Theology and the Future of the Southern Baptist Convention
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ส.ค. 2024
- A conversation on theology, ministry, and the Southern Baptist Convention with Dr. R. Albert Mohler, Jr. and Dr. Eric Hankins. Dr. Hankins is the Pastor of First Baptist Church, Oxford, MS and recently served with Dr. Mohler on the Calvinism Advisory Committee.
Excellent! Very smooth conversation about "THE ISSUE" among Southern Baptists...
That's why I hope there's not just a mass exodus from the SBC but correcting apostasy and legalism both inside and out.
I am not a Baptist, but I am impressed that each of you respected each other, even as you differed. Thanks for your examples. The petty comments in the posts are a shame.
Praise God!! We left our SBC strapped Church this week. Free At Last!! Thank God Almighty We're Free at Last!!! Progressive ....White haters hijacked the SBC....Run!! ...As fast as you can ...away from these Clowns!!
Great conversation and somewhat convicting. As a 5 point calvinist I do tend to "look down" on others who dont hold to the doctrines of Grace. Definitely need to be taught some humility, thanks for posting.
Scottles293. Me, too.
Or correct theology
Praise be to Jesus the author and perfecter of our faith! Salvation is of the LORD. All men are like grass.
As a student at Southern Seminary who is non-Calvinist I thought this was so excellent! ❤️
just a question. why did u choose southern seminary if ur non calvinist? i am non calvinist as well, just curious. it does make me angry that southern does not allow non calvinists to teach there, when the money i give goes to support the seminary. calvinists are allowed to teach at non calvinist seminaries so why cant we teach in theirs? it is to the point where i am considering leaving the sbc
I have stepped down from being called a Baptist but I do believe in the Baptist Faith and Message.
What I was sent to do for the Southern Baptist Church in Whidbey Island is to evidence the Presence of God among them.
New Heaven Order - Follow the Order of Worship of His Remnant People (Indianola Presbyterian Church, Columbus, Ohio) in minutes, as you war.. The New Kingdom knows no end. Throne is war. Praise Triune God whom we adore.
"...Ediongo ete ke Obong Nyin, Obu, Edi Abasi ke nsi nsi nsi nsi..."
Thank You Father.
I am a southern Baptist. I have studied the history of Baptists a long time. I am amazed at whats going on now. I am NOT an Arminian, nor am I a Calvinist. for me, the biggest issue isn't predestination itself. There have always been Baptists who held that view. I myself believe in corporate election (the church), not individual. Even tho I strongly disagree with predestination, the MOST troubling thing to me and many others is the use of the word "reformed Baptist". This term has never been used before the last few decades. I do not believe we are protestants by the strict definition of the word. Seems strange that those who use the word "reformed" love to quote spurgeon--well heres a spurgeon quote for you--"We believe that the Baptists are the original Christians. We did not commence our existence at the reformation, we were reformers before Luther and Calvin were born; we never came from the Church of Rome, for we were never in it, but we have an unbroken line up to the apostles themselves." REFORMED involves a LOT more than the issue of predestination. Also, to a non believer, using this term makes them think u are no longer Baptist (like a reformed alcoholic who no longer drinks). It breaks my heart when I drive by a church with "reformed Baptist" on the sign. The last time I visited a "reformed Baptist church" a Presbyterian hymnal was used, and the Nicene creed was recited, which affirms baptismal regeneration. Baptists have never used creeds. The WORD is enough. A few days ago I watched a debate with 2 Baptists about predestination. At the end of the debate, the one opposed to predestination asked the other guy if he KNEW he was saved. His answer was no!!! If there is ANYTHING Baptists have always affirmed, it is ASSURANCE OF SALVATION. So now we are preaching a gospel no different that the catholic gospel which tells u that u cannot KNOW if u are saved??? I called a Presbyterian church and spoke with a pastor and asked his view of "reformed Baptist"---he laughed a little and said "theres no such thing". Never thought id find myself in agreement with a Presbyterian. He gave me a book from the Reformed Christian church with a "family tree" of all Christian churches and where they originated from--Baptist wasn't even on it, and where it does talk about us, it affirms that we are not classical protestants. Seems they are more truthful than we are at times. I am seriously debating whether or not I want to remain a southern Baptist. the last 2 churches I attended got a pastor who lied about his beliefs and now one church no longer exists (it ran well over 1,000 in attendance) and the other is down to 200 people (they ran over 1,000 as well). I personally don't think predestination is a huge problem. I believe it is people who are presbyterian/reformed wearing Baptist clothing. May God forgive us for for telling people to repent, and then telling them they cant unless God wants them too--and then when they do, telling them they cant know for sure if they are saved
I appreciate all you said. My situation is very similar to yours. I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian; I am a Biblicist. You are absolutely spot on when you say that assurance is a huge problem amongst Calvinist-Reformed Baptists, and yes, I am going to refer to them as Reformed Baptists b/c they have adopted the soteriology and eschatology of the Reformers. While I dislike double predestination, I abhor the "P" in TULIP: the perseverance of the saints. That's what you're getting at in your post, the belief that one must persevere in faith and good works until the end of his life or else he was never saved to begin with. It destroys assurance. That's no different than worshiping Allah; gotta wait until you die to find out if you have enough good works to be saved. If you don't have the works, then too bad for you; you were never saved to begin with.
