TL;DR Melee's original code has built in 20.83 MS of latency due to oversights from the development team. Faster Melee (what we use on Netplay) is a re-coding that has removed that internal latency, and the removal of this 20.83 MS can balance out the additional latency received from LCD monitors to replicate the pace and latency of CRT melee.
I've heard about people who practice on monitors for smash/speedrunning and are thrown off by crt when they need to play on it. It all depends on what you're accustomed to.
Phenomenal video, Hax. I've long been a supporter of CRT's for competitive melee, and strongly against monitors for competitive use. Up until now, the tech just hasn't been ready, and the experience has always suffered. This is what melee has needed to finally make LCD's viable. I completely agree with every point you made in this video, and I will do my part to help educate the masses.
not really. Faster Melee was developed entirely with netplay/dolphin in mind. Of course now, with that technology its not a big step for lans to switch to monitors though
3:15 my mind just blew. I never knew how exactly these monitors works and why everytime I tried to record a CRT it has those scan lines, really interesting
hax you've always been my favorite player but I think you are also one of my favorite content creators now. the scope of your videos and their explanations are seriously impressive. you bring so much to the melee community and I just want to say I appreciate it.
hax this is really top tier content you have done so much for the scene and i really appreciate your work ethic. Please continue doing this kind of stuff
@@salj.5459 Most Americans do if you are talking about America. Study politics and economics can be boring but it is necessary to consider voting. My political views have completely flipped in the last few years because of this
Devyn Tucker What are your views now? And yes, I'm aware that the political state of America is absolute shit due to uneducated voters and corrupt politicians... and also apathy from young voters.
@@salj.5459 A little background: I'm a veteran of 6 years (Guard) so I've always been a constitutionalist even though I was a liberal. After listening to people and researching on my own, the best way I can explain my views is I'm now "Conservitarian" I am not traditional in my views however, but I am liberal when it comes to social stuff like gays getting married or if somebody wants to be transgender. I just don't like it when it's kids being chemically castrated. I believe in freedom of religion even if it's a religion I don't like. Basically the government just needs to stay out of everyone's lives more than they are now.
I wish more informational videos were more like this: Only Narrator, visuals, and no distracting background noise or music in the background. Good stuff Hax. I prefer this style far more.
Jake Zepeda You do really suck (and so do I and most people here) but your muscle memory would be off and you probably will see better results by practicing on a CRT
Why would be netplay more consistent than CRT? If im not mistaken in netplay we suffer from the adapter polling rate not being synced as good as in a console setup, even tho we can now overclock it to 1000hz with Arte’s guide, he explains that at the end of it: twitter.com/SSBM_Arte/status/1313616578571837440
Been thinking running house tournaments again and going full-LCD would be a godsend for me since it's mostly a oneman team - going to try it out next time. Considering how Melee players despise change, thanks a ton for the breakdown and the bold suggestions:)
The change is inevitable, it's just a matter of when the technology and culture around the game are ready for it. The year is 20XX... CRTs are nowhere to be found. Optimal Melee is played strictly on monitors.
this is the step to be taken in the community if we want melee to continue being played alongside other FGC tournaments. Youngn's don't own CRTs so it is harder for them to get into melee. CRTs are also a pain in the ass to transport.
In the beginning where you compare the ways that CRT and LCD draw pictures it can be added that the fact that much of the picture is briefly black on a CRT happily results in moving objects and panning scenes being perceived by our eyes as much clearer, while the "sample-and-hold" method of LCD (as well as OLED) results in motion appearing blurry to our eyes (even if pixel response is near-instant), and this is known as persistence or eye-tracking blur (as opposed to "motion blur" from slow pixel response). Persistence blur on flat panels can be alleviated using techniques like black frame insertion. Luckily in the case of Melee there is not a lot of screen scrolling, but some players used to the motion clarity of CRT may still feel that moving objects appear blurry as a separate issue from input latency.
The PD is definitely something that should be standardized as long as we're already using codes like UCF (which is hopefully forever). From my understanding it would help the consistency of frame perfect inputs like multishines and pivots, and since the game is definitely headed in that direction there's no reason we shouldn't address that issue. I'm not as interested on the LCD issue honestly (because my scene has never had issues with CRTs), but anything to make the game more accessible and more convenient to organize and manage events is good in my book should it not disturb anything vital to the game.
We started hosting S4 tournaments back in its heyday. We were thinking about Melee too along with 64(my personal favorite) but I advised against it because it was just not worth the time and energy to lug around CRTs. The cafe we did it at had one HD wii setup for melee and it was pretty cool.
