Game of Thrones/ASOIAF Theories | Did Benjen Trick Jon?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ต.ค. 2024
- What the heck is Benjen really up to and why did he end up at the Wall?
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This is like a breath of fresh air amidst the stench of all the D&D BS. Thank you.
And we all know you're not talking about Dungeons and Dragons, which unironically is what Game of Thrones turned into.
I'm sure Hollywood would like everyone's brain to be turned off permanently if they can help it.
I just finished binge watching the whole of GoT in a week and am curious as to why the show gets so much hate. Sure, the last couple of seasons were shorter and had quite a few things that were annoying but I can't understand why people think they were 'that' awful.
@@BadNews885 There is a thousand videos on youtube explaining one reason or another
Read the books. You will quickly understand the hate.
Hmm I never realised how cold benjen actually was, I guess I'm still kind of blind by show benjen, thanks for pointing this out and keep up the good work.
Tywin Lannister and there‘s the point; show version of Benjen (only season one) is as likely as this theory
Notorious 😂I laughed way to hard at this
Notorious1503 died on the shitter no less 😂😂😂
Show Benjen is definitely preferred
Here's one I cooked up for you... What if Benjen was as ambitious as many of the other characters in the story, and made a play to become Lord of Winterfell when Ned and Robert are defeated, but they won, and thus ruined his plan? Maybe Lyanna's promise has nothing to do with Jon, or her stillborn baby, and she begged Ned not to have Benjen executed. Ned forces Benjen to go to the Wall but lets him save face by "volunteering." Ned would likely forbid Benjen from returning, their interactions are not brotherly, but because of his promise not to execute him, and because he is a Night's Watch brother Ned is forced to interact and welcome Benjen so long as he is not deserting or breaking any laws. Haha! Just digging rabbit holes...
But as for Benjen's attire, remember that the Night's Watch didn't exactly have uniforms. Waymar Royce wears much nicer clothing than his fellow rangers in the prologue. Of the members of the Night's Watch that we get to meet, are any as wealthy as House Stark? Maybe Janos Slynt? And maybe the three Stark brothers were like the three Baratheon brothers: Brandon-Robert, Ned-Stannis, Benjen-Renley.
House Royce would likely be a bit richer than House Stark (considering how close Runestone is to Gulltown), but you've mentioned Waymar already.
Oh I like this, there are far too many good Starks, it would be interesting seeing a more grey, Lannister-like character if you will
Its true that the Watch doesn't have as much of an uniform as a dress code. You need to wear all black and for your own good it should be made for the cold but it's not standardised. Also love the Baratheon-Stark brother trio mirroring thing. Your theories are great.
Nice theory definitely plausible since all the Starks seem honorable. Every family has a Black 🐑
Very interesting.... I do agree that Benjen definitely knew and didn't tell his motivations are unclear and Ned definitely sent him to The Wall in any account. His eyes may still have some laughter in them but it only hides the bitterness and resentment burried deep within.
He deserted. That's for sure. Maybe with Ned so far away he felt safe to do so or maybe he was in on some secret I'm not thinking of right now. I took a break from rereading the books every year since George can't get his shit together. 🤷♀️
I always wondered if Benjen "snuck out" to join the feast at Winterfell. There seems to be no reason for Mormont to grant him leave to party. Benjen shows up at Wintetfell, eats drinks and doesnt bother speaking to Ned then leaves. Am I missing something here.
The order of the green hand theory of Ned sending Benjen to the wall to hide Jon’s parentage is plausible but so is anyone else’s. Your idea of Mormont allowing Benjen to go to Winterfell is interesting especially the timing of Robert one and only royal precession asking Ned to be the hand. Why then? We don’t get to see Benjen interact with anyone else of importance. Mormont could have allowed Benjen to go at anytime. They might be larger game at play. Benjen has a pretty established relationship with Jon for a man of the watch and first ranger (he isn’t a recruiter ie travels mostly north of the wall) so he must visit fairly often is might be odd for a guy who basically has disowned his family. If Ned sent Benjen to the wall because he basically is a second son should be pissed off or vengeful. I’m wondering if Mormont, Ned, Benjen being first ranger maybe involved Mance, Craster and maybe others into a grander conspiracy. Is Jon the north’s insurance policy if it turns out Rob is Brandon’s child and/or if Rob died? Jon being a Ned clone and 100% loyal to the North if the kingdoms ever splintered the only one capable of leading the north? Does Ned truly believe with Robert at the helm instead of the Dragon lords who ruled with fear-the kingdoms are on the verge of collapse but he will try his best to prevent that from happening so he sends Jon in his trusted brother’s care and leadership like Mormont (maybe at some point Koran, Tormund and Mance) to be the leader he can be? Does Benjen keep his distance from Ned so it’s not obvious they have a secret plan that the royal party or anyone else can know about?. Benjen does dress awfully fancy for a guy who’s job is more or less a survivalist north of the wall…in my opinion.
the "Lord of Light" deemed it so
He probably let him go with the hope of him talking to King Robert about sending new recruits. Ned did attempt to broach the subject with the king.
