For my argument against the notion that consumers can take down animal ag I should've just responded with the recent article title from CNN: "Tyson is closing four plants as chicken sales slump"
What if someone was allergic to eating plants? What happens if someone is allergic to fruits and vegetables? What about people that are allergic to nuts? What do the allergic people do to get protein? Do they have a vegan protein drink that has no nuts in it that allergic people can drink?
@@taylorfusher2997 exactly we need to remove this idea that getting rid of some single bad guy is going to save us, we have to accept the possibility of everything to begin with and work with community and land to regenerate the best we can for all and then see what we should eat from the abundance. not just go into things by imposing our delusions and waiting to be saved. all this guy does is sit at home debunking people for the sake of his identity, is that really benefiting anyone?
To @pneumonical: What if we eat everything, what if we eat plant based food and meat based food in a balance diet? What if we eat meat, plants, vegetables, fruits, nuts, dairy milk, cheese, crabs and fish in a curtain amounts a day? You just have to balance your diet more often. But I am not a expert, I am not a amateur, I am just guessing. I do not know. I do not truly know.
@@taylorfusher2997 once we reestablish a better way of life which isnt relying on food being shipped half way across the world we would know what to eat because it would all fit perfectly, imo, that would most likely look like eating mostly animal based as native and indigenous people did and civilizations before monocrop ag.
A better example of vegan imperialism would be veganism being used as propaganda by the Israeli state and the IDF to promote or whitewash Israeli settler colonialism. (Coming from a vegan btw)
My girlfriend and I went vegan three years ago for environmental reasons and stayed vegan for the animals. The only regret we have is that we didn’t do it sooner. I grew up on a dairy farm and ate animal products every day for 28 years. If I can change, anyone can. I see a big shift happening which gives me hope for a brighter future! Thanks for the great videos Mic. You’re an inspiration!
Thank you. As a leftist and vegan, sometimes I feel its very sad to see how dismissive (most of) the left can be about veganism and usually bringing arguments that tries to point that being vegan has no benefits in the fight against animal cruelty and against climate change. This video touches this topic masterfully.
Then you aren't a leftist, and that's very much ok! If by leftist you hold the Marxist belief that humans are alienated from their labour by capitalism and that once you're aware of this you have a duty to overthrow capitalism then animals aren't oppressed in a way that a Marxist imagines is significant. Under capitalism, as Marx imagines it, only some classes are capable of becoming aware of their alienation. The lumpenproletariat can not and definitely, animals can't either - why? because they can't make experience (it's a german Hegelian thing) . But LSS animals aren't a class that can be radicalised to lead a revolution therefore they don't strictly speaking suffer. Being a leftist and a vegan for the animals- is very much like saying you're an Evangelical Christian and you understand Evolution. The facts in one don't fit in the belief of the other.
Interestingly, studies show that humans are several times less likely to become vegan when they are Republican or Conservative, versus Democrat or Liberal. Many humans do not want to change and get defensive when compassion towards animals is discussed. They essentially want to keep doing what they are doing and ignore the details. I believe one study showed that humans brains are wired differently and some have more empathy?.
yes, this describes it perfectly. I was really disappointed since his videos are usually very educated and convincing, but this one just came off as projecting his own personal insecurities about even remotely reducing his consumption of animal products.
Yeah I think he was looking into the extreme harms of animal agriculture because they are inescapable at this point but was like, 'how do I NOT have to do this vegan thing?'
Been vegan for 4 months and still going strong! Your channel and the community here have helped me when I have moments where I lose sight of why I began this journey. So far, I feel like a million bucks. Im 32 but I feel like I’m 22 again🙌. I’ve finally reached the point where the initial bloat has gone down and I’ve lost 7 lbs🥳 My blood pressure has gone down to the normal range, my skin is glowing and my overall mood/energy levels/happiness have drastically improved. I had spent my entire adult life going on and off different anti-depression and anxiety meds, and I managed to safely ween myself off of them these past months. I feel a stronger connection with nature and have an even deeper love and appreciation for our animal friends than i would’ve imagined. Thank you lovely people for providing a safe place for me to make this transition💚
I like being "the change I want to see in the world" and spreading the word and influencing those around me. It's so easy to do my part. I wish everyone would wake up and make the world a kinder place. Thanks for being a great human.
@@Nobody-Nowhere The world can become better without capitalism ending; slavery ended, Jim Crow ended, etc. Were people being the change they wanted to see in the world for things like that just feeling good about themselves?
@@Cancellator5000 Slavery hasn't ended. Look at the 13th amendment and global trafficking and slave trade. This is a lie we tell ourselves, the truth is we do need an end of capital society to bring about systematic change. One fundamental pillar to capitalism is growth and we can't grow forever. Sustainable living is something capitalism cannot and will not provide.
@@Cancellator5000 As Donna Haraway said; it is obviously more than just capitalism, but if we had to sum up the last 600 years, capitalism is a very good approximation. And if I can add to that, even if it is not capitalism ending all at once, is fighting against it's particular breed of exploitation of people, animals, and our very planet. We ended nominal slavery, yes. However It still exist in practice (and I do not mean just wage slavery), there also are people that live even worse than what slaves did. Our liberal democracies are rigged against us by big corporations, and some can't even participate in that flawed system. Let alone consider the agency of the non-human beings veganism also aim to empower. We archive things, but if we do not change its system, it just reconfigures around or victories. That does't mean we shouldn't make small incremental changes. We should and we must also do that. But also shouldn't miss our broader historical context; capitalism.
LOVED your response! So insightful. I was really annoyed when the "changing climate" guy said, well, it's hard so really that is a reason not to go vegan. It is hard to get up in the morning and go to work, it is hard to be nice to customers if you are in retail, it is hard to be polite to in-laws, c'mon, being human means doing hard things!
These types of environmentalists aren't interested in real achievable goals, they will reject all ideas for one reason or another unless it involves completely dismantling human civilization or some shi 😂
I was born in the 70s to vegetarian parents. There was a single health food coop in our city back then, and even tofu was hard to come by. Slowly over the years I’ve seen a massive increase in the amount of vegetarian and vegan ready-made and processed foods available at all types of grocery stores from Walmart to the PX/Commissary system on military bases. It is the demand from more and more plant based folks that has increased the supply of these things as food companies seek to cash in on the market. I never dreamed of a thing called a veggie burger growing up, and now there’s more options than I can count. Even brew pubs often carry veggie burgers and salads now, and they do it cause people want them. What a strange argument against going vegan!
Also vegetables, fruits and non meat substances do not have B12 vitamin. Only meat has B12 vitamin. Did someone lie to me? I am mean I am not a expert but this is what many experts are saying. Also what nutrients does only meat has that vegetables, fruits and non-meat does not have?
@@taylorfusher2997The animals you eat were injected with b12 supplements. Skip the middleman. Also anyone over age 40, no matter what diet they eat, should take a b12 supplement. 10mcg daily. Meat raises heart disease risk because of the saturated and trans fats inherent in it and it also raises colorectal cancer and other cancers as well. Science is a wonderful thing.
@@taylorfusher2997 I eat way more diverse now that i'm vegan than in all my 44 years of non vegan leading up to it. Life most definitely not get more boring.
@@taylorfusher2997 B-12 comes from bacteria in soil, and is also found in surface water that hasn’t been sterilized. Farm animals that graze eat enough of the bacteria to synthesize B-12 and accumulate it in their flesh. If you pull a carrot out of the ground, brush it off and eat it dirty you can get B-12 too, but everything is sanitized before we eat it these days, so we need to supplement.
THANK YOU FOR RESPONDING TO THIS. When I originally watched his video I was infuriated. The guy is just another environmentalist who eats meat, he did a video on how regenerative animal ag could work.
@@IsmelinaCafuir I saw your comment about how you've watched OCC's videos for awhile and wondered about his vegan stance. I'm the same. I've always enjoyed his videos, especially his ones on Solarpunk and eco-socialism. Although, I'm always disapointed when he doesn't mention veganism in this utopian future. 😒
Hello fellow leftist vegan! Since the maker of Our Changing Climate opposes the exploitation of humans by other humans, perhaps he’ll be convinced soon to go vegan and be opposed to the exploitation of animals by humans
Hard same. I've been watching OCC's videos for a long while and wondered if he's also vegan. Based on how he basically nailed the vegan bingo in the same video he's citing the many pros of veganism, he's not. 😂😂😂😂
But this wasn't anti-vegan. Maybe just a narrow definition of veganism, since it is so much more than just consumption of plant-based food instead of holistic political veganism. But that simplified version is the dominant one. Besides, the broader spectrum of problems are still there. If all the planet turned plant-based, it would be amazing! But as a fellow leftist, we should agree that that still leaves the capitalism system of production in place. You have to add other political movement to that to really change the world. Plus, neo-liberal culture and how we behave is way more complicated that just a "vote with your wallet" flowchart. Capitalism rearranges and adapts to our advances. "Internal contradictions" and all of that, the exploitation of our planet and all beings on it is still here. We should do even more.
It really pisses me off that we have no say that our tax dollars go to fund all the meat and dairy check-off programs, subsidies, and other things I despise... like the military industrial complex that hemorrhages our money with zero accountability. Corruption is too mild a word.
To be fair most of what actually makes up the meat subsidy is the crop subsidy. It's just a reflection of the fact the producers situate the market such that we make meat cheaper by consumer more crops. Understanding it this way actually helps illustrate better the point the video this video is criticizing is making. Anything that makes crops cheaper makes meat cheaper. So taking away many forms of subsidies and insurance wouldn't actually directly help the situation.
Also vegetables, fruits and non meat substances do not have B12 vitamin. Only meat has B12 vitamin. Did someone lie to me? I am mean I am not a expert but this is what many experts are saying. Also what nutrients does only meat has that vegetables, fruits and non-meat does not have?
@@taylorfusher2997Farm raised animal life Stock does get their B12 supplemented, they don’t actually make it themselves. It is bacteria which is a byproduct from their digestion process deep in their guts. Most is just washed/taken away when the manure is cleared. The food they are eating, (mostly corn, soy and alfalfa grass does not contain any B12 thus it needs to be supplemented. You could just take that B12 supplement yourself and don’t need to relay on a middleman who is tortured and killed needlessly, besides of the environmental impact AG has on the planet. Yes meat has some antinutrients plants don’t contain: saturated fats, cholesterol, IGF1, antibiotics just to name a few and they don’t contain any fibre which is essential for a healthy gut flora, every whole plant food contains fibre processed oils don’t. You are welcome. I hope this helps you to shift to a healthy whole plant based diet, not only for your health but also for the health of our planet.
@@taylorfusher2997 The only thing that meat has that plants don't is saturated fat and cholesterol. We can make every protein ourselves from the amino acids provided by plants. Also b12 is made in the soil by bacteria, in past we were much less hygienic so more dirt was ingested. Same for the animals, they often get supplemented now too because they don't get to see dirt or grass anymore.
Glad you wanted a response because I didn't see any specific requests lol. It is important to think about what really changes animal ag production and he was right that it is more than just vegans but as you know I think he was too dismissive of vegans.
Always love these response vids! I was struck by him mentioning the emotional bits: veganism being "restrictive;" eating disorders; and cultural significances of meat incorporation into a diet. All of those are much more multi-layered and have very little to do with veganism at all. A way of eating is only "restrictive" if you are surrounded by those items you don't have access to. So, the question should then become: Why do I not have more access to vegetables? NOT Should I still be a vegan? A person did not develop an eating disorder because they became vegan. So, the question should become: What emotional supports should we be providing to those who have disordered eating habits? NOT Should people with disordered eating habits still be vegans? And the foods we eat within our families that give us the feel-goods are not significant because of the food themselves, but are actually significant because of the bonds and love between the people in the community. So, the question should become: How can we honour our families and our communities through all different types of modalities? NOT Should a person not be a vegan because that would bring shame and disrespect to our families and communities? Spending more time thinking about the questions we are asking is crucial to beginning to solve any of these environmental and societal issues.
