@@user-gw6mc1lz6n I get it though....aziz is another name for allah....lol. Alyami is ok i guess....hes "might" be ok...i think hes from Saudi Arabia...but he means alot to the smash community. Im still against islamization....fro hundreds of reasons...but fine.
Glad you pointed out the difference between degeneracy and over-centralization. Something being broken does not equate to a lack of skill. Spacie's shine is an obvious example.
@@TheGamer801 another good point. Invincible ledgedash up smash and the like is pretty dumb, but at least it's an interactive technique that's difficult to perform consistently. It's used to take back stage control, which is a part of the neutral game.
@@Pan_Z and it only allows you to get back on stage. If the player is good, he will not challenge the invincible ledge dash and take advantage of center stage control.
It's probably at least partly because M2K has been soft-retired from Melee while he writes his book/streams. I saw plenty of people criticizing him for timing out Westballz, and I'm sure if M2K was back and camping we'd get plenty of that mentioned in the current LGL discussion
@@JustHANO Exactly, hate the ruleset, not the people who abuse it. If anything I wish Hbox planked more often so people realized how strong it really is
Very well articulated. Drawing in the parallel between other ban worthy techniques and ledgestalling/planking was definitely eye opening. I was on the fence before but im a full proponent of the ban especially if it only matters if the set goes to time.
jelloSG I never really liked the limit because it always felt like it was targeting puff, and when I heard about it the context was to limit puff only. This video addresses it the right way tho, it’s not puff that’s a problem but the strategy in general.
@@MrYoYoBoBoChaddyInsaneZhangII yeah, the community in general doesn't use planking because they care for that juicy neutral into fancy punishes. However, if more people start utilizing planking effectively either the game will die or the community will finally see the truth
@@MrYoYoBoBoChaddyInsaneZhangII if a character is fucked up, it deserves to be targeted. freeze glitch, side b under stage, bomber stall, these are all character specific techniques that needed removed. you shouldnt need to point out that jigglypuff isnt the only problem to realize she is the poster child of realistic planking that puts her at a huge advantage compared to the approaching opponent.
bruce You’re right but Jiggs shouldn’t be the poster child of planking. Imo, by all accounts, Shiek has the better planking. Up - B ez as hell to time compared to consecutive fade-away jumps, Fair stoopid off ledge, Nair stoopid off ledge, and has the better ledgedash.
I feel like the easiest and quickest way to have this issue dealt with is to have a high rated pro who supports the ledge grab limit run through a whole tournament planking on purpose. Really prove to everyone it needs to change. Assuming that planking is as good a strategy as we think it is, the only issue i see with that is that the pro might receive some ire about it, but that just means they would need to make it super clear on twitter and other social media that they are planking on purpose and for a reason. Sure people can complain about it but that's the point.
That is a valid approach, considering it has been done before. Players relying on a strategy for a underutilised but overcentralizing strategy simply to prove a point. It's how they got the Timer modded into Smash 64.
Ian M hbox already does this whenever he starts losing against any captain falcon player, your idea is pretty bad seeing we already have the evidence needed but the community refuses to act
@@Kimjoelun apples and oranges, bruh. The variable in question is the person performing the glitch. "how dare you try and take away MY right to not play the game." which is to say that the person performing a glitch isn't playing. When they are playing the game. They are just preventing the other person from also playing.
The fundamental point of only applying the ledge grab limit if the match goes to time is sufficiently compelling that I can't think of a way for this rule to invalidate non-degenerate forms of ledge stalling. However, there are some other potential issues. For instance, imagine aMSa throws a lot of eggs in a particular game from the ledge; he isn't counting because he thinks it won't go to time, but the other player is counting. The moment aMSa goes over the limit, the other player starts camping. This isn't a reason not to implement the rule, but it is a necessary consideration before going right ahead.
@Adam Evening he literally wants it for every character. And hbox has shown he doesnt need ledge grabbing. He just wants a tactic that is nearly unbeatable for some characters. I cant believe how dumb you have to be to actually believe he wants to just nerf puff, the reason he first talked about lgl way back in 2011 was m2k. Not hbox
perfect video essay - literally the gold standard. i wish more content like this came out of the melee communities, and also other games too. really outstanding and important work you've done here
You know at first I wasn't in favor for a ledge grab limit because it didn't seem like too much of a problem but I am now for it and understand how it's more problematic.
@@yaboi6851 why the hell would you watch something that you dont even know anything about? It really goes to show how the millions of braindead youtube kids are so easily entertained. Gold fish attention spans, all of them. It such a waste if time to watch stuff you are uninformed about
i really appreciate the simple organization here, and how you discussed what it is, what your case is, why ledge grabs should be made. made the video very simple to follow.
even as someone who doesn’t play melee, this is educational as hell and promotes a way of thinking that can be applied to other fighting games. great video!
This is guy has a good point, what has always thrown me off in smash is how can this game be competitive if you have to implement outside rules in order to balance the game. i would hear how balance this older game is but then you see cracks like these and wonder was this ever really meant for competitive play. Like the people who defend wobbling are beyond me
well, it could just be left unbalanced, like marvel... But the difference is that marvel was degenrate, fast and entertaining. Apart from wobbling, these strategies dont lead to a wincon other than time or a concession from the opponent
I really appreciate this. You talk about ideas that I have felt, but could not articulate nearly as well. I think it was particularly important that you analyzed both the planking mechanics advantage of jiggs and that theoretically use of planking should be over centralized in certain matchups.
