What a lot of folks miss in this episode is that Delenn -- despite rolling with the punches through the last few episodes -- reaches her limit. The thought in her head (which Mira displays perfectly) is, "That can't be possible, I was told. I did the math! Our lifespans would've synched up perfectly! Now I'm robbed of 40 years with the love of my life! 40 years without the other half of my heart! You lied to me?!" As much as the story of B5 is a tragedy for many characters (Keffer, the Gropos, poor, poor Talia), there is tragedy for Delenn the Wise and Powerful, as well. For she now sees the future . . . And now we know why she begs John to not go to Z'ha'dum when he time jumps. On re-watch, that scene That's real love; damn the galaxy, my man needs to live . . . But she isn't where Sinclair was when he realized it was all set in stone; she falters where Jeff stood fast. Because Jeff found peace, and Delenn is still searching for it. And, to be fair, getting slapped in the face with your love's death certificate -- when what you thought was 60 years to go turns out to be 1/3 of that with payment due without exception -- calls for more than a little confusion where you try and sort it out in the moment. It's almost like she is taking a crash course in how to be human. Ouch.
And unfortunately, given Sheridan’s message to her, she created a self-fulfilling prophecy. He went to Z’ha’dum precisely because she told him not to, because he thought he saw a future where he heeded her warning.
That "tragedy" has been the case for women throughout history ... in times of war. Men didnt return "before their time was up". What you forget is that THERE IS A SON (possibly more?) ... and that is what mothers typically "should" care about, because it is about the FAMILY and not the individuals anymore.
The problem with acting such a role is that "overdoing it" can easily make it ridiculous ... which would be bad. This depiction - just like Bester/ANY OTHER (side) character on B5 - is PERFECT ...
Londo is such a clever character. Initially you see him as comedy relief, he becomes one of the key villains,then a tragic hero. Rewatching the show, you can get a lot of value from watching Londo’s subtle reactions, to see the serious acting skills. Of all of the characters in the show, leaving aside attempts to date Ivanovo or Lyta, I would most enjoy being able to chat with Londo because I know I would be greatly entertained.
On my very first watch of B5, three years ago during lockdown, I watched the first (number redacted to avoid possible spoilers) episodes of season 4 back to back. Stayed up until 4am with good food and very good TV and it was probably one of the best nights of that summer. What a show!
The actor commentaries are great too, and this is the season 4 episode they comment on. The intrigue in this show is always on point, and Londo's handling of Cartagia is fantastic court politics that you don't often see in sci-fi (or anywhere else).
Yes! The Vorlons show their true face. Planet killers! Shadow Cabinet. That makes me laugh every time. Krimmer is so good as Cartagia. Great to see how much you love this favourite of mine. Be seeing you!
Now we see what a Vorlon *actually* looks like; bit like a Squid or Cuttlefish! Maybe using the Nakaleen Feeder in 'Grail' wasn't too far off :D I don't know if it was deliberate but in UK politics, the opposition Cabinet is called 'the Shadow Cabinet' with a 'Shadow Home Secretary', 'Shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer' etc
I always liked how Kosh proved himself to have been a good Vorlon, and Sheridan with 20 years indeed is a good run, but still shows there was some cost for what he did.
Kosh was unlike other Vorlons because he was curious, able to change his mind, and not a completely indifferent a-hole to humans, Sinclair, or Sheridan. He studied human history, he taught Sheridan to fight not only the Shadows but "legends" (First Ones, Vorlons), he saved Sheridan at Z'Ha'Dum, and saved him here again. It's not an accident that he shows up to Sheridan as Sheridan's father in his dream, as he's being killed by the Shadows.
@@miller-joel Speaking of that, there is a theory that Kosh might have been one of the few reminding Vorlons that used to have a physical form and thus understood what the younger races would go through.
