit that there’s still at least some nobility left in him here. The Vorlon vs. Shadow/Order vs. Chaos message really reminds me of the fantasy of Michael Moorcock. He had gods and champions of Law and Chaos, and a necessary Balance between them. Life can’t exist when Order or Chaos becomes too powerful; it’s only in Balance that progress can be made. Also reminds me of Brandon Sanderson’s Mistborn series, with Ruin and Preservation. Neither one can actually create when alone.
The "Get the hell out of our galaxy!" speech was the first thing I saw of Babylon 5, and what made me watch the series. Even knowing it was coming, that moment made all of the Soulhunters and Egg People and King Arthurs worth it. Also Vir getting what he wants never fails to make me clap my hands and giggle like a child.
The “network” Babylon 5 was airing on was discussing canceling the show after Season 4. JMS made the decision to combine Seasons 4 and 5 into one, which is why the Shadow War seems to resolve much earlier in the season than it should. The remaining episodes of Season 4 deal with what originally had been planned for Season 5. A series finale was even filmed. Babylon 5 was ultimately canceled, and the show moved to TNT, where a new 5th season to the show had to be created. The series finale filmed in Season 4 was aired at the end of Season 5 and beautifully capstones the entire series.
Not exactly. JMS had to streamline season 4 and cut all filler episodes to get the major threads done by the end of the season, but the Shadow War would have ended exactly like this just a couple of episodes later. The plot would have been the same, but just not this dense.
Of course it was Morden who murdered Adira. That was clear right away. Londo refused to cooperate with Morden, and on his threat, Londo told Morden that there is nothing he could take away from him. So Morden did some investigation and asked the guy who was talking to Vir to prepare Adira's arrival and found out. So, Morden arranged Adira's death and made it look like it was Refa.
Londo begging Vir to kill him to save his world is why he is my favorite character on the show. He does not just say that everything he does is for his people, he actually tries to do that, even flawed as he is. "Get the hell out of our galaxy!" is my second most favorite speech on the show. The most favorite is still to come. Here is my suggestion for a recap of this episode: "After Ivanova and Lorien gather the remaining First ones Sheridan and Delenn goads Vorlons and Shadows into a public telepathic call and orders them to get the hell out of the Galaxy. Meanwhile Londo must deal with consequences of Shadow presence on Centauri Prime even facing personal sacrifice and Vir gets what he wanted."
Mollari's arc is the most tragic in the show, all the way through and twenty years into the future. His pain only ends when he welcomes his fear and let's G'Kar kill him by mutual consent to save his people and leave Vir as Emperor.
It also highlights the resemblance between Vir and Brent. I keep thinking, Brent wants to play Londo in a remake of B5, but I think he should play Vir. His appearance and his personality, and his sense of morality and ethics, are so similar to Vir's!
"This is going to end with a big talk not a big battle, right?" Of COURSE it is. Considering the gigantic technological advantage the Vorlons and the Shadows have over all of us, how ELSE could it end? It's either this, or the Vorlons and Shadows do whatever they like and we just scurry away like little ants. JMS went for the former...
The only other way would have been to let Shadows and Vorlons eliminate each other ... but since those two were all about their question, there had to be a "talking out of the fight" ending.
Not to mention the whole point of the B5 station is for diplomacy and talking it out. I like the underlying philosophy shows instead of tells: strive for peace and understanding, but be unafraid to fight when it's the right course.
“You must kill me, Vir. Quickly. You must show them you have done it.” His loyalty to his people was greater than his ambition. - - - - - - - - - - “You must not kill the one who is dead.” As satisfying as it was to watch Vir get what he asked for, it might have been better if they hadn’t killed Morten. Then again, that dude was dangerous, and probably needed to die. Hard choices.
Really, we've already had a Ride of the Rohirrim moment when Delenn showed up to save B5 from Clarke's forces. Edit: I should note that Ride of the Rohirrrim is actually the relief of the seige of Minas Tirith. Helms Deep, in the book, is saved by Gandalf arriving with the tertiary character Erkenbrand and some foot soldiers, and is not nearly as dramatic as the film version.
65! Lol, No, if i vaguely remember from the old message boards, they were concerned about being cancelled after this. So they truncated some storylines down leading to what is arguably my favorite season of tv ever. I've always wondered how season 4/5 might have played out without that worry in the background. Hopefully the reboot gets going!
@threedoubleyoudotcom751 Ok that makes sense regarding the other arc stuff. Maybe move some of the season 5 fillers into 4. Which could have filled out some of the teep stuff from 5. Made it flow more perhaps Either way still some of the best TV made.
@threedoubleyoudotcom751 I really wonder why they screwed up Crusade that much ... a) the music is WRONG b) studio interference c) JMS writing EPISODIC TV is seriously WRONG (none of the episodes connect to anything and it is similar to original Star Trek ... "ship comes to problem, solves problem, flies away")
I definitely wasn’t thrilled with the final product we got. The problems with Crusade were numerous and well documented over the years. As for Chen, JMS wanted an otherworldly style of music to set a different tone than Franke’s bombastic space opera. For what it’s worth, I think Chen was improving as his music was actually starting to reflect what was happening on the screen. As with B5, there would be more standalone episodes at the start but there were some amazing twists on the way. The show was not intended to be as rigidly arc driven as B5 but the two unfilmed scripts, one of which was the Season One finale, were really good and would have kicked multiple story arcs into high gear.
@@Muck006"none of the episodes connect to anything" The shape of S1 is much more apparent if you watch Crusade in the order given in Lurkers' Guide (which is closer to what JMS wanted). Suffice to say that, yes, there is an arc, and a couple more elements would have been introduced in the back half, including some interesting stuff concerning Dureena. As for the music, having recently rewatched, it's fine apart from a couple of choices where the dramatic stings don't work. Chen was better at evoking an atmosphere of the mysterious. But no worse than the incessant "BWWWAAAAAAAHHHHHMMMMMM!!!!" musical stings to adverts that Franke gave us in the early years.
@threedoubleyoudotcom751 Definitely, some of the filler episodes, which were intended for Season 4, were moved to Season 5. But overall, the Shadow War wouldn't have lasted much longer than it did now.
In Australia this was playing on TV around the same time as DS9s Sacrifice of Angels came out on video (in those days we got new Star Trek on video long before it was on our TV) it was an amazing time to be a fan.
I'm sure I remember reading in one if JMS's old Genie posts that B5 is shown as a station with blue detailing against a blue nebula to highlight a palette that couldnt be done with compositing models on bluescreen.
A lot of fans at the time were disappointed with the way the end of the Shadow War ended but I loved it; a station dedicated to finding peaceful solutions actually finds a peaceful solution. Fun fact: the background of space in the episode is real imagery from the Hubble Space Telescope ('The Pillars of Creation' I think). IRL the nebula wouldn't appear as colourful to our eyes as the image used is a false colour one showing the distribution of various gases within the nebula. But it looks gorgeous so I'm willing to give them a pass!
At 11:00.... this was SUPPOSED to be later in season 4... but when word came down that B5 would be cancelled after Season 4, they accelerated the S4 storyline to wrap up early, and then compressed what was supposed to be Season 5 into the back half of season 4.
I have the feeling that this phrase should be applied to some OUTDATED concepts / IDEOLOGIES on this planet [the "really modern stuff" is part of it ... because it represents chaos/conflict/the Shadows ... and there are others that are "overly restricted" on the Vorlon side of it ... and BOTH are about "BELIEVING they are RIGHT/have THE TRUTH"].