I wrote this comment under Our changing Climate's video: I want to explain something about the "consumer-driven action is ineffective" argument in regards to animal foods. Generally I agree with this statement. As consumers, we can "vote with our dollar" by buying more ethical products and avoiding less ethical ones, but this generally doesn't exert much change on the system, because these things need to be regulated at the production end, which is where all the power is. But food is a commodity unlike other consumables. Food is constantly in demand. Everyone needs to eat, several times per day. It's not like buying clothes, or a car, or a phone, where purchases are more infrequent and the industry has to use advertising to create demand and entice people to buy their product. Food (in general, not talking about any specific food) needs no marketing. Demand is constant. Food is a zero sum game. If you don't eat one type of food, you will eat another. If you don't eat animal based foods, you will by necessity eat plant based foods. This means that if a company doesn't provide you with plant based foods, you will go to their competitor. They will necessarily lose that share in the market, and their competitor will be advantaged. I drink soy milk instead of dairy milk. I will never buy dairy milk. I only ever buy plant-based milk. The dairy industry has lost my custom, and the soy milk industry has gained it. (Notice that this effectively doubles your vote - you're both supporting plant industries and penalising animal industries.) Food is lucrative business. More people going vegan represents substantial loss to the animal agriculture industry. This loss cannot be recouped by encouraging increased consumption of the animal based product. Most people are already drinking their ideal quantity of milk. They're already buying the amount that they want to drink. You can't get people to, say, double their milk purchases, because it will just go off. It's not like buying a pair of jeans, where you can buy more and just stuff them in your closet. The only thing a company can do to capture those lost profits is to provide a plant based product. Hence, going vegan is more powerful than most people realise.
Did you help out in the comment section? I "wasted" a solid hour on that video's comments and often do on that channel, because it seems to miss so much. So many points are so easily refuted with a just a little research. Anyway, he needs to hear more often how wrong he is about veganism in the first place. It's not about saving the climate (or ourselves) to begin with. It's about the animals we abuse and exploit. You'd think someone who spent so much time criticizing capitalism would better understand the exploitation component. I did become vegan because of the environment, but I STAY vegan because of the animals. People who eat plant based solely for the ecological impact aren't really considering the ethics of what happens to the animals.... they are just worried about their own survival
@@MattAngiono while disproving misconceptions is to be applauded, his perspective of veganism (or rather plant-based lifestyle) was for its enviromental benefits. While the primary concern of veganism is animal welfare, that is not an aspect his channel focuses on. That audience might very well not be into the ethics, but just care about how large the impact would be on the environment and mitigating climate change.
@@Tinky1rs as you noted, veganism is an ethical stance about animals and how we treat them. I understand he's focusing on how it impacts the environment (or most notably how that affects US), but what he describes then is plant based diets. I think there's enough people who care about the environment, not because they are selfish and only concerned with their future, but also about the many creatures that inhabit it. These are EXACTLY the kind of people that should be aware of veganism and the ethics behind it. If you love animals, as these people usually do, they should be exposed to the hypocrisy in their actions. That's often the only thing that gets people to change this lifestyle. If you believe veganism is only about the environment, which is a daunting and almost impossible task to fix, it's very easy to compromise and only do some plant based eating, and still think highly of your actions. With a vegan position, you don't cheat hardly at all, because that would be equivalent to saying rape can be okay if it's only once in awhile....
I have Lot of left leaning friends who are very much of the same mindset as this guy. It gives a whole new meaning to sacred cow. Don’t get in the way of their beef, or they will go off on you. Seriously, I see them as drug addicts , and you are coming down on their supply! It can get ugly fast.
The bit dog yelps the loudest. These are people that have their self worth and identity tied up in "doing the right thing for society", and "helping the oppressed", and it's a cognitive dissonance internal conflict bomb going off in them because they're guilty and they're getting mad at the implicit accusation as they experience it, and so lash out. They haven't managed to master themselves or contemplate things, and so aren't able to take criticism or self reflect in the moment. Granted, that's hard for most people when you challenge their core beliefs, and they end up reflexively trying to defend their behavior instead.
I am baffled by how “lefties” are against suppression and discrimination of minorities, but at the same are perfectly OK with eating enslaved sentient beings. 🤷🏻♂️
Thank yo so much for this Mic, I generally love “our changing climate” and they do phenomenal research for their videos. But veganism always seems to be a strange blindspot so I was beyond thrilled to see you replying to this. As a Marxist myself I see veganism as inherently interwoven to our collective liberation. Appreciate your stuff as always 🙏🏻
This is one problem with modern "news" and information. People think they need to give "both sides" of an argument to seem impartial. But there are things we're doing a disservice by doing that with. Some things have the predominance of information on their side and giving the "other view point" time just muddies the waters and confuses people
Haven't watched the whole video but at 4;00 I'm already totally out. The whole point of capitalism is built upon the demand of the consumer. To say consumers don't drive change in capitalism is foolish.
It's one of my biggest gripes with fellow socialists; the idea that there's no ethical consumption under capitalism, so just focus on ending capitalism. I much prefer the vegan idea of minimizing problematic consumption as much as possible. If you aren't doing as much as you're able to challenge exploitative labor practices and stuff like that, then you're propping up the system more than you need to and you are acting in a way that signals you don't think a better world is possible. The only thing that turns me off a certain degree is that under capitalism ethics become a commodity, so you get the impression that in a lot of cases you are being charged a premium not because the cost of production is any different, in some cases it's less, but because you are buying something that is more ethical making it seem unattainable for average people.
I just throw this in here: "Capitalism" is derived from capital, which evolved from capitale, a late Latin word based on caput, meaning "head"-which is also the origin of "chattel" and "cattle" in the sense of movable property (only much later to refer only to livestock). If anyone wants to argue that Capitalism and livestock can be separate things... I am done. We ourselves are livestock and only by understanding how we got in this ever hotter mess we could (in theory) change things around. Veganism is by definition the anti-thesis of capitalism. If you think you can be a capitalist vegan you are not vegan but a plant based capitalist.
I understand both points: 1) Yes, as an individual you are providing a demand, so long as you are consuming a product they will continue providing 2) Yes, as a corporation you will continue to produce a product so long as it is subsidized (aka paid by taxes) and governments allow you to In both cases we all have some power over the outcome but the collective power of individuals and government are needed in order to bring this system to a full stop. If the government continues to fund these products even if the meat rots on the shelf they are still making a profit. Animals will continue to be slaughtered until we all demand that it comes to halt. We can't just blame it on the consumer because the amount of misinformation through propaganda is making it difficult for people to see the real issue.
Meat rotting in stores across the nation would not go on for long. Believing that something will continue to be produced when no one is buying it, feels like Marxist ideological entrenchment.
Thank you for making the point clear! You need both approaches. Systematic change brings individual change and vice versa. There is no easy or simple fixes, going vegan is great if you can do that. It won't save us on it's own though as not everyone will choose veganism on their own accord (which is where systematic change comes into play). If it isn't also cheap, convenient, socially acceptable (some religious people mainly far right evangelicals think vegans are some of the worst people imaginable). Sometimes not everything comes down to a logical argument. Some people cannot be swayed into your way of thinking through facts or logical alone.
As usual, top-down + bottom-up is the way to go. Except OCC is arguing against bottom-up change making for some reason. He's making videos for people at the bottom to watch... Not sure if he knows who his audience is. Collective action won't happen immediately though, as you might imply. There is a critical mass to it as change accelerates towards an animal-free food system, and Mic is right about vegans leading that charge.
So Dole and Del-Monte they get tax payer subsidies every year. So when you buy your pineapples, and other plants to fill your belly. Just remember that the owners are making millions from tax payer subsidies. They are also feeding money to government officials so they can get away with having illegal immigrants to slave away in their fields
Ive seen a bunch of large anti-capitalist content creators make statements where they say that vegans are morally, environmentally and economically correct. But instead of telling their massive audiences to consider changing their diet, they go on to say that even though vegans are right in every way, individual changes and action is pointless. I totally agree that change only happens with collective action and then legislation, but if videos like these and large anti-capitalist content creators keep saying its pointless to change as an individual and the vegans are "cringe", how the fu*k do we get people on board with collective action and anti-trust legislation against large meat producers? I've felt very hopeless lately about this fight due to the fact that even anti-capitalists won't say what's the truth about veganism.
@@ybokors8524i completely disagree that if it were completely democratic we would still be eating meat. This entirely misses the influence of marketing and advertising. If anyone is interested in the left’s current ideas about the system Paul Cockshott’s “towards a new socialism” and Midwestern Marxist (a TH-cam channel so search for it there) have just realised a new book called “the purity fetish” both of which i would highly recommend if youre interested :)
Fighting the climate crisis requires a top down and ground up approach. We need to do both. Adopting a plant based diet is one of the most effective things an individual can do; one can also limit or curtail travel via private cars and/or planes, and limit or stop shopping for new manufactured goods. And, it’s also important to be involved in politics; to vote, call our representatives, sign petitions, write directly to companies, and raise awareness. We can do both. The necessity of the latter does not detract from the effectiveness of the former. It just means there are many ways to fight the climate crisis. I actually think going vegan is one of the easiest things a person can do.
This insinuation that consumer choice is a myth is one of the most dangerous notions out there. Consumer choice is the single, solitary reason any of these industries exist. Gradually increasing conscientiousness is our greatest weapon against them, and it's the consumers who must adopt that conscientiousness. It is so easy for a consumer to make a better choice. The trick is simply to make them aware of this.
The person behind Our Changing Climate is a probably a socialist…as a socialist myself, I understand a potential for change is through a mass strike wave…in the case of animal agriculture, imagine the workers of that industry walking off the job around the world refusing to exploit animals anymore and demanding to make plant based foods and clothes instead…the industry would be in well deserved chaos That said, many socialists seem to downplay the importance of boycotts…if the public boycotts animal exploitation, those industries profiting off animals will still fall…i welcome both strikes and boycotts
Exactly. It’s nor pastoralists who are burning down the Amazon rainforest, it’s animal agriculture corporations who are only doing it for profit. Reduced demand causes lower prices which results in not cutting down more rainforest. Because more supply would lower prices even more, to where additional animal agriculture would be unprofitable.
Awareness isn't the only issue. If the price of meat remains low people will keep eating it. But it directly snubs all of the plants that could have been sold on the market making virtually all food cheaper. It's directly a tragedy of the commons issue and can only be solved through mass action or government regulation. Sure doing that through consumption is possible but it seems like the hard way.
@@Furiends One type of mass action would be advocating for a permanent boycott of meat, dairy, eggs, and items made out of leather, fur, and feathers …that’s what vegans around the world are pushing for (among other things like ending testing on animals)
@@vietnamd0820 Or ya know.. a ban along with subsidizing alternatives like faux fur. boycotting kind of makes no sense. It does make sense for there to be enough people interested in plant based products for those to be developed and marketed. But a boycott could just as well make meat cheaper for meat eaters and raise meat consumption.
This video, for all its many flaws, does do a good job of summarizing the basic positions of each side, maybe better than any video I've ever seen. They completely filled out the bingo card of non-vegan excuses, especially leftist non-vegans However, if it needed to be said, most of those excuses are highly dumb, and they are presented without enough pushback whatsoever. Its purpose is just making complacent people feel okay continuing to be complacent (and, ultimately, ensuring the target audience isn't offended and feels validated, which is the primary motivation for a lot of TH-camrs)
Good points, especially at the end there. Making sure at least a majority of the viewers don’t feel “attacked” even though come on let’s face it, we all need to be called out about SOMETHING or another. We may as well use constructive criticism to our benefit & develop ourselves.
@@FuriendsI mean, when you’re aware that all meat is now classified as carcinogens then… it’s kind of a no-brainer especially when it hurts people, animals & the environment all at the same time. I’m a woman military veteran building muscle on a vegan diet… on a tight budget. It’s so freaking doable it’s ridiculous.
@@cryco472 Sorry my point didn't have enough context. There's a lot of vegan downplaying on the Internet that just consists of "Don't panic. You can still eat meat just don't eat beef."
