Weren't the Dronish people extremely lenient people as to who they were relations with wether its a marriage or just lovers..? Perfect example is Oberyn and his old lady.. But also all his bastard kids which he genuinely cared for. Maybe all was well for Rhaegar to pursue Lyanna to fulfill the prophecy
There are some very good reasons why this is a perfectly normal and even novel thing for rhaegar to do. First let's start with elia, she is a Martel, sister to oberyn whom she loved and idolized, oberyn who had many bastards and more lovers. He loved all his bastards and made sure they were well taken care of. If he was such a huge influence on elia why wouldn't she think it was normal for her husband (a targaryan who historically practice polyamory as well) to take another lover and father another child? Especially when it has been announced that having another child will surely kill her. The dragon must have three heads after all. And rhaegar was obsessed with this prophecy and speaks about it at baby aegons birth "his is a song of ice and fire" he tells elia. She would have known how much this meant to rhaegar and their match being political not one of love she would have no reason not to allow him to father a bastard to fulfill his prophecy. As a final note on this point in every description of the tourney at harrenhal not a single one notes elias reaction to Lyana being crowned by rhaegar. Not one. We get notes about the starks reaction, aeres reaction even tywins reaction but not elias. Why not? Because she didn't react in a notable way because she was okay with it. Now let's talk more about their marriage their marriage was set up by elias mother whose name I forget, but elia was a sickly ailing girl who against odds was chosen after the baratheons failed to find a suitable valyrian wife for rhaegar in essos (this is also the trip that would kill Roberts parents). She was an important political chess piece. She knew it all too well so did doran Martel. She could not lose her place as rhaegars wife and have her children delegitimized. So housing the paramour of rhaegar and their newborn in dorne on a major path was a very good way to ensure rhaegar could have easy access but allow the dornish to essentially use her as a hostage to ensure elias political position was maintained. This also explains why the dornish are targaryan loyalists. But they dragged their feet during the rebellion coming to the targaryans aid you might say. Well that is because they wanted rhaegar on the throne but currently the mad king still sat it and losing soldiers for a king you know is terrible isn't the best idea. Now these aren't my own ideas, in deep geek has a good video series explaining this. And that being said im not subscribing to one theory over the other just that there is a good answer to many of the questions posed in this video, are they the right answers? Well we'll just have to wait to find out.
I just noticed this: in another video you mentioned that Dawn could be Lightbringer, wich was forged by plunging it into Nissa Nissa's heart. So I find it funny that GRRM used the words "forged from the heart of a fallen star" to describe Dawn.
This channel is the an absolute masterpiece of binge channels... I love drinking while listening to your theories and argumentations.... Big thumbs up, you've won a subscriber P.S. The best part is that you are refering to the books and not to the shitty show
The “ shitty show” is the only reason you and 99.999999% of the fans know of these books. George is not so,e “ Uber good “ writer. Like fans of the show think. He’s pretty much hated by other fantasy writers for being such a tool when it comes to deadlines, thus making it harder for them to get deals. Worse he has so many continuity errors in his books, that he endorses some scrubs with a website to be his “ lore masters “ because he spews so many words on the pages he can’t keep track of them, and lastly, he violates rule one of novels. KEEP THE MAIN CAST TO 5 characters, 7 at the most. Why is this a rule ? Because it’s tough to read and keep track of more than 7.... he has hundreds of “ main characters “. And no one can keep track of them WITHOUT THE SHOW. Once u see it on the screen ( and even that cast is probably 20% of the cast in the books ) you can follow it.
But if Varys and Ned were acquainted like you guys theorize, wouldn't the conversations between them in the cellars in kingslanding be a bit different ?
I was recently rereading the same and asking the same question : it can hold up, since previous interactions of the two of them would have been very limited. Varys says he didn’t know if he can trust Ned - and just because Ned i honourable, it does make him less likely to keep secrets that don’t obviously benefit his family. So them working on saving Lyanna’s child 15 + yrs ago, that wouldnt actually mean Ned would join any other scheme Varys needs him to join in the year 298?
@@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195 That makes sense. It also makes sense to say that George purposely omits Ned's thoughts about stuff we want to know. However..... It's a massive stretch to have us believe that they wouldn't speak the truth at that point. They were all alone, and Varys was speaking treason. They have no reason to hold back. Also, if R+L=A, Ned would have asked how he was. Ned never thinks about the concept of Aegon when talking to Varys or anyone else. Varys wanted war between Stark and Lannister, just not right then. He doesn't give a shit about Ned. Varys has never, not once, been about the Realm or children. This is someone who is good ripping the tongues of slaves out of their mouths, so you'll forgive me for not finding value in him.
@jacobenke7936 Unfortunately, I think the answer simply is that George had to avoid certain topics in order not to spoil elements of his story. As unsatisfactory as that might be I think it certainly has to be true regarding certain topics, though we don't know which Unless Varys used a proxy to contact Ned and smuggle Aegon out and protect him. So maybe Varys knows but Ned doesn't
My mind implodes following all of this and I consider myself a pretty big fan of the books but clearly there are different levels of fandom. I love how detailed and dedicated you both are!
I've only watched the shows. And what I understand from this video is, the show sucks I should really read the books to understand wtf you guys are talking about. Be right back.
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand George RR Martin and Dave and Dan Weiss had a private parting of the ways after joffrey's wedding that's the last script George RR Martin wrote but they made many many changes to it he did not write another episode for them againeverything Dave and Dan Weiss say about the song of ice and fire series and their relationship to it is BS and everything George RR Martin says about his relationship to Dave and Dan Weiss is him being super super polite
Just buy and listen to the audio books. Its faster, you can do it while your doing other things. Also, the audio books is hilarious when the voice actor make Arya and Daenerys sound like an Irish man.
I had a theory you guys were really GRRM and his wife revealing everything because you were sick of everyone being so far off. And then you showed your picture....lol. Im just soaking it all in. Thanks so much for sharing this!
Y’all inspired me to reread the books. Your theories are wild and really delve deep. I still hope Lyanna is Jon’s mother because the story of Ned raising his nephew as his own son and sacrificing his own reputation & personal relationships to do so is a beautiful one, in my opinion.
I really enjoy hearing a different take on things and you guys are awesome. So many fans are locked into R+L=J and other such theories that it sucks the fun out of it. You guys and Preston make it fun to think about something different. Thanks for what you do!
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand Duck is obviously Ashara and Neds bastard he and ned share awkwardness and loyalty to a friend who would be kings the paralells are uncanny ;o
Just wanted to say that I just found you guys and the fact that you use screenshots from The Wire so frequently made me instantly subscribe. Will definitely be watching more.
As a former English major who used to love deep-diving into our assigned texts, I thoroughly appreciate you guys' work! Thank you so much for these videos. I especially thank you for the "watch in this order" playlist. Very helpful. I'd love to see a intellectual death-match between you and "Secrets of the Citadel", my other favorite ASOIAF TH-cam researcher (who happens to be an R+L=J person). I keep going back and forth between your channels: "N+A=J, obviously! No, wait--R+L=J--it is known! But, wait, no...." etc. :)
+Shaun M Thank you so much. That would be fun. She's very nice. I've spoken to her a few times now and she's been great every time and even added us to her featured channels and gave me a few video making tips. And I really appreciate her intellectual honesty she showed by publicly commenting on our videos telling us that she is a firm believer in R+L=J but that we put together an impressive case for Ned and Ashara that really made her think and I really like her work on the historical context of the books and characters and how she simply states what is without cherry picking the facts to support her beliefs
I've listen to each of your non-livestream videos at least 4 times, but rarely ever watched them. I just out them on while I work on something else. Only now did I notice The Wire memes, after you mentioned them in your last livestream :D I don't know the show, but if you two enjoyed it so much, I'm sad to see you've stopped because some people didn't like them This video is the one you bought me for on your theories!
i wish i could transfer all of your knowledge into my brain! you guys do such an outstanding job with your videos. the information you share is worth reading a dozen books. I wish you great fortune in the wars to come! :)
This was great, thanks for the upload. Psyched for part two and the Blood Raven. It's so refreshing to have good fan theory that is based on the text and not influenced by the show. Thanks!
Thank you very much. We try very hard not to be influenced by the show. It is difficult because they change so much that we constantly have to go look up whether things happened in the show and the books or just in the show or just in the books to try and keep it all straight. Enjoy part 2 and our next video should be ready in a few hours so stay tuned
I just found your channel and so far I'm loving it. but I didn't hit the Subscribe button until I noticed the wire quotes!! mixing my favorite drama with my favorite fantasy, nice work! " How my hair look Mike?" ~Snoop
Aaaaand I'm subbed. Great video, insightful, interesting and fun. Plus you can't go wrong with pictures of The Wire. Btw, Bloodraven is one of the most fascinating characters in ASoIaF. He's the closest thing to an actual sorcerer in the story. A thousand eyes and one....
thank you!! we are so happy that people like our videos. we had no idea what we were doing, in terms of making videos, up until like a month ago. we are learning as we go, but are so excited about the responses we've gotten . i totally agree that bloodraven is one of the most fascinating characters. we have had so many debates about him, and finally landed on the fact that he does things, that are sometimes extremely deplorable, but for a greater purpose, a purpose that we cannot even begin to comprehend. we are going to do a bloodraven video soon. thanks again for watching.
FANTASTIC! I really want to see your part two video. Also I'm keen on seeing more info about Bloodraven and Varys! You guys sure know what you are doing. Because I read the books in Finnish so is nice to read in your videos the same text in English!
+Kaisa Immonen thank you so much! We are so glad people enjoy the videos. We try to stick to the text as it is written, because the way I see it, it's already a masterpiece. We have a few other videos in the Mysteries, Myths, and Motives series which touch upon the ideas presented in this video. The bloodraven/varys videos are coming up after we finish the wars to come. There's so much info that it'll likely be multiple videos. :-)
The long night is upon us near the artic circle😀 when the spring comes then the sun will rise again so until then your videos lights up our days (my husband and I)! It's fabulous that you give the credits to Martin who really has updated the fantasy genre! Your videos are the best ones in the TH-cam because you guys go deep in to the Martin's work. Fabulous!! ❤
Frodo Doodle I second this motion. You should also check out The Corner, same universe as The Wire...Bodymore, Murdaland. Based on nonfiction but it's good.
Great stuff you two, I love it! Please don't take offense to me saying this, but it warms my heart to see such detail in tinfoil, which I don't believe to be as such. It makes me miss my work when I did ASOIAF theory, I have VERY similar notions when it came to the Hightowers and maesters, and one of my favorite theories was that of the kingsguard being alive and well, as well as Bael the Bard and the Wolf Maid. My favorite video was that of the significance of Ned's fever dream and his inability to fully recall the faces, the tower itself and the destruction of the tower. It's also very interesting to think of Gerold Hightower as the white bull, and his part played in Lyanna's disappearance is subtle regad to Zeus (long story, but VERY interesting nonetheless). All this myth and legend so beautifully played out in not only George's myth creation, but his subtle clues within the text that mirrors SO much actual myth and legend. And THAT is the detail I see with you two, beautifully, BEAUTIFULLY done! I'm so glad someone stuck to this community and delves into these ideas as I did at one time! Subbed, and thank you, it helps me love the series again, and remind me of how much more there is to learn and love. Even though I won't be in the ASOIAF TH-cam community, I'm glad you two will, thank you and keep it up! You have my support 100%!
Oh, and p.s., my foremost favorite topic was Bloodraven. Particularly in contrast to Loki and Fenrir, the wolf bound in the cave who bit off the hand of Tyr, champion of men (Bran and Jaime. Jaime "bound" Bran in Bloodraven's cave). Bloodraven is amazing and UNBELIEVABLY detailed, mysterious and methodical. I'm one of the crazies that believes he is the LoL, who is a facade of the CotF. I love, LOVE BR! I'd love to see your guys' ideas!
I just had a thought. If you think of the Tower of Joy as a metaphor, it makes sense to think of Winterfell as Ned's Tower of Joy. Which means that Lyanna was at Ned's Tower of Joy AKA Winterfell.
I dont think TOJ ever happened. It was a lie and Lyanna was at Starfall the entire time. Ned's companions who "died" in battle are probably in service to House Dayne now.
Your analyses are top shelf. No one, pun intended, does better work of ASOIAF/GOT. What you have done here is comparable to the novels themselves. Organized and comprehensible...WELL DONE!