This view, of course, ignores the warning of 1 John 4:16-17 of the sin unto death. It also ignores the warning that we may be ashamed at Christ's coming (1 John 2:28). The NT writers allow for the fact that believers do not always persevere. Scripture teaches the perseverance of the Savior, not of the saints.
The Arminians worship a totem pole god who must be appeased at all costs, or else he'll condemn them to the fire pit. The Calvinists worship a Christianized, sanitized, theologically acceptable form of Allah who will turn them away if they don't have enough good works on the scales at the end of life.
The Calvinists are very clever; they redefine faith to include works. That is unconscionable. The word "pistis" (faith) in Greek means "belief" and knows nothing of works. Nothing. The word "pistis" is linguistically related to the word "peitho" (persuade). The Apostle Paul defines faith in Romans 4:21: the act of being persuaded that God is able to keep His promises. Period. No works involved. In Acts, Paul went to the synagogues, persuading men that Jesus is the Christ (e.g., Acts 18:4, Acts 28:23). Again and again Paul says that he persuades men, and that he himself is persuaded (i.e., he believes---2 Tim 1:12). If you're persuaded about something, you believe it. It's all so simple, yet the modern Calvinist has muddied the waters.
The Calvinist also redefines grace in a Roman Catholic way. In fact, when you compare RCC to Calvinism-Reformed theology, one has the wafer and Mary, the other doesn't. Other than that, they are virtually identical. Both are trying to appease a "daisy" God (I love you, I love you not) and neither knows for sure if he's heaven bound when he dies.
Even John Calvin knew that assurance is the essence of saving faith. His followers can't figure that out. If a person doesn't believe in Jesus for EVERLASTING LIFE, what, then, is he believing in Jesus for? A hand up? A chance at bat? A boost? Just what?
I was raised in a Sou Baptist church and am still a member of a Sou Baptist church. I am ashamed of much of what I see coming out of Sou Baptist seminaries. I recently read the "Four Views in the Role of Works at the Final Judgment" book and was especially interested to read what Thomas Schreiner had to say. I was embarrassed and grieved at his view that Ephesians 2:8-9 do not refer to eternal salvation and that works must play a part in salvation; he backloads the Gospel with works. In his view, no one can know for sure until death whether he has eternal life. Sad, sad, sad. If Dr Schreiner is the best and brightest SBTS has to offer, no thanks. And, by the way, there is no "final judgment" for believers. Believers appear at the Bema for reward; "final judgment" for believers occurred at the cross. "Final judgment" as most use the term implies that no one can know for sure if he's really in the family of God b/c he must wait until after death to find out where he really stands.
i so appreciated your comments. I am in total agreement. I am hoping the right person(s) will read both of our posts and start the "reformed" house of cards to fall. might I ask where you are located my friend? you obviously are knowledgable. if you've ever been to a seminary where did you go? feel free to send a private msg if you don't want this to be public, and thanks again for your comments!
caman171 Hello, caman171. Sent you a private message.
***** i agree that works are the fruit of salvation --that's the whole point-God knows the difference between "fruit" that comes naturally from a converted heart, and "works" that comes from trying to gain approval or brownie points. I must agree with OxideHera tho that the Calvinist can never know if they are saved--if God alone makes the choice, then how do u know you are chosen--you cant unless He personally issued u a new birth certificate. Calvin and some of his followers taught that some have "temporal" or "time"salvation--they have certain graces for obeying Christ in THIS life, yet do NOT have eternal life. some even claim that God gets a kick out of people being deceived thinkin they are saved but are not. the puritans are a perfect example. they were so busy working to prove their salvation (hence the term "puritan work ethic"), that it became a contest until they eventually started to point finger at the faults of others to "prove" how holy they were (ever heard of the salem witch trials??) if this isn't roman catholic belief I don't know what is. catholic = works to get saved, calvinism = works to prove ur saved--in the end its the same--who do I need to prove my salvation to?? God already knows, I already know--the only thing I need to "prove" is God's love for the lost--I don't need to impress the church or God. in fact, my love for Him gives me pleasure to do works--but I don't lay awake at night wondering if ive done enough to prove my salvation. and as for makin your election sure???? that is the absolute OPPOSITE of Calvinism--cant believe u even said that. if I can make my election sure, then I must have a choice. when someone refers to Calvinism, they refer to the WHOLE SYSTEM of reformed theology, and you may not subscribe to all of it--but its ur burden to state what u believe and distance urself from those thing u disagree with--but if u call urself a Calvinist, don't get upset when some takes u at ur word--calvin taught state church, infant baptism, election runs in families (which is why the presbyterians still baptize infants), and calvin taught banishment of anyone who professes any doctrines other than his---ALL of these doctrines are roman catholic to the core. maybe u should take ur own advice "You have much to learn about those you are in disagreement with. You should seek to represent the position of those you disagree with before offering words of correction. I don't mean to offend--I believe u love the Lord and don't doubt that at all--but as one who comes from a primitive Baptist background, I do know the difference between "reformed" and "Baptist" and I do know the traps of trying to prove to urself and others that u are elect--as for being "faithful til the end" its simply knowing that ur faith is in Christ--HE is the one that is faithful, not me.
