I dont understand shit, but i just love these japanese race track videos especially when compare different cars. It seems like they really enjoy driving their hondas just like i enjoy mine. Still, subtitles would be sweet
I understand enough japanese to halfway understand it's funny how the racers were shocked themselves to see the S2000 lose to the new Civic. The Civic is said to be almost as equally fast as the late 90's 280HP japanese sports cars and that says a lot
its amazing how quickly everyone forgets about driving technique when two different drive trains are put against each other. it doesnt matter how much power you put into you car if your a better driver you will win, power only matters if you and your opponent's skills are the same.
The civic would pass in the UK That type R is stock, from factory just the way it is in the video, just because it's been built to a higher standard by Honda doesn't mean it's not "stock"
civic Si has nothing to do with the FD2,different purposes behind them for different customers. S2K is really really great sports car while the FD2 is a track focus car.
The laptimes don't care if you dive a FF or RWD. If you want to be fast, choose your weapon. Trying to argue which is better is pointless. The beauty is that all these mediums exist and that's how a culture exists! :)
@c312eal First of all, K20A is an FF engine. And second, since Honda has excelled at FFs more than any other car manufacturer, makes it the best Honda engine ever made...
I wonder why Honda never made a S2000 Type R... that would've been sweet! I mean the Type S/CR isn't really made in the same way as a Type R car. I think that the result of something like that would've been interesting to see
To all FWD haters:don't blame yourself.FF takes skill to be driven fast.It is not your fault that you can't drive...but no need to blame the car as well.
@apexdna You can see the FF disadvantage too once its tuned. FF over 300hp is really not good on track while the FR s2k is still amazing. With over 300hp for a FF on acceleration you're just going to get tire spin because a the weight of the car goes to the back and the front becomes super light. The stress on the front tires will be overwhelming, braking turning and accelerating with the front tires. That's gonna kill your tires faster than a FR.
@apexdna Funny thing is the NSX was made and designed inspired by F1. It was to celebrate their success of F1 having direct input from the F1 legend Senna. NSX embodies Honda's F1 effort. These technologies were implemented into the NSX before it was trickled down to the FFs of Honda.
@hurtingguy15 i aggree with you. Besides for differences between FWD and RWD to be seen the track should have more tight turns or the cars should be more powerful
@c312eal NSXs actually DO have more cargo space than most super cars, thanks to the usable rear trunk, in addition to the more common front compartment for the spare.
@apexdna The Type R FD2 chassis is different from the USDM Si civic. Different chassis code, different chassis improvements in the FD2, its more rigid, lighter and has a more aggressive suspension set up than even the SI's. FRs have more potential the FFs. Just look at the LFA. You don't see companies making 500hp super car FF because it would be unpractical and unusable
@c312eal In Canada, they actually did sell an EM1 SiRs, which were basically re-badged Si's w/OBD-2 B16As, while EX were sold as Si...but only in Canada. del Sol VTEC (SiR in Japan) did had a B16A, but not EH3s (USDM Civic Si) as they came with D16Z6s...isn't that the reason you swapped a B16A into your EH-chassis Civic hatchback in the first place?
@apexdna I have a b16a in my civic. I'm not saying that but titanium rods and fiber coated bores were unheard of when the NSX came out. The C30A is a racing engine too. It was used for racing by Honda.
@c312eal They had too, because it's main target was the Ferrari 328/348 and the Formula 1 cars that were/are MRs. Honda has excelled at FFs more than anyone else did (overall), so therefore the best FFs are Honda and vice versa (again, overall). What's so hard to understand? Nobody's arguing what's a better (overall) drivetrain layout is...
I think the Mugen RR you're referring to is the advanced concept model. The Mugen RR featured in this race weighs a bit less than 2800 and has 240 ps. Regardless, it was a slaughter, the s2000 had the 2.2 liter engine.
@apexdna Why do you say that? the S2K chassis is amazing, its rigid and light despite being a convertible. Usually convertibles are known to been less rigid but thanks to s2k's x frame its strong. It's light too, the S2k has been known to have cornering abilities to beat the NSX in a few corners. The civic or integras were never compared to the NSX. If anything s2k chassis > civics or integras. Just by that fact its FR it has more potential and even stock more ability than a FF.
@timmyXx101xX Apples to oranges, my friend. An S2000 was created to celebrate the Honda's 50th anniversary, and as a tribute to the first Honda automobile, the S500. But you're right, both drivetrain layouts have their own advantages and disadvantages, whether it's power or handling. Type Rs came from SiRs which came from Si's. The F1-derived VTEC first appeared in 1989 on a Civic-based chassis.
a lot of people don't understand that best motoring is also there to advertise and promote cars. In this case they're promoting the new type r that came out during this video. They had other videos afterwards showing the s2000 beating the fd2r.