I like your narration and use of vast knowledge of the text. The conclusions you draw from the text pieces you cite are huge leaps, however. I'll keep listening.
Thank you...the ToJ scene bothered us from the very first time we read Ned's fever dream...we looked at each other and were like I don't even understand why they fought
The Order of the Green Hand couldn't agree more. the one thing that never made sense to me was that they pretty much all wanted the same thing so why wouldnt they talk about w common sense instead of killing each other? i mean we all know Lyannawasnt kidnapped. well done. This resonated w me. As far as Mance Rayder and Lyana not being there and the rest Im not to sure about that but either way well done.
I think the fans agree. Its time for blood raven. The love triangle of him and possibly Nan and Dunk. Its also time for us to HEAR ABOUT VAL. Love the work you guys do. Keep it up.
thank you so much!!! i really appreciate it. we will be getting into old nan, and bloodraven, very soon. we are almost there. we try to build a narrative around the story so it takes a bit longer than we anticipate, but I promise it's coming soon.
Whatever you do in these vids. They keep us coming back. You do a GREAT job at putting it all together into something that MAKES sense. So many other just repeat what they hear. You guys do a great job in YOUR OWN words that makes it all so wonderful
Thank you...it means a lot to us that people actually notice that the narrative we are painstakingly building makes sense and can bring all of these seemingly unrelated plot-lines together into a cohesive story, and that these are our thoughts, not just something we read somewhere and are trying to claim it as our own...thank you so much...and Val is leading off our next video...and I didn't see your comment before bc she answered it but nice pull with Old Nan and Dunk...I'm not going to say any more because we want to do a video on it but if you're thinking what I think you are, you're the first person I've talked to that seems to see the same thing there that we do
thank you so much! bloodraven is coming soon! the videos take a while to make, and clearly we go through the details painstakingly. haha but i promise it will be soon.
Re watching y'alls videos yet again. It cures the withdraws and it also helps to continue learning the tangled web that has been created in this amazing story.
Who are you guys? Seriously. I really enjoy your analysis, as much as I have listened to and watched this past week since stumbling onto your channel, and I would appreciate a video to introduce ""the elephant in the room" so to speak. Are you guys English majors? Truck drivers reading on the long haul? Or writers since childhood, et cetera? (and did you two meet while doing independent analysis on this series or have you been a team since the beginning, feeding off each other in tandem?) You certainly bring a lot of personal scope into your analysis. Such a video introduction, likely, would not directly increase your authority or devalue it. But it would be of interest to the rest of us who feel awed by the work you have done on this series. Really well done too, it is. [Do you have a Twitter account?]
Thank you very much...that is very nice of you to say...We're just a normal couple that read the books about a year and a half ago and went online to see if anyone else thought what we did, and there was no one, but we thought we were right so we decided to make a couple videos outlining our ideas, not thinking anyone would watch them
Do you have any background in literary criticism? Is it a just hobby? Your analysis is deep. It is a credit to GRRM if this is indeed how he created the story, weaving into it all you have deduced, after being dissatisfied with the genre in the 90s. Are you Fantasy genre aficionados (or what is your general reading genre category)? Your analysis gives me an explanation why it is taking GRRM so long to write the story and why the detail in what seems, on the surface, boring. I am ashamed to admit it, but, I have a new found respect for the author's craft after watching your videos.
Neither of us have any sort of literary backgrounds...when we first started dating years ago, I got her into the show/ told her if she doesn't watch it we couldn't be friends ;)...then she got me the books for Christmas a few years ago, but we were busy and never got around to reading them until 2 summers ago...we had heard from people we worked with that Jon was a secret Targaryen and assumed because they read the books and we hadn't, it was true, so we were reading them under the assumption that he was and got to the knight of the laughing tree story, and then Ned Dayne meeting Arya and decided that we needed to start the books over because Jon being a Targaryen no longer made sense to us...then, when reading the books from the standpoint of Jon being Ned's, a whole bunch of other stuff started popping out at us...we tried telling other people what we thought but no one was buying what we were selling, but we were convinced we figured a bunch of stuff about the books out that no one else did, so like I said earlier we made a couple videos, assuming that no one would watch them...and yes...it takes him so long because of how detailed everything is and the way he so meticulously weaves the plotlines together...his books are practically 1200 page poems in the way he chooses his words with incredible care...we think of it kind of like a 6000 page word puzzle
The thing that stonewalls me, when trying to think out of the box as you two have done in your videos here on your channel, is that the HBO show runners answered "GRRM's question "who is Jon Snow's parents?" So the fable goes, their correct answer is how they won/earned the rights to do the TV show (subtly named for the first book and NOT for the book series). This line of story has always struck me sideways as too... cliché. I am not a meticulous reader so I appreciate the series on one level, which really does not address GRRM's dissatisfaction with cliché Fantasy up 'til the 1990s. Your analysis does do that and I find myself thinking about the story in a whole new light because of it - almost a different story. A Song of Ice & Fire, to me, is the first literary work in the genre because it interweaves not only history and folklore (like Tolkien) but also literary references from other genres into its story. I do still hope you will do an intro video. You have a theory worthy of academic study. medieval-fantasy.pl/5.html Thanks for broadening my mind.
Loved this video, very intersting points and connections. Also have to say i love everyting from The Wire. I live in Baltimore and you may have inspired me to rewatch it as im waiting for the next season of GoT.
The Order of the Greenhand It's a community app. It almost works like Instagram in the sense that people can follow you and you can follow them. But everyone on there is a fan of the series. You can download it on your smartphone. Search game of thrones amino...I added a picture of what the interface looks like as a reference. I'm sure you script your videos...you could use the app to post a written version of your theory and also provide the video links to your TH-cam channel...just a suggestion. I'm on there as well. My username is Shoot the Messenger. I'll follow you if you join for sure! Lol _lh3.googleusercontent.com/aOUfh7FbpfcVSsCSWoQWJtepcQuNX3nEAJOSTO9gVTLwKip4dpd7BKNE6aaqBXagL4nJUOs_
Can we just all admit that the Hightowers are just garbage. Like every noble family reaches to climb the ladder but I swear every time a Hightower makes a move or is even involved in an event, the offending Hightower either fails miserably and the realm suffers or the Hightower is successful and... The realm suffers for it. Screw the Hightowers!
Great stuff guys. I always wondered why Ned didn't take so much as a retinue. No tale, no column. They'd just won a war, and Ned goes to fight the enemy's strongest assets with a bachelor weekend of bros & buds. So sketchy.
everything about that Ned fever dream bothered me...at first, I couldn't even figure out why they were fighting...Ned is the uncle...why would they fight to the death following that conversation? Then didn't even ask what Ned and his companions intentions were...then I asked myself the questions that you just pointed out and why the three kingsguard were outside drawing attention and not in a position to defend anyone...then I decided that can't be what happened because it makes no sense
The Order of the Green Hand the famous set up: "he dreamed an old dream"..."Old Dream" is very specific there. Not "his mind wandered back", or "He found himself back", but "he dreamed an old dream". It's misleading. Are people's reoccurring dreams usually just raw recollection? I think you could argue that an "old" dream is - for most people - complete invention. It's not as if he's generally, constantly haunted by this. This is the only mention of Ned Dreaming this dream in all the books. So it's not a memory that's invading his consciousness. It's funny because this scenario seems far more likely than the accepted interpretation that the Dream was only a flawed, traumatic memory. How much do you buy into as regards the glass candles, and the possibility of using them to influence a person's dreams?
I've only recently came across this wonderful channel. After watching a couple different playlist I'm now working thru the "recommended order playlist" so forgive me if you've address this question elsewhere.. Seeing as how we've now see the tower of joy thru Bran, do you guys still think see Arthur Dane is alive and is mance?
yes...I feel like they were practically shouting from the top of a mountain that the way they showed it on the show isn't accurate...they couldn't even be bothered to have the right number of guys there...George also said that Ned's dream (which is how we see that scene in the books) was a fever dream and shouldn't be taken literally, and the way they showed it on the show was a bastardized version of his dream...I'm still upset that Dawn looked like they picked it up at Toys R Us instead of a 6 foot long glowing white sword
Can I just say I LOVE The Wire references in your videos? Omar and Marlo were my fave characters-- Marlo being the perfect villain in my eyes. Well, that and I love your GoT content as well (obviously).
OMG when I got to "They had a baby to feed and care for" and tried to picture tearing down a stone bldg with swords and horses I started laughing so hard I did an actual spit take with my drink.
haha when we had that conversation one night I too literally laughed out loud when Dave told me it would take like years to tear down a stone building, and then we both were like and what were they doing with the baby while this was going on.
Anyone who is unwilling to consider that Elia was in on and fully okay with what Rheagar and Lyanna are up to is going to get everything wrong, because she very obviously was.
We use all information available. You’re making broad assumptions without looking anything up. George said her brothers were furious. That all but confirms Elia wasn’t ok with Rhaegar abandoning her and publicly humiliating her in front of everyone that matters in Westeros
I understand that these videos are about a month old, but i have to tell you, i truly enjoy your videos and analysis. I'm only a show watcher and haven't picked up the books yet, it seems a daunting task for a semi-slow reader...therefore i thoroughly enjoy your videos that has a lot of quotes and information from the books. Forgive me if you've already done so, i am going through your videos now but i would be very interested in your opinions/analysis of the book only character Patchface and his prophetic songs. I'd love to see any video regarding what you think of all different prophecies?? Being book readers, you see/sense more of that dynamic than a simple show watcher. Thanks and I hope the Order of the Green Hand continues to make more videos (I also enjoy that your videos are a bit longer than most about Game of Thrones), it helps me get through the "off-season" for the show. THANKS AGAIN and keep up the good work! Your take on things is AWESOME!!
+Tracy Whitlock Thank you. We have a few projects to do first but we'd be happy to do a patchface video. His songs are very strange. If I were Stannis that creature wouldn't be anywhere near my daughter
OH MY... Order Of ?The Green Hand....You just made my day about tearing down a building with some swords and horses...RITFLOLWTFOL....Wooo, I needed that~! :D
as someone who grew up working masonry every summer, the part about two guys with a few horses and swords tearing down a stone tower really stuck out to me as physically impossible given the time constraints and the need to care for a newborn baby
+SCHarborGal There's a nice little nugget at the end of the video we released earlier today that you might find interesting. It's called the Wars to Come
Wow just found you, love the vids. I got super excited when you dropped the Arther Dayne is Mance Rayder bit! I actually did a couple of videos way back in July saying the same thing! . Iol I'm kinda known in our lil G.O.T. community for seeing the other side of things. Cool to see someone who shares a view. Great vids keep em coming....
The comment section is borderline overwhelming...especially since we hated on Catelyn...some people are acting like we were talking about their mothers
LOL sounds about right for this community. You should see some of the back & forth's I get for my Mad King is Jon's Dad video's. It drives them nuts other people have different POV's on certain story lines. Love how jazzed up this story gets people, & congrats on so many subs so fast! Just shows they like you they really like you! ( in my best Sally Fields voice)....
+Shawn yetman great show! "Just a gangsta I suppose" that quote is in part 2, perfect line for varys! Haha. Thanks for watching, and for commenting . :)
Yeah, finally someone who also believes that Arthur could be Mance. Ned story dosen't ad up. Why would Ned leave Arthurs body at The Tower of Joy? He did go to Starfall just after burying Arthur. He brought the sword but not the body? Thats disrespectfull. And the Daynes respect Ned. Lord Edric Dayne says that Ned Stark is his namesake. He is called Ned.Obvioustly Ned did something for the Daynes that they are grateful for.
we asked ourselves those exact questions...we talk about it in N+A=J part 2 or 3...it's been a while since we made them but if I had to guess it is in part 2 if my memory serves me right
I don't think Jon is Ned's son. Nor Ashara. I'm sure he is Lyannas and Rhaegars son. There are so many hints in the books. It makes perfectly sense that prophesy obsessed Rhaegar whould want another child that could be the prince(ess) that was promised. He couldn't have more children with Elia, but the Dragon must have three heads. And he needed another child. Who better to be the mother of that child than a warging Stark? They have special genes just like the valyrians.Jon's personality is just like Rhaegars. And also it's cannon in the tv-show. But I wonder if Dany is Asharas daugther. She could be in the books. She looks just like Asharas daughter would have looked, according to Barristan. If Ashara got pregnant, Aerys could be the father. He was known to sleep with the women of the court. And with Arthur Dayne sent away to guard the Tower of joy, he wouldn't be here to protect her against rape from Aerys. That would make Dany a bastard. If Ned came to Starfall with baby Jon, Son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, he would find baby Dany hidden there. Another Targaryen baby. They could help eath other. Keeping each others secrets. Let the rumor spread about Ashara and Ned havind a child, as it would protect both the children. I don't think Ned and Ashara ever had a relationship. To me it seemed like it was his brother Brandon who had a relationship with Ashara. Ned only danced with her after his fliting older brother told her too. Barristan definently doesn't think Ned ever dishonoured Ashara. But he thinks someone did. Barristan respects and likes Ned Stark. He wouldn't if Ned was the one who slept and had a realtionsship with the woman he loved, Ashara Dayne. We definently know that something about Danys past isn't right. The house with the red door wasn't in bravos as she thinks.