***** my hope is in Christ alone as well--that was my whole point. my hope doesn't lie with calvin, luther, or any other person. my hope doesn't lie in the reformation because it was never unformed. how u can imply that my hope isn't in Christ alone is beyond me. Baptists aren't protestants---have u read spurgeon? see his comment about Baptists being "reformed"--"We believe that the Baptists are the original Christians. We did not commence our existence at thereformation, we were reformers before Luther or Calvin were born; we never came from the Church of Rome, for we were never in it, but we have an unbroken line up to the apostles themselves. We have always existed from the very days of Christ, and our principles, sometimes veiled and forgotten, like a river which may travel underground for a little season, have always had honest and holy adherents. Persecuted alike by Romanists and Protestants of almost every sect, yet there has never existed a Government holding Baptist principles which persecuted others; nor I believe any body of Baptists ever held it to be right to put the consciences of others under the control of man. We have ever been ready to suffer, as our martyrologies will prove, but we are not ready to accept any help from the State, to prostitute the purity of the Bride of Christ to any alliance with the government, and we will never make the Church, although the Queen, the despot over the consciences of men". (From The New Park Street Pulpit, Vol.VII, Page 225). as I already stated---my faith is in the faithfulness of Christ--my faith is too weak to get the job done--that's why I need Him. as with anyone else, id say make your election sure--don't rely on ur feeble attempt to prove ur salvation by ur works--they will never be enough my friend.
Early Church Fathers on Peter Being the First Bishop of the Church of Rome
Clement Recognitions book 1 (27-97 ad)
The epistle in which the same Clement, writing to James the Lord's brother, informs him of the death of Peter, and that he had left him his successor in his chair and teaching, and in which also the whole subject of church order is treated, I have not prefixed to this work, both because it is of later date, and because I have already translated and published it. But I do not think it out of place to explain here what in that letter will perhaps seem to some to be inconsistent. Since Linus and Cletus were bishops in the city of Rome before this Clement, how could Clement himself say that the chair of teaching was handed over to him by Peter? Now of this we have heard this explanation, that Linus and Cletus were indeed bishops in the city of Rome before Clement, but during the lifetime of Peter: that is, that they undertook the care of the episcopate, and that he fulfilled the office of apostleship; as is found also to have been the case at Caesarea, where, when he himself was present, he yet had Zacchaeus, ordained by himself, as bishop. And in this way both statements will appear to be true, both that these bishops are reckoned before Clement, and yet that Clement received the teacher's seat on the death of Peter.
Tertullian Prescription Against Heretics ch 22 (160- 240 ad)
Was anything withheld from the knowledge of Peter, who is called "the rock on which the church should be built," who also obtained "the keys of the kingdom of heaven," with the power of "loosing and binding in heaven and on earth?"
Tertullian Prescription Against Heretics ch 32 (160- 240 ad)
For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago,--in the reign of Antoninus for the most part,--and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus, the 13th Bishop of Rome until on account of their ever restless curiosity,with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelle
Tertullian The Prescription Against Heretics ch 32 [160-240 AD]
"[T]his is the way in which the apostolic churches transmit their lists: like the church of the Smyrneans, which records that Polycarp was placed there by John, like the church of the Romans, where Clement was ordained by Peter" (Demurrer Against the Heretics 32:2 [A.D. 200]).
Caius Fragment 2 AGAINST THE HERESY OF ARTEMON ch 1 (180-240 ad)
For they say that all those of the first age, and the apostles themselves, both received and taught those things which these men now maintain; and that the truth of Gospel preaching was preserved until the times of Victor, who was the fourteenth bishop in Rome after Peter,
Origen Commentary on the Gospel of John Book 5 par 3 (185-254 ad)
And Peter, on whom Christ had to build his church, against which the gates of hell shall not prevail left only one epistle of acknowledged genuineness.
Cyprian of Carthage Epistle 45 par 2 [200-270 AD]
We," they say, "know that Cornelius, the twenty-first bishop of the most holy Catholic Church elected by Almighty God, and by Christ our Lord. We confess our error; we have suffered imposture; we were deceived by captious perfidy and loquacity. For although we seemed, as it were, to have held a kind of communion with a man who was a schismatic and a heretic, yet our mind was always sincere in the Church. For we are not ignorant that there is one God; that there is one Christ the Lord whom we have confessed, and one Holy Spirit; and that in the Catholic Church there ought to be one bishop."
