@@Cheesusful That’s the most depressing thing. For a show that got famous for pushing lines you don’t cross, they were clearly terrified to make Tyrion a villain for being afraid of losing the audience and blurring the lines of morality in their “good” characters, leading to the collapse of Tyrion as a character- with that indecision being behind many of the shows later problems.
It’s a crime they didn’t have him in the show and replaced him with Dario. Strong Bella’s fighting that dude on the horse then shitting on him in front of the whole city, incredible. Then eating ALL of the poisoned honey locusts meant for Danerys, puking and crapping his brains out on his death bed, but SURVIVING. He’s the GOAT eunuch.
Wouldn't be surprised If a person as mediocre as Tywin would do It. Dude cant win battles against a 16 yo hormonal kid, so what he does? Essentially political and cultural suicide in his part by whacking people in the kids wedding, all under guest right
I know right? But Tywin pride is his downfall. So him making a secret tunnel where the window had Lannister colors? Totally something he would do despite hiding it from others.
What I think pissed Tywin off so much about Tyrion was that he was the son he wanted. He had a brain, an ability for finances and he had the head on his shoulders to rule...if Tyrion had been born with Jaime's body he would have had the perfect son
Also Tyrion is who he is today in response to the people treating him as less (because he's a dwarf). If he looked like Jaime who knows what kind of upbringing he'd have, he could just be another Jaime
@@horsem.d.7979 its a horrible combination of things: his body, Joanna's death, and the belief he is Aerys' son. If one or two of those things were removed, I think Tywin could deal with it. And honestly I think they are in ascending order of problems. Joanna being gone is probably worse than Tyrion being a dwarf.
That interview(I think on set) where he's sorta laughing off Tyrions dumb decision at the battle of winterfell. He says: "So they have to hide from the dead people, so they go into the crypts with all of the dead people in them. I guess Tyrion's smart, but he's not that smart." It's terrible he had that much awareness of how downhill his character went
Notice how the entire world fell apart not long after season 8? Yeah, the gods definitely cursed us. I think the only way to end this curse is to sacrifice the two writers d&d. It's worth a shot at least.
No he didn’t get a full monopoly on all dwarf roles that’s why, he had a role to to another dwarf so he got depressed he didn’t have 100% control over that market of actors.
tywin being full of bullshit in regards to his image and dying literally shiting is beautifully poetic, another layer from this great tyrion x tywin arc i hadnt realize before
@@aesir1ases64 Don't forget Shae mistook Tyrion as Tywin, and called him my lion. If you were Tyrion, you will be deeply disgusted by this merciless but hypocrite father.
Tyrion slowly corrupting Daenerys and enabling her more violent aspects is an excellent slow build up to her wanting to reduce King's Landing into a pool of dragonfire
I feel so bad for Peter Dinklage. As far as I can tell, he's a smart guy, it must have pained him to portray Tyrion's descent into stupidity after season 4.
Can you imagine what an incredible performance an actor of Peter Dinklage's calibre could have given as the *REAL* Tyrion Lannister post S4? It could have been even better than his first 4 seasons put together! From everything I've seen of him, he's a remarkable actor, and the last 4 seasons completely cheated him.
A few interviews I've seen parts of, you can see he hides his disappointment/frustration etc. poorly. The same as a few of the other actors also I guess. For such a good actor, I'm sure that they were not a mistake or oversight on his part.
@@JanjayTrollface I've got a feeling that he, and more than a few other GOT actors (Emellia Clarke anyone?) are just biding time until their non-disclosure agreements have run out so they can give the real scoop. I'm expecting at least a couple tell-all books every bit as heart wrenching and gruesome as anything GRRM has ever written to show up in a few years!
Theres actually a scene in the show in this context I really like. Tyrion asks Varys what he *really* wants. Varys makes Tyrion tell him his motivation and then shift the conversation to avoid the original answer. He says Tyrion is smart and a good player and Tyrion agrees, not realising he was just played
I would say Varys is a MUCH better player than Littlefinger and Tyrion. But they all have wins and losses to eachother (Like when Tyrion outsmarted Petyr and learned a bit about his money schemes). But Tyrion just didn't have as big as a network as they did as well as that he let himself be distracted.
Honestly I'd really love a "The Real Stannis Baratheon" video, because there's still a lot of people who only watched the show and didn't read the books so they're missing out the great character that is Stannis
For all the bullshit writing in the show, Stephen Dillane did a great job portraying a character he admitted having a hard time understanding since the writing made no sense to him, a veteran and utterly professional actor, that Liam Cunningham had to help him construct his acting instead of, you know, the showrunners.
Every time I see someone use "boi" instead of "boy" i vomit in my mouth a little bit. God, how did my generation f*ck up and raise such a generation of morons?
There’s also the parallels of Jaime and Tyrion’s arcs. As the story progresses, Jaime becomes more heroic, while Tyrion becomes more villainous. Post-ASOS Tyrion is indeed villainous, but I still hope that Tyrion manages to redeem himself in some way before the end of the series.
@S. Oh, that's hard. I guess if I had to pick the U-turn option. I want Jamie redeemed but I would rather see Tyrion not end fully evil at the end. But hopefully not be handled the same way it was in the show.
Jaime needs see his redemption through. Especially after burning Cersei’s letter and his upcoming confrontation with Lady Stoneheart. It would be super jarring and counter productive if he crawled back to Cersei. Plus he’s my favorite POV character. Tyrion is a very close second. Tyrion, either way could work. Full dark side, or dark side until the few moments, both outcomes work really well and are very fitting for him.
@S. I kind of liked the Jamie dying with his sister thing like the way they did it in the show was awful but him going back to try to save the only woman he ever loved despite how terrible and destructive their relationship was and dying trying to protect the queen is actually a pretty good ending. He goes back in for filled his Val like a true knife protecting his queen the woman he loves despite it all it’s not a happy ending but it’s bittersweet in a way I kind of like
The irony is Tywin constantly publicly humiliating Tyrion contributes to people laughing at him. If Tywin had supported him, shown him proudly and given him power, set his wrath on people that belittled Tyrion, people probably wouldnt have dared laugh
Basically, Tyrion's line at the trial "I wish I had enough poison for the whole lot of you" was squandered. At this point he had anger and a desire to destroy those who looked down on him for being a dwarf. These feelings should have propelled him to Dani so that he can join her and use her desire for the throne to achieve his own revenge. Instead we get a drunken dwarf who fails upward every scene.
With the way tyrion was seen by most people, he only had 2 possibilities either be a drunken dwarf, or could possibly be written as one of the best tragic villains in tv history. yet they chose the worse one I liked Tyrion in the show but he had potential to be much better
I kept waiting for his redemption arc in this video, but halfway through it didn't come, and maybe it won't, he's written to a wall it seems. While I agree that the Tyrion in the show is likeable, he seems written too pristine too, like too "good" to be interesting.
I feel the show version would have been better if he was consumed by hate after he kills Tywin. And he only went to Dany to get his revenge on his family. Maybe if they wanted they could redeem him when he sees how his hatred got the people of King’s Landing killed and decides to redeem himself when he helps defeat the Night King. When Bean becomes king, He sends Tyrion to the Night’s Watch to help with the library or he could be sent to look for his wife without his tongue (an impossible task).
@@karu6111 He was starting to become less good in season 4 but then the shorunners just stopped caring in the later seasons. His speech at his trial and then killing Shae and Tywin, while justified, was pretty dark
In interviews GRRM has stated that there is no "real" versions of characters. There is simply tv Tyrion and book Tyrion, because Tyrion is not a real person. I do agree book Tyrion past book 3 is more interesting.
I actually never realized Tyrion was supposed to be seen as a villain, since while reading the books i could relate to a lot of his struggles and could understand why he became so full of hatred and malice. I'm don't condone his actions, but think about what YOU would do, being born in the time and place he was, with the body he has and with a family that despises you for something outside of your control. I don't know what i would do but i'd be REALLY overestimating myself if i said i could stay being a sane, kind man
I mean, that is what makes a hero and upstanding person. When you have every reason and possess power to reflect back the poor treatment you have received hundredfold, and instead break the cycle with kindness.
Me too! I do now realize that he's becoming more villainous but because I was reading his chapters from the beginning I had an attachment with his character and couldn’t see his action as evil but justifiable, it's not
I was in Afghanistan for a while. Learned very quickly what i was willing to do. I don't like Tyrion just because he goes into excess which is why I always felt closer to Tywin.
@@sinwithagrin4243 you mean closer to the father who ordered his guards to gangrape his son’s girlfriend and subsequently ordering him to rape her too. Cool.
@@penguenefendi8148 You don’t find it a bit ironic that Tyrion whines about how everyone belittles him for being a dwarf, but he can’t extend the same humanity/dignity he craves towards another dwarf? Like the thought hadn’t crossed his mind at all? Not interested is simply not interested, but not interested based on her Dwarfism, when he’s also a dwarf is a bit dense.
I would really like a Real Stannis, Real Jon Snow, Real Cersi, and Real Daenerys videos comparing how the show changes characters versus how they are portrayed in the books. You could probably do this with many other characters but the four I have mentioned seem the farthest away from their book counterparts.
I love Varys' manipulation of Tyrion even during their last meeting. Like, "No! Don't climb exactly 240 steps up that ladder! Don't turn right and choose the first door on your left, that is so terrible! Don't pick up the crossbow and kill your father (which will make my plans for fAegon much simpler)! This is folly, my Lord!" *Titters*
@@richardrichard688 Tyrion in earlier seasons: Near-genocidal speech about people of KL Tyrion in later seasons: Character development? Lol who cares I suddenly LOVE the smallfolk I'm a goody-goody don't mind me uwu 😊
A book-accurate Tyrion behind Daenerys, feeding all of her worst instincts with his own would have been so compelling. It could have been. It *SHOULD* have happened. But what we got instead...
“Jaime,” she said, tugging on his ear, “sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna’s breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there’s some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak... but Tyrion is Tywin’s son, not you. - A Feast for Crows, one of the many great quotes that didn't make it into seasons 5-8
@@sirfatty5068 honestly, the other Lannisters add so much to the family dynamics, so many "small characters" got left out who actually contribute vital pieces to the overall puzzle.
@@MrMineHeads. Yep, Genna Lannister. I believe it was at the siege of Riverrun, about the time when the show Jaime was searching Dorne for the bad pussy.
This confirms in my mind that D&D never actually understood any of the characters in the series. They just had a superficial liking towards certain characters (Tyrion, Renly, Starks), and preferred to either whitewash them to be better than they were (Renly supposedly caring for the realm, Catelyn supposedly feeling guilt over Jon), or paint opposing characters far worse in comparison (Stannis being a murderous horndog, Edmure being an incompetent gloryhound). They took what should have been gripping psychological dramas of inner conflict, and dumbed them down into good/evil dichotomies, with characters flipping between them like an on/off switch.
Or maybe...just maybe they understood them but you disagree with their views of the characters? There is more than one way to interpret a fictional character.
@@Regenmacher175 There's a difference between understanding a character differently, and outright changing the character's actions to avoid those parts about them you don't want to depict. The former can happen in areas of ambiguity, where it's not clear why the character did what they did. But in the absence of that, if you are creating new motivations out of whole cloth, or in contradiction to others plainly stated in the source material, then you are no longer adapting the character from the books, but creating a new character with inspiration from the books. Considering what happened with many of these characters' concluding arcs in the show, it's clear they either never understood the source material, or weren't skilled enough to create character arcs to replace what they changed. Ye shall judge them by their fruits.
@@MasteringJohn I think it's more complex than "understanding" vs "not understanding". The show made choices which were justified by its format yet had HUGE impact on character development. In the case of Tyrion, they "removed" Taisha, only mentioning her as a prostitute, and kinda replaced her by Shae (emotionally). For the show, it made sense because bringing a character who was only mentioned in the 1st season, up to the end of the 4th, would not have worked well - make more sense to give importance to the character the audience actually SAW with tyrion. You can contest this choice still, but it's quite a logical one. Right or wrong, this choice completely changed the relationship between Tyrion and his brother, as well as his perception of the world. Show tyrion and book tyrion HAD to take different path in order to keep coherent story telling. To be honest, I completely buy both versions of Tyrion... up to a certain point in the show, where he seemed to have lost his main trait: his intelligence è_é but the whole rant about the "real" Tyrion sounds absurd to me.
Books: “Edmure is so upset at the passing of his father that he drank his sorrows away, only to have a huge hangover at the wake. His aim was a bit off.” D&D: “haha, Edmure is dumb.”
@@KaaptnIglo I don't really think format is relevant to characterization. Aerys, Rhaegar and Lyanna are never seen, yet their shadow looms large over the setting through the characters that were affected by them. Doing that on a smaller scale with Tyrion through his side conversations with Shae (while also showing the toxicity of the relationship), could have easily elucidated Tyrion's brokenness and need for genuine love. Ultimately, I think they changed Tyrion because they wanted to change the direction of his character arc. They saw a fun, interesting character that they liked, and they wanted to take him in a different direction. That's not an implicitly bad thing in itself: adaptations shift character roles all the time, and sometimes that can lead to interesting new takes. But it behooves you as the adapter, when making such choices, to have a plan which accommodates the changes you've made. D&D clearly did not, which is why I assert they did not understand them. If they understood them, then they would have realized the changes to the plot that would have been required. Instead, Tyrion became a well-intentioned dunce, Cersei got a galaxy-brain and somehow becomes a ruling Queen, Euron turns into Great Value Jack Sparrow, Varys and Littlefinger become utterly irrelevant and race to see who can get executed by their liege first, Jon Snow becomes a simp, and the Wildlings decide they liked semi-arctic conditions after all. They did not have a plan. Because they did not understand the characters. Because they aren't actually good story writers. They can improve on existing material (case in point, Arya/Tywin's scenes). But they didn't actually know how to craft long-running plots, a part of which requires intimate understanding of your characters, their motivations, and how they propel the plot forward. I realize this probably comes across as super aggressive, so I apologize if I sound antagonistic towards you personally. I'm just venting generalized frustration.
At some level she did love or care for her brother enough to honor him by having a dragon be named after him. In a way he lives on as a dragon like he wanted.
Ik you meant it as a joke,but i think you actually may be right. Ive read the books quite a few times and ive never picked up on quite a few of the stories mentioned here. Maybe its just me,and i did a terrible job at analyzing,but i never thought that tywin actually frequented whores. I never realized that tyrion was such a dark character. I knew that he had a lot of issues that had been brewing since childhood,but i only saw him as a slightly villainous character from the start of the a dance with dragons. I always pride myself on knowing nearly everything in the books, these vids reveal how little i know. Or maybe the world of ice and fire is so expansive that he actually reads it every time he makes a video on a certain topic/character
I love how many details there are in these books, hidden amongst the sheer length and massive cast of characters. Like the sailors wife potentially being Tysha, it's a very subtle hint and I've read these books countless times and never picked up on it. This channel really pays attention to every single word.
More people need to realize how badly D&D neutered the entire show/source material in general.. Like it's even worse than most people think it is, most think the show went to shit at Season 6/7, in reality D&D's stinky-smelly-bullshit is visible even in S2..
@@CommanderLongJohn Yeah lol, in the earlier seasons, they had the books to just copy off of, and GRRM had a lot of input then too, he even wrote some episodes himself. The show was able to be good despite D&D and was only bad when D&D chose to streamline storylines and whenever they felt like writing additional bullshit. When the books ended, and D&D were too proud, arrogant, or retarded, to ask for GRRM's help beyond "How do you think the story ends?", the show took a huge nosedive after S6. From what I heard, GRRM wanted more input in the show, and he wanted the show to go on longer, but D&D told him to fuck off pretty much because "We have a Star Wars to go ruin." And we got the trainwreck of pure rushed D&D writing in S8, with no input from anyone else. I hope D&D never write anything again, ever.