'If the show ended right now, I'd be satisfied.' I can see why. Still... The two main interpretations of B5 as a metaphor are, it is about War, or then it is about Growth. If you see B5 as about War -- JMS himself said he wanted to make a statement about war as a phenomenon, what leads to it, how it grows more and more till it occupies all available space, how it finds its resolution, and then its aftermath... now we get to see the aftermath of this war. What will happen because of it. As we know from history, after a war, there's always something... history never stops... so what kinds of configurations will the future of our galaxy take? Where will we go, now that we are free to talk on our own legs? Same thing if you see B5 as about Growth: What will we do, now that we are adults? Not just stand here and do nothing, eh? We have to go somewhere... we have to do something... but what? It is a big battle to reach adulthood; we all remember what it was like being a teenager. Now, what comes next? What direction do we give to our lives, now that we are adults?... Life is always interesting.
glad I stayed till the end, lol. I'm sure you've heard it already but they weren't really sure they would get a fifth season, so certain things were... excelerated... won't say more than that till after you've seen the whole thing but yeah season 4 is a wild ride! I don't think any of us were prepared for the Great War to end just like that the first time around so props to you and Jeff for calling it. I'm just glad you weren't disappointed by it.
Yes! Vir's wave is absolutely one of the best moments in the series. Don't discount Londo aking Vir to kill him. I freaking love this episode! 65! Be seeing you for the discussion.
1. It was always my understanding JMS didn't know if season 5 was going to be picked up so, instead of risking telling an incomplete story, he rewrote season 4 & 5 as one season, thus the Shadow war finish happening in the middle. 2. While there might have been some artistic manipulation of the backgrounds it was actually noted at the time, remember this took place in the mid-90s, that we were receiving incredible high-resolution images from the Hubble Space Telescope and it was a lot of these real Galactic images that B5 used in their production
I recall that JMS said at the time, and has said since, that he didn't want this war to go on for very many episodes into the 4th season. The series wasn't going to be about battles. It would be about the characters and their growth, and how this conflict will have an impact on the galaxy. JMS also tried to avoid battles and rely instead on drama. Partly that was due to the budget, but I think mostly it was a storytelling decision. Characters in conflict is usually more interesting than pew-pew-pew. And there is still much to be resolved. It's why he was willing to take the offer of a 5th season from TNT once shooting of season 4 wrapped. Even with all you guys are going to see, there was still quite a lot to tell. And yes, the moment Vir gets what he wants is great. One of the best of the series. But recall that his answer wasn't a selfish desire, nor was it for power or wealth for himself or his people. It was for justice to be done. That's why his answer to the question didn't turn out tragically for him.
When it originally aired I was scared the season was over after that final scene of the episode. But then the brief teaser for the next episode came and I was relieved.
Ahhhhh! I just found this podcast and am on episode 6 with them. Right now they think of Vir as a bumbling fool. I’m so excited to follow them until the thumbnail is this face! I know they love the show as much as they should.
“It was the dawn of the Third Age of Mankind…” Remember Sinclair in the Season 1 opening credits? Now we entered the Third Age. Oh, and yes, this is very much like the Battle at the Black Gate, which marked the end of the Third Age of Middle-earth. Like the Elves who went into the West, with the power of the Three Rings having vanished, the remaining First Ones go to the Rim with Lorien. Leaving the galaxy for the younger races, until those will follow them, eventually, when they have grown old as well.
Exactly. It has always been there, front and center; the story is not about the Shadow War, the story is about the beginning of the Third Age. The Shadow war is an important part of how it got there, which is why many get confused in the first watch and forget what the show is about, but in the end, it all becomes clear.
Sorry to disagree there, because the Battle at the Black Gate did NOT have a "TALK your way out of it" end and instead relied on the ACTIONS of Frodo and Sam and the "hunger" of Gollum for the ring.
@@Muck006 It was a distraction as well. The Battle at the Black Gate was to draw Sauron‘s attention away from Orodruin. And the battle here was to keep Vorlons and Shadows busy and buy some time, while Ivanova and Lorien gather the remaining First Ones. And like the Battle at the Black Gate, this one ended all of a sudden.
“This should be season finale type stuff” it was supposed to be. The entire 4th season was to be the conclusion to this war but the imminent collapse of UPN forced JMS to combine the originally planned 4th and 5th seasons into one.
No, this was never supposed to be the S4 finale. The finale was going to be a cliff hanger which happens later in the season. The real time of Season 4's end would have been an interesting one
They ended just about everything here because they had no idea whether there would be a 5th series or not. This is also why the series ender, "Sleeping In Light" was filmed at the end of season 4.
Aahhhhh Mr Morden! i really wonder how Londo knew about Vir´s wish. My favorite explanation is, that Morden complained to him about how rude Vir was. "Ahh my good friend Mr Morden...do not worry...I will take care of it...Vir you get a raise"
I don't think Londo did know about Vir's wish. I think it was just a happy coincidence. Vir likely chose "head on a pike" for his wish, because it was probably a common tradition among the Centauri for those formally executed. All I think Londo knew was how Vir had always felt about Mr Morden - the rest just fell into place. "Prophecy will attend to itself." - Delenn
This is one of THEE episodes that I'm eagerly anticipating the discussion from you and Jeff come Monday. There's a lot to unpack, for even if most of this is resolution to the immediate conflict of the Shadow War, there's already foreshadowing (pardon the pun) of what is to come down the line. One thing that I will say is that I do wish the Shadow War ended a bit later in the season since the pivot to Corianna VI from attacking Z'Ha'dum happens very suddenly. This makes me think the Armada of Younger Races was going to have at least one more major battle prior to the end, but I could be mistaken. Just as much as I couldn't wait to see your reaction to this episode, I can't wait to see your "Brent Watches" segment for S4E7!
The original plan was to have the war last about two or three more episodes, but the likelihood of not getting season 5 forced JMS to accelerate the pace.
@@Babylon5FortheFirstTime I did. I don't always agree with what you guys say, but I almost always really enjoy it even when I don't agree - and I don't recall ever actually disliking any of your videos. I can't say the same for every person I have followed. Honestly, I have seen a lot of people who disliked this solution - guess they wanted a big epic battle and felt let down with a non-combat solution. So I wondered how you would react to it. I'm 100% with you on this. To me, this is a fantastic conclusion to this conflict, I guess some people don't quite get what JMS was saying with it. Looking forward to Monday's show.
A while ago, I was wondering if you guys would be disappointed with how the Great War ended. Then I realized you guys would probably appreciate that it ended diplomatically. Oh, I also noticed the last time I watched this that Londo slumped down besides a picture of himself. I feel like there's potentially a lot of symbolism there. Like he did so much for his self image, and in the end, that's all he had left (and Vir).
It was Morden who arranged it one of the last people to disembark the liner was a man that Londo asked if there were anyone else aboard. Morden is later paying the man diamonds
The reason the war was wrapped up so early in the season is that they were not sure they were going to have a season 5 at this time, so JMS worked on getting stories wrapped up by the end of season 4 but then TNT picked up the series for a 5th season.
'They would not... They would not do it just to get me.' Riight?... At this point I remember thinking, wouldn't it be poetic justice of the highest ground if Londo, great big Centauri patriot that he is, ended up being the one specific reason why the Vorlons torched Centauri Prime?... Great Centauri Republic, Yeah!...