The hints in the story indicate that Rhaegar and Lyanna had a child...it doesn't mean it's Jon...Jon is not like Rhaegar...he is exactly like Ned in every way shape and form, right down to being a literal clone of him physically...Aerys couldn't be the father because Ashara never went back to KL after the Tourney...she went to Dragonstone with Elia where Elia gave birth to her son Aegon....and Barristan Selmy wouldn't begrudge Ned for falling in love with a girl that loved him back, even if Barristan loved her too...he never told her...he never made a move...why would he begrudge Ned? Maybe be a little jealous of him, but Harrenhal was 17 years before the books started, and Ashara had been "dead" for 15 years...Ned is an honorable guy...Honorable guys tend to like other honorable guys in this story...and if Dany isn't who they say she is how exactly did they trick her 9 year old brother (Viserys) that he had a baby sister that he didn't have? the house with the read door with all the servants is likely the Sealord of Braavos' palace...Arya never goes near it and he is said to be a lover of exotic animals, which indicates to me that he must have a way of keeping them alive in winter so he most likely has a huge glass garden in which there could very well be a lemon tree
No the house with the red door can't be the Sealords Palace. Not warm enough. Also Bravos is cold, wet and smells like fish. Not a place you run on a field of grass barefoot. And yes Jon Snow is an honorable melancolic kid. Who is also a good fighter. Just like Rhaegar. I agree that he also resemblance Ned aka the stark side. His is of both ice and fire. If Dany is Aerys daughter she would still be Vicerys sister. Dany could also be the daughter of Rhaella and Lewyn Martell, as he is said to have had a secret paramour.
And how can you believe that FAegon is Rhaegars son? Because he looks Targaryen and acts like him? Many with valyrian blood resemblance each other. Its called imbreeding. Varys and Illyrio didn't support Rhaegar, and they don't support his sister Dany nor their father Aerys. Also Varys dosn't fight for the realm. He fights for himself. He even says Kevan had done a great job ruling, before he kills him. It would be better fr the realm if he hadn't made Aerys more mad, if he had supported Rhagars attempt to take the throne from his father, if he had supported the peacefull rule of Robert B. He could have avoided war more than one time. But he have spent all of his life in order to place a child on the throne. Thats not for the realm! Because the child is most like someone close to him. I'm guessing FAegon is Illyrios son by his last wife Sera. Illyrio clearly likes the boy and have nicely boys clothing in his house, even though he supposedly don't have children. Illyrio have no reason to support Aegon if he was Rhaegars son. Illyrio says its for financial reasons, but Tyrion knowns he is lying. As we know the Blackfyre female line is still alive and Sera could be a blackfyre. And maybe a relative of Varys as they both came from Lys and ended up befriending Illyrio. If Varys, and Sera, is a blackfyre it would explain why Varys was sold and got his balls cut off. Theres is power in a kings blood. Or just in Targ/blackfyre blood. Varys even shaves his head. Like Egg does. But the biggest reason I think Aegon is a Blackyre, except that GRRM has written too much about them for it not to be relevant, is that FAegon have the Golden Company. The broke their contract for him. They would never do it if they didn't know he was a Blackfyre.
Hello, Mr. and Mrs. Green Hand. This is my first comment on the first video of yours I'm watching. Love the presentation and how you share in the dispensation of the information. So this Jon as the prince that was promised and the tower of joy thing was kind of off for me when I first read the books. And even as others in the world of fandom of ice and fire began to lean more heavily on that theory, I still had my doubts. Now, you're telling me that I may have been obscurely right? Oh you have got my attention now. Also I have picked up on how GRR repeats or revisits certain and specific historic events. I had taken note of the Bael the Bard story when I first read it, but only looked at it as just knitting out more of how heavily the Starks are woven into the lore. So, now, with you bringing in this Ashara Dane thing and connecting it to Jon Connington and Young Griff, I'm getting a better understanding of the how and why R. Martin would just kind of throw this plot line in four or so books into the series with nary a substantial mention of them. If you are right, now I know. Ultimately if the Tower of Joy was a mish mash of various memories that are only tied together based on the time in his life, in which they all came about, and if you're saying Rheagar and Lyanna were in the crypts the whole time, then when Ned did finally come home, is where he found her literally on her death bed? Or is there more you haven't shared yet? So does that mean, Rheagar died on the Trident or did he leave from Winterfell north, as some say, to somehow become Mance Rayder, the King beyond the wall? Man this is some heavily intricately constructed stuff - - Wow, I"m blown away! So after answering my questions, yes, please do a video on Bloodraven, as I think it would go a long way towards shedding more light on what R. Martin is up to with this whole shebang. As of the close of season 6, I've been thinking more and more about how it it a good number of characters from the distant past of westeros, mixed in with the more 'present day' ones, are working to restore some balance, to right some wrong and of course, ultimately stop the long night from coming again.
hello! i like the Mr. and Mrs. Greenhand, haha. first, thanks so much for watching the video. if this is the first video of ours you have watched, then if you have any time, a lot of the things we allude to in this video are explained in (what could be considered excruciating) detail in some of our other videos. we too had our doubts about the tower of joy, and the whole R+L=J thing just didn't add up for us. So yes, we believe that your initial assessment was more than obscurely right. :) the whole bael the bard thing got past me the first time i read it, but then i was looking through the books again and im like DAVE YOU HAVE TO READ THIS AGAIN! in regards to Ashara, we believe that Ned actually married her at White Harbor, but was then forced to marry Catelyn Tully by Hoster in exchange for Tully aid, which was absolutely necessary for the rebels come outta the whole thing alive. We just released a video which articulates this (its called Mysteries, Myths, and Motives: Ned's Honor). Anyway, in an effort to protect both Lyanna's son with Rhaegar, whom we believe is Aegon, and Jon (from any future blowback from the Tully's), Ashara agrees to take Lyanna's baby and leave Jon with Ned. Jon pulled a similar maneuver with Gilly, when he swaps out Mance Rayder's baby with Gilly to save him from Melisandre's fires. We think that Ned treated with the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy, at which point he was informed that he could find his sister back at Winterfell, about to give birth. We have a theory on how they got back and forth (given the fact that they couldn't go through the neck, but we'll do a video on that soon). Anyway, we do believe that Rhaegar died at the Trident, if not he's the biggest scumbag ever! haha We believe that Mance Rayder is actually Arthur Dayne. This is coming up in our next video. Then we plan on doing the whole Bloodraven, Shiera Seastar, Varys video series. Thanks again for watching and for the comment.
Oh, you hands are very welcome, and let me say; thank you for the care, passion and enthusiasm, you infuse into your videoes. In truth, I have seen probaly, at least two other videos you hands have posted, one of which was the 'mysteries and motivations...', which I found wonderfully delightful and articulated. These are the types of things I really gravitate towards, in terms of the books; I can re-read the books, but, I know good people, hands, like yourselves are already out there with analysis and evaluations that can answer the questions I have, especially related to the more obscure or soft-peddled subplots of this monstrously epic series. And it's funny to note that while Jon literally know nuthin' of the other half of his lineage, actually commits the exact same act to save a baby's life, as his father did, 17 or so years before. Talk about irony. At this point I'm way more excited for the next book, than the TV show, because the books are so much more heavily textured and layered, which make them way more interesting. Suffice it to say; I'm now a subscriber, and will be pouring through many other of your videoes, in the days and weeks to come. Thanks again for all your hard work and meticulous detail, take care and beware the long night.
Thank you so much...we really do put a lot of effort into these and you have no idea how motivating it is for us to receive comments such as yours. And yes...winter is coming and we're ready
I definitely agree that there are pieces out of place with the juggling of baby, horse, sword, sister's corpse, tearing down tower, etc. I also definitely agree that the Howland Reed/Ned Stark/Sir Arthur Dayne situation was different from what we saw in the series. Perhaps a conversation where Reed helped Ned convince Dayne to let Ned take the child.
+Mike Bickert Thanks for watching. We put a little nugget of our Bloodraven theory in the video we released earlier today but there's a lot more to come
the most underrated youtube channel on the topic..Kinda sad when someone like Alt Shift x has so many followers when it's just so basic and bland, totally uninspiring. Compared to an in-depth analysts of this caliber like what you bunch do!
Thank you so much...he irritates me...he has no original content at all...he just poaches other people's ideas, claims all theories "belong to the community" and says "there is a theory that says...." and gets 500k views...he stole some of our ideas last week that really made me mad...he even copied my joke
He is ridiculous man! I completely agree, he recycles the same theories that've been floating around for YEARS. AND MISSES OUT on some KEY aspects of the theories to top it off! I watch your channel and others like yours because I want to learn something NEW, something I don't already know about A Song Of Ice And Fire and the Universe it takes place in. I originally thought AltShiftX was just for the show and that's why he missed out on some key aspects of some theories but that just isn't the case, he just isn't a quality channel to tune into. That's my two cents on that. His new Alt Schwift X channel is even worse. My lord, he sounds drunk as hell while making those videos.
Completely agree! Thank you so much for the kind words and for feeling our frustration. Dave had to restrain me when I saw his tormund video and that he was partaking in the bullying of one of our fans. But thanks it means a lot to us. This is lady green hand now if you couldn't tell. :-)
+The Order of the Green Hand lol shouldn't Ser Green Hands response be 'Pretty hot? Prepare to die scum for this is the fairest maiden in the land!' all I know is if I wholeheartedly agree with 'pretty hot' in reference to my girlfriend, I'd be in big trouble :) not that I'm ever not hahaha
I feel that a lot of these videos follow the pattern of "here's a slight textual ambiguity, wouldn't it be cool if...", whereas the claims made generally require a lot more evidence than is actually provided. George laces his work with plots and conspiracies, but tends to provide firmer evidence. Discounting rare nuggets of insight [Ned's fever dream] because they dont fit these theories seems....limited scholarship. For example, the motif of blue flowers ties Jon Snow heavily to Lyanna, and the rusty iron dragon and mummer's dragon ties Aegon heavily to House Blackfyre. These are the substantial breadcrumbs that should be harnessed, rather than not-actually-incongruent descriptions. An excellent example would be Ned's respect for Arthur Dayne, which you imply is incompatible with Ned having fought/killed him. This seems absurd, as in war, who you fight has essentially no relation to who you respect, and the recurring theme of the Kingsguard is of good men sworn in the service of limited rulers and flawed vows. George RR Martin was a conscientious objector, and a large portion of his series rests on the absurdity and unforseen consequences of war. The ambiguity implies that Ned didn't kill Arthur in a straight up duel, and to be honest, the tv show gives a prety plausible explanation for how it all went down. As for the lack of strategy: the Targaryen cause was lost, and if the Kingsguard holed up in their tower, they would be easily starved or sniped. Their deaths were a death by cop necessitated by their dead prince's orders, and an nwillingness to bend the knee to an Usurper who killed their Liege.
We don't find the fact that Ned and Arthur were enemies in war to be incompatible with Ned respecting him...we find the story about Arthur helping to kidnap his sister and fighting him to the death to prevent Ned from bringing his sister home incompatible with the respect Ned has for him...we also think the story that people think is true is impossible because Arthur's older brother named his heir after Ned...if Ned killed Arthur and scorned Ashara, resulting in her suicide, why would the Lord of Starfall be named after him? why does the Mummer's (Varys') Dragon have to be a Blackfyre? and we discount the details of Ned's fever dream, because GRRM himself said to...he said that we got that information through a dream, and a fever dream at that, and dreams are not always literal when asked about it...