Cyprian of Carthage epistle 74 par 16 (200-270 ad)
But what is the greatness of his error, and what the depth of his blindness, who says that remission of sins can be granted in the synagogues of heretics, and does not abide on the foundation of the one Church which was once based by Christ upon the rock, may be perceived from this, that Christ said to Peter alone, "Whatsoever thou shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever thou shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." And again, in the Gospel, when Christ breathed on the apostles alone, saying, remitted unto them, and whose soever sins ye retain they are retained." Therefore the power of remitting sins was given to the apostles, and to the churches which they, sent by Christ, established, and to the bishops who succeeded to them by vicarious ordination. But the enemies of the one Catholic Church in which we are, and the adversaries of us who have succeeded the apostles, asserting for themselves, in opposition to us, unlawful priesthoods, and setting up profane altars, what else are they than Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, profane with a like wickedness, and about to suffer the same punishments which they did, as well as those who agree with them, just as their partners and abettors perished with a like death to theirs?
Cyprian of Carthage epistle 72 par 7 (200-270 ad)
But it is manifest where and by whom remission of sins can be given; to wit, that which is given in baptism. For first of all the Lord gave that power to Peter, upon whom He built the Church, and whence He appointed and showed the source of unity--the power, namely, that whatsoever he loosed on earth should be loosed in heaven. And after the resurrection, also, He speaks to the apostles, saying, "As the Father hath sent me, even so I send you. And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and saith, unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: whosoever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whosoever sins ye retain, they are retained." Whence we perceive that only they who are set over the Church and established in the Gospel law, and in the ordinance of the Lord, are allowed to baptize and to give remission of sins; but that without, nothing can either be bound or loosed, where there is none who can either bind or loose anything.
Cyprian of Carthage epistle 54 par 14 (200-270 ad)
After such things as these, moreover, they still dare--a false bishop having been appointed for them by, heretics--to set sail and to bear letters from schismatic and profane persons to the throne of Peter, and to the chief church whence priestly unity takes its source; and not to consider that these were the Romans whose faith was praised in the preaching of the apostle, to whom faithlessness could have no access.
Cyprian of Carthage Epistle 51 par 8 [200-270 AD]
"Cornelius was made bishop by the decision of God and of his Christ, by the testimony of almost all the clergy, by the applause of the people then present, by the college of venerable priests and good men, at a time when no one had been made bishop before him-when the place of Pope Fabian, which is the place of Peter, the dignity of the sacerdotal chair, was vacant. Since it has been occupied both at the will of God and with the ratified consent of all of us, whoever now wishes to become bishop must do so outside. For he cannot have ecclesiastical rank who does not hold to the unity of the Church"
Cyprian of Carthage Treatise 1 par 4 [200-270 AD]
There is easy proof for faith in a short summary of the truth. The Lord speaks to Peter, saying, "I say unto thee, that thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." And again to the same He says, after His resurrection, resurrection, He gives an equal power, and says, "As the Father hath sent me, even so send I you: Receive ye the Holy Ghost: He arranged by His authority the origin of that unity, as beginning from one.
Cyprian of Carthage epistle 39 par 5 [200-270 AD]
There is one God, and Christ is one, and there is one Church, and one chair founded upon the rock by the word of the Lord. Another altar cannot be constituted nor a new priesthood be made, except the one altar and the one priesthood.
Peter of Alexandria Genuine Acts of Peter (260-311ad)
...and guardian of all preceding and subsequent occupiers of this pontifical chair ...Peter was the first of the apostles...
Interesting.
Good point, because I (and many others) were robbed being students at a Baptist college and Baptist seminary during the political environment from 1977 -1980. Where were the leaders then. We could have gone anywhere without the drama. I went to a Baptist college 1983 -1988 and SWBTS from 88 - 93. The education was awesome, but in the background was the “dark side of SB.”
People are so afraid of being judged for sin.
ESPECIALLY SPIRITUAL LEADERS!!!
The one rule of Calvinism is not mention determinism.
I think calvinist misinterpret romans 9, john 6, ephisians 1&2, etc.
I think you're right.
I'm still waiting for a calvinist to provide one verse that says anyone was chosen for salvation from before the foundation of the world.
@D Johnson how do you understand Ephesians 1:4?
This is a subject matter that I labor over. I lean on one side of this argument but I’ve known people on both sides of this argument are are fully convinced that the Bible says such and such. I’ve known people on both sides of the argument that I am absolutely sure loved the Lord with all their heart. It is a matter that brings up a passion in people but I don’t know if it should divide us. Paul and Mark in the Bible had a heated debate and parted ways for a while. ...for a while. I don’t think everyone can agree on everything and that is why there are so many different denominations. I can see the Scriptures that both sides hold to to make their argument. In my humble opinion, our energy may be better used to educate people out of the prosperity gospel, Mormonism, jw, etc.
I was rewriting some Bible study notes as I was watching this and right as Dr. Mohler started talking about welcoming an astronaut on campus (Col. Jeff Williams), my notes said, "Set you affection on things above, not on things on the earth. Col 3:2." XD
These men are high in education in the ways of man or a system of man. The Southern Baptist Convention needs a lot of prayer.
I would add, soulwinning Pastors like Adrian Rogers, Mike Stone, W.A. Criswell, etc.