@@swordothemorning This. There was nothing else to it, Benjen was first ranger and was only proper that he ask Robert or anyone important from the King's party for recruits.
Would be pretty cool if Benjen came specifically to speak with Mance.
"Hello, and welcome back to the Wolf's Den"
These words are not wind
“My father dreamed of resettling the Gift,” Jon admitted. “He and my uncle Benjen used to talk of it.” - Storm of Swords, Jon , Ch. 76
we didn't say they don't talk...it just doesn't appear that they talk about anything other than business
What gets me is that this is simply not possible to do. The North is sparsely populated to begin with, and the smallfolk would not want to live so close to the Wall with the threat of Wildlings. Smallfolk cannot be ordered to move on that scale, not enough to make a difference. Thousands would be needed to make such a plan feasible. The Gift provides a buffer. It takes coin to raise new keeps, and the burden would fall squarely on Ned. Mormont was also quite prickly, and might not have agreed in the first place. For all we know, the idea was spoken of and dismissed as being impossible, or it would have been done long before.
I thought Ned Stark usually fought Kat to have Jon sit at the table like any of his other children, hence why Benjen wondered why he was hidden away in the back for once.
It would’ve seemed odd to him that Ned caved and treated Jon like a bastard when he usually didn’t.
Atleast that’s what I took from it.
I kind of felt like Ned knew enough about Cersei to not want things to go awry the first time he saw his best friend in 9 years, and he accepted Cat's idea based on that
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand yeah Jon said Cersei was already angry, Ned could perhaps saw it and thought better of poking an angry woman further.
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand In one of Cersei's POV chapters she reflects that Catelyn has "no spine" because she never arranged to have Jon murdered. Definitely better to just keep Jon out of her sight.
Hm, 5 years late but: couldn't it also be that Benjen wanted to probe if Jon already knew about his parents? Maybe Benjen knew Jon was always sitting at the family table but now that Robert is here, he is not allowed to. Maybe Benjen figured that Ned did not want Robert to be able to look at Jon all evening/night and maybe asking too many questions that could lead to somebody figuring out the truth.
Thank y’all so much for bringing back the book theories during the season. I love the show, but I can’t believe how much I actually missed talking/listening about book theories. Keep pumping out the good stuff!
I couldn't say it better. This is exactly how I feel
If this theory is true(from the evidence presented, I think it is true), this would give even more credence to Jon being Neds son. Why would Benjen use lyanna's son(and rightful king) to get revenge on Ned for sending him to the wall? If the whole point of Benjen holding a grudge comes from him being mad at Ned for the way he handled the situation with R+L, and the fact that Benjen was really close with Lyanna, that would seem to be even more evidence that Jon really is Neds son.
Rod Stone Jon wouldn’t be rightful king even if he is Lyanna and Rhaegar‘s son
GRRM points out several times how much Jon looks and acts like Ned. I truely believe Jon will turn out to be Ned's (trueborn) son in the books.
Peter Parker he also points out how much Arya looks like Lyanna and she isn‘t hers...
@@michelmorio8026 but she doesn't 😂. 'Horseface' Arya. I think Arya's resmblence to Lyanna is more her looks in conjunction with her personality and demeanor rather than solely looks like its suggested in the case of Jon, there is so much emphasis and harping on about how Jon looks like Ned its crazy.
Kamou flage why do I even argue; it seems you only see, what you wanna see
I would like to see a video about the great northern conspiracy.
House Dayne's secret words "Ned sent Benjen to the wall" George planned it all!
In a way, this could tie in really well with your theory of N+A=J. I think if Jon was really Lyanna's son, I think Benjen would have been a lot nicer to him considering that Jon would be the child of his favorite sibling. Or something like that.