OP uo have a pretty good voice for narration. Unlike some of the people making these Game of Thrones video things. have heard audio books and you have a voice sfor that. When i started listening in the middle of one of your videos i actually thought it was an audio book.
AEGON IS EITHER A BLACKFYRE OR BRANDON STARKS SON NED WOULD NEVER CHEAT OR BREAK HIS WORD ..... YOU THINKING R+L=J IS FALSE FEELS LIKE THE FANS WAITING LADY STONEHEART TO MAKE AN APPEARANCE IN THE SHOW...YEAH NOT GONNA HAPPEN
deusredeemer So true .While it's a cool theory and thought experiment its reaching into the land of tin foil hats and denial of the TRUTH(R+L=J).If this series was as popular as it is now in the days of NO SOCIAL MEDIA,TH-cam,AND REDDIT you wouldn't have people communicating all the clues and FORESHADOWING of R+L=J therefore you woudnt have people in denial about it saying it's too obvious. If R+L=J is somehow revealed to be wrong all it would say is that GRR MARTIN changed his mind at the last minute to throw in some twist (M NIGHT SHAYLMAN STYLE)for no reason.Its ok that R+L=J it does not have to be some complicated OVERREACHING EXPLANATION to be good .Same goes for Young Griff if you read into it you start to see the clues and FORESHADOWING that he is a BLACKFYRE .Which is actually way better then him being A REAL Targaryn. Its truly going to be great when WINDS OF WINTER is out and CEMENTS R+L=J.
Dorne is the best place for lyanna to be hidden, its hard to traverse and its in the center of one of their best alloances cuz marraige, not to mention “cheating” is a very 2000’s relationship take, dornish encourage polygamy
Hmm i dabbled in this theory quite a bit but i recently swapped to a different theory about varys being a descendent of daemon blackfyre and lady mysaria, the mistress of whisperers who rivaled bloodravens skill. The main thing that drove me to this is that i do not believe the golden company would ever help a targaryen, the sole purpose they were founded was to overthrow the targaryens and go back to Westeros. Which makes me think young griff is a blackfyre.
Well , the current Golden Company do not strive to achieve the same goals it used to when it was found , at present they are ready to do anything if victory is ensured and the payment is enough ( although there's a karma that The Golden Company has never won in Westeros but that's a different matter )
@@mahathirahmad559 I disagree, a lot of the Golden Company are descendants of exiled Westerosi who were against the Targaryens, and feuds carry on through generations. I mean the Golden Company still travels around with Bittersteels skull.
Many of the sellswords under Golden Company lie of their actual bloodlines as there is no way to prove them wrong ( Tyrion , ADWD ) and have golden company displayed any motive to pursue their original goals yet? They haven't. Regardless of Aegon's identity , the sellswords and even high ranking members believe that Aegon is a Targaryen. Does Harry Strickland seem someone who would devote himself for an old cause ? No , its gold and victory whats matters. Most of the points of Aegon as a Blackfyre theory lies on speculation and there is no solid evidence regarding it. Even the "Mummer's Dragon" can be explained in several other days.
There is no solid evidence that Aegon is a Targaryen either, thats what allows theories to be crafted. Id say theres more evidence that Aegon isnt a "real" Targaryen than not. Why would Varys not save Rhaenys as well? Strickland didn't want to go East to help Daenerys, and was more than ready to head West without her. I mean the Golden Company's saying is, " beneath the gold, the bitter steel," they obviously hold bittersteel in high esteem and will still value his ideals. The sellswords in the Golden Company are going to do whatever the high ranking members tell them, and theres no way to know that they are all under the impression Aegon is a Targaryen. If Aegon isnt a real Targaryen id doubt that he would know or even Connington. Now this is all speculation because if there was any solid evidence on who Aegon is there would be no debate.
Well , this Aegon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's child not Rhaegar and Elia's. Varys didn't save either Rhaenys or Aegon ( R+E ) becoz he couldn't , they are dead. It is known. Harry Strickland did not head East because of the obvious skirmishes between the Slave Cities "Beneath the gold , the bitter steel" has turned into a bare motto now which displays their origin Again , we can't say anything till The Winds of Winter. Although Aegon Blackfyre would be a interesting plot twist , it still lacks enough evidences and there has to be a child of Rhaegar and Lyanna and it is Young Griff who timewise makes the more sense ( at least , more than Jon Snow )
Love your videos. I often listen to them in the background as I relax after work. Does the Citadel have a interview process or can any literate person enroll? How many chains must someone forge to become a maester? Are there any knights that also attended the citadel?
Hi!, and thank you so much! Let me get back to you on those questions regarding the Citadel, I honestly am not 100% sure and don't want to give you wrong info. brb
I'm on board with almost all of this, but there is one small thing nagging at me. If Mance Rayder is actually Ser Arthur Dayne, how could he sneak into Winterfell for Robert's feast and again when the Bolton's have control of Winterfell without being recognized? Maybe I'm missing something but if anyone could clarify this I'd appreciate it.
That's a great point. I guess age and a completely different appearance clothes, manner and facial-hair/hair-wise could do it. Barristan is a great case-in-point. He was always as famous as Arthur.
Isn't the huge hole in this theory that Ned, someone who tries to be honorable to a fault and is terrible at playing politics, was complicit in a decades-long scheme to betray someone he considered a brother and usurp Robert's regime?
something I always wondered is why tear down the tower at all? Burning the furniture and everything inside would have been enough to hide evidence. Why not bring the bodies if they did die in a fight? There would be nothing suspicious about that. Leaving them would only cause more trouble and questions. This almost sounds like quarantine measures to me or something else terrible that had to be contained
I always found odd the the idea of Rhaegar taking lyanna to the end of westeros. That never made sense to me like wtf? How did they got there without being being caught?? Rhaegar were a hard valyrian looking asshole + the most famous guy in westeros with a war right he started right behind him and he managed to get out from winterfell straight to dorne with no problem?? what?? And i'm not even talking about his companions who were also very famous people. That travel make absolutely no sense
I think it would be helpful to go back over the timeline again... with emphasis on who went where and when... from the tourney at Harranhal to the end of Robert's Rebellion. I mean... after the tourney, Rhaegar, Elia, and Ashara went to Dragonstone... with which members of the Kings Guard? We know that Jamie was in Kings Landing. Riccard did not go to the tourney (there must always be a Stark in Winterfell)... but Brandon, Benjin, Ned, and Lyanna did... then Brandon, Lyanna, and Benjin went back to Winterfell? while Ned and Robert went back to the Vale? Then we had a few more months of winter... as winter set in with a vengeance after the false spring. So then we have the birth of Aegon on Dragonstone... Elia/Rhaegar learned they couldn't have any more children... so Rhaegar when to search out Lyanna? what... when Spring finally broke? and this would have lined up with about the time Brandon was supposed to marry Catlyn... so all of the Starks were on their way to River Run? (which Stark stayed in Winterfel?) So Rhaegar bumped into Lyanna on the road near the Inn at the Crossroads... and accompanied her to Winterfell... with Benjin too? .. and when Brandon heard about the "abduction" he rode straight for Kingslanding to the Red Keep where he demanded they return Lyanna? THEN the Mad King Aerys imprisoned Brandon and his lot... and called all of their fathers to Kings Landing... how long did THAT take? Riccard insisted on trial by combat... so THAT happened... meanwhile Ned had met up with Ashara in the Vale and learned about these tidings and took the long way round to Winterfell? while Robert and Jon Arryn went to sort out things in White Harbor... and then Robert took ship to the Stormlands to call HIS banners... and so where was Benjin during all of this? (was he the Stark who had to remain in Winterfell?) But during all of this, I want to know where all the Kings Guard were... specifically Rhaegar and those guarding Rhaegar...? Did Arthur, Gerald, and Oswald stay in Winterfell with Rhaegar and Lyanna? How does one do all of that secretly? There are so many unanswered questions... but meanwhile, Jamie stayed in Kings Landing... with Barristan and Lewin Martell... Wait... I'm missing a Kings Guard. We need to flush all this out to really figure out what happened... don't we?
"Why would Rhaegar hide Lyanna in Dorne? The place where his current wife, the women he's cheating on - is from?" - great question you two!!!
hahaa that was a fun video to make, and thank you
Dalibor Klobučar yeah wasn't Rhaegar supposed to be smart didn't he read one book a day or something.
I think it's because he was was great friends with one of the Kings guard who was from there.
Weren't the Dronish people extremely lenient people as to who they were relations with wether its a marriage or just lovers..? Perfect example is Oberyn and his old lady.. But also all his bastard kids which he genuinely cared for. Maybe all was well for Rhaegar to pursue Lyanna to fulfill the prophecy
There are some very good reasons why this is a perfectly normal and even novel thing for rhaegar to do. First let's start with elia, she is a Martel, sister to oberyn whom she loved and idolized, oberyn who had many bastards and more lovers. He loved all his bastards and made sure they were well taken care of. If he was such a huge influence on elia why wouldn't she think it was normal for her husband (a targaryan who historically practice polyamory as well) to take another lover and father another child? Especially when it has been announced that having another child will surely kill her. The dragon must have three heads after all. And rhaegar was obsessed with this prophecy and speaks about it at baby aegons birth "his is a song of ice and fire" he tells elia. She would have known how much this meant to rhaegar and their match being political not one of love she would have no reason not to allow him to father a bastard to fulfill his prophecy. As a final note on this point in every description of the tourney at harrenhal not a single one notes elias reaction to Lyana being crowned by rhaegar. Not one. We get notes about the starks reaction, aeres reaction even tywins reaction but not elias. Why not? Because she didn't react in a notable way because she was okay with it.
Now let's talk more about their marriage their marriage was set up by elias mother whose name I forget, but elia was a sickly ailing girl who against odds was chosen after the baratheons failed to find a suitable valyrian wife for rhaegar in essos (this is also the trip that would kill Roberts parents). She was an important political chess piece. She knew it all too well so did doran Martel. She could not lose her place as rhaegars wife and have her children delegitimized. So housing the paramour of rhaegar and their newborn in dorne on a major path was a very good way to ensure rhaegar could have easy access but allow the dornish to essentially use her as a hostage to ensure elias political position was maintained. This also explains why the dornish are targaryan loyalists. But they dragged their feet during the rebellion coming to the targaryans aid you might say. Well that is because they wanted rhaegar on the throne but currently the mad king still sat it and losing soldiers for a king you know is terrible isn't the best idea.
Now these aren't my own ideas, in deep geek has a good video series explaining this. And that being said im not subscribing to one theory over the other just that there is a good answer to many of the questions posed in this video, are they the right answers? Well we'll just have to wait to find out.
I just noticed this: in another video you mentioned that Dawn could be Lightbringer, wich was forged by plunging it into Nissa Nissa's heart. So I find it funny that GRRM used the words "forged from the heart of a fallen star" to describe Dawn.
A fallen star...aka a person of Starfall?
@@lburrsshinyhunts2253 no a meteorite i think
Dawn is exactly what brings light hence Lightbringer. And its forged from the literal heart of the fallen star: a heart of the goddess. Wow martin
This channel is the an absolute masterpiece of binge channels... I love drinking while listening to your theories and argumentations.... Big thumbs up, you've won a subscriber
P.S. The best part is that you are refering to the books and not to the shitty show
Glad to have you and thanks so much! Welcome to the wolf's den!
The “ shitty show” is the only reason you and 99.999999% of the fans know of these books. George is not so,e “ Uber good “ writer. Like fans of the show think. He’s pretty much hated by other fantasy writers for being such a tool when it comes to deadlines, thus making it harder for them to get deals. Worse he has so many continuity errors in his books, that he endorses some scrubs with a website to be his “ lore masters “ because he spews so many words on the pages he can’t keep track of them, and lastly, he violates rule one of novels. KEEP THE MAIN CAST TO 5 characters, 7 at the most. Why is this a rule ? Because it’s tough to read and keep track of more than 7.... he has hundreds of “ main characters “. And no one can keep track of them WITHOUT THE SHOW. Once u see it on the screen ( and even that cast is probably 20% of the cast in the books ) you can follow it.
But if Varys and Ned were acquainted like you guys theorize, wouldn't the conversations between them in the cellars in kingslanding be a bit different ?
Great question!