I think issues such as fast fashion and fossil fuels should not be compared to veganism as they are infinitely more complex and intertwined with issues such as poverty or accessibility, while *in comparison to ditching those* implementing veganism (even though can still be complicated for certain individuals with less accessibility) is much simpler, cheaper and straight forward, which why it is pushed as "the solution"
I realized that individual action often inspires collective action and that’s why I encourage people to live their values. If you do eat meat then you should still advocate for better farms and regulation.
Your headphones match your hair color so closely it looked like you were wearing a 1700’s Revolutionary era wig in the thumbnail photo. Also, great video as usual!
28 year old woman here. No meat for 6 years, no dairy for about 4, no backyard eggs and honey for 3. After adopting vegan diet my PCOS healed completely, finally got pain free healthy periods (once my cramps were so strong I almost passed out). Right now pregnant. At my first doctor visit, he advised me to take iron supplement before I even told him for my diet, because so many of pregnant women are low - last blood test I took for iron and feritin at 18 weeks pregnant showed ideal levels without any supplementation. Right now at 23 weeks, checking my blood pressure daily - ideal levels. Next week going to take glucose tolerance test, hoping for the best. Had no morning sickness and a few days of sore feet, but it somehow passed. I work 8-9 hours shifts at a caffe so I'm on my feet practically all day and no swelling at all so far. I absolutely believe I have easy, healthy, happy and active pregnancy beacuse of my diet!!! But the societal pressure is so real. I've wanted to have a baby but always had anxiety if vegan diet was safe. Since I found out I'm pregnant been researching about wholefood plant based diet almost every day. I think it's subconsciously because our family will have such a hard time accepting and adjusting to the fact that the kid will be vegan, since after all this time they still didn't accept me as a vegan. They put so much meaning in their food, family get togethers and celebrations. They still don't understand why I won't even try their traditional nutroll they've worked on for a whole day, or Christmas cookies they give us ("but it's just a tiny bit of milk/ but there's just one egg, and it's from our back yard" 😪😴). They will be excellent! grand parents and great-grand parents BUT it's making me anxious how will they push the food when we won't be present. Such a shame.... Now more than ever I'm convinced it's the healthiest option for a child, not only morally comfortable for me. Thank you so much for your work, it gave me a lot of support and confidence. You are a comprehensive source of information and an inspiration for further research. I truly appreciate your chanel.
One of the fundamental flaws Mic has is the assumption that supply and demand is how market economies work. It’s not because control over production is not on the consumer end, but on the possibilities laid out by the capitalist class interest. And these interests are always going to favor, conservation and acceleration of current conditions and habits. The best outcome under markets is a large diversity of options but a preservation of animal agriculture. Capitalism treats people as disposable (reserve Army of labor, large homeless population, and medical access disparity) Without humans achieving a direction of equity of mutual respect and care animal liberation will not be accessible. The best outcome is a cessation of violence that preserves violence itself. There for the dismantling capitalism and establishing a new comic foundation is necessary for animal liberation.
@@OmegaPointZen ideas and the material world all influence each other. However, material is real and ideas are not. So in this dialectical relationship matter comes first. Veganism like all ethical positions, come out of ideals. All ideals emerge in response to the material reality around them. Therefore, it is impossible to make drastic material changes with ideals alone. A vegan world is impossible as long as exploitive modes of production exist. Because without the removal of that essential barrier, the material and by extent, cultural structures of humanity, cannot progress to this moral position of animal liberation. And all this is not saying there shouldn’t be ethical, ideal and moral struggle in the subject. It’s just we have to properly identify actual barriers to progress in order to address them. We cannot present present a moral question in a position of commanding people to bow to it. These positions and angles have to be empowered and enabled. We cannot bend to the world to our position by wishing there has to be organization and study and planning. The answer is not veganism alone. That is something that needs to be advanced, and grown as a these barriers are addressed and replaced with different structures establish through political and scientific struggle. That is what the video Mic is reacting to is saying.
I did mention that now more than even there are forces to hold animal agriculture in place even as demand lowers. I only put it in the chart and didn't say it but we have $50 billion in subsidies to animal ag which bypass consumer demand. That is why I was advocating for people to vote in anti-animal ag politicians as they defund from the consumer side which is $80 billion in retail meat sales alone. I do agree that capitalism is harmful to the bottom workers and one of the notes I didn't add because the video was getting too long was that a 16-year old recently died in a slaughterhouse in Mississippi right as child labor laws are being rolled back in states like Iowa where I am. Another note I had was that even under another form of government like democratic socialism, communism, etc., if the people desire high levels of meat it is possible that animal ag could be just as large of a system as it is now. Theoretically it could be larger, especially in some type of direct democracy voting system where people vote for their meat allotment. Systems of government are still run by people (unless they are AI based lol) and the ratio of meat eater to vegan is the largest factor in how large the animal ag system is in my belief at least. Thanks.
Ok then, explain the prohibition of lead in paint, lead on combustion engines. Under your theory those industries should keep going forever in larger and larger scale, because capitalist class or something, but both are prohibited in the western countries because people voted for politicians that agreed on prohibiting them, you don't have to dismantle the whole capitalist system to make good changes, I would argue, it's better to make the good changes first before dismantling it so people can more easily adapt
@@miraelgato392 idealisms versus pragmatism are different things. Lead was banned out of pragmatic response to health and environmental damage. Meat production is something that is both economic and culturally deeply ingrained and tied to human identities. These are not comparable subjects.
When seatbelts were introduced many people refused to use them. It was only when not using them became illegal people used them in mass scale. I understand that video in the same way.. most people simply won’t become vegan no matter how strong the arguments are. We need more mechanisms to enforce change on people who are so ignorant which unfortunately is the majority of people right now
This is like waiting for consumers to stop driving cars. You just can't realistically get big enough number to be useful. Plus the system fights you back at every turn. It's not like climate change has a deadline. Systematic issues need systematic solutions. (I'm also vegan btw)
I personally dislike the argument that veganism causes eating disorders, because becoming vegan (WFPB specifically) saved me from literal decades of eating disorders. Starving myself followed by bingeing and purging for 26 years of my life. I now eat large, satisfying l, healthy meals and have reached and maintain a healthy weight eating this way. I no longer need to starve myself which leads to bingeing. I don’t eat addictive foods anymore which also lead to bingeing. I’m not saying it’s impossible to have an eating disorder as a vegan, but for me it was the opposite.
I've almost watched the whole video now, but i just noticed i opened it when it still had "no views", which is the second time. i'm such a loyal viewer 😂
So as a system thinker (and vegan) myself I agree with the approach that there should be more tactics for people to aim for change. However due to learned hopelessness and how the system is build, most people don't know how to change a system this complex (for most people) so therefore making a individual choice (going vegan) is just simpler then changing a system. This is the classic "individual change vs system change". Both can be right. Its just simpler to say to people to change their behaviour then it is to change a system from within. That companies and politicians are screaming for individual change however WITHOUT actually making structural change (especially politicians) is downright absurd. They litteraly have the tools to make system change. Normal people don't have those tools. The only tool we have is to vote people into office that will pass legislate against meat. But the chances are bigger voting someone into office that is against meat if more people are vegan. The more people are vegan the more people will be there to vote for a vegan politician. Since eating meat is so culturally bound (the argument of Changing Climate itself) the likelyhood that a non vegan will fight for a non-mean industry is just a fairy tail. We here in the Netherlands have a non-meat party called Party for the Animals. Guess what; they are vegan. I also would argue that due to the complexity of the system going vegan is way way more easy then to change a system from within. Most people just don't understand how the system works. We need more videos about that and that is the strength of Changing Climate. But everyone whi understands the system also understands its simply supply and demand that could push us over the threshold culture of what is 'normal' to eat. You can't expect politicians and companies to change a cultural aspect (wich is eating meat) if not at least 25% of the people WANT that change. Hence the advocacy of veganism. A vegan party cant excist if there arent vegans who are willing to support it. And you cant get there without at least 20% of the extremes who are pushing the overton window towards more cultural acceptence of eating plantbased. There is no chance from the top (except from Dictators) without culture chance from within. And like Ed says; companies can me a difference here too by making it cheaper. More accessable etc. One of the baddest videos i have seen from Changing Climate. Bad arguments. If you want to have have the argument we need to do more structural change - every vegan agrees. But you can make that argument without bashing veganism or make silly agruments that plantbased is likely to give you more eating disorders. Thats just louzy. Vegan and structural change go hand in hand. Not one or the other. We need both. And both reinforce each other ❤
At least he acknowledges the horrors of the dairy industry. The egg industry grounds up baby chicks alive and the chickens are totally exploited and suffer in battery cages, in massive sheds with no room to move and an overwhelming stench of ammonia, with countless physical injuries, starvation and mental stress. And all that before the inevitable. Liking eggs is not worth their suffering. There are other options.
I think a lot of people got the impression that "our changing climate" wanted to talk about arguments against veganism just to downplay how easy it is to go vegan. I just don't think that is what he wanted to propose, because from a purely enviremental view, it's true that doing things that restrict yourself in some way (not driving by car/not traveling by airplane/going vegan...) can be intimidating. At the start of the video he stated that he will only be talking about the enviremental problems with animal agriculture, if he hadn't said that, then this point of his would be wrong.
It definitely is the answer if the question is “How can I dramatically reduce my carbon footprint and at the same time help eliminate the extreme level of cruelty our species is inflicting on the other animals on this planet?”
Au'dhd people do sometimes eat "comfort" foods aka safe foods for daysss so I understand why he threw that in there but our safe foods also change and therefore can be vegan
The comparison to carbon footprint was weak. Even if all individuals reduced their carbon footprint significantly, yes you still have industries emitting huge amounts of carbon. But that doesn't translate to meat and dairy. Manufacturing equipment doesn't eat meat, trailer trucks don't run off cheese. Only individuals eat food, individual purchases drive what food is produced.
Also I think people tend to overestimate how much meat they really eat on average and how important that meat in their dish really is. I would say for most people it's going to be easier to first be vegetarian, and later transition into veganism. Especially with all new meat alternatives (in UK there's a lot of them) it shouldn't be that difficult. It's really not that hard as some people on the internet might say.
It rly isn't that hard, but it's the fact that the vegan alternatives "taste weird," have a weird texture, or just "aren't the same." So to them the sacrifice isn't worth the pleasure
Also, I think the benefits to the hospital system (from people eating mostly plant-based, whole foods of course) would be great. The number of masks, gloves, needles, operations (gallbladder removals, cancer surgeries, heart surgeries), etc. would be significantly lower (still present). This is why proactive medicine/prevention is so valuable for the planet and for people. It is just way more sustainable to maintain a car, than to buy a whole new one (same goes for peoples' bodies). Reminds me of Denis Burkitt's correlation of large stools with small hospitals (traditionally diets) VS small stools with big hospitals (western junk diets, little fiber).
I disable subscription notifications at the app level and add everything in my subscription feed to the watch later playlist to watch whenever I get around to it. I only need to be notified about urgent things.
I ate chicken for three days and man did I stink! could smell it coming out in my skin was embarresed, got really depressed , I didn't go out for three days cause I stunk!
So the message of their video is ‘Animal agriculture is really damaging to the climate and environment, and being vegan is an important part of the solution BUT I don’t wanna.’
12:36 In Brazil there are a bunch of favelas based vegan movements that disprove this as an argument. This take is used by carnists and carnistic big executives that resist change with excuses.
It's nice that he at least is coming at it from a radical socialist perspective rather than an anti-science, anti-vegan one. But ye, hard to imagine how changes in demand wouldn't radically change supply.
The comparison in the middle of the video (carbon footprint shaming etc etc) is misguided. Because the meat industry is DIRECTLY linked to dietary choices. It's not a biking vs driving = CO²a CO²B. It's Meat eater + corporation = meat industry
Your diagrams are amazing! So well thought through. Thanks for your content!! The girlfriend of Niko Rittenau (Niko wrote many books about veganism, and also co-wrote a book with Ed Winters) started eating 2 eggs a day to recover from an unknown illness. Niko thinks she can not convert linoleic acid into arachadonic acid, and therefor she suffered from arachadonic acid deficiency. This is just his guess. Without testing his hypothesis, she started eating eggs a few months ago, and they will test it later, they said. I speak German, I could translate it if you want. Also, Niko Rittenau did not want to publish a book about nutrition for pregnant women that he co-wrote.