@@CommanderLongJohn Yeah, for sure. Was still a watchable show in the early seasons, but it really does pale in comparison to the books on almost every level. Not the fault of the actors or crew - it was purely poor writing decisions and lack of caring. I managed to shrug it off for season after season, but Barristan being killed off really was the first unforgivable choice they made - even the actor was appalled at being written out like that!
@@andromidius it’s such a damn shame for all the actors and other crew members. Pouring out you heart, souls and effort in giving a great performance and beautiful visuals and soundtrack and it all goes down the drain thanks to shitty writers.
the problem Tyrion has at the trial is that NOT ONLY does he have his enemies and Cersei's minions lying on him. He also has honorable men who tell the truth that yes 1) Tyrion struck Joffrey 2) Tyrion argued with the king 3) Tyrion threatened the king. Balon Swann and Garlan Tyrell don't lie at the trial, what they say is the truth. A very inconvenient truth for Tyrion but the truth.
i'd also like to add that the moment he's sentenced to death, is when he lost the thing that gives him power, his status as a nobleman. Sure, he's witty, but wit doesn't matter if people don't care what you say from the jump.
When you read the books your drip fed all this intrigue and its hard to take the account of one characters story and really analyze it while your going from POV to POV. But with a video essay like this you really get to see the fucking remarkable web of trauma, emotions, politics, and relationships that Martin has created in his books for just one group of characters. It all feels real, every one of the Lannister's does fucked up things for real reasons connecting back to their childhoods, fears, and desires. I know I don't have to sing the praises here but it's just impressive when put into this format. Really nice video.
Agreed. I love the books and even though they're amazing, a lot of times it's hard to understand why characters are acting this way. I love analyses like these because they clearly explain everything.
@@aniquinstark4347 I Imagine that GRRM's entire house is one big conspiracy wall, with every surface covered with plotlines, subplots, sub-subplots, character arcs, character histories, family trees, etc, with one small table and laptop for writing hidden somewhere in the middle of it all.
this actually explains a lot that happened in the show to me. the more the Show diverged from the Novels, the Worse that these characters became. because then the writers had to come up with character-development on their OWN to show what the Show-Version of Tyrion was becoming vs the Novel-Version... and that's when everyone realized the Show-Writers simply could not write... it definitely explains the turning-point of Tyrion better to me, after he kills Tywin. never read the novels and was disappointed at how he became so useless and brooding after that moment in the show. but it makes sense now. his character was ACTUALLY fated to become a total bastard who wished to watch the world burn... but the Show Directors wanted to to a total 180 from that fate because they had built such a beloved tragic-hero character already with Dinklage's superb acting because TV ratings. so they literally had to try and re-do his character from scratch at that point and simply couldnt match up to the writing of an actual book author in terms of character-development
You hit the mail right in the head. Tv shows always turn the bad guys into a livable hero like you said because of the great acting as well as trying to please the audience. I call it the Fonzy effect.
Yeah, it's not just Tyrion. Once they started to ran out of the books they were somewhat forced to make changes to simplify the plot. In S5 and S6 they butchered multiple storylines such as Stannis and North, Dorne; and the Tyrells and High Sparrow to keep the focus on 'main' characters. They also had to quickly change Jon and Daenerys in order to bring them into 'main' conflict. All of this would be fine if it weren't done with complete disregard for the characters themselves. S7 and S8 were just a poor attempt to make sense out of the bad decisions made before and a huge fan service.
@@RudolfHorvath The fact that they were rushing towards the end certainly didn’t help. They cut out SO much from the books it’s almost fascinating. I mean look what they did to Euron!
@@stingerjohnny9951 To me that's not Euron it was the wih version of Ramsey with no teeth. I'm so mad about how they completely deleted Dorne. ESPECIALLY with such talented actors like Pedro Pascal who opened the door in such a great fashion.
Tyrion resents Penny because Penny leans into everything about being a dwarf that his father taught him to hate... but Penny always had family who loved her.
Tyrion is the perfect example of what happens when people stop believing in what they can be, and start seeing what everyone else sees in them instead. They look at Tyrion and see a kinslaying, drunken, lecherous, morally devoid monster? So be it then.
No, it doesn't work like that, you need positive feedback to be good and do good things. If the world is against you it means they want it to be like that, they don't want a dwarf to be good then why push it?
Opposite for Jaime, too. Believed the hate placed on him as the Kingslayer made him irredeemable. After meeting Briene, who defies the expectations placed on women, and the loss of his one pride (his swordhand). He then removes Cersei from his life, he moves to end the Riverland conflict without bloodshed, and he works to be compassionate to smallfolk he previously sneered at.
It should be noted that GRRM has pulled a master stroke of prose. Tyrion and Jaime start at way different places to readers (well, in my experience!) who loved Tyrion and despised Jaime - yet as the story goes on we grow to love Jaime as he crawls out of his apathy and turn a bit sour on Tyrion as he slides down into petty cruelty. I so wonder how this probably tragic tale of two brothers will end.
Except Jaimes arc is obvious I wasn’t even aware of this darker interpretation of Tyrion’s story until watching this video. It’s a great video, but it picks and chooses a little to reinforce its point. Tyrion is still better than 99% of characters in this world
@@archivesoffantasy5560 book tyrion is so so fleshed out i love it he's probably one of my fav characters along with cersei but tv tyrion is probably one of my most hated characters along with arya and jon they make him so stupid and though he's not as clever as he thinks he is in the id rather have evil tyrion over his stupid version
Tragic ending incoming. Reading Jaime go from 'Kingslayer' to 'Goldenhand the Just'. Reading his POV's and how much better he has become as a person (Keeping his promise to Catelyn, doing justice, being less apathetic) is sad knowing that Tyrion is out there, stewing with rage and on his way back to Westeros.
@@archivesoffantasy5560 No, no he's not... the subjective structure of the book tricks the reader (and obviously D&D) but Tyrion does horrible things even in the first seasons/books. Just ask Symon Silver Tongue...
It’s also very telling that those relatives worship the very ground that Tywin walks on. Remember, Uncle Kevan was there when Tywin sent his son out to die and was the one to tell Tyrion to trust Tywin, and look how that turned out.
The most profound thing about Tyrion is from Genna Lannister when she’s speaking with Jamie; “he left a son” “That is what I fear the most in truth” “Tyrion is tywins son, not you.” So telling considering Gennas conflicted feelings towards Tywin
I haven’t been this thrilled for a GoT content ever since the disaster of season 8. Watching this made me fall in love with GoT all over again. Thank you so much Alt Shift! Please make more detailed videos like this for every major character (or House)of the story.
HBO should have definitely hired Alt Shift in the writing team for the upcoming prequel series House of Dragons. No one (besides Martin) knows the ASOIAF better than Alt Shift!
I second this, this is one of the most detailed and interesting ASOIAF videos I’ve ever watched and there are many main characters that need exploring and speculation.
Same. This video made me reread the books. I really had forgotten how good the characters and story are. Also I got so much more out of it than the first time I read them/watched the show
@@ceg496 I think they messed up Sansa too. That line about how she's glad she was raped and abused (????????) pretty much sums up how little they understand the character
@@ceg496 and about that change I can't shake the feeling that they did it just because sansas actress turned 18 around that time and they could do the rape scene for shock value and as a cheap way to move the battle of the bastards plot forward. Also her Vale plot in the books is way more interesting and more in line with her outsmarting littlefinger and making allies in the north
Thank you for reminding me what a remarkable writer GRRM is. The terrible ending blinded me to that, this video reminded me of just how much we still have to look forward to in the books. Now he just needs to finish them.
I think that the reason GRRM makes Tyrion seem like he could be a Targaryan (eventhough he's not) is to give Tywin something to attach his denial to and justify his doubts. If he had nothing but Lannister characteristics there would be no doubt about who Tyrion's father is and Tywin had no choice but to accept him.
The targaryens, like the lannisters, practiced incestuous marriages as well. Even viserion tries to rape danaerys in the books iirc, so tyrions deformity could still very well be from inbreeding even as a targaryen.
Tyrion’s biological parents don’t come into it for me. The narrative surrounding Tyrion and Tywin is just as compelling blood relation or not. It doesn’t take a shared mitochondria for me to find it tragic
Sometimes I think about how Peter Dinklage once said that he enjoyed playing Tyrion because the character was rich in depth and layers, so much unlike the one-dimensional caricatures that actors with dwarfism are often hired to portray. Then I think about how David and Dan gradually reduced Tyrion to a one-dimensional caricature during the last few seasons of the show. And then I get very, very angry.
The character deep dives, book-by-book with breakdowns is exactly what I need for every character. This was such a great video that put so many ideas together in my head. More please!!
I really wanted to see "evil" tyrion. It would have really given dinklage something to chew on. After that trial scene I was waiting with so much anticipation to see this great actor givin a complex storyline that would challenge the audience that loved him, and then they threw it away and gave him nothing but stupidity 😔
Would love to see it too. It would subvert our expectations big time, from a Lannister who is supposed to be different from the other Lannisters (who are evil) to the evilest Lannister of them all.
I agree with this, but I will say that I am not one of those people that hails the books as the only way his story should've or could've been told. After season four I definitely think that D&D could've found different ways to take Tyrion down that darker path,. even if it didn't happen exactly how it did in the books. I also wasn't that crazy about his storyline in A Dance With Dragons, because he doesn't really do that much but be melancholy and ask where whores go. But overall the more hopeless, resentfful side of him was embraced in the books much more than in the show. There's also the fact that, book Tyrion's story isn't over. Sure he's on the war path now, but will he stay on it? It's not as simple as the video kind of makes it seem. Book Tyrion is a little more conflicted, at least about Jaime, in terms of revenge. That could be something that makes him rethink whatever plans he has. Something will only know when TWOW, finally comes out.
Book Tyrion: deeply flawed, complex, have a tendency to do harm even though he has a good heart, were more like his father, have an interesting plot about finding his lost love, met some interesting people, still being witty, have a desire to bring chaos to westeros Season 8 Tyrion: "V A R Y S NO COCK"
The book character has not been given an ending and it's really quite pathetic to be this reductionist about the show's version of the character just because you're unable to live with adaptation changes.
He was very intelligent, or at least much more intelligent than what he became later in the TV series, but Tyrion also wasn't that wise and he had certain weaknesses that became his downfall despite all his smarts.
So, on the one hand, the show-runners made Tywin an extremely popular character with their slight revisions to the character to make him more sympathetic. On the other hand, they deeply missed (or intentionally distorted) the point that Tywin is "full of shit". This is a common theme in the depictions of Tywin in the books. When Tywin approaches Joffrey after the battle of the Blackwater, Tywin's horse drops poop all across the floor. Tywin dies on a privy, finally releasing all of his shit. At his funeral, barely anyone can tolerate being there because his corpse reeks horribly. After the funeral, it's commented that a general rain has cleared the air and made it smell better. Tywin was full of shit, and the world is a better place now that he's dead and buried. Unfortunately, Tyrion (and Cersei) absorbed all of Tywin's worst lessions.
They cutted the hardest edges, those details in the books that makes you really hates him (like, after the battle with him talking with Tyrion. Tyrion says to be forgiving with Joffrey out of "Youth follies", and Tywin goes "then i should be grateful he hasn't yet married a whore.") Those minor and big things, cutted of, makes Tywin less cruel and hateful, kind of "censuring" the greatest ahole of westeros.
What truly skyrocketed tywin's overall popularity in the show was his relationship with Arya Stark, or at least that is my guess. There are a lot of villains and characters in media and literature who fit a similar archetype but not many done as well as him, especially how George RR Martin portrays him in the books is absolutely spectacular. The best thing to do with a marketable villain, place That character in close proximity with someone who wants to kill them through a thin veil of ignorance. It's quite genius really.
@@OugiEin No, what TRULY rocketed Tywin's popularity in the show is Charles Dance's amazing performance. If you put Tywin in the hands of a lesser actor he wouldn't have been nearly as popular. Tywin (both in the show and the books) is a character who overplays a hand that has long run out of cards and expertly hides that fact. His money and power are gone, but he continues to act and play the Game of Thrones as though they are still there and Charles Dance perfectly portrays Tywin with the gravitas of the man with all his former power and wealth and allows no one to dare question whether he could use it.
TBH its enough for the someone in King landing capture and to force a friend of Daenerys to be put on some public shaming and hurt/killed by the ppl there will be enough for Danny to burn the shit out of the whole city and will be justified plenty of it
Not even fucking close , from background , to motivations to actual subtleties in his character , not to mention Griffith does not have a tenth of the good qualities of Tyrion. Griffith is born dirt poor , Tyrion is born into the wealthiest family of the continent , Griffith's charisma defines him and people worship him , Tyrion gets no respect because people in Westeros are cunts against those with dwarfism , Griffith is a frontline general as well as a strategist , brawns with a lot of brain but the former is more proeminent while Tyrion while certainly very brave in combat and trained in arms in so far as his handicap and its social implications hinder it , is a politician and bookworm first and foremost. Their fall from grace is also very different as Griffith had begun to deliberately distance himself and shutting off his empathy for his comrades because he erroneously believed it was the only way not to crumble under the blood spilled and the bodies of those who died for his dream , which led to him begining to see them less as individuals and more as solely assets. When Griffith sacrifices them in the Eclipse it is not a pure act of despair but a simple , cold , logical(his twisted logic) step to ensure his objectives. Tyrion's fall from grace occurs very differently and especially where he has a part is him trying to emulate his father and indulding in the petty violences that he erroneously believed would make him feel better and earn Tywin's approval which only served to further the view of those cunts who alraedy hated him anyway of the evil , scheming , lustful dwarf. Tyrion may yet find new purpose and help save the world from the Others, Griffith is fully undone and cares nothing but for power. Not to mention Griffith has killed more innocents than Tyrion ever has. No , his father's acts on the Riverlands are on him , not Tyrion even if his support of his father's acts is condemnable. Griffith literally opened the world for demons to plunder it. And perhaps I'll have to reread the books again but that prostitute did offer herself to fuck him , even if she didn't take pleasure from it , didn't she? Unlike Casca. Not a good comparison. Not one bit.
I really love the way you use the Bergolts piece to keep the image of book Tyrion firmly in the foreground of our minds. I always struggled imagining book Tyrion as he was described because I was a show watcher first but now, I think that's changed
You forgot the part where Tyrion tells the singer that he doesn't care to hear the song ever again, and then later he regrets not learning the full song. For hands of gold are always cold, but a woman's hands are warm...
Sometimes I think it would be karmic justice for Tyrion to be Tywins only real child, and that Jaimie and Cersei are actually the bastards of Aerys which could also make sense considering twins run in the dragon bloodline and incest. Cersei also has that mad king side to her.
@@kalashnikovdevil I really thought that would eventually somehow be revealed at least to the reader. I do want Tyrion to be a Dragon or at least bond and ride one considering his dragon obsession & his dreams, the fact that his eyes are miscolored, the fact everyone claimed he was a monster when he was born like Danys baby. But it would be karmic justice to Tywin that his only true born son was the one he hated, had the love of his life gang raped, & tried having killed. But then again Tywin is dead so we wouldn’t get to see him find out, but sometimes I feel he fears that could be the case deep down, which made him loathe Tyrion even more. When Tyrion says I am your son, maybe at that moment Tywin realized the truth he always tried denying, that his incest twins were actually Targaryen and the little demon he hates is his little demon. Tyrion does have traits of Tywin but that could also be from growing up with him. Let’s just hope GRRM cuts out his celebrity parties and gets to finishing. I for one am tired of his excuses because he never seems to just focus on writing the rest of the series. I think the limelight has really affected him and he just can’t get enough of it. He was a lonely dork his whole life, and instantly becomes a celebrity and cool when Game of Thrones series hits HBO. Anyone would fall to it like he has so I’m not saying he’s a bad guy or weak for it. Hell I used to be semi famous and it got to my head and I wasn’t even close to GRRM or even the least famous celebrities so I don’t blame him but it’s been years now, you’d think he’d learn. Not took me about two years to learn I was enjoying my time with “famous people” too much and that none of the ppl around me have a damn about me they just wanted to be around because they thought I was about to really take off. When I didn’t they all disappeared. I wish GRTM would learn this lesson and get back to his books. Sorry for the long rant lol
It's also ironic that all three of tywins children are the product of incest since they the children of tywins cousin so tyrion being a dwarf is tywins fault as is his two twins just keeping it in the family like their old man.