Yeah considering that relationship with Rhaegar brought doom upon her and entire Stark family pretty much ruined her life I doubt he could look past that
@@emotionallyslutty Not if he helped them hide (as there is a theory that says Rhaegar and Lyanna were hiding in the crypts of Winterfell, instead of the Tower of Joy in Dorne), which would mean he also had a part of the doom of his family, which would justify why Ned doesn't seem to like him very much and why he was sent to the Wall
Victoria Exactly! I think he had some genuine animosity between him and Ned. Think about it: Ned comes home to rally the troops for marching south w/ Ashara and Baby Jon in tow, finds out R+L were hiding in the First Keep (aka. Tower of Joy) making Baby Aegon (+Baby Val??), and not only was Benjen complicit but he knew the truth of Baby Aegon’s claim. Considering OTGH’s great timeline analysis, it’s likely Rhaegar had left behind Sers Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent, and Gerold Hightower to guard Lyanna - all of whom had broken their vows by not protecting their King, Prince, or Princesses. They might’ve fought, but Lyanna’s dying from childbirth meant there were no credible witnesses save for Benjen, so Ned devises a plan to swap the three babies (Aegon/Ashara, Val/Arthur, Jon/Ned) and send everyone North or East. Benjen’s joining the Night’s Watch would be the excuse to bring along Dayne and Whent (as Mance and Qorin), they’d rise the ranks of the Rangers, and get themselves in important positions for when Tormund (Hightower) started uniting the tribes as King-Beyond-The-Wall. Mance deserts, "defeats" Tormund in a duel, and sets about uniting the wildling with storybook ease b/c the First Ranger and the Half-Hand can’t manage to catch him. It would better explain his anger imo if, after all those years of sacrifice, he thinks Ned has seated their House’s only true-born heir below Tully bastards. Maybe he thinks it’s time Jon met his OTHER uncle...Arthur Danye (aka. Mance)?
Ameratsu Rivers if there were twins they could have easily been born early. Everyone always assumes 40 week gestation when trying to figure out the conception to birth timeline.
Opps! I meant twins
The google says twins are full term at 37 weeks and they are usually born between 32 to 37 weeks.
AND. They count weeks pregnant from last period so week 1 and 2 you are “pregnant” but you aren’t. So in the timeline you would use 33 weeks to 30 weeks from conception to birth.
“The moron playing the high harp”😂that made my day
I think maybe Benjen might of chosen the wall as he felt bad for the deaths of his father and brother if only he told them Lyanna and Rhaegar had meet and kinda liked each other (knight of the laughing tree theory) they would still be alive and even if they didn’t believe him he tried and after seeing life at the wall and how shit it is he’s pissed Ned let him go without a second thought
The show isn't fun to watch anymore but I still have you guys.
Grrm gives mysterious responses when he doesn't want to give shit away. He's only human. I don't think he has the end story for every character he writes. So when he doesn't answer its because he himself doesn't know. He has set clever flag posts in his story but if he gives the way and we figure it all out..then that would diminish his"genius". He wants the respect for his ideas that was denied him from hollywood. I do hope he finishes. That would put all this into awesome pers perspective. Another awesome video👌
tulkas 42o GRRM has said he is a “gardener” style writer, so he wouldn’t have everyone’s storyline laid out
tulkas 42o he has finished the looks over the decades he just waiting till the show is over supply and demand we the fans can get enough of got smart bussiness moved
Peter Smith BS he’s just expanded the story so much and shows no signs of wrapping up that he won’t be releasing the WOW anytime soon
I don't often agree with your theories and analysis's conclusions, but this one makes so much sense I won't be convinced it's not the truth.
This, for me, paints a much different picture of Benjen.
Really looking forward for the followup.
The Order, true to their word and packing theory heat!
Stunning. This makes so much sense. Benjen wanted revenge, so he took Ned's son.
Something you might consider for the next video is what Bran saw happen to Benjen when he crossed stick swords with Lyanna. He fell into the godswood pool, the same thing the pregnant woman who wanted a son to avenge her did, a baptism if you will in the always cold godswood pool where winter fell.
Regarding the pool, even though it's been said time and again that The Ice Dragon short story is not set in Westeros, I cannot help but think that it is. So I have a crazy tinfoil theory that the cold water pool by the Heart tree is the remnants of an ice dragon and the hot springs are what locks it in place... 👀
@@neriumsuitedher The World Book backs up your "crazy tinfoil theory": page 294, "The Shivering Sea" refers to the idea that ice dragons "melt when slain".
Oh sweet another video. I hope aside Benjen we get the rickon video as many fans forget abour these 2
Ok so ive been rereading and thinking hard as usual and I've got some new ideas. I think Benjen is alive and is working with Bloodraven. This video originally planted the thought of the two of them working together in my head. He definitely manipulates Jon into joining the watch as bloodraven manipulates him once there. Then the best ranger in the watch just vanishes without a trace, very similar to bloodravens disappearance. Also, I think Benjen would have been able to recognize Mance at Winterfell, so he may be in on it as well. However the biggest thing that triggers me that Jon is a puppet is the way he found Ghost. Through all 5 books the constantly describe ghost as quiet, silent, and incapable or barking or howling.His fur is also pure white camouflaging him perfectly with the snow, so how the hell did Jon find him?