Not sure where I stand on the issue just yet. But I did just realize it may be possible that part of the reason players don’t plank very often in general is because doing so increases the likelihood of these discussions happening and it getting banned. Basically, if you don’t plank often and it’s not banned, you can save having it as an option for when you really need it to win.
Considering the fact that the two big pro moments mentioned in this video were while they "had their backs against the wall" I'd say that you have a very plausible point.
@@nmfff I think its also worth noting that it may not be intentionally dirty by "hiding" it but instead they would rather NOT have to resort to planking as planking is a very unfun strategy, and so when they CAN win without it they attempt to. And only use planking when they need to in order to win not so that it wont get banned, but because its one of the least fun ways to play and so thus is only used as a last resort when all else fails. So its not necessarily a nefarious reason why its not used to avoid getting it banned, but rather a more simple reason of that its just not fun so they avoid it unless necessary. Just a thought.
M2K saying that he will quit Melee entirely if tournaments ban ledge-camping is one of the most hilariously pathetic, childish things I’ve seen in the competitive Smash scene overall. How can he call himself a true pro if he HAS to rely on cheap tactics like that?
Fantastic video overall. The definitions put out in the video describing melee's metagame structure are extremely informative while being basic to understand. I would suggest that a ledge grab limit applies even if the game does not go to time because a player can gain so much advantage from planking no matter the timer situation as well as that it will still halt the neutral game. For example, if a jigglypuff is planking against a captain falcon, the only decision that the captain falcon can choose to effectively win the game is to completely avoid the traps the puff will set up whilst planking, which will most likely cause the falcon to sit in the middle or end of the stage doing nothing until the timer runs out; therefore halting the amount of neutral that will be available for the falcon to play without playing the "minigame" that puff applies that puts him at a huge disadvantage due to the degeneracy of the tactic. This puts puff at a huge advantage because she will be able to dictate if the match will go to time or not as well as dictate the neutral game due to this bad mechanic. The optimal response to planking would be to not interact with it if this ruleset is applied which eradicates the original purpose of a ledge grab limit which is to stop degeneracy and allow melee's natural concepts of neutral and punish game to shine. A jigglypuff using the ledge for however long she likes just in case a falcon slips up and puts themselves in a disadvantage and then playing "normally" will still be possible. In the games that you used as examples, only one of them went to time.
Leffen's comment to Hax from 2011 lmao. For all that he's improved, he 100% still makes arguments like this. I've seen people recently show his early Ult opinions were way off, which would be fine, if he didn't push them forward so aggressively & then mock anyone who dared question him. I get that he's playing up to a crowd, but that shit's so lame.
Said this in another reply: It's not even that he has an opinion, it's that he'll straight up tell you you're a fucking idiot for believing anything else even when half his opinions don't age well. Doesn't learn a damn thing lmao
@@and...and.. Well here's the thing man - I don't think he wants to 'learn'. He likes to see himself as a strong critic, as the guy who gives opinions on everything. So he puts those opinions in a harsh manner because he's doing it for a crowd. He can take criticism pretty well I think, but if you counter something he said, he'll often go to make a fool out of you. I've seen it on his streams, in his tweets etc. tl;dr he likes to respond in bad faith if you question him.
Interesting and well thought out video. I'm somewhat interested in the way the LGL is implemented though, i.e., only in the case of timeout. We may see more timeouts as Hbox times out Amsa for egg stalling or something like that. Where he has no intention of winning the game or even having the % lead at the end, he just needs a timeout at any cost to win. Overall though I agree with you and think the LGL is healthy for the game just to discourage the technique.
This is a very good point that needs to be addressed. While I agree that some kind of rule should be put in place, this kind of a rule might only serve to increase degenerate play.
@@supercereal522 He is being a degen, but I'm saying this will lead to more timeouts. I would prefer a higher LGL where even if the game doesn't go to time if a player grabbed ledge more than x number of times they lose. That way we can keep fighting instead of trying to force a timeout. Like imagine this scenario, hbox realizes that amsa has grabbed the ledge 60 times on his first stock, they both have 4 left, and there is 6 min left in the game. Hbox now has to completely avoid Amsa for 6 min in order to win and get the timeout. Since the % doesn't matter and he literally just needs the game to go to time at all cost, the optimal strategies will all involve wasting time and running away, which just increases degeneracy. Not saying I disagree with Hax, just a point I think should be addressed.
Bobbino so a strategy that involves attempting to discourage people breaking the LGL is a bad thing? Why is it all the sudden bad when hbox is trying to punish someone else for planking when it’s banned? See this is why nobody takes the melee community serious you guys are a bunch of idiots. “It’s okay for amsa to plank but not hbox because yay amsa”
Great job. Was a bit worried this would be one of those extraordinarily excessive rants when it was in my recommended, but it made perfect use of the time. Hopefully people listen.
Only thing i disagree with is LGL being ignored in case of both players exceeding it. Having the traditional rule where the one with the most grabs loses, forces them to approach, which is what we want after all.
