The problem with 5 v 5 is that your team loses all momentum on offence if your tank gets picked off. With 6 v 6, you can still try to manage a winnable fight with a missing tank, or at least get a pick or two before your other tank returns to the field.
The other issue is no tank synergy, when you have two tanks one tank can cover the other's weakness, for example D.va is weak against zarya but if you pair her with a tank that can deal with zarya its much easier to play, this way the entire team can't just counterswap to kill d.va since they'd have weaknesses the other tank could cover
Remember being able to maybe kill a tank in a duel? Yeah. Now we get 1 giga-chad who, if they: pick the wrong hero, aren't as good as their counterpart, or want to troll, lord help you.
This is sorta true. At anything below top 500 this is 100% true but at high level play a good team can sway the momentum of a fight even after there tank has been picked off. This doenst matter tho because thats the 0.01% of the playerbase
@@Coreyahno It was but it wasn't completely losable. Now it pretty much is over if your tank is picked off or just at a different level/hero because there is 1 tank.
I think aaron misremembered tbf. if i remember correctly this was mentioned once before and it was 5 winstons hence quinston. maybe they tried both and thats where the confusion came from.
It’s not the fact is that they failed, it’s the fact is that they TRIED to make the game better… not just for US but for them as well. The people who are naturally complaining mainly about 6v6 are naturally the people who played it, but as well as other roles outside of Tank. People just didn’t want to play tank. And that’s not just Overwatch fault, it’s the community’s fault too. You see those Que times?? That was everyone running away from playing tank because they wanted to shoot people. So if we actually want 6v6 we need people to actually want to play Tank. Point blank and simple. Now that we have more players now, will that take affect, I don’t know, but we shall see… Over all, we have to make it known that we love tank, but maybe need to call it a different role.
@@ciach0_ lmaoooo nawww the snap will shut down servers.😂😂 6v6 is a good balance, but marvel rivals has actually did a good job of making certain “tanks” more aggressive and fun to play with out making them too slow at the same time.
@@ciach0_ But what would he use as a weapon? The Infinity Gauntlet using power stone to shoot, time stone defense or get back health or heal allies, space stone for mobility? Ultimate halve the health of the whole enemy team?
Considering the majority of my experience with Overwatch prior to Role Queue was "Five DPS and Me", yeah - this comes as no surprise. It's why I've repeatedly argued that Role Queue had a far larger impact on the game than 5v5 ever could.
best memory of that is hanamura 1st choke attack with 5 dps half of them dive and i'm picking support *and they were stacking while i solo queue. And they blamed me for not pushing through even 1st choke. And of course we lost defense even if they decided then that they need tank now
I'm so glad Aaron has opened up and acknowledged they're willing to make changes and see what community thinks. Is a promising start for OW redemption.
@@lhusuu7116 the devs have almost nothing to do with the price points tbf. They want to make the game better and thats their job. Cosmetic stuff is what the suits push. it should change for sure but no point in blaming the devs for that.
@@lhusuu7116it’s a free to play game expect some aggressive monetization. And actually apart from other ftp games that have pay to win overwatch stands apart from the rest. If people wanna waste their money on a skin that has no in game advantage who tf cares
@@christopherlee9026 "We're exploring how we can test different forms of 6v6 in the game to guage the results" Did YOU watch the video? Yeah it might not be for a while, nor may it become the default format like it was years prior, but 6v6 is indeed returning at some point, which is what many denied was even possible.
There was only 3 healers at Overwatch 1's launch, ana made it 4. We only had 5 Tanks... We already had 13 DAMAGE heroes, then split into offense and defense. Still, thats far more than both roles... and what did blizzard do? Add in more dps heroes :l
and they keep adding more useless dps heroes while there is just 10 "tanks" (if we count Doom and Ball as tanks lol) and even less supps... But they keep wondering why everybody prefers to play as DPS
"Support Heroes had to focus on healing" as it was part of there...role? Maybe they should of added better POTG showing a Mercy boosting/healing a single hero who gets a triple/team kill. Or Lucio saves all his teammates from an ultimate by using his or booping them away. Or better yet, End score cards that reveal everyone's best stat.
Overwatch was the only game I've ever really cared for and enjoyed the end match screen, battlefield, cod, and many other games never managed to make it an enjoyable experience like the score cards and voting did. Removing them to shove people into a battle pass screen was criminal
EA admitted their mistake with the apex battle pass and reverted it. Blizzard is trying out 6v6. Are… are companies actually listening to their player base? It can’t be…
@@WerewolfKweefit's not lol, it's gonna be like anthem vs destiny 2 again, everyone hypes it up as a competitor but nothing can save a game that has no soul
Omg I used to love watching you like 2/3 years ago I lost my old phone and TH-cam account and have never been able to remember your name I even watched OW content creators ranked to see if you were ever mentioned my happiness is through the roof this is generally the best day of my life lol Ik no one cares about this but man it has been a long time thank god 🙏🙏🙏
all they literally had to do is change the many shields and stuns as they did for 2 and leave everything else as is and then keep making maps, heroes and cool new modes. instead they wasted so many years and development just to go back to the way things were. i also want the old maps, they were some of the greatest imo, much more fun than anything new they launched.
So essentially what I'm gathering is they wanted to lower the queue times because tank was unpopular. Tank is still unpopular. Why not just fix the problem instead of the symptom?
The queue times is a bullshit excuse. Overwatch 1 was buy to play, overwatch 2 is f2p. The comparison these people make “oh queue times are better in 5v5.” Yea no shit the Devs are actually updating this f2p game unlike overwatch 1. I guarantee 6v6 will have better queue times with f2p model and October 2020 patch proved its possible.
@@ranjnijan3446 they’re still gonna complain that their engines and servers won’t be able to sustain 6v6 since it was made for 5v5 but they’re gonna keep milking excuses
it all really boils down to that fact that since day one they have put more focus on releasing dps characters (balanced or not). of course there are less tank players when the dps roster is usually twice the size of the tank roster. the math basically starts and stops there.
Havent played in a long time but removing 6v6 and going to 5v5 meant not only was there tons if presdure on the tank player, but it eliminated the use of the tanks i enjoyed like Ball and Zarya. Having a co tank made the game so much more fun. To me at least.
I stopped playing OW 2 years ago. Every few weeks, I'll quickly check on a stylosa video. If OVerwatch goes 6v6 again, I will come back in a heartbeat 💓
I mean theres still issues i have with ow2 aside from 5v5, but a balanced 6v6 (similar to that which existed some years back) would certainly be enticing
I love when stylosa says to sit back before diving into a long video. I literally pause the video and get a cup of tea every time he says it. I'm not even British
One of the reasons 6v6 had longer que times for tank was that they had much less options. Not only did you have less tanks to play you were further pidgeon holed to off and main. So you had like 4X more options playing DPS.
Afaik OW1 had less players queueing as tank and more as DPS, which made tank queues very quick, and DPS queues long because there was an overabundance of DPS players.
They buffed the living shit out of tank just to see the OW2 Streamers play Marvel rivals or any other game realising their potential and said: "Ait, time to get the playerbase back."
I think the best case scenario format will end up looking like this: 1-3-2 One of any 3 damage players can opt to choose tank Solo tank: health pool akin to the most recent patch. Once another tank is selected, their health is reduced to 6v6 levels in lieu of tank synergies The reason I think this would work is that the majority of damage players from casual to competitive to streamer to pro, historically have been found more than willing to flex off tank (dva, zarya, roadhog). Each game would have a 1 in 3 chance that a damage player is willing to swap to tank if their solo tank needs it. This ultimately is not as rigid as 2-2-2 or 5v5 but leaves the flexibility we saw in the pro meta before 2-2-2 where we saw goats finally being weakened by comps like solo ball, tracer, sombra with a 3rd dps like pharah or doomfist. We also used to see Winston Genji Tracer Soldier back when the game was young. These were composition formats that we saw quite frankly little to no opposition towards. Lastly, this allows the matchmaker a proportionate pool of players to pick from where clearly tank is the least popular, and damage is the most popular. I am hard pressed to believe that at least 1 of 3 damage players in a match would not be willing to swap tank if the composition called for it. And with proper balancing, 1-3-2 would still be viable as the current state of solo tank would probably feel more reasonable with a 3rd damage on the field.
Genuinley so nice to see overwatch trying things out again. The game has been stagnant for years and seeing the team trying out some more dynamic changes is incredibly refreshing. Hoping to see more of this in the future!
I personally am really happy that they're at least talking about it. Which is sad to think about, that we're happy with the bare minimum but here we are. I am really curious to see how the new heroes would work in a 6v6 format so pretty excited to see what they cook up for us.
It will be a while, but it will get tested. I hope they test it in such a way that it mirrors ow1 more accurately. We're so close to a really good OW version if they nail this 6v6 test.
In Overwatch I played support and off tank. When they made Overwatch 2 5v5 it made the game unplayable as a tank because everyone blamed the tank for the losses. I loved Overwatch but haven't played Overwatch 2 since season 1.
I feel like the performance issues is a bunch of BS. There already exists a bunch of 6v6 (and more) custom game modes for a while and they run perfectly fine on my potato laptop.
Honestly I think the best solution to add back in some of those moments 6v6 could bring, without massively increasing queue times, would be to introduce a varied role limit. Such as having 5v5, but allowing 1-2 tanks, 1-3 dps, 1-3 supports for example. This would bring back the potential of more varied comps, which still maintaining some structure with each role having a minimum and maximum count, and keep queue times reasonable, because it is still 5v5. Which from the blog post, it sounds like they plan to try exactly this idea in Season 13 Quickplay Hacked, so I am excited to see how that turns out.
I would unironically play tank much more if there was a second one. The problem with OW1 is that you had to pick meta and/or stack shields, and basically just turtle while your DPS picked off people. This was not a fun way to tank at all to me. However, I thoroughly enjoy the "brawler" type tank like Junker Queen but regularly encounter people who want the traditional barrier to fight behind and aren't happy to have a brawling tank, so I don't tank as much. If we had a second tank to help share the responsibility, I would definitely play the role more.
the problem was never the existence of 2 tanks, it was that there were too many shields in the game and too much cc. with the changes they did to characters like orisa and tanks getting cced less and all that, 2 tanks should be fine. i don't know how you could fix the queue times though but i'd rather wait a few more minutes than the entire game and the whole role of tank being unplayable.