@@MictheVegan That's the weird part, that they did not get the tests, but just started experimenting with eating 2 eggs a day for many weeks, and now (a year?) later he tells this to his audience and says "we are going to have her tested to see if the hypothesis is right."
I also find it interesting that when vegan food is shown it is always greens and salads and never mashed potatoes or pasta or banana bread or on and on. And then they pooh pooh beyond burgers as evil, acting as if they aren't eating any food that has additives, when the exact opposite is true.
These kinds of videos always massively bungle the messaging in the end, and it's always the ending takeaway that is going to stick with people. It doesn't matter how compelling the data presented before, two sentences can justify complacency and lack of action, and they always do that.
Fiftyplusbeauty just had a stroke on a high fat meat diet. She then has a Dr Ali explaining how high fat is better. I hope you do a video debunking her dangerous stuff 😳
Wow, Mic, very thorough and convincing rebuttal Powerful flowcharts! I'd like to see you and "Our Changing Climate" in a moderated debate. on a popular podcast. Take 'em down!
Great commentary! I think the biggest flaw with comparing adopting veganism with the personal carbon footprint campaign is that when consumer adopt veganism they directly impact the main demand within the meat industry, whereas when you try to lower your carbon footprint you have to change a large number of things and you'll still only affect a fraction of the demand of the fossil fuel. Every single industry relies on energy, and as a consumer you have proportionally very little direct power to change the energy sources of each industry and brand. Even then, demand for lower carbon footprint still has market influence and has shifted global energy demands and investments as consumers become more aware. Veganism has a much more direct (inverse) relationship to the production of meat and is therefore very effective. Good luck trying to counteract giant corporations without a significant consumer base advocating against it....
How can we get together to put a stop to AG subsidies, 38 Billion of the US tax money is just insane, that’s over 100 dollars for every person living in the US per year.
I had an unbalanced vegan diet for some time - because I went through a stage of eating quite a bit of junk food. However, once I realised what I'd done and paid a bit more attention, eliminating the sweets and crisps, (at the same time my local supermarket really expanding its 'own brand' vegan range), I've been fine ever since. And no, it's not more 'complicated' to have a vegan diet... That is unless, of course, you buy all your meals from a spotty kid handing you a bag from a drive-thru window.
Great stuff as always, Mic. You are such a refreshing voice of rational thought, analysis and also reasonableness. Fun to see you having some playful, joking fun with your critiques too. Nice for variety. (As I'm sure you know.) Keep up all your great work. The world needs advocates like you, and coming at these big issues from all possible angles. ( e.g., th-cam.com/video/fu5pIZEBEhw/w-d-xo.html )
Having to work in kitchen at a cafe which sells cage egss, and mostly burgers, bacon, fries and chicken.... and so much plastic.... and i find myself eating junk, bread and meat way more than i was .... and i feel crap. Need to get a new job but i live up a mountin and theres limited options up here!
Response to 4:34 - yes they may be responding to how many people are buying the chickens but untimely they are the ones that choose, if they make too many chickens and still need to sell more to make a profit larger than last year (on average a natural evolution of Capitalism otherwise the company eventually goes out of business) they will use different marketing techniques to sell the product like making the leftovers into nuggets, frozen meals etc. that can be stored and sold at a later date. Yes many consumers can create market change but the consumers are heavily influenced by marketing and ideology of the people in power when they don’t have proper education to think critically about what they are consuming (ideology and food). We live in a time of misinformation and very poor education. The horse producers didn’t decide to go out of business no but the car business most likely decided to go into business, this is not to say that this is the solution for veganism imo, we shouldn’t be going ham with marketing as the sole solution, yes maybe it would help education of masses to market a vegan diet in an appealing way but this doesn’t change the root of the issue which is an exploitative system.
If you take away subsidies less people will buy meat (or less of it). As it'll be much more expensive. I think systematic change would be overall more effective then individual change. Even if consumers do practice veganism the meat industry will just get bigger, and subsidies will rise to keep the gravy train going.
I am subscribed to OCC and seen a bunch of his videos, but I usually get the feeling that he downplays the amount of change that individuals can inflict through our day to day choices. Bit demoralising to see and as a vegan myself it makes me feel somewhat hopeless, so in the case of non vegans it probably only perpetuates inaction and reinforces a defeatist mindset
It's funny people are always against factory farming, but then you ask them how they're only eating 95% plant based, or just fishing for fish... and they just end up telling you they're not changing their ways at all. They just say factory farming is bad while not actually changing what they do. So it's basically lip service. They know people can't really see where they're getting meat from, par fast food chains, and so they pretend they go to this ethical farm in the middle of no where or buy from some ethical butcher, but in reality they still buy factory farmed meat. They just know that they can say they're against factory farming and still eat meat from the magical ethical small farms that don't really exist that much, and so not look like a hypocrite or liar. In reality they're doing nothing to change, it's just lip service.
The channel has lots of videos pointing out (rightly, in my opinion) that the environmental crisis we're in is not caused by us as individuals but by capitalism. So it makes sense in that context
I'm not sure I agree that I feel "pressured by the vegan community to be restrictive when consuming ANY meat", it's more that now when I am confined to an environment where there are limited options (holidays in places w limited food options)-thinking of eating animal products makes me feel a bit grossed out.😅
This was popping up a lot, I felt it was some hind of bs and was waiting for some kind of reaction from people like Mike before supporting unknown channels with my views
Im with OurChangingClimate about individual behavior. There is a propaganda of blaming the consumer that certainly does not work and doesn't help. It takes the focus away of the real problem which is our system. If we sit and wait people break free out of nowhere because of their choices in such an exclusivist system. To think us who had great education never saw veganism in schools and to think most people dont even have access to school... individuals will never make the change we need, only the collective system can shift it.
Just because it's the 'system', doesn't mean YOU have to be a part of the problem. Right now, both sides(companies and individuals) are saying the other needs to take the first step. Seeing companies run off supply and demand how can they be the first to shift if there is no demand for it? Once WE make the demand for it, companies will follow suit, because they WANT to make money.
@@ddpwe5269 No one is arguing to be part of the problem. The reality is we need systematic change on top of individual change. The video is just pointing out that veganism on it's own isn't the solution because you won't get everyone on board that way (and likely not a majority either).
The extreme right prime minister of Italy, has banned the selling and advertising of cell based meat or other synthetically produced foods . Ref: BBC article "Italy moves to ban lab-grown meat to protect food heritage"
Mic, he really does have a lot of valid points - the political and Big Business interests in animal farming in the States are massively controlling. Including pushing animal products into the retail and processed products streams that fresh vegetables are being squeezed out of the stores that all too many people have access to. (The whole thing is to ignore the ridiculous wording. ‘Imperialist core’. Seriously?!)
Yeah, Charlie, the creator of OCC, really downplayed the importance of economics in his video, as you rightly pointed out Mike: supply and demand. All of these corporations are making predictions about profit and futures based on assumptions about their customer base: that the customer base won't shrink, only grow. This entirely excuses the agency supply has in changing this relationship, and reinforces the idea that humans are enslaved to corporations, no matter if they're from the "imperial core" or periphery. I think you rightly called out this lapse in logic tho, so great video!
This was extremely good video, if vegans do not understand that veganism must be inherently anti capitalist it does nothing. Currently more and more vegans tend to believe in this "consumer choice" myth.
@@tamhiker1 Its is, as veganism is anti exploitation. And capitalism is for exploitation. Capitalism uses people to generate profits to the owners. Just like it uses animals to generate profits to the owners. All vegan enterprises are doing, is creating a another consumer lifestyle that you can purchase.
Well in his defence of the market mechanism. That 1 or 2% of meat we don't eat locally, the industry will likely just export, cause meat is a world market
Mic I’ve been following your channel before subscribing, you don’t hide your position however, your videos are fact based & balanced. I’ve been WFPB since March I still consume dairy and eggs but, I’m weening myself away. On days that I stick to plants exclusively I end up eating a lot of nuts and nut butters to get needed calories, I’d like to cut down the fats but can’t seem to eat enough calories, any suggestions? Thanks
grains, legumes, nuts, seeds, dried fruit. then maybe add in other things like avocado, hummus nut butter or olive oil. start looking at vegan body builders and what they eat for ideas about getting enough calories. simnet nutrition on TH-cam does lots of recipes and Q and A videos
I lived in a developing country for a few years. My parent's orign country. They aren't eating nearly as much meat as you think they are. And extremely rural places would welcome the convenience of a full stomach over "tradition". Stop speaking for these people. Do you wanna know what's considered a delicacy or comfort food where i lived? Fried bean cake, spicy fried tofu, sweet bread, fried yams and potatoes and chilli soup. No meat. Pounded yam is what even wealthy people eat for comfort. Meat is a status food and local people don't even like that much meat or fish in theirs. Most developing countries have smart phones. They're more worldly and advanced than you think. Stop acting like vegans are trying to confiscate their spears or something.
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 85 | คู่เอก "ยอดเหล็กเพชร vs ผึ้งหลวง"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Qq_19bnnxEo/mqdefault.jpg)
For my argument against the notion that consumers can take down animal ag I should've just responded with the recent article title from CNN: "Tyson is closing four plants as chicken sales slump"
What if someone was allergic to eating plants? What happens if someone is allergic to fruits and vegetables? What about people that are allergic to nuts? What do the allergic people do to get protein? Do they have a vegan protein drink that has no nuts in it that allergic people can drink?
@@taylorfusher2997 exactly we need to remove this idea that getting rid of some single bad guy is going to save us, we have to accept the possibility of everything to begin with and work with community and land to regenerate the best we can for all and then see what we should eat from the abundance. not just go into things by imposing our delusions and waiting to be saved. all this guy does is sit at home debunking people for the sake of his identity, is that really benefiting anyone?
To @pneumonical:
What if we eat everything, what if we eat plant based food and meat based food in a balance diet? What if we eat meat, plants, vegetables, fruits, nuts, dairy milk, cheese, crabs and fish in a curtain amounts a day? You just have to balance your diet more often. But I am not a expert, I am not a amateur, I am just guessing. I do not know. I do not truly know.
@@taylorfusher2997 once we reestablish a better way of life which isnt relying on food being shipped half way across the world we would know what to eat because it would all fit perfectly, imo, that would most likely look like eating mostly animal based as native and indigenous people did and civilizations before monocrop ag.
A better example of vegan imperialism would be veganism being used as propaganda by the Israeli state and the IDF to promote or whitewash Israeli settler colonialism. (Coming from a vegan btw)
My girlfriend and I went vegan three years ago for environmental reasons and stayed vegan for the animals. The only regret we have is that we didn’t do it sooner. I grew up on a dairy farm and ate animal products every day for 28 years. If I can change, anyone can. I see a big shift happening which gives me hope for a brighter future! Thanks for the great videos Mic. You’re an inspiration!
Interesting. You should invite me over for Thanksgiving.
@@legallyregardedCuz that's not creepy or ominous or anything.
"We need to change the world, I will just not be participating "
This.
Thank you. As a leftist and vegan, sometimes I feel its very sad to see how dismissive (most of) the left can be about veganism and usually bringing arguments that tries to point that being vegan has no benefits in the fight against animal cruelty and against climate change. This video touches this topic masterfully.
Then you aren't a leftist, and that's very much ok! If by leftist you hold the Marxist belief that humans are alienated from their labour by capitalism and that once you're aware of this you have a duty to overthrow capitalism then animals aren't oppressed in a way that a Marxist imagines is significant.
Under capitalism, as Marx imagines it, only some classes are capable of becoming aware of their alienation. The lumpenproletariat can not and definitely, animals can't either - why? because they can't make experience (it's a german Hegelian thing) . But LSS animals aren't a class that can be radicalised to lead a revolution therefore they don't strictly speaking suffer.