I’m honestly all for this route tbh. I see the pros and cons, but I am inherently more aligned with this outcome for the future of this game in the long run if we decide in the end to go this direction.
The more a device utilises light projection as a method of data manipulation (be it decoding or transferral), the less latency will be generated by the given device as light moves at the fastest possible speed. The rate at which current moves through copper is likewise capped, although this cap is harder to reach in standard electrical devices for a myriad of reasons. Keeping in mind I'm speaking in gamer talk, it should be noted that the lack of lag in a CRT tv is caused by the "build order" or the decoding in data, which "rushes" the step in which the data is turned into light, but at the cost of having a low ceiling for fidelity (which is why the big switch to lcd happened in general). I could go into more depth but know that a smaller signal path = a smaller amount of delay and it is perceivable that smaller screens could lead to lower delay. Additionally you could cut open an already small screen and see if there's a bunch of excess wires you can shorten and go full mad max about it. This miniaturisation is funnily enough why graphics cards are getting smaller again fun fact lol.
Great video Aziz. You're the VSauce of Melee. Could you expand on the issues caused by codes that remove "too much" latency? What are the negatives to having the lowest latency possible?
From what i understand, the community is abhorrently against changing from the latency they've played on for ~18 years. If they change it, people who have acclimated to the previous latency will have to re-acclimate, which they don't want to do.
I think I'm the Modern Melee world, we need to do our best to standardize play. I see comments on Twitter about how we should just stick to CRT cuz it's cheaper and more accessible, but at the same time there are people everywhere are still using different versions of melee, ucf on, ucf off, EON, monitor, adjusted latency, and whatever else. This video highlights that there are solutions to optimize the base game and I think that something everyone should think about the gameplay above all else, not just about how they don't want to give up CRTs.
I’ve been a proponent of LCD melee for a while, but never wanted it until they had consistent latency fixes. Now that i know this lets get it done. Never gonna lug around a CRT again.
I still prefer the look of gen 6 and prior consoles on CRT TVs, but it's nice that people are finding ways to make it easier to hold these kind of tournaments.
the main thing that concerns me isnt the display lag (which does still concern me) but the different scan methods. i hope lcds can work though, anything for the long term health of the community
Looking at it from a broad point of view, I'm surprised no one has purposed a fix like this already. I'm not involved too much in the melee community, but this just seems like a simple idea of a solution (notice how I said idea. The execution is probably a lot more complicated, especially for making this the accepted norm for tournaments).
I always thought the problem was the TV's own conversion of the signal; even if a flatscreen has analog inputs, it still has to convert those to digital. I understand that I'm wrong; I just didn't realize.
You're on the right track. The problem is what the TV does with the signal before it displays it, which is referred to as input lag. This input lag applies regardless if the source is digital or analog. Hax, as usual, misses the forest for the trees and fixates on millisecond display transition time deltas and technical differences in how the image is painted when input lag can introduce up to around 100ms of delay. TV's usually employ image processing to improve the quality of the displayed image. This processing pipeline adds additional delay and is separate from how long it takes the display to physically paint the frame. This is why fighting game tournaments use small PC monitors, which do not perform any additional image processing. There is a display database (displaylag.com/display-database/) that lists the measured input lag of popular displays, since this is not something the manufacturers publish. The displays used at major tournaments, such as the BenQ mentioned here, have less than 1 frame (16ms) of input lag. Ultimately, the actual delay is irrelevant so long as it's within reason, because what matters in a competitive setting is the reaction time delta between competitors. So long as everyone's using similar displays with
I was randomly at Nebulous in March 2018 because of a school trip to NY all the way from Norway. I never knew I was at one of the last ones ever until now. Fuck.
the year is 2019
The year is 20XX.....also known as 2020
Posted 9 hours ago fuk yea
...everyone uses CRTs with broken-back levels of dedication.
@@Matanumi was this a megaman reference or am i overlooking this
666
Man, I wish hax could make videos like this for every topic. Not just melee stuff. Like, I want to learn the optimal way to do my taxes from this guy.
20XX&R block
double shine wavedash jumpcancel tax fraud
2020 he's gonna come out with the Taxx.
Hax seems to have great potential for this sorta thing, he could find a way do anything optimally
@@cheef825 lol
More importantly, this discovery is HUGE for the Post-Game Johns Metagame
Twitter will make millions
The true Melee
hey buddy
“Dude, of course i lost, the fucking polling drift is making me drop combos!”
-John
Dude. I only lost because HAL forgot to make sure the visual buffer is synched! That's why I missed the tech!
Obviously.
You weren't lying when you said this could change Melee.