The Southern Baptist Convention is a ship on the rocks ready to go down. It may be time for Calvinists to jump ship, establish their own group, and let the "non-Calvinists" deal with Andy Stanley, Rick Warren, and Beth Moore.
Wow, I’m a non-Calvinist and stand directly opposed to Stanly, Warren, and Moore. This was a very true stamens and big problem now for the SBC among others. Seems no one holds to biblical inerrancy and infallibility anymore.
There is a lot of unChrist-like hatred being displayed by some of the posters here.
Was the Early Church the Roman Catholic Church? 👉😮👈
Hermas The Shepherd of Hermas Book I Vision 2 ch 4 [60-120 AD]
"Therefore shall you Hermas write two little books and send one to Clement, The Bishop of Rome, and one to Grapte. Clement shall then send it to the cities abroad, because that is his duty"
Irenaeus of Lyons Adversus Haereses book 3 ch 3.3 [120-180 AD]
….the Catholic Church founded and organized in Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church of Rome, on account of its preeminent authority...
Tertullian Prescription Against Heretics ch 32 (160- 240 ad)
"Where was [the heretic] Macron, that shipmaster of Pontus, the zealous student of Stoicism? Where was Valentinus, the disciple of Platonism? For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago,--in the reign of Antoninus for the most part,--and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, the Church of Rome, under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus, until on account of their ever restless curiosity,with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled
Caius Fragment 2 AGAINST THE HERESY OF ARTEMON ch 1 (180-240 ad)
For they say that all those of the first age, and the apostles themselves, both received and taught those things which these men now maintain; and that the truth of Gospel preaching was preserved until the times of Victor, who was the thirteenth bishop in Rome from Peter,
Origen De Principiis Book 4 par 8 [185-254 AD]
through His only-begotten Son Jesus Christ, what appears to us, who observe things by a right way of understanding, to be the standard and discipline delivered to the apostles by Jesus Christ, and which they handed down in succession to their posterity, the teachers of the holy Catholic Church of Rome.
Peter of Alexandria Genuine Acts of Peter (260-311ad)
A cycle of two hundred and eighty-five years from the incarnation of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ had rolled round, when the venerable Theonas, the bishop of this city of Rome, by an ethereal flight, mounted upwards to the celestial kingdoms. To him Peter, succeeding at the helm of the Church of Rome, was by all the clergy and the whole Christian community appointed bishop, the sixteenth in order from Mark the Evangelist, who was also archbishop of the city of Rome.
All the additional areas of accountability . . . Just Jesus for all people for sins forgiven!
Last word: my things have changed from 2013-219.
5 point smugness. This must have been what it felt like to talk to the Pharisees
9:17- "Reformed"? .... There is no option for young evangelicals other than the Reformed theology. ..... In the grand scheme of the historical theology, you do not have many options. If you believe in the inerrancy of the Scripture, ....
How in the world can you profess the sufficiency and in errancy of scripture and NOT be a Calvinist?
because some of us who believe in the inerrant scriptures read it BEFORE we ever read calvin, luther or arminius. its amazing what will happen when u havent been brainwashed beforehand. the scripture is CLEAR. "christ tasted death for every man"
@@caman171 I dare you to read that verse in context. Hints: "many," "brother," and " "sons.". Most importantly, one of the psalms quoted refers to faith... So those that have saving faith. The blood of Jesus is sufficient for all but it is efficient to the elect (only those who believe are saved).
@@rupertmedford3901 read what verse in context??? i also affirm that the blood of Jesus is sufficient for all, but efficient for the elect. thats not a calvinist thing. but there are some verses YOU should read "in context", like 1 jn 2:2 "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." and 2 peter 2:1 "They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them" so its obvious Jesus died for all, even if they are false prophets
@@caman171 I'm not going to engage your arguments while you ignore mine. Context works like this: a verse is situated among other verses that are situated in a chapter that's situated within the whole book. The book is written by an author and is therefore situated within that corpus. The corpus is from the culture, time, etc. The author supplies the meaning, not the reader. You are quoting out of context. It's not even clever.
@@rupertmedford3901 first off i didnt ignore anything. u asked me about a verse but never told me what verse u are referring to. second, the verses i quoted are not "talen out of context". third, not everything thats said needs a context in order to be understood as a stand alone statement. if i say "the sky is blue" it doesnt matter what context i am speaking in, the statement is still true.
Early Church Fathers on the Catholic Church Being Founded by Jesus Christ
Catholic is used 140 times prior to Constantine
Catholic Church appears 656 times
Catholics appears 192 times referring to a group
Catholic is used 1515 times in total
Ignatius of Antioch Epistle to the Smyraeans ch 8 [50-117 AD]
See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude of the people also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church...
Polycarp The Martyrdom of Polycarp ch 8 [69-155 AD]
Now, as soon as he had ceased praying, having made mention of all that had at any time come in contact with him, both small and great, illustrious and obscure, as well as the whole Catholic Church throughout the world, the time of his departure having arrived, they set him upon an ass, and conducted him into the city, the day being that of the great Sabbath.