Blackout987 i disagree because that means that if someone goes over the ledgegrab limit then their opponent can just ledgestall for slightly less time at the end of the match, even if theyre losing
Then, in the hypothetical situation of a match where both players recur to planking, why not make both forfeit? That would make sure NO ONE IN A TOURNAMENT recurs to planking, not just one participant out of the two, or, for that matter, both. That would certainly encourage interaction and disencourage degenerate and over-centralising techniques.
e x p a n s i o n p a k No it wouldnt lmao have you ever heard of a BYE? In thos case some players would get a BYE round because both of their would-be opponenents decided to exceed the LGL
e x p a n s i o n p a k Nobody is going to be keeping a total count on how many times their opponent is LG’ing for a given match. But in the rare case that this does happen then the LG’ing player should be given an L in that set outright and it really doesnt matter what the non LG’ing player was doing
I don't play any smash competitively and this man still got me to watch a 25 minute video on changing the rules by having such a reasonable argument and well presented case.
just as an add up. If we go and legalize LGL by time, I think time should also be reduced that way the player who is re-grabbing the ledge has less time to do so and is incentivized to get away from the ledge.
Melee players: we like this game because it's speedy and based on offense also melee players: use a mechanic to play the game slowly and ultra defensively
Degenerate Normie: Ugh, why are so many stages and items banned? Game is no fun! *Gets circle camped on Temple* Ugh, why is this crap allowed? Game is no fun! In all seriousness, this is a very well thought out video. It never really crossed my mind to how bad ledge stalling actually was. I always thought staying on the edge was just another strat I had to deal with, and I even got around it in some points.
I think the crux of his argument is that at top level play there is very little one can do against this technique without playing Marth, Sheik, or Jigglypuff. I think it's a pretty good idea, and easily enforceable.
This is just so goddamn well-made. Completely agree with this, it’s frustrating having to fight planking, and it’s too degenerate to be legal. Great video Hax.
I wonder if there would be a way to count ledge grabs on the actual screen (maybe near percentage) using slippi. That would get rid of the concern of miss counting or forgetting the issue of the ledge grab limit.
He meant in the middle of the game, for the players. So you can know if you or your opponent has passed the limit. This is very valuable mid game knowledge.
Also, now that I’m thinking about it, I think slippi couldn’t be used to do this, but maybe some actual mod similar to ucf? Idk, I’m not nearly smart enough to do something like this but I’m sure someone is
Can you please do this on every subject imaginable? Thoughts on competitive Smash 64 and current meta, Which game handles the ledge mechanics the best? Can the Marios and Ganon break through to higher tiers like Pikachu and Yoshi? If you had to rebalance the Melee roster what would you do? Would having no stage hazards in Melee allow for more stages? Hotdogs vs Hamburgers match up break down, who wins neutral?
Wow! that Cliffhanger rule seems like such a fair version of the rule. well thought out about only using this determination if the round goes to tie. I don't know too much about this but that seems a perfect way to force a decision and really punish stalling. a simple and elegant fix. too bad it was not so well recieved.
The caveat that it's ONLY used if it goes to time makes the whole argument perfect. It means it doesn't affect ANYONE that is not trying to time people out by sitting on the ledge. And it doesn't prevent ledge mechanics: you are still allowed to stall/ledge-camp as much as you want - just make sure that you finish the game, not hide out forever.
I find the “only if it goes to time” idea very interesting... Because, for example, if you’re losing and the opponent is planking and you think they broke the ledge limit, then suddenly your win condition entirely changes. You no longer care about trying to beat the opponent, but instead your goal is simply to live until the timeout happens. In that way, it then incentivizes you to camp your opponent until time out. That being said, I still fully believe that this idea is absolutely better than no idea, and an argument can easily be made that camping is only incentivized when camping already exists (which is true). Idk, it’s just something to think about :)
The idea is that your opponent would also have the ledge grab-limit in mind and not risk it by planking. People can reasonable grab the ledge more than 20 times in a match without planking. If they're the one using the stall tactic then they're the one knowingly violating a rule.
I understand, but if you go into a match expecting that this might happen to you (for example, Wizzy thinking that HBox would likely do this), it’s quite possible to count one’s own and opponent’s total ledge grabs. If you know how many times you grab a ledge and continue to count it, you can approach but still stay below the limit. Also, if the opponent was planking for an extended period of time, that entire time you probably never grabbed the ledge, so your total grabs (before you would start counter planking) would be much below normal amounts.
This is a great video with a wonderfully put together argument, I completely agree that jigglypuff should not be the only character to be affected by a ledgegrab limit. However, because she has the ability to abuse the broken risk reward scenario while grabbing the ledge less times than other characters which can abuse planking (due to her being able to spend multiple jumps with repeated fairs or baits offstage) would it not make sense to give a different ledgegrab limit for puff? This was something that the brawl community implamented when they instituted ledgegrab limits. The ledgegrab limit for metanight was lower than those for other characters because through multiple jumps and repeated up airs he was able to avoid the neutral game without grabbing the ledge as many times as other characters needed to.