Oh don't get me wrong, i love RWD myself, but Ive learned not 2 under estimate a mildly tunned FWD car, like that new nissan maxima, that thing is a FWD beast! its out runnin BMW's & we all know the BMW's are RWD, but I like em both. I guess what im tryna say is that, with all the engineering and technology that goes into these cars now-a-days, i would have to say the playing field is pretty even no matter the drive-train, It's up 2 the driver 2 deliver as seen in this video when the FF car won.
@c312eal Yet "top 3" technologies borrowed from F1, the (1) double-wishbone suspension and (2) PGM-FI was found as early as 1985 in Accords, with (3) VTEC in the 1989 Civic SiR, a whole year before the release of NSX in 1990...
@iknowcarsbetterthanu Very true. FFs also have less power loss thru drivetrain. And by rally, I mean Group A, and later, the WRC - the pinnacle of automotive racing. Even Formula 1 can be traced back to the rally racing, which lent a lot of it's technologies to Honda road cars (namely FFs) in the late '80s/early-'90s...the VTEC, the double-wishbone suspension, and programmed fuel injection all came from Honda's efforts in Formula 1 during those years as an engine supplier.
@c312eal That IS exactly what I've said. What I'm talking about is the double-wishbone equipped Civic-based chassis of the '90s. The Integra, and the Civic on which it is based on, and a few other models like the CR-X and del Sol. A lot of mechanical parts are interchangeable, from engine to suspension. DC2 is based on the EG6 and DC5 on EP3, they aren't all that different. Know your roots.
@apexdna FR isn't always for drifting. Yes the silvias are drift machines because ppl choose them to be. The LFA is a FR but its made for some SERIOUS speed. Hell load of downforce and power. Laps the ring faster than the GT-R. If you think I'm a FR drifting fanboy, you got me wrong. I like engines behind my seat :P Porsches, Ferraris, Lambos. MR and RRs.
Btw, Stock s2000 final drive gear ratio is matched for european's freeways thus hurting its accel when compared to the shorter and more agrassive CTR. ;)
@c312eal Rally IS the pinnacle of automotive racing. Not only is it the oldest form of motorsport dating back to the late 1800s, but also the most demanding. It gave gave birth to Formula 1 in 1950s, and has seen a fair share of winning FF machines since then. And NO, not in Formula 1, before this stems into yet another misunderstanding.
@apexdna 1st thing, FRs are not just for drifting. This year in Le Mans the champion in the GT class was a FR Corvette. They didn't drift that 24h race to win and no FF was in that race because everyone knows MR and FR are better layouts for racing. Once again I'm not hating on FFs. LOL I drive a EG6 with a engine from the del sol LOL I love it but I know FRs perform better. FFs are here because they are cheaper to manufacture
Cars Can be Setup to match drivers needs and feels. The difference is in the tire usage. In general, an FF car will then to work the front tires more than the other layout. It's an inherited problem that rear it head out when things get tight and twisty like mountain runs, rally etc. Its not that FF cars cant compete we the others (Hey mini c did win rallies in the past). But the burden on the driver is more since they has to always keep themselves check and not work the front end too much.
@apexdna You day. You said I'm using extremes. when you yourself said FR loses stability. Damn that corvette in that won in Le Mans this year was pretty damn stable to me. It ran 24H and was still going like a rocket.
@apexdna Well if you put it that way, to know your roots. Honda started off with the FR S500 So if the S500 didn't have an engine either will your civics. NSX technology was ahead of its time, what made the engine in the NSX special wasn't just VTEC. Variable valve timing wasn't invent by Honda. The C30A had titanium rods and a coated bore to make the engine super durable and high revving.
@apexdna yes they both have advantages and disadvantages. But a tuned fr can put more power down better than any tuned ff. All high end circuit cars are rwd. But ff's are usually lighter than fr's so in competitions where the max power isnt too high like in some rallies and hill climbs ff's can out do fr's.
Forget about Mugen's and Modulo's FD2s and their drivers, the Drift King and Hattori aka "FF Master"...the fact that a factory FD2 was faster than both S2000s @ Tsukuba, the mecca of time attack, is telling us something, especially considering the fact that S2000s have double-wishbone suspension all around (versus just the rear in FD2).