Hey Brett - the part about Morden setting up Adira's murder - I suggest you just wait for your official rewatch in Babylon 5 for the Second Time, if you do it.
There was a reason for the end of the war happening so soon in season 4. The Shadow War was a major part of the series story... but not all of it. And according to JMS he did not know if they would get a season 5. So he had to just about wrap up a lot. It was not till the near end of season 4 did TNT show up and take on the show for season 5. So it went from syndication to network in season 5 on. And that helped and hurt them.
And remember, 'the dawn of the Third Age of mankind'... that we had heard in Londo's voice since the first movie, The Gathering? Here it is... in the first age, we were non-technological beings living within our planets' biospheres; that was the First Age, call it Childhood... then we became self-aware and built civilizations, but under the guidance (or if you prefer with the interference) of the First Ones; that was the Second Age, call it Youth... And now we're ready to stand alone, and 'make our own mistakes' without any First Ones holding our hands (or manipulating our genome); that is the Third Age, call it Adulthood... B5 is a parable for growth, isn't it? 🙂
Well the season 1 was the start so you might expect a few episodes to be starters but season 2 the even what seem lesser episodes are conected to other parts in the show . Just like those premonitions of londos dreams , the warning of the late emperors wife that he had 5 paths to take , and wasted 2 . and the technomages warning . what seems like a rtivial moment becomes a major event later on .
The reason this feels like a season finale is because it was supposed to be. It was looking like the show wasn't going to get it's 5th season, so The Great War was cut down to a few episodes, and most of what was supposed to be season 5 got shoehorned into season 4. This meant that when they did get their 5th season it felt very improvised, because it was.
Actually, it was not meant to be the series finale it was episode 17, "The Face of the Enemy," and the following episode, "Intersections in Real Time," was season 5 frist episode. I've put the names of the episodes, so there will be on spoilers
This is a great aspect of this show - it shows the after effect of the great war .Its like what if Lord of the rings did a fourth movie showing what were the long term effects of the trilogy . Or in our history what have been the ramifications of what transpired in WW2 ,short and long term .
This whole series was inspired by JMS's drunken parents' dysfunctional marriage, and the way they constantly demanded that he and his sister choose sides.
Yes, this episode was supposed to be season's 4 finale. JMS was informed that B5 would not be renewed for a 5th season, so he was forced to wrap up all the arcs in season 4 instead of playing them out through season 5. The show was saved by a surprised renewal at the end of season 4 and thus season 5 was made. It's a bit sad that the war was cut short, some of those episodes were fantastics and I imagine more of them would have been just as good. On the other hand, we got more story than was first planed with season 5 being focused on others things that are very good as well. You were really great at figuring out what was gonna happen in this episode, the crown bellongs to you after this ;)
I was really looking forward to seeing your reaction to the scene with Lorien and Ivanova talking about her skepticism about him being the first one. That is one of my favorite scenes in all of scifi, and I think what Lorien has to say is very much a 'Star Trek' message. I'm very surprised you didn't include that scene.
It’s a lovely scene. In the lorerunner’s videos, he says how easy it is to write an ancient immortal character as cold, aloof, uncaring. But Lorien is sympathetic and almost envies the mortals their brief naïveté.
The reason this was episode 6 instead of the finale was because they didn't think the show was coming back for another season for JMS started wrapping things up in the time he had left
It was SUPPOSED to be Season Finale Type Stuff! At this point, JMS and the production team has been told Season 4 was going to be the final season of the show. What you're watching is them FRANTICALLY scrambling to cram the originally planned Season 4 AND Season 5 story beats into the rest of Season 4. And then, at the very end of Season 4 Production, they were picked up by TNT for a Fifth and final season! That sequence of events profoundly effects the pacing and content of the final two seasons of the show.
They didn't paint space in B5. These are NASA's Hubble images, back when it first came online. It was a legendary combination of those images and the first workable photoshop. That's why space looks so amazing in B5. It's the real stuff.
For the later seasons they got Hubble images, including the Pillars of Creation, but from the start it was always a conscious effort to depict space differently than the star fields of Star Trek and to add colorful nebulae. It really sets it apart.
Sadly space doesnt look this colourful in every direction, but since they took the images with lots of bright lights for all the backgrounds [to have neat contrast for the darker ships in front, otherwise they'd have to turn them into "disco balls"] ... some people might have misconceptions about how space really is like.
@@Muck006 I know, the colors are usually added during processing of the images, and because light travels at a constant, we're seeing how space looked like hundreds and thousands of years ago. But those are still real images of real space.
Now with the end of the shadow war a question. Given that the war is analogous to the cold war and that main POV given by the younger is that of the proxies in the war by proxy that was the cold war. Between the Shadows and the Vorlons which most closely matches with the US and which the USSR. It is my opinion that the shadow match most closely with the US being that there idea of improvement through conflict maps fairly well to the ideal of may the best rise to the top though competition that is prevalent through much of the US culture, there is also the whole assassination thing they like to do which nicely matches with CIA plots. The Vorlons on the other hand match roughly with the USSR as they prefer order (centralized control) where all parts of the system conform to there ideals (hear comes the inquisitor) and obey the commands given.
My favorite scene of the series is still to come. No spoilers, but it's just a scene with 2 people talking to one another. Sure some people know what I'm talking about.
This is what showed me that you can conclude a plot without a season finale or a cliffhanger because the universe keeps going...this is what people who hate Season 5 never understand: things keep going, that doesn't UNDO what came before. Also Brent, don't forget that the TV movie THIRDSPACE happens in between this episode and the season finale. Remember to watch it at the right interval because it is like a big episode.
This also reminds me of the DS9 episode Battle Lines *bzzzt* Vorlons and Shadows were doomed to fight each other every 1000 years for eternity. Until now.
My take was that the Shadows and Vorlons only left because they were convinced by Lorian, Sheridan and the fleet was a minor obstacle they would have wiped out, and the other 1st Ones would have returned to their sleeping places. My question is, why NOW, did Lorian finally act? The war had been going on for 1000's of years.
because Sheridan was the first to be able to reach him proving that the young races where now able to take over the galaxy themselves. And I don't think they only left due to Lorian, their fight of ideology really needed the reason behind the war to be secret and now it was out for everyone so that ship had sailed.
(21:30) Except that what follows is even better than the Shadow War; the best part of this season overall. MHO, obviously. And what follows *is* JMS borrowing from Tolkien. He's borrowing the stuff that Jackson left out of the movie and it is one of the best denouements ever written. Again, MHO. :)
Brent, I agree. Vir waving up at Morden is one of the greatest moments in the series. Paying off after years!
Yeah, it’s so great. The only one who actually got what he wanted when Morden asked was Vir.
and to me it's because Ed Wasser did a fantastic job in portraying Mr Morden.
The only thing that would have made it better, imo, is if they hadn't shown the flashback, and just let the wave stand on its own as a fun easter egg or a treat to discover on repeat viewings.
Y'know when you have a TV moment that makes you truly smile, that was this moment in this show.
"Damn Straight" ;-)
Londo was willing to have himself killed to save Centauri Prime. Which makes him the diametral opposite of Cartagia.
I'm shocked he didn't comment on that in the moment. Also when I rewatched the episode I was surprised how quickly it moves on from there. It doesn't' hang and give it time. Londo needs to ask Vir to do this, and we need to think about it.
