Just coming home from an emotionally draining corporate job, on the brink of despair. Opening YT. Seeing Daniel Mackler posted a new video. Evening is saved.
I LOVE the conclusion that abused artists' art could be more wonderful if they had the chance to work out their traumas! I'm sick of hearing that making art somehow requires being locked into suffering.
When you talk about someone who was extremely talented musically but was morally reprehensible, one name comes to my mind: JOHN LENNON. I’m a huge Beatles fan. I was born in 1960, so I was growing up when the Beatles were producing hit songs. I listened to my older sister’s records and I thought the Beatles were the best band ever. The White Album is still one of my all-time favorite albums. Then I found out more about who John Lennon really was. John Lennon married Cynthia Powell who then became Cynthia Lennon and they had a son named Julian. John admitted he physically abused (beat) his wife. Their housekeeper verifies this, as well. John Lennon admitted to this fact in an interview. He used to smack around his first son, Julian Lennon. All of this has been verified by those who witnessed it firsthand. John Lennon also admits he never bonded with his son Julian, was a distant parent at best, and felt no connection to him. John Lennon’s excuse was his busy schedule. He abused drugs and use to leave them lying around the house near Julian. This is from the man who preached PEACE & LOVE to the world. But in his home, Julian did not see much peace or love from his father. John cheated on Cynthia constantly. Finally, he met Yoko Ono and admitted Yoko was pregnant with his child. Cynthia and John divorced in 1968. Yoko miscarried. John’s relationship with Julian went from bad to worse. Even after John married Yoko, he had an 18 month affair with the couple's assistant, May Pang. John and Yoko have a son together- Sean Lennon. John was no longer actively touring the world, so he gave Sean his undivided attention. But mind you, he still has another son - Julian Lennon - who he almost completely ignores. In interviews, Julian Lennon has mentioned that he was devastated that is father gave Sean the love and attention he never received from his father. It was heartbreaking for Julian. Early in his relationship with Yoko, John Lennon set up paradigm that he followed until his untimely death. If you want access to me, you get Yoko Ono as part of the package. Paul McCartney recalls how he was shocked when Yoko Ono showed up in the recording studio one day. Paul said there was a strict “no girlfriends rule” - the studio was about work. You can see this pattern in future episodes of his life. For example, there is a famous episode where John Lennon and Chuck Berry are playing music together. John forces Yoko Ono on everyone. You can look up the whole video on TH-cam, but there is a famous part where Yoko One start screeching and Chuck Berry’s eyes just about pop out of his head !!! If you want of small sample of the caterwauling Yoko did here is the link: th-cam.com/video/qCFJsnUyzJg/w-d-xo.html John Lennon’s last album is called Double Fantasy, it was half John Lennon songs, and the other half was Yoko Ono’s “music.” Everyone I know who bought the album only listened to John’s music and felt they purchased only half an album - why in the world would anyone pay good money to hear Yoko imitate animal/love making sounds, in her vain attempt to pass that off as music ??? Then unfortunately things go from bad to worse. John Lennon is killed. At least now Julian can have some contact with his father through his dad’s possessions and have some financial security with an inheritance - BUT WAIT - Yoko holds up Julian getting his money, ensuring that she keeps part of Julian’s inheritance for herself. In the end, instead of getting the inheritance he should have received, Julian settled for a fraction of it. Julian did not want to put his younger brother Sean through a public legal battle. To make matters worse, Julian DID NOT receive personal items from his father in his inheritance. John Lennon could have given things to Julian when he was alive, but John had only one “real” son in his life - Sean. In the end, Julian had to pay through the nose to get just a few of his father’s items. I’ll say that again, Julian Lennon HAD TO PAY thousands and thousands of dollars just to have a few things from his dad. Julian had to buy his dad's possessions like he was just another Beatles collector, instead of being John Lennon's first born son. Julian has publicly said he forgives Yoko for being such a reprobate. He said he forgives Yoko, not for their relationship (they have no real relationship). Julian did it for his brother Sean. Julian has said he gave up a fortune to protect and preserve his relationship with Sean. Over and over again, Julian Lennon is a better man that his father ever was. Julian Lennon has said that he considers his father to be the ultimate hypocrite. John Lennon preached peace, love, and kindness while physical beating those closest to him, while completely ignoring their emotional needs for love and a stable home life. In this story, there are 4 main characters. Innocent Victim: Sean Lennon. Villains: John Lennon & Yoko Ono. The HERO: Julian Lennon.
Sean has access. You know Yoko has the eleventy billion dollars and growing that John left her, so Sean needs to have a sit down with Mom and ask her, “What in the Fuk? Bad enough my brother had to watch me get all the peace, love, and understanding you both preached....start spreadin’ the wealth......how about the parts that Julian so justly deserves....and STILL will always be emotionally short-changed. You weren’t even around when Dad had this “stuff” that Julian so rightly deserves. Letters to Julian , Mom.....really?.....he had to buy them! “ Obviously, you don’t need or care about Dad’s stuff, or you wouldn’t have put them up for sale. So why are you adding salt to Julian’s wounds.....and what does that tell me about you, Mom? Hey Mom....”Come together.....right now”.....so maybe we can all, as a family, have a “Happy Christmas”.....as this “War is Over” and you can show me how you practice what you preach. “Imagine” that. 💥 BAM!
magicrobharv, wow, thank you for taking the time to share all of that. I knew none of it. Without taking the time to verify any of it and assuming that is the truth, I’m horrified. Gosh, I wish I could un-know this story. I guess I can’t say that I’m really surprised. I know that there are wonderful people in the world but there seem to be a large number of total stinkers and simply reprehensible human beings. I recently saw Paul McCartney interviewed on Sunday Morning where he delicately mentioned Yoko Ono being in a band photo… I am horrified at what Cynthia and Julian have gone through. Again, thank you for your time and thoughts.
I sensed something not right about this couple since I first knew them and their works. But I wasn't aware of the domestic violence and issues of inheritance … thanks for putting all these details in words. It helps me connecting the dots.
Internal Family Systems (IFS) has helped me find peace and answers to the questions you ask here. This is a difficult discussion - at best - and one toward which I am glad you decided to contribute. I appreciate that you are willing to look at yourself, and to see your trauma (as well as that of those you mentioned) as a significant factor in understanding folks. As a musician and photographer, as well as therapist and writer . . . and parent of teenagers, I am grateful that I no longer feel I have to be perfect to be good. That inner permission has helped me mend some of my ways better than any criticism ever has or ever will. Thanks, Daniel.
The "great" artists of any time period are those who pleased and received the patronage of the ruling classes. Given the prevalence of mental illness and debauchery in those classes, it would make sense that they choose artists who reflect them as influencers of the masses. There is also the matter of unbridled ambition as a factor that outweighs talent, which is even more of a factor in the "greats" from non-artistic/creative endeavors. My thesis is that there is no "great" who abuses their child, and there needs to be a seismic shift in which we reject the cult of the Great Man and embrace the child-first ethos of our hunter gatherer forbears. Insightful work as always Daniel.
Maybe the truly great artists are the people whoheal themselves. A healed person may be greater work of art than any statue, painting, novel, or musical piece.
I agree, no-one is off the hook, but having an explanation helps to grieve and heal. You bring some sobering discussions. You explain things well and always with respect. I've wondered also about victims directing their efforts into some avenue of art so much, that they become brilliant. Of course, it's much better to be brilliant without the childhood traumas. You really are something. Thanks for explaining and sharing.
I am 2 yrs late on this comment. But there are 2 points I would like to make. 1. If we do things as children that we later see as wrong when we are adults, we must recognize that we as children have not reached a level of emotional maturity yet. 2. If, we as adults, have made serious mistakes that reflect emotional immaturity, then it can be taken as a wake-up call to grow, improve and accept responsibility. It is clear to me that you have matured beyond your younger emotional level and done the work to be a healthier person. If an artist or anyone else does not grow emotionally as a result of their mistakes, then they have not accepted responsibility for their actions. I cannot respect anyone who cannot grow and accept responsibily. I made serious mistakes as a young parent. I can easily see that they were the result of my traumatized childhood. That is why I have worked long and hard on myself to improve my mental health and I accept responsibility for my past so that I can be a better person each day of my life. Your difficult journey of growth has given your viewers an example of how to grow too. To me, this is more of what the world needs. To me, it is as fine a work of art that can exist. And you are also a very wonderful musician as well! I do not believe that being a psychologically healthy human being excludes being a great societal influence. If it did, I would care less about the latter than the former. That is because, in my opinion, this world would benefit more in an evolutionary and existential way from greater mental health than any other advances available.
I definitely agree with what you're saying, I guess the main question that comes up for me then is wondering what causes some people to grow and take responsibility for their actions vs. what causes some to refuse to. I'm not entirely sure but I think the surface level reason is that they are simply unable to face the things they've done because it would be too painful for them to accept. But then the question becomes why do they feel that way about it, and I don't really know lol
Thank you Daniel for exploring a truly, profoundly layered conundrum. I also, have wondered about many of the things that you have shared. What I tend to come back to is that these exceptional individuals have never really worked through the emotional facet of their trauma and indeed, intellectualize the pain. I do find that knowledge of their bad behavior has bummed me out and affected (effected?) my feelings about many unique musicians, artists, authors (who will remain un-named) whom I have really loved. It really frustrates me that these highly sensitive people seem to get it on one level, but that they refuse to get it on the deeper levels (or should I say the much more uncomfortable levels) and so they do the unconscious thing and project the pain "out there" and will not own it "in here" and indeed avoid the grueling work of transformation, remain willfully blind, and inflict their emotional retardation on the following generation.
