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A tip for you. When you back drag leave some material in your bucket. Makes for a better job with some weight in the bucket. Been running heavy equipment for over 60 years.
interesting,, ill try that. i was a finish grader building golf courses around the country in the 80s and 90s but have never been especially good with my front end . Always box and gill work
Speaking as someone who works in a sand/gravel pit for a living, even the big CAT machines won't back-drag with a fully tilted bucket. The way you showed is what they do. Well explained!
I also have worked in a quarry for a good many years. And I believe the video was great for the novice. I have operated (notice I said "operated" not "run" equipment. It is definately in the "feel" between the operator and the machine. I could always feel when it was ok to backdrag at any angle needed. And they are ALL needed. Even the fully tilted bucket. I have never busted a cylinder in some 40 years of operating equipment. But still a great video! I love watching them
After 25 years as a backhoe company owner and over 20,000 hours behind me. I not only back drag with the cutting edge when using the rear digging bucket I place the front bucket edges in the ground for better anchorage. (Not flat) If a machine breaks because of this I would suggest finding a better quality backhoe.
Your exactly right Ed. I remember as a newbie to a tractor/loader I would curl my bucket down to back grade. An older guy who operated equipment for many years told me that was a good way to ruin my cylinders. Thankfully I heeded his advice without damaging anything.
Thank you for all your videos! The Kubota dealer told me how to go forward, backwards and where the lights are. Your videos are very informative and much needed for us new tractor owners.
I am surprised at how many people say their Dealers haven't helped them. Every Dealer I have bought from has been there to help if I needed it, especially Rural King. Great tip Mr. Ed. Take Care, God Bless, STAY SAFE
This solves all your back dragging problems, and also improves your bucket 1000%. Go out and buy yourself a caterpillar double-edged cutting-edge for your bucket that bolts on. Absolutely the only way to Back Drag. The rear cutting-edge does a great job when you put the bucket flat on the ground. You can actually drag gravel or anything else because it gives you a cutting-edge in reverse. Also it will leave your factory Edge untouched for the entire time you own your tractor. Another added benefit is it reinforces the front edge of your bucket. They're only like $170, $180. They're made out of carbon steel they'll never wear out. The one on my buckets been on there since 2006. And it gives you a great digging Cutting Edge.
So if you own a John Deere, you need to go buy a Cat cutting edge ??? And then what, drill a bunch of holes in your bucket to make the bolts line up ? How about just buy a cutting edge from the manufacturer of YOUR tractor
Thanks and it's so true. I worked with a landscaping company in Georgia for awhile and the Foreman was constantly watching all the new operators to make sure the cylinders were never fully extended except when dumping the bucket. I enjoy your videos because you try and share what you've learned but one thing I wish you would share is how important it is to always wear that seatbelt no matter how long you might be on your tractor. A tractor roll over claims about 130 lives each year and many of these have the ROPS but because they weren't wearing a seatbelt they fell out of the seat and were crushed when the tractor rolled on them. And 1 in 10 operators will have a tractor rollover in their lifetime. This doesn't sound very high unless you are the 1
Id rather not be pinned to the tractor. Around here if we are on the tractor. We're on a hill side. If its going over. I want to beable to jump off to the uphill side. Not stuck in place for the ride. 🤷♂️
I have owned and operated equipment equipment for over 60 years, and am hoping to make it 70 years. What I have found: In some cases the bending of rods in the cylinders is a design and wear problem. We back drag at 90 degrees with enough down pressure to lift the front end of the machine slightly off the ground. We had one loader that had about 35,000 hours on it when I sold it, we never broke a rod on it. The real and frequent danger to the machine is pushing forward with the bucket at 90 degrees or a bit less, that will rip the end of the cylinder apart, some of that was a design flaw, I would weld the cylinder back together properly and run it for many years. We would use our equipment enough to wear out a bucket in a few years, we would then rebuilt it with Hardox and go a few more years. We had a machine with a bucket like on the kubota, it didn't even last one season and it was coming apart. That was used in digging dirt, not rock.
Ok, I just asked another operator about this and you explain perfectly why I shouldn't do that. I asked why, in full dump and dragging back, does it flex. I fear now I may have a damage rear seal. I have no leaks at wiper seal so it has to be internal. I use bucket to drag top of pile backwards to prevent chasing the pile wrong way least I loose material where I don't want it. Guess I'll have to come up with a bucket jig to do that now. Thanks for explain. You have saved us from damaging our tractors.
Hi Ed! Yep, I’ve always heard never to back drag or push with the cylinders full extended. For the most part, I adhere to that rule, but like you I have found a few exceptions when spreading loose material like sand or mulch. However, you have to be certain there are no big rocks or stumps hidden below the material that could ruin your whole day. Thanks for sharing!
I wish I could say I never did that but until I watch videos like Yours it never knew I could fracture parts of the cylinders. I looked up pricing for replacing them and found out I don't want to pay over $1,000 for breaking two cylinders. Better off safe than sorry Thanks to Everyone that posts these videos Keep posting them Thanks
I have dug 1450' of ditches with a L3130 hydro! Also dug through hard pack gravel to install culverts. Approx 7000 hrs on this machine! A small amount of play at full extension after 10,000 hrs! Grease man...grease!
Good advice for the most part. Now I will back drag with the bucket rotated all the way down when trying to drag out a pile of loose dirt or rocks. Hard ground will get you in trouble. Two things can happen with the bucket rotated down. You will bend the rams if you put too much force. This is called a buckling failure because the ram is weak in compression when fully extended. The other thing that can happen is if you are moving forward and you catch on something, you can pull the ends of the rods off where they attach to the loader. Don't push with the bucket rotated down. I have seen the most failures with grapples that apply lots of force to loader arms and sometimes require bucket rams all the way out.
Thanks Ed. A great reminder, as we are waiting for snow to arrive this winter. Getting close to garage doors and building walls to clear the snow we can think twice before over extending the pistons. Great timing on this video... Dan
It all boils down to how much stress you are transferring to the cylinders. Snow for instance is completely different than dirt. Still I would have no worry about back dragging either one . Tying a chain around the bucket in this position and trying to pull out a stump is a whole different deal.