I feel like this essay is missing the plot. A big aspect of this essay was "DPS are the largest portion of the game, so we hear you: here is a DPS/FPS focus for ow2! Que times are long because YOU the players choose to play at certain ratios." Uh...? People didn't play tank because tank was unfun/unbalanced at the time. If devs tweaked tank to feel more fun, more people would have played more tank?! It's not the players fault that ow1 was abandoned and left in an 'unfun to play tank' state. They need to fix tank role to FEEL fun. Ow2 was confirmed to be appealing to DPS in this essay. The additions make DPS and FPS gameplay more enjoyable, but at the expense of what made Overwatch so unique: MOBA+FPS+positioning+teamplay. Ow2 is now DPS pandering, support is DPS lite to encourage dps mains to play support, and Tank's identity has been butchered as now good aim matters more than bad positioning. In ow1 bad positioning mattered more than good aim. Good aim greatly helped, but bad positioning FORCED you to rely on teamates help to win. In ow2 you have DPS as king, then supports who are now rewarding dps for bad positioning via suzu, immortality, etc. AND EVERYONE has passive healing, making bad positioning matter even less! Ow2 Tanks are left without purpose now, because if bad positioning doesn't matter, then a Tank is pointless beyond being "loud" to distract dps. I feel like catering to dps only exasperates the Tank issue that had them switch to 5v5 in the first place! The only time I feel tank is fun in ow2 is brawl comps, bc you get speed boosted and are actually able to impact GOOD TEAM POSITIONING in a meaningful way like in ow1 + your hitbox in in the enemies faces so you are protecting your team from abilities/damage like in ow1. Ow2 is less about teamwork, more solo play, encouraging being out of the fight (global healing passive), and making the game much less accessible by focusing SO MUCH MORE on god like reaction times/aim/tracking. Tanks should be there to claim good positioning and protect you from incoming ability/damage, not be a bark but no bite hp wall that takes 5 min to finally kill. Supports should be there to save and embolden, not babysit and enable bad positioning in dps. DPS should be there to take out the enemies before they get to you, not oppressive clean sweeps. Here is how you fix it. Make it 6v6. Role lock per team: 3 at max, 1 at min. So 3 tank, 2 support, 1 dps. Or 2 2 2. Or 3 dps 2 tank 1 supp, idk! This allows for a variety of comps, without allowing GOATS, Etc. Allow players to CHANGE thier designated role mid game, within the 3 max 1 min role lock. After a minute or so, a qued tank could switch to support if needed. Give extra xp to those that keep within thier qued role, to encourage ppl to stay that role. This allows for team strats, trading roles even, but prevents a tank que from insta locking dps the minute they start the game. REMOVE GLOBAL HEALING PASSIVE. Dying sucks, but learn to play as a team to mitigate it! Remove "rewards bad positioning" abilities, like reworking suzu to not be invincibility, etc. Bad positioning NEEDS to be punished, for tank to work. A working tank role allows dps to shoot at tanks that aren't hp walls. Balance tanks to be 6v6 oriented. Tweak ability cooldowms, hp rstios, etc. But also shields. Ramattra is good bc he can punch through shields, but a Rein + sigma might suck in combination and need to be balanced.
@@verguco6051 it’s not the fact that nothing will change… it’s the fact is that graph shows what happens… the community destroyed 6v6 basically… Everyone wants to dps and not play the tank role. Everyone just wanted to go in and shoot, not play the heavy hitters. So if we really want 6v6 back then we have to have more players wanting to actually play the tank role.
@@Weightsss i played tank, i have right to complain and demand 6vs6? maybe if developers werent so bad and make tank fun to play, maybe if they stop making the game a call of duty clone
@@verguco6051 Which is what they have done actually. Back in OW1 all of the tanks we had were just tanks. We didn’t have any fun tanks like Doom(because he was damage then) Queen, Ram, etc. The tanks we have are fun as hell to play. So imagine with that they can do now in the 6v6 format. Too many tanks were just heavy and not like brawlers. Which I’m glad they’ve done since they released. But with more of a player base now, 6v6 will possibly work more. But we shall see.
@@Weightsss So right, and I do think changing what it means to Tanks to being more bulky brawlers rather than Brawler who needs a Support Tank definitely helps (also they can keep the passives which also balance things out)
You can already play 6v6 in custom games complete with all the new heroes and new VFX on OW2 maps without any issues so I'm not sure what all that fluff about "performance issues" was about.
YES!! YES!! YEEESSSSSSSS!!!!! I was playing the 6v6 custom (good luck finding a game.) and was able to play for a good hour. And MY GOD! IT WAS SOME OF THE MOST FUN IVE EVER HAD IN OVERWATCH! I played support the whole time, and the game doesnt feel like a heal bot spectator match.
4 v 4 v 4 game mode I thought would be a great chaotic game mode. Either control, TDM, or something. the only thing you'd have to worry about is trying to stop two teams from just teaming up on the one.
@@absolute-xero7502 he'll double down and cope himself out of the scene - he's proven himself to be disingenuous and narrow minded. Comparing people who prefer 6v6 to 5v5 flat earthers made me lose any respect I had for him
Well I am really happy that they will try something with 6v6, but what is the most concerning is what Aaron said about the engine. Quite literally the engine of OW2, which they build specifically for PVE that was canceled, the engine we are stuck in, cannot handle 6v6. The engine for a sequel is worse than for the original, and they took features away, and it can't even handle 6v6.
Yeah, I can't wrap my head around how they managed to fuck it up that bad. I get that the executives put them under insane constraints but it's still mind boggling nonetheless.
@@snaggiz We can't really blame the devs here, when exec tells you to do something by x date, you do it. At least now we know, they should have said it sooner, but I agree, it's mindblowing that the engine of the game is literally worse than in ow1. Even if they wanted to go back to 6v6 tomorrow and bring everything back, they simply can't. I am looking forward to what will they try, maybe they will cook. But having shit engine... that's probably the worst case scenario.
I mean the fact that 6v6 was too chaotic, I think it was a good thing. This was just perfect. Not without reason players loved custom gamemodes like 500% ults. Edit: lol they actually mentioned this.
My 3 main things for wanting 6v6 are : if one person dies in 5v5 your chances of winning a fight go down about 40%. Counterwatch SUCKS if you are tank, you basically get a tank counter picking you alongside DPS and support..idk I feel like if there is a support popping off their support changes not their whole team comp, but not for tank they will all try to collectively make your time playing hell unless you decide to stop playing over watch and start playing counter watch just to not get steamrolled with 3+ counter picks. And finally I would love to play double tank duo with my bruddah 🙏🏼
Honestly, as someone who has ALWAYS played OW quickplay (No role queue, you just load into the match and people pick whatever). The queues were never an issue. And frankly, oftentimes the team naturally gravitated to having a tank, healer etc. Yes you had matches where it was 5 dps and 1 healer, but it was still stupid fun. If you lost, well you know why you lost and there was little worry about it. No stress, just fun and play.
The fact that it took this long for them to realize that 90% of the current roster was DESIGNED for 6V6 is appalling. All of the tanks are currently designed to work better in 6v6 as either off tanks or primaries. They got rid of the double shield problem, and while it looks like they did a better job with queues, in reality they screwed up the queues - sure, one less tank is easier to matchmake, but the tank selection rate plummeted from 20 to 12 - so in reality its a marginal boost at best. The real changes are thanks to the matchmaking algorithm and boosted player base. This is just so upsetting. I miss OW1 😞
Did you not see the data they showed in the blog? The switch to 5v5 cut Que times in half. And they’ve continued to be that way to this day. So it wasn’t just a minor improvement.
@@joshuacollins9316 That was bullshit filtered data. It looks like they included GM and low bronze in the stats, which had hour long wait times, which manipulates the data to make their point. Now-adays, they just throw GMs in with Diamonds to avoid the issue, thus bringing the average down. As someone with over 10000 hours in OW1, you'd rarely have to wait more than a few minutes for a match, and tanks were instant queues.
@@bobothebob4716 dont forget them releasing ball orisa sigma as the newest tanks (all boring or niches) having twice as many dps than other roles, and metas being the most ass thing to play as a tank
@@bobothebob4716 It really isnt BS data lol. OW1 had a que time problem and anyone who played OW1 would tell you que times improved immensly for Ow2 (also I dont know why them including GM and Bronze is a bad thing because those ranks and player exist?)
@@funkycrawler619 the data was not fully accurate, ow1 had a paywall to play the game, ow2 is free, so a LOT more people have access to the game, which reduces queue times on top of other factors.
I will never understand the "Quick Que Time = Good" argument. I would gladly sit in que 15+ minutes if it meant my game was a solid, balanced, and fun experience. What's the point of getting into a game immediately if that game is a 1 sided slaughter every single time?
23:30 BECAUSE TANKS WERE BORING TO PLAY DURING OW1 AND THEY EVEN PROMOTED US TO PLAY POKE COMPS WITH SIGMA AND ORISA. NOW THERES MORE TANKS AND IT SEEMS LIKE THE DEVS ARE ACTUALLY MAKING MORE TANKS THAT ARE SHOOTERS RATHER THAN LIKE REIN STYLE TANKS. THERE WAS ALSO BARELY ANY TANK HEROES. JUST ADD MORE TANKS BRO AND FUN PLAYSTYLES. LOOK, IF YOU ARE GONNA HAVE A ROLE THAT HAS SO MANY HEROES IN IT, PEOPLE WILL CHOOSE THAT ROLE OVER OTHERS(DPS). COMPARED TO THE SMALL HERO POOL OF TANKS AND SUPPORTS. THIS ISNT ROCKET SCIENCE AARON.