Totally agree. The same happen to me when I noticed how people I admire were not that as good as I idolized. Jackie Chang who seems to be emotionally detached from his only one son, but then I read Changs biography and it was a traumatized upbringing. The same with Alice Miller. When I read Charles Bukowsky I felt I had breath oxigene for the first time in my life, how simple his approach of life is and his empathy toward ordinary people was like reading my own mind. Then I watched a video where he was drunk and violent with his lady and felt disapointed, but somehow related to his anger, it was an awkard feeling. Later I read his biography and I felt even more related with him and I could understand that my discomfort with his anger was actually a reflection of my own shadows, that i had also emotional abused most of my closed persons, including my children. Stop having idols and see people as they really are, including parents, helps me to stop replicating abuse and trauma one step at a time. Thats the power I have, over only my own behaviour when I accept my shadows, my anger, the monstee that I can also be.
I feel this way about my ex-guru - Maharaji, aka Prem Pal Singh Rawat - I don't like the things he did to various people, and this is a big reason I stopped supporting him. But did I not feel an incredible amount of love through him and his devotees? Life has tragedies. No one wants tragedies, but there are plenty. Grieving - yes, thank you, Daniel, for reminding me about this important psychological process. I care about Tchaikovsky and Alice Miller, too, and appreciate your words about them.
I don't see why you have to "care" about personalities what sexually abused small boys and a woman who abused her innocent child while preaching on the subject and making money and achieving fame from the very subject of on the impacts of child rearing. Do you think they DIDN'T KNOW they were doing demonic harm to innocent little humans? You can analyze and try to understand, but "care"?
I recently discovered Woody Guthrie and Pete Seeger. I also read Guthrie's biography. His family fell apart when he was 5 or 6 years old after their house burnt down. It must have been very tough times. Watch the "Power of Song" about Pete Seeger. It's really uplifting. Seeger was a very inspiring musician. Alice Miller's book "The Drama of being a child" has been such a blessing for me. I am now watching Mark Wolynn "It didn't start with you". And Family Constellations. I understand but still trying to 'feel it'. Margie Rogers
I come from where Pete Seeger is from. And the Gutries as well. I used to see his daughter Nora at some concerts and functions. I never really got into the folk music scene, or the far left activism. I think Pete was a nicer person, a family man.
Abuse is abuse and it puts me off the artist. I will choose someone else to listen to or watch, and minimise my audience and admiring comments on the abuser. Heaps of people have abusive upbringings and don't all abuse. Famous people get away with it more easily because everyone is admiring them, so they get over entitled and no one calls them to account.
Age old question. To respect the art but not the artist, yet both of these two talk about the other in some way. Alice's work helped X number of people who we don't know, and her family deeds tortured couple of people we do know. It's impossible to analyze this quantitatively or qualitatively. The only thing we can do is try to use art of ill people for good, and observe their wounds as we try heal our, preventing further damage for ourselves and others.
Student of Rhythm Correct, we cannot have one without the other, which of course doesn't mean we should not try to focus on one thing. Every aspect or phenomenon has a plus and minus side.
Just in the last month (!!!) I realised that to Really Create, WE have to become our own work of art. A block that we must ourselves carve to reveal our True Form. Whatever we produce that comes from/is expressed as a result of our trauma cannot truly set anyone free, as beautiful or profound etc., as it may be. All the beauty we see, hear externally, is nothing to the beauty a truly revealed soul is, that shines through the 'vehicle" of the body.
Oct. 2021 Don't know if Daniel Mackler will ever see this, but one of the best examples of someone experiencing "the feelings of the child she was at the time it happened" is "Helen" who was described in Dr. Sarno's Healing Back Pain. I think it was his 1st book published. His understanding of what the mind is and how the body protects us or helps us avoid unpleasant feelings impressed me very much. This refers to what Daniel says near the end of the video about grieving and getting in touch with one's original experience.
Good point very interesting. could creativity be filtered though a different channel that has little to do with the individual and more to do with that person having access to it or not. Human history is full of unresolved trauma. The only real thing we get from our parents is their unresolved trauma. Its just now more people are becoming a bit wiser and trying to solve it.
No. That's not the only real thing we get from our parents. We can also get the benefit of the example of their RESOLVED trauma, as we receive it. You did get some of that, yes?
@@truthismyfriend4196 No in my case no. I am the only child of 2 narcissitic parents. IMO dealing with your own trauma is a very recent idea. and very few have the courage to go on this path. I have never meet IRL anyone that even had the willpower to touch the subject of trauma. Denial was a major way of living life in my enviroment.
Dia P my parents also were narcissists- they have both since passed away. They have lived a very difficult life, they Li ed through the war. My Dad was a Russian foot soldier with severe PTSD. Yes as a result I’ve also lived a traumatic life...namely having my identical twin with severe autism forcefully taken away from the family home of six siblings. The government took her way because we lived on a farm and she didn’t have a “special “ school to attend. At the age of ten authorities came to our home and told me my identical twin was going to receive an “education “. Instead she was dragged a long way away institutionalised and abused in every way. It has taken me thirty years to fight for our rights against the beaurocratic bullshit to finally be reunited. At least now I have the opportunity to help her recover from all the abuse. My point here is that although I’ve suffered a tremendous amount, I didn’t go through the war as my parents did. I didn’t suffer poverty like my Dad. I find it helps me to have compassion for what they went through rather than holding on to anger. There are times when I’m feeling vulnerable that I hate my mum for being such a devout religious person but oh the hypocrisy...then I think of the good things about her and compare her to other people’s Mums who were sexually promiscuous and or negligent and have gratitude that at least my mum had a lot of good attributes and values that she past on. My point is, sometimes we can’t stay stuck in bitterness because it only serves to make us miserable.
This is why, as Daniel says in another video, people need to consider long and hard before having a child and it isn't only the inherited trauma, Woody Guthrie died of, and passed on Huntingtons to several of his children who died young which is why people need to be screened for inheritable diseases as well before having children. I think Guthrie had issues/trauma and one wonders how sincere he was about the movements he was involved in or whether or not he was a communal narcissist, as Bob Dylan is said to be.
It's great that you can separate the intellectual and artistic prowess of the people you admire from the personal side, even though they've done terrible things, I've come up with the same dilemma, but I find difficult to separate the person from the work, don't know why.
If you learnt or knew beforehand about these artists being horrible people first, then secondly hearing or learning about thier creative expression, productivity or output; would you then admire thier creativity or thier work ? For example, if you read Alice Millers sons biography before reading Alice Millers books.
Never meet your heroes. People do bad things because they receive no consequences for the bad things they have done. Having bad things happen to you doesn't get you off the hook for being evil.
It's a blessing to exist in these times because we have easy access to healing modalities which help us in overcoming trauma. When we heal ourselves, we do not inflict the abuse we suffered onto others. We recognize that what we went through wasn't our fault, wasn't fair or justified and that we have the right and power to move on from abusive people and situations. The trauma I suffered ends with me. I am not going to perpetuate it because I suffered the same.
Did I love my ex-Narc's wining and dining me and the initial golden period of 'love' he created? ABSOLUTELY! Do I love it now and wish to relive that enjoyable, artificial masterpiece of an act over and over again? NO! Narc used good for evil purposes. As for 'real' artists, once they turn me off, I'm done. And, lately, I find myself caring less and less about Art. I turn to creating my own, if anything.
Sometimes I think the art is like its own thing, separate from, issued from but not of the artist. The wounded or wounding person can do great things in art or as a doctor or mentor or author and then be a monster in their private life. It is as if they are not fully conscious or aware of themselves in all aspects. And if they are aware, then, wow, that is just awful. It is the perp owning their crime (we wish) but, no, they don't admit it even to themselves much less to their victims or accusers. But the art is a totally unconscious thing apart.
3:33 Woah woah. Can you give a link to this? Cause I read all about Tchaikovsky and the worst thing I read about him was that he just had a relationship with his 20 year old student when he was in his 40s.
i got the info from the book "tchaikovsky: a biography" by anthony holden. just skimmed through it and found a reference, on page 80. there it said tchaikovsky had a 12 year old boy servant named Alexey, and the biographer wrote "there is no doubt that Alexey performed sexual services for Tchaikovsky." later in the paragraph it said that tchaikovsky lost sexual interest in him by the time the boy had become 18. there may be other references in the book that i couldn't find, but this one was clear.
Daniel Mackler I'm skeptical. Like, what proof does this biographer have to support his claim? I've done a lot of research on Tchaikovsky and never found anything like this. I'm not one of those people who would defend an artist to the death when they've done something deplorable but it's really unsettling when loads of artist/celebrity gets accused of pedophilia/sexual assault when there's no proof. Especially because it's becoming a bit of a trend to label a long-dead artist as a gay or pedophile. And let's not forget that all artists have their haters where they'd do anything to smear their name. With Tchaikovsky especially, there's very good reason to think that that biographer is making it up because he thinks gay men are all pedophiles.
hi Ruth, i don't remember getting any sense of homophobia from the biographer, but you would have to judge that for yourself. from what i remember he liked tchaikovsky very much. also, the biographer cited another book about the pedophilia claim, so i guess you'd have to follow the trail to be more sure. if you do look it up i'd be curious to know what you think. all the best, daniel
I would call 20 year old, honestly a responsible adult and hardly a scandal. You are comparing a 20 year old woman of Tchaikovsky's time to a generation snowflake little girl of 20 years today.
Precedent shows again and again that extraordinary art (or efforts) is born of extraordinary circumstances. Someone who is enjoying a wholesome life feels no need to do extraordinary things, they are feeling joyful already. They can do things, or not. It doesn't change how they feel.