I was recently rereading the same and asking the same question : it can hold up, since previous interactions of the two of them would have been very limited. Varys says he didn’t know if he can trust Ned - and just because Ned i honourable, it does make him less likely to keep secrets that don’t obviously benefit his family. So them working on saving Lyanna’s child 15 + yrs ago, that wouldnt actually mean Ned would join any other scheme Varys needs him to join in the year 298?
@@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195 That makes sense. It also makes sense to say that George purposely omits Ned's thoughts about stuff we want to know.
However..... It's a massive stretch to have us believe that they wouldn't speak the truth at that point. They were all alone, and Varys was speaking treason. They have no reason to hold back. Also, if R+L=A, Ned would have asked how he was. Ned never thinks about the concept of Aegon when talking to Varys or anyone else. Varys wanted war between Stark and Lannister, just not right then. He doesn't give a shit about Ned. Varys has never, not once, been about the Realm or children. This is someone who is good ripping the tongues of slaves out of their mouths, so you'll forgive me for not finding value in him.
@jacobenke7936 Unfortunately, I think the answer simply is that George had to avoid certain topics in order not to spoil elements of his story. As unsatisfactory as that might be I think it certainly has to be true regarding certain topics, though we don't know which
Unless Varys used a proxy to contact Ned and smuggle Aegon out and protect him. So maybe Varys knows but Ned doesn't
My mind implodes following all of this and I consider myself a pretty big fan of the books but clearly there are different levels of fandom. I love how detailed and dedicated you both are!
thank you
I've only watched the shows. And what I understand from this video is, the show sucks I should really read the books to understand wtf you guys are talking about. Be right back.
Haha. Unfortunately the show has really fallen off in recent years but the books are incredible
Morgan Zakhary the show sucks when you compare it to the books.
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand George RR Martin and Dave and Dan Weiss had a private parting of the ways after joffrey's wedding that's the last script George RR Martin wrote but they made many many changes to it he did not write another episode for them againeverything Dave and Dan Weiss say about the song of ice and fire series and their relationship to it is BS and everything George RR Martin says about his relationship to Dave and Dan Weiss is him being super super polite
Zach Chang Any idea why the falling out?
Just buy and listen to the audio books. Its faster, you can do it while your doing other things.
Also, the audio books is hilarious when the voice actor make Arya and Daenerys sound like an Irish man.
I had a theory you guys were really GRRM and his wife revealing everything because you were sick of everyone being so far off. And then you showed your picture....lol. Im just soaking it all in. Thanks so much for sharing this!
hahaha...you are actually not the first person who has said that...I can't think of a greater compliment ...thank you so much
The Order of the Green Hand i just thought you two were greenseer's
Tearing a stone building down would take about 15 years but it would be the best Crossfit workout ever 🤓
Love your research not just fanboying and fangirling. I never bought the whole R+L=J that is too straightfoward for SOIAF
thank you
I really like the fact that i saw a response from you guys on near every comment. Kudos. Keep up the wondrous work.
we try to respond to everyone...as we grow it is getting increasingly difficult and time-consuming, but we're going to keep it up as long as we can
Y’all inspired me to reread the books.
Your theories are wild and really delve deep.
I still hope Lyanna is Jon’s mother because the story of Ned raising his nephew as his own son and sacrificing his own reputation & personal relationships to do so is a beautiful one, in my opinion.
The way you two put your site together is absolutely amazing, love it , best by far.....thank you so much, and please keep them coming....
thank you so much kay...we will
I really enjoy hearing a different take on things and you guys are awesome. So many fans are locked into R+L=J and other such theories that it sucks the fun out of it. You guys and Preston make it fun to think about something different. Thanks for what you do!
Thank you
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand Duck is obviously Ashara and Neds bastard he and ned share awkwardness and loyalty to a friend who would be kings the paralells are uncanny ;o
Just wanted to say that I just found you guys and the fact that you use screenshots from The Wire so frequently made me instantly subscribe. Will definitely be watching more.
love that show. :D
As a former English major who used to love deep-diving into our assigned texts, I thoroughly appreciate you guys' work! Thank you so much for these videos. I especially thank you for the "watch in this order" playlist. Very helpful. I'd love to see a intellectual death-match between you and "Secrets of the Citadel", my other favorite ASOIAF TH-cam researcher (who happens to be an R+L=J person). I keep going back and forth between your channels: "N+A=J, obviously! No, wait--R+L=J--it is known! But, wait, no...." etc. :)
+Shaun M Thank you so much. That would be fun. She's very nice. I've spoken to her a few times now and she's been great every time and even added us to her featured channels and gave me a few video making tips. And I really appreciate her intellectual honesty she showed by publicly commenting on our videos telling us that she is a firm believer in R+L=J but that we put together an impressive case for Ned and Ashara that really made her think and I really like her work on the historical context of the books and characters and how she simply states what is without cherry picking the facts to support her beliefs
Why did Secrets of citadel delete all her videos?
I've listen to each of your non-livestream videos at least 4 times, but rarely ever watched them. I just out them on while I work on something else. Only now did I notice The Wire memes, after you mentioned them in your last livestream :D I don't know the show, but if you two enjoyed it so much, I'm sad to see you've stopped because some people didn't like them
This video is the one you bought me for on your theories!
"and to answer that we have to go back to the beginning"
best way to start an analysis lol
Thank you...I liked that line too
This is deep.
Hey ry! Thanks for watching. And yes it is. :)
i wish i could transfer all of your knowledge into my brain! you guys do such an outstanding job with your videos. the information you share is worth reading a dozen books. I wish you great fortune in the wars to come! :)
thank you so much
This was great, thanks for the upload. Psyched for part two and the Blood Raven. It's so refreshing to have good fan theory that is based on the text and not influenced by the show. Thanks!
Thank you very much. We try very hard not to be influenced by the show. It is difficult because they change so much that we constantly have to go look up whether things happened in the show and the books or just in the show or just in the books to try and keep it all straight. Enjoy part 2 and our next video should be ready in a few hours so stay tuned
I just found your channel and so far I'm loving it. but I didn't hit the Subscribe button until I noticed the wire quotes!! mixing my favorite drama with my favorite fantasy, nice work!
" How my hair look Mike?"
~Snoop
Thank you...Michael was one of my favorites...I had higher hopes for him than being Omar Jr
The Order of the Green Hand
Ya, his ending was sad, not to mention Dookie, and how he left him. Like you, I thought Mike was better than that
dookie being bubs jr might have been the saddest moment in that entire series
The Order of the Green Hand
Agreed, that and when Bodie had to kill little Wallace
Ok....your theories and analysis of the books are 2nd to none....but all the clips of The Wire just made me your biggest fan :)
Thank you so much...we probably rewatch the Wire at least once a year
Aaaaand I'm subbed. Great video, insightful, interesting and fun. Plus you can't go wrong with pictures of The Wire. Btw, Bloodraven is one of the most fascinating characters in ASoIaF. He's the closest thing to an actual sorcerer in the story. A thousand eyes and one....
thank you!! we are so happy that people like our videos. we had no idea what we were doing, in terms of making videos, up until like a month ago. we are learning as we go, but are so excited about the responses we've gotten . i totally agree that bloodraven is one of the most fascinating characters. we have had so many debates about him, and finally landed on the fact that he does things, that are sometimes extremely deplorable, but for a greater purpose, a purpose that we cannot even begin to comprehend. we are going to do a bloodraven video soon. thanks again for watching.
FANTASTIC! I really want to see your part two video. Also I'm keen on seeing more info about Bloodraven and Varys! You guys sure know what you are doing. Because I read the books in Finnish so is nice to read in your videos the same text in English!
+Kaisa Immonen thank you so much! We are so glad people enjoy the videos. We try to stick to the text as it is written, because the way I see it, it's already a masterpiece. We have a few other videos in the Mysteries, Myths, and Motives series which touch upon the ideas presented in this video. The bloodraven/varys videos are coming up after we finish the wars to come. There's so much info that it'll likely be multiple videos. :-)
The long night is upon us near the artic circle😀 when the spring comes then the sun will rise again so until then your videos lights up our days (my husband and I)! It's fabulous that you give the credits to Martin who really has updated the fantasy genre! Your videos are the best ones in the TH-cam because you guys go deep in to the Martin's work. Fabulous!! ❤
LOVE that shots from "The Wire" are interspersed throughout this video! Omar and Bubbles are two of my all time favorite fictional characters.
The Wire is one of the best shows ever made...and if someone ever tried to tell me they didn't like Bubs or Omar we could never be friends again
Agree on both points!
Frodo Doodle I second this motion. You should also check out The Corner, same universe as The Wire...Bodymore, Murdaland. Based on nonfiction but it's good.
They did Omar dirty, getting capped from behind by a kid? I wanted him to get at Marlo.
Found my second favorite YT ASoIaF channel. Really nice researched videos. Keep up the great work.
Thank you...we will
Great stuff you two, I love it! Please don't take offense to me saying this, but it warms my heart to see such detail in tinfoil, which I don't believe to be as such. It makes me miss my work when I did ASOIAF theory, I have VERY similar notions when it came to the Hightowers and maesters, and one of my favorite theories was that of the kingsguard being alive and well, as well as Bael the Bard and the Wolf Maid. My favorite video was that of the significance of Ned's fever dream and his inability to fully recall the faces, the tower itself and the destruction of the tower. It's also very interesting to think of Gerold Hightower as the white bull, and his part played in Lyanna's disappearance is subtle regad to Zeus (long story, but VERY interesting nonetheless). All this myth and legend so beautifully played out in not only George's myth creation, but his subtle clues within the text that mirrors SO much actual myth and legend. And THAT is the detail I see with you two, beautifully, BEAUTIFULLY done! I'm so glad someone stuck to this community and delves into these ideas as I did at one time! Subbed, and thank you, it helps me love the series again, and remind me of how much more there is to learn and love. Even though I won't be in the ASOIAF TH-cam community, I'm glad you two will, thank you and keep it up! You have my support 100%!
Oh, and p.s., my foremost favorite topic was Bloodraven. Particularly in contrast to Loki and Fenrir, the wolf bound in the cave who bit off the hand of Tyr, champion of men (Bran and Jaime. Jaime "bound" Bran in Bloodraven's cave). Bloodraven is amazing and UNBELIEVABLY detailed, mysterious and methodical. I'm one of the crazies that believes he is the LoL, who is a facade of the CotF. I love, LOVE BR! I'd love to see your guys' ideas!
Thank you very much
We've just got to finish up a few topics we've been promising to touch and then we're going to get into Bloodraven and the Children of the Forest
I’m going to have to watch this another 5 times because this had the most information yet. You officially caused my brain to overload
you have earned a new subscriber here. well done
thank you
I love that you included relevant and appropriate screenshots from the best HBO show ever......
the Wire
I just had a thought. If you think of the Tower of Joy as a metaphor, it makes sense to think of Winterfell as Ned's Tower of Joy. Which means that Lyanna was at Ned's Tower of Joy AKA Winterfell.
Especially because no one but Ned and Howland Reed know where the tower was, as they destroyed it after as well.
I dont think TOJ ever happened. It was a lie and Lyanna was at Starfall the entire time. Ned's companions who "died" in battle are probably in service to House Dayne now.
Your analyses are top shelf. No one, pun intended, does better work of ASOIAF/GOT. What you have done here is comparable to the novels themselves. Organized and comprehensible...WELL DONE!
Thank you so much!!
I like your narration and use of vast knowledge of the text. The conclusions you draw from the text pieces you cite are huge leaps, however. I'll keep listening.
thanks for watching. :)
wow... 1st time ive actually heard this theory and so interesting and actually sounds plausible.
well done!
Thank you...the ToJ scene bothered us from the very first time we read Ned's fever dream...we looked at each other and were like I don't even understand why they fought
The Order of the Green Hand couldn't agree more. the one thing that never made sense to me was that they pretty much all wanted the same thing so why wouldnt they talk about w common sense instead of killing each other? i mean we all know Lyannawasnt kidnapped. well done. This resonated w me. As far as Mance Rayder and Lyana not being there and the rest Im not to sure about that but either way well done.
rhaegar lyanna=Aegon
I think the fans agree. Its time for blood raven. The love triangle of him and possibly Nan and Dunk. Its also time for us to HEAR ABOUT VAL. Love the work you guys do. Keep it up.
thank you so much!!! i really appreciate it. we will be getting into old nan, and bloodraven, very soon. we are almost there. we try to build a narrative around the story so it takes a bit longer than we anticipate, but I promise it's coming soon.