Hi Ed, what happens is like you said, you will bend the cylinders if you catch on something solid. Something will need to give and that will go to the weakest link. Very good tips Ed. Mitch from MJA Doing Stuff also gave a really important tip to consider when using a box blade in one of his last videos. The force of backing into something can cause the housing to tear apart. Glad that you guys bring this up. This can save tractor owners thousands of dollars and a whole lot of down time
I bent the lift arms pushing too much gravel with the box blade. Didn't even hit something solid. Just pushed up too large a pile trying to grade my driveway. Fortunately I was able to remove them, and jacking up under the arm "trying to lift" a 40 ft high cube straightened them out.
Negative there Ghost Rider. Weld a cutting edge on the heel of the bucket lay your bucket flat and drag with the heel. It will cut even if needed. We do this on all our front end loaders even. Saves wear on the bucket as well. However your video is correct on bending cylinders!
Absolutely! Tried to discuss back-dragging with my dealer, all he said was "no ground contact with the loader". Huh? Meanwhile, in the loader manual, there's a WARNING that says to call 811 before you DIG!
Wait, your dealer taught you stuff?!? Mine just sold me the tractor and delivered it. TH-cam, like this channel, taught me everything else. lol, I've been VERY thankful for TH-cam!!
I had a Fergusson tractor with a loader and the pump was so weak that there was little worry about damaging anything on it.... so I could back drag anyway it suited me... then I changed the bucket and pivot points for more power... and the change was dramatic I then back dragged with the bucket flat on the ground.... the idea of no operation at all with the cylinders at full extension is the best policy i think.
I like to back drag with my bucket mostly weighted down with material. With cylinders retracted and control in float position. Take care of your machine, and your machine will take care of you.
that was very well explained and the way you do it is the way I do it, at about a 45° angle or so, and sometimes I’ll even move the bucket in the fully retracted position and use the backside of the bucket to back drag a little bit, hope that makes sense.
Thanks for your take on this issue that many talk about. My opinion is in line w/ yours: it depends. Are you trying to move a big rock, level out Class 5 rip-rap? If yes, then you’d best keep your bucket curled a lot more than trying to smooth mulch or sand. No substitute for common sense & understanding your machine’s capabilities. You’d also best become familiar w/ your loader’s float function. Thanks for helping to bust this myth.
Great information! I talked about this recently in a video too. I left the loader at just under a 90% angle from the driveway surface, but used "float" mode.
Float mode may work if your surface your driving on is alreaty flat. How ever it dosnt cut and fill very well of the area isnt very flat your driving on.
Greetings from Wisconsin! Thank you for this, as I too stress this weakness on my channel when it comes to snow pushers. I customized mine and made my own backdrag for this very reason. The "flak" I receive for stating my reason about the cylinders being fully extended being weak just surprises me.
I would call this back grading. What we call back dragging is smoothing with the bucket moe-or-less flat, with our without a load in it for weight. That said, I and everyone that worked for me back GRADE with front loader tractor buckets for 50 years and never bent any cylinders. I'm talking tearing up hardpan for loading, pulling back concrete after busting it up with jackhammers, bucket tucked towards the tractor, front wheels off the ground, fully extended for maximum rip. Fords, International, Kubota, large boys, compacts. Never had a problem. Maybe we were just lucky?
Great tip Ed. I’ve seen it happen when a buddy of mine was back dragging try to scrape some ice and he snapped one of his curl cylinder. A lot of leverage when cylinder if fully extended. Hope your weekend is good. Talk to ya Monday night 👍✊
Good video Ed. And I fully agree. Leverage and mechanical advantage comes to mind. With the cylinders fully extended, and the bucket edge on the ground surface, any force applied to the bucket edge is greatly multiplied back thru leverage to the cylinders. 👍👍
Very good advice . 👍 using stump buckets and pallet forks the wrong way can destroy those cylinders also . The mechanical advantage multiplied over four or five feet is unreal .
You were spot on, I have seen many people even close to me jump on their tractor or bobcat and put the not only hydraulics but frame of unit and seemingly every bolt and nut under the most strain thinkable. All because they have a piece of equipment and very little mechanical knowledge. There are so many(not all)but many business owners with a pocket full of money or huge lines of credit and they go buy all this high dollar equipment and it gets abused not only by them, but the mindless cheapest help they can find or afford who could care less about the equipment, and it gets destroyed and then they bad mouth the brands that they destroy. Now a lot of equipment is engineered poorly or to minimum spec with maximum demand and that's another disaster. In closing on a tractor with a front end loader,.. The way that the shoulders or main mast is mounted typically down to the side of the engine block. This design has been around a long time but I personally feel that the leverage exerted from the bucket to the front end loader to the shoulders then twisting or trying to twist the sides of the engine block out. (add 4 wheel drive and diff lock and it triples) So many try and use tractors where a dozer should be used. Tractors are great, a front end loader is a great "Accessory".... I tend to use my tractor and front end loader gently. Or maybe another way to put it, I try to be smarter than what I'm working with. Ok, I'm stepping down off my soapbox now.
We had a 100 ft boom truck (with jib out) our company would let the most unqualified people operate. The abuse I witnessed was ridiculous. I was a nice piece of equipment. Man handling of boom floored me. Hell had to stop them from picking under power lines once. I used this myself and loved and respected it for what it would and what it wouldn’t do.
Same here. I only have a TLB so I have to back drag to grade. I'm not saying it's good for the tractor. I'm just saying that sometimes I need to take out a nice flat swath of dirt and pushing forward just doesn't work. Back dragging with a more level bucket is fine to grading loose material but won't work to remove compacted material. I love tractors :)
Good day Sir 😇👍 Great short bloopers 🧐👍 Great Demos with your hands and your tractor👌🧐 Logic dictate what you had showed to us very well Sir Cheers 🧐👌👍🍻
I think the quality and design of the loader makes a difference. My curl has steel reinforced stops on the bucket that take the load instead of the cylinders. Loader built heavy enough to lift the rear wheels of a 10,000 pound tractor. It has been used on the farm since 1977 with out issue except seals failing about 5 years ago but at that age it's expected. Tractor has been used for loading hay, building roads, knocking down trees , removing stumps/ concrete and snow.
My dads Kubota is 20 years old. Weve been back dragging since he got it. Never an issue with the cylinder. Though the low rear pins need replaced with a larger size after all those years of wear and tear.