Great topic, Dan. I always have to struggle with coming to terms with the dichotomy of persons I admire .. but as time goes by, I see more & more, perhaps the problem is with me. Why am I shocked in the first place? Because we tend to think in terms of black & white. We tend to see people as “ good”, or “bad”. So artists are revered ..respected.. adored.. I am learning how to appreciate arts & literature, in the moment, as a separate thing from the person.. because the person is not the creativity .. As for what people do in their private life, well it’s not my place to straighten that out. My responsibility is to be respectful to myself & others. Period. ~ People who become famous for being brilliant, well, that’s about the people who worship others...That’s how I see it. ~ As for bad behavior, at some point one has to wake up & be a human being. And let go of blaming others, even let go of blaming parents. ~ As to your final question, who knows ?
What i've come to understand is that some people really do not like children. Period. The babies are born perhaps because that is what is expected of (all) adults in society or the pregnancy was a mistake or they're forced to tolerate the child's presence ... i think we just have to accept not all adults have a soft spot for children. More often than not those who exploit and take advantage of children would never try their shit on an 'equal'.
I've been watching your videos since several days/weeks and you amuse me "in so many ways".. :D Some videos I find very insightful and valuable, some are like "wow that guy is speaking my thoughts", and some are like "what a random bullshit!". I used to write similar stuff down and then I stopped, thinking it's all bullshit. Then I realised that stopping was a mistake.. You remind me of myself. The biggest message I personally got here is that it not always the content that matters. There's something between the lines, yes, the act of expressing oneself.. searching.. It's always such a discovery when one notices the value of "how" rather than "what". You're inspiring people, that's what matters :) ..and isn't being able to see a person as good and bad at the same time one of skills that a healthy child develops? The opposite of "splitting"?
If you can accept others are a mix of good and bad, have compassion for the things that led to their bad behaviors, and then allow them into your life (mind and heart) in various ways, why can't you do that for your own family? (Not a knock on you, but a genuine query. I am struggling with the same question.)
Where does the stereotype of the 'angst-ridden' artist, the 'Bohemian' art culture come into play? Where does the 'sex, drugs, and rock and roll' ethos play a part? I sense that although many artists are troubled individuals, they seem to be part of an unhealthy artistic community/culture. I am a painter, and have moved completely out of the 'art scene' because it is so toxic.
I like the interesting story that we choose our lives before we come in to them, and we have agendas for the life that include learning more deeply about this or that experience, expanding our understanding of the meanings they have; and also providing opportunities for others to learn, such as for you to share your insights requires that you have these experiences, etc. Tchikowski helped you process these ideas and help others with your youtube channel. If we are all a connected whole as some other stories suggest, then the Tchikowski part of you sent messages of value to the Daniel part of you. Also i know that for me i have seen clearly how very important tracks of my own learning completely depended on my having experienced a series of deeply traumatic happenings. And those played profound roles in some of my favorite creative manifestations. So, good? Bad? Who knows?
It is one thing to seperate the ARTIST from their art. Which I also personally not agree with, but I am more tolerant of it, if others do so. Still personally, whatever art I perceive, I always perceive the artist through their art - the person. So, knowing that someone has hurt others and has not taken responsibility for it will always be there in my perception of their art. But lets leave ARTISTS aside for a moment. Alice Miller is a completely different case from artists (!) and to split her scientific work from the abusive mother she was is absolutely not ok, even potentially dangerous. At least you have to question her teachings whether they are skewed and have an underlying violent theme going on, that you haven't been able to percieve so far. You have to question if someone so SPLIT could have really produced value in their message? Where in her teachings do her short-comings show up? Same with political activists or basically any other person who teach/portray a message of compassion, peace, integrity, honesty, cooperation, healing and so forth, but do not hold up to their own message in their personal life. For you, or others to seperate the teaching from the person is so SPLIT. People are NOT seperate from their message. Again with the artists it is a different story (maybe a gradual one, but one can clearly point out the difference). But even there! - please make the thought experiment of: Everything we know about Hitler is true, but then he was also the composer of amazing music of the likes of Bach (or take Tschaikowsky, which ever music moves you most). Would you still be going on about totally seperating this amazing wonderful soulshaking music from the hate, dehumanization and systematic destruction of Hitler? I don't believe you could do this. Not necessarily because of some hidden ugliness in the music you are overseeing, but because of the denial it would mean to focus on the beauty. Pedophilia from a guy who lived over a hundred years ago you might be able to tolerate and split off while hearing the music. But with Mr. Hitler (still with the thought experiment) I doubt you could do it - the music might still move you, but you would also feel pain. You - as the compassionate person I perceive you to be - would not be able to go this far.
We value any human that becomes famous or notorious. We don't care about their deeds or character. Would you qualify "horrible people" with "people who did horrible things" if they weren't famous?
That question at the end has me wondering if we would even like their music and it’s message had they been in a healthy, loving family environment. Would we identify with someone’s music or their love ballad if it hadn’t projected a lost parental need onto a partner or person they’re singing to/about? Is it because we are traumatized to that we feel such a connection to these artists? Then I wonder, would the more healthy alternative be like a “bitch slap” in the face? Would an artist that praises and expresses a healthier family life be rejected by people who don’t want to acknowledge how abused or toxic their environment was/is?
It's such an interesting dichotomy, holding oneself and others accountable without condemning. You kind of first have to overcome, grieve as you say, all the pain and anger before you can do it though, with yourself and others! I think grieving as you so often talk about is really opening yourself up to the pain that was caused you, to the damage and loss, which frees you to seeing things clearly, you're no longer trapped in a reactive pattern like blame and condemnation and a kind of pain-addled judgement. But how do we talk to those around us and to ourselves about what we are doing to one another? I'm so far from perfect, my actions and behaviours are harming the world around me all the time... god still so much pain to process. I suppose if it's this hard for me to do I can't reasonably condemn others for struggling with whatever pain they're trying to get over. I mean surely not, by definition - pain is by definition something that's incredibly difficult to integrate...
I draw a line when and can’t resonate with pieces of art when child abuse is something the artist did. ESPECIALLY when they were pedophiles and raped children (they cant have sex with them because sex is when both sides are adults and have given consent) i see art as an extension of a person and I can’t support their hypocrisy.
All Norwegians have to face this dilemma regarding Hamsun. The State has, on their behalf, made some choices: his art is taught in schools, but there is no street carrying his name. There is no statue. Personally, I still face this dilemma with artists a lot. But I realise that somewhat, I just need to enjoy the art and leave the person out of it. (While maybe also evaluating if paying for this art would bring in an extra dimension of sponsoring a wrong cause.) It was interesting how Norwegians also solved "a problem" of Hamsun after WWII. The solution to save his life was to deem him insane - except he wasn't. He published two more books in mental asylum.
I think you can appreciate parts of a person without agreeing with all of their behaviours and opinions. You probably don't like 100% of what your friend does and thinks. Maybe 95%. Maybe you like 60% of a parent who you love but who hurt you. And maybe you like 10% of a guy who wrote amazing music and did terrible things. People aren't black and white, so we shouldn't expect that our opinion of them is black or white. With that said, it's possible that a person's opinions or actions might be too bad for you to appreciate the rest of them. But I don't think that liking someone's music means you're "letting them off the hook". You're probably not letting your friend off the hook when they do something bad, but that doesn't mean you can't be friends with them. To me, art comes from such a deep place, and opinions and actions are surface things. And to me it gives me hope knowing that these people who have done horrible things are actually just humans underneath. It means the world doesn't HAVE to be bad, that we can actually make the world better by taking care of each other and by helping people heal and change.
You can judge a paucity of spiritual properties from a person's lamentable actions and you're forced to reevaluate the meaning of their works. Sometimes dark behavior indicates a dark past which lends depth to art. Sometimes the art is an outgrowth of a dark impulse, usually narcissism or simple intellectual hubris. The medium and content of the art are also important. Non-lyrical music doesn't have an inherent rhetorical thrust, barring commentary from the creator or some complex cultural context (Wagner springs to mind). So the distinction between Tchaikovsky and Guthrie is clear, insofar as there is a moral/rhetorical injunction in the lyrics of a Guthrie song, that song is more morally suspect than the purely abstract compositions of Tchaikovsky, assuming a more-or-less equal degree of suspicion of either as a consequence of our knowledge of their life-histories.
Exodus 34:7 - "Keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation.” Looking at this Bible verse, I have realised that the so-caled sins refer to the unresolved trauma of our previous generations. People have completely misinterpreted it. Unresolved trauma is what we pass on to the next generations. That's what the children suffer from and inflict to their children. Amazing insight, Daniel! Keep up good work.
All very valid points. We do not really know if any of the artists you mentioned held themselves accountable for their bad behavior and in so doing became more developed in their soul, healed perhaps in ways we are not aware. I did not know about the things you mentioned. Still, when a modern-day artist is accused of pedophilia or hemophilia, this is a very evil thing. If ever found to be true the first inclination is to ignore their music. It does not matter anymore. If anyone harms a child or teen without any remorse, do you really care about a beautiful piece of music or painting they did? It is like being served cake contaminated with bird droppings. Do you still want to eat that? No. Now, if the artist is remorseful, repentant and never repeats the offense, then it is easier to be curious about their artistic talents. We are all hellish misfits until we commit our lives to being instruments of God and Heaven.
This is essentially the thesis of my life. Mental/Emotional/Social/Relationship Health FIRST!!!!! Everything non-essential, second. We need to get away from the 'Suffering Artist who Puts on a Brave Face', we need to move away from righteousness. It starves our humanity.
@10:59 "If these artists had had a chance to work out their traumas, their art could have been so much more wonderful" --> Maybe artwork is the product of the artist's split-off, unprocessed traumas and unfulfilled wishes. If these artists had worked out their traumas, they might not have become artists at all. They might have become balanced, healthy and warm people. It would not be necessary for them to sell their inner beauty: they would own it within themselves and live their beauty.