It could be that sending Jon to the Wall was Ned's plan, and he utilized Ben to manipulate Jon.
It could also be that Ben chose the Wall out of guilt - he wasn't the first Stark to join the Night's Watch, after all. If Ben was sent, he may have felt he deserved to go after so many people died - we just don't know.
I also think that we know too little to say for sure whether Ben's behavior to Jon was truly cold, or if he had other reasons for being distant - we do not know what was going on in his head, what he knows, what he's planning, etc. He may have been distance simply because he felt guilty that Jon was giving his life to the Watch so young, and he had encouraged him.
Also, I doubt that Mormont would have made up his mind about Jon Snow becoming the next Lord Commander so quickly. Benjen could still have been the heir-apparent, and may have planned with Mormont not to have Jon join the rangers in order to protect him - Waymar Royce had a similar look to Jon, if I'm not mistaken, and that seems important somehow.
It's good to think outside the box when theorizing, and this may be one of the possibilities for Benjen's story, but there's too much that's not known to say for sure. I still enjoyed the video.
Ned was taken completely by surprise when Catelyn and Luwin blindsided him with it in Catelyns second chapter
Anyone ever discuss these theories drunk with their friends? One of my favorite things a friend has ever said to me was "You've been talking about ASOIAF for 20 minutes straight and all I got was Catelyn is Satan and everyone's gonna die because the trees eat people."
Oh right, say no to alcohol kids! And an amazing video again guys, I love to have these theories playing in the background when I'm doing my makeup or cooking. Love you!
Lol i wish i knew others in rl who i could get drunk with and talk about these things!
I loved this video. Your work is amazing. I know you guys are busy with live chats but I do enjoy these videos so much.
The theory makes perfect sense. I could see this being spot on. Picking up on the small details and spinning the narrative like you guys do helps me understand the levels of complexity to the story. You guys kill it.
thank you so much
Yay, I broke up with the show a few weeks ago. It’s great to get back to the book.
If there were a book to speak of... It's only been 8 years
you need to watch S8E5 when it comes out in a couple days. I'm about 100% sure we will see both the maggy the frog and azor ahai prophecies fulfilled. A cast member has also said that S8E5 is the one show of the season you don't want to miss.
@Ex- Men what series wouldn't be a disaster if you stop half way through and don't finish it. but, stay on the poopoo bandwagon if you like.
Time will tell.
@@Vecha302
The maggy prophecy did succeed, with her crying and Jamie's hands around her neck, and she suffocated when the roof collapsed on them. "...And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you". We'll have to wait to see if Azor Ahai happens in S8E6. "about 100%" isn't actually 100%. haha. we all make mistakes. And I'm not at all regretful of making an educated guess. Do you contribute to the shows discussion?
Well, Benjen should've been close to Lyanna, not only was she the only sibling around, she was also only a year older than him
Edit: If this is true Benjen is very good at plotting, I mean he went to Lewyn instead to Ned with the news of Jon's interest in joining the Night's Watch, maybe because he knew Ned wouldn't agree to the whole thing if it came from him, so he told Lewyn knowing the grey rat would tell Cat, and thought Cat had a better chance at convincing Ned because she was his wife, damn, and they say the Starks are not good at schemes and plotting
I'd say most people just say Ned was bad at plans and schemes 😂
Finally a video that is not a 5 hour long stream with an information density of 0.001% ;) Great!
Yeah, I honestly think all those streams from GoT youtubers lately has just been a last minute attempt at a cash grab since they know their cash cow (the TV show) was ending soon
So we are suggesting that Benjen manipulated the Jon to the wall situation to spite his brother. I always wonder why he instigated the conversation about the wall, you might be on to something here.
Liked the video before started watching cuz this is going to be good
Always.
Back to basics. Green hand keeps killing it.
I always wondered if Benjen knew about the actual circumstances of Jon’s birth.
icfury I think he absolutely knew
icfury then there is the question which birth... this matter can get quite confusing on this channel
of course he knew... Probably he wanted to tell the truth, that is why he was sent to the Wall...
Indeed, it seems that Jon was Benjen's only target during this trip at Winterfell. We don't have any evidence that he talked to his brother, or to the king, or anyone in the king's entourage. Just to Jon and Luwin. That being said, the real question then becomes: who sent Benjen? Was he there on his own accord, or was he sent for this "mission" by Mormont (i.e. by Mormont's raven, the true Lord Commander of the NW)?