@apexdna The best racing drivers in the world prefer FR or anything RWD over a FF. My definition is not just a theory, it's the laws of physics that you cannot escape. You accelerate the weight of your car transfer to the rear, the front lose traction and therefore you lose acceleration. It's also fact that MRs accelerate better than FRs due to more weight in the back.
@c312eal We're talking about cars, drivetrain-layout-wise, not power equipment. Although Honda''s lawn mower engines do happen to be one of the most widely used "power equipment" engines, but let's not change the subject here, shall we? How many times do I have to repeat myself, before it starts to sink in - nobody's comparing Honda's RWDs to FFs, they're different drivetrain layouts. Apples to oranges, my little friend.
@apexdna LOL the 4AGE is not F1 derived. The 4AGE was made WAY before Toyota joined F1. Prior to 2002, Toyota had no F1 experience therefore the old 4AGE was not related to F1. Infact road vehicles engines are nothing like F1 engines. If you drove an F1 engine like a road car, it'd break.
@apexdna Tsuchiya owns a special NSX given to him by Honda. If Honda thought that their FFs were their best cars, Honda would've given him a FF ^.^ Honda raced the NSX in super gt despite MR being outlawed by Super GT. They never once throught of racing a FF in GT500 because they knew the NSX was their best machine. Their pride, their joy. "Our Dream come true" is referred to the NSX and not a FF by Honda. Honda's best car is therefore an RWD and no a FF.
@c312eal As of 2000s, it is. It's very trendy to hate on FFs. Most Americans don't drift, but they DO like their power, that's for sure. The current mainstream drift scene (both in the US and Japan) is joke. All they do is powerslide. Every drift technique is used in conjunction with "power over". But it's not what it used to be. It was like you've said, the art of getting sideways, whether it's an FF, FR, or AWD. While rally encompasses drifting, it is NOT drifting per say.
Proven how? Please elaborate. Suspension design, suspension setup (spring rates, damping adjustment, sway bar thickness, etc.), chassis rigidity, wheelbase length, track width, alignment, tire pressure, tire width, tire compound and sidewall-thickness are only some of the factors that affect handling. Given everything is the same on both cars, except for the drivetrain layout, they will handle the same until, wait for it, throttle is being used.
@apexdna But in all these categories, RWD Honda excel more than FFs. the CTR is a everyday car that Honda decided to make more sporty and put type r into. In essence its still a city everyday car design. Honda gets serious when it starts making RWD machines. Those are the REAL and sports machines. Not a civic I do groceries and put my baby seat in the back in
@c312eal You seem very confused. You can't use an FF like you would an FR in certain situations (and vice versa). Yet at the same time, there are a lot of ways you can use a similar method between the two drivetrain layouts to get a similar (end) result. Take a wheelie bar used in drag racing for example - there are traction bars made for FFs. They do the same job of planting the front (they even look the same), whether it's for stability (in FRs), OR traction (in FFs).
Maybe you don't see it, but you just proved my point. FF cars handle quite different from FR, MR, or RR cars. Hence why we don't have front wheel drive F1 cars. And I don't even know what initial D is, can you elaborate please?
@iknowcarsbetterthanu Again, not necessarily. Most factory FRs tend to understeer like pigs anyways. Drivetrain layout has very little to do with the actual handling of the car. Both drivetrain layouts have their advantages/disadvantages...some of the best rally and touring cars, are FFs. Honda won both 2010 & 2011 BTCC in their Euro Civic (which isn't that great to begin with).
@c312eal Just because the engine is making more power from the factory does NOT make it a BETTER engine OVERALL...there's so many other factors to consider, beginning with aftermarket support and all the way to the actual usage of the motor, both by the manufacturer and the public.
@c312eal That's because F20C is an RWD-based engine, am I correct? Just because something is better out-of-the-box does not make it better overall... Engine for engine: K20A > F20C BUT, if it's in an S2000, why put a K20A, if you have an F20C already?
@monster2000k Even then, K-series still has better aftermarket support which says a lot about the engine, especially considering that the best Hondas are FFs imho and swapping a F20C into FF chassis isn't feasible, am I correct? Anyways, it's like comparing a D16A6 to a Z6, sure Z6 is better out the box, but A6 has that much bigger potential, so in the end A6 wins, and that's with the head comparison alone...but I do have to admit I AM new to the newer stuff tho, no pun intended.