I don't support the artist or writers who do evil things but their negative expery help them in their creativity.rilke said if i send away my demons the angels vanish..well adjusted people cant explore the depths of life. A poet i interview ed told 7:56
I can absolutely relate to these feelings in all aspects! There are a # of artists (mostly musical) that i have been following and PLAYING their MUSIC on PIANO for decades!! By chance at times i read or through other sources learn different things about them that really upset or sadden me. It's extreamy difficult to seperate the negative from the revering after so many years of getting literally lost(in the VERY BEST POSSIBLE WAY) in their CREATIONS /ARTISTRY....... But as u mentioned and i say in my AlAnon meetings (proud 29 year member and LIFER) I've hurt people and done hurtful things myself i would immagine through my OWN HURT or BEING HURT through the years. It's a great insight, one to be taken through ALL ANGLES before giving/passing judgment!! I thank you PROFUSELY for your ponderings and insight. 🎼🎵🎶🎤💝
i know its late to post (8 months later) , but i wanted to comment on your last statement of the video. This may come out as stupid but what if they are (so) talented because of their bad childhood/past. I want to underline the (so). What if they focused so much on their talents because they wanted to 'replace' their bad relationship with family/past, with a good relationship between them and an object/proffession . Some of them maybe couldnt love A PERSON anymore (after abuse etc), but we all need to feel that we 'build' (SO) talented. If anyone has an opinion on this it will be very very welcomed , thank you :)
Once I know about the awful things an artist did I can no longer enjoy their creative fruit. There are A LOT of artists to choose from in every area of art that there is, I don't need to listen to a pedophile symphony or whatever. I am so tired of hearing about WHY people do terrible things as if that's some kind of excuse. Most people who survive terrible childhoods don't grow up to be abusive monsters with no self awareness. It's a different story if an abuser sees the error of their ways and tries to make amends, but I'm not going to give anyone a pass just because they happened to be talented. Talent is extremely overrated.
when can healing process be completed , I think it is kinda unfair to be the abused child's responsibilities to heal them selves while my parents to get away with their responsiblies to teach well their kids
This is an interesting topic as a person's background can really either tarnish or add upon their commercial success. Gary Glitter and Bill Cosby are other good examples of how their material is good but their characters tarnish them.
dodecachordal extispicium A lot of people come from abusive backgrounds - it's just the famous ones who get heard. And use it as an excuse to justify behaving badly.
... and how many abused children grow into adults with crushed potential - who knows what art they may have produced - i'm sure we can all think of someone who drank/drugged/worked/shopped/gambled away their lives, abandoning family members and their own undeveloped capacities in the process
Hi Daniel, I’m so sorry I posted my last comment. You were probably having a nice day and then hopefully didn’t have to read about a difficult situation. I’m basically a happy person and live a simple life. I don’t let it get in the way. I appreciate your insights and honesty. Thank you, Debra Lynn
I think we all are fans of various creative geniuses ..then the bomshell drops and you find out that they were horrible people or partners .. one of mine was James Brown ..
Albert Einstein abandoned his kids. His son was schizophrenic and died at age 48 in a mental institution. (That's the story I heard anyway.) I got rid of my Einstein poster.
Disagree on the last point. Great art comes from from great dysfunction. Think of the dullest, most non sociable, dead beat of a party scene if he ever went to one, the schizoid type then that might be the human without any flaws, and who never harms anyone else. He would not be the least bit artistic. To be great you have to be flawed. A glacier doesn't flow without cracking and we are all glaciers moving through life.
Don't expect your role models to be perfect. This is a good lesson for children. It inoculates against hero worship, one essential feature necessary for a demagogue to succeed in seducing enough voters - credulity. Many people complain about Lance Armstrong being a "bad role model". I say no, it is right and good for children to be disillusioned by a drug cheating athlete, to see their heroes have feet of clay and not to necessarily trust in their betters. I wish for ALL children to be disappointed by their childhood heroes and to have their fantasies shattered into a thousand pieces. It may confer immunity to seductive squawkers who with their tongues seduce whole nations to their doom. "Good role models for children" are good fertile soil for the Hitlers and Trumps of the future to take root.
The notion that a person who doesn't express himself socially is unartistic is false. This judgement of the superficial social 'seeming' of individuals is a major contributing factor to social anxiety. This is why people feel unrecognized in their skin - you, and the 'normal' people deem that the narrative you construct around their behavior reflects their inner reality. This notion is ignorant and psychologically violent. Generally it springs from spite: those who allow their behavior to be defined by social norms recognize superior integrity in the mind of the man who rejects these norms. To attest to the legitimacy of their choice to cave under social pressure and mirror their abuse by becoming themselves the bearers of unethical norms, they assault him with the essentialization and rejection they fear. They cast him as an inhuman creature without a worthy soul, because he exposes their weakness. Such is the nature of your characterization of the social outsider. While it's true that people are imperfect, reading a theme into your comments, it appears that for you this constitutes a 'reason' to hold yourself to an excessively low standard. Painful as it may be to face partial social rejection when one adheres to one's own independent code of conduct, doing so is not arrogance; it is merely self-respect. Becoming inauthentic is the even greater price paid by those desperate to be accepted. While I always find it misguided to judge such 'decisions' right or wrong - they are deeply personal and contextual - the 'othering' of the unsocial person is a despicable sort of abuse which I cannot tolerate in any capacity. It should be obvious to anyone that when we abuse someone in this way we are acting ignobly. You have made reasonable points and don't appear to be a fool, which disappoints me all the more - what must be done to bring about peaceful attitudes towards those who struggle with social life and self-development? Have you read any philosophy on this subject of self and social identity? Someone like Sartre is brilliant on this, and personally his work 'Being and Nothingness' speaks to me, but there also are many others with more accessible writing styles with much to teach us from the school of existentialism. Such an understanding is essential to be aware of the condition we find ourselves in today and to support others in this difficult social context.
I think you fly off the handle. I don't really know what you're trying to say. "All heroes have feet of clay". Self evident since what we see is half constructed by ourselves and not in total agreement with the reality. "Art comes from great dysfunction". Normal functioning means means that most of the deep down impulses are suppressed and from that comes great art. If you are quiet and very stable you would not have that reservoir of angels and demons to tap. Also with great genius. I disagree with Daniel's statement about dysfunction impeding even better creativity. Tesla and Newton were great because their near dysfunctions flowed through into maths, physics and technology. Both were virgins. "Being disappointed with role models is good for you". It allows one to calibrate our perception of reality with reality, a good training ground for scepticism and essential for democracy. If more people had been disappointed with Ben Johnson and Lance Armstrong then perhaps fewer of us would have had cause to be disappointed with a Donald Trump presidency. Every teenager should be bitterly disappointed with a role model because hero worship of childhood is best left behind along with Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.
I feel it is a dangerous perspective to follow (and that society pushes us to follow) to question am I perfect? and compare ourselves with a perverted person.... well no I'm not perfect AND I'm not perverted either! society and perverted people tend to see error and perversion to be two similar things and it is not! humen error is not malicious, whereas what these artists did once adults, with their intellectual baggages they CHOSE to be perverted. many abused children CHOOSE not to hurt and even when they do they get humble and look for recovery..... there is a real need in society to evolve to differenciate human error from abuse and perversion.... they are two different things from different origines. Until we do that we will be stuck in a recycle cycle as humanity
Great video. Such an important topic for exploration, one available to everyone. 🙏🏼✨🙌🏼 everything is opportunity for our healing, awakening. And it’s a messy path in doing that.
Just coming home from an emotionally draining corporate job, on the brink of despair. Opening YT. Seeing Daniel Mackler posted a new video. Evening is saved.
It is healthy to feel horrible when we lead a horrible life, surrounded by horrible people. Bad emotions have a purpose, we need to stop fighting them
I LOVE the conclusion that abused artists' art could be more wonderful if they had the chance to work out their traumas! I'm sick of hearing that making art somehow requires being locked into suffering.
Hits Home
Yep they created those great arts despite the sufferings and trauma that they went through not because of it
I agree
This is quickly becoming one of my favorite channels!
do you know any similar channel like these?
@@eastcow check out psychology in seattle!
Mine too ❤️
Don't stop posting videos.
yeah please keep posting! i've been learning a lot for myself. Hey Daniel Mackler you helped me a lot :)
When you talk about someone who was extremely talented musically but was morally reprehensible, one name comes to my mind: JOHN LENNON. I’m a huge Beatles fan. I was born in 1960, so I was growing up when the Beatles were producing hit songs. I listened to my older sister’s records and I thought the Beatles were the best band ever. The White Album is still one of my all-time favorite albums.
Then I found out more about who John Lennon really was. John Lennon married Cynthia Powell who then became Cynthia Lennon and they had a son named Julian. John admitted he physically abused (beat) his wife. Their housekeeper verifies this, as well. John Lennon admitted to this fact in an interview. He used to smack around his first son, Julian Lennon. All of this has been verified by those who witnessed it firsthand. John Lennon also admits he never bonded with his son Julian, was a distant parent at best, and felt no connection to him. John Lennon’s excuse was his busy schedule. He abused drugs and use to leave them lying around the house near Julian. This is from the man who preached PEACE & LOVE to the world. But in his home, Julian did not see much peace or love from his father. John cheated on Cynthia constantly. Finally, he met Yoko Ono and admitted Yoko was pregnant with his child. Cynthia and John divorced in 1968. Yoko miscarried. John’s relationship with Julian went from bad to worse. Even after John married Yoko, he had an 18 month affair with the couple's assistant, May Pang.