I mean he's literally modifying Melee
TL;DR
Melee's original code has built in 20.83 MS of latency due to oversights from the development team.
Faster Melee (what we use on Netplay) is a re-coding that has removed that internal latency, and the removal of this 20.83 MS can balance out the additional latency received from LCD monitors to replicate the pace and latency of CRT melee.
^ agreed, well done sir
Well done but also probably contributes to lower watch time which Hax doesn’t deserve 🥺
I'd die laughing if I saw someone johning on Twitter about too little latency lol
"What the fuck you just touch the button and it goes" lmao
I've heard about people who practice on monitors for smash/speedrunning and are thrown off by crt when they need to play on it.
It all depends on what you're accustomed to.
"he had port priority so the game was already over, the latency was so low the entire match of inputs already registered fuck this"
me lol
Phenomenal video, Hax. I've long been a supporter of CRT's for competitive melee, and strongly against monitors for competitive use. Up until now, the tech just hasn't been ready, and the experience has always suffered. This is what melee has needed to finally make LCD's viable. I completely agree with every point you made in this video, and I will do my part to help educate the masses.
100% agree... also love your vids man. Ive been planning a wii crt (CRWii) fusion but using a lcd would make a portable setup so much more convenient.
Hey your the guy with the awesome Wii portables ;)
LCDs have been viable for a while lol
@@Splozy not for competitive melee. The panels still have latency compared to CRT. Panel latency is a limitation of the current tech.
@@rosetintedtankergoggles897 thanks, appreciate it :)
10:35 of course it's a blue fox shining a pink falcon as the example
Thank you. Your wrists were sacrificed in exchange for knowledge.
hax saving melee one video at a time
i wish hax narrated a movie about my life
I hope he gets an episode in METAGAME.
just dweened all over myself
does this mean faster melee was a plant for Big Monitor?
precisely
@@fallensmemesdump wtf the world's jank plug plays melee? let's get itttttt
not really. Faster Melee was developed entirely with netplay/dolphin in mind. Of course now, with that technology its not a big step for lans to switch to monitors though
"BIG MONITOR" 💀
Tradition at 3:15 was sick
I needa study for my midterm lmao
word
Pft, studying
Fuck school this is a real education
Mood
I feel like I just watched a lecture from a professor or something
Mydickisholy lmao I wish my professors were this good
@@Puffzilla777 bruh deadass
Already studying for Prof. Hax's Melee Midterm
I kinda like how all your videos feel like a lecture for a university melee class. I'd take that class in a second.
3:15 my mind just blew. I never knew how exactly these monitors works and why everytime I tried to record a CRT it has those scan lines, really interesting
hax you've always been my favorite player but I think you are also one of my favorite content creators now. the scope of your videos and their explanations are seriously impressive. you bring so much to the melee community and I just want to say I appreciate it.
Been waitin all day for this
hax this is really top tier content you have done so much for the scene and i really appreciate your work ethic. Please continue doing this kind of stuff
Fantastic work Hax, can't wait to see how far this goes.
Community: *Pulls a pro gamer move by using codes on CRT*
thank god there are smart people in the melee community. also can't wait for my boxx!
I didn't understand anything, but I agree anyway
Lol horrible
I hope you don't apply that same apathy and ignorance to your political views.
@@salj.5459 Most Americans do if you are talking about America. Study politics and economics can be boring but it is necessary to consider voting. My political views have completely flipped in the last few years because of this
Devyn Tucker What are your views now?
And yes, I'm aware that the political state of America is absolute shit due to uneducated voters and corrupt politicians... and also apathy from young voters.
@@salj.5459 A little background: I'm a veteran of 6 years (Guard) so I've always been a constitutionalist even though I was a liberal. After listening to people and researching on my own, the best way I can explain my views is I'm now "Conservitarian" I am not traditional in my views however, but I am liberal when it comes to social stuff like gays getting married or if somebody wants to be transgender. I just don't like it when it's kids being chemically castrated. I believe in freedom of religion even if it's a religion I don't like. Basically the government just needs to stay out of everyone's lives more than they are now.
I love you man. Your essay research approach to gaming is beautiful
Wow, what an incredible, technical, and professional video. Well done!
Hax$ you make the greatest and most informational videos I have ever seen. Keep up the work and more will follow my man.
may the community appreciate yalls effort and relief all the tos of tons of struggle
I wish more informational videos were more like this: Only Narrator, visuals, and no distracting background noise or music in the background.