I always loved that line where they intend to pass off New Sugar-Free Kosh as the old Kosh following his death last season. I always imagined in the Zocolo someone saying, "Hey Kosh, you look kinda different. You got a new haircut or something?" "LOOK CLOSER MORTAL." "Oh yeah, that's right - you're the meanest guy on the station now, and you're all purple!" "MEANEST GUY IN THE UNIVERSE! HAHAHAHA!"
I always presumed, in addition to the desire to convey invincibility, there was some truth to the idea that all the Vorlon were Kosh. Like that they are the "Vorlon", and not the "Vorlons". The instantaneous nature of the empire's awareness of Kosh's death. That they break pieces of themselves and can share them. The idea that they return pieces of themselves to the singular unified Vorlon seems pretty on point. If the pieces that came back were those experiencing death, something that hadn't happened in a "long time" by Vorlon standards, it might explain a good bit of the gear shift to planet killing. I think each instance of a Vorlon we see is probably a fragment of the greater Vorlon.
@@argentaegis Kinda like the shapeshifters in DS9 ... who also "mind-and-body-merge" on their homeworld. We dont really have a clue what Vorlons are doing "in their free time", which is going to be a bit of a problem with energy-based/not-strictly-corporeal beings.
So much stuff happening in this episode. Vorlons have always had the technology to attack and destroy the Shadows. They didn't Which means there is more to it. They finally took out the Vorlon ambassador, and most importantly, we find out the cost of Sheridan going to Z'Ha'Dum. 20 years. A portion. Londo is so good at playing with words. He is good at being in the royal court. P.S. that head that was next to Mollari, that was a copy of Andreas Katsulas' (actor that plays G'Kar) face made into a Centauri. JMS thought it would be funny.
@@raifthemad the cost of going to Z'Ha'Dum was dying and if he came back, he would come back different than he was before. He didn't lose 40 years of his life by going there. He died. Lorien brought him back, but he still died.
@@Petrosman You typed, that cost of going there was 20 years. Him dying is not part of that argument, nor the calculation, since he lives again. He would have had potentially 100+ years if he didn't and, now it's 60, so the cost was 40+ years. Just corrected that part of your math illiteracy. That's all.
@@raifthemad this isn't a math thing. This is a philosophy thing. He now has to live with the fact that he will only live 20 years. No more. That's a punishment by itself.
The ending of this episode is one that always stuck with me. How they linger on the shot of the closed door for just a bit longer and let you imagine what's happening inside...which is far worse than anything they could have shown. One of my top moments in this (my all time favorite) series.
Seeing you so freakin’ amped up about the story takes me back 26 years! Sounds like B5 might be your favorite show now. If so, what episode was the clincher?
B5 is the pinnacle of storyarc-TV-writing COMBINED WITH perfect choice of actors AND perfect directing. The only "flaw" it has is lack of funding for some proper sets. They do what they can, but you can see how things get reused and sometimes the stars dont rotate outside the windows ... but since the other parts can only get worse, I wouldnt really want a new version of B5. The new animated movie uses TIME TRAVEL and ALTERNATE UNIVERSES ... two of the worst writing elements ever ... thus showing that JMS has been corrupted and isnt as good as he once was.
The soldier/surgeon plucking out G'Kar's eye would have to be extra careful to make sure that the wound is clean ... to prevent an infection that could kill him, thus robbing the Emperor of his fun. tl;dr Always think about more than "just the next step" ... consider consequences!
I believe this is the ONLY time we truly see a Vorlon in Babylon 5. All the other times they are hidden inside their encounter suits, or behind the angelic image they telepathically project to the younger races. We know that the angelic projection takes effort (Kosh says it was a strain to be seen by so many after rescuing Sheridan). When fighting for its life, the Vorlon drops all projections and we see its true form as... some kind of ethereal squid thing?
True to form. G'Kar takes his punishment without a sound. I always love the banter between Londo and Cartagia. Half the time, Cartagia knows Londo is spouting bullshit, but he still loves to hear it anyway. It's all a game to him and one with deadly consequences, to be sure. Luckily, Cartagia respects and enjoys Londo's innate talent for blowing smoke. On this occasion, however, Londo exploits his weakness and Cartagia takes the matter very seriously.