Polycarp The Martyrdom of Polycarp ch 16 [69-155 AD]
"And of the elect, he was one indeed, the wonderful martyr Polycarp, who in our days was an apostolic and prophetic teacher, bishop of the Catholic Church in Smyrna. For every word which came forth from his mouth was fulfilled and will be fulfilled" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 16:2 [A.D. 155]).
Martyrdom of Polycarp greeting (69-155 ad)
The Church of God which sojourns at Smyrna, to the Church of God sojourning in Philomelium, and to all the congregations of the Holy and Catholic Church in every place: Mercy, peace, and love from God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, be multiplied.
Martyrdom of Polycarp Ch 19 (69-155 ad)
Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour of our souls, the Governor of our bodies, and the Shepherd of the Catholic Church throughout the world
Justin Martyr On the Sole Government of God ch 1 (100-165 ad)
For the men of former generations, who instituted private and public rites in honour of such as were more powerful, caused forgetfulness of the Catholic faith to take possession of their posterity
Irenaeus of Lyon Book 2 ch 9.1 (120-180 ad)
For even creation reveals Him who formed it, and the very work made suggests Him who made it, and the world manifests Him who ordered it. The Catholic Church, moreover, through the whole world, has received this tradition from the apostles.
Irenaeus of Lyons Adversus Haereses Book I Ch10.3 [120-180 AD]
...as these teachers who are destitute of truly divine wisdom maintain; while the Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said.
Irenaeus of Lyons Adversus Haereses Book III Chapter 4 preface [120-180 AD]
The truth is to be found nowhere else but in the Catholic Church, the sole depository of apostolical doctrine. Heresies are of recent formation, and cannot trace their origin up to the apostles.
Clement of Alexandria Stromata Book 7 ch 17 (150-215 ad)
From what has been said, then, it is my opinion that the true Church, that which is really ancient, is one, and that in it those who according to God's purpose are just, are enrolled. For from the very reason that God is one, and the Lord one, that which is in the highest degree honorable is lauded in consequence of its singleness, being an imitation of the one first principle. In the nature of the One, then, is associated in a joint heritage the one Church, which they strive to cut asunder into many sects. [+] Therefore in substance and idea, in origin, in pre-eminence, we say that the ancient and Catholic Church is alone, collecting as it does into the unity of the one faith -- which results from the peculiar Testaments, or rather the one Testament in different times by the will of the one God, through one Lord -- those already ordained, whom God predestinated, knowing before the foundation of the world that they would be righteous.
Clement of Alexandria Stromata book 4 ch 15 (150-215 ad)
For the apostle says, "All other things buy out of the shambles, asking no questions," with the exception of the things mentioned in the Catholic epistle of all the apostles, "with the consent of the Holy Ghost," which is written in the Acts of the Apostles, and conveyed to the faithful by the hands of Paul himself
Hippolytus Refutation of All Heresies Book IX ch 7 [170-236 AD]
Behold, into how great impiety that lawless one has proceeded, by inculcating adultery and murder at the same time! And withal, after such audacious acts, they, lost to all shame, attempt to call themselves a Catholic Church! ...not discerning with whom they ought to communicate, but indiscriminately offering communion to all...
Caius Fragment 3 Muratorianus par 3 [180-240 AD]
He wrote, besides these, one to Philemon, and one to Titus, and two to Timothy, in simple personal affection and love indeed; but yet these are hallowed in the esteem of the Catholic Church, and in the regulation of ecclesiastical discipline. There are also in circulation one to the Laodiceans, and another to the Alexandrians, forged under the name of Paul, and addressed against the heresy of Marcion; and there are also several others which cannot be received into the Catholic Church, for it is not suitable for gall to be mingled with honey.
Tertullian Prescription Against Heretics ch 32 (160- 240 ad)
"Where was [the heretic] Marcion, that shipmaster of Pontus, the zealous student of Stoicism? Where was Valentinus, the disciple of Platonism? For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago,--in the reign of Antoninus for the most part,--and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the Church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus, [the 13th Bishop of Rome 174-189AD] until on account of their ever restless curiosity,with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled
Tertullian Prescription Against Heretics ch 35 (160- 240 ad)
Catholics appeal always to evidence traceable to apostolic sources.
Tertullian Prescription Against Heretics ch 36 (160- 240 ad)
Catholics never change the Scriptures, which always testify for them.
Tertullian Against Marcion Book 4 ch 5 (160-240 ad)
By the rule of antiquity, the Catholic Gospels are found to be true, including the real St. Luke's. Marcion's only a mutilated edition. The heretic's weakness and inconsistency in ignoring the other Gospels. [+] On the whole, then, if that is evidently more true which is earlier, if that is earlier which is from the very beginning, if that is from the beginning which has the apostles for its authors, then it will certainly be quite as evident, that that comes down from the apostles, which has been kept as a sacred deposit in the churches of the apostles.