Londo's arc is one of the most tragic in sci-fi history, to say Peter Jurasik was born to play this role is in no way an overstatement. RIP all the B5 crew that have travelled to beyond the rim.
@@babybalrog Brent doesn't comment on a lot of crucial details...
The easiest way to TEST the question of "will they destroy the planet just for me" would have been to immediately leave the planet in a shuttle.
For true redemption Londo has to surrender himself to the Narn to answer for his war crimes - or at least face trial.
*_If you can't say what you're meaning, you can never mean what you're saying. The details are everything._*
The best appeal for KNOWING DEFINITIONS and BEING PRECISE WITH LANGUAGE I have ever heard. One of Babylon 5's wisdoms.
I took this to heart when I watched this as a kid... now it just causes problems with my partner who believes in that whole "words only make up 30% of what is communicated" and "you must reading between the lines" povs so the things I say just basically goes through a filter of what he thinks I'm saying, then I get frequently misquoted, told that I'm too literal and use his words against him unfairly all the time because words mean what he means, not what the dictionary says 🥲
@@Belbecat Emojis are "emotional script" ... and because of this there is no precise definition for them. Just ask an "emoji-spammer" for a definion for them. This is one of the current wars on PRECISE SPEECH.
"Interpretation between the lines" is BAD, because they arent fixed and societies - especially LAW and SCIENCE - cant run on ambiguity and interpretation. Concerning "law" there is the brilliant *_"using the letter of the law to defeat the spirit of the law"_* though, which goes against the "precise meaning" (but laws are typically NOT WRITTEN PRECISELY on purpose).
The bottom line of the saying is the TOWER OF BABEL story ... if we dont mean the same when we say "red" or "blue" or "gang" ... we are talking past each other and even the "double negative" used in some american communities is enabling misunderstandings.
I’ve been using that line literally since 1997. And everyone I try it on rolls their eyes 😂
@@chrisnielsen9885 Shallow people in a shallow world. Plus English is not the clearest of languages.
"The way they painted space..."
They didn't paint them so much as use existing pics. Those are Hubble images which, at the time, were pretty much brand new.
There are 3 moments in the show that made me literally stand up from my seat and clap:
- Zach tossing the Nightwatch armband on the floor
- Sheridan declaring independence
- Vir waving at Morden's decapitated head.
Each of these is so satisfying not because of the moment itself, but how much it releases the tension from what came before.
As Londo is trashing his room in rage pay attention to what he doesn't destroy, what he collapses next to. His portrait isn't out of vanity. It is watching over something, someone, who is Very special to him. Who's in the urn...
That is such a good catch. And such a great example of what makes the whole show as great as it is.
“Morning Gentlemen, this is your wake-up call!” - John Nukem Sheridan.
John gets some great speeches - including in this episode - but not a lot of great one-liners. This one is really good though.
@@kevinfrank5527 IMHO "now get the hell out of our galaxy" is another one :)
@@Henrik_Holst it is a great one but it also is part of a larger, and very good, speech. So I guess we can put it in both categories.
@@kevinfrank5527 true
Only the second oldest sentient race the Shadows and the youngest of the space fairing races the Humans understood the value of fusion weapons. Worth noting methinks.
"What do you want?" - The Shadows' question.
And Vir Cotto is the only one who was happy with what he got.
And funnily enough he said "I'd like to live just long enough....". Vorlons almost delivered that second part.
Interesting bit of side trivia here: "Into the Fire" was the name used for a Babylon 5 video game that was being developed in the late 90s. The game was primarily a space combat sim, but allowed the player to rise through the ranks from a Starfury pilot to a fleet commander. The game was ultimately cancelled in 1999 during a restructuring of the publisher, Sierra Online. Tons of footage was filmed with the original cast on the original B5 sets for the films cut scenes/story. This footage was actually the last footage shot on the original sets before they were dismantled. Unfortunately, after the cancellation, most of the footage was lost or destroyed and has never been seen outside of the development team. Playable alpha versions of the game can be found floating around online.
To this day I can still quote Vir's wish word for word. A crowning moment.
The shock of this episode happening 6 episodes in the fourth season resonates with all first time viewers. I was surprised that you and Jeff both were catching on that the war might end in this episode. What happens next? Well, all I can say is -- my favorite episode of the season has yet to be watched.
Well they started looking at the show from a LOTR lens so it makes sense. Also if we're being real, where could the story with the Shadows and Vorlons go after they brought out planet killers and multiple fleets of thousands of ships, where a single ship can take on multiple younger race ships at once? There really wasn't much more that could be done with the conflict after the Summoning.
@@GeneralDingo Yep, diplomacy/reasoning with them was pretty much out the window and against superior forces there was nothing you could do.
@@GeneralDingo Correct. This is the equivalent to the Battle at the Black Gate. And What happened after Sauron was finally defeated? The Three Rings lost their power as well and the Elves went into the West (of course, they already started, like the Technomages), leaving Middle-earth behind for Men. That was the beginning of the Fourth Age in Middle-earth. Here, it is the beginning of the Third Age. And just like the LotR, there is a little space for more: The Shire had to be freed from Saruman. And, of course, there are the Appendices which explain what happened to the members of the Fellowship after the War of the Ring.
@@GeneralDingoJMS said this would have been padded out to 9 or so episodes had they not felt the threat of cancellation breathing down their necks, but it would have ended the same.
@@jmwild1 Yeah, allegedly, the Shadow War was going to end at season midpoint or maybe even two thirds of the way in max with the current S4E18 being the original finale. As I said, it's speculative.
Londo telling Morden, "I'll have to have that painted over," is one of my favorite lines from this one. First time I heard that line I sucked in air through my teeth for 5 solid seconds.
I can never hear that line without immediately going "I'm thinking... pastels!"
Thank you for reacting to the Vir moment the same as I did many years ago! Also my favorite in the entire series!
"Will you come with us?" "Then we will not be alone?" I love these lines from the Vorlon and Shadow. Like children when faced by Lorien.
The whole Shadows philosophy of "grow through struggle and conflict" always reminds me of the comment from Harry Lime in *_"The Third Man":_*
_"After all, it’s not that awful. You know what the fellow said - in Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace. And what did that produce? The cuckoo clock."_
Thing is... its a perfectly valid philosophy, the Shadows unfortunately, took it to the extreme... like any sort of fanatics tend to do. They arent the nicest people, but if they toned down their extremism the Shadows were probably alot more fun and personable to know.
Its like a kid learning to ride a bike with a parent helping, the Vorlons sit there and tell the kid everything, every rule before even letting the kid touch the bike... The kid then takes a ride and falls off the Vorlons just sigh and frown, with a throw away 'You werent listening', they walk off leaving the kid to get up and follow them... the Shadows are the kind of parent who just gives the kid a bike cold and says 'Go on, hop on and ride it', then as the kid wobbles along then falls off scrapping their knee they laugh at the kids situation, BUT they walk over pick the kid up and say, 'try again'... and yeah they'll laugh everytime the kid falls... but they seem like the ones who in a weird way 'care' for their underlings, unlike the Vorlons.
One of the many things I love about B5 is JMS' philosophy regarding big events like the ending of the Shadow war. He always likes to point out that things are never ended neatly, that the Aftermath of a cataclysmic event is just as, if not more, important than the event itself. So him ending the Shadow war 6 episodes into the 3rd of 5 seasons indicates how much fallout there will be from this war.