John and Yoko have a son together- Sean Lennon. John was no longer actively touring the world, so he gave Sean his undivided attention. But mind you, he still has another son - Julian Lennon - who he almost completely ignores. In interviews, Julian Lennon has mentioned that he was devastated that is father gave Sean the love and attention he never received from his father. It was heartbreaking for Julian.
Early in his relationship with Yoko, John Lennon set up paradigm that he followed until his untimely death. If you want access to me, you get Yoko Ono as part of the package. Paul McCartney recalls how he was shocked when Yoko Ono showed up in the recording studio one day. Paul said there was a strict “no girlfriends rule” - the studio was about work. You can see this pattern in future episodes of his life. For example, there is a famous episode where John Lennon and Chuck Berry are playing music together. John forces Yoko Ono on everyone. You can look up the whole video on TH-cam, but there is a famous part where Yoko One start screeching and Chuck Berry’s eyes just about pop out of his head !!! If you want of small sample of the caterwauling Yoko did here is the link: th-cam.com/video/qCFJsnUyzJg/w-d-xo.html
John Lennon’s last album is called Double Fantasy, it was half John Lennon songs, and the other half was Yoko Ono’s “music.” Everyone I know who bought the album only listened to John’s music and felt they purchased only half an album - why in the world would anyone pay good money to hear Yoko imitate animal/love making sounds, in her vain attempt to pass that off as music ???
Then unfortunately things go from bad to worse. John Lennon is killed. At least now Julian can have some contact with his father through his dad’s possessions and have some financial security with an inheritance - BUT WAIT - Yoko holds up Julian getting his money, ensuring that she keeps part of Julian’s inheritance for herself. In the end, instead of getting the inheritance he should have received, Julian settled for a fraction of it. Julian did not want to put his younger brother Sean through a public legal battle. To make matters worse, Julian DID NOT receive personal items from his father in his inheritance. John Lennon could have given things to Julian when he was alive, but John had only one “real” son in his life - Sean.
In the end, Julian had to pay through the nose to get just a few of his father’s items. I’ll say that again, Julian Lennon HAD TO PAY thousands and thousands of dollars just to have a few things from his dad. Julian had to buy his dad's possessions like he was just another Beatles collector, instead of being John Lennon's first born son. Julian has publicly said he forgives Yoko for being such a reprobate. He said he forgives Yoko, not for their relationship (they have no real relationship). Julian did it for his brother Sean. Julian has said he gave up a fortune to protect and preserve his relationship with Sean. Over and over again, Julian Lennon is a better man that his father ever was. Julian Lennon has said that he considers his father to be the ultimate hypocrite. John Lennon preached peace, love, and kindness while physical beating those closest to him, while completely ignoring their emotional needs for love and a stable home life.
In this story, there are 4 main characters. Innocent Victim: Sean Lennon. Villains: John Lennon & Yoko Ono. The HERO: Julian Lennon.
magicrobharv AMAZINGLY PUT!!
Sean has access. You know Yoko has the eleventy billion dollars and growing that John left her, so Sean needs to have a sit down with Mom and ask her, “What in the Fuk? Bad enough my brother had to watch me get all the peace, love, and understanding you both preached....start spreadin’ the wealth......how about the parts that Julian so justly deserves....and STILL will always be emotionally short-changed. You weren’t even around when Dad had this “stuff” that Julian so rightly deserves. Letters to Julian , Mom.....really?.....he had to buy them! “
Obviously, you don’t need or care about Dad’s stuff, or you wouldn’t have put them up for sale. So why are you adding salt to Julian’s wounds.....and what does that tell me about you, Mom?
Hey Mom....”Come together.....right now”.....so maybe we can all, as a family, have a “Happy Christmas”.....as this “War is Over” and you can show me how you practice what you preach.
“Imagine” that. 💥 BAM!
magicrobharv, wow, thank you for taking the time to share all of that. I knew none of it. Without taking the time to verify any of it and assuming that is the truth, I’m horrified. Gosh, I wish I could un-know this story. I guess I can’t say that I’m really surprised. I know that there are wonderful people in the world but there seem to be a large number of total stinkers and simply reprehensible human beings. I recently saw Paul McCartney interviewed on Sunday Morning where he delicately mentioned Yoko Ono being in a band photo… I am horrified at what Cynthia and Julian have gone through. Again, thank you for your time and thoughts.
I sensed something not right about this couple since I first knew them and their works. But I wasn't aware of the domestic violence and issues of inheritance … thanks for putting all these details in words. It helps me connecting the dots.
Thanks for the mini-essay. I thought about John Lennon during this video, too.
Internal Family Systems (IFS) has helped me find peace and answers to the questions you ask here.
This is a difficult discussion - at best - and one toward which I am glad you decided to contribute.
I appreciate that you are willing to look at yourself, and to see your trauma (as well as that of those you mentioned) as a significant factor in understanding folks.
As a musician and photographer, as well as therapist and writer . . . and parent of teenagers, I am grateful that I no longer feel I have to be perfect to be good. That inner permission has helped me mend some of my ways better than any criticism ever has or ever will.
Thanks, Daniel.
The "great" artists of any time period are those who pleased and received the patronage of the ruling classes. Given the prevalence of mental illness and debauchery in those classes, it would make sense that they choose artists who reflect them as influencers of the masses. There is also the matter of unbridled ambition as a factor that outweighs talent, which is even more of a factor in the "greats" from non-artistic/creative endeavors. My thesis is that there is no "great" who abuses their child, and there needs to be a seismic shift in which we reject the cult of the Great Man and embrace the child-first ethos of our hunter gatherer forbears. Insightful work as always Daniel.
Maybe the truly great artists are the people whoheal themselves. A healed person may be greater work of art than any statue, painting, novel, or musical piece.
@@NJGuy1973 They would be, but I've never met one.
I agree, no-one is off the hook, but having an explanation helps to grieve and heal. You bring some sobering discussions. You explain things well and always with respect. I've wondered also about victims directing their efforts into some avenue of art so much, that they become brilliant. Of course, it's much better to be brilliant without the childhood traumas. You really are something. Thanks for explaining and sharing.
I am 2 yrs late on this comment. But there are 2 points I would like to make.
1. If we do things as children that we later see as wrong when we are adults, we must recognize that we as children have not reached a level of emotional maturity yet.
2. If, we as adults, have made serious mistakes that reflect emotional immaturity, then it can be taken as a wake-up call to grow, improve and accept responsibility.
It is clear to me that you have matured beyond your younger emotional level and done the work to be a healthier person. If an artist or anyone else does not grow emotionally as a result of their mistakes, then they have not accepted responsibility for their actions. I cannot respect anyone who cannot grow and accept responsibily. I made serious mistakes as a young parent. I can easily see that they were the result of my traumatized childhood. That is why I have worked long and hard on myself to improve my mental health and I accept responsibility for my past so that I can be a better person each day of my life. Your difficult journey of growth has given your viewers an example of how to grow too. To me, this is more of what the world needs. To me, it is as fine a work of art that can exist. And you are also a very wonderful musician as well! I do not believe that being a psychologically healthy human being excludes being a great societal influence. If it did, I would care less about the latter than the former. That is because, in my opinion, this world would benefit more in an evolutionary and existential way from greater mental health than any other advances available.
I definitely agree with what you're saying, I guess the main question that comes up for me then is wondering what causes some people to grow and take responsibility for their actions vs. what causes some to refuse to.
I'm not entirely sure but I think the surface level reason is that they are simply unable to face the things they've done because it would be too painful for them to accept. But then the question becomes why do they feel that way about it, and I don't really know lol
Thank you Daniel for exploring a truly, profoundly layered conundrum. I also, have wondered about many of the things that you have shared. What I tend to come back to is that these exceptional individuals have never really worked through the emotional facet of their trauma and indeed, intellectualize the pain. I do find that knowledge of their bad behavior has bummed me out and affected (effected?) my feelings about many unique musicians, artists, authors (who will remain un-named) whom I have really loved. It really frustrates me that these highly sensitive people seem to get it on one level, but that they refuse to get it on the deeper levels (or should I say the much more uncomfortable levels) and so they do the unconscious thing and project the pain "out there" and will not own it "in here" and indeed avoid the grueling work of transformation, remain willfully blind, and inflict their emotional retardation on the following generation.
Totally agree. The same happen to me when I noticed how people I admire were not that as good as I idolized. Jackie Chang who seems to be emotionally detached from his only one son, but then I read Changs biography and it was a traumatized upbringing. The same with Alice Miller. When I read Charles Bukowsky I felt I had breath oxigene for the first time in my life, how simple his approach of life is and his empathy toward ordinary people was like reading my own mind. Then I watched a video where he was drunk and violent with his lady and felt disapointed, but somehow related to his anger, it was an awkard feeling. Later I read his biography and I felt even more related with him and I could understand that my discomfort with his anger was actually a reflection of my own shadows, that i had also emotional abused most of my closed persons, including my children. Stop having idols and see people as they really are, including parents, helps me to stop replicating abuse and trauma one step at a time. Thats the power I have, over only my own behaviour when I accept my shadows, my anger, the monstee that I can also be.
I feel this way about my ex-guru - Maharaji, aka Prem Pal Singh Rawat - I don't like the things he did to various people, and this is a big reason I stopped supporting him. But did I not feel an incredible amount of love through him and his devotees? Life has tragedies. No one wants tragedies, but there are plenty. Grieving - yes, thank you, Daniel, for reminding me about this important psychological process. I care about Tchaikovsky and Alice Miller, too, and appreciate your words about them.
I don't see why you have to "care" about personalities what sexually abused small boys and a woman who abused her innocent child while preaching on the subject and making money and achieving fame from the very subject of on the impacts of child rearing. Do you think they DIDN'T KNOW they were doing demonic harm to innocent little humans?