Yea not enough people talking about how the tank and support roles were destroyed by hero design. Or how the devs destroyed it by trying to make it more appealing, support and tank were defined by having skill in their respective roles from rein shielding or pushing/attacking to how ana had to actually quick scope to heal, mercy and her movement allowing her to heal and lucio having to keep pace with a team to support them and than the devs slowly added heros that counter other heros or make certain jobs for these roles brain dead easy while giving that support or tank the capability to do their main jobs for free while being dps like bap just supports as an afterthought almost while being able to dish out crazy dps and bascially be a dps, and than as a support if you wanna just support the team as lucio, ana or mercy, well to bad they dont do everything like bap or kiri so play bap or kiri and at that point I rather play soldier 76 or genji, I dont go to the support role for watered down dps 😂
Or tanks being able to toss out a rein shield as an afterthought while they went off and played big dps, meanwhile reins choosing between swinging an inferior hammer or shielding 😂 Everyone wants to play rein but they're forced to play dps with a deployable rein shield and that's what really killed the roles I think, instead of adding new fun tanks and supports they just released ones that made the roles even worse.
@@d3cayingc0rpse yep like there was defined design philosophies where if you wanted to deal dmg or flank you had lucio for flanking and zen for dealing dps and ana also could slot in but wasnt nearly as good which is why she could heal and give ultity, but than bap comes out with better dmg capabilities than zen, which just shouldn't have happen, if you wanna give supports a dps option it has to be limited like how juno cant really defend herself that well outside of movement, and requires actual skill to heal. They HAVE to target these issue if they ever want the game to feel good again otherwise the formats not gonna solve anything in my opinion.
They destroyed pretty much every "high" moment and any gameplay synergy there was, especially for tanks, when they went to 5v5. Not just "some" like Aaron claims.
You say that, but there were plenty of games in OW1 with tank pairings that had absolutely nothing to do with each other. If every single game had moments of insane tank synergy, this would be a palpable impact, but if you’ve got tank pairings that don’t pair perfectly, then those games have no chance of a “high moment” anyway. It comes down to how many games actually had optimal tank pairings. With one less tank, DPS and support players now have more of that bandwidth to pop off too, and things are not so predicated on tank synergy. It’s not that black and white.
So many valid points I used to pick in arguments too. But 6v6 pink glasses wearers will still blindly scream that 6v6 is superior in every way. Good luck with the 12-30 min queue times on DPS! I prefer solo tanking over a possibility in 1 out of 10 matches that my other tank actually synergies and we make progress, unlike all the other times of just waiting for a miracle to happen so we can push to the point. This will be just as successful as open queue people wanted so badly and now beside some masochist DPS die hards nobody plays it.
these devs have to keep social engineering about everything it seems based on this post, as it reads like someone desperately trying to justify terrible design that 5v5 is and "blame every balance difficulty they had on 6v6 as a format" (and not themselves) first of all 5v5 isn't what overwatch "culminated" into, they just to the 5v5 format with ow2 (and they did THAT because ow2 had no reason to exist without the PvE they never finished, so it was done so that it looks like ow2 was some "big change" worthy of being called a sequel and not "cash shop implementation for overwatch 1" that it truly is) and then changed everything about overwatch so 5v5 can work: redoing tanks (ex. orisa), adding new passives (like "everyone passively heals"), changing existing mechanics (like armor), etc etc, basically rewriting the laws of nature of overwatch so that 5v5 is even playable or has any depth compared to 6v6 (hint: it still doesn't), and all of this originally happened because they didn't want to bother balancing the game for 6v6 and dealing with double barrier and goats and other problems (first time they forced 222 was obvious sign they gave up trying to balance the game and were willing to just force everyone to play the way they wanted them to) I also expect they will not be doing these 6v6 "tests" TO tell "whether 5v5 or 6v6 is better" by doing them fairly, but will 6v6 by implementing it in worst ways possible to "show how 5v5 is better than 6v6 in comparison" until they manage to kill the entire "6v6 crowd" and "prove they were right about 5v5", the best part: no one will know they are doing this and will be genuinely tricked by them here is how it will go: first guess: 6v6 with heroes currently rebalanced for 5v5 (proving "how 6v6 is worse") next: 6v6 with heroes that they spent 5 minutes randomly rebalancing without testing (proving "how 6v6 is worse") next: 6v6 rebalanced so that it is intentionally worse than 5v5 (proving "how 6v6 is worse") next: 6v6 rebalanced so that it plays more like 5v5 (proving "how 6v6 is just 5v5, therefore pointless") all this weaseling will be justified by "6v6 is just an experiment so we are focusing on maintaining 5v5 and trying 6v6 on the side", how about a challenge: add 6v6 exactly as it was in overwatch 1 and watch your entire playerbase switch over and never come back to 5v5? but at least they are acknowledging 6v6 after trying to pretend it doesn't exist for years and handwaving every mention of it, even if it is an obvious cop out and manipulation instead of a genuine reversion to what everyone knows was a superior game (overwatch 1), it's gotta look like they "know what they are doing" and it's sad that community has to consider 6v6 getting mentioned at all as some massive success
Im so happy they’re willing to do some semi open Q/6v6 thing. I think it’ll be something like you can swap to one other role a limited number of times or something
I love the gameplay of tanks, but I HATE being the only one on the team. I would play tank ALL THE TIME if there was a second tank. My main im OW2 is Brig specifically because I love playing the off-tank role on a team
5v5 matches are shorter now, which means that average queue time per hour may show a much lower decrease between 6v6 and 5v5. Also, since there are 2 supports per team and 1 tank per team, Stylosa is incorrect at 20:39 where he says that support and tank are not wildly different in respect to number of players, however if his theory is correct, there are half as many people queueing tank as support: not a similar quantity
Overwatch 2 is a different game to Overwatch 1 under the hood- it’s why the on fire system didn’t come back until a short while into OW2’s lifespan. In Jeff Kaplan’s own words (at least I think it was Jeff), OW1 was like a ball of sellotape. You can’t simply undo it, a lot of stuff had to be done from the ground up again.
Honestly this is what I wanted all along, give the option of 6v6 for those who want it but focus on 5v5 however bad or good it may become from here on. Best of both worlds for people, so them saying they’re considering some form of 6v6 modes and experimenting as such gives me a little hope
I read this before watching this video but thought it was INSANE that not once did they mention that their balancing was the root problem. dont forget about brig, goats, bap
I kinda think there should be an automated 'guild' system for forming teams that could remain open and schedule games while players do other stuff in the game or even away from their keyboards. This system would automate a lot of the process of finding a community of people to play organized games with and allow those players to remain together and scrim with other teams over several matches, and if one of the folks has to drop out, another could swap in. And any player could belong into multiple guild teams and swap in and out of team seamlessly, but because you would play with them for hours rather than just jump out after one game and never see them again, people would also feel more motivated to cooperate and learn and that would elevate OW from a 'random' jump-in, jump out' type of entertainment to a game with its own organized communities at every level and not just the highest ones.
The game engine is already able to support 5v5 or 6v6 anyway, they should just give options for the players... There could be simply matchmaking buttons like "5v5 only" or "6v6 only" or "I don't care, suprise me"
They need to account for the worst case scenarios though. 6v6, with all the most dramatic and flashy ults on the switch or weakest hardware the game can’t crash ANYWHERE. A workshop mode doesn’t need that kind of guarantee, most ppl are playing on decent pcs and it’s probably only 1 in 100 game edge cases that are causing issues which is fine in a small workshop mode but not in the base game
My solution? Skip 6v6 entirely and go straight to 7v7. 2 tanks - 3 dps - 3 healers Solves the dps queue times issue, more dps players get to play dps , and gives the structure of 2 tanks that the other players want as well.
They also used to have DPS split into "Offence" and "Defence" sections when the game launched. I remember people used to flame people who picked Widow on Offence for Kings Row just because she was categorized as a "Defence" DPS hero
Based on the issues Aaron addressed I'm wondering if 6v6 with 1 locked tank, 2 locked healers, and 3 flex might work. Of course something would have to be done about stacking tanks, maybe only allowing 1 of the flex to play the role at a time. This way you reduce queue times by allowing more DPS but give the team flexibility to allow a second tank.
Doesn't this 6v6 arc remember you guys of something? The higher ups shut down Overwatch and then someone made a video saying that we have to do something to get the game we loved back and now here we are going back to where we started, this is quite literally the Overwatch lore.
It won't happen overnight, but give us more tanks to choose from. There are currently 18 dps and 12 tank and 10 healers to choose from. Mauga is the perfect example of a brawl dps. What about making Brig into a proper brawl healer and moving her to tank? Entice people to play tank and they will have a reason to not automatically click dps or healer.
I always thought why dont they just bring back the experimental card and keep 6v6 in there to see how things work? Also the game needs a Kings Row 24/7 mode in arcde.
Q-times graph only shows the numbers and not the reasons why we got to that situation. Those reasons are: Bobby kotick OWL Full development of OW2 with barely any content or patches for OW1
Its crazy becuase the game did have alot of issues in 6v6 and thats probabaly why i was indifferent to giving 5v5 a try but it taking so long to even have this discussion is crazy. I do think we need to go back but im also of the opinion that it isnt 6v6 but a shift in hoe they approach hero design the last 5 years thats been the issue. Overwatch 1 wasjt really designed with a competitive landscape in mind. 2 was while also trying to maintain the identity of many characters. Something's gotta give and they need to pick a side because once we go back to 6v6 we're going to have a lot of issues.
The reason for 5v5 wasnt for balance to the core game or to get rid of double shield, it was to lower que times for dps cause the ow team kept developing new herps for that role leaving tank with hardly any new toys to play with for the entirety of ow 1 life cycle.
I'm glad they are looking at other ways to address queue times. For me personally, I now tend to stick with open queue as I mainly play support but like flexing to an off tank role when needed which happened on occasion in OW1. Role queue pushed me away from tank a bit but I'd still queue it on occasion during OW1. When it went 1 tank in OW2 it became a nope, I don't want to be the focus and have that pressure. I will only play tank in open queue.