@c312eal Not necessarily, as there were some close shots in the past. Cars like the Nissan Primera, which was very successful in touring car championships, equipped with FR-based SR20 and double-wishbone suspension. Toyota's FF AE-chassis with F1-derived 4AGE, one of the few motors with 5-valves-per-cylinder (found only on cars like the Ferrari F355). FF Alfa Romes, which were just as successful in touring car racing, with interesting suspension setups. Peugeot 200-series and others...
@apexdna Under 300hp FF has a chance. But no matter what FR's advantages are greater. FF adds addition wear on the front tires. Think about it you're using 2 tires to do all your work load, accelerating, braking, and turning. That's some stress and wear on the tires. FF also has a acceleration disadvantage compared to FR. Every time you corner exit its like a restart and acceleration starts all over again. FR has an advantage at that time too.
@apexdna I don't know if you watched Senna do his lap but it was pretty casual. I don't hate FF's. I myself am a Honda fan and I love all the Type Rs. Since you mentioned KT, did you know that KT set the Tsukuba circuit record with an NSX? And that his favourite car is the FR 86? He also set the tough record in his home Usui touge with an NSX. Do you see any FF cars in here? Like I said okay under 300hp FF has a chance but over 300hp FF just doesn't have that potential
@apexdna Because the K20 is a new engine that the F20C. It has new technology ex iVTEC vs VTEC. And stock wise the F20C still makes more power and revs higher. If equipped with the iVTEC kit, the F20C will be even better.
@c312eal Sales are just one of the many factors when choosing the best car in a given drivetrain layout. Toyota's best cars happen to be 4x4s, even tho I must admit they DID make some decent FFs during the '90s. "...CTRs...would get smashed by the NSX..." And pretty much any super car will devour the NSX alive, so what's your point? "NSX...It'll drive better than any Honda FF. It'll go faster than any FF." Apples to oranges, my friend. Apple to oranges...
@apexdna JGTC was one that let FF race along side with MRs and FRs. It let your FF accord race beside other drivetrains and guess what? since it was a FF and they knew it was disadvantage they decided to let it be 50kg lighter than the FRs and MRs. I don't need you to tell me what I deserve to drive or not? In north america the eg6 doesn't always have a b16a.
@apexdna But the NSX was Honda's ultimate car and when Honda wanted to put their best effort in making a car they chose RWD over FF. Honda knows their shit and if they knew FF was better they would've made the NSX FF. RWD has more advantages in performance than FF has over RWD. This includes FR and MR.
@c312eal I'm not gonna argue that FR is overall a better drivetrain layout, but again it depends solely on the application. There are only a handful of people that have mastered the FF layout, and to majority it's still a mystery...that textbook definition you gave me is nothing more than a theory from an FR perspective.
![Best Motoring - [9/10] HKS Genesis vs IS-F vs Mustang GT vs Camaro SS vs E500](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/IRcOyyA-ZUM/mqdefault.jpg)
the way that this Mugen RR revs is so fast!!!! incredible,...
I dont understand shit, but i just love these japanese race track videos especially when compare different cars. It seems like they really enjoy driving their hondas just like i enjoy mine. Still, subtitles would be sweet
They couldn't find a tuned S2000 for this test, eh? :raises eyebrow: ;)
I understand enough japanese to halfway understand it's funny how the racers were shocked themselves to see the S2000 lose to the new Civic. The Civic is said to be almost as equally fast as the late 90's 280HP japanese sports cars and that says a lot
These guys are great! listen to them having so much fun in these great cars! :D
its amazing how quickly everyone forgets about driving technique when two different drive trains are put against each other. it doesnt matter how much power you put into you car if your a better driver you will win, power only matters if you and your opponent's skills are the same.
I love how people will fight over anything.
If you think a regular Civic SI here is going to do that you're mistaken. Those S2000s are stock.
The last civic type R is stock too and it still beats the s2k....
Thats why Civics Type Rs don't pass smog tests in the US or Europe cause its stock. oh... I missed that part.
The civic would pass in the UK
That type R is stock, from factory just the way it is in the video, just because it's been built to a higher standard by Honda doesn't mean it's not "stock"
Steve Langdon lol 1st and Second place were taken by best motorings 2 best drivers.. Coincidence I think not lol
civic Si has nothing to do with the FD2,different purposes behind them for different customers. S2K is really really great sports car while the FD2 is a track focus car.
The laptimes don't care if you dive a FF or RWD. If you want to be fast, choose your weapon. Trying to argue which is better is pointless. The beauty is that all these mediums exist and that's how a culture exists! :)
Great vid and great drivers.