Except the gene that results in fraternal twins can only be expressed in women. (I don't know it it can be carried by men, but he definitely will not father twins as a result of it) because the gene relates to the frequency with which multiple eggs are released at the same time. the probability of Identical twins is not dependent on genetics at all.
@@essimathews9056 I didn’t know that but this is a fantasy book series so idk if all of that us put into account for the story. Either way I hope we get to read WOW soon
It's also a clue about Tyrion being a Motley symbol of "the Doom" of Valyairia. Lannister as a slave since Lannisters sold slaves for gold, since their gold mines are a lie. Gerion was sent to reopen the Targaryen mines to get gold, Brightflame was a ruse. The Targaryens were too greed and dug too deeply aka Dwarves/LOTR and Kryton/Superman.
@@maxgrozema1093 they sold the slaves Targaryens used to mine to the for gold that the Lannisters claimed came from their mines. When the doom happened the Lannisters had to live off the gold they already had and debt scemes, hence "a Lannister always pay debts"; I mean if you have a gold mine, why go into debt unless you don't have a gold mine.
@@gudboah4688you’re a child abuser who killed entire families and commissioned a song about it to feel badass? Please note the sarcasm. How is any of that cool or smart?
Please do more of “The real” GOT characters. Please do that for Stannis because he is not as much as a straight villain as I try ought him to be since i’ve been listening to the audiobooks.
I disagree, but I think it's really interesting how Stannis gets this response so much. I think it's because we only directly see him through the eyes of people who will make excuses for him like Davos or his Maester
Your ability to collate and present all of this information in such a linear and connected fashion is absolute brilliance. You really are impressive - well done!
Maybe it’s just me, but I honestly find the villainous Tyrion in the books more sympathetic and generally compelling than the righteously framed Tyrion of the show. His actions and moral inconsistency repeatedly confused and angered me, he never felt morally gray in the way many other characters did… he felt sloppily written and too easily forgiven by the writers when he would display cruelty and treason and the show presented it as just in whatever convoluted sense
Thinking about it, I think the biggest gut punch Tyrion could ever find isn’t Tysha being a whore, but her being married to someone else with a family and happy. At least that’s what I would write. Imagine Tyrion finds where whores go and it’s that they go make themselves a home with a person they really care about. They move on and live their lives. Not only would it be powerful for Tysha herself- continuing on despite her abuse at the hand of a noble and still finding love and meaning in the aftermath of a cruel circumstance- but it would crush Tyrion’s hope for being with her. She found someone else, move on from him, and no longer cares about him. Worse than not loving him, she did love him and now loves someone over him. He was replaced. That would send him truly spiraling I think
I think that would push him off the despair event horizon and make him an irreversibly evil monster. Edit: Granted, he's already done some pretty evil things by the start of WoW, but he could go full-blown Tywin.
@@concept5631On the contrary, I think that would actually knock some sense into him. Seeing his greatest love move on and find another will hurt him deeply but hopefully that would also inspire him to see that he can take that path too. That no matter how broken a person can be, they can always find happiness eventually which Penny could provide for him.
16:29 'The Starks and Tully's and Stannis don't wage war like that.' They come pretty damn close. Stannis at one point almost has an entire island full of people exterminated for money and retribution until Davos talks him out of it. Robb pillages the Westerlands, though not Casterly Rock or Lannisport, which the Lannisters own and are well defended, but instead he sends out vengeful, violent Rickard Karstark to raid along the cost and he sieges other castles. He gives Roose Bolton a position of command in the Riverlands and when Roose captures Harrenhall the cruelty there goes on unchanged. In the Riverlands we see villages burnt down now and in the past by "lions", "wolves", bandits and one that was burned down by Hoster Tully back in the day. The peasants can often hardly tell who is who, and it makes little difference to them. Tywin is worse than Stannis and Robb but its a matter of degree. There is no moral way to play the game of thrones.
it was Axell Florent's idea to burn Claw Isle and Stannis didn't agree to it or give the order even before Davos arrived . He's the only one who thinks of the human cost when fighting and doesn't target smallfolk.
@@terryjav1 That is indeed how it happened, but Stannis was quite seriously considering it. Davos thinks of the human cost. Stannis thinks in terms of honor and duty and that might elevate him slightly above some of his enemies, but he's also harsh and resentful, unable to communicate without death threats and willing to sacrifice others (eg Edric Storm) for his cause. I've seen no evidence that he cares particularly about the smallfolk or is that principled in not targeting them. He also employs a whole range of pirates, fanatics, bigots, sadists and other scumbags. Had he won the battle of the blackwater or occupied hostile territory the results would not have been that different from what Robb and Tywin did to the Westerlands and Riverlands. That he hasn't done any of that is because his story hasn't really been about war and its horrors as much as Robb and Tywin and their war has been. I personally think his downfall will be more personal and more related to his sinister magic and kinslaying and selling his soul to the devil, I mean fire and shadow god.
That's one of my favorite parts of Arya's journey in the Riverlands. The whole way through it's a personal, intimate look at the horrors of war, but at first it's only the Lannisters that are committing atrocities. Arya's journey begins in the Crownlands, for much of ACOK she is well behind Lannister lines. We see refugees, burned villages, Amory Lorch and the Mountain's cruelty, and it serves to stoke our hate for the Lannisters after what they did to Ned and cheer on our hero Robb. And then, as Arya is in her darkest place yet while suffering Harrenhal, the northmen arrive to save the day! ... But it's Roose Bolton lol. Nothing changes. Then throughout the next book, as Arya travels through the heart of the Riverlands and nearer the front, she gets to see the atrocities the wolves have committed too. Both she and the reader are left very uncomfortable.
@@Evilanious i haven't read the books in a while but as far as I'm aware he did geld some of his men for abusing wildling women when he attacked Mance Rayder. When he was going to sacrifice Edric (im not supporting that) it wasnt just for him, he's also thinking of the greater good and all the other kids that would die if he didnt do what's necessary. If he took King's landing there wouldn't be any of the unnecessary violence on a large scale because again he's a fair ruler and his men fear the law, unlike Lannisters who destroyed and killed scot free. And for his magic, Renly was going to kill him and usurp his throne so was it really that bad? He hasn't abused it in a malicious way like Euron and he did not sell his soul, otherwise he would've burned a lot more people. And the people he did burn were all guilty so can't say he was in the wrong.
I worked with Tywin Lannister (Charles Dance) on a couple of films, he was a gentleman and a marvellous actor to watch on set. Humble and friendly, a real pleasure to work with.
Yeah. Defeats the whole point of the Lannister family as this mafia like group that hate each other but all work together to defeat enemies because they have to (in early seasons). If they're secret Targaryens then its just...one lannister guy and these other weirdos.
I think the reasons the Lannisters were secret Targaryens is because Cersei and Jaime tried to copy off the Targaryens by secretly marrying and having kids. Just like the Targaryens had been doing for years. Brothers marrying sisters, cousins marrying cousins, nephews marrying aunts, ect, ect.
I think Tyrion would be the only perfect fit for being a secret Targaryen (aside from Jon) just so that the Dynasty Tywin wanted so much is crumbling to nothing
If George ever finished the books, I could actually see the show-ending unfold with Tyrion being the one to burn the city, betraying Danny's trust and completing his gradual descent from the man he thought he was to what everyone expected him to be; a grotesque monster. It would certainly make more sense than Danny losing her head and burning. The city for no clear reason
Haha I love how they made all the Dany fans cry because they couldn't accept anything except a fairy tale feminist dream ending for her. That's the only good thing about the last season.
@@sayuas4293 actually nop. Was completle out of character at that point for her to do what she did in the show :v. It's like You said that the chage of Jaimes character in the show was good XD. It couldd have been good if they would have developed her character to that point. But, that wasnt the case
@@sayuas4293 I don't think all fans were hoping for a "fairy tale ending" per se, just an ending that made sense. I'm not even against Danny becoming a mad Targaryen. But the way the show was written and rushed in the last season it really felt like the "mad queen" ending came out of nowhere because the showrunners didn't know how else to end it. And don't get me starting on the melting of the iron throne...
She's likely going to have some culpability, just not nearly to the extent of the show. As many others have speculated, Tyrion is going to push her to attack King's Landing harshly which will probably result in the wildfire caches going up. Giving Tyrion all the blame and absolving her would not only make him too black and her too white, it would ignore a lot of the other foreshadowing through the series. Having Tyrion deliberately destroy the city against her orders would, instead of being forced to confront her family's legacy, have the lesson be her realizing "Shit, I should never have trusted a Lannister".
I don't know that they could. In a novel, where you can read a person's thoughts, it's much easier to portray them committing heinous acts and still keep them somewhat sympathetic. To watch them commit those act in living color without access to their thoughts would make it much harder for the audience to sympathize. We react to visual stimuli much differently that verbal or written.
Tyrions courtroom speech would make so much more sense if he continued on this path, he had HATRED for those people but then goes on to do nothing but save them.
@@sit-insforsithis1568 Think about how much that f*cks up the story between him and Tywin tho Far better would be if Tyrion was Tywin’s *only* legitimate issue, Cersei and Jaime being the dragon spawn (I don’t really like this theory either, but it’s way more fitting)
@@warlordofbritannia Tywin kids are a total disappointment, Tywin failed as a father, failed as a friend to aerys the mad king, failed as a grandfather to the boy king joffery. But he was very successful as an administrator and politician. He hated his father for being both weak and stupid, he hated his life. If i were on Tywin position, i get that baby Tyrion thrown away to a cliff. Tywin a great political but a garbage legacy he left behind and crippled economy.
@@warlordofbritannia i dont mind it as a thematic contrast to Jon Snow. Both secret Targs, both outcasts but one raised by a loving and caring father and the other by cruel and sadistic father.
I love the fact that "The Bloody Hand", the Braavosi play about the circumstances around the deaths of Robert and Joffrey, really captures Tyrion's character despite being written across the ocean without direct sources. "The seven-faced god has cheated me. My noble sire, he made of purest gold, and gold he made my siblings, boy and girl. But I am formed of darker stuff, of bones and blood and clay, twisted into this rude shape you see before you. Give me the cup, for I shall drink deep. And if it tastes of gold and lion's blood, so much the better. As I cannot be the hero, let me be the monster, and lesson them in fear in place of love."
It's also a fun play on Shakespeare's Richard III, which was something of a political propaganda piece, intended to smear the late Richard as a villain for posterity, which it did for hundreds of years! It's no coincidence that Richard III was part of the losing faction in the Wars or the Roses, which ASOIAF is loosely based around, and that Elizabeth I, who was Queen while Shakespeare was writing, (and something of a fan of his work), was descended from the winning faction. Also worth note is that the two families who started the wars were named Lancaster and York - sounds familiar, doesn't it? I know that this is a very loose historical overview, with a lot of detail left out, but the parallels are still fun!
That, however, is not the whole truth. A part of Tyrion is what he became, the spiteful monster the world thought him to be, jealous of the easier love the others got on account of not being a deformed dwarf. Another part is the one the world didn't get to see. His love for the rejects and the downtrodden, his willingness to only harm those who have wronged him, and not the innocent. His compassion towards those with an unlucky fate (for example Jon, sent to the wall, or Sansa, who lost all her family, was kept imprisoned by a monster and force to marry and bed one she didn't like). Tyrion has a duality inside of him: the vengeful monster and the compassionate reject. Only a few characters have seen the latter, and even fewer care.
@@suleymanbabak1973 So true - he's such a wonderfully complex character. Too bad Peter Dinklage didn't have the opportunity to play the fully rounded Tyrion Lannister that we know from the books, it would have been a marvelous performance!
@@neuralmute "But I, that am not shaped for sportive tricks, Nor made to court an amorous looking-glass; I, that am rudely stamp’d, and want love’s majesty To strut before a wanton ambling nymph; ... And therefore, since I cannot prove a lover, To entertain these fair well-spoken days, I am determined to prove a villain And hate the idle pleasures of these days." It's a full-on nod to the Shakespearean influence on Tyrion's character, Martin really went for the "This play is my in-universe version of the play 'Richard III' in history" angle
I know the video is about Tyrion not the random slave girl in the brothel but it really rubs me the wrong way the way they changed that character in the show too. In the books this charchter really highlights the trauma of sexual slavery. This girl is already broken from years of abuse, Tyrion is just another in a long line and it shows in her description as 'dead' metaphorically. In the show she's just like... okay with her lot I guess. Maybe not happy, but she's well-spoken, healthy, clean and seemingly at ease with her 'job', and in Tyrions case at least is portrayed as consenting. This would not be the reality for the vast majority of slaves, especially those forced into the sex trade. The show doesn't just white wash Tyrion, they also whitewash the horror of sexual slavery, and I hate it.
Show runners wouldn't want such a realistic view of what sex work is. A lot of what they did and what brought them audience were sex scenes, usually involving sex workers/slaves, and it was always very "clean" so that ppl wouldn't be too turned off by it. That one slave girl was a slap of harsh reality right across Tyrion's face. He was a broken man taking advantage of broken women, and sometimes being part of what broke them too.
@@OnceUponReddit you cared enough to comment mate. There's this thing where if you don't care about the same things as someone else you can just... move on with your day instead of being bitchy about it for no reason. You should try it. Have a good one.
hope so i love the lore n shit but i dont have time to sit and read the whole series, ive read the first but its a lot to catch up on and vids like this are dope
Simple, Tyrion is neither a villain nor a hero, Tyrion is someone I think we would all become if we were treated the way he was and if we experienced the pain he did. Tyrion is honestly one of the best characters in the book, because unlike Jon who is clearly a hero type, or Cersei who is obviously a villain, Tyrion has both evils and goods, which is what every person no matter who you are has.
@@ChangedMyNameFinally69 no good deed negates a bad, and no bad deed negates a good. Unless like you save someone's life and immediately murder them. That literally negates it. But you get what I mean. Does someone raping and murdering a minor get negated by them doing absolutely anything and everything they possibly could to better our species technologically and socially? I would hope not. We are all good and bad. Maybe one more oft than another, but we are both. It's not mutually exclusive
One note: I truly don’t believe Tywin ordered the death of Elia. The children yes, but he was too politically savvy to make an enemy of the Dornish because of a slight they had nothing to do with. He even explains to Tyrion that the reason Gregor killed her was because he didn’t tell him not to. At the time Gregor was still a teenager and it’s believable that Tywin underestimated his brutality.
I dunno, Tywin is a sadistic son of a bitch and there’s a theme of mothers going nuts after the death of their kids so maybe he was paranoid she would spearhead a revenge scheme
Tywin actually says as much to Tyrion in the books. He didn’t order Gregor Clegane kill Elia, but he also didn’t order him to spare her, indeed he doubted that he even mentioned Elia at all. Elia slipped his mind because he was more concerned about the arrival of Ned Stark and the threat that Aerys might kill Jaime. He regards Elia’s death as ‘sheer folly’ and was disgusted by the rape. He explained that he didn’t fully realize what kind of beast Gregor was at the time.
Elia got what Cersei was supposed to have, so honestly I think he might have really done it while deciding that he could blame it on Gregor if the Dornish ended up wanting retribution - like Tyrion, Tywin was fond of revenge. Mind you Elia's kids were Doran and Oberyn's nephew and niece, so as to what was politically savvy even killing them could anger the Dornish, especially if Elia was supposed to be sent back to Dorne after that. And really, Tywin has a habbit of surrounding himself with complete freaks who do his bidding violently.
@@alicedeligny9240 I'm with you on this. Sparing Elia wouldn't do shit if he planned on killing the children anyway. Tywin is noted for not fighting unless he knows he can win. What would Dorne have done with no allies? Nothing, just like they did.
you should absolutely try reading the novels! they are beautifully written with complex character work like here that tackle multiple complex themes. And contain several different types of story, from tragic heroes to redeeming villains to epic action, cunning intelligent narratives, etc.