I feel offended as a doc main that you didn't include doc extended ledge stall in the graph since it's also an invincible ledge stall... but this is still a good video
Zelda has one too, but if you go back he said "of the 11 characters considered viable", so he probably doesn't want to talk about every character in the game
@@cuno6118 Doc is in mid tier with pika/yoshi/samus so he's considered in the ''viable tier'' he's on the very edge but still, zelda is low tier. He doesn't really go indepth about how the ledge stall is done so why include them but not him since he's talking about a tas execution... then again those 11 characters have more turney results so i guess they have more attention :/
I agree with this video completely. Nothing good comes from planking and no character should be allowed to plank and I want to see interesting counterplay to it.
the only problem with that in a game like melee, is that the oppressor could easily counter that, if they know how many they’ve done, which shouldn’t be too hard, then they can almost guarantee a w in that situation. if they know they have to come back they can abuse the limit, and attack and force them back off
yoshi egg throws from the ledge comes to mind. from memory, seems like amsa would throw eggs from ledge until one connects or until he's taken enough space to freely ledgedash back to stage without being punished. doesn't seem like intention to avoid as it's offensive, like puff fair, but not nearly as rewarding and a missed input truly risks a stock loss.
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 70 | คู่เอก "โฟกัส vs สเตฟาน"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/_fVieQ89DRQ/mqdefault.jpg)
My mans did a 25 minute class presentation with NO group partners
Agnosticuzumaki I can’t express how much I love this comment! LMAO
Bruh thats an easy A- at least
Thank you Stawz for your brave work correcting peoples youtube comments
There were other members in the group, but they didn’t contribute any work. Of course.
Stawz not understanding vernacular is way more stupid than me saying mans
Every time I get wobbled I'm gonna complain about a tier 3 violation.
@@actualfactual8737 shut yo bitch ass up
Who pissed in your oatmeal my guy
@@bigboy2217 Actual Factual
@@actualfactual8737 ur right, degeneracy applies much better for someone like u
@@user-gw6mc1lz6n I get it though....aziz is another name for allah....lol. Alyami is ok i guess....hes "might" be ok...i think hes from Saudi Arabia...but he means alot to the smash community. Im still against islamization....fro hundreds of reasons...but fine.
Glad you pointed out the difference between degeneracy and over-centralization. Something being broken does not equate to a lack of skill. Spacie's shine is an obvious example.
Invincible Ledgedashes as well
@@TheGamer801 another good point. Invincible ledgedash up smash and the like is pretty dumb, but at least it's an interactive technique that's difficult to perform consistently. It's used to take back stage control, which is a part of the neutral game.
@@Pan_Z and it only allows you to get back on stage. If the player is good, he will not challenge the invincible ledge dash and take advantage of center stage control.
Next time someone says the game sucks cuz' it's broken, I'll just use this video and tell them that's not a bad thing.
@@actualfactual8737 Shut yo bitch ass up
Finally someone called out m2k for camping and not just hbox
It's probably at least partly because M2K has been soft-retired from Melee while he writes his book/streams. I saw plenty of people criticizing him for timing out Westballz, and I'm sure if M2K was back and camping we'd get plenty of that mentioned in the current LGL discussion
Well m2k argues for ledge limit because he thinks it's op on puff and really good. He knows its good so he's going to abuse it until it's banned.
@@JustHANO Exactly, hate the ruleset, not the people who abuse it. If anything I wish Hbox planked more often so people realized how strong it really is
@@Forthelemon yea i hate to see it, but i understand why they do it. Money is on the line and we're you're allowing it, its going to be used.
Evidently hax had been called out m2k for it, but dummies criticized him for it instead of hearing him out
this is arguably the greatest “i told you so see what i say” of all time
hax made documentaries instead of writing papers in high school
Very well articulated. Drawing in the parallel between other ban worthy techniques and ledgestalling/planking was definitely eye opening. I was on the fence before but im a full proponent of the ban especially if it only matters if the set goes to time.
jelloSG
I never really liked the limit because it always felt like it was targeting puff, and when I heard about it the context was to limit puff only. This video addresses it the right way tho, it’s not puff that’s a problem but the strategy in general.
@@MrYoYoBoBoChaddyInsaneZhangII yeah, the community in general doesn't use planking because they care for that juicy neutral into fancy punishes. However, if more people start utilizing planking effectively either the game will die or the community will finally see the truth
@@MrYoYoBoBoChaddyInsaneZhangII if a character is fucked up, it deserves to be targeted. freeze glitch, side b under stage, bomber stall, these are all character specific techniques that needed removed. you shouldnt need to point out that jigglypuff isnt the only problem to realize she is the poster child of realistic planking that puts her at a huge advantage compared to the approaching opponent.
bruce You’re right but Jiggs shouldn’t be the poster child of planking.
Imo, by all accounts, Shiek has the better planking. Up - B ez as hell to time compared to consecutive fade-away jumps, Fair stoopid off ledge, Nair stoopid off ledge, and has the better ledgedash.
@@t-mofisher8922 not at all dude lmfao
I feel like the easiest and quickest way to have this issue dealt with is to have a high rated pro who supports the ledge grab limit run through a whole tournament planking on purpose. Really prove to everyone it needs to change. Assuming that planking is as good a strategy as we think it is, the only issue i see with that is that the pro might receive some ire about it, but that just means they would need to make it super clear on twitter and other social media that they are planking on purpose and for a reason. Sure people can complain about it but that's the point.
Jigglypuff mains don't want to nerf themselves
That is a valid approach, considering it has been done before. Players relying on a strategy for a underutilised but overcentralizing strategy simply to prove a point. It's how they got the Timer modded into Smash 64.