Tertullian Against Marcion Book 4 ch 4 (160-240 ad)
that portion of it which we alone receive is so much older than Marcion, that Marcion, himself once believed it, when in the first warmth of faith he contributed money to the Catholic church, which along with himself was afterwards rejected, when he fell away from our truth into his own heresy.
Tertullian Against Marcion Book 4 ch 9 (160-240 ad)
These types signified that a man, once a sinner, but afterwards purified from the stains thereof by the word of God, was bound to offer unto God in the temple a gift, even prayer and thanksgiving in the church through Christ Jesus, who is the Catholic Priest of the Father.
Tertullian against Praxeas Ch 2 (160-240 ad)
The Catholic doctrine of the Trinity and unity, sometimes called the Divine Economy, or dispensation of the personal relations of the Godhead
I love the freemasonry in the SBC ❤️❤️
surely you are joking......freemasonry is dangerous
I have went to church with both of these gentlemen listen to both of them preach talk to both of them and now I don't know what exactly is going on but it appears to me that they're going to the dark side! What is this nonsense with Russell Moore taking money from George Soros and then wanting to make political statements about what our country's policy should be towards illegal immigrants? What's going on at Southern Baptist Seminary and what's going on with its leadership? I can tell you this I went to ninth and O Baptist Church here in Louisville a very fine Church but when you get around people in that church that are supposed to be leaders and teachers in the Seminary that don't even know their Bible it makes you wonder what's going on!
Random question: d0es God forgive everyone?
Everyone who believes.
the whole main line church is melting down wow what a load of plastic crap
Does anyone still trust this man Mohler?
I do 🙂
The funny thing about this is that to the viewer who has no concept of what they're talking about, the only thing that that person is going to judge their arguments by is how nice each guy appears to be and by whether or not he is showing good will to the other. I think it's cool that they know what they're talking about though. I was saved in in southern baptist church, and the only part I remember was accepting Jesus into your heart and believing in John 3:16. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life."
+zdog1490 The problem with your salvation is that the Calvinist says the world is the world of the elect and you don't know if you are one of the Elect.
Anyone who truly believes in Christ for salvation is one of the elect.
I hold more to a Calvinist and Hobbes perspective.
Praise God!! We left our SBC strapped Church this week. Free At Last!! Thank God Almighty We're Free at Last!!! Progressive ....Haters of White Christians... hijacked the SBC....Run!! ...As fast as you can ...away from these Clowns!!
Can you please prove the free masonry claim. I would like know
I am not a mason , but I know many who are that are in SBC
@@charlescole357 so what is ur point? i know alcoholics, fornicators and liars in the SBC. you will find faulty people in any church or organiation. isnt church the best place for them to be?
Lukewarm debate. I wish you were either hot or cold so that we could get to the truth.
The problem being talked about here is that the SBC got so worldly and weak on any kind of theology that they were calling pastors who had been trained as United Methodist, Congregational, almost any modernist theological belief system of God hates the sin, but loves the sinner and wants everybody to be saved. If God wanted the whole world saved, it would be. He is God. I was raised in the SBC, and taught, and witnessed, and eventually was asked to leave because I was teaching that salvation was permanent, came by grace alone through faith alone, in Christ alone. I am thankful to God, it is finally being dragged kicking and screaming back to the right-minded thinking that it has needed for years.
Sincerely, Dear God of the Southern Baptist Convention, I pray to you now that you would heal the 3 people that have contracted the Ebola Virus. If you heal them, completely, within the next 24 hours. I will follow you for the rest of my life. Thank you.
MrBeautifulba1 Your shallow insincere prayer is disgusting. Please cease from being loathesome. Thank you.
Alexander Baus Thank You for being so understanding and forgiving.
+MrBeautifulba1 Oddly enough, miracles do not cause people to believe in God or accept Christ as Lord. It is simply a misguided assumption that "if only" God would do this or that, people would believe. It is also myopic to assume that the fact that God would allow people to have Ebola implies that either that God is not loving, not omnipotent or simply doesn't exist at all. There is much more to reality than "because something is terrible, there must be no God" and certainly much more to our accountability to our Creator than "If you don't do this, I will refuse to believe in you." I understand your sentiment, believe me, but you are merely scratching the surface of an issue and making a sweeping conclusion to something that goes much, much deeper than that.
Kevin Huddleston What is the "something that goes much, much deeper than that" which "I'm just scratching the surface of " ?
+MrBeautifulba1 I'm just referring to the question of why there is evil and suffering in the world created by (and being redeemed by) an all-loving, all-powerful God. The subject is complex and deep enough that "knock-down" arguments are essentially "pat answers".
Brother Mohler, in my opinion, in this discussion is exhibiting a certain smugness and air of superiority as if he has found a truth that has escaped Brother Hankins. I wonder when was the last time he has seen the fire and power of God demonstrated in his preaching or even in his presence. In other words, Jesus is our pattern and how He ministered and the results of His ministry should be evident in our churches and not this great distraction over calvinism-new or old. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is available to every person and not to a select number. God is no respecter of persons. Strange, but all of the Calvinists I hear seem to believe they are on the selected list. Following their line, some of them may be part of the losers and don't know it. On it's present course I fear for the future of the SBC.