You can analyze and try to understand, but "care"?
Some things are criminal.. let's make sure not to bunch everything together when deciding.
I recently discovered Woody Guthrie and Pete Seeger. I also read Guthrie's biography. His family fell apart when he was 5 or 6 years old after their house burnt down. It must have been very tough times. Watch the "Power of Song" about Pete Seeger. It's really uplifting. Seeger was a very inspiring musician.
Alice Miller's book "The Drama of being a child" has been such a blessing for me. I am now watching Mark Wolynn "It didn't start with you". And Family Constellations.
I understand but still trying to 'feel it'.
Margie Rogers
I come from where Pete Seeger is from. And the Gutries as well. I used to see his daughter Nora at some concerts and functions. I never really got into the folk music scene, or the far left activism. I think Pete was a nicer person, a family man.
STOP CELEBRITY WORSHIPPING... BE YOUR OWN HERO
And we can also learn, by our mistakes, not how not to behave or be manipulated into behaving by the mistreatment we receive.
Abuse is abuse and it puts me off the artist. I will choose someone else to listen to or watch, and minimise my audience and admiring comments on the abuser.
Heaps of people have abusive upbringings and don't all abuse. Famous people get away with it more easily because everyone is admiring them, so they get over entitled and no one calls them to account.
Age old question. To respect the art but not the artist, yet both of these two talk about the other in some way. Alice's work helped X number of people who we don't know, and her family deeds tortured couple of people we do know. It's impossible to analyze this quantitatively or qualitatively. The only thing we can do is try to use art of ill people for good, and observe their wounds as we try heal our, preventing further damage for ourselves and others.
Student of Rhythm Correct, we cannot have one without the other, which of course doesn't mean we should not try to focus on one thing. Every aspect or phenomenon has a plus and minus side.
Just in the last month (!!!) I realised that to Really Create, WE have to become our own work of art. A block that we must ourselves carve to reveal our True Form. Whatever we produce that comes from/is expressed as a result of our trauma cannot truly set anyone free, as beautiful or profound etc., as it may be. All the beauty we see, hear externally, is nothing to the beauty a truly revealed soul is, that shines through the 'vehicle" of the body.
Oct. 2021 Don't know if Daniel Mackler will ever see this, but one of the best examples of someone experiencing "the feelings of the child she was at the time it happened" is "Helen" who was described in Dr. Sarno's Healing Back Pain. I think it was his 1st book published. His understanding of what the mind is and how the body protects us or helps us avoid unpleasant feelings impressed me very much. This refers to what Daniel says near the end of the video about grieving and getting in touch with one's original experience.
Thank you for sharing this! Yes, I read your comment!
Good point very interesting. could creativity be filtered though a different channel that has little to do with the individual and more to do with that person having access to it or not. Human history is full of unresolved trauma. The only real thing we get from our parents is their unresolved trauma. Its just now more people are becoming a bit wiser and trying to solve it.
No. That's not the only real thing we get from our parents. We can also get the benefit of the example of their RESOLVED trauma, as we receive it. You did get some of that, yes?
@@truthismyfriend4196 No in my case no. I am the only child of 2 narcissitic parents. IMO dealing with your own trauma is a very recent idea. and very few have the courage to go on this path. I have never meet IRL anyone that even had the willpower to touch the subject of trauma. Denial was a major way of living life in my enviroment.
Dia P my parents also were narcissists- they have both since passed away. They have lived a very difficult life, they Li ed through the war. My Dad was a Russian foot soldier with severe PTSD. Yes as a result I’ve also lived a traumatic life...namely having my identical twin with severe autism forcefully taken away from the family home of six siblings.
The government took her way because we lived on a farm and she didn’t have a “special “ school to attend. At the age of ten authorities came to our home and told me my identical twin was going to receive an “education “. Instead she was dragged a long way away institutionalised and abused in every way.
It has taken me thirty years to fight for our rights against the beaurocratic bullshit to finally be reunited. At least now I have the opportunity to help her recover from all the abuse. My point here is that although I’ve suffered a tremendous amount, I didn’t go through the war as my parents did. I didn’t suffer poverty like my Dad. I find it helps me to have compassion for what they went through rather than holding on to anger. There are times when I’m feeling vulnerable that I hate my mum for being such a devout religious person but oh the hypocrisy...then I think of the good things about her and compare her to other people’s Mums who were sexually promiscuous and or negligent and have gratitude that at least my mum had a lot of good attributes and values that she past on.
My point is, sometimes we can’t stay stuck in bitterness because it only serves to make us miserable.
This is why, as Daniel says in another video, people need to consider long and hard before having a child and it isn't only the inherited trauma, Woody Guthrie died of, and passed on Huntingtons to several of his children who died young which is why people need to be screened for inheritable diseases as well before having children.
I think Guthrie had issues/trauma and one wonders how sincere he was about the movements he was involved in or whether or not he was a communal narcissist, as Bob Dylan is said to be.
It's great that you can separate the intellectual and artistic prowess of the people you admire from the personal side, even though they've done terrible things, I've come up with the same dilemma, but I find difficult to separate the person from the work, don't know why.
If you learnt or knew beforehand about these artists being horrible people first, then secondly hearing or learning about thier creative expression, productivity or output; would you then admire thier creativity or thier work ? For example, if you read Alice Millers sons biography before reading Alice Millers books.
Great video. I had the same problem when I heard how terrible Picasso treated those close to him.
Never meet your heroes.
People do bad things because they receive no consequences for the bad things they have done. Having bad things happen to you doesn't get you off the hook for being evil.
One of my favorite mottos. I’ve learned this lesson the hard way.
It's a blessing to exist in these times because we have easy access to healing modalities which help us in overcoming trauma. When we heal ourselves, we do not inflict the abuse we suffered onto others.
We recognize that what we went through wasn't our fault, wasn't fair or justified and that we have the right and power to move on from abusive people and situations.
The trauma I suffered ends with me. I am not going to perpetuate it because I suffered the same.
Man, great thoughts. I love the way your mind works. Kudos to you Daniel!
What happened to Hitler, Stalin, Causescu, Nero, Timur? The list can go on and on....
It could, indeed, but it's just a video not a thesis.
As always, love your candor.
Did I love my ex-Narc's wining and dining me and the initial golden period of 'love' he created? ABSOLUTELY! Do I love it now and wish to relive that enjoyable, artificial masterpiece of an act over and over again? NO! Narc used good for evil purposes. As for 'real' artists, once they turn me off, I'm done. And, lately, I find myself caring less and less about Art. I turn to creating my own, if anything.
I love Carl Jung’s work, but the film “Dangerous Methods” gave me pause. In the end, I have to separate Jung from his work.
Impossible.
@@frankstared I was just thinking about this issue the other day. Now, I agree with you.
@@suterfire I recommend the work of the inimitable humanist Erich Fromm as a way out of that darkness.
Look back on many people's history, and i'm sure you'd be shocked by some of it...
Sometimes I think the art is like its own thing, separate from, issued from but not of the artist. The wounded or wounding person can do great things in art or as a doctor or mentor or author and then be a monster in their private life. It is as if they are not fully conscious or aware of themselves in all aspects. And if they are aware, then, wow, that is just awful. It is the perp owning their crime (we wish) but, no, they don't admit it even to themselves much less to their victims or accusers. But the art is a totally unconscious thing apart.
3:33 Woah woah. Can you give a link to this? Cause I read all about Tchaikovsky and the worst thing I read about him was that he just had a relationship with his 20 year old student when he was in his 40s.
i got the info from the book "tchaikovsky: a biography" by anthony holden. just skimmed through it and found a reference, on page 80. there it said tchaikovsky had a 12 year old boy servant named Alexey, and the biographer wrote "there is no doubt that Alexey performed sexual services for Tchaikovsky." later in the paragraph it said that tchaikovsky lost sexual interest in him by the time the boy had become 18. there may be other references in the book that i couldn't find, but this one was clear.
Daniel Mackler
I'm skeptical. Like, what proof does this biographer have to support his claim? I've done a lot of research on Tchaikovsky and never found anything like this. I'm not one of those people who would defend an artist to the death when they've done something deplorable but it's really unsettling when loads of artist/celebrity gets accused of pedophilia/sexual assault when there's no proof. Especially because it's becoming a bit of a trend to label a long-dead artist as a gay or pedophile. And let's not forget that all artists have their haters where they'd do anything to smear their name. With Tchaikovsky especially, there's very good reason to think that that biographer is making it up because he thinks gay men are all pedophiles.
hi Ruth, i don't remember getting any sense of homophobia from the biographer, but you would have to judge that for yourself. from what i remember he liked tchaikovsky very much. also, the biographer cited another book about the pedophilia claim, so i guess you'd have to follow the trail to be more sure. if you do look it up i'd be curious to know what you think. all the best, daniel
I would call 20 year old, honestly a responsible adult and hardly a scandal. You are comparing a 20 year old woman of Tchaikovsky's time to a generation snowflake little girl of 20 years today.
You talk about such interesting topics! Thank you for sharing :)
Salute to the most honest man on the internet.
Precedent shows again and again that extraordinary art (or efforts) is born of extraordinary circumstances. Someone who is enjoying a wholesome life feels no need to do extraordinary things, they are feeling joyful already. They can do things, or not. It doesn't change how they feel.
💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯
I love what you do, Dan. Thanks.
I used to draw, paint, write poetry and stories in my times of despair and depression. People liked what I produced. Now I do Latuda.
Your work's extremely important, the documentaries, etc. Congratulations. From 🇵🇹.