Tyrion didn't take the fur from Benjen - Benjen had offered a really scuffed fur to him, assuming he would refuse it because it was undignified, but Tyrion accepted it with a comment like "Lannisters take what is offered.".
I rlly hope if he does another one of these character analysis it’s on Daenerys, mainly cause I feel analysis and breakdowns of John Snow and his future are always done constantly. Out of the three “main characters” of the books I believe Daenerys gets the least attention and I would want to see how she is in the books compared to the show while also possibly growing more fond of the character in general
I personally really like her in the books, she cools it on the “YA QUEEN!” badass speak and talks like a human, even when she’s slowly losing it in ADWD
God yes. Especially since D&D left her charcter completely butchered in the show. A good, thorough, text-based deep dive to clear up all the gross misconceptions of her character from the show version would be so refreshing.
When there is constant inbreeding within a family. They will almost always eventually end up having a ton of health issues and deformities. People who don't believe that he was deformed, or had some kind of issues with his health. Have obviously not done any research on the topic.
@@jamiebaker7066 The only reason it works for the Targaryens is because they have magic blood. And even then, half of the Targaryens are mad. That said, deformities are only really common with pervasive generational incest, and there were likely folks amongst his family who looked normal or were healthy, so I could still see him being mistreated for being a hunchback and his condition being used as an excuse for his behavior.
@@stingerjohnny9951 depends on how pervasive the generational 'incest' was. While I've found no relation between Richard III's paternal great grandparents, his parents were something like second cousins once removed while his paternal grandparents were first cousins twice removed.
@@stingerjohnny9951 Also, scoliosis is not a cause of being a hunchback (that's kyphosis), and it was conclued that despite how dramatic it looked it could be concealed by clothing.
From what I've read (research based on accounts and portraits from his period, and then of course his remains), I think that the most likely version is that he had _some_ small but visible disfigurement which was later widely exaggerated by his victorious opponents as a terrible hunch for propaganda reasons. Most likely the truth, as always, lies somewhere between "a deformed monster" and "100% healthy".
I read the books as they came out year by year, and I never once considered Tyrion a villain. The show did paint him any better light, but honestly they painted everyone in a better light. Tywin was almost like a regular guy in the show, in the book he is absolutely a villain.
@@dylanmartin6267 if i'm being 100% honest most of the characters of this series is pretty much a terrible person so i can't really blame Tyrion for going ballistic lol. How do you NOT expect someone like him to become a villain after all the stuff he went through? Most people irl lash out for way less
@@crimson19 Being a hero is better than being a villain, though. Choosing hate takes zero effort and harms yourself and others. Not choosing hate is what makes people a hero. After having a million reasons to hate, but choosing love instead. We don't admire Batman and Iron Man for their cool suits alone. On a more profound level, we admire them, because despite their parents being violently deleted, and them facing injustice at various points, and having reasons to be bitter, they choose love, and heroism, to seek to help and save people. It is almost tear-jerkingly admirable. Those emotions stir us as humans, because we, in our own lives, choose daily with our decisions, light or darkness. To be a hero in the story of our lives and the people around us, or to be a villain.
I disagree about Slynt and Pycelle. That wasn't Tyrion trying to increase his own power for the sake of power, but because he figured out that both of them were puppets of his sister and he realized he had to strip Cersei of as much power as he could or else she and Joffrey would unintentionally sabotage their own rule with their cruelty and arrogance. So in a way that was Tyrion trying to work for the greater good, and we do see that when he isn't emulating the cruelty of his father Tyrion can make a surprisingly good leader.
Imprisoning Pycelle always seemed odd to me. It's not a permanent solution. Surely someone would come and let Pycelle out eventually, he was well connected, he was the grand meister! So Tyrion imprisoning him was obviously going to backfire, as soon as Pycelle got out, Tyrion would have a powerful new enemy.
I agree. And that's the part of Tyrion that wins over Varis, who sees him as valuable asset for his plot. It's Varis who really saved Tyrion from execution. Jamie was just part of it.
I disagree. At best Tyrion is Machiavellian in rule. He does what has to be done. Which includes, making sure others don't undo you. In the course of it he schemes, bribes and murders left and right. He relies on cutthroats. His spats with Cersei are clearly not merely utalitarian but personal. He delights not just in killing, but doing so in cruel, unusual and ironic ways. And obviously he spends a lot of effort on Shae. Tyrion can do a great job (especially for his age) and be a good administrator. He has a keen understanding of the job (unlike Cersei) and can even be heroic when needed. But he is also proud, entitled, self-serving and cruel. Finally, I don't think Tywin is cruel. He is ruthless and remorseless. But it's purposeful, not for its own sake. Again, Machiavellian. Do bear in mind, we mainly know Tywin from Tyrion's biased perspective. On analysis, Tywin does pretty well by his kid, despite hating him at least as much as Cat hates Jon, and for far better reasons.
I love this video so much, people tend to forget about the "ugly face" of Tyrion and pretend he is only sunshine and drunk rainbows. I'd love a "The real Daenerys" vid.
I would KILL for a “The Real Daenerys” video. She consistently did SO much to try and do things right, to toe the line between forgiving and hard ruler, and she was politically very smart. D&D butchered her character, and gave some of her best “smart decisions” in the book to the men around her.
@@chaliezarde She literally tortured a maid in ADWD, who was innocent because there was no proof to the accusations against her. Stop pretending that Dany is a flawless ruler. She is a tyrant who needs to be put down like a dog.
@@larochejaquelein3680 Rhaena commanded Merle Bullock to question the stable boys sharply after the theft of the dragon eggs yet she is neither insane nor a tyrant. Jaehearys, someone unanimously agreed to be the best king ever, cruelly punished then men (in a large hungry crowd) responsible for the death of Rego Draz. Also, almost all the characters have done worse. Robb goes on a war and plunders the westerlands, Stannis intends to sack Kingslanding without a thought, (how else is he going to control the pirates?), Robert and Ned ended the war on Pyke brutally, etc etc. Nobody’ arguing she is flawless, unless you mean to tell me there is indeed someone flawless that she should aspire to be. Just telling you that you’re a hypocrite for calling her a tyrant “who needs to be put down like a dog.”
@@rehaan6428 he only wants her "put down like a dog" because she doesn't have a penis. Literally all the men in GoT have done just as terrible things, if not worse, but they skate by judgement-free because ~*PeNiS pOwEr*~
Yeah, I've always wondered why people called Tyrion a villain, but it makes a lot more sense now. He's definitely written as a protagonist and good guy by D&D, but he definitely sounds more like a villain in the books. Its also weird that D&D didn't just trust the fifth book instead of trying to deviate from it that point. The speculation that you did in this video sounds a lot better than the seasons 6-8 that we got from D&D. I like the idea of Tyrion convincing Dany to brutal and invade King's Landing, unleashing some of the Wildfire, and then teaming to help fight the White Walkers as his true redemptive character arc.
When I read Tyrion's pov chapters I am reminded of the old African proverb that, "The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth"
@@summ.3433 well I like it up to season 6. That’s when the dialogue and the plot REALLY started going downhill. The plot holes before that were to be expected of such a long and complicated show.
I love in the books when Tyrion catches Shae and she calls him "my giant of Lannister" And Tyrion goes: "That was the worst thing you could have said." *strangle*
While a lot of people condemn Tywin for his hypocrisy vis-à-vis whoring, he actually wasn’t being hypocritical if you read between the lines. When warning Tyrion to stop seeing whores, he said that he would no longer suffer Tyrion to bring *shame* upon House Lannister. His issue wasn’t Tyrion sleeping with common women in and of itself, but his complete lack of discretion as a lordling. Meanwhile, we never knew anything about Tywin sleeping with whores until his final scene, because he did his best to keep it on the down-low. Not trying to say Tywin was a great guy or father of the year, but it is an important distinction.
Yea but it becomes insanely hypocritical when the main person he’s hiding shae from is Tywin himself. He’s creating a problem where there isn’t one, why not tell Tyrion to use the secret tunnel? Why make it more difficult for him? He’s even aware of Jamie’s relationship with Cersei and still wanted him to be heir to the rock. Even after the rumors became public he still wanted Jamie to resign his kings guard post and be heir. Tyrion couldn’t win no matter what he did and he’s too clever to be docile so there relationship was destined for failure
“Tyrion is smart, but not that smart I guess.” -actual quote from Peter Dinklage after reading the script of Season 8.
Fuck Dumb & Dumber !
I bet Peter dinklage would have loved to test his acting chops turning everyone's favourite character into a villain.
Lollll. this cracked me uppp haha
@@Cheesusful We get to see some of that in the trial. He would have been so good.
@@Cheesusful That’s the most depressing thing. For a show that got famous for pushing lines you don’t cross, they were clearly terrified to make Tyrion a villain for being afraid of losing the audience and blurring the lines of morality in their “good” characters, leading to the collapse of Tyrion as a character- with that indecision being behind many of the shows later problems.
Tywin building a tunnel to a brothel is the funniest thing in the series
Imagine if he tunnelled into it like a mole
Show how much hypocritical Tywin is behind his Lion pride image.
@@Themanwiththeplan1899it’d be bad if you miscalculated
@@TimesFM4532He would just say something about creating a escape route in case something happened and leave
It's inferred that Tywin might have fathered a bastard who became one of the whores in the brothel too.
“…and Strong Belwas wants liver and onions.”
Truly, the most compelling character story of ASOIAF.
Fuck now I want liver and onions
Better to stick to liver and onions think of how much pain these "normal" relationships did in the show
Would you like a nice Chianti with that?
Strong belwas is a fucking beast
It’s a crime they didn’t have him in the show and replaced him with Dario. Strong Bella’s fighting that dude on the horse then shitting on him in front of the whole city, incredible. Then eating ALL of the poisoned honey locusts meant for Danerys, puking and crapping his brains out on his death bed, but SURVIVING. He’s the GOAT eunuch.
props for Tywin, he really did not only get himself his own brothel but decorated it with his houses colors like a cartoon villain
I think he just built a tunnel to an already existing brothel😂
Ikr
>How does one conceal their house's sullied reputation?
>They paint a whorehouse in the house's heraldic colors!
Brilliant
Wouldn't be surprised If a person as mediocre as Tywin would do It. Dude cant win battles against a 16 yo hormonal kid, so what he does? Essentially political and cultural suicide in his part by whacking people in the kids wedding, all under guest right
I know right? But Tywin pride is his downfall. So him making a secret tunnel where the window had Lannister colors? Totally something he would do despite hiding it from others.
In hus defense he probably just refurbished the tunnel lol
What I think pissed Tywin off so much about Tyrion was that he was the son he wanted. He had a brain, an ability for finances and he had the head on his shoulders to rule...if Tyrion had been born with Jaime's body he would have had the perfect son
And if his mom didn't die giving birth to him
Also Tyrion is who he is today in response to the people treating him as less (because he's a dwarf). If he looked like Jaime who knows what kind of upbringing he'd have, he could just be another Jaime
Also the fact that Tyrion killed his mother made Tywin hate him even more.
@@ZoruaHunter that isn’t great point
@@horsem.d.7979 its a horrible combination of things: his body, Joanna's death, and the belief he is Aerys' son. If one or two of those things were removed, I think Tywin could deal with it. And honestly I think they are in ascending order of problems. Joanna being gone is probably worse than Tyrion being a dwarf.
Maester Luwin: What are the words of house Lannister?
Bran: Daddy Issues
A common saying, but not their true words
@@alexdigg I was hoping someone would comment that lol
@@shivanijoshi9252 I'm surprised I was the first one
Hear me roar !
Like how real life lion prides work.
"The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth" - African proverb
That's dark...
Daaaamn
@@cibo889 its deep in the way its a really poetic image, and dark in the way its a very powerful critique on society.
selfish
@@cibo889 Bruh it's a wise saying it may not be deep to you but it's still a clever saying. Go take your weird ass energy somewhere else.
"He spends the last few series looking sad and hopeless."
That's because he read the scripts
That interview(I think on set) where he's sorta laughing off Tyrions dumb decision at the battle of winterfell. He says:
"So they have to hide from the dead people, so they go into the crypts with all of the dead people in them. I guess Tyrion's smart, but he's not that smart."
It's terrible he had that much awareness of how downhill his character went
Notice how the entire world fell apart not long after season 8?
Yeah, the gods definitely cursed us. I think the only way to end this curse is to sacrifice the two writers d&d. It's worth a shot at least.
@@LisaAnn777 sacrificing them would probably look like an insult to the Gods with how much they screwed up hahahaha
No he didn’t get a full monopoly on all dwarf roles that’s why, he had a role to to another dwarf so he got depressed he didn’t have 100% control over that market of actors.
"Tywin is not a golden lion. He is a deeply flawed man full of shame and spite and lust just like his son, Tyrion."
Dude, that was beautiful.
i love the actor but tywin character jesus christ he’s nothing but a sore loser
he died of sh’tting he’s a sh’t dad
tywin being full of bullshit in regards to his image and dying literally shiting is beautifully poetic, another layer from this great tyrion x tywin arc i hadnt realize before
@@aesir1ases64 Don't forget Shae mistook Tyrion as Tywin, and called him my lion. If you were Tyrion, you will be deeply disgusted by this merciless but hypocrite father.
Tywin himself married his love but forced his children to marry for geopolitical gains
It would be beautiful, except that Tyrion is *_not_* Tywin's son.
Tyrion slowly corrupting Daenerys and enabling her more violent aspects is an excellent slow build up to her wanting to reduce King's Landing into a pool of dragonfire
At the very least, that would've somewhat justified her actions in the adaptation.
Too bad that never happened.
@@iplay10101 we are talking about the lady who burned down cities and crucified peoples while being praised by everyone
D&D: “Nope, too complex, she just forgot her original intentions.”
Lemme guess you're one of those people who defend her and make excuses for her violent behavior?
The whole point of her character is to show that some people you think are dispensing justice just like to kill.
I feel so bad for Peter Dinklage. As far as I can tell, he's a smart guy, it must have pained him to portray Tyrion's descent into stupidity after season 4.
Can you imagine what an incredible performance an actor of Peter Dinklage's calibre could have given as the *REAL* Tyrion Lannister post S4? It could have been even better than his first 4 seasons put together! From everything I've seen of him, he's a remarkable actor, and the last 4 seasons completely cheated him.
@@neuralmute #JusticeForPeterDinklage
He has all those paychecks to wipe his tears with.
A few interviews I've seen parts of, you can see he hides his disappointment/frustration etc. poorly. The same as a few of the other actors also I guess. For such a good actor, I'm sure that they were not a mistake or oversight on his part.
@@JanjayTrollface I've got a feeling that he, and more than a few other GOT actors (Emellia Clarke anyone?) are just biding time until their non-disclosure agreements have run out so they can give the real scoop. I'm expecting at least a couple tell-all books every bit as heart wrenching and gruesome as anything GRRM has ever written to show up in a few years!
Good point about Tyrion really failing in book 2. He thinks he's a player, but Varys and Littlefinger are the real masters of the game.
Theres actually a scene in the show in this context I really like. Tyrion asks Varys what he *really* wants. Varys makes Tyrion tell him his motivation and then shift the conversation to avoid the original answer. He says Tyrion is smart and a good player and Tyrion agrees, not realising he was just played
He thinks he’s a games master but really he’s a piece in the board
I would say Varys is a MUCH better player than Littlefinger and Tyrion. But they all have wins and losses to eachother (Like when Tyrion outsmarted Petyr and learned a bit about his money schemes). But Tyrion just didn't have as big as a network as they did as well as that he let himself be distracted.
I would argue LF is just a unwitting pawn in Varys game.
I haven't read the books but in the series, he stopped playing eventually. Accidentally grew himself a soul...