Good stuff Hax. I prefer this style far more.
glad kadano gave you the info needed for this video. this is like a more digestable version of the video he did a number of years ago
hax's hand getting fucked up was the best thing to happen to melee
Very good video. Can really see the effort put into it
Amazing video hax, looking forward to updates
Incredibly thorough. Good job, Hax
Again great vid, clear and precise
As a netplay warrior I always wondered why I seemed to miss more inputs on crt. Now I know why
I went to my first tourney last saturday and I thought it felt weird because I just sucked so much.
Jake Zepeda
You do really suck (and so do I and most people here) but your muscle memory would be off and you probably will see better results by practicing on a CRT
@@AwesomepianoTURTLES lol, "really suck" is an understatement. I'm bad on emulator but helpless on a CRT.
Why would be netplay more consistent than CRT? If im not mistaken in netplay we suffer from the adapter polling rate not being synced as good as in a console setup, even tho we can now overclock it to 1000hz with Arte’s guide, he explains that at the end of it: twitter.com/SSBM_Arte/status/1313616578571837440
better mic and better emg intro poggers
Super interesting. I had no idea how any of this worked, and I got to learn about it through it's application to the greatest competitive game.
Playing melee on FM dolphin build with a 240hz monitor is optimal. Never had someone over for melee who didn't think it felt smoother than a CRT
Incredible dedication shown from these people, kudos
This is edited really well 👍
Wow, Hax I dunno what to say but I really appreciate you and your input. Amazing video.
Been thinking running house tournaments again and going full-LCD would be a godsend for me since it's mostly a oneman team - going to try it out next time.
Considering how Melee players despise change, thanks a ton for the breakdown and the bold suggestions:)
Even rewatching these videos are just as good as the first time
Hax always out here dropping the hot knowledge
The change is inevitable, it's just a matter of when the technology and culture around the game are ready for it. The year is 20XX... CRTs are nowhere to be found. Optimal Melee is played strictly on monitors.
Lots of love to you, Hax, the Averroes of Melee.
3:15 WTF WAS THIS TRANSITION
Hax content is always a treat
God bless Kadano, what a mad man
You're a hero
This will ensure melee’s future after the apocalypse.
Even thought I dont even play melee, I still find all this quite interesting!
Amazing video
Monitor Melee is a Must!
this is the best video I've ever seen
this is the step to be taken in the community if we want melee to continue being played alongside other FGC tournaments. Youngn's don't own CRTs so it is harder for them to get into melee. CRTs are also a pain in the ass to transport.
Good guy Hax. Always three steps ahead trying to save the communities.
In the beginning where you compare the ways that CRT and LCD draw pictures it can be added that the fact that much of the picture is briefly black on a CRT happily results in moving objects and panning scenes being perceived by our eyes as much clearer, while the "sample-and-hold" method of LCD (as well as OLED) results in motion appearing blurry to our eyes (even if pixel response is near-instant), and this is known as persistence or eye-tracking blur (as opposed to "motion blur" from slow pixel response). Persistence blur on flat panels can be alleviated using techniques like black frame insertion. Luckily in the case of Melee there is not a lot of screen scrolling, but some players used to the motion clarity of CRT may still feel that moving objects appear blurry as a separate issue from input latency.
The PD is definitely something that should be standardized as long as we're already using codes like UCF (which is hopefully forever). From my understanding it would help the consistency of frame perfect inputs like multishines and pivots, and since the game is definitely headed in that direction there's no reason we shouldn't address that issue. I'm not as interested on the LCD issue honestly (because my scene has never had issues with CRTs), but anything to make the game more accessible and more convenient to organize and manage events is good in my book should it not disturb anything vital to the game.
8:28 I just realised this is a picture of a dog. I always thought it was some sort of Nintendo creature.
That’s some HAX man
Thanksssss
tl;dr Faster Melee figured out how to get rid of 20.83 ms of lag on the base game which you can use to make LCDs as lagless as CRTs
Where is the guide?
hax and his melee shenanigans is the perfect example of what a slippery slope looks like
We started hosting S4 tournaments back in its heyday. We were thinking about Melee too along with 64(my personal favorite) but I advised against it because it was just not worth the time and energy to lug around CRTs. The cafe we did it at had one HD wii setup for melee and it was pretty cool.
I’m honestly all for this route tbh. I see the pros and cons, but I am inherently more aligned with this outcome for the future of this game in the long run if we decide in the end to go this direction.
The more a device utilises light projection as a method of data manipulation (be it decoding or transferral), the less latency will be generated by the given device as light moves at the fastest possible speed. The rate at which current moves through copper is likewise capped, although this cap is harder to reach in standard electrical devices for a myriad of reasons. Keeping in mind I'm speaking in gamer talk, it should be noted that the lack of lag in a CRT tv is caused by the "build order" or the decoding in data, which "rushes" the step in which the data is turned into light, but at the cost of having a low ceiling for fidelity (which is why the big switch to lcd happened in general).