What you call smugness I call confidence in the teachings of the Bible.
@@gregb6469 typical remark for a calvinist...you know it all. i bet Jesus could learn a thing or two from you
@@caman171 If you have ever heard Mohler preach, let me just say, you will need a tall glass of water afterwards!
I am done with Southern Baptist.
KLCJR77 PRODUCTIONS bye
Probably a good thing for you
I understand. Its perfectly OK to be, they have turned off course in some majorly concerning ways, I just believe especially in todays world, enough exposure and truth will win and set feee.
Did you hear about the two Calvinist that went out to win souls? neither did I.....haha
Calvinists are rarely consistent. Like their mentor, John Calvin, they switch from strict adherence to their doctrine that everything that happens is always ordained by God to God permits when it suits them. This is because the Bible does not teach that only God's will is being done always. Consistency would mean that all the evil is ordained, decreed by and therefore the will of God.
If anything ever happens anywhere that is outside of God's will, that is, contrary to what He intended to happen, then God is not the real God, but a fake, or a demigod. That God is sovereign is a basic aspect of His being. An unsovereign god is no God at all.
Well said
Seminaries, in my opinion, add very little to the Body of Christ. The Gospel of Christ is simple, not simplistic, but simple. Paul made it clear that all his theological training was more of a hindrance than a help. We are going to find that liberalism, which is a product of our seminaries-and I define liberalism as an ongoing, whether intentional or not, effort to diminish God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
You will find no teaching at Southern Seminary that diminishes God, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit.
Dr. Eric Hankins sounds utterly confused and does not have a doctrine of soteriology worth spit. Dr. Mohler is being overly gracious, and is nigh on depreciating the value of the Gospel.
Debates on How God saves is stumbling on the stumbling block...Jesus. There is only one way to be saved, believing on Jesus.The Jesus of the Bible, not the I "accepted Jesus as my personal savior" and yet there cannot be found any changes in the life that would indicate so. The Holy Spirit must be in constant agony at the intellectuals that sit around basking in the glow of their ego as they try to fool the unlearned into believing they are intelligent. There are Billions on this planet and in our own peer groups that just want and desperately need to hear the simple Gospel Message (1 Corinthians 15 1--4). God is not even impressed with our great knowledge of His Word, nor is He impressed with any man. But there are blessings for those that do His will; namely obeying the Great Commission.
10000 words spoken and nothing substantive stated. True bureucrats.
It is indeed mind-boggling to hear two Southern Baptists affirming that they view their respective views of Soteriology as deficient. If we evangelicals can't get what exactly it takes to be saved and how one is saved correct, the Devil and the demons of Hell must be singing their rendition of the Hallelujah Chorus. I just listened to a panel from the 2019 Shepherd's conference where our faith leaders tackled this issue. One panelist said the Calvinist theology was biblical theology. Where, pray tell, does that leave all of us who are not Calvinists? Surely, you can see the arrogance of such a statement. This debate is disgrace to the mission of Christ to preach the Gospel and make disciples. This is a distraction based on intellectual pride and no good has or will come of it.
Help me understand. At one part of your post, you're faulting people (Hankins and Mohler) for saying that their theology is imperfect and then at the other end of your post you are faulting people (Shepherd's conference) as arrogant for saying their theology is right. It seems like they can't win either way. What am I missing here?
It is an extremely terrible thing that the new president of the Southern Baptist convention wants women to have more power in the church and he would probably agree that it would be Biblical if Beth Moore would be the president of the Southern Baptist convention. There are too many feminists that have a say in the Southern Baptist convention.
1 Timothy 2:12 I do not permit a WIFE to teach or to exercise authority over her HUSBAND; rather, she is to remain quiet. .........
Woman and man means husband and wife. That is the way it should be translated, and is even noted this way in the NIV. "woman" and "man" is an irresponsible translation seeing as how men are using it to silence the entire other half of the body of Christ.
Wisdom is a woman and she speaks as a woman. You sure don't want her banned from the pulpit ;)
Proverbs 1:20 Out in the open wisdom calls aloud, she raises her voice in the public square; 21 on top of the wall she cries out, at the city gate she makes her speech:
Wisdom sends out her female servants (apostles):
Proverbs 9:3 She has sent out her young women to call from the highest places in the town,
Sheerah built cities.
1 Chronicles 7:24 His daughter was Sheerah, who built Lower and Upper Beth Horon as well as Uzzen Sheerah.
Song of Solomon 6:10 Who is she that looketh forth as the morning, fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and TERRIBLE as an army with banners?
Psalm 68:11 The Lord announces the word, and the women who proclaim it are a mighty throng: 12 "Kings and armies flee in haste; the women at home divide the plunder.
You are right--wife and husband make far more sense in the context.
Q. How many Southern Baptists does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A. One, a cockroach has six arms.
Who are these cats and what are the issues? Do they have a spine? The only analytical there is Is scripture. This discussion they are having is Completely worthless.