4th.
@@Duke00x and Season 5 hadn't been picked up yet...
Oh I can't wait for this!!! 😁 Episode is soooo quotable! :D
"On any other day Mr. Morden you would be wrong ... today is a very special day!" 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣🤣😂🤣😂
Adira 🥺💔😭😭😭
Ah Vir! The only one who truly gets what he wants from the Shadows 😂🤣😂
Now you come to mention it...
my favorite lines in all of B5 is in this episode.
"ah Mr Morden I see they found you good good"
and
"what are you going to do Mollari blow up the island"
"Actually now that you mention it" KABOOOOM
Yes Rico..... kaboom 😁
any sentence that starts with 'ah mr morden'
Oh no Londo!!! Here’s your Snickers!! Too late.
Okay, we had Gandalf/Sheridan falling into the deep chasm at Khazad-dûm / Za'ha'dum, only to come back later because the mission isn't completed and now the end of the third age, with all the magic beings fading away, leaving Middle Earth/The Galaxy to the lesser / younger ones taking over.
Lorien Told him to "jump now" as the Whitestar crashed in to detonate two fusion warheads. He was waiting for Sheridan for millions of years because Sheridan was the Nexus around which the Universe would pivot. Lorien's species died out through lack of change as the Shadows, Vorlons, Minbari, Centauri, Nan etc were dying out through lack of change. When Kosh says "they are dying" and Sheridan says "Who? The Nan or Centauri?" Kosh replies "Yes".
Of course you loved the scene where Vir sees Mr. Morden's head on a pike. We all did. Ooohh, so THAT's what that conversation was supposed to foreshadow! 🙂
Vir’s the only one who got exactly what he wanted.
@@sdfried4877 Not entirely ... because Vir actually wanted Londo NOT to start the whole involvement with the Shadows. This is his second wish.
@@Muck006 True, but of course I’m referring specifically to conversations with Mr Morden.
I think that the flashback was unnecessary, though. Everybody would have recalled that scene from In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum.
@@sdfried4877 Vir was the only one who didn't have a selfish motivation.
This was accidentally done, I mean, the Shadow War wasn't supposed to end so soon, but JMS had no choice. The studio was about to cancel the show on the 4th season without giving him a 5th, and he didn't want to leave any storylines behind. And because of this, nobody ever expected it to end like this. But it did. In 6 episodes the entire Narn-Centauri, Vorlon-Shadow wars have been resolved. *Or at least we as viewers are meant to think so* . And the beauty as well, the Shadows and the Vorlons just couldn't be defeated through force. They're just too powerful. Neither of them are inherently bad, they're different. Both had good intentions at heart at first. But after eons, they lost their way. So reminding them of that, with Lorien, basically the mentor and sort of father of all, backing up the younger races, the Vorlons and the Shadows were forced to see the error of their way. It's a beautiful story, but we're not yet done. Babylon 5 still has all of season 4 to go. And oh boy, gonna be interesting to see what you think of it.
"Studio interference" is the bane of fandom / good TV.
Yeah, which is what, despite it being true that JMS feared for the end of B5 in this season, I can't but think that he wanted the Vorlon-Shadow war to end way before the end of the season anyway. It's not like he simply had to do now what he was going to leave for Ep. 21 or something -- no, he knew there was nothing we could do with the difference in technology. Hell, we would have lost to the Minbari if it weren't for this 'they have Minari souls' thing! Let alone Shadows and Vorlons... No, the answer had to be something non-military, something more philosophical. That's what these two were -- philosophical viewpoints for which we had to find some kind of synthesis, or 'third way'.
@@Asehpe the three-edged sword finds the way!
TOO SOON, they did not need this till the end of the season
@@scottkrametbauer90 I wouldn't say it's too soon. They have been asking why this feels like a season finale, and it sorta is. It's not spoiling any of the plot that is to come or what to expect by the end of the season.
14:54 That’s a favorite moment for a lot of dedicated B5 fans. Certainly on everyone’s short list. And there’s more scenes on those lists in this episode alone, as you know by now.
16:50 As much as you have to despise what Londo does at times in this series, you have to admit that there’s still at least some nobility left in him here.
The Vorlon vs. Shadow/Order vs. Chaos message really reminds me of the fantasy of Michael Moorcock. He had gods and champions of Law and Chaos, and a necessary Balance between them. Life can’t exist when Order or Chaos becomes too powerful; it’s only in Balance that progress can be made. Also reminds me of Brandon Sanderson’s Mistborn series, with Ruin and Preservation. Neither one can actually create when alone.
I love the Vir Morden scene. Great payoff. My favorite moment is yet to come, and I absolutely still smile when I think of it.
The "Get the hell out of our galaxy!" speech was the first thing I saw of Babylon 5, and what made me watch the series. Even knowing it was coming, that moment made all of the Soulhunters and Egg People and King Arthurs worth it.
Also Vir getting what he wants never fails to make me clap my hands and giggle like a child.
The “network” Babylon 5 was airing on was discussing canceling the show after Season 4. JMS made the decision to combine Seasons 4 and 5 into one, which is why the Shadow War seems to resolve much earlier in the season than it should. The remaining episodes of Season 4 deal with what originally had been planned for Season 5. A series finale was even filmed.
Babylon 5 was ultimately canceled, and the show moved to TNT, where a new 5th season to the show had to be created. The series finale filmed in Season 4 was aired at the end of Season 5 and beautifully capstones the entire series.
Not exactly. JMS had to streamline season 4 and cut all filler episodes to get the major threads done by the end of the season, but the Shadow War would have ended exactly like this just a couple of episodes later. The plot would have been the same, but just not this dense.
Of course it was Morden who murdered Adira. That was clear right away. Londo refused to cooperate with Morden, and on his threat, Londo told Morden that there is nothing he could take away from him. So Morden did some investigation and asked the guy who was talking to Vir to prepare Adira's arrival and found out. So, Morden arranged Adira's death and made it look like it was Refa.
Londo's mind was concerned with Refa at the time though ... so it wasnt "obvious" for him.
@@Muck006 I meant, it was obvious for the audience, not for Londo. We saw Morden approach that guy and telling him that he was looking for Vir Cotto.
Yeah, we literally see Morden paying the assassin in Interludes and Examinations.
@@BlueSunHiredGun Correct. Just before he is notified that the Vorlons attacked the Shadows.
Mr Morden (or to channel my inner Mollawi, Miisterrr Morrdon aaah") has to be one of the greatest antagonists of TV history.
Vir's wave will be his meme and background for the rest of his life
Londo begging Vir to kill him to save his world is why he is my favorite character on the show. He does not just say that everything he does is for his people, he actually tries to do that, even flawed as he is.
"Get the hell out of our galaxy!" is my second most favorite speech on the show. The most favorite is still to come. Here is my suggestion for a recap of this episode: "After Ivanova and Lorien gather the remaining First ones Sheridan and Delenn goads Vorlons and Shadows into a public telepathic call and orders them to get the hell out of the Galaxy. Meanwhile Londo must deal with consequences of Shadow presence on Centauri Prime even facing personal sacrifice and Vir gets what he wanted."
Mollari's arc is the most tragic in the show, all the way through and twenty years into the future. His pain only ends when he welcomes his fear and let's G'Kar kill him by mutual consent to save his people and leave Vir as Emperor.