Ian M hbox already does this whenever he starts losing against any captain falcon player, your idea is pretty bad seeing we already have the evidence needed but the community refuses to act
instead, a lowly scrub like me should practice my planking and attempt a big upset
Long overdue ruling to be implemented. Really like how he de-constructs banned techniques and re-constructs it for planking.
I did not realize this was haxmoney until 1:42 and I was already thinking this guy had a point
How do you not recognize that deep sultry voice
@@trashman1791 I recognized it after 1:42 XD
it literally says his full name on the channel
@@anasazilespider5574 I had no idea it was his name until after watching like 4 videos. I also never knew he had such a smooth voice
Imagine being some guy out there defending no ledge limit
"How dare you try and take away my right to not play the game"
But it is part of the game.
@@omniferousswan593 so is the freeze glitch lmao
@@Kimjoelun yeah. You'd still be playing the game. I never said either should be allowed.
@@omniferousswan593 lmao if you get freeze glitched you'd be playing the game as much as a younger sibling with an unplugged controller
@@Kimjoelun apples and oranges, bruh. The variable in question is the person performing the glitch. "how dare you try and take away MY right to not play the game." which is to say that the person performing a glitch isn't playing. When they are playing the game. They are just preventing the other person from also playing.
2:16
Oh how times have changed ROFLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
"what are you gonna do, fair them" LOL
lmfao
Leffen was truly convinced that puff was gimpable back then huh
Poyo lul lffn
Leffen was wrong smh
I am in the picture at 9:54 and I have no idea how I have gotten here
We were looking for pictures of casual friendlies and we were getting desperate
Are you fox or falco?
You're sitting next to Elon Musk, nice!
@@saintsigma Alexa, search for pictures with "casual friendlies" + "super smash bros" + "eager" + "confused 5 years later".
When you're salty, but also a scholar
i live for hax money uploads
Lazy Lee is this THE Lazy Lee?
are you dead now?
The fundamental point of only applying the ledge grab limit if the match goes to time is sufficiently compelling that I can't think of a way for this rule to invalidate non-degenerate forms of ledge stalling. However, there are some other potential issues. For instance, imagine aMSa throws a lot of eggs in a particular game from the ledge; he isn't counting because he thinks it won't go to time, but the other player is counting. The moment aMSa goes over the limit, the other player starts camping. This isn't a reason not to implement the rule, but it is a necessary consideration before going right ahead.
Very well thought out and logical
This video is incredibly smart and persuasive.
Ronak Nair I see that EE profile pic. Respec.
Good album
@Adam Evening he literally wants it for every character. And hbox has shown he doesnt need ledge grabbing. He just wants a tactic that is nearly unbeatable for some characters. I cant believe how dumb you have to be to actually believe he wants to just nerf puff, the reason he first talked about lgl way back in 2011 was m2k. Not hbox
@Adam Evening did you even watch the fucking video. Im 90% sure you didnt. You saw the title and just assumed shit.
perfect video essay - literally the gold standard. i wish more content like this came out of the melee communities, and also other games too. really outstanding and important work you've done here
2:17 LMFAO LEFFEN SAYING WE SHOULDINT HAVE LEDGE GRAB LIMIT LMAO
You know at first I wasn't in favor for a ledge grab limit because it didn't seem like too much of a problem but I am now for it and understand how it's more problematic.
So well put together watched the whole thing and dont even play
Hahaha damn
Ugh. Why are there so many youtube kids that don't even play this game?
@@EA_SP0RTCENTER they think its cool, who cares if they dont play
@@yaboi6851 why the hell would you watch something that you dont even know anything about? It really goes to show how the millions of braindead youtube kids are so easily entertained. Gold fish attention spans, all of them. It such a waste if time to watch stuff you are uninformed about
@JUAN CARRACEDO PRIETO here i am checking my notifications hoping someone had worthwhile to say.
sometimes I wonder how this game has managed to survive for so long with this kind of issues.
the melee playerbase is very VERY stubborn haha
can be a good thing, can be a bad thing, in this case obviously the latter
I'm glad you picked Pink Falcon.
Somewhere, deep down, the old Hax is still there...
i really appreciate the simple organization here, and how you discussed what it is, what your case is, why ledge grabs should be made. made the video very simple to follow.
I'm dying laughing that you are calling this tactic degenerate by definition
And you are totally right
Whats really degenerate, is that this ledge grab
imit is making us sound so nooby and bad at this game . Jist do the things people dislike!
He made up the definition though
even as someone who doesn’t play melee, this is educational as hell and promotes a way of thinking that can be applied to other fighting games. great video!
THANK YOU - Made a video on this and was waiting for someone else here on the TH-cam Smash Community to step up to the plate.
I might be blind, but i can't find the video. What's the name of it?
yeah, u are spamin a lot of vids, cant find it
This is a good video. I am impressed by how well you get your point across, Hax.
take a shot every time hax says degenerate
try that on leffen's stream too
im dead
Take a shot for every comment saying they didnt kniw it was hax
@@Thecreeperboombox Try that on mangos stream lol
take a shot for how many times hbox and m2k grabs the ledge
This is guy has a good point, what has always thrown me off in smash is how can this game be competitive if you have to implement outside rules in order to balance the game. i would hear how balance this older game is but then you see cracks like these and wonder was this ever really meant for competitive play. Like the people who defend wobbling are beyond me
well, it could just be left unbalanced, like marvel... But the difference is that marvel was degenrate, fast and entertaining. Apart from wobbling, these strategies dont lead to a wincon other than time or a concession from the opponent
@@Hawko1313 The balance issues in marvel never needed outside intervention to this degree.