Sheridan died on Z'ha'dum, as Kosh foretold. But Lorien brought him back to life. That is Sheridan's apotheosis. And Cartagia hopes to become a god. But Londo is determined to let this apotheosis fail.
Well, that's a bit ambiguous and contradictory. Lorien says he can't create life, only extend it. So if Sheridan did die, it wasn't Lorien who brought him back to life. Maybe having a piece of Kosh had something to do with it.
IF I would ever have the "pleasure" of "blowing up my own planet to commemorate my ascension to godhood" ... I'd first make sure to have an appropriately STYLISH VESSEL to watch it from ... and that would look like *THE SPELLJAMMER* ... The Centauri feel like they have the right architectural & ship design mindset to do that.
@@MegaReacts You seem to have your definitions wrong ... - Baron de Sade became known for "hurting others" - Sacher-Masoch became known for "subjecting himself to torture" You cant subject me to the awfulness of Picard ... but you do it to yourself ... you masochist.
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What a lot of folks miss in this episode is that Delenn -- despite rolling with the punches through the last few episodes -- reaches her limit. The thought in her head (which Mira displays perfectly) is, "That can't be possible, I was told. I did the math! Our lifespans would've synched up perfectly! Now I'm robbed of 40 years with the love of my life! 40 years without the other half of my heart! You lied to me?!" As much as the story of B5 is a tragedy for many characters (Keffer, the Gropos, poor, poor Talia), there is tragedy for Delenn the Wise and Powerful, as well. For she now sees the future . . . And now we know why she begs John to not go to Z'ha'dum when he time jumps. On re-watch, that scene That's real love; damn the galaxy, my man needs to live . . . But she isn't where Sinclair was when he realized it was all set in stone; she falters where Jeff stood fast. Because Jeff found peace, and Delenn is still searching for it. And, to be fair, getting slapped in the face with your love's death certificate -- when what you thought was 60 years to go turns out to be 1/3 of that with payment due without exception -- calls for more than a little confusion where you try and sort it out in the moment. It's almost like she is taking a crash course in how to be human. Ouch.
And unfortunately, given Sheridan’s message to her, she created a self-fulfilling prophecy. He went to Z’ha’dum precisely because she told him not to, because he thought he saw a future where he heeded her warning.
It actually will be more than 40 years.
That "tragedy" has been the case for women throughout history ... in times of war. Men didnt return "before their time was up".
What you forget is that THERE IS A SON (possibly more?) ... and that is what mothers typically "should" care about, because it is about the FAMILY and not the individuals anymore.
"I'm mad me!" - Emperor Cartagia, probably. I love Wrothram Krimmer. The actor's just living his best life.
The problem with acting such a role is that "overdoing it" can easily make it ridiculous ... which would be bad. This depiction - just like Bester/ANY OTHER (side) character on B5 - is PERFECT ...
Londo is such a clever character. Initially you see him as comedy relief, he becomes one of the key villains,then a tragic hero. Rewatching the show, you can get a lot of value from watching Londo’s subtle reactions, to see the serious acting skills. Of all of the characters in the show, leaving aside attempts to date Ivanovo or Lyta, I would most enjoy being able to chat with Londo because I know I would be greatly entertained.
On my very first watch of B5, three years ago during lockdown, I watched the first (number redacted to avoid possible spoilers) episodes of season 4 back to back. Stayed up until 4am with good food and very good TV and it was probably one of the best nights of that summer. What a show!
"Let it all end in fire!"
Exactly. From Kosh's voice to Cartagia"s to Londo"s ears.
6:25 The head at the end of the table there, Dugarri, is a bust of Andreas Katsulas; aka G'Kar. 🙂
And they put him right next to Londo so that he'd show up on camera, which prompted Peter Jurasik to joke that G'Kar was upstaging him again. lol.