OW, 6v6, Double shield, and people argued at the time that 5v5, losing that 2 player would reduce visual clutter. Fast forward, Tank engine 2 comes out, put together by the bottom barrel compared to the Veterans that made the original engine that had way better fidelity + Tank engine 2 was made for PVE purposes so it has a bunch of fancy effects that looks eye scorching in PVP (Case in point; Sojurns E) to put it bluntly, our arguments were thrown out the window with the thrown out PVE incentivized Engine changes that made the visual experience worst, that we in the first place argued as a reason why 5v5 would be better. If 6v6 was already bad in terms of visual clutter with the OG master class engine, then it will be terrifyingly bad with the scuffed "Updated" one. I do not want 6v6 with our current fidelity conditions. I do not want 6v6 until they fix the hit boxes that was changed around March/April. Friends quit OW because of that saying, they can just play R6 or CS where hitboxes actually matter. I do not want 6v6 until they fix the already broken matchmaking system. Focus on the game guys that is at hand and is intentionally made worst and worst over time at a technical level. Normal players don't care about the format, they care about gameplay, how is their gameplay affected, gameplay experience is king.
I think the main reason most players avoid the tank role is because they tend to not feel as rewarding to players as something like dps. As someone who preferred tank and supports. My issue with the 5v5 format is that it puts so much pressure on the tank to perform well over other roles.
aaron forgot to mention conveniently that game was paywwalled and fucking abandoned, thats why queue times were long, if 5vs5 have better queue times is only thanks to being free to play
Ppl forget that OW1 had a very strict matchmaker that kept MMR similar. OW2 had the same MM at season 1 which was when games felt more balanced. Queue times headed back to OW1s toward the end of the season and they loosened the f out of it. This is why queue times feel quick but games are so stomp heavy.
@Stylosa I think a good fix for 5v5 would be to get rid of a dps and make an "off tank role" rework a few dps into off tanks, like Reaper, Cass and Mei are basically almost there. Raise their health a little bit, increase their hitboxes and boom. Now there is another role to take some aggro away from the tank. The off tank role would basically be a hybrid between a tank and dps. So it would go 1 tank, 1 off tank, 1 dps, 2 supports. I think that could work...maybe *Shrug* lol
They finally bring something back that people have wanted and shouldn't have ever been taken out as soon as Marvel Rivals is approaching? who would've thought... not me. too late
Oh look! Yet another reversion to an overwatch 1 mechanic! What an amazing sequel! Thank god they decided to make a sequel with several downgrades and broken promises instead of supporting the last game!
The devs are trying their best and being open with feedbacks. Maybe the community needs to be a bit more respectful, starting with you. I am not mad at the devs. it's just a hard game design problem.
They would need to. Anyone who is clammoring for 6v6 to come back hasn't had to deal with double shields. Hell, they haven't had to deal with 5v6 where most often than naught the 5 team loses instantly unless your a high ELO, where you MIGHT be able to deal with it. I think people are also forgetting about the queue times which improved exponentially with 5v5.
@@ivenstorm lmfao dude there is no way ur saying "double shield" as a reason in the year 2024 Orisa got reworked.. she and sigma were the only tanks that were bad when combined, it wasn't just shields, it was the fact that they had shields, AND Fortify/Grasp, AND Brig AND bap healing tf out of them, with Bap Lamp too
@@bambampewpew32 they also forget double shield was so hard to execute and required all members of the team to be in perfect sync you'd only see that in top 500 games, at most ranks you could do whatever. Unlike nowadays that Orisa or mauga meta becomes meta at every rank and the most optimal play in bronze is the same in gm
They should just release Overwatch 3. Its gonna be the exact game as 1 and they can say theyre being innovative and bold. We can all collectively forget 2 ever existed. Promise. Everyone wins.
Most of the time, those who support 6v6 neglect to mention how grindy it was; poking through chokes until ults break out and THEN attackers can push with half (or more) of the enemy team dead. Many games were so slow and it felt like only the tanks had impact, but it was mostly just being the protector, and taking vs holding space. Rotating through defensive cool downs from tank and support roles. Meanwhile 5v5 offers too much pick potential and chaos. People flying around with mobility, deaths in your Frontline, backline, flanks, everywhere. Manage your cool downs, check your positioning, and it can be overwhelmingly fast! Lastly and separately, I worry not knowing what I prefer. I think it boils down to what is more fun? Will the fresher thing always be more fun? Should it be what makes the least popular role the most fun? Who knows
Brother it is not fast shooting into a 100% life steal Mauga blocking choke, with an illyari pylon out of sight. You swapped the sheilds for the health bars
@@j.jonahjoestar7924 I'm talking about the original Overwatch, King's Row or Volskaya Industries or whatever you choose, but you're on attack, where everyone throws everything through that first little choke only for nothing to die. Compare that to Overwatch 2 where yeah, you're shooting mauga and it's slow and he won't die, but as soon as Ana lands a grenade on you or a good Sombra/tracer/echo gets behind and snatches up your supports, the points is captured so quickly after! With two tanks, the other or both can step up and stop a push before any pick matters. 6v6 felt like, in it's low moments specifically (which doesn't happen as much or in the same way during 5v5) that you can't play, push to the objective, get a meaningful kill, or anything
I personally loved the slow games of overwatch 1 and trying to push through strong defenses, but I still enjoy the brawl style of ow2 as well; it would be nice to have both and I know that overwatch has more than enough man power and money to do so, but I doubt they will
I feel like 5v5 isn’t healthy for the game. Like no matter what the OW team says 5v5 will always be limiting because the game is either in the chokehold of infinite sustain tanks or it’s breaking the back of tanks. You either have giga tanks or tanks that fall over. And the worst part is that the supports enable these tanks to just do whatever. 6v6 I feel wasn’t under the iron boot of tanks. Double shield was a balancing issue and (imo) more of an issue from support being too strong. I feel like 6v6 didn’t encourage the Uber Kiju vs Kiju Mauga brainrot and encouraged more team play.
I love playing Tank but it is horrible sometimes the "Focus the tank" think is just crazy. I wind up just playing corners I never feel like a tank. Having another player able to pull aggro even for a split second is what I believe will help. Tank is my favorite and least played role.
Individual skill expression was better at 6v6 format. All the things that were wrong with 6v6 are now gone, double shield gone, hard cc stuns gone! The reason why nobody wanted to play tank was because of double shield which also made dps q times long. Q times are still having that issue today. So, yes 6v6 needs to come back period or this game will forever feel like a chore.
The problem with 5 v 5 is that your team loses all momentum on offence if your tank gets picked off. With 6 v 6, you can still try to manage a winnable fight with a missing tank, or at least get a pick or two before your other tank returns to the field.
The other issue is no tank synergy, when you have two tanks one tank can cover the other's weakness, for example D.va is weak against zarya but if you pair her with a tank that can deal with zarya its much easier to play, this way the entire team can't just counterswap to kill d.va since they'd have weaknesses the other tank could cover
Remember being able to maybe kill a tank in a duel? Yeah. Now we get 1 giga-chad who, if they: pick the wrong hero, aren't as good as their counterpart, or want to troll, lord help you.
Losing a tank was still a huge disadvantage even in 6v6.
This is sorta true. At anything below top 500 this is 100% true but at high level play a good team can sway the momentum of a fight even after there tank has been picked off. This doenst matter tho because thats the 0.01% of the playerbase
@@Coreyahno It was but it wasn't completely losable. Now it pretty much is over if your tank is picked off or just at a different level/hero because there is 1 tank.
How that 5 zenyatta and 1 winston team didn' t get called Win-yatta" is beyond me
I think aaron misremembered tbf. if i remember correctly this was mentioned once before and it was 5 winstons hence quinston. maybe they tried both and thats where the confusion came from.
Even if 6v6 doesn't return as THE format the fact that they are finally willing to try it is an immense W
As long as they actually balance it and not just use open queue stats
No it will return it’s the only way to save this game.
Dude this games dead asf. 6v6 won't change that
@@dmackinteambreezy9974 Only one way to find out
@@blublu6841 xd
6v6: you could not live with your own failure, where did that bring you? Back to me.
IT WAS ME, DIO
speaking of thanos, I'm waiting till they add him to marvel rivals
It’s not the fact is that they failed, it’s the fact is that they TRIED to make the game better… not just for US but for them as well.
The people who are naturally complaining mainly about 6v6 are naturally the people who played it, but as well as other roles outside of Tank.
People just didn’t want to play tank. And that’s not just Overwatch fault, it’s the community’s fault too.
You see those Que times?? That was everyone running away from playing tank because they wanted to shoot people.
So if we actually want 6v6 we need people to actually want to play Tank.
Point blank and simple.
Now that we have more players now, will that take affect, I don’t know, but we shall see…
Over all, we have to make it known that we love tank, but maybe need to call it a different role.
@@ciach0_ lmaoooo nawww the snap will shut down servers.😂😂 6v6 is a good balance, but marvel rivals has actually did a good job of making certain “tanks” more aggressive and fun to play with out making them too slow at the same time.
@@ciach0_ But what would he use as a weapon? The Infinity Gauntlet using power stone to shoot, time stone defense or get back health or heal allies, space stone for mobility? Ultimate halve the health of the whole enemy team?
Considering the majority of my experience with Overwatch prior to Role Queue was "Five DPS and Me", yeah - this comes as no surprise. It's why I've repeatedly argued that Role Queue had a far larger impact on the game than 5v5 ever could.
best memory of that is hanamura 1st choke attack with 5 dps half of them dive and i'm picking support *and they were stacking while i solo queue. And they blamed me for not pushing through even 1st choke.
And of course we lost defense even if they decided then that they need tank now
I'm so glad Aaron has opened up and acknowledged they're willing to make changes and see what community thinks. Is a promising start for OW redemption.
I want to believe that, but they did just release a £35 single weapon skin. For every step forward there are equal steps back.
@@lhusuu7116 the devs have almost nothing to do with the price points tbf. They want to make the game better and thats their job. Cosmetic stuff is what the suits push. it should change for sure but no point in blaming the devs for that.
@@lhusuu7116 League of Legends released a £500 skin pack for Ahri, it's unfortunately normal in f2p models that cosmetics are overpriced.
@@lhusuu7116it’s a free to play game expect some aggressive monetization. And actually apart from other ftp games that have pay to win overwatch stands apart from the rest. If people wanna waste their money on a skin that has no in game advantage who tf cares
^ not counting mauga launch lol that was prolly the only instance of “pay to win” and it was a mistake
"its never coming back, stop talking about it" crowd looking REAL dumb right now
Did you watch the video? They're not bringing it back.