Good video, you outlined and defined things surrounding the discussion very clearly. Thank you for the hard work
I really appreciate this. You talk about ideas that I have felt, but could not articulate nearly as well. I think it was particularly important that you analyzed both the planking mechanics advantage of jiggs and that theoretically use of planking should be over centralized in certain matchups.
BC Melee: 15 Taunts in a row leads to a win for the game
Shit make it 7 lol
Not sure where I stand on the issue just yet. But I did just realize it may be possible that part of the reason players don’t plank very often in general is because doing so increases the likelihood of these discussions happening and it getting banned.
Basically, if you don’t plank often and it’s not banned, you can save having it as an option for when you really need it to win.
Considering the fact that the two big pro moments mentioned in this video were while they "had their backs against the wall" I'd say that you have a very plausible point.
@@nmfff I think its also worth noting that it may not be intentionally dirty by "hiding" it but instead they would rather NOT have to resort to planking as planking is a very unfun strategy, and so when they CAN win without it they attempt to. And only use planking when they need to in order to win not so that it wont get banned, but because its one of the least fun ways to play and so thus is only used as a last resort when all else fails.
So its not necessarily a nefarious reason why its not used to avoid getting it banned, but rather a more simple reason of that its just not fun so they avoid it unless necessary. Just a thought.
fantastic analysis and explanation. You are truly a hero for melee, Hax.
Thank you for your time and effort.
I wish you had a twitch channel so I could support you. It would be so amazing to hear you talk about different subjects in melee on the regular
He does have one, though barely used.
Maybe he should get a PATROMON
As you can see, from the smashboards posts, those posts didn't age too well
This was extremely well-written. Thank you very much for your words.
Great video by the way hax$! Can't wait to see your next sets!
I've never even played Melee but regardless, this video was very engaging and entertaining. Great job!
M2K saying that he will quit Melee entirely if tournaments ban ledge-camping is one of the most hilariously pathetic, childish things I’ve seen in the competitive Smash scene overall. How can he call himself a true pro if he HAS to rely on cheap tactics like that?
lol the spongebob tv at 9:58
Fantastic video overall. The definitions put out in the video describing melee's metagame structure are extremely informative while being basic to understand. I would suggest that a ledge grab limit applies even if the game does not go to time because a player can gain so much advantage from planking no matter the timer situation as well as that it will still halt the neutral game. For example, if a jigglypuff is planking against a captain falcon, the only decision that the captain falcon can choose to effectively win the game is to completely avoid the traps the puff will set up whilst planking, which will most likely cause the falcon to sit in the middle or end of the stage doing nothing until the timer runs out; therefore halting the amount of neutral that will be available for the falcon to play without playing the "minigame" that puff applies that puts him at a huge disadvantage due to the degeneracy of the tactic. This puts puff at a huge advantage because she will be able to dictate if the match will go to time or not as well as dictate the neutral game due to this bad mechanic. The optimal response to planking would be to not interact with it if this ruleset is applied which eradicates the original purpose of a ledge grab limit which is to stop degeneracy and allow melee's natural concepts of neutral and punish game to shine. A jigglypuff using the ledge for however long she likes just in case a falcon slips up and puts themselves in a disadvantage and then playing "normally" will still be possible. In the games that you used as examples, only one of them went to time.
This man out here trying to scientifically quantify "degeneracy"
Hax has better essays then I have ever written
Leffen's comment to Hax from 2011 lmao. For all that he's improved, he 100% still makes arguments like this. I've seen people recently show his early Ult opinions were way off, which would be fine, if he didn't push them forward so aggressively & then mock anyone who dared question him. I get that he's playing up to a crowd, but that shit's so lame.
Said this in another reply: It's not even that he has an opinion, it's that he'll straight up tell you you're a fucking idiot for believing anything else even when half his opinions don't age well. Doesn't learn a damn thing lmao
@@and...and.. Leff has the mentality that got Trump elected. Telling everyone they are a fucking idiot got them to vote red.
@@and...and.. Well here's the thing man - I don't think he wants to 'learn'. He likes to see himself as a strong critic, as the guy who gives opinions on everything. So he puts those opinions in a harsh manner because he's doing it for a crowd.
He can take criticism pretty well I think, but if you counter something he said, he'll often go to make a fool out of you. I've seen it on his streams, in his tweets etc.
tl;dr he likes to respond in bad faith if you question him.
@Morph Ball Jokes m8. And who cares what a Sweed thinks about the US president.
@@jamiecal11 - Sounds about right
That was a better presentation than me presenting in front of my class
Damn that was a good video
structure was on point
Well now that its 2020 and LGL is a thing, I think it is safe to say it was absolutely the right move
Based Hax Money telling us some facts
Great video man, just well done.
This is articulated really well. I hope it makes the impact it should.
This is a very well done, persuasive video.
Im on board.