Honestly I'd really love a "The Real Stannis Baratheon" video, because there's still a lot of people who only watched the show and didn't read the books so they're missing out the great character that is Stannis
Absolutely. That should be his next video for sure
For all the bullshit writing in the show, Stephen Dillane did a great job portraying a character he admitted having a hard time understanding since the writing made no sense to him, a veteran and utterly professional actor, that Liam Cunningham had to help him construct his acting instead of, you know, the showrunners.
That would be good since I've only watched the show and stannis is an incompetent idiot who just wants to be king for me.
Book Stannis would honestly kill show Stannis himself tbh.
@@iMeiTerumi I mean thé show stannis is told to be a great strategist but loses every battle he's shown to fight.
''The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth"
@@seanschwetz7025 there happy now?
@@xheixhevairi4857 Dude was just helping out
This is an African proverb
@@seanschwetz7025 cringe and gross
@@adikavita436 dude was just being condescending
We've waited so patiently for our hour-plus of Tyrion content, and now we finally have it. Bravo, AltShift, you've outdone yourself
Alt Schwift X's rap is better: th-cam.com/video/YKIrVoq8xv8/w-d-xo.html
YES
Hear, hear!
I get more excited when I see AltShiftX has dropped a new video than literally any other TH-camr
@@t.j.christensen6305 it is
Tyrion in the show: mostly clever sad rejected boi
Tyrion in the books: we live in a society
🤢🤮
Every time I see someone use "boi" instead of "boy" i vomit in my mouth a little bit. God, how did my generation f*ck up and raise such a generation of morons?
That joke was in the video.
Yeah that is low key kind of dumb
society 🤡
Didn't you know? In the show, Jamie killed the real Tyrion in the black cells and we were really following Oppo the Whimsical Tumbling Dwarf.
Suddenly the last few seasons make a lot more sense... it also makes sense that they cut Penny out of the show! She would have recognized him!
Hello, fellow Lord Glimbus fan
Ohhh that makes way more sense now!
There’s also the parallels of Jaime and Tyrion’s arcs. As the story progresses, Jaime becomes more heroic, while Tyrion becomes more villainous.
Post-ASOS Tyrion is indeed villainous, but I still hope that Tyrion manages to redeem himself in some way before the end of the series.
I hadn't even realized. Now that I think about it his interactions with Penny seem very similar to Jamie's with Brienne.
@S. Oh, that's hard. I guess if I had to pick the U-turn option. I want Jamie redeemed but I would rather see Tyrion not end fully evil at the end. But hopefully not be handled the same way it was in the show.
Jaime needs see his redemption through. Especially after burning Cersei’s letter and his upcoming confrontation with Lady Stoneheart. It would be super jarring and counter productive if he crawled back to Cersei.
Plus he’s my favorite POV character. Tyrion is a very close second.
Tyrion, either way could work. Full dark side, or dark side until the few moments, both outcomes work really well and are very fitting for him.
@S. I kind of liked the Jamie dying with his sister thing like the way they did it in the show was awful but him going back to try to save the only woman he ever loved despite how terrible and destructive their relationship was and dying trying to protect the queen is actually a pretty good ending. He goes back in for filled his Val like a true knife protecting his queen the woman he loves despite it all it’s not a happy ending but it’s bittersweet in a way I kind of like
Well, Jaime _intends_ to become more heroic and Tyrion _intends_ to become more villainous. Kind of a difference :P
The irony is Tywin constantly publicly humiliating Tyrion contributes to people laughing at him. If Tywin had supported him, shown him proudly and given him power, set his wrath on people that belittled Tyrion, people probably wouldnt have dared laugh
“One often meets his destiny on the road he takes to avoid it.”
It’s almost eerie how often this quote is appropriate Eh?
Basically, Tyrion's line at the trial "I wish I had enough poison for the whole lot of you" was squandered. At this point he had anger and a desire to destroy those who looked down on him for being a dwarf. These feelings should have propelled him to Dani so that he can join her and use her desire for the throne to achieve his own revenge. Instead we get a drunken dwarf who fails upward every scene.
With the way tyrion was seen by most people, he only had 2 possibilities either be a drunken dwarf, or could possibly be written as one of the best tragic villains in tv history. yet they chose the worse one
I liked Tyrion in the show but he had potential to be much better
@@homersimpson6585 I loved how dark he was getting in the books, and I hope it continues.
It's crazy how Tyrion's dark side makes him even more compelling. As someone that has been exposed to only Show Tyrion, I like this version more.
I don't! 😳
I kept waiting for his redemption arc in this video, but halfway through it didn't come, and maybe it won't, he's written to a wall it seems. While I agree that the Tyrion in the show is likeable, he seems written too pristine too, like too "good" to be interesting.
I feel the show version would have been better if he was consumed by hate after he kills Tywin. And he only went to Dany to get his revenge on his family. Maybe if they wanted they could redeem him when he sees how his hatred got the people of King’s Landing killed and decides to redeem himself when he helps defeat the Night King. When Bean becomes king, He sends Tyrion to the Night’s Watch to help with the library or he could be sent to look for his wife without his tongue (an impossible task).
@@karu6111 He was starting to become less good in season 4 but then the shorunners just stopped caring in the later seasons. His speech at his trial and then killing Shae and Tywin, while justified, was pretty dark
@@celieboo I also prefer s1-s4 Tyrion over book Tyrion
i really hope we are gonna get an entire "The Real" series of videos of all the noteworthy characters. Great vid and i hope for more
The real Euron Greyjoy
@@simonriley4131 Just Schift crying into the microphone for 3 hours and making exasperated noises every so often.
First of all, let the next book come out
Varys
Littlefinger
Euron
Need it
There is no 'real' character. We have different versions that are both fictional characters and equally valid for the stories that were being told.
Can this become a new series with all the character from Game Of Thrones please?
The REAL Sansa Stark
The REAL Cercei Lannister
The REAL Bran Stark
This!
I'd love to see the REAL Stannis the Mannis
The REAL Theon Greyjoy
Because TV Theon is almost a completely different character.
In interviews GRRM has stated that there is no "real" versions of characters. There is simply tv Tyrion and book Tyrion, because Tyrion is not a real person. I do agree book Tyrion past book 3 is more interesting.
Please pretty please!
The REAL finger in the bum
I actually never realized Tyrion was supposed to be seen as a villain, since while reading the books i could relate to a lot of his struggles and could understand why he became so full of hatred and malice. I'm don't condone his actions, but think about what YOU would do, being born in the time and place he was, with the body he has and with a family that despises you for something outside of your control. I don't know what i would do but i'd be REALLY overestimating myself if i said i could stay being a sane, kind man
I mean, that is what makes a hero and upstanding person.
When you have every reason and possess power to reflect back the poor treatment you have received hundredfold, and instead break the cycle with kindness.
Me too! I do now realize that he's becoming more villainous but because I was reading his chapters from the beginning I had an attachment with his character and couldn’t see his action as evil but justifiable, it's not
I was in Afghanistan for a while. Learned very quickly what i was willing to do. I don't like Tyrion just because he goes into excess which is why I always felt closer to Tywin.
@@sinwithagrin4243 you mean closer to the father who ordered his guards to gangrape his son’s girlfriend and subsequently ordering him to rape her too. Cool.
That’s why Martin said Tyrion is the greyest of the grey.
Tyrion: "I want to be loved"
Penny: "Um...hi?"
Tyrion: "No, not you..."
Lmao why should he love a dwarf
@@penguenefendi8148 why does it matter that she’s a dwarf
Not to mention she grew fond of him after trying to kill him. Many people would be less forgiving.
@@penguenefendi8148 You don’t find it a bit ironic that Tyrion whines about how everyone belittles him for being a dwarf, but he can’t extend the same humanity/dignity he craves towards another dwarf? Like the thought hadn’t crossed his mind at all?
Not interested is simply not interested, but not interested based on her Dwarfism, when he’s also a dwarf is a bit dense.
@@samiam2088 except it's not because she's a dwarf that he rejects her
I would really like a Real Stannis, Real Jon Snow, Real Cersi, and Real Daenerys videos comparing how the show changes characters versus how they are portrayed in the books. You could probably do this with many other characters but the four I have mentioned seem the farthest away from their book counterparts.
I TRULY needs an Real Stannis video!
We need stannis the mannis
YES! We need the REAL Stannis, The King Who Cared. The REAL Daenerys, Breaker of Chains. The REAL Jaime, Goldenhand.
@@teamblack204 The REAL Jon, the White Wolf! (Or the Wolf with Dragon's Blood, perhaps)
@@PedroLucas-mg5je Yes! And of course, The Prince That Was Promised. I'll have a breakdown if Arya turns out to be Azor Ahai in the books too😂
I love Varys' manipulation of Tyrion even during their last meeting. Like, "No! Don't climb exactly 240 steps up that ladder! Don't turn right and choose the first door on your left, that is so terrible! Don't pick up the crossbow and kill your father (which will make my plans for fAegon much simpler)! This is folly, my Lord!" *Titters*
Adding 'titters' was such a nice touch.
🙌🏻😆😂🤣
Hahaha...😁😆😅🤣😂
Varys in later seasons: I'm just in this scene to remind everyone I don't have any balls.
@@richardrichard688 Tyrion in earlier seasons: Near-genocidal speech about people of KL
Tyrion in later seasons: Character development? Lol who cares I suddenly LOVE the smallfolk I'm a goody-goody don't mind me uwu 😊
A book-accurate Tyrion behind Daenerys, feeding all of her worst instincts with his own would have been so compelling. It could have been. It *SHOULD* have happened. But what we got instead...
Show Tyrion after season 4 is just
“Guys can’t we just get along😔”
“No!”
“Ok 😔”
“Jaime,” she said, tugging on his ear, “sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna’s breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there’s some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak... but Tyrion is Tywin’s son, not you.
- A Feast for Crows, one of the many great quotes that didn't make it into seasons 5-8
The fact Genna wasn't in the show is a crime.
@@sirfatty5068 honestly, the other Lannisters add so much to the family dynamics, so many "small characters" got left out who actually contribute vital pieces to the overall puzzle.
Beautiful quote
Was that his aunt that said that?
@@MrMineHeads. Yep, Genna Lannister. I believe it was at the siege of Riverrun, about the time when the show Jaime was searching Dorne for the bad pussy.
Sounds like the Lannisters needed a family therapist.
Or a condom
They should have practiced eugenics, getting rid of any genetic defects.
Are we sure the targaryens is the crazy family?
incest is not wincest
Sounds like you're volunteering lol best of luck.
This confirms in my mind that D&D never actually understood any of the characters in the series. They just had a superficial liking towards certain characters (Tyrion, Renly, Starks), and preferred to either whitewash them to be better than they were (Renly supposedly caring for the realm, Catelyn supposedly feeling guilt over Jon), or paint opposing characters far worse in comparison (Stannis being a murderous horndog, Edmure being an incompetent gloryhound). They took what should have been gripping psychological dramas of inner conflict, and dumbed them down into good/evil dichotomies, with characters flipping between them like an on/off switch.
Or maybe...just maybe they understood them but you disagree with their views of the characters? There is more than one way to interpret a fictional character.
@@Regenmacher175 There's a difference between understanding a character differently, and outright changing the character's actions to avoid those parts about them you don't want to depict. The former can happen in areas of ambiguity, where it's not clear why the character did what they did. But in the absence of that, if you are creating new motivations out of whole cloth, or in contradiction to others plainly stated in the source material, then you are no longer adapting the character from the books, but creating a new character with inspiration from the books.
Considering what happened with many of these characters' concluding arcs in the show, it's clear they either never understood the source material, or weren't skilled enough to create character arcs to replace what they changed. Ye shall judge them by their fruits.
@@MasteringJohn I think it's more complex than "understanding" vs "not understanding".
The show made choices which were justified by its format yet had HUGE impact on character development.
In the case of Tyrion, they "removed" Taisha, only mentioning her as a prostitute, and kinda replaced her by Shae (emotionally). For the show, it made sense because bringing a character who was only mentioned in the 1st season, up to the end of the 4th, would not have worked well - make more sense to give importance to the character the audience actually SAW with tyrion. You can contest this choice still, but it's quite a logical one. Right or wrong, this choice completely changed the relationship between Tyrion and his brother, as well as his perception of the world. Show tyrion and book tyrion HAD to take different path in order to keep coherent story telling.
To be honest, I completely buy both versions of Tyrion... up to a certain point in the show, where he seemed to have lost his main trait: his intelligence è_é but the whole rant about the "real" Tyrion sounds absurd to me.
Books: “Edmure is so upset at the passing of his father that he drank his sorrows away, only to have a huge hangover at the wake. His aim was a bit off.”
D&D: “haha, Edmure is dumb.”
@@KaaptnIglo I don't really think format is relevant to characterization. Aerys, Rhaegar and Lyanna are never seen, yet their shadow looms large over the setting through the characters that were affected by them. Doing that on a smaller scale with Tyrion through his side conversations with Shae (while also showing the toxicity of the relationship), could have easily elucidated Tyrion's brokenness and need for genuine love.
Ultimately, I think they changed Tyrion because they wanted to change the direction of his character arc. They saw a fun, interesting character that they liked, and they wanted to take him in a different direction. That's not an implicitly bad thing in itself: adaptations shift character roles all the time, and sometimes that can lead to interesting new takes.
But it behooves you as the adapter, when making such choices, to have a plan which accommodates the changes you've made. D&D clearly did not, which is why I assert they did not understand them. If they understood them, then they would have realized the changes to the plot that would have been required.
Instead, Tyrion became a well-intentioned dunce, Cersei got a galaxy-brain and somehow becomes a ruling Queen, Euron turns into Great Value Jack Sparrow, Varys and Littlefinger become utterly irrelevant and race to see who can get executed by their liege first, Jon Snow becomes a simp, and the Wildlings decide they liked semi-arctic conditions after all.
They did not have a plan. Because they did not understand the characters. Because they aren't actually good story writers. They can improve on existing material (case in point, Arya/Tywin's scenes). But they didn't actually know how to craft long-running plots, a part of which requires intimate understanding of your characters, their motivations, and how they propel the plot forward.
I realize this probably comes across as super aggressive, so I apologize if I sound antagonistic towards you personally. I'm just venting generalized frustration.
i just realized how fucked up it is that dany named her golden dragon after her brother who was killed by having molten gold poured over his head… lol
He was complicated lol
At some level she did love or care for her brother enough to honor him by having a dragon be named after him. In a way he lives on as a dragon like he wanted.
@@viceb7 lmao, that he was
Holy mother of God.
1 hour long character analysis on the best character.
oh boy, yeah.
This is nothing, did you hear the guy “alt schwift x” rap about tyrion? He pretty much told the same content with more depth and bigger bars
Overrated he is not even top5 :D
@@Danio31b1991 dumb send ur list
I'm convinced the only reason Alt takes so long between uploads is because he rereads all the books every time he wants to make a video.
Ik you meant it as a joke,but i think you actually may be right. Ive read the books quite a few times and ive never picked up on quite a few of the stories mentioned here. Maybe its just me,and i did a terrible job at analyzing,but i never thought that tywin actually frequented whores. I never realized that tyrion was such a dark character. I knew that he had a lot of issues that had been brewing since childhood,but i only saw him as a slightly villainous character from the start of the a dance with dragons. I always pride myself on knowing nearly everything in the books, these vids reveal how little i know. Or maybe the world of ice and fire is so expansive that he actually reads it every time he makes a video on a certain topic/character
@@niranjanrajesh1058 I mean he could read all the Tyrion chapters instead of the whole thing
I love how many details there are in these books, hidden amongst the sheer length and massive cast of characters. Like the sailors wife potentially being Tysha, it's a very subtle hint and I've read these books countless times and never picked up on it. This channel really pays attention to every single word.
@@niranjanrajesh1058 The way he picks up seemingly unrelated details from the subtlest of lines... he might just.
He literally cites the chapter for all the dozens/hundreds of the quotes in this video, so there's clearly some level of rereading going on.