Great topic, Dan. I always have to struggle with coming to terms with the dichotomy of persons I admire .. but as time goes by, I see more & more, perhaps the problem is with me. Why am I shocked in the first place? Because we tend to think in terms of black & white. We tend to see people as “ good”, or “bad”. So artists are revered ..respected.. adored.. I am learning how to appreciate arts & literature, in the moment, as a separate thing from the person.. because the person is not the creativity .. As for what people do in their private life, well it’s not my place to straighten that out. My responsibility is to be respectful to myself & others. Period. ~ People who become famous for being brilliant, well, that’s about the people who worship others...That’s how I see it. ~ As for bad behavior, at some point one has to wake up & be a human being. And let go of blaming others, even let go of blaming parents. ~ As to your final question, who knows ?
What i've come to understand is that some people really do not like children. Period. The babies are born perhaps because that is what is expected of (all) adults in society or the pregnancy was a mistake or they're forced to tolerate the child's presence ... i think we just have to accept not all adults have a soft spot for children.
More often than not those who exploit and take advantage of children would never try their shit on an 'equal'.
I've been watching your videos since several days/weeks and you amuse me "in so many ways".. :D Some videos I find very insightful and valuable, some are like "wow that guy is speaking my thoughts", and some are like "what a random bullshit!". I used to write similar stuff down and then I stopped, thinking it's all bullshit. Then I realised that stopping was a mistake.. You remind me of myself. The biggest message I personally got here is that it not always the content that matters. There's something between the lines, yes, the act of expressing oneself.. searching.. It's always such a discovery when one notices the value of "how" rather than "what". You're inspiring people, that's what matters :)
..and isn't being able to see a person as good and bad at the same time one of skills that a healthy child develops? The opposite of "splitting"?
If you can accept others are a mix of good and bad, have compassion for the things that led to their bad behaviors, and then allow them into your life (mind and heart) in various ways, why can't you do that for your own family? (Not a knock on you, but a genuine query. I am struggling with the same question.)
There"s a dark side to genius.
I think you’d enjoy the film “Tár”. It touches on this subject
Miles Davies as well.
Where does the stereotype of the 'angst-ridden' artist, the 'Bohemian' art culture come into play? Where does the 'sex, drugs, and rock and roll' ethos play a part? I sense that although many artists are troubled individuals, they seem to be part of an unhealthy artistic community/culture. I am a painter, and have moved completely out of the 'art scene' because it is so toxic.
I like the interesting story that we choose our lives before we come in to them, and we have agendas for the life that include learning more deeply about this or that experience, expanding our understanding of the meanings they have; and also providing opportunities for others to learn, such as for you to share your insights requires that you have these experiences, etc. Tchikowski helped you process these ideas and help others with your youtube channel. If we are all a connected whole as some other stories suggest, then the Tchikowski part of you sent messages of value to the Daniel part of you.
Also i know that for me i have seen clearly how very important tracks of my own learning completely depended on my having experienced a series of deeply traumatic happenings. And those played profound roles in some of my favorite creative manifestations. So, good? Bad? Who knows?
It is one thing to seperate the ARTIST from their art. Which I also personally not agree with, but I am more tolerant of it, if others do so. Still personally, whatever art I perceive, I always perceive the artist through their art - the person. So, knowing that someone has hurt others and has not taken responsibility for it will always be there in my perception of their art. But lets leave ARTISTS aside for a moment.
Alice Miller is a completely different case from artists (!) and to split her scientific work from the abusive mother she was is absolutely not ok, even potentially dangerous. At least you have to question her teachings whether they are skewed and have an underlying violent theme going on, that you haven't been able to percieve so far. You have to question if someone so SPLIT could have really produced value in their message? Where in her teachings do her short-comings show up? Same with political activists or basically any other person who teach/portray a message of compassion, peace, integrity, honesty, cooperation, healing and so forth, but do not hold up to their own message in their personal life. For you, or others to seperate the teaching from the person is so SPLIT. People are NOT seperate from their message.
Again with the artists it is a different story (maybe a gradual one, but one can clearly point out the difference). But even there! - please make the thought experiment of: Everything we know about Hitler is true, but then he was also the composer of amazing music of the likes of Bach (or take Tschaikowsky, which ever music moves you most). Would you still be going on about totally seperating this amazing wonderful soulshaking music from the hate, dehumanization and systematic destruction of Hitler? I don't believe you could do this. Not necessarily because of some hidden ugliness in the music you are overseeing, but because of the denial it would mean to focus on the beauty. Pedophilia from a guy who lived over a hundred years ago you might be able to tolerate and split off while hearing the music. But with Mr. Hitler (still with the thought experiment) I doubt you could do it - the music might still move you, but you would also feel pain. You - as the compassionate person I perceive you to be - would not be able to go this far.
We value any human that becomes famous or notorious. We don't care about their deeds or character. Would you qualify "horrible people" with "people who did horrible things" if they weren't famous?
Just listened to this after I wrote the comment on Alice Miller for one of your old videos.
That question at the end has me wondering if we would even like their music and it’s message had they been in a healthy, loving family environment. Would we identify with someone’s music or their love ballad if it hadn’t projected a lost parental need onto a partner or person they’re singing to/about? Is it because we are traumatized to that we feel such a connection to these artists? Then I wonder, would the more healthy alternative be like a “bitch slap” in the face? Would an artist that praises and expresses a healthier family life be rejected by people who don’t want to acknowledge how abused or toxic their environment was/is?
It's such an interesting dichotomy, holding oneself and others accountable without condemning. You kind of first have to overcome, grieve as you say, all the pain and anger before you can do it though, with yourself and others! I think grieving as you so often talk about is really opening yourself up to the pain that was caused you, to the damage and loss, which frees you to seeing things clearly, you're no longer trapped in a reactive pattern like blame and condemnation and a kind of pain-addled judgement. But how do we talk to those around us and to ourselves about what we are doing to one another? I'm so far from perfect, my actions and behaviours are harming the world around me all the time... god still so much pain to process. I suppose if it's this hard for me to do I can't reasonably condemn others for struggling with whatever pain they're trying to get over. I mean surely not, by definition - pain is by definition something that's incredibly difficult to integrate...
I draw a line when and can’t resonate with pieces of art when child abuse is something the artist did. ESPECIALLY when they were pedophiles and raped children (they cant have sex with them because sex is when both sides are adults and have given consent) i see art as an extension of a person and I can’t support their hypocrisy.
That's why I'm never listening to Tchaikovsky's music again
R.D Laing's another one. He was awful to his children :(
All Norwegians have to face this dilemma regarding Hamsun. The State has, on their behalf, made some choices: his art is taught in schools, but there is no street carrying his name. There is no statue. Personally, I still face this dilemma with artists a lot. But I realise that somewhat, I just need to enjoy the art and leave the person out of it. (While maybe also evaluating if paying for this art would bring in an extra dimension of sponsoring a wrong cause.)
It was interesting how Norwegians also solved "a problem" of Hamsun after WWII. The solution to save his life was to deem him insane - except he wasn't. He published two more books in mental asylum.
one of the subjects that I was really curious about and never made a research... Commenting before watching. I'm sure it's gonna be good. :)
the moral is stop reading artists biographies
I think you can appreciate parts of a person without agreeing with all of their behaviours and opinions. You probably don't like 100% of what your friend does and thinks. Maybe 95%. Maybe you like 60% of a parent who you love but who hurt you. And maybe you like 10% of a guy who wrote amazing music and did terrible things. People aren't black and white, so we shouldn't expect that our opinion of them is black or white. With that said, it's possible that a person's opinions or actions might be too bad for you to appreciate the rest of them. But I don't think that liking someone's music means you're "letting them off the hook". You're probably not letting your friend off the hook when they do something bad, but that doesn't mean you can't be friends with them. To me, art comes from such a deep place, and opinions and actions are surface things. And to me it gives me hope knowing that these people who have done horrible things are actually just humans underneath. It means the world doesn't HAVE to be bad, that we can actually make the world better by taking care of each other and by helping people heal and change.
Hurt people hurt people.
3:27 WHEN I SAW TCHAIKOVSKY I KNEW THAT'S WHAT YOU WERE GOING TO TALK ABOUT
You can judge a paucity of spiritual properties from a person's lamentable actions and you're forced to reevaluate the meaning of their works. Sometimes dark behavior indicates a dark past which lends depth to art. Sometimes the art is an outgrowth of a dark impulse, usually narcissism or simple intellectual hubris. The medium and content of the art are also important. Non-lyrical music doesn't have an inherent rhetorical thrust, barring commentary from the creator or some complex cultural context (Wagner springs to mind). So the distinction between Tchaikovsky and Guthrie is clear, insofar as there is a moral/rhetorical injunction in the lyrics of a Guthrie song, that song is more morally suspect than the purely abstract compositions of Tchaikovsky, assuming a more-or-less equal degree of suspicion of either as a consequence of our knowledge of their life-histories.
06:00
Will you plz make a video about impulses: What are they truly? What causes them? What triggers them? I need to hear your opinion.
Exodus 34:7 - "Keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation.” Looking at this Bible verse, I have realised that the so-caled sins refer to the unresolved trauma of our previous generations. People have completely misinterpreted it. Unresolved trauma is what we pass on to the next generations. That's what the children suffer from and inflict to their children. Amazing insight, Daniel! Keep up good work.
Hi my dear friend Daniel. You have recently discover the relationship between life and work. Welcome to the world of arts and madness.