To me, at a hydraulic engineer your cylinder is designed to be fully extended with a load. So dragging is not the problem. When you move forward with the cylinder fully extended their is no hydraulic cushon so the tension on the cylinder can't be controlled and this will rip out the gland, snap the piston off or a clevis or mount. If the cylinder is fully extended it is easier to bend if a load hits a cylinder perpendicular to the travel of the cylinder. Seals and cylinders will also get damaged if the relief valve flow is too small and you get intensification by overpowering a cylinder.
While it may not be a good idea, I've been backdragging with my JD 4500 for over 20 years with no issues. Maybe it's operator error or light weight Kubotas. No issues with my neighbors NH either. Hmmmmm.
My tractor (B26) has a “rest” position for the bucket. It’s activated by pushing the loader control stick full forward, past a detent. By doing this, it’s only the weight of the bucket on the ground versus cylinder pressure. The cylinders are relaxed and no impact pressure is transmitted. By laying the bucket flat, I find I can back drag almost any material with good results.
I always try to watch working with a cylinder fully extended weather its on a 50 ton track hoe which I do max those out alot, but definitely on your loader you should limit that and be cautious when you do. Fun fact, heavy equipment like a backhoe doesn't go over 90 to the ground like a loader does. Just my thoughts though.
The real issue with bending the rods and ultimately having cylinder leaks or breaking them entirely is a design flaw of this tractor and several others. If you look back at your video [1:10] you will note the gap between the cylinder and the bucket arm is very close to touching when the bucket is turned vertically downward. Now look at your video [2:02] you will see that the piston rod is almost touching the arm in this same extended position. Back dragging like this is really not so much a problem as when you try pushing something heavy, say a log or even jab the bucket into the ground. Everything flexes and these two pinch points come together pretty much at the same time and this can definitely bend the shaft and even pull the piston out of the cylinder. You can push with your bucket to some degree but be careful that you are not pushing something too heavy when your cylinders are in this compromised position. I like watching your videos and think you've done a great job!
If you are back dragging in float amd going easy I don’t see a big deal. Been running my 2301 since 2018 with no issues. Now I would not back drag fully extended under pressure.. We purchased my tractor because we build a house and I did all the grooming with this tractor and I have over 400 hours on it. I have a box blade, York rake, seeder, stump bucket, 3pt finish mower and a 3pt hitch ripper. I use all of them. Now that the house is done they don’t get as much use but I moves dozens and dozens of yards of top soil, sand, crushed and stay pack. We have almost 6 acres of land so it was very busy for the first 3 years.
I've back-dragged material with the bucket in all positions (depending on how much material you want to pull backwards as you do it) and NEVER had a problem. You NEVER want to go forward with your bucket pitched that much or you will absolutely bend a rod, but if you have a good tractor (not some cheap off-brand) and you take it easy while back-dragging, you should not have an issue.
The reason you can’t back drag with your bucket perpendicular to the ground is because of the geometry of the utility FEL. A construction FEL has. A geometry setup that minimizes the stresses created while backdragging.
How's she goin'? I have heard this many times about back dragging or working the bucket with the cylinders fully extended. For the reasons you mention it makes sense to limit the amount of hard work the bucket will do with the cylinders extended. But when I back drag it's normal that the bucket would be at a maximum of 45 degrees and often times even less like you demonstrated. Thanks for sharing this info and take care!!
With your style cylinder connections you could bend the rod back dragging our pushing with it curled out. On some tractors like my M6060 they have a dog bone connection between the loader arm and cylinder pin points. That eliminates the downward our upward movement of the cylinder rod. Check that out sometime on the bigger tractors.
Good video sir!! But I learned by just lookin at my bucket that fully extended probably would not be good on stuff back dragging. But I usually back drag like you did seems to work good. Thanks for sharing be safe have fun
The thing about these compact tractor loaders is that they are for light duty they will do a great job if you operate them accordingly and take your time if you push them you increase the chances of breaking something. You can't do what construction can do. My brother used to have a new Kubota 2350 tractor and loader. The loader frame would start to flex if you tried to take too much with it. It's a great little tractor you just had to be more careful with it
One tip is never dig or back drag in 4wheel drive. That way traction will break at the tires before the tractor breaks anything. Wheel slip can be a good thing.
And the same goes for backhoes. If the cylinders are extended, limit how much you flex on a stump or push backwards on a stump. If you don't you will just end up with broken stabilizers, bent cylinders, and cracked cylinder end caps. Not saying you can't do it, but if you do, eventually something is going to bend or break sooner than if you don't. These machines are made for digging, not bulldozing, or flexing on stumps, does not matter what color the tractor.
Good info, what are your thoughts on back dragging with the "heal" of the bucket, I do that as well, definitely less chance of cylinder issues, but just wondering about wear and tear. Thanks Ed.
I do that too, Ross. I agree there should be much less wear and tear doing that. It doesn't quite give me the best result, but its a good way to knock down the rough stuff. Thanks!
Another point is to keep your speed slow when doing something that is on the fringe of what you ought to be doing with the equipment. Same with using your box scraper in reverse. You can easily bend the stabilizers when pushing back. As with the hydraulic cylinder rods, they are much stronger when force is pulling on them rather than pushing. They usually fail when they hit something hard abruptly. Keep it slow when in doubt.
I think you are right, it is very easy to damage a FEL and/or the tractor it is attached to. We looked at a loader recently and the cylinders were bent
The issue is NOT the bushings and seals. The issue is you can very easily bend the ram. Generally you don't put a small bend in teh ram... it very suddenly bends 90 deg. Backdrag with the heel of the bucket. Curled up with the cutting edge appx 6 inches up to all the way curled. I've seen the destroyed cylinders from improper backdrag. (Other people's loaders at the dealership junk yard) You can also bend the loader frame by side loading it. Push or pull straight forward and reverse. Once you bend the loader frame, if you ever take it off the tractor (which will be very hard) it will never go back on.
Ed, the round hole/structural support in your front end loader arm can be used as a chain or strap storage,etc. I have a New Holland with a rectangular hole/structure and I ordered plastic plugs that snap in the openings. Ebay sellers offer different size plugs.