Dragons. Old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you, a small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all.
"he uses jokes and irony as a shield, to deflect the hurt of rejection"
lmao same
Felt that
More people need to realize how badly David and Dan neutered the character of Tyrion.
More people need to realize how badly D&D neutered the entire show/source material in general.. Like it's even worse than most people think it is, most think the show went to shit at Season 6/7, in reality D&D's stinky-smelly-bullshit is visible even in S2..
@@CommanderLongJohn Yeah lol, in the earlier seasons, they had the books to just copy off of, and GRRM had a lot of input then too, he even wrote some episodes himself. The show was able to be good despite D&D and was only bad when D&D chose to streamline storylines and whenever they felt like writing additional bullshit.
When the books ended, and D&D were too proud, arrogant, or retarded, to ask for GRRM's help beyond "How do you think the story ends?", the show took a huge nosedive after S6. From what I heard, GRRM wanted more input in the show, and he wanted the show to go on longer, but D&D told him to fuck off pretty much because "We have a Star Wars to go ruin." And we got the trainwreck of pure rushed D&D writing in S8, with no input from anyone else.
I hope D&D never write anything again, ever.
@@CommanderLongJohn Yep. Red flags were there in the earlier seasons. More people need to know that.
@@CommanderLongJohn Yeah, for sure. Was still a watchable show in the early seasons, but it really does pale in comparison to the books on almost every level.
Not the fault of the actors or crew - it was purely poor writing decisions and lack of caring. I managed to shrug it off for season after season, but Barristan being killed off really was the first unforgivable choice they made - even the actor was appalled at being written out like that!
@@andromidius it’s such a damn shame for all the actors and other crew members. Pouring out you heart, souls and effort in giving a great performance and beautiful visuals and soundtrack and it all goes down the drain thanks to shitty writers.
the problem Tyrion has at the trial is that NOT ONLY does he have his enemies and Cersei's minions lying on him. He also has honorable men who tell the truth that yes 1) Tyrion struck Joffrey 2) Tyrion argued with the king 3) Tyrion threatened the king. Balon Swann and Garlan Tyrell don't lie at the trial, what they say is the truth. A very inconvenient truth for Tyrion but the truth.
i'd also like to add that the moment he's sentenced to death, is when he lost the thing that gives him power, his status as a nobleman. Sure, he's witty, but wit doesn't matter if people don't care what you say from the jump.
When you read the books your drip fed all this intrigue and its hard to take the account of one characters story and really analyze it while your going from POV to POV. But with a video essay like this you really get to see the fucking remarkable web of trauma, emotions, politics, and relationships that Martin has created in his books for just one group of characters.
It all feels real, every one of the Lannister's does fucked up things for real reasons connecting back to their childhoods, fears, and desires. I know I don't have to sing the praises here but it's just impressive when put into this format. Really nice video.
season 7 and 8 was beyond garbage
not even spinoff or prequel wont help
Agreed. I love the books and even though they're amazing, a lot of times it's hard to understand why characters are acting this way. I love analyses like these because they clearly explain everything.
in a way i can now understand why the book takes so long to write.
@@bennify1 I can only imagine how much of a mess GRRM office is. How does one even keep track of so many plots at one time?
@@aniquinstark4347 I Imagine that GRRM's entire house is one big conspiracy wall, with every surface covered with plotlines, subplots, sub-subplots, character arcs, character histories, family trees, etc, with one small table and laptop for writing hidden somewhere in the middle of it all.
this actually explains a lot that happened in the show to me. the more the Show diverged from the Novels, the Worse that these characters became. because then the writers had to come up with character-development on their OWN to show what the Show-Version of Tyrion was becoming vs the Novel-Version... and that's when everyone realized the Show-Writers simply could not write...
it definitely explains the turning-point of Tyrion better to me, after he kills Tywin. never read the novels and was disappointed at how he became so useless and brooding after that moment in the show. but it makes sense now. his character was ACTUALLY fated to become a total bastard who wished to watch the world burn... but the Show Directors wanted to to a total 180 from that fate because they had built such a beloved tragic-hero character already with Dinklage's superb acting because TV ratings. so they literally had to try and re-do his character from scratch at that point and simply couldnt match up to the writing of an actual book author in terms of character-development
You hit the mail right in the head. Tv shows always turn the bad guys into a livable hero like you said because of the great acting as well as trying to please the audience. I call it the Fonzy effect.
Yeah, it's not just Tyrion. Once they started to ran out of the books they were somewhat forced to make changes to simplify the plot. In S5 and S6 they butchered multiple storylines such as Stannis and North, Dorne; and the Tyrells and High Sparrow to keep the focus on 'main' characters. They also had to quickly change Jon and Daenerys in order to bring them into 'main' conflict. All of this would be fine if it weren't done with complete disregard for the characters themselves. S7 and S8 were just a poor attempt to make sense out of the bad decisions made before and a huge fan service.
@@RudolfHorvath The fact that they were rushing towards the end certainly didn’t help. They cut out SO much from the books it’s almost fascinating. I mean look what they did to Euron!
@@stingerjohnny9951 Oh yeah... I totally forgot about him. Thanks for pointing that out.
@@stingerjohnny9951 To me that's not Euron it was the wih version of Ramsey with no teeth. I'm so mad about how they completely deleted Dorne. ESPECIALLY with such talented actors like Pedro Pascal who opened the door in such a great fashion.
Tyrion resents Penny because Penny leans into everything about being a dwarf that his father taught him to hate... but Penny always had family who loved her.
in essence, he hates her because on some level he wishes he was her but he ISN'T and he will NEVER be and so hates her
Yeah, she's basically a foil in everything but stature
Tyrion is the perfect example of what happens when people stop believing in what they can be, and start seeing what everyone else sees in them instead.
They look at Tyrion and see a kinslaying, drunken, lecherous, morally devoid monster? So be it then.
"I wish I *was* the monster you all think I am"
Man, I was so ready for Season 5, Punished Tyrion after that line
Instead,well...
That was full of truth
You could say that Jaime becomes the opposite after Harrenhall
No, it doesn't work like that, you need positive feedback to be good and do good things. If the world is against you it means they want it to be like that, they don't want a dwarf to be good then why push it?
Opposite for Jaime, too. Believed the hate placed on him as the Kingslayer made him irredeemable. After meeting Briene, who defies the expectations placed on women, and the loss of his one pride (his swordhand). He then removes Cersei from his life, he moves to end the Riverland conflict without bloodshed, and he works to be compassionate to smallfolk he previously sneered at.
It should be noted that GRRM has pulled a master stroke of prose. Tyrion and Jaime start at way different places to readers (well, in my experience!) who loved Tyrion and despised Jaime - yet as the story goes on we grow to love Jaime as he crawls out of his apathy and turn a bit sour on Tyrion as he slides down into petty cruelty. I so wonder how this probably tragic tale of two brothers will end.
Except Jaimes arc is obvious
I wasn’t even aware of this darker interpretation of Tyrion’s story until watching this video. It’s a great video, but it picks and chooses a little to reinforce its point. Tyrion is still better than 99% of characters in this world
@@archivesoffantasy5560 exactly my thoughts. I agreed ultimately that he will prob end up killin his bro ☹️
@@archivesoffantasy5560 book tyrion is so so fleshed out i love it he's probably one of my fav characters along with cersei but tv tyrion is probably one of my most hated characters along with arya and jon they make him so stupid and though he's not as clever as he thinks he is in the id rather have evil tyrion over his stupid version
Tragic ending incoming. Reading Jaime go from 'Kingslayer' to 'Goldenhand the Just'. Reading his POV's and how much better he has become as a person (Keeping his promise to Catelyn, doing justice, being less apathetic) is sad knowing that Tyrion is out there, stewing with rage and on his way back to Westeros.
@@archivesoffantasy5560 No, no he's not... the subjective structure of the book tricks the reader (and obviously D&D) but Tyrion does horrible things even in the first seasons/books. Just ask Symon Silver Tongue...
If you think about it, Tyrion had a surprisingly decent relationship with all his relatives except his father and sister.
It’s also very telling that those relatives worship the very ground that Tywin walks on.
Remember, Uncle Kevan was there when Tywin sent his son out to die and was the one to tell Tyrion to trust Tywin, and look how that turned out.
And his nephew J
And kind of his nephew T
And did his niece like being sent away ?
@@emilchurchin4874 to Myrcella’s credit, she was trying to keep a brave face.
@@emilchurchin4874What would Tommen have against him?
@@Nai-qk4vp I’m simply saying I don’t recall him having a good relationship with the young ones in reply to the comment
The most profound thing about Tyrion is from Genna Lannister when she’s speaking with Jamie;
“he left a son”
“That is what I fear the most in truth”
“Tyrion is tywins son, not you.”
So telling considering Gennas conflicted feelings towards Tywin
That was one of the most memorable chapters from a ”feast for crows”, still remember that exchange between Jaime and Genna years later.
I haven’t been this thrilled for a GoT content ever since the disaster of season 8. Watching this made me fall in love with GoT all over again. Thank you so much Alt Shift! Please make more detailed videos like this for every major character (or House)of the story.
HBO should have definitely hired Alt Shift in the writing team for the upcoming prequel series House of Dragons. No one (besides Martin) knows the ASOIAF better than Alt Shift!
I second this, this is one of the most detailed and interesting ASOIAF videos I’ve ever watched and there are many main characters that need exploring and speculation.
Same. This video made me reread the books. I really had forgotten how good the characters and story are. Also I got so much more out of it than the first time I read them/watched the show
@@ceg496 I think they messed up Sansa too. That line about how she's glad she was raped and abused (????????) pretty much sums up how little they understand the character
@@ceg496 and about that change I can't shake the feeling that they did it just because sansas actress turned 18 around that time and they could do the rape scene for shock value and as a cheap way to move the battle of the bastards plot forward. Also her Vale plot in the books is way more interesting and more in line with her outsmarting littlefinger and making allies in the north
- How many psychological disorders will the Lannisters going to have?
- George: YES!
Thank you for reminding me what a remarkable writer GRRM is. The terrible ending blinded me to that, this video reminded me of just how much we still have to look forward to in the books.
Now he just needs to finish them.
no shot he finishes them I am so sorry
@@honeynutreviews332 yea, he's gonna kick the bucket before Dream of Spring is done
heck, maybe even before Winds
I am pretty sure Daenerys is gonna end up bad in the books too.
But the ending will be certainly better than what we got
Aaand he's gone.
Aaand he's gone.
I think that the reason GRRM makes Tyrion seem like he could be a Targaryan (eventhough he's not) is to give Tywin something to attach his denial to and justify his doubts. If he had nothing but Lannister characteristics there would be no doubt about who Tyrion's father is and Tywin had no choice but to accept him.
Even with Lannister features, that doubt could persist. Joanna was a Lannister by blood and Tywin's first cousin.
The targaryens, like the lannisters, practiced incestuous marriages as well. Even viserion tries to rape danaerys in the books iirc, so tyrions deformity could still very well be from inbreeding even as a targaryen.
Medieval monarchy their all inbreed
Like it’s noted in the video Tyrion is Tywin writt small, it would ruin the connection with Tywin. They are the same characters, his son.
Tyrion’s biological parents don’t come into it for me. The narrative surrounding Tyrion and Tywin is just as compelling blood relation or not. It doesn’t take a shared mitochondria for me to find it tragic
Sometimes I think about how Peter Dinklage once said that he enjoyed playing Tyrion because the character was rich in depth and layers, so much unlike the one-dimensional caricatures that actors with dwarfism are often hired to portray. Then I think about how David and Dan gradually reduced Tyrion to a one-dimensional caricature during the last few seasons of the show. And then I get very, very angry.
The writers ran out of good plot and good lines for Tyrion--those written by George R R Martin--and couldn't think of any themselves.
Everyone is asking "Who the real Tyrion?" But no one asks "Where do courtesans with low social responsibility go?"
Oh ho ho, well played
Down. They go down.
if you learn please tell tyrion asap
A Nunnery, It's a riff on Shakespeare; so whorehouse or Sept.
Okay but can you tell me who was in Paris?
The character deep dives, book-by-book with breakdowns is exactly what I need for every character. This was such a great video that put so many ideas together in my head. More please!!
I really wanted to see "evil" tyrion. It would have really given dinklage something to chew on. After that trial scene I was waiting with so much anticipation to see this great actor givin a complex storyline that would challenge the audience that loved him, and then they threw it away and gave him nothing but stupidity 😔
was so mad they just turned him into a bumbling idiot
Would love to see it too. It would subvert our expectations big time, from a Lannister who is supposed to be different from the other Lannisters (who are evil) to the evilest Lannister of them all.
I agree with this, but I will say that I am not one of those people that hails the books as the only way his story should've or could've been told. After season four I definitely think that D&D could've found different ways to take Tyrion down that darker path,. even if it didn't happen exactly how it did in the books. I also wasn't that crazy about his storyline in A Dance With Dragons, because he doesn't really do that much but be melancholy and ask where whores go. But overall the more hopeless, resentfful side of him was embraced in the books much more than in the show. There's also the fact that, book Tyrion's story isn't over. Sure he's on the war path now, but will he stay on it? It's not as simple as the video kind of makes it seem. Book Tyrion is a little more conflicted, at least about Jaime, in terms of revenge. That could be something that makes him rethink whatever plans he has. Something will only know when TWOW, finally comes out.
@@nont18411 I wouldn't say he had zero development, but it the writing for TV Tyrion definitely lost it's complexity after season 4.
I don't see book Tyrion as evil. Just spiteful and lashing out.
Unless Winds of Winter has already come out and I just missed it.. (?)
Book Tyrion: deeply flawed, complex, have a tendency to do harm even though he has a good heart, were more like his father, have an interesting plot about finding his lost love, met some interesting people, still being witty, have a desire to bring chaos to westeros
Season 8 Tyrion: "V A R Y S NO COCK"
I DRINK AND I KNOW THINGS
The book character has not been given an ending and it's really quite pathetic to be this reductionist about the show's version of the character just because you're unable to live with adaptation changes.
@@Regenmacher175 Well, they're terrible changes, so there's that.
Video: Jaime: loses hand
Cercei: her image
Tyrion: maybe his tongue
Varys:
@@Regenmacher175 Temple OS
Peter dinklage: "by the gods, Tyrion was smart back then"
0
Still read it in Robert's voice
He was very intelligent, or at least much more intelligent than what he became later in the TV series, but Tyrion also wasn't that wise and he had certain weaknesses that became his downfall despite all his smarts.
Bobby B agrees
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So, on the one hand, the show-runners made Tywin an extremely popular character with their slight revisions to the character to make him more sympathetic. On the other hand, they deeply missed (or intentionally distorted) the point that Tywin is "full of shit". This is a common theme in the depictions of Tywin in the books. When Tywin approaches Joffrey after the battle of the Blackwater, Tywin's horse drops poop all across the floor. Tywin dies on a privy, finally releasing all of his shit. At his funeral, barely anyone can tolerate being there because his corpse reeks horribly. After the funeral, it's commented that a general rain has cleared the air and made it smell better. Tywin was full of shit, and the world is a better place now that he's dead and buried.
Unfortunately, Tyrion (and Cersei) absorbed all of Tywin's worst lessions.
I love this explanation. Tywin WAS full of shit!
They cutted the hardest edges, those details in the books that makes you really hates him (like, after the battle with him talking with Tyrion. Tyrion says to be forgiving with Joffrey out of "Youth follies", and Tywin goes "then i should be grateful he hasn't yet married a whore.") Those minor and big things, cutted of, makes Tywin less cruel and hateful, kind of "censuring" the greatest ahole of westeros.
What truly skyrocketed tywin's overall popularity in the show was his relationship with Arya Stark, or at least that is my guess. There are a lot of villains and characters in media and literature who fit a similar archetype but not many done as well as him, especially how George RR Martin portrays him in the books is absolutely spectacular. The best thing to do with a marketable villain, place That character in close proximity with someone who wants to kill them through a thin veil of ignorance. It's quite genius really.