They requested that we not do connections like that. Let them get it.
This episode is why B5 is the best series ever. Perfection in story telling and originality.
Farscape was more fun but B5 had more depth.
The thumbnail may be the way everybody felt as we got that flashback!
It also highlights the resemblance between Vir and Brent. I keep thinking, Brent wants to play Londo in a remake of B5, but I think he should play Vir. His appearance and his personality, and his sense of morality and ethics, are so similar to Vir's!
"This is going to end with a big talk not a big battle, right?" Of COURSE it is. Considering the gigantic technological advantage the Vorlons and the Shadows have over all of us, how ELSE could it end? It's either this, or the Vorlons and Shadows do whatever they like and we just scurry away like little ants. JMS went for the former...
The only other way would have been to let Shadows and Vorlons eliminate each other ... but since those two were all about their question, there had to be a "talking out of the fight" ending.
Not to mention the whole point of the B5 station is for diplomacy and talking it out. I like the underlying philosophy shows instead of tells: strive for peace and understanding, but be unafraid to fight when it's the right course.
“You must kill me, Vir. Quickly. You must show them you have done it.” His loyalty to his people was greater than his ambition.
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“You must not kill the one who is dead.” As satisfying as it was to watch Vir get what he asked for, it might have been better if they hadn’t killed Morten. Then again, that dude was dangerous, and probably needed to die. Hard choices.
Loved it! Great reaction mate. Yes the moment with Vir waving at Morden is my favourite too.
Really, we've already had a Ride of the Rohirrim moment when Delenn showed up to save B5 from Clarke's forces.
Edit: I should note that Ride of the Rohirrrim is actually the relief of the seige of Minas Tirith. Helms Deep, in the book, is saved by Gandalf arriving with the tertiary character Erkenbrand and some foot soldiers, and is not nearly as dramatic as the film version.
Yes, it's a different LotR moment which is referenced in this episode!
65! Lol, No, if i vaguely remember from the old message boards, they were concerned about being cancelled after this. So they truncated some storylines down leading to what is arguably my favorite season of tv ever. I've always wondered how season 4/5 might have played out without that worry in the background. Hopefully the reboot gets going!
@threedoubleyoudotcom751
Ok that makes sense regarding the other arc stuff.
Maybe move some of the season 5 fillers into 4.
Which could have filled out some of the teep stuff from 5. Made it flow more perhaps
Either way still some of the best TV made.
@threedoubleyoudotcom751 I really wonder why they screwed up Crusade that much ...
a) the music is WRONG
b) studio interference
c) JMS writing EPISODIC TV is seriously WRONG (none of the episodes connect to anything and it is similar to original Star Trek ... "ship comes to problem, solves problem, flies away")
I definitely wasn’t thrilled with the final product we got. The problems with Crusade were numerous and well documented over the years.
As for Chen, JMS wanted an otherworldly style of music to set a different tone than Franke’s bombastic space opera. For what it’s worth, I think Chen was improving as his music was actually starting to reflect what was happening on the screen.
As with B5, there would be more standalone episodes at the start but there were some amazing twists on the way. The show was not intended to be as rigidly arc driven as B5 but the two unfilmed scripts, one of which was the Season One finale, were really good and would have kicked multiple story arcs into high gear.
@@Muck006"none of the episodes connect to anything"
The shape of S1 is much more apparent if you watch Crusade in the order given in Lurkers' Guide (which is closer to what JMS wanted). Suffice to say that, yes, there is an arc, and a couple more elements would have been introduced in the back half, including some interesting stuff concerning Dureena.
As for the music, having recently rewatched, it's fine apart from a couple of choices where the dramatic stings don't work. Chen was better at evoking an atmosphere of the mysterious. But no worse than the incessant "BWWWAAAAAAAHHHHHMMMMMM!!!!" musical stings to adverts that Franke gave us in the early years.
@threedoubleyoudotcom751 Definitely, some of the filler episodes, which were intended for Season 4, were moved to Season 5. But overall, the Shadow War wouldn't have lasted much longer than it did now.
In Australia this was playing on TV around the same time as DS9s Sacrifice of Angels came out on video (in those days we got new Star Trek on video long before it was on our TV) it was an amazing time to be a fan.
I'm sure I remember reading in one if JMS's old Genie posts that B5 is shown as a station with blue detailing against a blue nebula to highlight a palette that couldnt be done with compositing models on bluescreen.
A lot of fans at the time were disappointed with the way the end of the Shadow War ended but I loved it; a station dedicated to finding peaceful solutions actually finds a peaceful solution.
Fun fact: the background of space in the episode is real imagery from the Hubble Space Telescope ('The Pillars of Creation' I think). IRL the nebula wouldn't appear as colourful to our eyes as the image used is a false colour one showing the distribution of various gases within the nebula. But it looks gorgeous so I'm willing to give them a pass!
At 11:00.... this was SUPPOSED to be later in season 4... but when word came down that B5 would be cancelled after Season 4, they accelerated the S4 storyline to wrap up early, and then compressed what was supposed to be Season 5 into the back half of season 4.
anyone who is a B5 fan waits for this moment every single time
Some good predictions for this episode. Next one might be a bit tougher. How do you follow that?
We're watching Babylon 5 for the first time... Now get the hell out of our galaxy!! 😂
I have the feeling that this phrase should be applied to some OUTDATED concepts / IDEOLOGIES on this planet [the "really modern stuff" is part of it ... because it represents chaos/conflict/the Shadows ... and there are others that are "overly restricted" on the Vorlon side of it ... and BOTH are about "BELIEVING they are RIGHT/have THE TRUTH"].
@@Muck006 And then there are those who claim that the “really modern stuff” is the “alternative truth”.
'If the show ended right now, I'd be satisfied.' I can see why. Still... The two main interpretations of B5 as a metaphor are, it is about War, or then it is about Growth. If you see B5 as about War -- JMS himself said he wanted to make a statement about war as a phenomenon, what leads to it, how it grows more and more till it occupies all available space, how it finds its resolution, and then its aftermath... now we get to see the aftermath of this war. What will happen because of it. As we know from history, after a war, there's always something... history never stops... so what kinds of configurations will the future of our galaxy take? Where will we go, now that we are free to talk on our own legs? Same thing if you see B5 as about Growth: What will we do, now that we are adults? Not just stand here and do nothing, eh? We have to go somewhere... we have to do something... but what? It is a big battle to reach adulthood; we all remember what it was like being a teenager. Now, what comes next? What direction do we give to our lives, now that we are adults?...
Life is always interesting.
glad I stayed till the end, lol. I'm sure you've heard it already but they weren't really sure they would get a fifth season, so certain things were... excelerated... won't say more than that till after you've seen the whole thing but yeah season 4 is a wild ride! I don't think any of us were prepared for the Great War to end just like that the first time around so props to you and Jeff for calling it. I'm just glad you weren't disappointed by it.
Yes! Vir's wave is absolutely one of the best moments in the series.
Don't discount Londo aking Vir to kill him.
I freaking love this episode!
65!
Be seeing you for the discussion.
1. It was always my understanding JMS didn't know if season 5 was going to be picked up so, instead of risking telling an incomplete story, he rewrote season 4 & 5 as one season, thus the Shadow war finish happening in the middle.