Interesting and well thought out video. I'm somewhat interested in the way the LGL is implemented though, i.e., only in the case of timeout. We may see more timeouts as Hbox times out Amsa for egg stalling or something like that. Where he has no intention of winning the game or even having the % lead at the end, he just needs a timeout at any cost to win. Overall though I agree with you and think the LGL is healthy for the game just to discourage the technique.
This is a very good point that needs to be addressed. While I agree that some kind of rule should be put in place, this kind of a rule might only serve to increase degenerate play.
But if amsa is egg stalling isn’t he the one being “degenerate”? I don’t get the point here
@@supercereal522 He is being a degen, but I'm saying this will lead to more timeouts. I would prefer a higher LGL where even if the game doesn't go to time if a player grabbed ledge more than x number of times they lose. That way we can keep fighting instead of trying to force a timeout.
Like imagine this scenario, hbox realizes that amsa has grabbed the ledge 60 times on his first stock, they both have 4 left, and there is 6 min left in the game. Hbox now has to completely avoid Amsa for 6 min in order to win and get the timeout. Since the % doesn't matter and he literally just needs the game to go to time at all cost, the optimal strategies will all involve wasting time and running away, which just increases degeneracy.
Not saying I disagree with Hax, just a point I think should be addressed.
Bobbino so a strategy that involves attempting to discourage people breaking the LGL is a bad thing? Why is it all the sudden bad when hbox is trying to punish someone else for planking when it’s banned? See this is why nobody takes the melee community serious you guys are a bunch of idiots. “It’s okay for amsa to plank but not hbox because yay amsa”
respect for writing basically a thesis on this topic, well thought out
Great job. Was a bit worried this would be one of those extraordinarily excessive rants when it was in my recommended, but it made perfect use of the time. Hopefully people listen.
Only thing i disagree with is LGL being ignored in case of both players exceeding it. Having the traditional rule where the one with the most grabs loses, forces them to approach, which is what we want after all.
Blackout987 i disagree because that means that if someone goes over the ledgegrab limit then their opponent can just ledgestall for slightly less time at the end of the match, even if theyre losing
Then, in the hypothetical situation of a match where both players recur to planking, why not make both forfeit? That would make sure NO ONE IN A TOURNAMENT recurs to planking, not just one participant out of the two, or, for that matter, both.
That would certainly encourage interaction and disencourage degenerate and over-centralising techniques.
Richard Warwickshire you cant have both players lose that would mess up brackets
e x p a n s i o n p a k No it wouldnt lmao have you ever heard of a BYE? In thos case some players would get a BYE round because both of their would-be opponenents decided to exceed the LGL
e x p a n s i o n p a k Nobody is going to be keeping a total count on how many times their opponent is LG’ing for a given match. But in the rare case that this does happen then the LG’ing player should be given an L in that set outright and it really doesnt matter what the non LG’ing player was doing
Wow amazing video who edited this
Hacks monee
U
This is a really smart and light touch to the rules. A big tournament should trial this additional rule to see how it flies.
I don't play any smash competitively and this man still got me to watch a 25 minute video on changing the rules by having such a reasonable argument and well presented case.
Hax is really a Melee professor holy shit. What a well presented video
just as an add up. If we go and legalize LGL by time, I think time should also be reduced that way the player who is re-grabbing the ledge has less time to do so and is incentivized to get away from the ledge.
And now there is a ledge grab limit, how times have changed.
i want no ledge grab limit i hate the ledge grab limit
This is a really well formated, and convincing argument. I completely agree with your opinion. A ledge grab limit should be implemented.
Damn I thought the 2:16 message was from some random noob and then I read the name
LOL damn same here lmao.
leffen tends to have shitty takes even back then
He was good but not that good in 2011. Hax was waaay better than leffen in 2011
i still remember the day of cheesey blunts
and you explaining why the ledge is stupid, "being invincible good"
Great video Hax!
Fantastic Video. Thank you hax
B0XX gang, seriously though. im finally glad hax is putting content out again.
HAX MONEY BABY
2:15 THIS LEFFEN POST AFTER HIS SALT AT LUDWIGS IS SO FUNNY
Great argument, hope it goes someplace.
Melee players: we like this game because it's speedy and based on offense
also melee players: use a mechanic to play the game slowly and ultra defensively
This video should be in the new smash bros documentary.
Well done Hax...this is a perfectly explained reasoning of why planking is totally bogus
This was just an interestingly well articulated video.
Feels very wholesome, don’t play melee but I dabble in the culture and controversy.
Degenerate Normie: Ugh, why are so many stages and items banned? Game is no fun!
*Gets circle camped on Temple*
Ugh, why is this crap allowed? Game is no fun!
In all seriousness, this is a very well thought out video. It never really crossed my mind to how bad ledge stalling actually was. I always thought staying on the edge was just another strat I had to deal with, and I even got around it in some points.
I think the crux of his argument is that at top level play there is very little one can do against this technique without playing Marth, Sheik, or Jigglypuff. I think it's a pretty good idea, and easily enforceable.
A limit of successive ledge grabs would be best, rather than a total ledge grab limit.
This is just so goddamn well-made. Completely agree with this, it’s frustrating having to fight planking, and it’s too degenerate to be legal. Great video Hax.