The actor commentaries are great too, and this is the season 4 episode they comment on. The intrigue in this show is always on point, and Londo's handling of Cartagia is fantastic court politics that you don't often see in sci-fi (or anywhere else).
Yes! The Vorlons show their true face.
Planet killers!
Shadow Cabinet. That makes me laugh every time. Krimmer is so good as Cartagia.
Great to see how much you love this favourite of mine.
Be seeing you!
Now we see what a Vorlon *actually* looks like; bit like a Squid or Cuttlefish! Maybe using the Nakaleen Feeder in 'Grail' wasn't too far off :D
I don't know if it was deliberate but in UK politics, the opposition Cabinet is called 'the Shadow Cabinet' with a 'Shadow Home Secretary', 'Shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer' etc
The head next to Molari is the head bust cast from Andreas Jatsukas and used for making the makeup prosthetics.
I always liked how Kosh proved himself to have been a good Vorlon, and Sheridan with 20 years indeed is a good run, but still shows there was some cost for what he did.
Kosh was unlike other Vorlons because he was curious, able to change his mind, and not a completely indifferent a-hole to humans, Sinclair, or Sheridan. He studied human history, he taught Sheridan to fight not only the Shadows but "legends" (First Ones, Vorlons), he saved Sheridan at Z'Ha'Dum, and saved him here again. It's not an accident that he shows up to Sheridan as Sheridan's father in his dream, as he's being killed by the Shadows.
@@miller-joel Speaking of that, there is a theory that Kosh might have been one of the few reminding Vorlons that used to have a physical form and thus understood what the younger races would go through.
I always loved that line where they intend to pass off New Sugar-Free Kosh as the old Kosh following his death last season. I always imagined in the Zocolo someone saying, "Hey Kosh, you look kinda different. You got a new haircut or something?" "LOOK CLOSER MORTAL." "Oh yeah, that's right - you're the meanest guy on the station now, and you're all purple!" "MEANEST GUY IN THE UNIVERSE! HAHAHAHA!"
I always presumed, in addition to the desire to convey invincibility, there was some truth to the idea that all the Vorlon were Kosh. Like that they are the "Vorlon", and not the "Vorlons". The instantaneous nature of the empire's awareness of Kosh's death. That they break pieces of themselves and can share them. The idea that they return pieces of themselves to the singular unified Vorlon seems pretty on point. If the pieces that came back were those experiencing death, something that hadn't happened in a "long time" by Vorlon standards, it might explain a good bit of the gear shift to planet killing.
I think each instance of a Vorlon we see is probably a fragment of the greater Vorlon.
@@argentaegis Kinda like the shapeshifters in DS9 ... who also "mind-and-body-merge" on their homeworld. We dont really have a clue what Vorlons are doing "in their free time", which is going to be a bit of a problem with energy-based/not-strictly-corporeal beings.
They're looking at The Sheridan the way Bajorans look upon The Sisko.
And some clueless people say there are no similarities at all...
So much stuff happening in this episode. Vorlons have always had the technology to attack and destroy the Shadows. They didn't Which means there is more to it. They finally took out the Vorlon ambassador, and most importantly, we find out the cost of Sheridan going to Z'Ha'Dum. 20 years. A portion. Londo is so good at playing with words. He is good at being in the royal court.
P.S. that head that was next to Mollari, that was a copy of Andreas Katsulas' (actor that plays G'Kar) face made into a Centauri. JMS thought it would be funny.
Nope, the cost for going to Dum is about 40+ years. What he has left is 20ish.
@@raifthemad the cost of going to Z'Ha'Dum was dying and if he came back, he would come back different than he was before. He didn't lose 40 years of his life by going there. He died. Lorien brought him back, but he still died.
@@Petrosman You typed, that cost of going there was 20 years. Him dying is not part of that argument, nor the calculation, since he lives again. He would have had potentially 100+ years if he didn't and, now it's 60, so the cost was 40+ years. Just corrected that part of your math illiteracy. That's all.