@@christopherlee9026did you? They literally are
Fr(im part of the people that kept "whining" to bring back ow1)
@@christopherlee9026for now :)
@@christopherlee9026 "We're exploring how we can test different forms of 6v6 in the game to guage the results"
Did YOU watch the video? Yeah it might not be for a while, nor may it become the default format like it was years prior, but 6v6 is indeed returning at some point, which is what many denied was even possible.
There was only 3 healers at Overwatch 1's launch, ana made it 4. We only had 5 Tanks...
We already had 13 DAMAGE heroes, then split into offense and defense. Still, thats far more than both roles...
and what did blizzard do?
Add in more dps heroes :l
and they keep adding more useless dps heroes while there is just 10 "tanks" (if we count Doom and Ball as tanks lol) and even less supps...
But they keep wondering why everybody prefers to play as DPS
"Support Heroes had to focus on healing" as it was part of there...role?
Maybe they should of added better POTG showing a Mercy boosting/healing a single hero who gets a triple/team kill.
Or Lucio saves all his teammates from an ultimate by using his or booping them away.
Or better yet, End score cards that reveal everyone's best stat.
I miss that!
Exactly, all people wanna play is dps.
Overwatch was the only game I've ever really cared for and enjoyed the end match screen, battlefield, cod, and many other games never managed to make it an enjoyable experience like the score cards and voting did.
Removing them to shove people into a battle pass screen was criminal
Nah keep the scorecards I wanna know who’s doing dogshit on my team💀💀
@@raiden4613 if you don’t see a teammate name for there role. They didn’t do enough
EA admitted their mistake with the apex battle pass and reverted it. Blizzard is trying out 6v6. Are… are companies actually listening to their player base? It can’t be…
No, they are listening to other companies and Marvel Rivals is getting A LOT of play in early access...
@@WerewolfKweefit's not lol, it's gonna be like anthem vs destiny 2 again, everyone hypes it up as a competitor but nothing can save a game that has no soul
If 6v6 comes back, I come back, so it looks like some OW is in my future
@@sieg5857 same
I exclusively play on the 6v6 discord rn.
@@BigMamaBlackcan I join ? I can’t find any custom games
And when 6v6 comes back will you be the second tank that nobody ever wanted to play which caused the switch to 5v5? Lmao stfu
Welcome back , 5v5 or 6v6 the world could always use more HEROS!!🎉❤
Omg I used to love watching you like 2/3 years ago I lost my old phone and TH-cam account and have never been able to remember your name I even watched OW content creators ranked to see if you were ever mentioned my happiness is through the roof this is generally the best day of my life lol Ik no one cares about this but man it has been a long time thank god 🙏🙏🙏
If only Blizzard had not wasted a total of 6 years on PVE and 5v5. We would have so many new heroes
What Pve?
all they literally had to do is change the many shields and stuns as they did for 2 and leave everything else as is and then keep making maps, heroes and cool new modes. instead they wasted so many years and development just to go back to the way things were. i also want the old maps, they were some of the greatest imo, much more fun than anything new they launched.
if blizz never abandoned ow1 we would never had 5v5 and this shit to begin with
So essentially what I'm gathering is they wanted to lower the queue times because tank was unpopular. Tank is still unpopular. Why not just fix the problem instead of the symptom?
Does that mean you’ll play tank?
@@tetrastreamxvii I used to queue all in OW1. Now I queue not tank.
@@matthewsukkau382 tank is way worse now. i loved playing tank, now it's literally unplayable for me.
Just don’t half ass 6v6 like they did with PvE and balance heroes accordingly. I can deal with queue times if the quality of matches are better
Exactly
The queue times is a bullshit excuse. Overwatch 1 was buy to play, overwatch 2 is f2p. The comparison these people make “oh queue times are better in 5v5.” Yea no shit the Devs are actually updating this f2p game unlike overwatch 1. I guarantee 6v6 will have better queue times with f2p model and October 2020 patch proved its possible.
@@ranjnijan3446 they’re still gonna complain that their engines and servers won’t be able to sustain 6v6 since it was made for 5v5 but they’re gonna keep milking excuses
@@ranjnijan3446 did you watch the video? the queue times arent about total player count.
it all really boils down to that fact that since day one they have put more focus on releasing dps characters (balanced or not). of course there are less tank players when the dps roster is usually twice the size of the tank roster. the math basically starts and stops there.
I've been repeating this since 2018 but it seems like something as obvious and logical is too hard to understand for most ppl, including blizzard
Havent played in a long time but removing 6v6 and going to 5v5 meant not only was there tons if presdure on the tank player, but it eliminated the use of the tanks i enjoyed like Ball and Zarya. Having a co tank made the game so much more fun. To me at least.
I stopped playing OW 2 years ago. Every few weeks, I'll quickly check on a stylosa video. If OVerwatch goes 6v6 again, I will come back in a heartbeat 💓
Same
I mean theres still issues i have with ow2 aside from 5v5, but a balanced 6v6 (similar to that which existed some years back) would certainly be enticing
I love when stylosa says to sit back before diving into a long video. I literally pause the video and get a cup of tea every time he says it. I'm not even British
tldr, they should have just stuck with continuing to develop OW1 whilst it was at its peak. All of OW2 has been an exercise in futility.
This needs to be top comment
correct.
Not for them they are making more cash because of the switch since they made it ftp + have crazy microtransactions
Yes Overwatch 2 was made for no reason and because of that I quit.
not futile for the big wigs who made a bag from the marketing of ow2 and the shop and battle-pass T-T.
One of the reasons 6v6 had longer que times for tank was that they had much less options. Not only did you have less tanks to play you were further pidgeon holed to off and main. So you had like 4X more options playing DPS.
Afaik OW1 had less players queueing as tank and more as DPS, which made tank queues very quick, and DPS queues long because there was an overabundance of DPS players.
So we getting OW1 back with less features and more cash grabs? Let’s go!!
They buffed the living shit out of tank just to see the OW2 Streamers play Marvel rivals or any other game realising their potential and said: "Ait, time to get the playerbase back."
9v9 is what we need
In a arcade mod with defende your castle or something but not in qp it's gonna be like total mayhem (literally)
@@Blueskies_7 40v40 with the entire roster at once
@lunamptv that's gonna crush most of the player base pc's but can be nice :)
Team Fortress, 14v14
12v12 : )
In rivals you’re able to ask teammates for help or to switch without fear of being banned !!
That right there is a game changer
I think the best case scenario format will end up looking like this:
1-3-2
One of any 3 damage players can opt to choose tank
Solo tank: health pool akin to the most recent patch.
Once another tank is selected, their health is reduced to 6v6 levels in lieu of tank synergies
The reason I think this would work is that the majority of damage players from casual to competitive to streamer to pro, historically have been found more than willing to flex off tank (dva, zarya, roadhog). Each game would have a 1 in 3 chance that a damage player is willing to swap to tank if their solo tank needs it.
This ultimately is not as rigid as 2-2-2 or 5v5 but leaves the flexibility we saw in the pro meta before 2-2-2 where we saw goats finally being weakened by comps like solo ball, tracer, sombra with a 3rd dps like pharah or doomfist. We also used to see Winston Genji Tracer Soldier back when the game was young. These were composition formats that we saw quite frankly little to no opposition towards.
Lastly, this allows the matchmaker a proportionate pool of players to pick from where clearly tank is the least popular, and damage is the most popular. I am hard pressed to believe that at least 1 of 3 damage players in a match would not be willing to swap tank if the composition called for it. And with proper balancing, 1-3-2 would still be viable as the current state of solo tank would probably feel more reasonable with a 3rd damage on the field.
Genuinley so nice to see overwatch trying things out again. The game has been stagnant for years and seeing the team trying out some more dynamic changes is incredibly refreshing. Hoping to see more of this in the future!
I’d play tank again if they brought back 6v6
I personally am really happy that they're at least talking about it. Which is sad to think about, that we're happy with the bare minimum but here we are.
I am really curious to see how the new heroes would work in a 6v6 format so pretty excited to see what they cook up for us.
The transparency, communication, and respect for the community are very refreshing.
6v6! Now I can come back to Overwatch!
@papishow if its gonna actually happen
@@mercyrezme6468 I remain hopeful
It will be a while, but it will get tested. I hope they test it in such a way that it mirrors ow1 more accurately. We're so close to a really good OW version if they nail this 6v6 test.
Talk is cheap, wait for them to actually do something and in the meantime, play other games. This isn't a trustworthy developer at all.
@@WerewolfKweef You are so right about that.
In Overwatch I played support and off tank. When they made Overwatch 2 5v5 it made the game unplayable as a tank because everyone blamed the tank for the losses.
I loved Overwatch but haven't played Overwatch 2 since season 1.
I feel like the performance issues is a bunch of BS. There already exists a bunch of 6v6 (and more) custom game modes for a while and they run perfectly fine on my potato laptop.
Honestly I think the best solution to add back in some of those moments 6v6 could bring, without massively increasing queue times, would be to introduce a varied role limit. Such as having 5v5, but allowing 1-2 tanks, 1-3 dps, 1-3 supports for example. This would bring back the potential of more varied comps, which still maintaining some structure with each role having a minimum and maximum count, and keep queue times reasonable, because it is still 5v5. Which from the blog post, it sounds like they plan to try exactly this idea in Season 13 Quickplay Hacked, so I am excited to see how that turns out.
I would unironically play tank much more if there was a second one. The problem with OW1 is that you had to pick meta and/or stack shields, and basically just turtle while your DPS picked off people. This was not a fun way to tank at all to me. However, I thoroughly enjoy the "brawler" type tank like Junker Queen but regularly encounter people who want the traditional barrier to fight behind and aren't happy to have a brawling tank, so I don't tank as much. If we had a second tank to help share the responsibility, I would definitely play the role more.
the problem was never the existence of 2 tanks, it was that there were too many shields in the game and too much cc. with the changes they did to characters like orisa and tanks getting cced less and all that, 2 tanks should be fine. i don't know how you could fix the queue times though but i'd rather wait a few more minutes than the entire game and the whole role of tank being unplayable.