Whatever you do in these vids. They keep us coming back. You do a GREAT job at putting it all together into something that MAKES sense. So many other just repeat what they hear. You guys do a great job in YOUR OWN words that makes it all so wonderful
Thank you...it means a lot to us that people actually notice that the narrative we are painstakingly building makes sense and can bring all of these seemingly unrelated plot-lines together into a cohesive story, and that these are our thoughts, not just something we read somewhere and are trying to claim it as our own...thank you so much...and Val is leading off our next video...and I didn't see your comment before bc she answered it but nice pull with Old Nan and Dunk...I'm not going to say any more because we want to do a video on it but if you're thinking what I think you are, you're the first person I've talked to that seems to see the same thing there that we do
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand Haahahhaha. 7 years later I still agree.
You should certainly make a Bloodraven video as well. Your theories are the most probable that I have heard. Thank you for your work .
thank you so much! bloodraven is coming soon! the videos take a while to make, and clearly we go through the details painstakingly. haha but i promise it will be soon.
One of the best channels I ever accidentally clicked on.
yay! Thanks for watching.
Re watching y'alls videos yet again. It cures the withdraws and it also helps to continue learning the tangled web that has been created in this amazing story.
we're recording our next video as we speak...its probably my favorite we've done so far...I can't wait to get it online
Who are you guys? Seriously. I really enjoy your analysis, as much as I have listened to and watched this past week since stumbling onto your channel, and I would appreciate a video to introduce ""the elephant in the room" so to speak. Are you guys English majors? Truck drivers reading on the long haul? Or writers since childhood, et cetera? (and did you two meet while doing independent analysis on this series or have you been a team since the beginning, feeding off each other in tandem?) You certainly bring a lot of personal scope into your analysis. Such a video introduction, likely, would not directly increase your authority or devalue it. But it would be of interest to the rest of us who feel awed by the work you have done on this series. Really well done too, it is. [Do you have a Twitter account?]
Thank you very much...that is very nice of you to say...We're just a normal couple that read the books about a year and a half ago and went online to see if anyone else thought what we did, and there was no one, but we thought we were right so we decided to make a couple videos outlining our ideas, not thinking anyone would watch them
@gr33nhand is our twitter and we're on facebook as the order of the green hand
Do you have any background in literary criticism? Is it a just hobby? Your analysis is deep. It is a credit to GRRM if this is indeed how he created the story, weaving into it all you have deduced, after being dissatisfied with the genre in the 90s. Are you Fantasy genre aficionados (or what is your general reading genre category)? Your analysis gives me an explanation why it is taking GRRM so long to write the story and why the detail in what seems, on the surface, boring. I am ashamed to admit it, but, I have a new found respect for the author's craft after watching your videos.
Neither of us have any sort of literary backgrounds...when we first started dating years ago, I got her into the show/ told her if she doesn't watch it we couldn't be friends ;)...then she got me the books for Christmas a few years ago, but we were busy and never got around to reading them until 2 summers ago...we had heard from people we worked with that Jon was a secret Targaryen and assumed because they read the books and we hadn't, it was true, so we were reading them under the assumption that he was and got to the knight of the laughing tree story, and then Ned Dayne meeting Arya and decided that we needed to start the books over because Jon being a Targaryen no longer made sense to us...then, when reading the books from the standpoint of Jon being Ned's, a whole bunch of other stuff started popping out at us...we tried telling other people what we thought but no one was buying what we were selling, but we were convinced we figured a bunch of stuff about the books out that no one else did, so like I said earlier we made a couple videos, assuming that no one would watch them...and yes...it takes him so long because of how detailed everything is and the way he so meticulously weaves the plotlines together...his books are practically 1200 page poems in the way he chooses his words with incredible care...we think of it kind of like a 6000 page word puzzle
The thing that stonewalls me, when trying to think out of the box as you two have done in your videos here on your channel, is that the HBO show runners answered "GRRM's question "who is Jon Snow's parents?" So the fable goes, their correct answer is how they won/earned the rights to do the TV show (subtly named for the first book and NOT for the book series). This line of story has always struck me sideways as too... cliché. I am not a meticulous reader so I appreciate the series on one level, which really does not address GRRM's dissatisfaction with cliché Fantasy up 'til the 1990s. Your analysis does do that and I find myself thinking about the story in a whole new light because of it - almost a different story. A Song of Ice & Fire, to me, is the first literary work in the genre because it interweaves not only history and folklore (like Tolkien) but also literary references from other genres into its story. I do still hope you will do an intro video. You have a theory worthy of academic study. medieval-fantasy.pl/5.html Thanks for broadening my mind.
Loved this video, very intersting points and connections. Also have to say i love everyting from The Wire. I live in Baltimore and you may have inspired me to rewatch it as im waiting for the next season of GoT.
thank you...the Wire was sooo good...still probably my favorite show ever
A Bloodraven video would be awesome!!! One of my favorite characters in the Asoiaf world
Coming soon
Love it. I'm tuned in! Have you guys considered including your written portion with a link to the video on the amino app?
thanks!! no never considered that. what is it?? how do we do that? :) haha
The Order of the Greenhand It's a community app. It almost works like Instagram in the sense that people can follow you and you can follow them. But everyone on there is a fan of the series. You can download it on your smartphone. Search game of thrones amino...I added a picture of what the interface looks like as a reference. I'm sure you script your videos...you could use the app to post a written version of your theory and also provide the video links to your TH-cam channel...just a suggestion. I'm on there as well. My username is Shoot the Messenger. I'll follow you if you join for sure! Lol
_lh3.googleusercontent.com/aOUfh7FbpfcVSsCSWoQWJtepcQuNX3nEAJOSTO9gVTLwKip4dpd7BKNE6aaqBXagL4nJUOs_
love your theories
Thank you!
Excellent content and delivery guys, very well researched. Subscribed. 🙂
Thanks so much
I d love to see a video on blood raven
ask and you shall receive...we have a few videos planned first but give us a few weeks and we'll have something for you
Awesome, I'd also love to see some stuff on Bloodraven.
The Order of the Green Hand I'd love to see one on Blood raven as well
kk piter me too anything on him or the faceless men
Kyle's Fookin Chickens did an awesome video on this topic 👌
Can we just all admit that the Hightowers are just garbage. Like every noble family reaches to climb the ladder but I swear every time a Hightower makes a move or is even involved in an event, the offending Hightower either fails miserably and the realm suffers or the Hightower is successful and... The realm suffers for it. Screw the Hightowers!
Great stuff guys. I always wondered why Ned didn't take so much as a retinue. No tale, no column. They'd just won a war, and Ned goes to fight the enemy's strongest assets with a bachelor weekend of bros & buds. So sketchy.
everything about that Ned fever dream bothered me...at first, I couldn't even figure out why they were fighting...Ned is the uncle...why would they fight to the death following that conversation? Then didn't even ask what Ned and his companions intentions were...then I asked myself the questions that you just pointed out and why the three kingsguard were outside drawing attention and not in a position to defend anyone...then I decided that can't be what happened because it makes no sense
The Order of the Green Hand the famous set up: "he dreamed an old dream"..."Old Dream" is very specific there. Not "his mind wandered back", or "He found himself back", but "he dreamed an old dream". It's misleading. Are people's reoccurring dreams usually just raw recollection? I think you could argue that an "old" dream is - for most people - complete invention.
It's not as if he's generally, constantly haunted by this. This is the only mention of Ned Dreaming this dream in all the books. So it's not a memory that's invading his consciousness. It's funny because this scenario seems far more likely than the accepted interpretation that the Dream was only a flawed, traumatic memory. How much do you buy into as regards the glass candles, and the possibility of using them to influence a person's dreams?
awesome videos guys!! keep it up! i would love to hear a video about bloodraven!
Thank you...coming soon
I've only recently came across this wonderful channel. After watching a couple different playlist I'm now working thru the "recommended order playlist" so forgive me if you've address this question elsewhere..
Seeing as how we've now see the tower of joy thru Bran, do you guys still think see Arthur Dane is alive and is mance?
yes...I feel like they were practically shouting from the top of a mountain that the way they showed it on the show isn't accurate...they couldn't even be bothered to have the right number of guys there...George also said that Ned's dream (which is how we see that scene in the books) was a fever dream and shouldn't be taken literally, and the way they showed it on the show was a bastardized version of his dream...I'm still upset that Dawn looked like they picked it up at Toys R Us instead of a 6 foot long glowing white sword
Can I just say I LOVE The Wire references in your videos? Omar and Marlo were my fave characters-- Marlo being the perfect villain in my eyes. Well, that and I love your GoT content as well (obviously).
thank you so much
OMG when I got to "They had a baby to feed and care for" and tried to picture tearing down a stone bldg with swords and horses I started laughing so hard I did an actual spit take with my drink.
haha when we had that conversation one night I too literally laughed out loud when Dave told me it would take like years to tear down a stone building, and then we both were like and what were they doing with the baby while this was going on.
The Order of the Green Hand well Ned did just father a son so maybe he used his man tits.
Anyone who is unwilling to consider that Elia was in on and fully okay with what Rheagar and Lyanna are up to is going to get everything wrong, because she very obviously was.
We use all information available. You’re making broad assumptions without looking anything up. George said her brothers were furious. That all but confirms Elia wasn’t ok with Rhaegar abandoning her and publicly humiliating her in front of everyone that matters in Westeros
Can you imagine Marlo & Cersei: the red keep streets n' no chill?
Love the shout-outs to the Wire.... Glad I found you guys.... Analysis is great....
Thank you...the Wire is one of the best shows I've ever seen...the type that almost requires a once a year binge watch
Once in a year?!? I usually watch around one season a month...lol
Would love a Bloodraven video!
This one is great. Better late than never, for me XD
much appreciated
Love to know more about varys
I understand that these videos are about a month old, but i have to tell you, i truly enjoy your videos and analysis. I'm only a show watcher and haven't picked up the books yet, it seems a daunting task for a semi-slow reader...therefore i thoroughly enjoy your videos that has a lot of quotes and information from the books. Forgive me if you've already done so, i am going through your videos now but i would be very interested in your opinions/analysis of the book only character Patchface and his prophetic songs. I'd love to see any video regarding what you think of all different prophecies?? Being book readers, you see/sense more of that dynamic than a simple show watcher. Thanks and I hope the Order of the Green Hand continues to make more videos (I also enjoy that your videos are a bit longer than most about Game of Thrones), it helps me get through the "off-season" for the show. THANKS AGAIN and keep up the good work! Your take on things is AWESOME!!
+Tracy Whitlock Thank you. We have a few projects to do first but we'd be happy to do a patchface video. His songs are very strange. If I were Stannis that creature wouldn't be anywhere near my daughter
No one beats the High Ground
Obi Wan know that best of all hahahah
OH MY... Order Of ?The Green Hand....You just made my day about tearing down a building with some swords and horses...RITFLOLWTFOL....Wooo, I needed that~! :D
as someone who grew up working masonry every summer, the part about two guys with a few horses and swords tearing down a stone tower really stuck out to me as physically impossible given the time constraints and the need to care for a newborn baby
More about Blood Raven, please!
+SCHarborGal There's a nice little nugget at the end of the video we released earlier today that you might find interesting. It's called the Wars to Come
Wow just found you, love the vids. I got super excited when you dropped the Arther Dayne is Mance Rayder bit! I actually did a couple of videos way back in July saying the same thing! . Iol I'm kinda known in our lil G.O.T. community for seeing the other side of things. Cool to see someone who shares a view. Great vids keep em coming....
Thank you...Arthur being Mance was one of the first theories we came up with
I just read my response and saw it kind of came off rude and wanted to make sure you knew that it wasn't intended to be...thanks so much for watching
No worries. & no offense taken. I know how it is answering 30 people, can only imagine replying to 150....
The comment section is borderline overwhelming...especially since we hated on Catelyn...some people are acting like we were talking about their mothers
LOL sounds about right for this community. You should see some of the back & forth's I get for my Mad King is Jon's Dad video's. It drives them nuts other people have different POV's on certain story lines. Love how jazzed up this story gets people, & congrats on so many subs so fast! Just shows they like you they really like you! ( in my best Sally Fields voice)....
Can you do a video on Arthur Dayne being Mance?
That is exactly what we're doing at this very moment
Awesome!