I could go into more depth but know that a smaller signal path = a smaller amount of delay and it is perceivable that smaller screens could lead to lower delay. Additionally you could cut open an already small screen and see if there's a bunch of excess wires you can shorten and go full mad max about it. This miniaturisation is funnily enough why graphics cards are getting smaller again fun fact lol.
Hax is actually the best Melee content creator of all time
Great video Aziz. You're the VSauce of Melee. Could you expand on the issues caused by codes that remove "too much" latency? What are the negatives to having the lowest latency possible?
From what i understand, the community is abhorrently against changing from the latency they've played on for ~18 years. If they change it, people who have acclimated to the previous latency will have to re-acclimate, which they don't want to do.
This the future
You’re the best hax
summit threw away a crt, i thought that was pretty cool
Based Hax.
2:36 whoa that's the same monitor I'm watching this video with, trippy.
I think I'm the Modern Melee world, we need to do our best to standardize play. I see comments on Twitter about how we should just stick to CRT cuz it's cheaper and more accessible, but at the same time there are people everywhere are still using different versions of melee, ucf on, ucf off, EON, monitor, adjusted latency, and whatever else. This video highlights that there are solutions to optimize the base game and I think that something everyone should think about the gameplay above all else, not just about how they don't want to give up CRTs.
awesome
let’s go hax
let’s go melee
Salem: years of research
Players hate him!
Find out how this man singlehandedly makes CRTs worthless with 1 easy step!
I’ve been a proponent of LCD melee for a while, but never wanted it until they had consistent latency fixes. Now that i know this lets get it done. Never gonna lug around a CRT again.
Cool
VB half (12.5ms) + PD is now a thing as of 12/22/21 on slippi 1.9.3! Feels great on monitor 👍.
Hax is so 20XX with kicking knowledge that I accidentally skipped 10 seconds and didn't even realize it when Hax was explaining some technical info
I still prefer the look of gen 6 and prior consoles on CRT TVs, but it's nice that people are finding ways to make it easier to hold these kind of tournaments.
the main thing that concerns me isnt the display lag (which does still concern me) but the different scan methods. i hope lcds can work though, anything for the long term health of the community
Thanks a lot for this, Brawl didn't kill melee, no evo didn't kill melee, ultimate didn't kill melee. But not having a place to play the game will.
My dude MONEY fixing this broken ass game almost 2 decades later
I CAN'T WAIT FOR MICROLED!!!
Hax can seriously teach a college course about retro/competitive gaming and its evolution.
Looking at it from a broad point of view, I'm surprised no one has purposed a fix like this already. I'm not involved too much in the melee community, but this just seems like a simple idea of a solution (notice how I said idea. The execution is probably a lot more complicated, especially for making this the accepted norm for tournaments).
It's fucking amazing how players optimizing an 18 year old game has led to videos like this. Melee is truly on another fucking level.
I always thought the problem was the TV's own conversion of the signal; even if a flatscreen has analog inputs, it still has to convert those to digital. I understand that I'm wrong; I just didn't realize.
You're on the right track. The problem is what the TV does with the signal before it displays it, which is referred to as input lag. This input lag applies regardless if the source is digital or analog. Hax, as usual, misses the forest for the trees and fixates on millisecond display transition time deltas and technical differences in how the image is painted when input lag can introduce up to around 100ms of delay.
TV's usually employ image processing to improve the quality of the displayed image. This processing pipeline adds additional delay and is separate from how long it takes the display to physically paint the frame. This is why fighting game tournaments use small PC monitors, which do not perform any additional image processing. There is a display database (displaylag.com/display-database/) that lists the measured input lag of popular displays, since this is not something the manufacturers publish. The displays used at major tournaments, such as the BenQ mentioned here, have less than 1 frame (16ms) of input lag.
Ultimately, the actual delay is irrelevant so long as it's within reason, because what matters in a competitive setting is the reaction time delta between competitors. So long as everyone's using similar displays with
Was it n0ne or Fiction that disliked this video?
coulda been gravy
logicman would never dislike this
EON shill hbox
Hax for president
Changing Melee one miracle at a time.
Hax$ Changing the Melee landscape for the better yet again...
Pog
I was randomly at Nebulous in March 2018 because of a school trip to NY all the way from Norway. I never knew I was at one of the last ones ever until now. Fuck.
Hax$ speaking straight facts here