みんなめちゃくちゃ楽しそうに走ってる
スバルも好きだったけどホンダも好きだ
You know K.Tsuchiya's in trouble whenever his voice goes falsetto, lol
@c312eal First of all, K20A is an FF engine. And second, since Honda has excelled at FFs more than any other car manufacturer, makes it the best Honda engine ever made...
I wonder why Honda never made a S2000 Type R... that would've been sweet! I mean the Type S/CR isn't really made in the same way as a Type R car. I think that the result of something like that would've been interesting to see
The real reason why the S2Ks lost is that their roofs were down . And that caused air streams .
one of the best 240p videos ,better then most of the supercar videos from owners with hand cameras in 240..
To all FWD haters:don't blame yourself.FF takes skill to be driven fast.It is not your fault that you can't drive...but no need to blame the car as well.
FD2は速すぎるもんなー
S2000とでは相手にならんなー笑
でもチューニングの素材としたらS2最高やねんなー
love the sound of the Mugen rr
@apexdna You can see the FF disadvantage too once its tuned. FF over 300hp is really not good on track while the FR s2k is still amazing. With over 300hp for a FF on acceleration you're just going to get tire spin because a the weight of the car goes to the back and the front becomes super light. The stress on the front tires will be overwhelming, braking turning and accelerating with the front tires. That's gonna kill your tires faster than a FR.
これS2のタイヤってセカンドグレードのRE050よね？シビックと同じハイグリップのRE11だったらどうなったんだろ？
加速でおもっきり負けてるように見えるのでどのみち負けてるのかなと思います
Man I wish my 8th gen SI were that fast
Tune it bro, with bolt ons. Add polyurethane front lca's and a 22mm-24mm rear sway bar. You'd compete with the fd2r.
@apexdna Funny thing is the NSX was made and designed inspired by F1. It was to celebrate their success of F1 having direct input from the F1 legend Senna. NSX embodies Honda's F1 effort. These technologies were implemented into the NSX before it was trickled down to the FFs of Honda.
I want that double r that thing is a beautiful machine
タイヤ同じにしたらどうなんだろ…
@hurtingguy15 i aggree with you. Besides for differences between FWD and RWD to be seen the track should have more tight turns or the cars should be more powerful
@c312eal NSXs actually DO have more cargo space than most super cars, thanks to the usable rear trunk, in addition to the more common front compartment for the spare.
@apexdna The Type R FD2 chassis is different from the USDM Si civic. Different chassis code, different chassis improvements in the FD2, its more rigid, lighter and has a more aggressive suspension set up than even the SI's. FRs have more potential the FFs. Just look at the LFA. You don't see companies making 500hp super car FF because it would be unpractical and unusable
@c312eal In Canada, they actually did sell an EM1 SiRs, which were basically re-badged Si's w/OBD-2 B16As, while EX were sold as Si...but only in Canada.
del Sol VTEC (SiR in Japan) did had a B16A, but not EH3s (USDM Civic Si) as they came with D16Z6s...isn't that the reason you swapped a B16A into your EH-chassis Civic hatchback in the first place?
@apexdna I have a b16a in my civic. I'm not saying that but titanium rods and fiber coated bores were unheard of when the NSX came out. The C30A is a racing engine too. It was used for racing by Honda.
I hope they do more stuff like this on Top Gear Japan, better know as Best Motor TV.
@ClubbySuperCharged It is, they were comparing new Civics (at the time) vs. still-in-production S2000s, NSXs were no longer made (at the time).
@c312eal They had too, because it's main target was the Ferrari 328/348 and the Formula 1 cars that were/are MRs. Honda has excelled at FFs more than anyone else did (overall), so therefore the best FFs are Honda and vice versa (again, overall). What's so hard to understand? Nobody's arguing what's a better (overall) drivetrain layout is...
I think the Mugen RR you're referring to is the advanced concept model. The Mugen RR featured in this race weighs a bit less than 2800 and has 240 ps. Regardless, it was a slaughter, the s2000 had the 2.2 liter engine.
@apexdna Why do you say that? the S2K chassis is amazing, its rigid and light despite being a convertible. Usually convertibles are known to been less rigid but thanks to s2k's x frame its strong. It's light too, the S2k has been known to have cornering abilities to beat the NSX in a few corners. The civic or integras were never compared to the NSX. If anything s2k chassis > civics or integras. Just by that fact its FR it has more potential and even stock more ability than a FF.
@timmyXx101xX Apples to oranges, my friend. An S2000 was created to celebrate the Honda's 50th anniversary, and as a tribute to the first Honda automobile, the S500. But you're right, both drivetrain layouts have their own advantages and disadvantages, whether it's power or handling. Type Rs came from SiRs which came from Si's. The F1-derived VTEC first appeared in 1989 on a Civic-based chassis.