Your videos inspired me to read 'A Song of Ice and Fire' series.Your content is wonderful.
thank you so much...there is no higher praise than when people tell us that our videos made them want to read George's wonderful books
hint of laughter in the eyes, i believe, was also mentioned with littlefinger
Its never long enough lol i always want it to keep going. Thank y'all for the hard work y'all put into your videos.
I'm soooo glad to see a theory video of you guys again, in a time where everybody is talking about this crappy last season... and even about that the only thing i'm watching are the nigths watch lives (what a great team).... thank you, now, for 23 minutes i can be
truly immersed in george's world again
I want part two NOW! Do not kept us waiting too long it.
You are most likely right about the animousity between Ned and Benjen. It struck me as odd that Benjen was not sitting at the high table himself. Jon may have been seen as a bastard, but Benjen was the true-born brother of the Lord of Winterfell.
The book paints a very different picture of Benjen than the GoT adaptation.
So many good hints that Bronn is Benjen; Cat said he has a wolfish smile, and he’s indulging in women and drink. Love this video
Cat would have recognized Bronn as Benjen. Tyrion would have too.
I really love this theory! It gives real depth to Benjen and his motivations and also ties nicely into your Rhaegar/Lyanna in Winterfell theory (and the common theme of pov characters being played and manipulated into acting against their own self-interest). I've been recently binge-watching your theories and I really have to say I love most of them. I didn't think it was possible for me to find completely new ideas and interpretations on a Song which I haven't encountered yet, so thank you for being true to your word. There is only one reoccurring theme within your interpretations I can't grapple with and that is the existence of gods. I already posted this thoughts in an old video by yours but I doubt you are still checking on videos that go more than a year back and I'd really love to hear your thoughts on this:
I don't know how much you two read of George besides Thrones, but how George deals with religion and gods is pretty consistent through his stories namely that he concentrates on religion in relation to human beings, how they shape their morals, beliefs and actions and the act of creating religion, which he considers a form of storytelling. Also one has to remember that George himself is an atheist who grew up Catholic but lost his faith when going to college.
He has a story called "A Way of Cross and Dragon" which is set in his Sci-Fi A Thousand Worlds universe. It's about an inquisitor for the Catholic Church, who himself has stopped believing his church''s own teaching a long time ago and encounters a newly founded and fastly growing religion worshiping Judas Iskariot. When he finds the founder of the religion this man reveals he himself is not pious at all and he has made up the story of Judas himself. He reveals to be part of a secret order called the "liars" (if I remember correctly) who appearantly have invented most of the great religions in the galaxy and are constantly inventing new religions with stories that are fitting for their respective times. They do this because they believe the universe in itself is meaningless and bleak, which is why the ultimate goal of humanity should be to seek happiness. These stories aka religion are made up by the liars to give people something to believe in and comfort them so they don't have to face to meaningless of life itself and can achieve happiness
My point here is that I find it completely unbelievable for George to give our story real gods. George R.R. Martin throughout his writings mostly presents religion with a negative connotation especially as an institution, which is used to conquer, make people compliant and to manipulate them but at the same time gives room for religion to give comfort on an individual level. Gods being essential factors within the story would go against everything George believes in and normally writes about. The story is about the human heart in conflict with itself not supernatural entities.
Furthermore, I can't believe the main plot to be simply a fight between the "evil" Great Other and the "good" Lord of the Light. R'hllor followers and priests are maybe the most extreme religious zealots within the story and it just wouldn't fit for their faith to be actually right and their followers to be the "good guys" of the story. While there is definitely a dichotomy between the Old Gods/The Great Other as ice and R'hllor/The Lord of the Light as fire I don't think one will be morally superior to the other especially as the poem by Robert Frost on which the name of the series is based on deals with the destruction of humanity both by ice and fire. Both can lead to death. In addition to this, naming the White Walkers the Great "Others" makes me think of the anthropological concept of the other, which says that human societies while forming an identity, an "us" simultaneously always create a "them", an "other" from which they want to distance themselves from. It would be typical George for the Great Other to not be inherently evil at all, but simply different. And who is the "other" of human society within Westeros but the children of the forrests?
So my question is what makes you think gods exist and play a role in the story?
I'd love to hear your thoughts on this and keep up with what you're doing!
Can’t wait for part 2!
I can't wait for STANNIS PART 2
My Question: Where are the other Starks? Ned doesn't have any cousins, second cousins, Great Uncles, etc.?