Being a leftist and a vegan for the animals- is very much like saying you're an Evangelical Christian and you understand Evolution. The facts in one don't fit in the belief of the other.
Right-wingers tend to insist that meat is nutritionally required and leftoids insist it's too expensive to go vegan. I have yet to see their math!
Interestingly, studies show that humans are several times less likely to become vegan
when they are Republican or Conservative, versus Democrat or Liberal. Many humans do
not want to change and get defensive when compassion towards animals is discussed.
They essentially want to keep doing what they are doing and ignore the details. I believe one
study showed that humans brains are wired differently and some have more empathy?.
Imagine identifying as a 'leftist' at this point. Just lol.
@@samlloyd672 Imagine actually having an identity. Pff!
He made the video to defend his lack of motivation to become vegan basically
yes, this describes it perfectly. I was really disappointed since his videos are usually very educated and convincing, but this one just came off as projecting his own personal insecurities about even remotely reducing his consumption of animal products.
Yeah I think he was looking into the extreme harms of animal agriculture because they are inescapable at this point but was like, 'how do I NOT have to do this vegan thing?'
I'm shocked 😂
The guy is plant-based if not vegan, btw.
I ate this while eating a medium rare ribeye in all of your honor!
Been vegan for 4 months and still going strong! Your channel and the community here have helped me when I have moments where I lose sight of why I began this journey. So far, I feel like a million bucks. Im 32 but I feel like I’m 22 again🙌. I’ve finally reached the point where the initial bloat has gone down and I’ve lost 7 lbs🥳 My blood pressure has gone down to the normal range, my skin is glowing and my overall mood/energy levels/happiness have drastically improved. I had spent my entire adult life going on and off different anti-depression and anxiety meds, and I managed to safely ween myself off of them these past months. I feel a stronger connection with nature and have an even deeper love and appreciation for our animal friends than i would’ve imagined. Thank you lovely people for providing a safe place for me to make this transition💚
That's wonderful 😊
Follow Lifting vegan logic and the Nutrivore
I like being "the change I want to see in the world" and spreading the word and influencing those around me. It's so easy to do my part. I wish everyone would wake up and make the world a kinder place. Thanks for being a great human.
As long as this includes anti capitalism, the its good. But if it does not, then its just you feeling good about yourself.
@@Nobody-Nowhere The world can become better without capitalism ending; slavery ended, Jim Crow ended, etc. Were people being the change they wanted to see in the world for things like that just feeling good about themselves?
This comment section is hilarious
@@Cancellator5000 Slavery hasn't ended. Look at the 13th amendment and global trafficking and slave trade. This is a lie we tell ourselves, the truth is we do need an end of capital society to bring about systematic change. One fundamental pillar to capitalism is growth and we can't grow forever. Sustainable living is something capitalism cannot and will not provide.
@@Cancellator5000 As Donna Haraway said; it is obviously more than just capitalism, but if we had to sum up the last 600 years, capitalism is a very good approximation.
And if I can add to that, even if it is not capitalism ending all at once, is fighting against it's particular breed of exploitation of people, animals, and our very planet. We ended nominal slavery, yes. However It still exist in practice (and I do not mean just wage slavery), there also are people that live even worse than what slaves did. Our liberal democracies are rigged against us by big corporations, and some can't even participate in that flawed system. Let alone consider the agency of the non-human beings veganism also aim to empower.
We archive things, but if we do not change its system, it just reconfigures around or victories. That does't mean we shouldn't make small incremental changes. We should and we must also do that. But also shouldn't miss our broader historical context; capitalism.
LOVED your response! So insightful. I was really annoyed when the "changing climate" guy said, well, it's hard so really that is a reason not to go vegan. It is hard to get up in the morning and go to work, it is hard to be nice to customers if you are in retail, it is hard to be polite to in-laws, c'mon, being human means doing hard things!
Most thing which are worthwhile are also hard.
These types of environmentalists aren't interested in real achievable goals, they will reject all ideas for one reason or another unless it involves completely dismantling human civilization or some shi 😂
I was born in the 70s to vegetarian parents. There was a single health food coop in our city back then, and even tofu was hard to come by. Slowly over the years I’ve seen a massive increase in the amount of vegetarian and vegan ready-made and processed foods available at all types of grocery stores from Walmart to the PX/Commissary system on military bases. It is the demand from more and more plant based folks that has increased the supply of these things as food companies seek to cash in on the market. I never dreamed of a thing called a veggie burger growing up, and now there’s more options than I can count. Even brew pubs often carry veggie burgers and salads now, and they do it cause people want them. What a strange argument against going vegan!
Veganism is boring.
Also vegetables, fruits and non meat substances do not have B12 vitamin. Only meat has B12 vitamin. Did someone lie to me? I am mean I am not a expert but this is what many experts are saying. Also what nutrients does only meat has that vegetables, fruits and non-meat does not have?
@@taylorfusher2997The animals you eat were injected with b12 supplements. Skip the middleman. Also anyone over age 40, no matter what diet they eat, should take a b12 supplement. 10mcg daily. Meat raises heart disease risk because of the saturated and trans fats inherent in it and it also raises colorectal cancer and other cancers as well. Science is a wonderful thing.
@@taylorfusher2997 I eat way more diverse now that i'm vegan than in all my 44 years of non vegan leading up to it. Life most definitely not get more boring.
@@taylorfusher2997 B-12 comes from bacteria in soil, and is also found in surface water that hasn’t been sterilized. Farm animals that graze eat enough of the bacteria to synthesize B-12 and accumulate it in their flesh. If you pull a carrot out of the ground, brush it off and eat it dirty you can get B-12 too, but everything is sanitized before we eat it these days, so we need to supplement.
THANK YOU FOR RESPONDING TO THIS. When I originally watched his video I was infuriated. The guy is just another environmentalist who eats meat, he did a video on how regenerative animal ag could work.
I was super disappointed what a waste of an otherwise intelligent and factual video. What a waste.
@@IsmelinaCafuir I saw your comment about how you've watched OCC's videos for awhile and wondered about his vegan stance. I'm the same.
I've always enjoyed his videos, especially his ones on Solarpunk and eco-socialism. Although, I'm always disapointed when he doesn't mention veganism in this utopian future. 😒
say what you think is best for the world and do the shit youve always done. Double standards.
He is someone who is incapable of changing himself so has to justify his lack of action. Leftists who don't live by their beliefs are the worst...
As a leftist, my brain turns to goo when I hear other leftists spew anti-vegan nonsense. It's embarrassing, frankly. Great response, Mic! 👍✌️
Hello fellow leftist vegan! Since the maker of Our Changing Climate opposes the exploitation of humans by other humans, perhaps he’ll be convinced soon to go vegan and be opposed to the exploitation of animals by humans
Oh my god same! I feel so embarressed.
Black lives matters .
Hard same. I've been watching OCC's videos for a long while and wondered if he's also vegan.
Based on how he basically nailed the vegan bingo in the same video he's citing the many pros of veganism, he's not. 😂😂😂😂
But this wasn't anti-vegan. Maybe just a narrow definition of veganism, since it is so much more than just consumption of plant-based food instead of holistic political veganism. But that simplified version is the dominant one. Besides, the broader spectrum of problems are still there.
If all the planet turned plant-based, it would be amazing! But as a fellow leftist, we should agree that that still leaves the capitalism system of production in place. You have to add other political movement to that to really change the world.
Plus, neo-liberal culture and how we behave is way more complicated that just a "vote with your wallet" flowchart. Capitalism rearranges and adapts to our advances. "Internal contradictions" and all of that, the exploitation of our planet and all beings on it is still here. We should do even more.
Hi Mic. Another day, another video, another chance to educate.
Great Video as always.
The support for live stock from governments is outrageous.
Corruption should be stopped.
It really pisses me off that we have no say that our tax dollars go to fund all the meat and dairy check-off programs, subsidies, and other things I despise... like the military industrial complex that hemorrhages our money with zero accountability. Corruption is too mild a word.
To be fair most of what actually makes up the meat subsidy is the crop subsidy. It's just a reflection of the fact the producers situate the market such that we make meat cheaper by consumer more crops. Understanding it this way actually helps illustrate better the point the video this video is criticizing is making. Anything that makes crops cheaper makes meat cheaper. So taking away many forms of subsidies and insurance wouldn't actually directly help the situation.
Also vegetables, fruits and non meat substances do not have B12 vitamin. Only meat has B12 vitamin. Did someone lie to me? I am mean I am not a expert but this is what many experts are saying. Also what nutrients does only meat has that vegetables, fruits and non-meat does not have?
@@taylorfusher2997Farm raised animal life Stock does get their B12 supplemented, they don’t actually make it themselves. It is bacteria which is a byproduct from their digestion process deep in their guts. Most is just washed/taken away when the manure is cleared. The food they are eating, (mostly corn, soy and alfalfa grass does not contain any B12 thus it needs to be supplemented. You could just take that B12 supplement yourself and don’t need to relay on a middleman who is tortured and killed needlessly, besides of the environmental impact AG has on the planet. Yes meat has some antinutrients plants don’t contain: saturated fats, cholesterol, IGF1, antibiotics just to name a few and they don’t contain any fibre which is essential for a healthy gut flora, every whole plant food contains fibre processed oils don’t. You are welcome. I hope this helps you to shift to a healthy whole plant based diet, not only for your health but also for the health of our planet.
@@taylorfusher2997 The only thing that meat has that plants don't is saturated fat and cholesterol. We can make every protein ourselves from the amino acids provided by plants. Also b12 is made in the soil by bacteria, in past we were much less hygienic so more dirt was ingested. Same for the animals, they often get supplemented now too because they don't get to see dirt or grass anymore.
I was hoping you’d make this response video and you didn’t disappoint! Thank you! ❤
Glad you wanted a response because I didn't see any specific requests lol. It is important to think about what really changes animal ag production and he was right that it is more than just vegans but as you know I think he was too dismissive of vegans.
Always love these response vids! I was struck by him mentioning the emotional bits: veganism being "restrictive;" eating disorders; and cultural significances of meat incorporation into a diet. All of those are much more multi-layered and have very little to do with veganism at all. A way of eating is only "restrictive" if you are surrounded by those items you don't have access to. So, the question should then become: Why do I not have more access to vegetables? NOT Should I still be a vegan? A person did not develop an eating disorder because they became vegan. So, the question should become: What emotional supports should we be providing to those who have disordered eating habits? NOT Should people with disordered eating habits still be vegans? And the foods we eat within our families that give us the feel-goods are not significant because of the food themselves, but are actually significant because of the bonds and love between the people in the community. So, the question should become: How can we honour our families and our communities through all different types of modalities? NOT Should a person not be a vegan because that would bring shame and disrespect to our families and communities? Spending more time thinking about the questions we are asking is crucial to beginning to solve any of these environmental and societal issues.
Hello my fellow vegans
Hello to you too 💚©️®️™️❤️🔥💚
😊
Hey hi
Vegetarian baby , hi 🐟 & u can get alot more food on this diet , so u know! Vegetarian diet 🥦🥑 a fellow American, older ! 👩🦳
What's up 🤙
I think your rebuttal was wonderful. I've no notes! I too love Earthling Ed. He is so kind and convincing.
Vegan Jesus, LOL. Loved that.
I wrote this comment under Our changing Climate's video:
I want to explain something about the "consumer-driven action is ineffective" argument in regards to animal foods. Generally I agree with this statement. As consumers, we can "vote with our dollar" by buying more ethical products and avoiding less ethical ones, but this generally doesn't exert much change on the system, because these things need to be regulated at the production end, which is where all the power is.
But food is a commodity unlike other consumables. Food is constantly in demand. Everyone needs to eat, several times per day. It's not like buying clothes, or a car, or a phone, where purchases are more infrequent and the industry has to use advertising to create demand and entice people to buy their product. Food (in general, not talking about any specific food) needs no marketing. Demand is constant.