2. While there might have been some artistic manipulation of the backgrounds it was actually noted at the time, remember this took place in the mid-90s, that we were receiving incredible high-resolution images from the Hubble Space Telescope and it was a lot of these real Galactic images that B5 used in their production
I recall that JMS said at the time, and has said since, that he didn't want this war to go on for very many episodes into the 4th season. The series wasn't going to be about battles. It would be about the characters and their growth, and how this conflict will have an impact on the galaxy. JMS also tried to avoid battles and rely instead on drama. Partly that was due to the budget, but I think mostly it was a storytelling decision. Characters in conflict is usually more interesting than pew-pew-pew. And there is still much to be resolved. It's why he was willing to take the offer of a 5th season from TNT once shooting of season 4 wrapped. Even with all you guys are going to see, there was still quite a lot to tell.
And yes, the moment Vir gets what he wants is great. One of the best of the series. But recall that his answer wasn't a selfish desire, nor was it for power or wealth for himself or his people. It was for justice to be done. That's why his answer to the question didn't turn out tragically for him.
When it originally aired I was scared the season was over after that final scene of the episode. But then the brief teaser for the next episode came and I was relieved.
There's me seeing this and settling down to watch it at 18:00 only to realise that I still have to wait a day.... bummer.
Ahhhhh! I just found this podcast and am on episode 6 with them. Right now they think of Vir as a bumbling fool. I’m so excited to follow them until the thumbnail is this face! I know they love the show as much as they should.
Welcome to the show! Season 2 is a little rough, but stick with them it is well worth it!
“It was the dawn of the Third Age of Mankind…” Remember Sinclair in the Season 1 opening credits? Now we entered the Third Age.
Oh, and yes, this is very much like the Battle at the Black Gate, which marked the end of the Third Age of Middle-earth. Like the Elves who went into the West, with the power of the Three Rings having vanished, the remaining First Ones go to the Rim with Lorien. Leaving the galaxy for the younger races, until those will follow them, eventually, when they have grown old as well.
Exactly. It has always been there, front and center; the story is not about the Shadow War, the story is about the beginning of the Third Age. The Shadow war is an important part of how it got there, which is why many get confused in the first watch and forget what the show is about, but in the end, it all becomes clear.
Sorry to disagree there, because the Battle at the Black Gate did NOT have a "TALK your way out of it" end and instead relied on the ACTIONS of Frodo and Sam and the "hunger" of Gollum for the ring.
@@Muck006 It was a distraction as well. The Battle at the Black Gate was to draw Sauron‘s attention away from Orodruin. And the battle here was to keep Vorlons and Shadows busy and buy some time, while Ivanova and Lorien gather the remaining First Ones. And like the Battle at the Black Gate, this one ended all of a sudden.
“This should be season finale type stuff” it was supposed to be. The entire 4th season was to be the conclusion to this war but the imminent collapse of UPN forced JMS to combine the originally planned 4th and 5th seasons into one.
No, this was never supposed to be the S4 finale. The finale was going to be a cliff hanger which happens later in the season. The real time of Season 4's end would have been an interesting one
They ended just about everything here because they had no idea whether there would be a 5th series or not. This is also why the series ender, "Sleeping In Light" was filmed at the end of season 4.
If you check the credits you will see JPL, a NASA lab that provided the space backgrounds.
Aahhhhh Mr Morden!
i really wonder how Londo knew about Vir´s wish.
My favorite explanation is, that Morden complained to him about how rude Vir was.
"Ahh my good friend Mr Morden...do not worry...I will take care of it...Vir you get a raise"
I don't think Londo did know about Vir's wish. I think it was just a happy coincidence.
Vir likely chose "head on a pike" for his wish, because it was probably a common tradition among the Centauri for those formally executed. All I think Londo knew was how Vir had always felt about Mr Morden - the rest just fell into place.
"Prophecy will attend to itself." - Delenn
This is one of THEE episodes that I'm eagerly anticipating the discussion from you and Jeff come Monday. There's a lot to unpack, for even if most of this is resolution to the immediate conflict of the Shadow War, there's already foreshadowing (pardon the pun) of what is to come down the line.
One thing that I will say is that I do wish the Shadow War ended a bit later in the season since the pivot to Corianna VI from attacking Z'Ha'dum happens very suddenly. This makes me think the Armada of Younger Races was going to have at least one more major battle prior to the end, but I could be mistaken.
Just as much as I couldn't wait to see your reaction to this episode, I can't wait to see your "Brent Watches" segment for S4E7!
The original plan was to have the war last about two or three more episodes, but the likelihood of not getting season 5 forced JMS to accelerate the pace.
Looking forward to your reaction. I wasn't able to be here live this time, but I got here the moment I could.
Hope you enjoyed it!
@@Babylon5FortheFirstTime I did. I don't always agree with what you guys say, but I almost always really enjoy it even when I don't agree - and I don't recall ever actually disliking any of your videos. I can't say the same for every person I have followed.
Honestly, I have seen a lot of people who disliked this solution - guess they wanted a big epic battle and felt let down with a non-combat solution. So I wondered how you would react to it. I'm 100% with you on this. To me, this is a fantastic conclusion to this conflict, I guess some people don't quite get what JMS was saying with it.
Looking forward to Monday's show.
A while ago, I was wondering if you guys would be disappointed with how the Great War ended. Then I realized you guys would probably appreciate that it ended diplomatically.
Oh, I also noticed the last time I watched this that Londo slumped down besides a picture of himself. I feel like there's potentially a lot of symbolism there. Like he did so much for his self image, and in the end, that's all he had left (and Vir).
Remember, Vir said 'I'd like to live just long enough to - ' - and he would have, except for the distraction that sent the planet-killer away...
It was Morden who arranged it one of the last people to disembark the liner was a man that Londo asked if there were anyone else aboard.
Morden is later paying the man diamonds
The reason the war was wrapped up so early in the season is that they were not sure they were going to have a season 5 at this time, so JMS worked on getting stories wrapped up by the end of season 4 but then TNT picked up the series for a 5th season.
'They would not... They would not do it just to get me.' Riight?... At this point I remember thinking, wouldn't it be poetic justice of the highest ground if Londo, great big Centauri patriot that he is, ended up being the one specific reason why the Vorlons torched Centauri Prime?... Great Centauri Republic, Yeah!...
I really wish JMS had received confirmation of B5's season 5 renewal much earlier.
One of the best scenes in the entire series. Master class story arc.
As is the whole sequence of Londo taking out the Shadows. "Now that you mention it...."
Hey Brett - the part about Morden setting up Adira's murder - I suggest you just wait for your official rewatch in Babylon 5 for the Second Time, if you do it.
There was a reason for the end of the war happening so soon in season 4. The Shadow War was a major part of the series story... but not all of it. And according to JMS he did not know if they would get a season 5. So he had to just about wrap up a lot. It was not till the near end of season 4 did TNT show up and take on the show for season 5. So it went from syndication to network in season 5 on. And that helped and hurt them.
And remember, 'the dawn of the Third Age of mankind'... that we had heard in Londo's voice since the first movie, The Gathering? Here it is... in the first age, we were non-technological beings living within our planets' biospheres; that was the First Age, call it Childhood... then we became self-aware and built civilizations, but under the guidance (or if you prefer with the interference) of the First Ones; that was the Second Age, call it Youth... And now we're ready to stand alone, and 'make our own mistakes' without any First Ones holding our hands (or manipulating our genome); that is the Third Age, call it Adulthood...