The Order of the Green Hand HOORAY love mace!!!
Mance was a brother of the watch. born of a wildling woman and a brother of the watch. he was never a Kings Guard
m1903rotc
Could be you just gave us the Mance cover story. Of course, tv and books have parted ways more than once which adds to the fun.
great work. love the wire memes
+Shawn yetman great show! "Just a gangsta I suppose" that quote is in part 2, perfect line for varys! Haha. Thanks for watching, and for commenting . :)
The Tower of Joy being torn down always bothered me. How? Does anyone else the novels ever mention the Tower of Joy?
+Cojer52 I've been unable to find another reference of anyone else mentioning it
Wouldn't GRRM have someone else reference it, or its history if it was significant place?
one would think so
The only possible explanation i can come up with, is that howland used some earthshaping spell he learned at the island of faces
I’m late but I love y’all channel 💯
thank you !!
Yeah, finally someone who also believes that Arthur could be Mance. Ned story dosen't ad up. Why would Ned leave Arthurs body at The Tower of Joy? He did go to Starfall just after burying Arthur. He brought the sword but not the body? Thats disrespectfull. And the Daynes respect Ned. Lord Edric Dayne says that Ned Stark is his namesake. He is called Ned.Obvioustly Ned did something for the Daynes that they are grateful for.
we asked ourselves those exact questions...we talk about it in N+A=J part 2 or 3...it's been a while since we made them but if I had to guess it is in part 2 if my memory serves me right
I don't think Jon is Ned's son. Nor Ashara. I'm sure he is Lyannas and Rhaegars son. There are so many hints in the books. It makes perfectly sense that prophesy obsessed Rhaegar whould want another child that could be the prince(ess) that was promised. He couldn't have more children with Elia, but the Dragon must have three heads. And he needed another child. Who better to be the mother of that child than a warging Stark? They have special genes just like the valyrians.Jon's personality is just like Rhaegars. And also it's cannon in the tv-show. But I wonder if Dany is Asharas daugther. She could be in the books. She looks just like Asharas daughter would have looked, according to Barristan. If Ashara got pregnant, Aerys could be the father. He was known to sleep with the women of the court. And with Arthur Dayne sent away to guard the Tower of joy, he wouldn't be here to protect her against rape from Aerys. That would make Dany a bastard. If Ned came to Starfall with baby Jon, Son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, he would find baby Dany hidden there. Another Targaryen baby. They could help eath other. Keeping each others secrets. Let the rumor spread about Ashara and Ned havind a child, as it would protect both the children. I don't think Ned and Ashara ever had a relationship. To me it seemed like it was his brother Brandon who had a relationship with Ashara. Ned only danced with her after his fliting older brother told her too. Barristan definently doesn't think Ned ever dishonoured Ashara. But he thinks someone did. Barristan respects and likes Ned Stark. He wouldn't if Ned was the one who slept and had a realtionsship with the woman he loved, Ashara Dayne.
We definently know that something about Danys past isn't right. The house with the red door wasn't in bravos as she thinks.
The hints in the story indicate that Rhaegar and Lyanna had a child...it doesn't mean it's Jon...Jon is not like Rhaegar...he is exactly like Ned in every way shape and form, right down to being a literal clone of him physically...Aerys couldn't be the father because Ashara never went back to KL after the Tourney...she went to Dragonstone with Elia where Elia gave birth to her son Aegon....and Barristan Selmy wouldn't begrudge Ned for falling in love with a girl that loved him back, even if Barristan loved her too...he never told her...he never made a move...why would he begrudge Ned? Maybe be a little jealous of him, but Harrenhal was 17 years before the books started, and Ashara had been "dead" for 15 years...Ned is an honorable guy...Honorable guys tend to like other honorable guys in this story...and if Dany isn't who they say she is how exactly did they trick her 9 year old brother (Viserys) that he had a baby sister that he didn't have? the house with the read door with all the servants is likely the Sealord of Braavos' palace...Arya never goes near it and he is said to be a lover of exotic animals, which indicates to me that he must have a way of keeping them alive in winter so he most likely has a huge glass garden in which there could very well be a lemon tree
No the house with the red door can't be the Sealords Palace. Not warm enough. Also Bravos is cold, wet and smells like fish. Not a place you run on a field of grass barefoot. And yes Jon Snow is an honorable melancolic kid. Who is also a good fighter. Just like Rhaegar. I agree that he also resemblance Ned aka the stark side. His is of both ice and fire. If Dany is Aerys daughter she would still be Vicerys sister. Dany could also be the daughter of Rhaella and Lewyn Martell, as he is said to have had a secret paramour.
And how can you believe that FAegon is Rhaegars son? Because he looks Targaryen and acts like him? Many with valyrian blood resemblance each other. Its called imbreeding. Varys and Illyrio didn't support Rhaegar, and they don't support his sister Dany nor their father Aerys. Also Varys dosn't fight for the realm. He fights for himself. He even says Kevan had done a great job ruling, before he kills him. It would be better fr the realm if he hadn't made Aerys more mad, if he had supported Rhagars attempt to take the throne from his father, if he had supported the peacefull rule of Robert B. He could have avoided war more than one time. But he have spent all of his life in order to place a child on the throne. Thats not for the realm! Because the child is most like someone close to him. I'm guessing FAegon is Illyrios son by his last wife Sera. Illyrio clearly likes the boy and have nicely boys clothing in his house, even though he supposedly don't have children. Illyrio have no reason to support Aegon if he was Rhaegars son. Illyrio says its for financial reasons, but Tyrion knowns he is lying. As we know the Blackfyre female line is still alive and Sera could be a blackfyre. And maybe a relative of Varys as they both came from Lys and ended up befriending Illyrio. If Varys, and Sera, is a blackfyre it would explain why Varys was sold and got his balls cut off. Theres is power in a kings blood. Or just in Targ/blackfyre blood. Varys even shaves his head. Like Egg does.
But the biggest reason I think Aegon is a Blackyre, except that GRRM has written too much about them for it not to be relevant, is that FAegon have the Golden Company. The broke their contract for him. They would never do it if they didn't know he was a Blackfyre.
Hello, Mr. and Mrs. Green Hand. This is my first comment on the first video of yours I'm watching. Love the presentation and how you share in the dispensation of the information.
So this Jon as the prince that was promised and the tower of joy thing was kind of off for me when I first read the books. And even as others in the world of fandom of ice and fire began to lean more heavily on that theory, I still had my doubts.
Now, you're telling me that I may have been obscurely right? Oh you have got my attention now. Also I have picked up on how GRR repeats or revisits certain and specific historic events. I had taken note of the Bael the Bard story when I first read it, but only looked at it as just knitting out more of how heavily the Starks are woven into the lore.
So, now, with you bringing in this Ashara Dane thing and connecting it to Jon Connington and Young Griff, I'm getting a better understanding of the how and why R. Martin would just kind of throw this plot line in four or so books into the series with nary a substantial mention of them. If you are right, now I know.
Ultimately if the Tower of Joy was a mish mash of various memories that are only tied together based on the time in his life, in which they all came about, and if you're saying Rheagar and Lyanna were in the crypts the whole time, then when Ned did finally come home, is where he found her literally on her death bed? Or is there more you haven't shared yet?
So does that mean, Rheagar died on the Trident or did he leave from Winterfell north, as some say, to somehow become Mance Rayder, the King beyond the wall?
Man this is some heavily intricately constructed stuff - - Wow, I"m blown away!
So after answering my questions, yes, please do a video on Bloodraven, as I think it would go a long way towards shedding more light on what R. Martin is up to with this whole shebang. As of the close of season 6, I've been thinking more and more about how it it a good number of characters from the distant past of westeros, mixed in with the more 'present day' ones, are working to restore some balance, to right some wrong and of course, ultimately stop the long night from coming again.
hello! i like the Mr. and Mrs. Greenhand, haha. first, thanks so much for watching the video. if this is the first video of ours you have watched, then if you have any time, a lot of the things we allude to in this video are explained in (what could be considered excruciating) detail in some of our other videos. we too had our doubts about the tower of joy, and the whole R+L=J thing just didn't add up for us. So yes, we believe that your initial assessment was more than obscurely right. :) the whole bael the bard thing got past me the first time i read it, but then i was looking through the books again and im like DAVE YOU HAVE TO READ THIS AGAIN! in regards to Ashara, we believe that Ned actually married her at White Harbor, but was then forced to marry Catelyn Tully by Hoster in exchange for Tully aid, which was absolutely necessary for the rebels come outta the whole thing alive. We just released a video which articulates this (its called Mysteries, Myths, and Motives: Ned's Honor). Anyway, in an effort to protect both Lyanna's son with Rhaegar, whom we believe is Aegon, and Jon (from any future blowback from the Tully's), Ashara agrees to take Lyanna's baby and leave Jon with Ned. Jon pulled a similar maneuver with Gilly, when he swaps out Mance Rayder's baby with Gilly to save him from Melisandre's fires. We think that Ned treated with the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy, at which point he was informed that he could find his sister back at Winterfell, about to give birth. We have a theory on how they got back and forth (given the fact that they couldn't go through the neck, but we'll do a video on that soon). Anyway, we do believe that Rhaegar died at the Trident, if not he's the biggest scumbag ever! haha We believe that Mance Rayder is actually Arthur Dayne. This is coming up in our next video. Then we plan on doing the whole Bloodraven, Shiera Seastar, Varys video series. Thanks again for watching and for the comment.
Oh, you hands are very welcome, and let me say; thank you for the care, passion and enthusiasm, you infuse into your videoes.
In truth, I have seen probaly, at least two other videos you hands have posted, one of which was the 'mysteries and motivations...', which I found wonderfully delightful and articulated.
These are the types of things I really gravitate towards, in terms of the books; I can re-read the books, but, I know good people, hands, like yourselves are already out there with analysis and evaluations that can answer the questions I have, especially related to the more obscure or soft-peddled subplots of this monstrously epic series.
And it's funny to note that while Jon literally know nuthin' of the other half of his lineage, actually commits the exact same act to save a baby's life, as his father did, 17 or so years before. Talk about irony.
At this point I'm way more excited for the next book, than the TV show, because the books are so much more heavily textured and layered, which make them way more interesting.
Suffice it to say; I'm now a subscriber, and will be pouring through many other of your videoes, in the days and weeks to come.
Thanks again for all your hard work and meticulous detail, take care and beware the long night.
Thank you so much...we really do put a lot of effort into these and you have no idea how motivating it is for us to receive comments such as yours. And yes...winter is coming and we're ready
looking forward to a blood raven video
thank you...it'll be coming soon
I definitely agree that there are pieces out of place with the juggling of baby, horse, sword, sister's corpse, tearing down tower, etc. I also definitely agree that the Howland Reed/Ned Stark/Sir Arthur Dayne situation was different from what we saw in the series. Perhaps a conversation where Reed helped Ned convince Dayne to let Ned take the child.
yea the whole story is really suspect.
Bloodraven!
+Mike Bickert Thanks for watching. We put a little nugget of our Bloodraven theory in the video we released earlier today but there's a lot more to come
So I've basically change all my theories now, haha. Love your analysis!
I was just wondering which is the next part of this theory?
the most underrated youtube channel on the topic..Kinda sad when someone like Alt Shift x has so many followers when it's just so basic and bland, totally uninspiring. Compared to an in-depth analysts of this caliber like what you bunch do!
Thank you so much...he irritates me...he has no original content at all...he just poaches other people's ideas, claims all theories "belong to the community" and says "there is a theory that says...." and gets 500k views...he stole some of our ideas last week that really made me mad...he even copied my joke
He is ridiculous man! I completely agree, he recycles the same theories that've been floating around for YEARS. AND MISSES OUT on some KEY aspects of the theories to top it off! I watch your channel and others like yours because I want to learn something NEW, something I don't already know about A Song Of Ice And Fire and the Universe it takes place in. I originally thought AltShiftX was just for the show and that's why he missed out on some key aspects of some theories but that just isn't the case, he just isn't a quality channel to tune into. That's my two cents on that. His new Alt Schwift X channel is even worse. My lord, he sounds drunk as hell while making those videos.
Completely agree! Thank you so much for the kind words and for feeling our frustration. Dave had to restrain me when I saw his tormund video and that he was partaking in the bullying of one of our fans. But thanks it means a lot to us. This is lady green hand now if you couldn't tell. :-)
Great work.