Food is a zero sum game. If you don't eat one type of food, you will eat another. If you don't eat animal based foods, you will by necessity eat plant based foods. This means that if a company doesn't provide you with plant based foods, you will go to their competitor. They will necessarily lose that share in the market, and their competitor will be advantaged. I drink soy milk instead of dairy milk. I will never buy dairy milk. I only ever buy plant-based milk. The dairy industry has lost my custom, and the soy milk industry has gained it. (Notice that this effectively doubles your vote - you're both supporting plant industries and penalising animal industries.)
Food is lucrative business. More people going vegan represents substantial loss to the animal agriculture industry. This loss cannot be recouped by encouraging increased consumption of the animal based product. Most people are already drinking their ideal quantity of milk. They're already buying the amount that they want to drink. You can't get people to, say, double their milk purchases, because it will just go off. It's not like buying a pair of jeans, where you can buy more and just stuff them in your closet. The only thing a company can do to capture those lost profits is to provide a plant based product.
Hence, going vegan is more powerful than most people realise.
I’m so excited to watch this because I watched OCC’s video when it came out. Now I get to watch you talk about it!
Did you help out in the comment section?
I "wasted" a solid hour on that video's comments and often do on that channel, because it seems to miss so much.
So many points are so easily refuted with a just a little research.
Anyway, he needs to hear more often how wrong he is about veganism in the first place.
It's not about saving the climate (or ourselves) to begin with. It's about the animals we abuse and exploit.
You'd think someone who spent so much time criticizing capitalism would better understand the exploitation component.
I did become vegan because of the environment, but I STAY vegan because of the animals.
People who eat plant based solely for the ecological impact aren't really considering the ethics of what happens to the animals.... they are just worried about their own survival
@@MattAngiono while disproving misconceptions is to be applauded, his perspective of veganism (or rather plant-based lifestyle) was for its enviromental benefits. While the primary concern of veganism is animal welfare, that is not an aspect his channel focuses on.
That audience might very well not be into the ethics, but just care about how large the impact would be on the environment and mitigating climate change.
@@Tinky1rs as you noted, veganism is an ethical stance about animals and how we treat them.
I understand he's focusing on how it impacts the environment (or most notably how that affects US), but what he describes then is plant based diets.
I think there's enough people who care about the environment, not because they are selfish and only concerned with their future, but also about the many creatures that inhabit it.
These are EXACTLY the kind of people that should be aware of veganism and the ethics behind it.
If you love animals, as these people usually do, they should be exposed to the hypocrisy in their actions.
That's often the only thing that gets people to change this lifestyle.
If you believe veganism is only about the environment, which is a daunting and almost impossible task to fix, it's very easy to compromise and only do some plant based eating, and still think highly of your actions.
With a vegan position, you don't cheat hardly at all, because that would be equivalent to saying rape can be okay if it's only once in awhile....
♥️ I agree with your assessment of this video. Thank you for all that you do to bring awareness to these issues.
I have Lot of left leaning friends who are very much of the same mindset as this guy. It gives a whole new meaning to sacred cow. Don’t get in the way of their beef, or they will go off on you. Seriously, I see them as drug addicts , and you are coming down on their supply! It can get ugly fast.
Yes! Sacred cow is a very apt term. Though not very vegan a term. 😅
The bit dog yelps the loudest. These are people that have their self worth and identity tied up in "doing the right thing for society", and "helping the oppressed", and it's a cognitive dissonance internal conflict bomb going off in them because they're guilty and they're getting mad at the implicit accusation as they experience it, and so lash out. They haven't managed to master themselves or contemplate things, and so aren't able to take criticism or self reflect in the moment. Granted, that's hard for most people when you challenge their core beliefs, and they end up reflexively trying to defend their behavior instead.
I am baffled by how “lefties” are against suppression and discrimination of minorities, but at the same are perfectly OK with eating enslaved sentient beings. 🤷🏻♂️
Thank yo so much for this Mic, I generally love “our changing climate” and they do phenomenal research for their videos. But veganism always seems to be a strange blindspot so I was beyond thrilled to see you replying to this. As a Marxist myself I see veganism as inherently interwoven to our collective liberation. Appreciate your stuff as always 🙏🏻
This is one problem with modern "news" and information. People think they need to give "both sides" of an argument to seem impartial. But there are things we're doing a disservice by doing that with. Some things have the predominance of information on their side and giving the "other view point" time just muddies the waters and confuses people
Really awesome responses, Mike! Thank you!
Haven't watched the whole video but at 4;00 I'm already totally out. The whole point of capitalism is built upon the demand of the consumer. To say consumers don't drive change in capitalism is foolish.
It's one of my biggest gripes with fellow socialists; the idea that there's no ethical consumption under capitalism, so just focus on ending capitalism. I much prefer the vegan idea of minimizing problematic consumption as much as possible. If you aren't doing as much as you're able to challenge exploitative labor practices and stuff like that, then you're propping up the system more than you need to and you are acting in a way that signals you don't think a better world is possible. The only thing that turns me off a certain degree is that under capitalism ethics become a commodity, so you get the impression that in a lot of cases you are being charged a premium not because the cost of production is any different, in some cases it's less, but because you are buying something that is more ethical making it seem unattainable for average people.
I just throw this in here: "Capitalism" is derived from capital, which evolved from capitale, a late Latin word based on caput, meaning "head"-which is also the origin of "chattel" and "cattle" in the sense of movable property (only much later to refer only to livestock).
If anyone wants to argue that Capitalism and livestock can be separate things... I am done. We ourselves are livestock and only by understanding how we got in this ever hotter mess we could (in theory) change things around. Veganism is by definition the anti-thesis of capitalism. If you think you can be a capitalist vegan you are not vegan but a plant based capitalist.
Yup, it’s an excuse constantly made to absolve themselves of blame and make sure they don’t need to make any inconvenient changes
I understand both points:
1) Yes, as an individual you are providing a demand, so long as you are consuming a product they will continue providing
2) Yes, as a corporation you will continue to produce a product so long as it is subsidized (aka paid by taxes) and governments allow you to
In both cases we all have some power over the outcome but the collective power of individuals and government are needed in order to bring this system to a full stop.
If the government continues to fund these products even if the meat rots on the shelf they are still making a profit. Animals will continue to be slaughtered until we all demand that it comes to halt. We can't just blame it on the consumer because the amount of misinformation through propaganda is making it difficult for people to see the real issue.
Meat rotting in stores across the nation would not go on for long. Believing that something will continue to be produced when no one is buying it, feels like Marxist ideological entrenchment.
Thank you for making the point clear! You need both approaches. Systematic change brings individual change and vice versa. There is no easy or simple fixes, going vegan is great if you can do that. It won't save us on it's own though as not everyone will choose veganism on their own accord (which is where systematic change comes into play). If it isn't also cheap, convenient, socially acceptable (some religious people mainly far right evangelicals think vegans are some of the worst people imaginable). Sometimes not everything comes down to a logical argument. Some people cannot be swayed into your way of thinking through facts or logical alone.
As usual, top-down + bottom-up is the way to go. Except OCC is arguing against bottom-up change making for some reason. He's making videos for people at the bottom to watch... Not sure if he knows who his audience is.
Collective action won't happen immediately though, as you might imply. There is a critical mass to it as change accelerates towards an animal-free food system, and Mic is right about vegans leading that charge.
So Dole and Del-Monte they get tax payer subsidies every year. So when you buy your pineapples, and other plants to fill your belly. Just remember that the owners are making millions from tax payer subsidies. They are also feeding money to government officials so they can get away with having illegal immigrants to slave away in their fields
Ive seen a bunch of large anti-capitalist content creators make statements where they say that vegans are morally, environmentally and economically correct. But instead of telling their massive audiences to consider changing their diet, they go on to say that even though vegans are right in every way, individual changes and action is pointless.
I totally agree that change only happens with collective action and then legislation, but if videos like these and large anti-capitalist content creators keep saying its pointless to change as an individual and the vegans are "cringe", how the fu*k do we get people on board with collective action and anti-trust legislation against large meat producers? I've felt very hopeless lately about this fight due to the fact that even anti-capitalists won't say what's the truth about veganism.
Yeah I feel the same way, at least I'm not the only one that gets the same vibe from OCC's videos
completely agree.
i always ask them what system they advocate for, since if it were democratic, we'd all still be eating meat.
A criticism is not saying it’s useless you catastrohpizing peanut.
@@ybokors8524i completely disagree that if it were completely democratic we would still be eating meat. This entirely misses the influence of marketing and advertising. If anyone is interested in the left’s current ideas about the system Paul Cockshott’s “towards a new socialism” and Midwestern Marxist (a TH-cam channel so search for it there) have just realised a new book called “the purity fetish” both of which i would highly recommend if youre interested :)
There are lots of vegans in the left but it can be hard to find them like in any general population really :) fight on
Appreciate the response 👍🏻
Great vid 😊
Fighting the climate crisis requires a top down and ground up approach. We need to do both. Adopting a plant based diet is one of the most effective things an individual can do; one can also limit or curtail travel via private cars and/or planes, and limit or stop shopping for new manufactured goods. And, it’s also important to be involved in politics; to vote, call our representatives, sign petitions, write directly to companies, and raise awareness. We can do both. The necessity of the latter does not detract from the effectiveness of the former. It just means there are many ways to fight the climate crisis. I actually think going vegan is one of the easiest things a person can do.
This insinuation that consumer choice is a myth is one of the most dangerous notions out there. Consumer choice is the single, solitary reason any of these industries exist. Gradually increasing conscientiousness is our greatest weapon against them, and it's the consumers who must adopt that conscientiousness. It is so easy for a consumer to make a better choice. The trick is simply to make them aware of this.
The person behind Our Changing Climate is a probably a socialist…as a socialist myself, I understand a potential for change is through a mass strike wave…in the case of animal agriculture, imagine the workers of that industry walking off the job around the world refusing to exploit animals anymore and demanding to make plant based foods and clothes instead…the industry would be in well deserved chaos
That said, many socialists seem to downplay the importance of boycotts…if the public boycotts animal exploitation, those industries profiting off animals will still fall…i welcome both strikes and boycotts
Exactly. It’s nor pastoralists who are burning down the Amazon rainforest, it’s animal agriculture corporations who are only doing it for profit. Reduced demand causes lower prices which results in not cutting down more rainforest. Because more supply would lower prices even more, to where additional animal agriculture would be unprofitable.
Awareness isn't the only issue. If the price of meat remains low people will keep eating it. But it directly snubs all of the plants that could have been sold on the market making virtually all food cheaper. It's directly a tragedy of the commons issue and can only be solved through mass action or government regulation. Sure doing that through consumption is possible but it seems like the hard way.
@@Furiends
One type of mass action would be advocating for a permanent boycott of meat, dairy, eggs, and items made out of leather, fur, and feathers …that’s what vegans around the world are pushing for (among other things like ending testing on animals)
@@vietnamd0820 Or ya know.. a ban along with subsidizing alternatives like faux fur. boycotting kind of makes no sense. It does make sense for there to be enough people interested in plant based products for those to be developed and marketed. But a boycott could just as well make meat cheaper for meat eaters and raise meat consumption.
That guy made all those positive comments about veganism, then his brain shut off
This video, for all its many flaws, does do a good job of summarizing the basic positions of each side, maybe better than any video I've ever seen. They completely filled out the bingo card of non-vegan excuses, especially leftist non-vegans
However, if it needed to be said, most of those excuses are highly dumb, and they are presented without enough pushback whatsoever. Its purpose is just making complacent people feel okay continuing to be complacent (and, ultimately, ensuring the target audience isn't offended and feels validated, which is the primary motivation for a lot of TH-camrs)
Lol rip vegans
I agree with you but not with that particular video. The "just don't eat beef" line is about the worst one.
Good points, especially at the end there. Making sure at least a majority of the viewers don’t feel “attacked” even though come on let’s face it, we all need to be called out about SOMETHING or another. We may as well use constructive criticism to our benefit & develop ourselves.