Uncle Aaron reviving me w these 6v6 backshots. Thankyou Aaron.
7 v 7 is the solution. 3 dps 2 tank 2 support.
The new OW2 engine can't even handle 6v6.
7v7 is never gonna happen.
@@knighthood91 "technology isn't there yet" -people with technology that is in fact way past "there" already
I'm glad aaron did this. as a 6v6 fan the transparency and openness of the blog gives me hope for franchise
Sty as the first to cover this is kinda insane.
@@liamjamesharris Your Overwatch covered it too
jay3 did it live before both of them
I feel like this essay is missing the plot. A big aspect of this essay was "DPS are the largest portion of the game, so we hear you: here is a DPS/FPS focus for ow2! Que times are long because YOU the players choose to play at certain ratios." Uh...?
People didn't play tank because tank was unfun/unbalanced at the time. If devs tweaked tank to feel more fun, more people would have played more tank?! It's not the players fault that ow1 was abandoned and left in an 'unfun to play tank' state. They need to fix tank role to FEEL fun.
Ow2 was confirmed to be appealing to DPS in this essay. The additions make DPS and FPS gameplay more enjoyable, but at the expense of what made Overwatch so unique: MOBA+FPS+positioning+teamplay.
Ow2 is now DPS pandering, support is DPS lite to encourage dps mains to play support, and Tank's identity has been butchered as now good aim matters more than bad positioning.
In ow1 bad positioning mattered more than good aim. Good aim greatly helped, but bad positioning FORCED you to rely on teamates help to win.
In ow2 you have DPS as king, then supports who are now rewarding dps for bad positioning via suzu, immortality, etc. AND EVERYONE has passive healing, making bad positioning matter even less! Ow2 Tanks are left without purpose now, because if bad positioning doesn't matter, then a Tank is pointless beyond being "loud" to distract dps. I feel like catering to dps only exasperates the Tank issue that had them switch to 5v5 in the first place! The only time I feel tank is fun in ow2 is brawl comps, bc you get speed boosted and are actually able to impact GOOD TEAM POSITIONING in a meaningful way like in ow1 + your hitbox in in the enemies faces so you are protecting your team from abilities/damage like in ow1.
Ow2 is less about teamwork, more solo play, encouraging being out of the fight (global healing passive), and making the game much less accessible by focusing SO MUCH MORE on god like reaction times/aim/tracking.
Tanks should be there to claim good positioning and protect you from incoming ability/damage, not be a bark but no bite hp wall that takes 5 min to finally kill. Supports should be there to save and embolden, not babysit and enable bad positioning in dps. DPS should be there to take out the enemies before they get to you, not oppressive clean sweeps.
Here is how you fix it.
Make it 6v6.
Role lock per team: 3 at max, 1 at min. So 3 tank, 2 support, 1 dps. Or 2 2 2. Or 3 dps 2 tank 1 supp, idk! This allows for a variety of comps, without allowing GOATS, Etc.
Allow players to CHANGE thier designated role mid game, within the 3 max 1 min role lock. After a minute or so, a qued tank could switch to support if needed. Give extra xp to those that keep within thier qued role, to encourage ppl to stay that role. This allows for team strats, trading roles even, but prevents a tank que from insta locking dps the minute they start the game.
REMOVE GLOBAL HEALING PASSIVE. Dying sucks, but learn to play as a team to mitigate it!
Remove "rewards bad positioning" abilities, like reworking suzu to not be invincibility, etc. Bad positioning NEEDS to be punished, for tank to work. A working tank role allows dps to shoot at tanks that aren't hp walls.
Balance tanks to be 6v6 oriented. Tweak ability cooldowms, hp rstios, etc. But also shields. Ramattra is good bc he can punch through shields, but a Rein + sigma might suck in combination and need to be balanced.
They are more open to change than I expected!
to test, nothing will change
@@verguco6051 it’s not the fact that nothing will change… it’s the fact is that graph shows what happens… the community destroyed 6v6 basically…
Everyone wants to dps and not play the tank role.
Everyone just wanted to go in and shoot, not play the heavy hitters.
So if we really want 6v6 back then we have to have more players wanting to actually play the tank role.
@@Weightsss i played tank, i have right to complain and demand 6vs6? maybe if developers werent so bad and make tank fun to play, maybe if they stop making the game a call of duty clone
@@verguco6051 Which is what they have done actually. Back in OW1 all of the tanks we had were just tanks. We didn’t have any fun tanks like Doom(because he was damage then) Queen, Ram, etc.
The tanks we have are fun as hell to play. So imagine with that they can do now in the 6v6 format. Too many tanks were just heavy and not like brawlers. Which I’m glad they’ve done since they released.
But with more of a player base now, 6v6 will possibly work more. But we shall see.
@@Weightsss So right, and I do think changing what it means to Tanks to being more bulky brawlers rather than Brawler who needs a Support Tank definitely helps (also they can keep the passives which also balance things out)
You can already play 6v6 in custom games complete with all the new heroes and new VFX on OW2 maps without any issues so I'm not sure what all that fluff about "performance issues" was about.
YES!! YES!! YEEESSSSSSSS!!!!!
I was playing the 6v6 custom (good luck finding a game.) and was able to play for a good hour. And MY GOD! IT WAS SOME OF THE MOST FUN IVE EVER HAD IN OVERWATCH!
I played support the whole time, and the game doesnt feel like a heal bot spectator match.
4 v 4 v 4 game mode I thought would be a great chaotic game mode. Either control, TDM, or something. the only thing you'd have to worry about is trying to stop two teams from just teaming up on the one.
Jake, Freedo and Custa shaking in their boots rn 😂😂😂
Literally laughing at those bums
Just wait, Freedo is about to start acting like he was never pro 5v5 when it's shown to be inferior.
@@absolute-xero7502 he'll double down and cope himself out of the scene - he's proven himself to be disingenuous and narrow minded. Comparing people who prefer 6v6 to 5v5 flat earthers made me lose any respect I had for him
Cause they know even if they stick with 5v5 most of the tank players gonna head over to 6v6.
@@Cruxis_Angel Yea, the 6v6 discord is pretty much majority tank players
Well I am really happy that they will try something with 6v6, but what is the most concerning is what Aaron said about the engine. Quite literally the engine of OW2, which they build specifically for PVE that was canceled, the engine we are stuck in, cannot handle 6v6. The engine for a sequel is worse than for the original, and they took features away, and it can't even handle 6v6.
Consoles players been yelling at this since the lunch of ow2
I blame the switch and last gen consoles
Yeah, I can't wrap my head around how they managed to fuck it up that bad. I get that the executives put them under insane constraints but it's still mind boggling nonetheless.
@Cruxis_Angel the problem is the switch and last gen consoles ran overwatch 1 perfectly, so why would they make the engine worse just for them?
@@snaggiz We can't really blame the devs here, when exec tells you to do something by x date, you do it. At least now we know, they should have said it sooner, but I agree, it's mindblowing that the engine of the game is literally worse than in ow1. Even if they wanted to go back to 6v6 tomorrow and bring everything back, they simply can't. I am looking forward to what will they try, maybe they will cook. But having shit engine... that's probably the worst case scenario.
I mean the fact that 6v6 was too chaotic, I think it was a good thing. This was just perfect. Not without reason players loved custom gamemodes like 500% ults.
Edit: lol they actually mentioned this.
My 3 main things for wanting 6v6 are : if one person dies in 5v5 your chances of winning a fight go down about 40%. Counterwatch SUCKS if you are tank, you basically get a tank counter picking you alongside DPS and support..idk I feel like if there is a support popping off their support changes not their whole team comp, but not for tank they will all try to collectively make your time playing hell unless you decide to stop playing over watch and start playing counter watch just to not get steamrolled with 3+ counter picks. And finally I would love to play double tank duo with my bruddah 🙏🏼
Honestly, as someone who has ALWAYS played OW quickplay (No role queue, you just load into the match and people pick whatever). The queues were never an issue.
And frankly, oftentimes the team naturally gravitated to having a tank, healer etc.
Yes you had matches where it was 5 dps and 1 healer, but it was still stupid fun. If you lost, well you know why you lost and there was little worry about it. No stress, just fun and play.
The fact that it took this long for them to realize that 90% of the current roster was DESIGNED for 6V6 is appalling. All of the tanks are currently designed to work better in 6v6 as either off tanks or primaries. They got rid of the double shield problem, and while it looks like they did a better job with queues, in reality they screwed up the queues - sure, one less tank is easier to matchmake, but the tank selection rate plummeted from 20 to 12 - so in reality its a marginal boost at best. The real changes are thanks to the matchmaking algorithm and boosted player base. This is just so upsetting. I miss OW1 😞
Did you not see the data they showed in the blog? The switch to 5v5 cut Que times in half. And they’ve continued to be that way to this day.
So it wasn’t just a minor improvement.
@@joshuacollins9316 That was bullshit filtered data. It looks like they included GM and low bronze in the stats, which had hour long wait times, which manipulates the data to make their point. Now-adays, they just throw GMs in with Diamonds to avoid the issue, thus bringing the average down. As someone with over 10000 hours in OW1, you'd rarely have to wait more than a few minutes for a match, and tanks were instant queues.
@@bobothebob4716 dont forget them releasing ball orisa sigma as the newest tanks (all boring or niches) having twice as many dps than other roles, and metas being the most ass thing to play as a tank
@@bobothebob4716 It really isnt BS data lol. OW1 had a que time problem and anyone who played OW1 would tell you que times improved immensly for Ow2 (also I dont know why them including GM and Bronze is a bad thing because those ranks and player exist?)
@@funkycrawler619 the data was not fully accurate, ow1 had a paywall to play the game, ow2 is free, so a LOT more people have access to the game, which reduces queue times on top of other factors.
I will never understand the "Quick Que Time = Good" argument.
I would gladly sit in que 15+ minutes if it meant my game was a solid, balanced, and fun experience.
What's the point of getting into a game immediately if that game is a 1 sided slaughter every single time?