B5 is a parable for growth, isn't it? 🙂
We heard that from Sinclair in the opening credits of the first season as well.
Well the season 1 was the start so you might expect a few episodes to be starters but season 2 the even what seem lesser episodes are conected to other parts in the show . Just like those premonitions of londos dreams , the warning of the late emperors wife that he had 5 paths to take , and wasted 2 . and the technomages warning . what seems like a rtivial moment becomes a major event later on .
The reason this feels like a season finale is because it was supposed to be. It was looking like the show wasn't going to get it's 5th season, so The Great War was cut down to a few episodes, and most of what was supposed to be season 5 got shoehorned into season 4. This meant that when they did get their 5th season it felt very improvised, because it was.
Actually, it was not meant to be the series finale it was episode 17, "The Face of the Enemy," and the following episode, "Intersections in Real Time," was season 5 frist episode. I've put the names of the episodes, so there will be on spoilers
This is a great aspect of this show - it shows the after effect of the great war .Its like what if Lord of the rings did a fourth movie showing what were the long term effects of the trilogy . Or in our history what have been the ramifications of what transpired in WW2 ,short and long term .
This whole series was inspired by JMS's drunken parents' dysfunctional marriage, and the way they constantly demanded that he and his sister choose sides.
Yes, this episode was supposed to be season's 4 finale. JMS was informed that B5 would not be renewed for a 5th season, so he was forced to wrap up all the arcs in season 4 instead of playing them out through season 5. The show was saved by a surprised renewal at the end of season 4 and thus season 5 was made. It's a bit sad that the war was cut short, some of those episodes were fantastics and I imagine more of them would have been just as good. On the other hand, we got more story than was first planed with season 5 being focused on others things that are very good as well. You were really great at figuring out what was gonna happen in this episode, the crown bellongs to you after this ;)
No, this was never going to be S4's finale. This was always the plan, to end the war early in the season.
Cant wait to see your reaction! Looking forward to it
We will wait for you
I was really looking forward to seeing your reaction to the scene with Lorien and Ivanova talking about her skepticism about him being the first one. That is one of my favorite scenes in all of scifi, and I think what Lorien has to say is very much a 'Star Trek' message. I'm very surprised you didn't include that scene.
It’s a lovely scene. In the lorerunner’s videos, he says how easy it is to write an ancient immortal character as cold, aloof, uncaring. But Lorien is sympathetic and almost envies the mortals their brief naïveté.
This video was worth it just for your reaction to Vir's moment.
*does the Vir finger wave*
The reason this was episode 6 instead of the finale was because they didn't think the show was coming back for another season for JMS started wrapping things up in the time he had left
And so it ends (Sort of!) lol!
And so it pivots.
@@sdfried4877 I tried to be clever with so it begins lol
@@DarminDeflern Same here.
The end of the beginning or the beginning of the end....
The beginning of the end I would say.
You think we wouldn't notice Brent? You'll do fine with the recap on Monday. Faith manages :)
Club 65
It was SUPPOSED to be Season Finale Type Stuff! At this point, JMS and the production team has been told Season 4 was going to be the final season of the show. What you're watching is them FRANTICALLY scrambling to cram the originally planned Season 4 AND Season 5 story beats into the rest of Season 4.
And then, at the very end of Season 4 Production, they were picked up by TNT for a Fifth and final season! That sequence of events profoundly effects the pacing and content of the final two seasons of the show.
The space shots aren't paintings. They're actual images from the Hubble Space Telescope.
OK, this is how the War of the Ring ends. But what comes after that? The Scouring of the Shire...
They didn't paint space in B5. These are NASA's Hubble images, back when it first came online. It was a legendary combination of those images and the first workable photoshop. That's why space looks so amazing in B5. It's the real stuff.
For the later seasons they got Hubble images, including the Pillars of Creation, but from the start it was always a conscious effort to depict space differently than the star fields of Star Trek and to add colorful nebulae. It really sets it apart.
Sadly space doesnt look this colourful in every direction, but since they took the images with lots of bright lights for all the backgrounds [to have neat contrast for the darker ships in front, otherwise they'd have to turn them into "disco balls"] ... some people might have misconceptions about how space really is like.
@@Muck006 I know, the colors are usually added during processing of the images, and because light travels at a constant, we're seeing how space looked like hundreds and thousands of years ago. But those are still real images of real space.
@@Muck006 Definitely creative license but nice.
They used images from the Hubble telescope - they did not paint space/use scenic artists. (more than necessary)
Watching this episode after the 2024 election shows how brilliant the writers were. How what they created applies to every conflict.
Now with the end of the shadow war a question. Given that the war is analogous to the cold war and that main POV given by the younger is that of the proxies in the war by proxy that was the cold war. Between the Shadows and the Vorlons which most closely matches with the US and which the USSR. It is my opinion that the shadow match most closely with the US being that there idea of improvement through conflict maps fairly well to the ideal of may the best rise to the top though competition that is prevalent through much of the US culture, there is also the whole assassination thing they like to do which nicely matches with CIA plots. The Vorlons on the other hand match roughly with the USSR as they prefer order (centralized control) where all parts of the system conform to there ideals (hear comes the inquisitor) and obey the commands given.
My favorite scene of the series is still to come. No spoilers, but it's just a scene with 2 people talking to one another. Sure some people know what I'm talking about.
This is what showed me that you can conclude a plot without a season finale or a cliffhanger because the universe keeps going...this is what people who hate Season 5 never understand: things keep going, that doesn't UNDO what came before.
Also Brent, don't forget that the TV movie THIRDSPACE happens in between this episode and the season finale. Remember to watch it at the right interval because it is like a big episode.
Ah, the episode that the post-Cold War nature of the story becomes explicit.
Even if we lose my associates have allies. Remember Mordens last words
Can’t wait to hear what Jeff and Brent have to say about Lando after this episode.
A great subtitle for the series is legacy of the shadows, that you’ll see the rest of coming up.
actually, B5 used real photos from the hubble telescope for their space backgrounds.
This also reminds me of the DS9 episode Battle Lines *bzzzt*
Vorlons and Shadows were doomed to fight each other every 1000 years for eternity. Until now.
As a whole, Babylon 5 was a well-written show. If I was given a choice to watch only one show for a year, it would be this.
They werent sure they could get one more season so JMS wrote to complete most story threads this season
wow i've never seen brent so happy. buh bye mr morden haha
My take was that the Shadows and Vorlons only left because they were convinced by Lorian,
Sheridan and the fleet was a minor obstacle they would have wiped out,
and the other 1st Ones would have returned to their sleeping places. My question is, why NOW, did Lorian finally act? The war had been going on for 1000's of years.
because Sheridan was the first to be able to reach him proving that the young races where now able to take over the galaxy themselves. And I don't think they only left due to Lorian, their fight of ideology really needed the reason behind the war to be secret and now it was out for everyone so that ship had sailed.
Lorien - " ... making a crucible." "Into the Fire". hmmmmm..... what comes out of crucibles?
(21:30) Except that what follows is even better than the Shadow War; the best part of this season overall. MHO, obviously. And what follows *is* JMS borrowing from Tolkien. He's borrowing the stuff that Jackson left out of the movie and it is one of the best denouements ever written. Again, MHO. :)
Sadly as much as I love seeing Mr Morden dead, I am forced to recall that legally speaking he was already dead
And i think. Why we all so sure, that "who already dead" - is Sheridan? May be mistake was - killing Morden?