Do you know, how Ilyn Payne lost he's tongue?
@@OugiEin No, what TRULY rocketed Tywin's popularity in the show is Charles Dance's amazing performance. If you put Tywin in the hands of a lesser actor he wouldn't have been nearly as popular. Tywin (both in the show and the books) is a character who overplays a hand that has long run out of cards and expertly hides that fact. His money and power are gone, but he continues to act and play the Game of Thrones as though they are still there and Charles Dance perfectly portrays Tywin with the gravitas of the man with all his former power and wealth and allows no one to dare question whether he could use it.
“No punchline, no payoff” describes the entire finale
"He spent the last few seasons looking sad and helpless." We know how he feels and that sums up the finale of the show very well.
seeing it again out of context, I thought this was talking about Peter Dinklage.
Really excellent take. Tyrion is generally portrayed as sympathetic, but antiheroes are never satisfactory if they aren’t sympathetic.
"When he talks shit, he gets hit".
Such poetry.
So basically, Tyrion is the Griffith of Westeros.Yep, he's totally gonna burn down KL.
*Cut to Jaime Lannister the 'Black Swordsman', replacing his missing hand with a literal cannon and using a slab of metal as his personal greatsword.*
TBH its enough for the someone in King landing capture and to force a friend of Daenerys to be put on some public shaming and hurt/killed by the ppl there will be enough for Danny to burn the shit out of the whole city and will be justified plenty of it
And just like Griffith, Tyrion did nothing wrong
Why would you spoilers berserk here on got video?
Not even fucking close , from background , to motivations to actual subtleties in his character , not to mention Griffith does not have a tenth of the good qualities of Tyrion.
Griffith is born dirt poor , Tyrion is born into the wealthiest family of the continent , Griffith's charisma defines him and people worship him , Tyrion gets no respect because people in Westeros are cunts against those with dwarfism , Griffith is a frontline general as well as a strategist , brawns with a lot of brain but the former is more proeminent while Tyrion while certainly very brave in combat and trained in arms in so far as his handicap and its social implications hinder it , is a politician and bookworm first and foremost. Their fall from grace is also very different as Griffith had begun to deliberately distance himself and shutting off his empathy for his comrades because he erroneously believed it was the only way not to crumble under the blood spilled and the bodies of those who died for his dream , which led to him begining to see them less as individuals and more as solely assets. When Griffith sacrifices them in the Eclipse it is not a pure act of despair but a simple , cold , logical(his twisted logic) step to ensure his objectives. Tyrion's fall from grace occurs very differently and especially where he has a part is him trying to emulate his father and indulding in the petty violences that he erroneously believed would make him feel better and earn Tywin's approval which only served to further the view of those cunts who alraedy hated him anyway of the evil , scheming , lustful dwarf. Tyrion may yet find new purpose and help save the world from the Others, Griffith is fully undone and cares nothing but for power. Not to mention Griffith has killed more innocents than Tyrion ever has. No , his father's acts on the Riverlands are on him , not Tyrion even if his support of his father's acts is condemnable. Griffith literally opened the world for demons to plunder it.
And perhaps I'll have to reread the books again but that prostitute did offer herself to fuck him , even if she didn't take pleasure from it , didn't she? Unlike Casca.
Not a good comparison. Not one bit.
I really love the way you use the Bergolts piece to keep the image of book Tyrion firmly in the foreground of our minds. I always struggled imagining book Tyrion as he was described because I was a show watcher first but now, I think that's changed
"A singer blackmails Tyrion, so Tyrion has him killed and made into soup" is a pretty good summary of his character
Oh my god, Tyrion is Cartman!
You forgot the part where Tyrion tells the singer that he doesn't care to hear the song ever again, and then later he regrets not learning the full song.
For hands of gold are always cold, but a woman's hands are warm...
And that singer is supposed to be Ed Sheeran’s character in the show
I have watched this at least 5 times. Thank you for your effort and for bringing such quality content for us all to enjoy!
waiting for the real jon snow too? lol
@@rolandluth2098 I sure am!!! :P lol
Sometimes I think it would be karmic justice for Tyrion to be Tywins only real child, and that Jaimie and Cersei are actually the bastards of Aerys which could also make sense considering twins run in the dragon bloodline and incest. Cersei also has that mad king side to her.
Shit, that'd be good!
@@kalashnikovdevil I really thought that would eventually somehow be revealed at least to the reader.
I do want Tyrion to be a Dragon or at least bond and ride one considering his dragon obsession & his dreams, the fact that his eyes are miscolored, the fact everyone claimed he was a monster when he was born like Danys baby.
But it would be karmic justice to Tywin that his only true born son was the one he hated, had the love of his life gang raped, & tried having killed.
But then again Tywin is dead so we wouldn’t get to see him find out, but sometimes I feel he fears that could be the case deep down, which made him loathe Tyrion even more.
When Tyrion says I am your son, maybe at that moment Tywin realized the truth he always tried denying, that his incest twins were actually Targaryen and the little demon he hates is his little demon.
Tyrion does have traits of Tywin but that could also be from growing up with him.
Let’s just hope GRRM cuts out his celebrity parties and gets to finishing.
I for one am tired of his excuses because he never seems to just focus on writing the rest of the series. I think the limelight has really affected him and he just can’t get enough of it.
He was a lonely dork his whole life, and instantly becomes a celebrity and cool when Game of Thrones series hits HBO. Anyone would fall to it like he has so I’m not saying he’s a bad guy or weak for it. Hell I used to be semi famous and it got to my head and I wasn’t even close to GRRM or even the least famous celebrities so I don’t blame him but it’s been years now, you’d think he’d learn.
Not took me about two years to learn I was enjoying my time with “famous people” too much and that none of the ppl around me have a damn about me they just wanted to be around because they thought I was about to really take off.
When I didn’t they all disappeared. I wish GRTM would learn this lesson and get back to his books.
Sorry for the long rant lol
It's also ironic that all three of tywins children are the product of incest since they the children of tywins cousin so tyrion being a dwarf is tywins fault as is his two twins just keeping it in the family like their old man.
Except the gene that results in fraternal twins can only be expressed in women. (I don't know it it can be carried by men, but he definitely will not father twins as a result of it) because the gene relates to the frequency with which multiple eggs are released at the same time. the probability of Identical twins is not dependent on genetics at all.
@@essimathews9056 I didn’t know that but this is a fantasy book series so idk if all of that us put into account for the story.
Either way I hope we get to read WOW soon
Tyrion being called Lord Tywins Doom, making him a multilayered self fulfilling prophecy is why I like the series so much.
It's also a clue about Tyrion being a Motley symbol of "the Doom" of Valyairia. Lannister as a slave since Lannisters sold slaves for gold, since their gold mines are a lie. Gerion was sent to reopen the Targaryen mines to get gold, Brightflame was a ruse. The Targaryens were too greed and dug too deeply aka Dwarves/LOTR and Kryton/Superman.
@@mistermaestersirthomas9164 okay, so how were the Lannisters slavers?
@@maxgrozema1093 they sold the slaves Targaryens used to mine to the for gold that the Lannisters claimed came from their mines. When the doom happened the Lannisters had to live off the gold they already had and debt scemes, hence "a Lannister always pay debts"; I mean if you have a gold mine, why go into debt unless you don't have a gold mine.
@@mistermaestersirthomas9164 but the Lannisters never got into debt?
@@maxgrozema1093 then why have a saying that they do?
Tywins character is some seriously good writing from George about trauma and the cycle of abuse
Say it louder for the Pro-Tywin-ers in the back.
@@catherinecao4810b-b-but Tywin is so cool and smart he’s literally me!!
@@gudboah4688you’re a child abuser who killed entire families and commissioned a song about it to feel badass?
Please note the sarcasm.
How is any of that cool or smart?
@@gudboah4688I hate when people idolize Tywin. Justice for Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon
The whole Lannister family is like a portrait of generational trauma.
Please do more of “The real” GOT characters. Please do that for Stannis because he is not as much as a straight villain as I try ought him to be since i’ve been listening to the audiobooks.
I'd want "the real" tragedy of Jeyne Poole. That poor girl has been through some shit hidden from the eyes of the reader
@@trevinwolverine1904 I wish that he’d do more character development videos but it probably takes a lot of time
Stannis the mannis the king who cared
I disagree, but I think it's really interesting how Stannis gets this response so much. I think it's because we only directly see him through the eyes of people who will make excuses for him like Davos or his Maester
@@chadfarrell5457Asha and Theon Greyjoy and Jon Snow make excuses for him? You didn’t read A Dance with Dragons
Your ability to collate and present all of this information in such a linear and connected fashion is absolute brilliance. You really are impressive - well done!
Maybe it’s just me, but I honestly find the villainous Tyrion in the books more sympathetic and generally compelling than the righteously framed Tyrion of the show. His actions and moral inconsistency repeatedly confused and angered me, he never felt morally gray in the way many other characters did… he felt sloppily written and too easily forgiven by the writers when he would display cruelty and treason and the show presented it as just in whatever convoluted sense
Like it could've made more sense why Dany destroys westeros and and wants to kill his family
Wrong
Agreed!!
I wouldn’t say sympathetic, because honestly at this point he’s just repulsive to me, but Tyrion in the books is certainly written far better.
Tyrion isn't sympathetic you're insane. He literally rapes a woman.
Thinking about it, I think the biggest gut punch Tyrion could ever find isn’t Tysha being a whore, but her being married to someone else with a family and happy. At least that’s what I would write. Imagine Tyrion finds where whores go and it’s that they go make themselves a home with a person they really care about. They move on and live their lives. Not only would it be powerful for Tysha herself- continuing on despite her abuse at the hand of a noble and still finding love and meaning in the aftermath of a cruel circumstance- but it would crush Tyrion’s hope for being with her. She found someone else, move on from him, and no longer cares about him. Worse than not loving him, she did love him and now loves someone over him. He was replaced. That would send him truly spiraling I think
That would be truly tragic but deserving for Book Tyrion.
I think that would push him off the despair event horizon and make him an irreversibly evil monster.
Edit: Granted, he's already done some pretty evil things by the start of WoW, but he could go full-blown Tywin.
@@concept5631On the contrary, I think that would actually knock some sense into him. Seeing his greatest love move on and find another will hurt him deeply but hopefully that would also inspire him to see that he can take that path too. That no matter how broken a person can be, they can always find happiness eventually which Penny could provide for him.
@@obseed3041 I think its like a coin toss. He could go either way.
@@concept5631 well he is a suspected Targaryen and they’re a coin toss at birth 🤷♂️🤣
16:29 'The Starks and Tully's and Stannis don't wage war like that.' They come pretty damn close. Stannis at one point almost has an entire island full of people exterminated for money and retribution until Davos talks him out of it. Robb pillages the Westerlands, though not Casterly Rock or Lannisport, which the Lannisters own and are well defended, but instead he sends out vengeful, violent Rickard Karstark to raid along the cost and he sieges other castles. He gives Roose Bolton a position of command in the Riverlands and when Roose captures Harrenhall the cruelty there goes on unchanged. In the Riverlands we see villages burnt down now and in the past by "lions", "wolves", bandits and one that was burned down by Hoster Tully back in the day. The peasants can often hardly tell who is who, and it makes little difference to them. Tywin is worse than Stannis and Robb but its a matter of degree. There is no moral way to play the game of thrones.
it was Axell Florent's idea to burn Claw Isle and Stannis didn't agree to it or give the order even before Davos arrived . He's the only one who thinks of the human cost when fighting and doesn't target smallfolk.
@@terryjav1 That is indeed how it happened, but Stannis was quite seriously considering it. Davos thinks of the human cost. Stannis thinks in terms of honor and duty and that might elevate him slightly above some of his enemies, but he's also harsh and resentful, unable to communicate without death threats and willing to sacrifice others (eg Edric Storm) for his cause. I've seen no evidence that he cares particularly about the smallfolk or is that principled in not targeting them. He also employs a whole range of pirates, fanatics, bigots, sadists and other scumbags. Had he won the battle of the blackwater or occupied hostile territory the results would not have been that different from what Robb and Tywin did to the Westerlands and Riverlands. That he hasn't done any of that is because his story hasn't really been about war and its horrors as much as Robb and Tywin and their war has been. I personally think his downfall will be more personal and more related to his sinister magic and kinslaying and selling his soul to the devil, I mean fire and shadow god.
That's one of my favorite parts of Arya's journey in the Riverlands. The whole way through it's a personal, intimate look at the horrors of war, but at first it's only the Lannisters that are committing atrocities. Arya's journey begins in the Crownlands, for much of ACOK she is well behind Lannister lines. We see refugees, burned villages, Amory Lorch and the Mountain's cruelty, and it serves to stoke our hate for the Lannisters after what they did to Ned and cheer on our hero Robb. And then, as Arya is in her darkest place yet while suffering Harrenhal, the northmen arrive to save the day! ... But it's Roose Bolton lol. Nothing changes. Then throughout the next book, as Arya travels through the heart of the Riverlands and nearer the front, she gets to see the atrocities the wolves have committed too. Both she and the reader are left very uncomfortable.
@@Evilanious Stannis wasn’t considering it
@@Evilanious i haven't read the books in a while but as far as I'm aware he did geld some of his men for abusing wildling women when he attacked Mance Rayder. When he was going to sacrifice Edric (im not supporting that) it wasnt just for him, he's also thinking of the greater good and all the other kids that would die if he didnt do what's necessary.
If he took King's landing there wouldn't be any of the unnecessary violence on a large scale because again he's a fair ruler and his men fear the law, unlike Lannisters who destroyed and killed scot free.
And for his magic, Renly was going to kill him and usurp his throne so was it really that bad? He hasn't abused it in a malicious way like Euron and he did not sell his soul, otherwise he would've burned a lot more people. And the people he did burn were all guilty so can't say he was in the wrong.
What can you do if you are stressed but turn people into soup... Tyrion is such a relatable character...
i'd eat singer stew
I worked with Tywin Lannister (Charles Dance) on a couple of films, he was a gentleman and a marvellous actor to watch on set. Humble and friendly, a real pleasure to work with.
So he is the complete opposite of the character he plays lmao
Sure bud
@@harounfarhani2138most actors are nothing like their characters…
@@witchplease9695 that really depends, but most of the time you are most definitely correct.
@@witchplease9695 I mean, imagine being like Geoffrey and there are humans who are. His actor was however the complete opposite in real life.
OMG! The man himself is back!!! Welcome back, Alt!
His wealth, not his tongue, is what makes Tyrion able to speak the way he does, he loses that like Jaime lost his hand and Cersei her children
Well, his wealth and his name. And when he killed Tywin, he lost both.
I know right, buying his way out of every problem and pretending your clever. 1percenter goals
Although the show ended at a disappointing payoff, this all went tragic in a poetic sense.
@@kahlilcrawley5156 Like what the former president did with the actual presidency.
Exactly; he only appears disadvantaged because most of the show's/book's characters are nobles
“because of his ugly appearance people are prejudiced against him”
We have the same problem Tyrion, my man
Personally, I really dislike the "Lannisters are secret Targaryens" theories.
Yeah. Defeats the whole point of the Lannister family as this mafia like group that hate each other but all work together to defeat enemies because they have to (in early seasons). If they're secret Targaryens then its just...one lannister guy and these other weirdos.
I think the reasons the Lannisters were secret Targaryens is because Cersei and Jaime tried to copy off the Targaryens by secretly marrying and having kids. Just like the Targaryens had been doing for years. Brothers marrying sisters, cousins marrying cousins, nephews marrying aunts, ect, ect.
I think Tyrion would be the only perfect fit for being a secret Targaryen (aside from Jon) just so that the Dynasty Tywin wanted so much is crumbling to nothing
I agree completly. I mean, one secret Targaryan is great, two is alright, but every single charakter beeing a secret Targaryan is just too much
@@elonif4125 John and Tyrion. Two.