モデューロのNSX カッコよすぎるしこのシビックもカッコいいしデザインはいいね
a lot of people don't understand that best motoring is also there to advertise and promote cars. In this case they're promoting the new type r that came out during this video. They had other videos afterwards showing the s2000 beating the fd2r.
Oh don't get me wrong, i love RWD myself, but Ive learned not 2 under estimate a mildly tunned FWD car, like that new nissan maxima, that thing is a FWD beast! its out runnin BMW's & we all know the BMW's are RWD, but I like em both. I guess what im tryna say is that, with all the engineering and technology that goes into these cars now-a-days, i would have to say the playing field is pretty even no matter the drive-train, It's up 2 the driver 2 deliver as seen in this video when the FF car won.
0:00 ~ 1:28 Days Like These - Justify
Imagine that the 2 best drivers ended up in 1st and 2nd lol
The Mugen car puts power down on corner exit like a boss.
@c312eal Yet "top 3" technologies borrowed from F1, the (1) double-wishbone suspension and (2) PGM-FI was found as early as 1985 in Accords, with (3) VTEC in the 1989 Civic SiR, a whole year before the release of NSX in 1990...
@iknowcarsbetterthanu Very true. FFs also have less power loss thru drivetrain. And by rally, I mean Group A, and later, the WRC - the pinnacle of automotive racing. Even Formula 1 can be traced back to the rally racing, which lent a lot of it's technologies to Honda road cars (namely FFs) in the late '80s/early-'90s...the VTEC, the double-wishbone suspension, and programmed fuel injection all came from Honda's efforts in Formula 1 during those years as an engine supplier.
@c312eal That IS exactly what I've said. What I'm talking about is the double-wishbone equipped Civic-based chassis of the '90s. The Integra, and the Civic on which it is based on, and a few other models like the CR-X and del Sol. A lot of mechanical parts are interchangeable, from engine to suspension. DC2 is based on the EG6 and DC5 on EP3, they aren't all that different.
Know your roots.
@apexdna FR isn't always for drifting. Yes the silvias are drift machines because ppl choose them to be. The LFA is a FR but its made for some SERIOUS speed. Hell load of downforce and power. Laps the ring faster than the GT-R. If you think I'm a FR drifting fanboy, you got me wrong. I like engines behind my seat :P Porsches, Ferraris, Lambos. MR and RRs.
Btw, Stock s2000 final drive gear ratio is matched for european's freeways thus hurting its accel when compared to the shorter and more agrassive CTR. ;)
@c312eal So you're saying that the original B16A wasn't as "super durable and high revving" as NSX's C30A?
@c312eal Rally IS the pinnacle of automotive racing. Not only is it the oldest form of motorsport dating back to the late 1800s, but also the most demanding. It gave gave birth to Formula 1 in 1950s, and has seen a fair share of winning FF machines since then. And NO, not in Formula 1, before this stems into yet another misunderstanding.
@apexdna 1st thing, FRs are not just for drifting. This year in Le Mans the champion in the GT class was a FR Corvette. They didn't drift that 24h race to win and no FF was in that race because everyone knows MR and FR are better layouts for racing. Once again I'm not hating on FFs. LOL I drive a EG6 with a engine from the del sol LOL I love it but I know FRs perform better. FFs are here because they are cheaper to manufacture
Cars Can be Setup to match drivers needs and feels. The difference is in the tire usage. In general, an FF car will then to work the front tires more than the other layout. It's an inherited problem that rear it head out when things get tight and twisty like mountain runs, rally etc. Its not that FF cars cant compete we the others (Hey mini c did win rallies in the past). But the burden on the driver is more since they has to always keep themselves check and not work the front end too much.
This race proves it's all about who's driving. Put Tsuchia in an S2000 and the race would be over on the first lap.
@apexdna Put your kids in the back seats? Fold back seats down for some extra cargo space?
@apexdna You day. You said I'm using extremes. when you yourself said FR loses stability. Damn that corvette in that won in Le Mans this year was pretty damn stable to me. It ran 24H and was still going like a rocket.
@c312eal And FFs don't lose traction when properly setup. Happy now?
Throught the race
also I wonder how it would have turned out if they had their tops up.
it that example- yea. but on the track, you dont want the power wheels to steer
@apexdna Well if you put it that way, to know your roots. Honda started off with the FR S500 So if the S500 didn't have an engine either will your civics. NSX technology was ahead of its time, what made the engine in the NSX special wasn't just VTEC. Variable valve timing wasn't invent by Honda. The C30A had titanium rods and a coated bore to make the engine super durable and high revving.