Completely agree. GJ Aziz
I wonder if there would be a way to count ledge grabs on the actual screen (maybe near percentage) using slippi. That would get rid of the concern of miss counting or forgetting the issue of the ledge grab limit.
? The game counts it check your end game screen. The gods of melee really gave us everything we needed
He meant in the middle of the game, for the players. So you can know if you or your opponent has passed the limit. This is very valuable mid game knowledge.
arb ^^^
Also, now that I’m thinking about it, I think slippi couldn’t be used to do this, but maybe some actual mod similar to ucf? Idk, I’m not nearly smart enough to do something like this but I’m sure someone is
Why does this sound like a valedictorian speech.
Can you please do this on every subject imaginable?
Thoughts on competitive Smash 64 and current meta,
Which game handles the ledge mechanics the best?
Can the Marios and Ganon break through to higher tiers like Pikachu and Yoshi?
If you had to rebalance the Melee roster what would you do?
Would having no stage hazards in Melee allow for more stages?
Hotdogs vs Hamburgers match up break down, who wins neutral?
Wow! that Cliffhanger rule seems like such a fair version of the rule. well thought out about only using this determination if the round goes to tie. I don't know too much about this but that seems a perfect way to force a decision and really punish stalling. a simple and elegant fix. too bad it was not so well recieved.
The caveat that it's ONLY used if it goes to time makes the whole argument perfect. It means it doesn't affect ANYONE that is not trying to time people out by sitting on the ledge. And it doesn't prevent ledge mechanics: you are still allowed to stall/ledge-camp as much as you want - just make sure that you finish the game, not hide out forever.
i say remove the time limit
꧁K̊n̛̘̙̚e̗̚e꧂ that would cause so many more problems
@@chadhawley7050 how many more
I find the “only if it goes to time” idea very interesting...
Because, for example, if you’re losing and the opponent is planking and you think they broke the ledge limit, then suddenly your win condition entirely changes. You no longer care about trying to beat the opponent, but instead your goal is simply to live until the timeout happens. In that way, it then incentivizes you to camp your opponent until time out.
That being said, I still fully believe that this idea is absolutely better than no idea, and an argument can easily be made that camping is only incentivized when camping already exists (which is true). Idk, it’s just something to think about :)
The idea is that your opponent would also have the ledge grab-limit in mind and not risk it by planking. People can reasonable grab the ledge more than 20 times in a match without planking. If they're the one using the stall tactic then they're the one knowingly violating a rule.
I understand, but if you go into a match expecting that this might happen to you (for example, Wizzy thinking that HBox would likely do this), it’s quite possible to count one’s own and opponent’s total ledge grabs. If you know how many times you grab a ledge and continue to count it, you can approach but still stay below the limit. Also, if the opponent was planking for an extended period of time, that entire time you probably never grabbed the ledge, so your total grabs (before you would start counter planking) would be much below normal amounts.
This is a great video with a wonderfully put together argument, I completely agree that jigglypuff should not be the only character to be affected by a ledgegrab limit. However, because she has the ability to abuse the broken risk reward scenario while grabbing the ledge less times than other characters which can abuse planking (due to her being able to spend multiple jumps with repeated fairs or baits offstage) would it not make sense to give a different ledgegrab limit for puff? This was something that the brawl community implamented when they instituted ledgegrab limits. The ledgegrab limit for metanight was lower than those for other characters because through multiple jumps and repeated up airs he was able to avoid the neutral game without grabbing the ledge as many times as other characters needed to.
well you've certainly convinced me
I feel offended as a doc main that you didn't include doc extended ledge stall in the graph since it's also an invincible ledge stall... but this is still a good video
Zelda has one too, but if you go back he said "of the 11 characters considered viable", so he probably doesn't want to talk about every character in the game
@@cuno6118 Doc is in mid tier with pika/yoshi/samus so he's considered in the ''viable tier'' he's on the very edge but still, zelda is low tier. He doesn't really go indepth about how the ledge stall is done so why include them but not him since he's talking about a tas execution... then again those 11 characters have more turney results so i guess they have more attention :/
Get this man a good mic
Good job, you convinced me.
*gets wobbled in game*
"HEY! THATS A TIER 3 BAN!"
I agree with this video completely. Nothing good comes from planking and no character should be allowed to plank and I want to see interesting counterplay to it.
Back air at the ledge is pretty much all youll see.
Or dash dance on stage and ignore them.
I think that 5 consecutive ledge-grabs should be the limit, like SSB Ultimate.
huh - good catch
the only problem with that in a game like melee, is that the oppressor could easily counter that, if they know how many they’ve done, which shouldn’t be too hard, then they can almost guarantee a w in that situation. if they know they have to come back they can abuse the limit, and attack and force them back off
It took me way too long to realize this was Hax lmao
This is amazing. Write this into melee law
You forgot the ice climbers freeze glitch. That was banned right away.
I thought he would mention that too
Excellent report, Aziz.
didn't know you became a casual though.
/s
yoshi egg throws from the ledge comes to mind. from memory, seems like amsa would throw eggs from ledge until one connects or until he's taken enough space to freely ledgedash back to stage without being punished. doesn't seem like intention to avoid as it's offensive, like puff fair, but not nearly as rewarding and a missed input truly risks a stock loss.
Wish more informative vids had zero background noise or music like this one. Nice job.