Same here. BX2200 I have about 200 hours worth of backdragging at full extension and still working fine. I do think the cylinders need seal replacements though and now I probably won't do that type of backdragging anymore. Thanks for the video
I don't think it's the piston being at the end that is at fault, but the geometry of the linkages. When the cylinder is fully extended, there is a very large mechanical advantage where the cylinder is subjected to 5 times the pressure mechanically, similar to how a stamping press can deform steel as the crank goes over top dead center.
I do it all the time, but not like that... Set the bucket flat on ground, then tilt it down till the bottoms is inline with your loader arms... Yes, I lift the front end off the ground, and let it roll speedwise... And my results are awesome, I can get more area covered with less material than most, and it'll hold up too. The big truck is too drag the bare diet till it's all hard as hell, then drop rock. Prep be work, same as ever... M
I didn't know about the cylinder would be weak at the full cylinder extension when back dragging. That is I guess why both of my cylinders are leaking now with only a little over 400 hours usage. I could feel the wiper with my finger protruding from the gland on one of the cylinders.
Good advice and explanation as to why. BTW, I'm subscribed and this is the first time that youtube has suggested one of your videos in several months. Have you been taking it easy or is yt failing me?
Hi Eddie, I see your SAWHAUL...I gave 2 as Christmas gifts and they were very impressed & appreciative. GO E-A-G-L-E-S!!! Oh and thank you for another informative youtube.
Just an IDEA Imagine adding a scraper blade attachment to the bottom and at the rear of the bucket Maybe a 4 inch angle iron where it would extend below the bottom of the bucket Attach it like the attachments the are added to the cutting edge of the bucket Cylinders are compressed and the attachment is at an angle close to the same as if the cylinders were fully extended
@@MyClutteredGarage It might but if it were attached and angled off the curved backside of the bucket Your concern might be minimized What angle do you think the profile of the bucket is when its at full curl and resting on the ground? Then if the flat of the bucket is resting on the ground maybe a scape type blade can be angled off the rear of the bucket and not touch the ground when the bucket is flat. Bucket flat and the blade installed so it is above the ground Curl the bucket so leading edge is angled up and then the blade makes contact for back scraping Just an idea for protecting the curl cylinders by having them fully retracted Thanks for Writing back
Actually back draggings real danger is about leverage and bending the cylinder. Damage happens typically on uneven ground when the force is greater on one side than the other and you are fully extended. While leverage can be beneficial it can also mean the entire length of the rod extended from the cylinder becomes a lever. I have a been driving tractors since I was 5. Did a crap ton of back-dragging and never damaged a cylinder. But I have seen people do it. Also the design of the loader makes a difference. Self-leveling loaders ( at least from deere are heavier than regular loaders for the same tractor. Those loaders hold up much better. Self-leveling loaders (at least from Deere are heavier and hold up well)
I’ve back dragged my driveway for decades. But my bucket it only tipped at about a 30 tp 45 degree angle. And I never put so much down pressure to lift front of tractor off the ground.
The physics when you BACK DRAG doesn't pull on the cylinder. It pushes the cylinder INWARD. I'm not saying it doesn't have some negative effects... but it doesn't 'pull' it further out. However if you had the bucket in full dump position you shouldn't use it as a bulldozer pushing forward because THAT will pull on the cylinder.
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A tip for you. When you back drag leave some material in your bucket. Makes for a better job with some weight in the bucket. Been running heavy equipment for over 60 years.
...and I thought I invented that technique😉
The bucket is upside down. How is that possible unless you're adding actual weights
interesting,, ill try that. i was a finish grader building golf courses around the country in the 80s and 90s but have never been especially good with my front end . Always box and gill work
Exactly what I was thinking, just made...common sense,..., which seems to be in short supply nowadays.
Also another tip. Chain that material up because how the hell are you supposed to leave material in a bucket thats in the dump position?
Speaking as someone who works in a sand/gravel pit for a living, even the big CAT machines won't back-drag with a fully tilted bucket. The way you showed is what they do. Well explained!
I also have worked in a quarry for a good many years. And I believe the video was great for the novice. I have operated (notice I said "operated" not "run" equipment. It is definately in the "feel" between the operator and the machine. I could always feel when it was ok to backdrag at any angle needed. And they are ALL needed. Even the fully tilted bucket. I have never busted a cylinder in some 40 years of operating equipment. But still a great video! I love watching them
After 25 years as a backhoe company owner and over 20,000 hours behind me. I not only back drag with the cutting edge when using the rear digging bucket I place the front bucket edges in the ground for better anchorage. (Not flat) If a machine breaks because of this I would suggest finding a better quality backhoe.
Your exactly right Ed. I remember as a newbie to a tractor/loader I would curl my bucket down to back grade. An older guy who operated equipment for many years told me that was a good way to ruin my cylinders. Thankfully I heeded his advice without damaging anything.
Thanks Dean! We should listen to our experienced elders for sure!
Thank you for all your videos! The Kubota dealer told me how to go forward, backwards and where the lights are. Your videos are very informative and much needed for us new tractor owners.
Thank you for your kind comments.
I am surprised at how many people say their Dealers haven't helped them. Every Dealer I have bought from has been there to help if I needed it, especially Rural King. Great tip Mr. Ed. Take Care, God Bless, STAY SAFE
Thank you, Bob!
This solves all your back dragging problems, and also improves your bucket 1000%. Go out and buy yourself a caterpillar double-edged cutting-edge for your bucket that bolts on. Absolutely the only way to Back Drag. The rear cutting-edge does a great job when you put the bucket flat on the ground. You can actually drag gravel or anything else because it gives you a cutting-edge in reverse. Also it will leave your factory Edge untouched for the entire time you own your tractor. Another added benefit is it reinforces the front edge of your bucket. They're only like $170, $180. They're made out of carbon steel they'll never wear out. The one on my buckets been on there since 2006. And it gives you a great digging Cutting Edge.
Just buy the Caterpillar machine and you won’t have to worry about hurting it back dragging.
Hi wher do ya get these blades from thanks for sharing
So if you own a John Deere, you need to go buy a Cat cutting edge ??? And then what, drill a bunch of holes in your bucket to make the bolts line up ? How about just buy a cutting edge from the manufacturer of YOUR tractor
Been doing it for 40 years, never had a problem. Just take it slow and easy, some times it is the only way to scrape something.