@@raifthemad this isn't a math thing. This is a philosophy thing. He now has to live with the fact that he will only live 20 years. No more. That's a punishment by itself.
Kosh saves Sheridan again.
Loved this. Your comments summing up at the end of this episode were so on the money!
"You must save the eye that does not see."
The ending of this episode is one that always stuck with me. How they linger on the shot of the closed door for just a bit longer and let you imagine what's happening inside...which is far worse than anything they could have shown. One of my top moments in this (my all time favorite) series.
Crazy person "We must allow them to see me for what I am"
Lando: You are quite right ^^
Seeing you so freakin’ amped up about the story takes me back 26 years! Sounds like B5 might be your favorite show now. If so, what episode was the clincher?
In a word? Yes. ;)
B5 is the pinnacle of storyarc-TV-writing COMBINED WITH perfect choice of actors AND perfect directing.
The only "flaw" it has is lack of funding for some proper sets. They do what they can, but you can see how things get reused and sometimes the stars dont rotate outside the windows ... but since the other parts can only get worse, I wouldnt really want a new version of B5.
The new animated movie uses TIME TRAVEL and ALTERNATE UNIVERSES ... two of the worst writing elements ever ... thus showing that JMS has been corrupted and isnt as good as he once was.
This episode was slower, but not slow. I hope you were able to take a few breaths. 😆
The soldier/surgeon plucking out G'Kar's eye would have to be extra careful to make sure that the wound is clean ... to prevent an infection that could kill him, thus robbing the Emperor of his fun.
tl;dr Always think about more than "just the next step" ... consider consequences!
I believe this is the ONLY time we truly see a Vorlon in Babylon 5. All the other times they are hidden inside their encounter suits, or behind the angelic image they telepathically project to the younger races. We know that the angelic projection takes effort (Kosh says it was a strain to be seen by so many after rescuing Sheridan). When fighting for its life, the Vorlon drops all projections and we see its true form as... some kind of ethereal squid thing?
True to form. G'Kar takes his punishment without a sound.
I always love the banter between Londo and Cartagia. Half the time, Cartagia knows Londo is spouting bullshit, but he still loves to hear it anyway. It's all a game to him and one with deadly consequences, to be sure. Luckily, Cartagia respects and enjoys Londo's innate talent for blowing smoke. On this occasion, however, Londo exploits his weakness and Cartagia takes the matter very seriously.
I'd say Cartagia is "entertained" not that he "respects". Cartagia is too far above the ants like Londo to respect them.
Sheridan died on Z'ha'dum, as Kosh foretold. But Lorien brought him back to life. That is Sheridan's apotheosis.
And Cartagia hopes to become a god. But Londo is determined to let this apotheosis fail.
Well, that's a bit ambiguous and contradictory. Lorien says he can't create life, only extend it. So if Sheridan did die, it wasn't Lorien who brought him back to life. Maybe having a piece of Kosh had something to do with it.
I thought Apotheosis was in Stargate SG1?
IF I would ever have the "pleasure" of "blowing up my own planet to commemorate my ascension to godhood" ... I'd first make sure to have an appropriately STYLISH VESSEL to watch it from ... and that would look like *THE SPELLJAMMER* ...
The Centauri feel like they have the right architectural & ship design mindset to do that.
Why put yourself through the grief by doing Picard?
I am a sadist. It did get great metrics. 🤣
@@MegaReacts Maybe you can make it into a drinking game.
@Alan-te8im I had a great time editing the borg cube scene. Got a few edits on the channel.
@@MegaReacts You seem to have your definitions wrong ...
- Baron de Sade became known for "hurting others"
- Sacher-Masoch became known for "subjecting himself to torture"
You cant subject me to the awfulness of Picard ... but you do it to yourself ... you masochist.
Soooo, they don't look like an Angel when they come out.
Skip pukehard-go Farscape instead 😜