@apexdna yes they both have advantages and disadvantages. But a tuned fr can put more power down better than any tuned ff. All high end circuit cars are rwd. But ff's are usually lighter than fr's so in competitions where the max power isnt too high like in some rallies and hill climbs ff's can out do fr's.
Civic is nice and even if the s2000 doesnt have a K20, I don't mind the 9k RPM F20c (AP1) and it's always fun to drive an FR. s2k ftw
What? S2000's with the tops down? Why on earth would the S2000 "S" lose to the regular S2000
Forget about Mugen's and Modulo's FD2s and their drivers, the Drift King and Hattori aka "FF Master"...the fact that a factory FD2 was faster than both S2000s @ Tsukuba, the mecca of time attack, is telling us something, especially considering the fact that S2000s have double-wishbone suspension all around (versus just the rear in FD2).
@apexdna The best racing drivers in the world prefer FR or anything RWD over a FF. My definition is not just a theory, it's the laws of physics that you cannot escape. You accelerate the weight of your car transfer to the rear, the front lose traction and therefore you lose acceleration. It's also fact that MRs accelerate better than FRs due to more weight in the back.
just sharing what i know from experience having driven and owned several fwd and rwd sports cars
@c312eal We're talking about cars, drivetrain-layout-wise, not power equipment. Although Honda''s lawn mower engines do happen to be one of the most widely used "power equipment" engines, but let's not change the subject here, shall we? How many times do I have to repeat myself, before it starts to sink in - nobody's comparing Honda's RWDs to FFs, they're different drivetrain layouts. Apples to oranges, my little friend.
@apexdna LOL the 4AGE is not F1 derived. The 4AGE was made WAY before Toyota joined F1. Prior to 2002, Toyota had no F1 experience therefore the old 4AGE was not related to F1. Infact road vehicles engines are nothing like F1 engines. If you drove an F1 engine like a road car, it'd break.
@gpower88 Yeah, like 10 years ago...
@apexdna This should be a Honda battle.
@apexdna Tsuchiya owns a special NSX given to him by Honda. If Honda thought that their FFs were their best cars, Honda would've given him a FF ^.^
Honda raced the NSX in super gt despite MR being outlawed by Super GT. They never once throught of racing a FF in GT500 because they knew the NSX was their best machine. Their pride, their joy. "Our Dream come true" is referred to the NSX and not a FF by Honda. Honda's best car is therefore an RWD and no a FF.
@c312eal As of 2000s, it is. It's very trendy to hate on FFs. Most Americans don't drift, but they DO like their power, that's for sure. The current mainstream drift scene (both in the US and Japan) is joke. All they do is powerslide. Every drift technique is used in conjunction with "power over". But it's not what it used to be. It was like you've said, the art of getting sideways, whether it's an FF, FR, or AWD. While rally encompasses drifting, it is NOT drifting per say.
Proven how? Please elaborate. Suspension design, suspension setup (spring rates, damping adjustment, sway bar thickness, etc.), chassis rigidity, wheelbase length, track width, alignment, tire pressure, tire width, tire compound and sidewall-thickness are only some of the factors that affect handling. Given everything is the same on both cars, except for the drivetrain layout, they will handle the same until, wait for it, throttle is being used.
The sound of VTEC oooooooooooooooofffffffff!
Like a swarm of angry bees!
its easier to drive fwd fast what makes you think otherwise?
@apexdna But in all these categories, RWD Honda excel more than FFs. the CTR is a everyday car that Honda decided to make more sporty and put type r into. In essence its still a city everyday car design. Honda gets serious when it starts making RWD machines. Those are the REAL and sports machines. Not a civic I do groceries and put my baby seat in the back in
@c312eal You seem very confused. You can't use an FF like you would an FR in certain situations (and vice versa). Yet at the same time, there are a lot of ways you can use a similar method between the two drivetrain layouts to get a similar (end) result. Take a wheelie bar used in drag racing for example - there are traction bars made for FFs. They do the same job of planting the front (they even look the same), whether it's for stability (in FRs), OR traction (in FFs).
Maybe you don't see it, but you just proved my point. FF cars handle quite different from FR, MR, or RR cars. Hence why we don't have front wheel drive F1 cars. And I don't even know what initial D is, can you elaborate please?