Thanks and it's so true. I worked with a landscaping company in Georgia for awhile and the Foreman was constantly watching all the new operators to make sure the cylinders were never fully extended except when dumping the bucket. I enjoy your videos because you try and share what you've learned but one thing I wish you would share is how important it is to always wear that seatbelt no matter how long you might be on your tractor. A tractor roll over claims about 130 lives each year and many of these have the ROPS but because they weren't wearing a seatbelt they fell out of the seat and were crushed when the tractor rolled on them. And 1 in 10 operators will have a tractor rollover in their lifetime. This doesn't sound very high unless you are the 1
I appreciate your input. I’ve shared those stats in a few videos in the past. Perhaps it’s worth mentioning again. Thank you! -Ed
Id rather not be pinned to the tractor.
Around here if we are on the tractor. We're on a hill side.
If its going over. I want to beable to jump off to the uphill side. Not stuck in place for the ride. 🤷♂️
I have owned and operated equipment equipment for over 60 years, and am hoping to make it 70 years. What I have found: In some cases the bending of rods in the cylinders is a design and wear problem. We back drag at 90 degrees with enough down pressure to lift the front end of the machine slightly off the ground. We had one loader that had about 35,000 hours on it when I sold it, we never broke a rod on it. The real and frequent danger to the machine is pushing forward with the bucket at 90 degrees or a bit less, that will rip the end of the cylinder apart, some of that was a design flaw, I would weld the cylinder back together properly and run it for many years. We would use our equipment enough to wear out a bucket in a few years, we would then rebuilt it with Hardox and go a few more years. We had a machine with a bucket like on the kubota, it didn't even last one season and it was coming apart. That was used in digging dirt, not rock.
Thanks for your thoughtful comments! -Ed
you're not wrong, Ed. And that's GREAT advice. But I know a guy that has backbladed at 90 degrees for years and never had an issue.
😉👍
I think I know that guy! 🤣
Ok, I just asked another operator about this and you explain perfectly why I shouldn't do that. I asked why, in full dump and dragging back, does it flex. I fear now I may have a damage rear seal. I have no leaks at wiper seal so it has to be internal. I use bucket to drag top of pile backwards to prevent chasing the pile wrong way least I loose material where I don't want it. Guess I'll have to come up with a bucket jig to do that now. Thanks for explain. You have saved us from damaging our tractors.
Hi Ed! Yep, I’ve always heard never to back drag or push with the cylinders full extended. For the most part, I adhere to that rule, but like you I have found a few exceptions when spreading loose material like sand or mulch. However, you have to be certain there are no big rocks or stumps hidden below the material that could ruin your whole day. Thanks for sharing!
Thanks Martin! There’s always an exception to the rules. Or at least I tell myself that 😄
I wish I could say I never did that but until I watch videos like Yours it never knew I could fracture parts of the cylinders.
I looked up pricing for replacing them and found out I don't want to pay over $1,000 for breaking two cylinders.
Better off safe than sorry
Thanks to Everyone that posts these videos
Keep posting them
Thanks
The pressure is the same fully extended or halfway
I have dug 1450' of ditches with a L3130 hydro! Also dug through hard pack gravel to install culverts. Approx 7000 hrs on this machine! A small amount of play at full extension after 10,000 hrs! Grease man...grease!
Good advice for the most part. Now I will back drag with the bucket rotated all the way down when trying to drag out a pile of loose dirt or rocks. Hard ground will get you in trouble. Two things can happen with the bucket rotated down. You will bend the rams if you put too much force. This is called a buckling failure because the ram is weak in compression when fully extended. The other thing that can happen is if you are moving forward and you catch on something, you can pull the ends of the rods off where they attach to the loader. Don't push with the bucket rotated down. I have seen the most failures with grapples that apply lots of force to loader arms and sometimes require bucket rams all the way out.
Thanks Ed. A great reminder, as we are waiting for snow to arrive this winter. Getting close to garage doors and building walls to clear the snow we can think twice before over extending the pistons. Great timing on this video... Dan
It all boils down to how much stress you are transferring to the cylinders. Snow for instance is completely different than dirt. Still I would have no worry about back dragging either one . Tying a chain around the bucket in this position and trying to pull out a stump is a whole different deal.
I never really thought about that Ed.. Thanks for another great video.
Great video. It’s little things like this that people sometimes don’t think about and ends up causing damage. Thanks for the video.
Thank you!
Hi Ed, what happens is like you said, you will bend the cylinders if you catch on something solid. Something will need to give and that will go to the weakest link.
Very good tips Ed. Mitch from MJA Doing Stuff also gave a really important tip to consider when using a box blade in one of his last videos. The force of backing into something can cause the housing to tear apart.
Glad that you guys bring this up. This can save tractor owners thousands of dollars and a whole lot of down time
Thanks very much, Gary! There are many first time tractor owners out there, so it's great when we can pass along good tips! Good to hear from you!
I bent the lift arms pushing too much gravel with the box blade. Didn't even hit something solid. Just pushed up too large a pile trying to grade my driveway.
Fortunately I was able to remove them, and jacking up under the arm "trying to lift" a 40 ft high cube straightened them out.
Negative there Ghost Rider. Weld a cutting edge on the heel of the bucket lay your bucket flat and drag with the heel. It will cut even if needed.
We do this on all our front end loaders even. Saves wear on the bucket as well. However your video is correct on bending cylinders!
I think i've learned more from you than my dealer
That's very kind. We all learn together! Thanks for watching. -Ed
Absolutely! Tried to discuss back-dragging with my dealer, all he said was "no ground contact with the loader". Huh? Meanwhile, in the loader manual, there's a WARNING that says to call 811 before you DIG!
Wait, your dealer taught you stuff?!? Mine just sold me the tractor and delivered it. TH-cam, like this channel, taught me everything else. lol, I've been VERY thankful for TH-cam!!
Good explanation. That is the way to keep from damaging cylinders and rods.
I had a Fergusson tractor with a loader and the pump was so weak that there was little worry about damaging anything on it.... so I could back drag anyway it suited me...
then I changed the bucket and pivot points for more power... and the change was dramatic
I then back dragged with the bucket flat on the ground.... the idea of no operation at all with the cylinders at full extension is the best policy i think.
I like to back drag with my bucket mostly weighted down with material.