All very valid points. We do not really know if any of the artists you mentioned held themselves accountable for their bad behavior and in so doing became more developed in their soul, healed perhaps in ways we are not aware. I did not know about the things you mentioned. Still, when a modern-day artist is accused of pedophilia or hemophilia, this is a very evil thing. If ever found to be true the first inclination is to ignore their music. It does not matter anymore. If anyone harms a child or teen without any remorse, do you really care about a beautiful piece of music or painting they did? It is like being served cake contaminated with bird droppings. Do you still want to eat that? No. Now, if the artist is remorseful, repentant and never repeats the offense, then it is easier to be curious about their artistic talents. We are all hellish misfits until we commit our lives to being instruments of God and Heaven.
This is essentially the thesis of my life. Mental/Emotional/Social/Relationship Health FIRST!!!!! Everything non-essential, second. We need to get away from the 'Suffering Artist who Puts on a Brave Face', we need to move away from righteousness. It starves our humanity.
@10:59 "If these artists had had a chance to work out their traumas, their art could have been so much more wonderful" --> Maybe artwork is the product of the artist's split-off, unprocessed traumas and unfulfilled wishes. If these artists had worked out their traumas, they might not have become artists at all. They might have become balanced, healthy and warm people. It would not be necessary for them to sell their inner beauty: they would own it within themselves and live their beauty.
I don't support the artist or writers who do evil things but their negative expery help them in their creativity.rilke said if i send away my demons the angels vanish..well adjusted people cant explore the depths of life. A poet i interview ed told 7:56
This is some great commentary
huh what a coincidence I was just taking a break from reading ''the true drama of the gifted child''
Again love you honesty.. that you brutally put reality out there even if its not sunshiny
Attachment theory was useful for understanding this to me
I can absolutely relate to these feelings in all aspects! There are a # of artists (mostly musical) that i have been following and PLAYING their MUSIC on PIANO for decades!! By chance at times i read or through other sources learn different things about them that really upset or sadden me.
It's extreamy difficult to seperate the negative from the revering after so many years of getting literally lost(in the VERY BEST POSSIBLE WAY) in their CREATIONS /ARTISTRY....... But as u mentioned and i say in my AlAnon meetings (proud 29 year member and LIFER) I've hurt people and done hurtful things myself i would immagine through my OWN HURT or BEING HURT through the years. It's a great insight, one to be taken through ALL ANGLES before giving/passing judgment!! I thank you PROFUSELY for your ponderings and insight. 🎼🎵🎶🎤💝
i know its late to post (8 months later) , but i wanted to comment on your last statement of the video. This may come out as stupid but what if they are (so) talented because of their bad childhood/past. I want to underline the (so). What if they focused so much on their talents because they wanted to 'replace' their bad relationship with family/past, with a good relationship between them and an object/proffession . Some of them maybe couldnt love A PERSON anymore (after abuse etc), but we all need to feel that we 'build' (SO) talented. If anyone has an opinion on this it will be very very welcomed , thank you :)
Once I know about the awful things an artist did I can no longer enjoy their creative fruit. There are A LOT of artists to choose from in every area of art that there is, I don't need to listen to a pedophile symphony or whatever. I am so tired of hearing about WHY people do terrible things as if that's some kind of excuse. Most people who survive terrible childhoods don't grow up to be abusive monsters with no self awareness. It's a different story if an abuser sees the error of their ways and tries to make amends, but I'm not going to give anyone a pass just because they happened to be talented. Talent is extremely overrated.
Woody Guthrie's childhood family fell apart when he was around 5 years old.
when can healing process be completed , I think it is kinda unfair to be the abused child's responsibilities to heal them selves while my parents to get away with their responsiblies to teach well their kids
Totally agree, most of my favorite artists were very much lunatics
We have art because humans are imperfect.
A poet interviewed told me that a poet he knew went for therapy and cpuldnt write a line snymor
This is an interesting topic as a person's background can really either tarnish or add upon their commercial success. Gary Glitter and Bill Cosby are other good examples of how their material is good but their characters tarnish them.
I think Dave Chappelle said that” hating Bill Cosby is like hating chocolate milk ( having a warm and cozy association growing up on Cosby’s shows)”
Privilege breeds violence, privileged people, like famous musicians, abuse their power
incredible artists VERY OFTEN come from abusive backgrounds
dodecachordal extispicium A lot of people come from abusive backgrounds - it's just the famous ones who get heard. And use it as an excuse to justify behaving badly.
... and how many abused children grow into adults with crushed potential - who knows what art they may have produced - i'm sure we can all think of someone who drank/drugged/worked/shopped/gambled away their lives, abandoning family members and their own undeveloped capacities in the process
Hi Daniel, I’m so sorry I posted my last comment. You were probably having a nice day and then hopefully didn’t have to read about a difficult situation. I’m basically a happy person and live a simple life. I don’t let it get in the way. I appreciate your insights and honesty.
Thank you, Debra Lynn
But who Needs that so much wonderful art if it is So high price for it!? Me- no.
I think we all are fans of various creative geniuses ..then the bomshell drops and you find out that they were horrible people or partners .. one of mine was James Brown ..
I greatly appreciate this. Maybe if artists heal trauma, they'll produce even more beautiful music and art
People are complex. I'm a musician and we are spasmodic individuals. Cool video. Thanks for making it. Have a treasured day. Peace.
Here's a big, cyber-hug for ya, bruh
Biographies are priceless, especially autobiographies.
I know admired respected professionals who are literally sadistic people in romantic relationships.
Albert Einstein abandoned his kids. His son was schizophrenic and died at age 48 in a mental institution. (That's the story I heard anyway.) I got rid of my Einstein poster.
All heroes have feet of clay.
Disagree on the last point. Great art comes from from great dysfunction. Think of the dullest, most non sociable, dead beat of a party scene if he ever went to one, the schizoid type then that might be the human without any flaws,
and who never harms anyone else. He would not be the least bit artistic. To be great you have to be flawed. A glacier doesn't flow without cracking and we are all glaciers moving through life.
Don't expect your role models to be perfect. This is a good lesson for children. It inoculates against hero worship, one essential feature necessary for a demagogue to succeed in seducing enough voters - credulity. Many people complain about Lance Armstrong being a "bad role model". I say no, it is right and good for children to be disillusioned by a drug cheating athlete, to see their heroes have feet of clay and not to necessarily trust in their betters. I wish for ALL children to be disappointed by their childhood heroes and to have their fantasies shattered into a thousand pieces. It may confer immunity to seductive squawkers who with their tongues seduce whole nations to their doom.
"Good role models for children" are good fertile soil for the Hitlers and Trumps of the future to take root.
The notion that a person who doesn't express himself socially is unartistic is false. This judgement of the superficial social 'seeming' of individuals is a major contributing factor to social anxiety. This is why people feel unrecognized in their skin - you, and the 'normal' people deem that the narrative you construct around their behavior reflects their inner reality. This notion is ignorant and psychologically violent. Generally it springs from spite: those who allow their behavior to be defined by social norms recognize superior integrity in the mind of the man who rejects these norms. To attest to the legitimacy of their choice to cave under social pressure and mirror their abuse by becoming themselves the bearers of unethical norms, they assault him with the essentialization and rejection they fear. They cast him as an inhuman creature without a worthy soul, because he exposes their weakness. Such is the nature of your characterization of the social outsider.
While it's true that people are imperfect, reading a theme into your comments, it appears that for you this constitutes a 'reason' to hold yourself to an excessively low standard. Painful as it may be to face partial social rejection when one adheres to one's own independent code of conduct, doing so is not arrogance; it is merely self-respect. Becoming inauthentic is the even greater price paid by those desperate to be accepted. While I always find it misguided to judge such 'decisions' right or wrong - they are deeply personal and contextual - the 'othering' of the unsocial person is a despicable sort of abuse which I cannot tolerate in any capacity. It should be obvious to anyone that when we abuse someone in this way we are acting ignobly. You have made reasonable points and don't appear to be a fool, which disappoints me all the more - what must be done to bring about peaceful attitudes towards those who struggle with social life and self-development?
Have you read any philosophy on this subject of self and social identity? Someone like Sartre is brilliant on this, and personally his work 'Being and Nothingness' speaks to me, but there also are many others with more accessible writing styles with much to teach us from the school of existentialism. Such an understanding is essential to be aware of the condition we find ourselves in today and to support others in this difficult social context.
I think you fly off the handle. I don't really know what you're trying to say.
"All heroes have feet of clay". Self evident since what we see is half constructed by ourselves and not in total agreement with the reality.
"Art comes from great dysfunction". Normal functioning means means that most of the deep down impulses are suppressed and from that comes great art. If you are quiet and very stable you would not have that reservoir of angels and demons to tap. Also with great genius. I disagree with Daniel's statement about dysfunction impeding even better creativity. Tesla and Newton were great because their near dysfunctions flowed through into maths, physics and technology. Both were virgins.
"Being disappointed with role models is good for you". It allows one to calibrate our perception of reality with reality, a good training ground for scepticism and essential for democracy. If more people had been disappointed with Ben Johnson and Lance Armstrong then perhaps fewer of us would have had cause to be disappointed with a Donald Trump presidency. Every teenager should be bitterly disappointed with a role model because hero worship of childhood is best left behind along with Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.
I feel it is a dangerous perspective to follow (and that society pushes us to follow) to question am I perfect? and compare ourselves with a perverted person.... well no I'm not perfect AND I'm not perverted either! society and perverted people tend to see error and perversion to be two similar things and it is not! humen error is not malicious, whereas what these artists did once adults, with their intellectual baggages they CHOSE to be perverted. many abused children CHOOSE not to hurt and even when they do they get humble and look for recovery..... there is a real need in society to evolve to differenciate human error from abuse and perversion.... they are two different things from different origines. Until we do that we will be stuck in a recycle cycle as humanity
Great video. Such an important topic for exploration, one available to everyone. 🙏🏼✨🙌🏼 everything is opportunity for our healing, awakening. And it’s a messy path in doing that.