All the other family seem to have them, Lannisters, Freys, etc.
Great video. It never struck me, until you pointed it out, that Benjen was dressed an awful lot like Waymar Royce. It can't be coincidence. I am less clear why he would lure Jon to the Wall and then desert and leave Jon to fend for himself...
"It should've been you". I don't think even Tywin would say that to Tyrion.
Outlaw Of Gor You’re right!!!! He would of probably just arranged a gang Rape of sorts........ definitely wouldn’t say those cruel words
Uhh yes he would. If he could have had Tyrion die instead of Joanna, do you think he'd have had a second thought?
He'd say it. He'd just make a whole speech out of it😂💯
It was cold no doubt.
But come on. We are talking about Tywin Lannister here. He would most certainly say something that cold to Tyrion on just about any given Sunday.
@@zacharyriley4122 any day that ends with Y. 💯😂
I so needed this right now.
Oh yes.
Wasn't there a line where someone remembered how Ned and benjen would get drunk and talk about settling the gift ?
Wow now I have to rethink benjen stark now great video as always
Yo, the only videos keeping the game of throne fandom alive
Seems like there's a big difference between the books and show with the relationships. So many differences with most things.
Tbh it’s probably a joint setup between Ben jen and Ned .... Ned wants the only person that knows Jon’s secret to watch him, by Ned can’t .... also tell a young man he can’t do something and watch him try like hell to prove you wrong
You two are true MASTERS when it comes to crafting incredibly interesting and original ASOIAF theories. I mean i knew that Catelyn Tully was trash when i first read the books but once i started watching your videos i actually began to despise her character and I like Roose Bolton way more now, for obvious reasons. This video was a very pleasant surprise, i never thought that Benjen actually hated Jon, but after watching this video all i can say is... Jon never had a chance, Ned failed him when you think about it.
it seems entirely possible that Ned was completely blindsided...he didn't see the Jon going to the Wall thing coming at all...when Luwin brought it up in AGOT Catelyn II, Ned was literally shocked
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand Poor Ned. Everyone was against him.
This is a really interesting take and I never would have thought about it while reading the books
Benjen and Ned NEVER speak with one another during Benjen's Winterfell visit. too strange
I love you guys!!!!! You articulate this stuff so well and voices compliment each other... Great work !!!
"A very quiet wolf."
Have to get that music as my ringtone.
hahaha...we loved it when we heard it...we weren't even sure if it matched our channel, but when we heard it we couldn't convince ourselves to buy any song but that one
"Bastards grow up faster than other children."
Wise words from Maester Luwin? Or is a grey rat trying to cover up the truth that Jon is older than Robb?
Sorry if you mention it further along in the video. I'm at 5:47 and wanted to mention it before I forgot.
Ah yes asoiaf a nice break from got
So welcome
I truly enjoy your channel and I appreciate the amount of research you put into your theories.
Heard another theory similar to this one, but instead they stated that he felt guilty after the war caused because he knew about his sister (and possibly if she was the laughing tree knight). Since they were probably very close siblings, he kept her secret, and by the time he heard word about the war it was too late and took the black out of guilt.
Great video. Also, didn’t GRRM rule out Benjen being “Coldhands” when asked about it? That would also lend credence to the theory.
His editor asked him, and he said no. Also, Bran would have recognized him.
Could benjen be disguised as a different character in later books? Sort of like Arthur Dayne disguised as Mance Rayder?
I thought to myself Bronn fit the description, and age then I thought about it a second time and realized Catelyn met Bronn and Benjen that makes no sense. But I think you're on to something.
Are you suggesting Benjen broke his vows?
Theories be off the charts they make me think greatly
Awesome video, I can't wait for part 2.
Love your live stream but your theory videos are always so intriguing
This was amazing OMG I love this theories against mainstream r/asoiaf meta.
I'm glad book theories are back, can't wait for the show to be over to have more of this.
Have you read Joe Magician theory that Benjen may have been kidnap by the WW thinking he was Jon? is a good theory as well.
Just seems odd to leave this information out for 4 straight books and counting
Can't remember who suggested me this channel...but now, more than ever I'm in need of some true love for this world.
Season 8 is underwhelming to say the least...and I'm afraid that's the only finale I've ever get after more than 20 years waiting.
Great and interesting video!
I woke up this morning thinking how much I missed everyone’s book theories with all the show nonsense going on ❤️ Green Hand always delivers!
we do what we can My Lady
It's pretty sad for Jon really, having Benjen lure him to the wall only to turn his back on him once he's there. Not the best character quality imo.