@@FuriendsI mean, when you’re aware that all meat is now classified as carcinogens then… it’s kind of a no-brainer especially when it hurts people, animals & the environment all at the same time. I’m a woman military veteran building muscle on a vegan diet… on a tight budget. It’s so freaking doable it’s ridiculous.
@@cryco472 Sorry my point didn't have enough context. There's a lot of vegan downplaying on the Internet that just consists of "Don't panic. You can still eat meat just don't eat beef."
I think issues such as fast fashion and fossil fuels should not be compared to veganism as they are infinitely more complex and intertwined with issues such as poverty or accessibility, while *in comparison to ditching those* implementing veganism (even though can still be complicated for certain individuals with less accessibility) is much simpler, cheaper and straight forward, which why it is pushed as "the solution"
I realized that individual action often inspires collective action and that’s why I encourage people to live their values. If you do eat meat then you should still advocate for better farms and regulation.
Your headphones match your hair color so closely it looked like you were wearing a 1700’s Revolutionary era wig in the thumbnail photo. Also, great video as usual!
Maybe I'll wear one next time and see if anyone notices. I'm sure people will say I need a wig because I'm bad as a result of my diet LOL
28 year old woman here. No meat for 6 years, no dairy for about 4, no backyard eggs and honey for 3.
After adopting vegan diet my PCOS healed completely, finally got pain free healthy periods (once my cramps were so strong I almost passed out).
Right now pregnant. At my first doctor visit, he advised me to take iron supplement before I even told him for my diet, because so many of pregnant women are low - last blood test I took for iron and feritin at 18 weeks pregnant showed ideal levels without any supplementation.
Right now at 23 weeks, checking my blood pressure daily - ideal levels.
Next week going to take glucose tolerance test, hoping for the best.
Had no morning sickness and a few days of sore feet, but it somehow passed.
I work 8-9 hours shifts at a caffe so I'm on my feet practically all day and no swelling at all so far.
I absolutely believe I have easy, healthy, happy and active pregnancy beacuse of my diet!!!
But the societal pressure is so real.
I've wanted to have a baby but always had anxiety if vegan diet was safe.
Since I found out I'm pregnant been researching about wholefood plant based diet almost every day.
I think it's subconsciously because our family will have such a hard time accepting and adjusting to the fact that the kid will be vegan, since after all this time they still didn't accept me as a vegan.
They put so much meaning in their food, family get togethers and celebrations. They still don't understand why I won't even try their traditional nutroll they've worked on for a whole day, or Christmas cookies they give us ("but it's just a tiny bit of milk/ but there's just one egg, and it's from our back yard" 😪😴).
They will be excellent! grand parents and great-grand parents BUT it's making me anxious how will they push the food when we won't be present. Such a shame....
Now more than ever I'm convinced it's the healthiest option for a child, not only morally comfortable for me.
Thank you so much for your work, it gave me a lot of support and confidence. You are a comprehensive source of information and an inspiration for further research. I truly appreciate your chanel.
One of the fundamental flaws Mic has is the assumption that supply and demand is how market economies work. It’s not because control over production is not on the consumer end, but on the possibilities laid out by the capitalist class interest. And these interests are always going to favor, conservation and acceleration of current conditions and habits. The best outcome under markets is a large diversity of options but a preservation of animal agriculture.
Capitalism treats people as disposable (reserve Army of labor, large homeless population, and medical access disparity) Without humans achieving a direction of equity of mutual respect and care animal liberation will not be accessible. The best outcome is a cessation of violence that preserves violence itself.
There for the dismantling capitalism and establishing a new comic foundation is necessary for animal liberation.
So they will continue to produce something, even if no one buys it?
@@OmegaPointZen ideas and the material world all influence each other. However, material is real and ideas are not. So in this dialectical relationship matter comes first. Veganism like all ethical positions, come out of ideals. All ideals emerge in response to the material reality around them. Therefore, it is impossible to make drastic material changes with ideals alone.
A vegan world is impossible as long as exploitive modes of production exist. Because without the removal of that essential barrier, the material and by extent, cultural structures of humanity, cannot progress to this moral position of animal liberation.
And all this is not saying there shouldn’t be ethical, ideal and moral struggle in the subject. It’s just we have to properly identify actual barriers to progress in order to address them.
We cannot present present a moral question in a position of commanding people to bow to it. These positions and angles have to be empowered and enabled.
We cannot bend to the world to our position by wishing there has to be organization and study and planning.
The answer is not veganism alone. That is something that needs to be advanced, and grown as a these barriers are addressed and replaced with different structures establish through political and scientific struggle. That is what the video Mic is reacting to is saying.
I did mention that now more than even there are forces to hold animal agriculture in place even as demand lowers. I only put it in the chart and didn't say it but we have $50 billion in subsidies to animal ag which bypass consumer demand. That is why I was advocating for people to vote in anti-animal ag politicians as they defund from the consumer side which is $80 billion in retail meat sales alone. I do agree that capitalism is harmful to the bottom workers and one of the notes I didn't add because the video was getting too long was that a 16-year old recently died in a slaughterhouse in Mississippi right as child labor laws are being rolled back in states like Iowa where I am. Another note I had was that even under another form of government like democratic socialism, communism, etc., if the people desire high levels of meat it is possible that animal ag could be just as large of a system as it is now. Theoretically it could be larger, especially in some type of direct democracy voting system where people vote for their meat allotment. Systems of government are still run by people (unless they are AI based lol) and the ratio of meat eater to vegan is the largest factor in how large the animal ag system is in my belief at least. Thanks.
Ok then, explain the prohibition of lead in paint, lead on combustion engines. Under your theory those industries should keep going forever in larger and larger scale, because capitalist class or something, but both are prohibited in the western countries because people voted for politicians that agreed on prohibiting them, you don't have to dismantle the whole capitalist system to make good changes, I would argue, it's better to make the good changes first before dismantling it so people can more easily adapt
@@miraelgato392 idealisms versus pragmatism are different things. Lead was banned out of pragmatic response to health and environmental damage. Meat production is something that is both economic and culturally deeply ingrained and tied to human identities. These are not comparable subjects.
When seatbelts were introduced many people refused to use them. It was only when not using them became illegal people used them in mass scale. I understand that video in the same way.. most people simply won’t become vegan no matter how strong the arguments are. We need more mechanisms to enforce change on people who are so ignorant which unfortunately is the majority of people right now
Real change does not come from the top up but from the bottom down.
This is like waiting for consumers to stop driving cars. You just can't realistically get big enough number to be useful. Plus the system fights you back at every turn. It's not like climate change has a deadline. Systematic issues need systematic solutions. (I'm also vegan btw)
I personally dislike the argument that veganism causes eating disorders, because becoming vegan (WFPB specifically) saved me from literal decades of eating disorders. Starving myself followed by bingeing and purging for 26 years of my life. I now eat large, satisfying l, healthy meals and have reached and maintain a healthy weight eating this way. I no longer need to starve myself which leads to bingeing. I don’t eat addictive foods anymore which also lead to bingeing. I’m not saying it’s impossible to have an eating disorder as a vegan, but for me it was the opposite.
I've almost watched the whole video now, but i just noticed i opened it when it still had "no views", which is the second time. i'm such a loyal viewer 😂
THAT'S A WIN!
@@MictheVegan for me or for you? I hope it's a win-win situation
So as a system thinker (and vegan) myself I agree with the approach that there should be more tactics for people to aim for change.
However due to learned hopelessness and how the system is build, most people don't know how to change a system this complex (for most people) so therefore making a individual choice (going vegan) is just simpler then changing a system.
This is the classic "individual change vs system change".
Both can be right. Its just simpler to say to people to change their behaviour then it is to change a system from within.
That companies and politicians are screaming for individual change however WITHOUT actually making structural change (especially politicians) is downright absurd. They litteraly have the tools to make system change.
Normal people don't have those tools. The only tool we have is to vote people into office that will pass legislate against meat.
But the chances are bigger voting someone into office that is against meat if more people are vegan.
The more people are vegan the more people will be there to vote for a vegan politician.
Since eating meat is so culturally bound (the argument of Changing Climate itself) the likelyhood that a non vegan will fight for a non-mean industry is just a fairy tail.
We here in the Netherlands have a non-meat party called Party for the Animals.
Guess what; they are vegan.
I also would argue that due to the complexity of the system going vegan is way way more easy then to change a system from within. Most people just don't understand how the system works. We need more videos about that and that is the strength of Changing Climate. But everyone whi understands the system also understands its simply supply and demand that could push us over the threshold culture of what is 'normal' to eat.
You can't expect politicians and companies to change a cultural aspect (wich is eating meat) if not at least 25% of the people WANT that change. Hence the advocacy of veganism.
A vegan party cant excist if there arent vegans who are willing to support it. And you cant get there without at least 20% of the extremes who are pushing the overton window towards more cultural acceptence of eating plantbased.
There is no chance from the top (except from Dictators) without culture chance from within.
And like Ed says; companies can me a difference here too by making it cheaper. More accessable etc.
One of the baddest videos i have seen from Changing Climate. Bad arguments.
If you want to have have the argument we need to do more structural change - every vegan agrees. But you can make that argument without bashing veganism or make silly agruments that plantbased is likely to give you more eating disorders.
Thats just louzy.
Vegan and structural change go hand in hand.
Not one or the other. We need both. And both reinforce each other ❤
Beautifully said.
At least he acknowledges the horrors of the dairy industry. The egg industry grounds up baby chicks alive and the chickens are totally exploited and suffer in battery cages, in massive sheds with no room to move and an overwhelming stench of ammonia, with countless physical injuries, starvation and mental stress. And all that before the inevitable. Liking eggs is not worth their suffering. There are other options.
I think a lot of people got the impression that "our changing climate" wanted to talk about arguments against veganism just to downplay how easy it is to go vegan. I just don't think that is what he wanted to propose, because from a purely enviremental view, it's true that doing things that restrict yourself in some way (not driving by car/not traveling by airplane/going vegan...) can be intimidating. At the start of the video he stated that he will only be talking about the enviremental problems with animal agriculture, if he hadn't said that, then this point of his would be wrong.
The star wars jokes were on point. 😅
Actually ALL the jokes were so funny lmao😂
It definitely is the answer if the question is “How can I dramatically reduce my carbon footprint and at the same time help eliminate the extreme level of cruelty our species is inflicting on the other animals on this planet?”
Vegan for 24 years It's much easier to be Vegan now.
Au'dhd people do sometimes eat "comfort" foods aka safe foods for daysss so I understand why he threw that in there but our safe foods also change and therefore can be vegan
When I see a video title like this I just know what’s coming 😞 Thank you so much for addressing this!
As the lady said in Okja- “If it’s cheap, they’ll eat it!”
Haha thank you for the tim Robinson clip, also I get notifs every week from you!
The comparison to carbon footprint was weak. Even if all individuals reduced their carbon footprint significantly, yes you still have industries emitting huge amounts of carbon. But that doesn't translate to meat and dairy. Manufacturing equipment doesn't eat meat, trailer trucks don't run off cheese. Only individuals eat food, individual purchases drive what food is produced.
Great upload bro 💚🌱
Also I think people tend to overestimate how much meat they really eat on average and how important that meat in their dish really is. I would say for most people it's going to be easier to first be vegetarian, and later transition into veganism. Especially with all new meat alternatives (in UK there's a lot of them) it shouldn't be that difficult. It's really not that hard as some people on the internet might say.
It rly isn't that hard, but it's the fact that the vegan alternatives "taste weird," have a weird texture, or just "aren't the same." So to them the sacrifice isn't worth the pleasure
Also, I think the benefits to the hospital system (from people eating mostly plant-based, whole foods of course) would be great. The number of masks, gloves, needles, operations (gallbladder removals, cancer surgeries, heart surgeries), etc. would be significantly lower (still present). This is why proactive medicine/prevention is so valuable for the planet and for people. It is just way more sustainable to maintain a car, than to buy a whole new one (same goes for peoples' bodies). Reminds me of Denis Burkitt's correlation of large stools with small hospitals (traditionally diets) VS small stools with big hospitals (western junk diets, little fiber).