Thank you
I can't help but feel this whole comment section has totally overlooked the fact your girlfriend is pretty hot.
thank you...on that I wholeheartedly agree
+The Order of the Green Hand lol nice try Lady Green Hand
Agostino- thank you ! And Chris- I didn't even know this absolutely wonderful post existed until I saw your reply in the notifications haha
+The Order of the Green Hand lol shouldn't Ser Green Hands response be 'Pretty hot? Prepare to die scum for this is the fairest maiden in the land!'
all I know is if I wholeheartedly agree with 'pretty hot' in reference to my girlfriend, I'd be in big trouble :) not that I'm ever not hahaha
+The Order of the Green Hand not to imply that you aren't hot unless threatened lol but fear keeps the kingdom in line right? haha
I feel that a lot of these videos follow the pattern of "here's a slight textual ambiguity, wouldn't it be cool if...", whereas the claims made generally require a lot more evidence than is actually provided. George laces his work with plots and conspiracies, but tends to provide firmer evidence. Discounting rare nuggets of insight [Ned's fever dream] because they dont fit these theories seems....limited scholarship. For example, the motif of blue flowers ties Jon Snow heavily to Lyanna, and the rusty iron dragon and mummer's dragon ties Aegon heavily to House Blackfyre. These are the substantial breadcrumbs that should be harnessed, rather than not-actually-incongruent descriptions.
An excellent example would be Ned's respect for Arthur Dayne, which you imply is incompatible with Ned having fought/killed him. This seems absurd, as in war, who you fight has essentially no relation to who you respect, and the recurring theme of the Kingsguard is of good men sworn in the service of limited rulers and flawed vows. George RR Martin was a conscientious objector, and a large portion of his series rests on the absurdity and unforseen consequences of war. The ambiguity implies that Ned didn't kill Arthur in a straight up duel, and to be honest, the tv show gives a prety plausible explanation for how it all went down. As for the lack of strategy: the Targaryen cause was lost, and if the Kingsguard holed up in their tower, they would be easily starved or sniped. Their deaths were a death by cop necessitated by their dead prince's orders, and an nwillingness to bend the knee to an Usurper who killed their Liege.
We don't find the fact that Ned and Arthur were enemies in war to be incompatible with Ned respecting him...we find the story about Arthur helping to kidnap his sister and fighting him to the death to prevent Ned from bringing his sister home incompatible with the respect Ned has for him...we also think the story that people think is true is impossible because Arthur's older brother named his heir after Ned...if Ned killed Arthur and scorned Ashara, resulting in her suicide, why would the Lord of Starfall be named after him? why does the Mummer's (Varys') Dragon have to be a Blackfyre? and we discount the details of Ned's fever dream, because GRRM himself said to...he said that we got that information through a dream, and a fever dream at that, and dreams are not always literal when asked about it...
Yall be reaching lol. Good videos tho
thank you!
OP uo have a pretty good voice for narration. Unlike some of the people making these Game of Thrones video things. have heard audio books and you have a voice sfor that. When i started listening in the middle of one of your videos i actually thought it was an audio book.
thank you so much
AEGON IS EITHER A BLACKFYRE OR BRANDON STARKS SON NED WOULD NEVER CHEAT OR BREAK HIS WORD ..... YOU THINKING R+L=J IS FALSE FEELS LIKE THE FANS WAITING LADY STONEHEART TO MAKE AN APPEARANCE IN THE SHOW...YEAH NOT GONNA HAPPEN
deusredeemer So true .While it's a cool theory and thought experiment its reaching into the land of tin foil hats and denial of the TRUTH(R+L=J).If this series was as popular as it is now in the days of NO SOCIAL MEDIA,TH-cam,AND REDDIT you wouldn't have people communicating all the clues and FORESHADOWING of R+L=J therefore you woudnt have people in denial about it saying it's too obvious.
If R+L=J is somehow revealed to be wrong all it would say is that GRR MARTIN changed his mind at the last minute to throw in some twist (M NIGHT SHAYLMAN STYLE)for no reason.Its ok that R+L=J it does not have to be some complicated OVERREACHING EXPLANATION to be good .Same goes for Young Griff if you read into it you start to see the clues and FORESHADOWING that he is a BLACKFYRE .Which is actually way better then him being A REAL Targaryn.
Its truly going to be great when WINDS OF WINTER is out and CEMENTS R+L=J.
deusredeemer SCREAMING DOESN'T HELP YOUR ARGUMENT IT MAKES YOU LOOK LIKE A DUMBASS
b toki85 don't be butt hurt if r+l=j is proven wrong
Son Of Vergil Don't be butt hurt if R + L = J is proven right. 😉
Dane Mitch I won't but here's to hoping👍🏾
This theory, that those kings guard are in the far north, is so much fun! I don’t care if it’s true, I’m enjoying the idea.
Dorne is the best place for lyanna to be hidden, its hard to traverse and its in the center of one of their best alloances cuz marraige, not to mention “cheating” is a very 2000’s relationship take, dornish encourage polygamy
Thank You!!!! The whole thing about dismantling the tower has always made no sense to me!
Hmm i dabbled in this theory quite a bit but i recently swapped to a different theory about varys being a descendent of daemon blackfyre and lady mysaria, the mistress of whisperers who rivaled bloodravens skill. The main thing that drove me to this is that i do not believe the golden company would ever help a targaryen, the sole purpose they were founded was to overthrow the targaryens and go back to Westeros. Which makes me think young griff is a blackfyre.
Well , the current Golden Company do not strive to achieve the same goals it used to when it was found , at present they are ready to do anything if victory is ensured and the payment is enough ( although there's a karma that The Golden Company has never won in Westeros but that's a different matter )
@@mahathirahmad559 I disagree, a lot of the Golden Company are descendants of exiled Westerosi who were against the Targaryens, and feuds carry on through generations. I mean the Golden Company still travels around with Bittersteels skull.
Many of the sellswords under Golden Company lie of their actual bloodlines as there is no way to prove them wrong ( Tyrion , ADWD )
and have golden company displayed any motive to pursue their original goals yet? They haven't.
Regardless of Aegon's identity , the sellswords and even high ranking members believe that Aegon is a Targaryen. Does Harry Strickland seem someone who would devote himself for an old cause ? No , its gold and victory whats matters.
Most of the points of Aegon as a Blackfyre theory lies on speculation and there is no solid evidence regarding it. Even the "Mummer's Dragon" can be explained in several other days.
There is no solid evidence that Aegon is a Targaryen either, thats what allows theories to be crafted. Id say theres more evidence that Aegon isnt a "real" Targaryen than not. Why would Varys not save Rhaenys as well? Strickland didn't want to go East to help Daenerys, and was more than ready to head West without her. I mean the Golden Company's saying is, " beneath the gold, the bitter steel," they obviously hold bittersteel in high esteem and will still value his ideals. The sellswords in the Golden Company are going to do whatever the high ranking members tell them, and theres no way to know that they are all under the impression Aegon is a Targaryen. If Aegon isnt a real Targaryen id doubt that he would know or even Connington. Now this is all speculation because if there was any solid evidence on who Aegon is there would be no debate.
Well , this Aegon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's child not Rhaegar and Elia's. Varys didn't save either Rhaenys or Aegon ( R+E ) becoz he couldn't , they are dead. It is known.
Harry Strickland did not head East because of the obvious skirmishes between the Slave Cities
"Beneath the gold , the bitter steel" has turned into a bare motto now which displays their origin
Again , we can't say anything till The Winds of Winter. Although Aegon Blackfyre would be a interesting plot twist , it still lacks enough evidences and there has to be a child of Rhaegar and Lyanna and it is Young Griff who timewise makes the more sense ( at least , more than Jon Snow )
And this video with the graphics from The Wire, you rock!
thanks!! we love that show
The leaps of logic you people make is truly breathtaking and you pronounce your unsubstantiated claims with such confidence it's truly remarkable!
alright alright alright !
Love your videos. I often listen to them in the background as I relax after work.
Does the Citadel have a interview process or can any literate person enroll? How many chains must someone forge to become a maester? Are there any knights that also attended the citadel?
Hi!, and thank you so much! Let me get back to you on those questions regarding the Citadel, I honestly am not 100% sure and don't want to give you wrong info. brb
I'm on board with almost all of this, but there is one small thing nagging at me. If Mance Rayder is actually Ser Arthur Dayne, how could he sneak into Winterfell for Robert's feast and again when the Bolton's have control of Winterfell without being recognized? Maybe I'm missing something but if anyone could clarify this I'd appreciate it.
That's a great point. I guess age and a completely different appearance clothes, manner and facial-hair/hair-wise could do it. Barristan is a great case-in-point. He was always as famous as Arthur.
They pulling stuff out of their ass at this point.
I REALLY LOVE YOUR VIDEOS!!!!
Hey do you guys know what happened to Gemma aka Secrets of the Citadel?
no i don’t! we always liked her though !! let us know if you find out !!
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand will do and thank you for responding so quickly Greenhand. Oh and thank you for your great vids. Please keep them coming.
I love your videos. Could you do one on Brans Destiny 😊
Great video Mr. Howard Hamlin.
hahaa he def does sound just like him!
Isn't the huge hole in this theory that Ned, someone who tries to be honorable to a fault and is terrible at playing politics, was complicit in a decades-long scheme to betray someone he considered a brother and usurp Robert's regime?
something I always wondered is why tear down the tower at all? Burning the furniture and everything inside would have been enough to hide evidence. Why not bring the bodies if they did die in a fight? There would be nothing suspicious about that. Leaving them would only cause more trouble and questions. This almost sounds like quarantine measures to me or something else terrible that had to be contained
The rona?
I always found odd the the idea of Rhaegar taking lyanna to the end of westeros. That never made sense to me like wtf?
How did they got there without being being caught?? Rhaegar were a hard valyrian looking asshole + the most famous guy in westeros with a war right he started right behind him and he managed to get out from winterfell straight to dorne with no problem?? what?? And i'm not even talking about his companions who were also very famous people. That travel make absolutely no sense
Would LOVE to hear your insights about Bloodraven!
Love all "The Wire" pictures in this video.
thank you...a few idiots tried to say we were racist for using them
Can you post a link to part 2? I cant find it on your channel
I think it would be helpful to go back over the timeline again... with emphasis on who went where and when... from the tourney at Harranhal to the end of Robert's Rebellion. I mean... after the tourney, Rhaegar, Elia, and Ashara went to Dragonstone... with which members of the Kings Guard? We know that Jamie was in Kings Landing. Riccard did not go to the tourney (there must always be a Stark in Winterfell)... but Brandon, Benjin, Ned, and Lyanna did... then Brandon, Lyanna, and Benjin went back to Winterfell? while Ned and Robert went back to the Vale? Then we had a few more months of winter... as winter set in with a vengeance after the false spring. So then we have the birth of Aegon on Dragonstone... Elia/Rhaegar learned they couldn't have any more children... so Rhaegar when to search out Lyanna? what... when Spring finally broke? and this would have lined up with about the time Brandon was supposed to marry Catlyn... so all of the Starks were on their way to River Run? (which Stark stayed in Winterfel?) So Rhaegar bumped into Lyanna on the road near the Inn at the Crossroads... and accompanied her to Winterfell... with Benjin too? .. and when Brandon heard about the "abduction" he rode straight for Kingslanding to the Red Keep where he demanded they return Lyanna? THEN the Mad King Aerys imprisoned Brandon and his lot... and called all of their fathers to Kings Landing... how long did THAT take? Riccard insisted on trial by combat... so THAT happened... meanwhile Ned had met up with Ashara in the Vale and learned about these tidings and took the long way round to Winterfell? while Robert and Jon Arryn went to sort out things in White Harbor... and then Robert took ship to the Stormlands to call HIS banners... and so where was Benjin during all of this? (was he the Stark who had to remain in Winterfell?) But during all of this, I want to know where all the Kings Guard were... specifically Rhaegar and those guarding Rhaegar...? Did Arthur, Gerald, and Oswald stay in Winterfell with Rhaegar and Lyanna? How does one do all of that secretly? There are so many unanswered questions... but meanwhile, Jamie stayed in Kings Landing... with Barristan and Lewin Martell... Wait... I'm missing a Kings Guard. We need to flush all this out to really figure out what happened... don't we?
The Kings Guard I know their R&B albums were so lit just by the lp cover with them in all white with swords.