I came to similar conclusions a while back. Ned was at war so Benjen had to be lord of winterfell. When the war ended Ned went searching for Lyanna.
Now if we examine the Bael the bard story, Bael hid the stark girl in the crypts while the lord stark went searching for them, she gave birth in the tower of winterfell and Bael fled north. The lord stark returned to find his daughter and grandchild at winterfell. I think the same is true for Lyanna, she was in winterfell hiding while Ned was searching the 7 kingdoms for her, after giving up he returned and found her in the tower with a son. The reason Benjen was forced to take the black was because he hid Lyanna from Ned until Jon was born.
The rest of the tower of joy story can then be accounted for in the tower of winterfell, the reason for its damage, the bodies that were never found were never killed but went north to the wall with Benjen. The sword was returned to the Daynes house by Ned and while Ned was in Dorne Cat turned up at winterfell.
This also means that Rhaegar might not be dead, he might also be north of the wall with his kingsguard still in tow. Mance Rhaegar.
Evil Loch Ness and what do you make of Ned‘s feverdream considering „promise me“ directly AFTER facing the 3 Kingsguard in Dorne?
@@michelmorio8026I have had many fever dreams in my time, they rarely replicate reality in any way.
I do think that Rhaegar is dead but I love your insight on the tower. If it is truly the Broken Tower at Winterfell, then Bran finding the Lannister twins at the same tower has a beautiful symmetry. That would be very much like George.
And Bran also flees North!
Evil Loch Ness yeah, but are they also haunting you through 15+ years
@@michelmorio8026 Well I actually have a great example from my dream last night.
Context, I went to uni 15 years ago in a town 400 miles away and ended up dropping out because I stopped going to lessons where I wasn't learning anything new.
The dream this was all the same except the place I was at was unfamiliar and the people around me were people I work with today and have only known for a few years.
One of the things I remember(its kind of fading away as dreams do) was that someone was trying to steal from me, I had already basically dropped out but was staying at the halls of residence and when I realized I couldn't protect myself from the thefts I headed back to my hometown.
The details were mostly the same but some things had changed because that is how dreams are.
I will also point out Neds dreams in the black cells seem to be directed by Littlefinger using a glass candle or something like it, and could be how Lf gathers intel.
Always coming at things from a different unique angle!! Can't wait to see the follow up 💚
Hmmm, I have another idea on why he Benjen pretends to not know what being a bastard means. It's out of character, so the writer can set the rules for his world to the reader as clear as he can. That this separation of Jon and the others usually doesn't happen. That Catelyn doesn't like Jon but Ned is completely okay with him.
I also think Benjen never spoke to the maester and never wanted Jon to come to the wall. Jon sent to the wall is purely the maester's doing. This falls in line with the theory that the maester used to be at Riverrun. He is loyal to Catelyn, not Ned. She wanted Jon gone.
Benjen really didn't wan't Jon to come along right from the start. Jon probably reminds of Ned and why he was sent to the wall.
I was kind of on the fence when video started but then it really does come together. George is a fucking genius, everyone pictures Benjen in a completely different light. He is so subtle, he will put something right out there in your face and you cant see it.
I think the manner with which George gives us information is one of the things that makes his writing so genius...he gives us this information about Benjen really early on, at a time where we're still overwhelmed by the number of characters we're introduced to in such a short period of time, and we never think about it ever again because we assume the Starks are all good...it takes going back and looking at it really critically to notice these types of things...m'lady and I were listening to the books a few months ago and we listened to Benjen's conversation with Jon and were mind blown by what was happening there
You guys are the absolute best. My only problem is that I have to wait for the next part ☺️
Finally! I've been waiting for this for a looong time. I can't wait for the show to end so we can go back to weekly book videos. Good work as always :D
I love your videos and even though other people shout your theories down I want your reading of things to be true. thanks for an insightful and thought provoking video.
Excellent vid!! Thank you for putting the work & time you into it ♡
For a while I've thought about the possibility that Benjen deserted the Night's Watch. In Jon's first chapter, three times he makes an allusion to Jon possibly missing out on things if he joined the NW. This seems like bitterness on Benjen's part.
The question is this - if he did actually desert, where and who is he now? I don't think George would just remove him from the story completely, so is he a character we've already met maybe in Essos? I doubt he would stay in Westeros.
There's a small part in A Storm of Swords where Bran remembers King Roberts feast and reciting the names of the forts on the Wall for Benjen.
Benjen laughs and tells him "You know them better than I do, Bran. Perhaps you should be First Ranger. I'll stay here in your place."
Will there ever be a follow up video to this one?