I disable subscription notifications at the app level and add everything in my subscription feed to the watch later playlist to watch whenever I get around to it. I only need to be notified about urgent things.
I ate chicken for three days and man did I stink! could smell it coming out in my skin was embarresed, got really depressed , I didn't go out for three days cause I stunk!
So the message of their video is ‘Animal agriculture is really damaging to the climate and environment, and being vegan is an important part of the solution BUT I don’t wanna.’
12:36 In Brazil there are a bunch of favelas based vegan movements that disprove this as an argument.
This take is used by carnists and carnistic big executives that resist change with excuses.
I love how people think their ancestors ate meat on a regular basis. There's no chance that's true.
It's an answer but not The answer. It's a tool along with many others we should be using.
It's nice that he at least is coming at it from a radical socialist perspective rather than an anti-science, anti-vegan one. But ye, hard to imagine how changes in demand wouldn't radically change supply.
The comparison in the middle of the video (carbon footprint shaming etc etc) is misguided. Because the meat industry is DIRECTLY linked to dietary choices. It's not a biking vs driving = CO²a CO²B. It's Meat eater + corporation = meat industry
Consumers still influence what is sold in stores. Dairy and meat will trend down with the demand of other products.
Your diagrams are amazing! So well thought through. Thanks for your content!!
The girlfriend of Niko Rittenau (Niko wrote many books about veganism, and also co-wrote a book with Ed Winters) started eating 2 eggs a day to recover from an unknown illness. Niko thinks she can not convert linoleic acid into arachadonic acid, and therefor she suffered from arachadonic acid deficiency. This is just his guess. Without testing his hypothesis, she started eating eggs a few months ago, and they will test it later, they said. I speak German, I could translate it if you want. Also, Niko Rittenau did not want to publish a book about nutrition for pregnant women that he co-wrote.
Wow that is a such a randomly specific hunch to have. It looks like he is a nutritionist so he should know to get tests.
@@MictheVegan That's the weird part, that they did not get the tests, but just started experimenting with eating 2 eggs a day for many weeks, and now (a year?) later he tells this to his audience and says "we are going to have her tested to see if the hypothesis is right."
I also find it interesting that when vegan food is shown it is always greens and salads and never mashed potatoes or pasta or banana bread or on and on. And then they pooh pooh beyond burgers as evil, acting as if they aren't eating any food that has additives, when the exact opposite is true.
These kinds of videos always massively bungle the messaging in the end, and it's always the ending takeaway that is going to stick with people. It doesn't matter how compelling the data presented before, two sentences can justify complacency and lack of action, and they always do that.
Fiftyplusbeauty just had a stroke on a high fat meat diet. She then has a Dr Ali explaining how high fat is better. I hope you do a video debunking her dangerous stuff 😳
I love your videos, you crack me up! 🤣
If the government is subsidizing anything, they should subsidize Brown Rice and Beans. And they should be free to the people.
Wow, Mic, very thorough and convincing rebuttal Powerful flowcharts! I'd like to see you and "Our Changing Climate" in a moderated debate. on a popular podcast. Take 'em down!
Great commentary! I think the biggest flaw with comparing adopting veganism with the personal carbon footprint campaign is that when consumer adopt veganism they directly impact the main demand within the meat industry, whereas when you try to lower your carbon footprint you have to change a large number of things and you'll still only affect a fraction of the demand of the fossil fuel. Every single industry relies on energy, and as a consumer you have proportionally very little direct power to change the energy sources of each industry and brand. Even then, demand for lower carbon footprint still has market influence and has shifted global energy demands and investments as consumers become more aware. Veganism has a much more direct (inverse) relationship to the production of meat and is therefore very effective. Good luck trying to counteract giant corporations without a significant consumer base advocating against it....
Great video! Please plan more trips 😊😊😊
How can we get together to put a stop to AG subsidies, 38 Billion of the US tax money is just insane, that’s over 100 dollars for every person living in the US per year.
I had an unbalanced vegan diet for some time - because I went through a stage of eating quite a bit of junk food.
However, once I realised what I'd done and paid a bit more attention, eliminating the sweets and crisps, (at the same time my local supermarket really expanding its 'own brand' vegan range), I've been fine ever since.
And no, it's not more 'complicated' to have a vegan diet... That is unless, of course, you buy all your meals from a spotty kid handing you a bag from a drive-thru window.
Great stuff as always, Mic. You are such a refreshing voice of rational thought, analysis and also reasonableness. Fun to see you having some playful, joking fun with your critiques too. Nice for variety. (As I'm sure you know.) Keep up all your great work. The world needs advocates like you, and coming at these big issues from all possible angles. ( e.g., th-cam.com/video/fu5pIZEBEhw/w-d-xo.html )
Mic, you remain one of the most clear spoken and insightful vegans online. Thanks for all you do!
Great stuff as always. Been looking into Bovine Leukemia Virus (BLV) and cancers and would really appreciate your take sometime.
Having to work in kitchen at a cafe which sells cage egss, and mostly burgers, bacon, fries and chicken.... and so much plastic.... and i find myself eating junk, bread and meat way more than i was .... and i feel crap. Need to get a new job but i live up a mountin and theres limited options up here!
Response to 4:34 - yes they may be responding to how many people are buying the chickens but untimely they are the ones that choose, if they make too many chickens and still need to sell more to make a profit larger than last year (on average a natural evolution of Capitalism otherwise the company eventually goes out of business) they will use different marketing techniques to sell the product like making the leftovers into nuggets, frozen meals etc. that can be stored and sold at a later date.
Yes many consumers can create market change but the consumers are heavily influenced by marketing and ideology of the people in power when they don’t have proper education to think critically about what they are consuming (ideology and food). We live in a time of misinformation and very poor education.
The horse producers didn’t decide to go out of business no but the car business most likely decided to go into business, this is not to say that this is the solution for veganism imo, we shouldn’t be going ham with marketing as the sole solution, yes maybe it would help education of masses to market a vegan diet in an appealing way but this doesn’t change the root of the issue which is an exploitative system.
If you take away subsidies less people will buy meat (or less of it). As it'll be much more expensive. I think systematic change would be overall more effective then individual change. Even if consumers do practice veganism the meat industry will just get bigger, and subsidies will rise to keep the gravy train going.
We ALL agree, that Ed is vegan Jesus, dw! 😂
I am subscribed to OCC and seen a bunch of his videos, but I usually get the feeling that he downplays the amount of change that individuals can inflict through our day to day choices. Bit demoralising to see and as a vegan myself it makes me feel somewhat hopeless, so in the case of non vegans it probably only perpetuates inaction and reinforces a defeatist mindset
Its not about our diet , it's about our walk ! 🦶 our rights & wrongs , 💝
Thanks to your channel I’ve switched to plant based /mediteran
It's funny people are always against factory farming, but then you ask them how they're only eating 95% plant based, or just fishing for fish... and they just end up telling you they're not changing their ways at all. They just say factory farming is bad while not actually changing what they do. So it's basically lip service. They know people can't really see where they're getting meat from, par fast food chains, and so they pretend they go to this ethical farm in the middle of no where or buy from some ethical butcher, but in reality they still buy factory farmed meat. They just know that they can say they're against factory farming and still eat meat from the magical ethical small farms that don't really exist that much, and so not look like a hypocrite or liar. In reality they're doing nothing to change, it's just lip service.
The channel has lots of videos pointing out (rightly, in my opinion) that the environmental crisis we're in is not caused by us as individuals but by capitalism. So it makes sense in that context
I'm not sure I agree that I feel "pressured by the vegan community to be restrictive when consuming ANY meat", it's more that now when I am confined to an environment where there are limited options (holidays in places w limited food options)-thinking of eating animal products makes me feel a bit grossed out.😅
Well reacted
This was popping up a lot, I felt it was some hind of bs and was waiting for some kind of reaction from people like Mike before supporting unknown channels with my views
Im with OurChangingClimate about individual behavior. There is a propaganda of blaming the consumer that certainly does not work and doesn't help. It takes the focus away of the real problem which is our system. If we sit and wait people break free out of nowhere because of their choices in such an exclusivist system. To think us who had great education never saw veganism in schools and to think most people dont even have access to school... individuals will never make the change we need, only the collective system can shift it.
The point is, this is stil not a reason to NOT go vegan
the collective system is made of individuals just as the ocean is made of drops of water, I see your point nevertheless
Just because it's the 'system', doesn't mean YOU have to be a part of the problem. Right now, both sides(companies and individuals) are saying the other needs to take the first step. Seeing companies run off supply and demand how can they be the first to shift if there is no demand for it? Once WE make the demand for it, companies will follow suit, because they WANT to make money.
@@stevencats7137 Did the video say not to go vegan though? I thought they said that it's still one of the best choices you can do individually.
@@ddpwe5269 No one is arguing to be part of the problem. The reality is we need systematic change on top of individual change. The video is just pointing out that veganism on it's own isn't the solution because you won't get everyone on board that way (and likely not a majority either).
I have been waiting for this video lol. Really good video as always
The extreme right prime minister of Italy, has banned the selling and advertising of cell based meat or other synthetically produced foods .
Ref: BBC article "Italy moves to ban lab-grown meat to protect food heritage"
Mic, he really does have a lot of valid points - the political and Big Business interests in animal farming in the States are massively controlling. Including pushing animal products into the retail and processed products streams that fresh vegetables are being squeezed out of the stores that all too many people have access to. (The whole thing is to ignore the ridiculous wording. ‘Imperialist core’. Seriously?!)
Yeah, Charlie, the creator of OCC, really downplayed the importance of economics in his video, as you rightly pointed out Mike: supply and demand.
All of these corporations are making predictions about profit and futures based on assumptions about their customer base: that the customer base won't shrink, only grow.
This entirely excuses the agency supply has in changing this relationship, and reinforces the idea that humans are enslaved to corporations, no matter if they're from the "imperial core" or periphery.
I think you rightly called out this lapse in logic tho, so great video!
This was extremely good video, if vegans do not understand that veganism must be inherently anti capitalist it does nothing.
Currently more and more vegans tend to believe in this "consumer choice" myth.
@@tamhiker1 Its is, as veganism is anti exploitation. And capitalism is for exploitation. Capitalism uses people to generate profits to the owners. Just like it uses animals to generate profits to the owners.
All vegan enterprises are doing, is creating a another consumer lifestyle that you can purchase.
Well in his defence of the market mechanism. That 1 or 2% of meat we don't eat locally, the industry will likely just export, cause meat is a world market
Mic I’ve been following your channel before subscribing, you don’t hide your position however, your videos are fact based & balanced. I’ve been WFPB since March I still consume dairy and eggs but, I’m weening myself away. On days that I stick to plants exclusively I end up eating a lot of nuts and nut butters to get needed calories, I’d like to cut down the fats but can’t seem to eat enough calories, any suggestions? Thanks
Great to hear! Don't forget about grains and legumes, loads of calories and much less fat.
Things like lentils and your choice of legumes have been the biggest help to meet my caloric needs. Also oats and plenty of other grains.
Dried fruit is a good source of low fat calories. I recommend dates and apricots.
Check into dr. John mcDougall's way of eating, it's mostly starches with vegetables and fruit.
grains, legumes, nuts, seeds, dried fruit. then maybe add in other things like avocado, hummus nut butter or olive oil. start looking at vegan body builders and what they eat for ideas about getting enough calories. simnet nutrition on TH-cam does lots of recipes and Q and A videos
I lived in a developing country for a few years. My parent's orign country. They aren't eating nearly as much meat as you think they are. And extremely rural places would welcome the convenience of a full stomach over "tradition". Stop speaking for these people. Do you wanna know what's considered a delicacy or comfort food where i lived? Fried bean cake, spicy fried tofu, sweet bread, fried yams and potatoes and chilli soup. No meat. Pounded yam is what even wealthy people eat for comfort. Meat is a status food and local people don't even like that much meat or fish in theirs. Most developing countries have smart phones. They're more worldly and advanced than you think. Stop acting like vegans are trying to confiscate their spears or something.