23:30 BECAUSE TANKS WERE BORING TO PLAY DURING OW1 AND THEY EVEN PROMOTED US TO PLAY POKE COMPS WITH SIGMA AND ORISA. NOW THERES MORE TANKS AND IT SEEMS LIKE THE DEVS ARE ACTUALLY MAKING MORE TANKS THAT ARE SHOOTERS RATHER THAN LIKE REIN STYLE TANKS. THERE WAS ALSO BARELY ANY TANK HEROES. JUST ADD MORE TANKS BRO AND FUN PLAYSTYLES. LOOK, IF YOU ARE GONNA HAVE A ROLE THAT HAS SO MANY HEROES IN IT, PEOPLE WILL CHOOSE THAT ROLE OVER OTHERS(DPS). COMPARED TO THE SMALL HERO POOL OF TANKS AND SUPPORTS. THIS ISNT ROCKET SCIENCE AARON.
Yea not enough people talking about how the tank and support roles were destroyed by hero design.
Or how the devs destroyed it by trying to make it more appealing, support and tank were defined by having skill in their respective roles from rein shielding or pushing/attacking to how ana had to actually quick scope to heal, mercy and her movement allowing her to heal and lucio having to keep pace with a team to support them and than the devs slowly added heros that counter other heros or make certain jobs for these roles brain dead easy while giving that support or tank the capability to do their main jobs for free while being dps like bap just supports as an afterthought almost while being able to dish out crazy dps and bascially be a dps, and than as a support if you wanna just support the team as lucio, ana or mercy, well to bad they dont do everything like bap or kiri so play bap or kiri and at that point I rather play soldier 76 or genji, I dont go to the support role for watered down dps 😂
Or tanks being able to toss out a rein shield as an afterthought while they went off and played big dps, meanwhile reins choosing between swinging an inferior hammer or shielding 😂
Everyone wants to play rein but they're forced to play dps with a deployable rein shield and that's what really killed the roles I think, instead of adding new fun tanks and supports they just released ones that made the roles even worse.
@@TigerBlood-m4b EXACTLY LIKE.. JUST FIX THE GAME AARON 😭😭
@@d3cayingc0rpse yep like there was defined design philosophies where if you wanted to deal dmg or flank you had lucio for flanking and zen for dealing dps and ana also could slot in but wasnt nearly as good which is why she could heal and give ultity, but than bap comes out with better dmg capabilities than zen, which just shouldn't have happen, if you wanna give supports a dps option it has to be limited like how juno cant really defend herself that well outside of movement, and requires actual skill to heal.
They HAVE to target these issue if they ever want the game to feel good again otherwise the formats not gonna solve anything in my opinion.
They destroyed pretty much every "high" moment and any gameplay synergy there was, especially for tanks, when they went to 5v5. Not just "some" like Aaron claims.
You say that, but there were plenty of games in OW1 with tank pairings that had absolutely nothing to do with each other. If every single game had moments of insane tank synergy, this would be a palpable impact, but if you’ve got tank pairings that don’t pair perfectly, then those games have no chance of a “high moment” anyway. It comes down to how many games actually had optimal tank pairings. With one less tank, DPS and support players now have more of that bandwidth to pop off too, and things are not so predicated on tank synergy. It’s not that black and white.
So many valid points I used to pick in arguments too. But 6v6 pink glasses wearers will still blindly scream that 6v6 is superior in every way. Good luck with the 12-30 min queue times on DPS! I prefer solo tanking over a possibility in 1 out of 10 matches that my other tank actually synergies and we make progress, unlike all the other times of just waiting for a miracle to happen so we can push to the point. This will be just as successful as open queue people wanted so badly and now beside some masochist DPS die hards nobody plays it.
these devs have to keep social engineering about everything it seems based on this post, as it reads like someone desperately trying to justify terrible design that 5v5 is and "blame every balance difficulty they had on 6v6 as a format" (and not themselves)
first of all 5v5 isn't what overwatch "culminated" into, they just to the 5v5 format with ow2 (and they did THAT because ow2 had no reason to exist without the PvE they never finished, so it was done so that it looks like ow2 was some "big change" worthy of being called a sequel and not "cash shop implementation for overwatch 1" that it truly is) and then changed everything about overwatch so 5v5 can work: redoing tanks (ex. orisa), adding new passives (like "everyone passively heals"), changing existing mechanics (like armor), etc etc, basically rewriting the laws of nature of overwatch so that 5v5 is even playable or has any depth compared to 6v6 (hint: it still doesn't), and all of this originally happened because they didn't want to bother balancing the game for 6v6 and dealing with double barrier and goats and other problems (first time they forced 222 was obvious sign they gave up trying to balance the game and were willing to just force everyone to play the way they wanted them to)
I also expect they will not be doing these 6v6 "tests" TO tell "whether 5v5 or 6v6 is better" by doing them fairly, but will 6v6 by implementing it in worst ways possible to "show how 5v5 is better than 6v6 in comparison" until they manage to kill the entire "6v6 crowd" and "prove they were right about 5v5", the best part: no one will know they are doing this and will be genuinely tricked by them
here is how it will go:
first guess: 6v6 with heroes currently rebalanced for 5v5 (proving "how 6v6 is worse")
next: 6v6 with heroes that they spent 5 minutes randomly rebalancing without testing (proving "how 6v6 is worse")
next: 6v6 rebalanced so that it is intentionally worse than 5v5 (proving "how 6v6 is worse")
next: 6v6 rebalanced so that it plays more like 5v5 (proving "how 6v6 is just 5v5, therefore pointless")
all this weaseling will be justified by "6v6 is just an experiment so we are focusing on maintaining 5v5 and trying 6v6 on the side", how about a challenge: add 6v6 exactly as it was in overwatch 1 and watch your entire playerbase switch over and never come back to 5v5?
but at least they are acknowledging 6v6 after trying to pretend it doesn't exist for years and handwaving every mention of it, even if it is an obvious cop out and manipulation instead of a genuine reversion to what everyone knows was a superior game (overwatch 1), it's gotta look like they "know what they are doing" and it's sad that community has to consider 6v6 getting mentioned at all as some massive success
Im so happy they’re willing to do some semi open Q/6v6 thing. I think it’ll be something like you can swap to one other role a limited number of times or something
We don’t need 6v6 we need role que gone an just make the game 6v6 with hero limits to two tanks
I love the gameplay of tanks, but I HATE being the only one on the team. I would play tank ALL THE TIME if there was a second tank. My main im OW2 is Brig specifically because I love playing the off-tank role on a team
5v5 matches are shorter now, which means that average queue time per hour may show a much lower decrease between 6v6 and 5v5. Also, since there are 2 supports per team and 1 tank per team, Stylosa is incorrect at 20:39 where he says that support and tank are not wildly different in respect to number of players, however if his theory is correct, there are half as many people queueing tank as support: not a similar quantity
My question is is why do they have to do test when this game was first built for 6v6
Overwatch 2 is a different game to Overwatch 1 under the hood- it’s why the on fire system didn’t come back until a short while into OW2’s lifespan. In Jeff Kaplan’s own words (at least I think it was Jeff), OW1 was like a ball of sellotape. You can’t simply undo it, a lot of stuff had to be done from the ground up again.
As a tank main, if 6v6 dosnt return, i will quit overwatch for marvel rivals
I too will quit if it does not return as a tank main
Same. This is the make or break moment for the future of OW
Dude Marvel Rivals is already more fun than Overwatch. Why not just give up now
With less shields going on, i think 6V6 will do well. long as they don't bring back deployable shields, i think it'll be fine.
Honestly this is what I wanted all along, give the option of 6v6 for those who want it but focus on 5v5 however bad or good it may become from here on. Best of both worlds for people, so them saying they’re considering some form of 6v6 modes and experimenting as such gives me a little hope
I read this before watching this video but thought it was INSANE that not once did they mention that their balancing was the root problem. dont forget about brig, goats, bap
I kinda think there should be an automated 'guild' system for forming teams that could remain open and schedule games while players do other stuff in the game or even away from their keyboards. This system would automate a lot of the process of finding a community of people to play organized games with and allow those players to remain together and scrim with other teams over several matches, and if one of the folks has to drop out, another could swap in. And any player could belong into multiple guild teams and swap in and out of team seamlessly, but because you would play with them for hours rather than just jump out after one game and never see them again, people would also feel more motivated to cooperate and learn and that would elevate OW from a 'random' jump-in, jump out' type of entertainment to a game with its own organized communities at every level and not just the highest ones.
The game engine is already able to support 5v5 or 6v6 anyway, they should just give options for the players... There could be simply matchmaking buttons like "5v5 only" or "6v6 only" or "I don't care, suprise me"
Optimized technical performance? there is a workshop mode right now that works in 6v6 and is running flawlessly.
They need to account for the worst case scenarios though. 6v6, with all the most dramatic and flashy ults on the switch or weakest hardware the game can’t crash ANYWHERE. A workshop mode doesn’t need that kind of guarantee, most ppl are playing on decent pcs and it’s probably only 1 in 100 game edge cases that are causing issues which is fine in a small workshop mode but not in the base game
@@maknotcory true there is the switch too. Well the workshop is there they can test it with 12 switches 😜
34:20 I've been suggesting Role Selection since Role Queue was announced, I'm surprised they didn't try it before fully commiting to Role Queue.
My solution? Skip 6v6 entirely and go straight to 7v7. 2 tanks - 3 dps - 3 healers
Solves the dps queue times issue, more dps players get to play dps , and gives the structure of 2 tanks that the other players want as well.
They also used to have DPS split into "Offence" and "Defence" sections when the game launched. I remember people used to flame people who picked Widow on Offence for Kings Row just because she was categorized as a "Defence" DPS hero
Based on the issues Aaron addressed I'm wondering if 6v6 with 1 locked tank, 2 locked healers, and 3 flex might work. Of course something would have to be done about stacking tanks, maybe only allowing 1 of the flex to play the role at a time. This way you reduce queue times by allowing more DPS but give the team flexibility to allow a second tank.
Doesn't this 6v6 arc remember you guys of something? The higher ups shut down Overwatch and then someone made a video saying that we have to do something to get the game we loved back and now here we are going back to where we started, this is quite literally the Overwatch lore.