The uncomfortable position of having to answer to his nephew for the rest of his life? You mean like every other uncle of lordlings in the entire story? Not to use this as evidence against your concepts, but the circumstances you describe are incredibly common in Westeros due to Agnatic Primogeniture succession.
Oh, Waymar and company were attacked after seeing Craster. So we're Mormont and company at fist of first men. Yet Benjen was tracking Waymar, but Craster hadn't seen him in years???
wait for part two m'lady
The Order of the Green Hand okay I wasn’t sure if the this is going to have to wait for another day was a Martin reference or like we are working on the theory/video you guys have awesome work totally thought that convo was rogue and odd from the beginning
Dressing to the nine would probably have a subconscious effect of making the Watch seem more dignified and powerful, making Jon that much more likely to join.
You’ve stated in previous videos : “... you probably think we’re crazy ... “ (which is true - for about ten minutes) BUT, ;) I find myself agreeing with most of your theories. And they’re all delicious food for thought. So happy to see you’re back on book theory videos !
You are awsome guys especially after dumb dumber shiting george’s saga you come like a savior thanks a lot!
Okay but Ben Jens oaths ‘separate’ him from his family. He can’t treat Jon as a nephew without treating him better than other recruits. Who steps up for them to help them adjust? Nobody, until Jon did apparently.
Ben wasn’t responsible for the trainees, he was being what he thought would make an effective role model, not a mentor and not an Uncle. He only gets to be an Uncle on the occasions when he gets sent to Winterfell, like a brief holiday from being a Nights Watch man. Jon saw his uncle with his ‘work face’ on and felt shunned, which isn’t an unreasonable reaction for Jon to have.
Your videos are at another level than other fan sites.
I think your theory is very interesting. Unlike most people I have followed the show, and have just only started to read the books. In the show, it is presented like Benjen is the favorite uncle who is away most of the time, but he's someone who the kids, particularly, Jon, really enjoys being around. I've never thought of his character as being manipulative or the fact of him being somewhat jealous of Jon. Good video.
Nice return to the books!
Thanks guys well done!
You know what’s a satisfying pallet cleanser from all the trash on tv right now?
A well thought out book theory that has the right amount of evidence to be one of the many nuggets George left for us to quibble about
Finally! Been missing these! 😍
Awesome video! I need the part 2 D:
Wow! You completely changed my ideas of Benjen! I have some Maester suspicions and kinda thought it was Luwin siding with Cat, and thus lying about what Benjen may have said to him, but missed the fact that as far as we know Ben didn't talk to Ned much at all while at home. I'd also figured it was guilt over his father and brother's death, keeping Lyanna's affair a secret, that led him to the Wall, but Ned sending him is entirely possible. Especially when you pointed out how he really seemed to like the finer things in life, and the circular conversation he led Jon on, which was odd but I wasn't sure how to interpret. Great job on Benjen!! Hope to see more theories on his desertion!
Tricked? Don’t like that term. But I definitely think Benjen was subtlety and not so subtlety influencing Jon for the same purposes. I think it’s more likely that Benjen was acting as an agent for Mormont and/or Bloodraven to get Jon to the wall. Once that was accomplished, Benjen isolated himself out of guilt to the hard truths Jon would learn quickly about his new circumstances. And, if Benjen did desert, it’s more likely that he was making his way to Bloodraven.
Jarret Mcmillan that’s what I thought too, more likely Jon is Rhaegars and Lyannas, Benjen had some talkings with Aemon (Prince that was promised) and/or crossed the children or some agent of Bloodraven on a ranging and wanted Jon where he has to been, than this family turmoil personal revenge theory
@@michelmorio8026 Maester Aemon gave no indication that he knew.
neriumsuitedher i didn‘t say Aemon knew; but when Benjen knew of Jon parentage (if R+L) and from Aemon of the PtwP... he can put that together of his own
Think you're heavily leaning one way and theyre leaning the other. Keep an open mind, character may not what they seem. You dont have to have such a strong emotional reaction to this.
I think its an interesting idea to play with, definitely different and bot cynical but good nonetheless.
@@michelmorio8026 how do we know Benjen is an agent of bloodraven?
I like it.... Another fantastic theory...
You guys are part of the reason why I started reading the books... Awesome job yet again...
When it comes to Benjen, I always wondered more about what happened to him beyond the wall than the reason he went to the Wall in the first place. But I think you have it right, he was sent there for a reason, and Lyanna has to be part of that reason.
"The moron playing the high harp". Clearly you slipped in some "Why Rhaeger and Lyanna suck" into this video, and I love it.
Awesome video.
I love these parts, that seems so insignificant to the storyline, but actually might be the main story line.