With cylinders retracted and control in float position.
Take care of your machine, and your machine will take care of you.
that was very well explained and the way you do it is the way I do it, at about a 45° angle or so, and sometimes I’ll even move the bucket in the fully retracted position and use the backside of the bucket to back drag a little bit, hope that makes sense.
Thank you!
I will have to admit, I have done that. I do try to take care of my tractor so I won't be doing that anymore. Thanks for the advise.
Thanks for your take on this issue that many talk about. My opinion is in line w/ yours: it depends. Are you trying to move a big rock, level out Class 5 rip-rap? If yes, then you’d best keep your bucket curled a lot more than trying to smooth mulch or sand. No substitute for common sense & understanding your machine’s capabilities. You’d also best become familiar w/ your loader’s float function. Thanks for helping to bust this myth.
Thank you!
Great information! I talked about this recently in a video too. I left the loader at just under a 90% angle from the driveway surface, but used "float" mode.
Thanks Chad!
Float mode may work if your surface your driving on is alreaty flat. How ever it dosnt cut and fill very well of the area isnt very flat your driving on.
Thank you!!!!!! I have done the bad back drag a few times. Thankfully it went ok. Never again though.
Excellent explanation. I highly agree. I think most owners would be wise to follow your advice.
Greetings from Wisconsin! Thank you for this, as I too stress this weakness on my channel when it comes to snow pushers. I customized mine and made my own backdrag for this very reason. The "flak" I receive for stating my reason about the cylinders being fully extended being weak just surprises me.
Greetings! Thanks much!
I would call this back grading. What we call back dragging is smoothing with the bucket moe-or-less flat, with our without a load in it for weight. That said, I and everyone that worked for me back GRADE with front loader tractor buckets for 50 years and never bent any cylinders. I'm talking tearing up hardpan for loading, pulling back concrete after busting it up with jackhammers, bucket tucked towards the tractor, front wheels off the ground, fully extended for maximum rip. Fords, International, Kubota, large boys, compacts. Never had a problem. Maybe we were just lucky?
This makes sense to me, but I had never considered it. Thanks for raising the topic!
Thank you!
Great tip Ed. I’ve seen it happen when a buddy of mine was back dragging try to scrape some ice and he snapped one of his curl cylinder. A lot of leverage when cylinder if fully extended. Hope your weekend is good. Talk to ya Monday night 👍✊
Oh wow Bob. I haven't seen it first hand. Thanks for sharing.
Good video Ed. And I fully agree. Leverage and mechanical advantage comes to mind. With the cylinders fully extended, and the bucket edge on the ground surface, any force applied to the bucket edge is greatly multiplied back thru leverage to the cylinders. 👍👍
Depending on how much down force is applied . How heavy the front of the tractor is, and the size of the cylinders.
Very good advice . 👍 using stump buckets and pallet forks the wrong way can destroy those cylinders also . The mechanical advantage multiplied over four or five feet is unreal .
Thanks Stephen 👍
Great advice Ed. We’ve all pushed that extension limit but, ya never feel comfortable doing it!!
Good info! I'm really glad you're here.
I appreciate that!
Thank you so much. About to buy my first tractor and this is a great tip!
Great tips Ed, and I firmly agree with your back-dragging technique. Good stuff as always. 👍😎
Thank you, Chris!
You were spot on, I have seen many people even close to me jump on their tractor or bobcat and put the not only hydraulics but frame of unit and seemingly every bolt and nut under the most strain thinkable.
All because they have a piece of equipment and very little mechanical knowledge.
There are so many(not all)but many business owners with a pocket full of money or huge lines of credit and they go buy all this high dollar equipment and it gets abused not only by them, but the mindless cheapest help they can find or afford who could care less about the equipment, and it gets destroyed and then they bad mouth the brands that they destroy.
Now a lot of equipment is engineered poorly or to minimum spec with maximum demand and that's another disaster.
In closing on a tractor with a front end loader,..
The way that the shoulders or main mast is mounted typically down to the side of the engine block.
This design has been around a long time but I personally feel that the leverage exerted from the bucket to the front end loader to the shoulders then twisting or trying to twist the sides of the engine block out. (add 4 wheel drive and diff lock and it triples)
So many try and use tractors where a dozer should be used.
Tractors are great, a front end loader is a great "Accessory"....
I tend to use my tractor and front end loader gently.
Or maybe another way to put it, I try to be smarter than what I'm working with.
Ok, I'm stepping down off my soapbox now.
I think you are right, that a lot of equipment is “engineered to minimum spec”. Thank you for your comments. -Ed
We had a 100 ft boom truck (with jib out) our company would let the most unqualified people operate. The abuse I witnessed was ridiculous. I was a nice piece of equipment. Man handling of boom floored me. Hell had to stop them from picking under power lines once. I used this myself and loved and respected it for what it would and what it wouldn’t do.
I backdrag all the time and never hurt a thing...
Me too, the tractor is for doing work. It's not a princess.
Me too! Only had my tractor for a month so...
I've had mine for 12 years or so.... and same here.
Same here. I only have a TLB so I have to back drag to grade. I'm not saying it's good for the tractor. I'm just saying that sometimes I need to take out a nice flat swath of dirt and pushing forward just doesn't work. Back dragging with a more level bucket is fine to grading loose material but won't work to remove compacted material. I love tractors :)
Only thing I brake is the cast pats on the ends of the end of the rams on the 805 loader.
Good day Sir 😇👍 Great short bloopers 🧐👍 Great Demos with your hands and your tractor👌🧐 Logic dictate what you had showed to us very well Sir Cheers 🧐👌👍🍻
Thank you, David!
I think the quality and design of the loader makes a difference. My curl has steel reinforced stops on the bucket that take the load instead of the cylinders. Loader built heavy enough to lift the rear wheels of a 10,000 pound tractor. It has been used on the farm since 1977 with out issue except seals failing about 5 years ago but at that age it's expected. Tractor has been used for loading hay, building roads, knocking down trees , removing stumps/ concrete and snow.
My dads Kubota is 20 years old. Weve been back dragging since he got it. Never an issue with the cylinder.
Though the low rear pins need replaced with a larger size after all those years of wear and tear.