It won't happen overnight, but give us more tanks to choose from. There are currently 18 dps and 12 tank and 10 healers to choose from. Mauga is the perfect example of a brawl dps. What about making Brig into a proper brawl healer and moving her to tank? Entice people to play tank and they will have a reason to not automatically click dps or healer.
Imagine all the tank combinations, Sure there will be lots of mitigation but Overwatch was always a chaotic game back in 2017.
There will only be a lot of mitigation if they don’t balance properly and nerf the immortality abilities, sustain, and hp pools in the game
I always thought why dont they just bring back the experimental card and keep 6v6 in there to see how things work?
Also the game needs a Kings Row 24/7 mode in arcde.
I remember those 6 dps diamond games from Ow1... that was sick :D
Marvel rivals 6v6 got them shook
Here is the answer for handling with the queue-time issue: 2-3-2
Q-times graph only shows the numbers and not the reasons why we got to that situation. Those reasons are:
Bobby kotick
OWL
Full development of OW2 with barely any content or patches for OW1
Its crazy becuase the game did have alot of issues in 6v6 and thats probabaly why i was indifferent to giving 5v5 a try but it taking so long to even have this discussion is crazy. I do think we need to go back but im also of the opinion that it isnt 6v6 but a shift in hoe they approach hero design the last 5 years thats been the issue. Overwatch 1 wasjt really designed with a competitive landscape in mind. 2 was while also trying to maintain the identity of many characters. Something's gotta give and they need to pick a side because once we go back to 6v6 we're going to have a lot of issues.
The reason for 5v5 wasnt for balance to the core game or to get rid of double shield, it was to lower que times for dps cause the ow team kept developing new herps for that role leaving tank with hardly any new toys to play with for the entirety of ow 1 life cycle.
Replace open queue with 6v6.
I'm glad they are looking at other ways to address queue times. For me personally, I now tend to stick with open queue as I mainly play support but like flexing to an off tank role when needed which happened on occasion in OW1. Role queue pushed me away from tank a bit but I'd still queue it on occasion during OW1. When it went 1 tank in OW2 it became a nope, I don't want to be the focus and have that pressure. I will only play tank in open queue.
OW, 6v6, Double shield, and people argued at the time that 5v5, losing that 2 player would reduce visual clutter.
Fast forward, Tank engine 2 comes out, put together by the bottom barrel compared to the Veterans that made the original engine that had way better fidelity + Tank engine 2 was made for PVE purposes so it has a bunch of fancy effects that looks eye scorching in PVP (Case in point; Sojurns E) to put it bluntly, our arguments were thrown out the window with the thrown out PVE incentivized Engine changes that made the visual experience worst, that we in the first place argued as a reason why 5v5 would be better.
If 6v6 was already bad in terms of visual clutter with the OG master class engine, then it will be terrifyingly bad with the scuffed "Updated" one.
I do not want 6v6 with our current fidelity conditions.
I do not want 6v6 until they fix the hit boxes that was changed around March/April. Friends quit OW because of that saying, they can just play R6 or CS where hitboxes actually matter.
I do not want 6v6 until they fix the already broken matchmaking system. Focus on the game guys that is at hand and is intentionally made worst and worst over time at a technical level.
Normal players don't care about the format, they care about gameplay, how is their gameplay affected, gameplay experience is king.
Incredibly rare OW dev team W. Looking forward to the results of their tests
I think the main reason most players avoid the tank role is because they tend to not feel as rewarding to players as something like dps.
As someone who preferred tank and supports. My issue with the 5v5 format is that it puts so much pressure on the tank to perform well over other roles.
What I’m worried about with 6v6 is the queue times. I remember waiting 20-30 minutes for a game on DPS
last night I had to wait 20 minutes for a game on support in diamond 1. What's the difference? lol
@@bobothebob4716 Lol I was getting 20 min qp queue times before I uninstalled. Never waited longer than 3 maybe 5 mins in ow1
aaron forgot to mention conveniently that game was paywwalled and fucking abandoned, thats why queue times were long, if 5vs5 have better queue times is only thanks to being free to play
im willing to wait 20.. 30 mins to play 6v6 again.. 5v5 is a gross massacre of the game I fell in love with and paid for
Ppl forget that OW1 had a very strict matchmaker that kept MMR similar. OW2 had the same MM at season 1 which was when games felt more balanced. Queue times headed back to OW1s toward the end of the season and they loosened the f out of it. This is why queue times feel quick but games are so stomp heavy.
@Stylosa I think a good fix for 5v5 would be to get rid of a dps and make an "off tank role" rework a few dps into off tanks, like Reaper, Cass and Mei are basically almost there. Raise their health a little bit, increase their hitboxes and boom. Now there is another role to take some aggro away from the tank. The off tank role would basically be a hybrid between a tank and dps. So it would go 1 tank, 1 off tank, 1 dps, 2 supports. I think that could work...maybe *Shrug* lol
Marvel rivals ranked is 2-2-2 but you can also communicate with a teammate to switch roles mid match
really? I played multiple matches of competitive and didn't notice that
This is pretty much what I think it needs. Vote to swap roles
OW needs this badly. As a OW1 flex player being stuck on a single role is frustrating. Let me vote to switch from brig to rein if we need it
They finally bring something back that people have wanted and shouldn't have ever been taken out as soon as Marvel Rivals is approaching? who would've thought... not me. too late
Oh look! Yet another reversion to an overwatch 1 mechanic! What an amazing sequel! Thank god they decided to make a sequel with several downgrades and broken promises instead of supporting the last game!
A 100% reversion would be an upgrade in this case.
The devs are trying their best and being open with feedbacks. Maybe the community needs to be a bit more respectful, starting with you. I am not mad at the devs. it's just a hard game design problem.
@@mk3x625 "Leave my million dollars company alone!"
@@zhongliimpact6220 pretty much, Im so sick of people defending ow when they literally gaslit us with the promise of pve to sell their game 💀
If they move back to 6v6, I really hope they make two tank roles. One brawler and one tank.
That would just increase q times even more and isn't really necessary unless we want to enforce 1 frontliner and 1 peeler at every match.
They would need to. Anyone who is clammoring for 6v6 to come back hasn't had to deal with double shields. Hell, they haven't had to deal with 5v6 where most often than naught the 5 team loses instantly unless your a high ELO, where you MIGHT be able to deal with it.
I think people are also forgetting about the queue times which improved exponentially with 5v5.
No
@@ivenstorm lmfao dude there is no way ur saying "double shield" as a reason in the year 2024
Orisa got reworked.. she and sigma were the only tanks that were bad when combined, it wasn't just shields, it was the fact that they had shields, AND Fortify/Grasp, AND Brig AND bap healing tf out of them, with Bap Lamp too
@@bambampewpew32 they also forget double shield was so hard to execute and required all members of the team to be in perfect sync you'd only see that in top 500 games, at most ranks you could do whatever. Unlike nowadays that Orisa or mauga meta becomes meta at every rank and the most optimal play in bronze is the same in gm
They should just release Overwatch 3. Its gonna be the exact game as 1 and they can say theyre being innovative and bold. We can all collectively forget 2 ever existed. Promise. Everyone wins.
Most of the time, those who support 6v6 neglect to mention how grindy it was; poking through chokes until ults break out and THEN attackers can push with half (or more) of the enemy team dead. Many games were so slow and it felt like only the tanks had impact, but it was mostly just being the protector, and taking vs holding space. Rotating through defensive cool downs from tank and support roles.
Meanwhile 5v5 offers too much pick potential and chaos. People flying around with mobility, deaths in your Frontline, backline, flanks, everywhere. Manage your cool downs, check your positioning, and it can be overwhelmingly fast!
Lastly and separately, I worry not knowing what I prefer. I think it boils down to what is more fun? Will the fresher thing always be more fun? Should it be what makes the least popular role the most fun? Who knows
Brother it is not fast shooting into a 100% life steal Mauga blocking choke, with an illyari pylon out of sight. You swapped the sheilds for the health bars
@@j.jonahjoestar7924 I'm talking about the original Overwatch, King's Row or Volskaya Industries or whatever you choose, but you're on attack, where everyone throws everything through that first little choke only for nothing to die. Compare that to Overwatch 2 where yeah, you're shooting mauga and it's slow and he won't die, but as soon as Ana lands a grenade on you or a good Sombra/tracer/echo gets behind and snatches up your supports, the points is captured so quickly after! With two tanks, the other or both can step up and stop a push before any pick matters.
6v6 felt like, in it's low moments specifically (which doesn't happen as much or in the same way during 5v5) that you can't play, push to the objective, get a meaningful kill, or anything
I personally loved the slow games of overwatch 1 and trying to push through strong defenses, but I still enjoy the brawl style of ow2 as well; it would be nice to have both and I know that overwatch has more than enough man power and money to do so, but I doubt they will
I 6v6. I think the dynamic of having two tanks playing off each other was really good fun.
I feel like 5v5 isn’t healthy for the game. Like no matter what the OW team says 5v5 will always be limiting because the game is either in the chokehold of infinite sustain tanks or it’s breaking the back of tanks. You either have giga tanks or tanks that fall over. And the worst part is that the supports enable these tanks to just do whatever. 6v6 I feel wasn’t under the iron boot of tanks. Double shield was a balancing issue and (imo) more of an issue from support being too strong. I feel like 6v6 didn’t encourage the Uber Kiju vs Kiju Mauga brainrot and encouraged more team play.
the bubble/hog combo returns less go
I miss zarya rien or zarya winston comps. Tank was fun when you didn't receive all of the enemy team's damage and cooldowns
I love playing Tank but it is horrible sometimes the "Focus the tank" think is just crazy. I wind up just playing corners I never feel like a tank. Having another player able to pull aggro even for a split second is what I believe will help. Tank is my favorite and least played role.
Individual skill expression was better at 6v6 format. All the things that were wrong with 6v6 are now gone, double shield gone, hard cc stuns gone! The reason why nobody wanted to play tank was because of double shield which also made dps q times long. Q times are still having that issue today. So, yes 6v6 needs to come back period or this game will forever feel like a chore.