@iknowcarsbetterthanu Again, not necessarily. Most factory FRs tend to understeer like pigs anyways. Drivetrain layout has very little to do with the actual handling of the car. Both drivetrain layouts have their advantages/disadvantages...some of the best rally and touring cars, are FFs. Honda won both 2010 & 2011 BTCC in their Euro Civic (which isn't that great to begin with).
@c312eal Just because the engine is making more power from the factory does NOT make it a BETTER engine OVERALL...there's so many other factors to consider, beginning with aftermarket support and all the way to the actual usage of the motor, both by the manufacturer and the public.
@c312eal That's because F20C is an RWD-based engine, am I correct? Just because something is better out-of-the-box does not make it better overall...
Engine for engine: K20A > F20C
BUT, if it's in an S2000, why put a K20A, if you have an F20C already?
@monster2000k Even then, K-series still has better aftermarket support which says a lot about the engine, especially considering that the best Hondas are FFs imho and swapping a F20C into FF chassis isn't feasible, am I correct? Anyways, it's like comparing a D16A6 to a Z6, sure Z6 is better out the box, but A6 has that much bigger potential, so in the end A6 wins, and that's with the head comparison alone...but I do have to admit I AM new to the newer stuff tho, no pun intended.
Hat off to the FWD Hondas!! Not many times you will see a fwd beat a rwd!
@c312eal Not necessarily, as there were some close shots in the past. Cars like the Nissan Primera, which was very successful in touring car championships, equipped with FR-based SR20 and double-wishbone suspension. Toyota's FF AE-chassis with F1-derived 4AGE, one of the few motors with 5-valves-per-cylinder (found only on cars like the Ferrari F355). FF Alfa Romes, which were just as successful in touring car racing, with interesting suspension setups. Peugeot 200-series and others...
@apexdna Under 300hp FF has a chance. But no matter what FR's advantages are greater. FF adds addition wear on the front tires. Think about it you're using 2 tires to do all your work load, accelerating, braking, and turning. That's some stress and wear on the tires. FF also has a acceleration disadvantage compared to FR. Every time you corner exit its like a restart and acceleration starts all over again. FR has an advantage at that time too.
@monster2000k People actually swap K20s into S2000s and not the other way around.
@apexdna I don't know if you watched Senna do his lap but it was pretty casual. I don't hate FF's. I myself am a Honda fan and I love all the Type Rs. Since you mentioned KT, did you know that KT set the Tsukuba circuit record with an NSX? And that his favourite car is the FR 86? He also set the tough record in his home Usui touge with an NSX. Do you see any FF cars in here? Like I said okay under 300hp FF has a chance but over 300hp FF just doesn't have that potential
VTEC Kicks !
Honda can create some serious FWD cars.
@apexdna Because the K20 is a new engine that the F20C. It has new technology ex iVTEC vs VTEC. And stock wise the F20C still makes more power and revs higher. If equipped with the iVTEC kit, the F20C will be even better.
@c312eal And who made the best FF cars? Honda.
@c312eal Sales are just one of the many factors when choosing the best car in a given drivetrain layout. Toyota's best cars happen to be 4x4s, even tho I must admit they DID make some decent FFs during the '90s.
"...CTRs...would get smashed by the NSX..."
And pretty much any super car will devour the NSX alive, so what's your point?
"NSX...It'll drive better than any Honda FF. It'll go faster than any FF."
Apples to oranges, my friend. Apple to oranges...
@apexdna JGTC was one that let FF race along side with MRs and FRs. It let your FF accord race beside other drivetrains and guess what? since it was a FF and they knew it was disadvantage they decided to let it be 50kg lighter than the FRs and MRs. I don't need you to tell me what I deserve to drive or not? In north america the eg6 doesn't always have a b16a.
japanese sounds like a fun language, these guys sound like they are young kids having a great time lol
Where the f*ck is the Race? All I saw was a Video Clip with some amazing music in it. My ears loved it!
@XlopenX Very true...
Thats true thats why im thinks about a nsx or s2000.
@apexdna But the NSX was Honda's ultimate car and when Honda wanted to put their best effort in making a car they chose RWD over FF. Honda knows their shit and if they knew FF was better they would've made the NSX FF. RWD has more advantages in performance than FF has over RWD. This includes FR and MR.
5.1 final drive vs 4.3 on Tsukuba lol but the FD2 was the best Type-R Civic ever made
@c312eal I'm not gonna argue that FR is overall a better drivetrain layout, but again it depends solely on the application. There are only a handful of people that have mastered the FF layout, and to majority it's still a mystery...that textbook definition you gave me is nothing more than a theory from an FR perspective.