To me, at a hydraulic engineer your cylinder is designed to be fully extended with a load. So dragging is not the problem. When you move forward with the cylinder fully extended their is no hydraulic cushon so the tension on the cylinder can't be controlled and this will rip out the gland, snap the piston off or a clevis or mount. If the cylinder is fully extended it is easier to bend if a load hits a cylinder perpendicular to the travel of the cylinder. Seals and cylinders will also get damaged if the relief valve flow is too small and you get intensification by overpowering a cylinder.
Great points!
Very helpful video Ed. It sounds like just common sense, but we often overlook the simplest things. Thanks for sharing.
Indeed we do! Thank you.
While it may not be a good idea, I've been backdragging with my JD 4500 for over 20 years with no issues. Maybe it's operator error or light weight Kubotas. No issues with my neighbors NH either. Hmmmmm.
Thanks very much for the info about back dragging, I will definitely change my way, Thanks Again!
My tractor (B26) has a “rest” position for the bucket. It’s activated by pushing the loader control stick full forward, past a detent. By doing this, it’s only the weight of the bucket on the ground versus cylinder pressure. The cylinders are relaxed and no impact pressure is transmitted. By laying the bucket flat, I find I can back drag almost any material with good results.
Right! That's the float position. Very handy!
I always try to watch working with a cylinder fully extended weather its on a 50 ton track hoe which I do max those out alot, but definitely on your loader you should limit that and be cautious when you do.
Fun fact, heavy equipment like a backhoe doesn't go over 90 to the ground like a loader does. Just my thoughts though.
The real issue with bending the rods and ultimately having cylinder leaks or breaking them entirely is a design flaw of this tractor and several others. If you look back at your video [1:10] you will note the gap between the cylinder and the bucket arm is very close to touching when the bucket is turned vertically downward. Now look at your video [2:02] you will see that the piston rod is almost touching the arm in this same extended position. Back dragging like this is really not so much a problem as when you try pushing something heavy, say a log or even jab the bucket into the ground. Everything flexes and these two pinch points come together pretty much at the same time and this can definitely bend the shaft and even pull the piston out of the cylinder. You can push with your bucket to some degree but be careful that you are not pushing something too heavy when your cylinders are in this compromised position.
I like watching your videos and think you've done a great job!
If you are back dragging in float amd going easy I don’t see a big deal. Been running my 2301 since 2018 with no issues. Now I would not back drag fully extended under pressure.. We purchased my tractor because we build a house and I did all the grooming with this tractor and I have over 400 hours on it. I have a box blade, York rake, seeder, stump bucket, 3pt finish mower and a 3pt hitch ripper. I use all of them. Now that the house is done they don’t get as much use but I moves dozens and dozens of yards of top soil, sand, crushed and stay pack. We have almost 6 acres of land so it was very busy for the first 3 years.
I've back-dragged material with the bucket in all positions (depending on how much material you want to pull backwards as you do it) and NEVER had a problem. You NEVER want to go forward with your bucket pitched that much or you will absolutely bend a rod, but if you have a good tractor (not some cheap off-brand) and you take it easy while back-dragging, you should not have an issue.
The reason you can’t back drag with your bucket perpendicular to the ground is because of the geometry of the utility FEL. A construction FEL has. A geometry setup that minimizes the stresses created while backdragging.
How's she goin'? I have heard this many times about back dragging or working the bucket with the cylinders fully extended. For the reasons you mention it makes sense to limit the amount of hard work the bucket will do with the cylinders extended. But when I back drag it's normal that the bucket would be at a maximum of 45 degrees and often times even less like you demonstrated. Thanks for sharing this info and take care!!
Thanks Mike! Hope your winter is going well!
This guy is very correct.
With your style cylinder connections you could bend the rod back dragging our pushing with it curled out. On some tractors like my M6060 they have a dog bone connection between the loader arm and cylinder pin points. That eliminates the downward our upward movement of the cylinder rod. Check that out sometime on the bigger tractors.
Hey Ben. Will do! I think they engineer these smaller tractors to perform adequately, with not much tolerance to do more. But they do a lot!
Good video sir!! But I learned by just lookin at my bucket that fully extended probably would not be good on stuff back dragging. But I usually back drag like you did seems to work good. Thanks for sharing be safe have fun
Thank you!
Excellent video. I learned what not to do with my Kubota. Many thanks.
Glad to help!
The thing about these compact tractor loaders is that they are for light duty they will do a great job if you operate them accordingly and take your time if you push them you increase the chances of breaking something. You can't do what construction can do. My brother used to have a new Kubota 2350 tractor and loader. The loader frame would start to flex if you tried to take too much with it. It's a great little tractor you just had to be more careful with it
I think you hit the nail on the head!
One tip is never dig or back drag in 4wheel drive. That way traction will break at the tires before the tractor breaks anything. Wheel slip can be a good thing.
Lol what? That's a horrible tip
And the same goes for backhoes. If the cylinders are extended, limit how much you flex on a stump or push backwards on a stump. If you don't you will just end up with broken stabilizers, bent cylinders, and cracked cylinder end caps. Not saying you can't do it, but if you do, eventually something is going to bend or break sooner than if you don't. These machines are made for digging, not bulldozing, or flexing on stumps, does not matter what color the tractor.
Good points!
😊😊sensible operation is safe operation, same as driving any heavy tucks and machinery.
NEVER ON THE LIMIT.😊😊
Never really thought about any of these things! Great vid.
Thank you!
Good info, what are your thoughts on back dragging with the "heal" of the bucket, I do that as well, definitely less chance of cylinder issues, but just wondering about wear and tear. Thanks Ed.
I do that too, Ross. I agree there should be much less wear and tear doing that. It doesn't quite give me the best result, but its a good way to knock down the rough stuff. Thanks!
Another point is to keep your speed slow when doing something that is on the fringe of what you ought to be doing with the equipment. Same with using your box scraper in reverse. You can easily bend the stabilizers when pushing back. As with the hydraulic cylinder rods, they are much stronger when force is pulling on them rather than pushing. They usually fail when they hit something hard abruptly. Keep it slow when in doubt.
Thanks David!
💥 Good information Ed!
*Keep on tractoring!*
Thanks Jon!
That makes a lot of sense glad to see your video
I think you are right, it is very easy to damage a FEL and/or the tractor it is attached to. We looked at a loader recently and the cylinders were bent
Wow, GTB. Good to look closely!
The issue is NOT the bushings and seals.
The issue is you can very easily bend the ram.
Generally you don't put a small bend in teh ram... it very suddenly bends 90 deg.
Backdrag with the heel of the bucket. Curled up with the cutting edge appx 6 inches up to all the way curled.
I've seen the destroyed cylinders from improper backdrag. (Other people's loaders at the dealership junk yard)
You can also bend the loader frame by side loading it. Push or pull straight forward and reverse. Once you bend the loader frame, if you ever take it off the tractor (which will be very hard) it will never go back on.
I learned that the hard way. th-cam.com/video/BfGW4_WcZ-o/w-d-xo.html
As a hydraulic tech I can tell you I fix a lot of these bent rods on these loaders
Thanks for your input! -Ed
I've never backdragedlike that! Fully extended
Ed, the round hole/structural support in your front end loader arm can be used as a chain or strap storage,etc. I have a New Holland with a rectangular hole/structure and I ordered plastic plugs that snap in the openings. Ebay sellers offer different size plugs.
Thanks Otis!
Great video thanks for making it and passing along the knowledge makes perfect sense.
Glad it was helpful! Thanks for watching!
I’ve beat the heck out of my BX2350 and it has held up well so far 😂.
I do plan in taking it easier on it from now on though.
Same here. BX2200 I have about 200 hours worth of backdragging at full extension and still working fine. I do think the cylinders need seal replacements though and now I probably won't do that type of backdragging anymore. Thanks for the video
I will do like you said. Good idea. Thanks for the video.
Thanks for watching!
I don't think it's the piston being at the end that is at fault, but the geometry of the linkages. When the cylinder is fully extended, there is a very large mechanical advantage where the cylinder is subjected to 5 times the pressure mechanically, similar to how a stamping press can deform steel as the crank goes over top dead center.
Thanks Ed! Some very helpful advice. Cheers!
Thanks, Gord!
Ty great explanation bottom line is why take the chance
I do it all the time, but not like that... Set the bucket flat on ground, then tilt it down till the bottoms is inline with your loader arms... Yes, I lift the front end off the ground, and let it roll speedwise... And my results are awesome, I can get more area covered with less material than most, and it'll hold up too. The big truck is too drag the bare diet till it's all hard as hell, then drop rock. Prep be work, same as ever... M
Good video Ed but I think that falls under common sense with the bucket fully extended for most tractor owners but for the others a great video.
Thanks William. I agree, but lots of first time owners out there. 👍
Good tip….I learned this the hard way…$750 later for one JD cylinder on a 541 loader.
Bummer!
Great information, Ed. I do, however, believe some materials might be ok. Sand, mulch that’s thick and free of stones etc. YMMV
I agree. Thanks!
That is right, Bruce Perry, Taught me long time ago,
I didn't know about the cylinder would be weak at the full cylinder extension when back dragging. That is I guess why both of my cylinders are leaking now with only a little over 400 hours usage. I could feel the wiper with my finger protruding from the gland on one of the cylinders.
Thank you for the tip, sir
A good practice either pushing or pulling with the bucket. They are not an excavator or a commercial backhoe.
Thanks Dave!
I have the same tractor setup as a lawnmower. Didn't know I could add a loader.
This what exactly I had done and the tilt cylinder gland was destroyed, Im 3 weeks in waiting for ebay replacement, thanks
Good advice and explanation as to why. BTW, I'm subscribed and this is the first time that youtube has suggested one of your videos in several months. Have you been taking it easy or is yt failing me?
Thanks Terry. I think YT is failing you. But thanks for watching! 😄
Been back dragging with my tractor over 30year old kubota with a after market loader
Thank you Ed. Great job by keeping it simple and logical!
Thank you!
Hi Eddie, I see your SAWHAUL...I gave 2 as Christmas gifts and they were very impressed & appreciative. GO E-A-G-L-E-S!!! Oh and thank you for another informative youtube.
Thanks Margaret! You're a great gift giver!
@@MyClutteredGarage Thank you AND next I will be giving the GOLOOs (is that the rechargers name?)
Just an IDEA
Imagine adding a scraper blade attachment to the bottom and at the rear of the bucket
Maybe a 4 inch angle iron where it would extend below the bottom of the bucket
Attach it like the attachments the are added to the cutting edge of the bucket
Cylinders are compressed and the attachment is at an angle close to the same as if the cylinders were fully extended
Thanks for sharing. My only thought is that that me affect using the bucket when scraping forward are picking up debris.
@@MyClutteredGarage
It might but if it were attached and angled off the curved backside of the bucket Your concern might be minimized
What angle do you think the profile of the bucket is when its at full curl and resting on the ground?
Then if the flat of the bucket is resting on the ground maybe a scape type blade can be angled off the rear of the bucket and not touch the ground when the bucket is flat.
Bucket flat and the blade installed so it is above the ground
Curl the bucket so leading edge is angled up and then the blade makes contact for back scraping
Just an idea for protecting the curl cylinders by having them fully retracted
Thanks for Writing back
I usually back drag while floating the bucket as well.
Actually back draggings real danger is about leverage and bending the cylinder. Damage happens typically on uneven ground when the force is greater on one side than the other and you are fully extended. While leverage can be beneficial it can also mean the entire length of the rod extended from the cylinder becomes a lever. I have a been driving tractors since I was 5. Did a crap ton of back-dragging and never damaged a cylinder. But I have seen people do it. Also the design of the loader makes a difference. Self-leveling loaders ( at least from deere are heavier than regular loaders for the same tractor. Those loaders hold up much better. Self-leveling loaders (at least from Deere are heavier and hold up well)
Great points, Nick!
I’ve back dragged my driveway for decades. But my bucket it only tipped at about a 30 tp 45 degree angle. And I never put so much down pressure to lift front of tractor off the ground.
The physics when you BACK DRAG doesn't pull on the cylinder. It pushes the cylinder INWARD. I'm not saying it doesn't have some negative effects... but it doesn't 'pull' it further out. However if you had the bucket in full dump position you shouldn't use it as a bulldozer pushing forward because THAT will pull on the cylinder.
The only time I do it is when I am dragging loose rock or dirt in a pile. I use the box blade to scrape.