If George ever finished the books, I could actually see the show-ending unfold with Tyrion being the one to burn the city, betraying Danny's trust and completing his gradual descent from the man he thought he was to what everyone expected him to be; a grotesque monster. It would certainly make more sense than Danny losing her head and burning. The city for no clear reason
It would've make more sense if Tyrion will be the one who directly causes King's Landing's burning with Viserion instead of Daenerys in the books!
Haha I love how they made all the Dany fans cry because they couldn't accept anything except a fairy tale feminist dream ending for her. That's the only good thing about the last season.
@@sayuas4293 actually nop. Was completle out of character at that point for her to do what she did in the show :v. It's like You said that the chage of Jaimes character in the show was good XD. It couldd have been good if they would have developed her character to that point. But, that wasnt the case
@@sayuas4293 I don't think all fans were hoping for a "fairy tale ending" per se, just an ending that made sense. I'm not even against Danny becoming a mad Targaryen. But the way the show was written and rushed in the last season it really felt like the "mad queen" ending came out of nowhere because the showrunners didn't know how else to end it. And don't get me starting on the melting of the iron throne...
She's likely going to have some culpability, just not nearly to the extent of the show. As many others have speculated, Tyrion is going to push her to attack King's Landing harshly which will probably result in the wildfire caches going up. Giving Tyrion all the blame and absolving her would not only make him too black and her too white, it would ignore a lot of the other foreshadowing through the series. Having Tyrion deliberately destroy the city against her orders would, instead of being forced to confront her family's legacy, have the lesson be her realizing "Shit, I should never have trusted a Lannister".
I wish they'd made show Tyrion like his book counterpart so much, Dinklage would have fucking knocked it out the park...
I don't know that they could. In a novel, where you can read a person's thoughts, it's much easier to portray them committing heinous acts and still keep them somewhat sympathetic. To watch them commit those act in living color without access to their thoughts would make it much harder for the audience to sympathize. We react to visual stimuli much differently that verbal or written.
@@carlrood4457 Get him a mute prostitute to talk at like nuncle Vic.
It would've been incredible to see an Evil Tyrion in the show after Season 4, but we already know How D&D minds Works!
Tyrions courtroom speech would make so much more sense if he continued on this path, he had HATRED for those people but then goes on to do nothing but save them.
Ah, yes.
Analysis as sharp as Valyrian steel and just as well crafted.
Well done, Alt Shift X. Well done.
Only difference being Alt Shift X videos require less human sacrifice.
@@mtlacunae8659 are we 100% sure about that though?
There is irony in Tyrion losing his tongue and becoming a lion who can't roar.
I don’t think he’s a lion I think he’s a dragon! Because of the white hair and the wierd eye
@@sit-insforsithis1568
Think about how much that f*cks up the story between him and Tywin tho
Far better would be if Tyrion was Tywin’s *only* legitimate issue, Cersei and Jaime being the dragon spawn (I don’t really like this theory either, but it’s way more fitting)
@@warlordofbritannia Tywin kids are a total disappointment, Tywin failed as a father, failed as a friend to aerys the mad king, failed as a grandfather to the boy king joffery. But he was very successful as an administrator and politician. He hated his father for being both weak and stupid, he hated his life. If i were on Tywin position, i get that baby Tyrion thrown away to a cliff. Tywin a great political but a garbage legacy he left behind and crippled economy.
@@warlordofbritannia i dont mind it as a thematic contrast to Jon Snow. Both secret Targs, both outcasts but one raised by a loving and caring father and the other by cruel and sadistic father.
Sit-ins For sithis no that just ruins the story of him and Tywin.
I love the fact that "The Bloody Hand", the Braavosi play about the circumstances around the deaths of Robert and Joffrey, really captures Tyrion's character despite being written across the ocean without direct sources.
"The seven-faced god has cheated me. My noble sire, he made of purest gold, and gold he made my siblings, boy and girl. But I am formed of darker stuff, of bones and blood and clay, twisted into this rude shape you see before you.
Give me the cup, for I shall drink deep. And if it tastes of gold and lion's blood, so much the better. As I cannot be the hero, let me be the monster, and lesson them in fear in place of love."
It's also a fun play on Shakespeare's Richard III, which was something of a political propaganda piece, intended to smear the late Richard as a villain for posterity, which it did for hundreds of years! It's no coincidence that Richard III was part of the losing faction in the Wars or the Roses, which ASOIAF is loosely based around, and that Elizabeth I, who was Queen while Shakespeare was writing, (and something of a fan of his work), was descended from the winning faction. Also worth note is that the two families who started the wars were named Lancaster and York - sounds familiar, doesn't it?
I know that this is a very loose historical overview, with a lot of detail left out, but the parallels are still fun!
That, however, is not the whole truth. A part of Tyrion is what he became, the spiteful monster the world thought him to be, jealous of the easier love the others got on account of not being a deformed dwarf.
Another part is the one the world didn't get to see. His love for the rejects and the downtrodden, his willingness to only harm those who have wronged him, and not the innocent. His compassion towards those with an unlucky fate (for example Jon, sent to the wall, or Sansa, who lost all her family, was kept imprisoned by a monster and force to marry and bed one she didn't like).
Tyrion has a duality inside of him: the vengeful monster and the compassionate reject. Only a few characters have seen the latter, and even fewer care.
@@suleymanbabak1973 So true - he's such a wonderfully complex character. Too bad Peter Dinklage didn't have the opportunity to play the fully rounded Tyrion Lannister that we know from the books, it would have been a marvelous performance!
@@suleymanbabak1973 I mean....., by ADWD he's given up on that whole "not harming the innocent" thing. 😬
@@neuralmute "But I, that am not shaped for sportive tricks,
Nor made to court an amorous looking-glass;
I, that am rudely stamp’d, and want love’s majesty
To strut before a wanton ambling nymph;
...
And therefore, since I cannot prove a lover,
To entertain these fair well-spoken days,
I am determined to prove a villain
And hate the idle pleasures of these days."
It's a full-on nod to the Shakespearean influence on Tyrion's character, Martin really went for the "This play is my in-universe version of the play 'Richard III' in history" angle
I know the video is about Tyrion not the random slave girl in the brothel but it really rubs me the wrong way the way they changed that character in the show too. In the books this charchter really highlights the trauma of sexual slavery. This girl is already broken from years of abuse, Tyrion is just another in a long line and it shows in her description as 'dead' metaphorically.
In the show she's just like... okay with her lot I guess. Maybe not happy, but she's well-spoken, healthy, clean and seemingly at ease with her 'job', and in Tyrions case at least is portrayed as consenting. This would not be the reality for the vast majority of slaves, especially those forced into the sex trade.
The show doesn't just white wash Tyrion, they also whitewash the horror of sexual slavery, and I hate it.
@bottlife2407 🤡
Show runners wouldn't want such a realistic view of what sex work is. A lot of what they did and what brought them audience were sex scenes, usually involving sex workers/slaves, and it was always very "clean" so that ppl wouldn't be too turned off by it. That one slave girl was a slap of harsh reality right across Tyrion's face. He was a broken man taking advantage of broken women, and sometimes being part of what broke them too.
No one except you cares
@@OnceUponReddit you cared enough to comment mate. There's this thing where if you don't care about the same things as someone else you can just... move on with your day instead of being bitchy about it for no reason. You should try it.
Have a good one.
@@OnceUponReddit Doing a really good job showing how much you don't care by going out of your way to post a nothing comment.
This was thoroughly entertaining and a nice surprise. Will more characters get this same treatment!?!
hope so i love the lore n shit but i dont have time to sit and read the whole series, ive read the first but its a lot to catch up on and vids like this are dope
Why is GRRM so obsessed with incest? There's something seriously wrong with the guy.
@@jacobrothschild6153 maybe because the story takes place in a fantasy version of the middle ages and incest was a more common thing then?
@@DemonicMailman what about the lack of birth defects from all the inbreeding?
@@jacobrothschild6153 No its just for the sake of being edgy
Simple, Tyrion is neither a villain nor a hero, Tyrion is someone I think we would all become if we were treated the way he was and if we experienced the pain he did. Tyrion is honestly one of the best characters in the book, because unlike Jon who is clearly a hero type, or Cersei who is obviously a villain, Tyrion has both evils and goods, which is what every person no matter who you are has.
Agreed!
Anti-hero?
Absolutely
For most of us one outweighs the other?
@@ChangedMyNameFinally69 no good deed negates a bad, and no bad deed negates a good. Unless like you save someone's life and immediately murder them. That literally negates it. But you get what I mean. Does someone raping and murdering a minor get negated by them doing absolutely anything and everything they possibly could to better our species technologically and socially? I would hope not. We are all good and bad. Maybe one more oft than another, but we are both. It's not mutually exclusive
One note: I truly don’t believe Tywin ordered the death of Elia. The children yes, but he was too politically savvy to make an enemy of the Dornish because of a slight they had nothing to do with. He even explains to Tyrion that the reason Gregor killed her was because he didn’t tell him not to. At the time Gregor was still a teenager and it’s believable that Tywin underestimated his brutality.
I dunno, Tywin is a sadistic son of a bitch and there’s a theme of mothers going nuts after the death of their kids so maybe he was paranoid she would spearhead a revenge scheme
Tywin actually says as much to Tyrion in the books. He didn’t order Gregor Clegane kill Elia, but he also didn’t order him to spare her, indeed he doubted that he even mentioned Elia at all.
Elia slipped his mind because he was more concerned about the arrival of Ned Stark and the threat that Aerys might kill Jaime. He regards Elia’s death as ‘sheer folly’ and was disgusted by the rape. He explained that he didn’t fully realize what kind of beast Gregor was at the time.
Elia got what Cersei was supposed to have, so honestly I think he might have really done it while deciding that he could blame it on Gregor if the Dornish ended up wanting retribution - like Tyrion, Tywin was fond of revenge. Mind you Elia's kids were Doran and Oberyn's nephew and niece, so as to what was politically savvy even killing them could anger the Dornish, especially if Elia was supposed to be sent back to Dorne after that. And really, Tywin has a habbit of surrounding himself with complete freaks who do his bidding violently.
@@alicedeligny9240 I'm with you on this. Sparing Elia wouldn't do shit if he planned on killing the children anyway. Tywin is noted for not fighting unless he knows he can win. What would Dorne have done with no allies? Nothing, just like they did.
I have not read nor seen Game of Thrones, but this really does tell me an incredible story of a sad, little man.
absolute chad for watching 1 hour of character analysis of a story you don't know about lol
you should absolutely try reading the novels! they are beautifully written with complex character work like here that tackle multiple complex themes. And contain several different types of story, from tragic heroes to redeeming villains to epic action, cunning intelligent narratives, etc.
I have thought about it, then forgot about it, but I've been looking for a good book to get into recently so I probably will.
@@simbachvazo6530 yooo do keep me updated if you so can. And of course as what they all say, the novels get even better as they go along
Did you read the novels yet?
Tyrion didn't take the fur from Benjen - Benjen had offered a really scuffed fur to him, assuming he would refuse it because it was undignified, but Tyrion accepted it with a comment like "Lannisters take what is offered.".
I rlly hope if he does another one of these character analysis it’s on Daenerys, mainly cause I feel analysis and breakdowns of John Snow and his future are always done constantly. Out of the three “main characters” of the books I believe Daenerys gets the least attention and I would want to see how she is in the books compared to the show while also possibly growing more fond of the character in general
I personally really like her in the books, she cools it on the “YA QUEEN!” badass speak and talks like a human, even when she’s slowly losing it in ADWD
God yes. Especially since D&D left her charcter completely butchered in the show. A good, thorough, text-based deep dive to clear up all the gross misconceptions of her character from the show version would be so refreshing.
people talk about these 3 all the time, bring some analysys on the likes of robb, ned, stannis and so on
@@aesir1ases64 Not even them, people such as Euron, Lord of Hightower , Barristen Selmy, Renly Baratheon & other ppl that are more sidelined
exactly, ADWD daenerys analysis would be great. I believe next hour+ video will be about Dany and fire and blood
FYI Richard the 3rd did actually have deformities. They found his remains a few years ago and found that he suffered from scoliosis.
When there is constant inbreeding within a family. They will almost always eventually end up having a ton of health issues and deformities. People who don't believe that he was deformed, or had some kind of issues with his health. Have obviously not done any research on the topic.
@@jamiebaker7066 The only reason it works for the Targaryens is because they have magic blood. And even then, half of the Targaryens are mad.
That said, deformities are only really common with pervasive generational incest, and there were likely folks amongst his family who looked normal or were healthy, so I could still see him being mistreated for being a hunchback and his condition being used as an excuse for his behavior.
@@stingerjohnny9951 depends on how pervasive the generational 'incest' was. While I've found no relation between Richard III's paternal great grandparents, his parents were something like second cousins once removed while his paternal grandparents were first cousins twice removed.
@@stingerjohnny9951 Also, scoliosis is not a cause of being a hunchback (that's kyphosis), and it was conclued that despite how dramatic it looked it could be concealed by clothing.
From what I've read (research based on accounts and portraits from his period, and then of course his remains), I think that the most likely version is that he had _some_ small but visible disfigurement which was later widely exaggerated by his victorious opponents as a terrible hunch for propaganda reasons. Most likely the truth, as always, lies somewhere between "a deformed monster" and "100% healthy".
I read the books as they came out year by year, and I never once considered Tyrion a villain. The show did paint him any better light, but honestly they painted everyone in a better light. Tywin was almost like a regular guy in the show, in the book he is absolutely a villain.
GRRM said Tyrion is a villain. He is a villain. There is no debate.
@@a.a677You know nuthin, John Snow.
How could you read the books and not think Tyrion a villain? That may speak to your morality?
@@dylanmartin6267 if i'm being 100% honest most of the characters of this series is pretty much a terrible person so i can't really blame Tyrion for going ballistic lol. How do you NOT expect someone like him to become a villain after all the stuff he went through? Most people irl lash out for way less
@@crimson19 Being a hero is better than being a villain, though. Choosing hate takes zero effort and harms yourself and others. Not choosing hate is what makes people a hero. After having a million reasons to hate, but choosing love instead. We don't admire Batman and Iron Man for their cool suits alone. On a more profound level, we admire them, because despite their parents being violently deleted, and them facing injustice at various points, and having reasons to be bitter, they choose love, and heroism, to seek to help and save people. It is almost tear-jerkingly admirable. Those emotions stir us as humans, because we, in our own lives, choose daily with our decisions, light or darkness. To be a hero in the story of our lives and the people around us, or to be a villain.
What a nice family.
I disagree about Slynt and Pycelle. That wasn't Tyrion trying to increase his own power for the sake of power, but because he figured out that both of them were puppets of his sister and he realized he had to strip Cersei of as much power as he could or else she and Joffrey would unintentionally sabotage their own rule with their cruelty and arrogance.
So in a way that was Tyrion trying to work for the greater good, and we do see that when he isn't emulating the cruelty of his father Tyrion can make a surprisingly good leader.
Imprisoning Pycelle always seemed odd to me. It's not a permanent solution. Surely someone would come and let Pycelle out eventually, he was well connected, he was the grand meister! So Tyrion imprisoning him was obviously going to backfire, as soon as Pycelle got out, Tyrion would have a powerful new enemy.
I agree. And that's the part of Tyrion that wins over Varis, who sees him as valuable asset for his plot. It's Varis who really saved Tyrion from execution. Jamie was just part of it.
I disagree. At best Tyrion is Machiavellian in rule. He does what has to be done. Which includes, making sure others don't undo you.
In the course of it he schemes, bribes and murders left and right. He relies on cutthroats. His spats with Cersei are clearly not merely utalitarian but personal. He delights not just in killing, but doing so in cruel, unusual and ironic ways. And obviously he spends a lot of effort on Shae.
Tyrion can do a great job (especially for his age) and be a good administrator. He has a keen understanding of the job (unlike Cersei) and can even be heroic when needed. But he is also proud, entitled, self-serving and cruel.
Finally, I don't think Tywin is cruel. He is ruthless and remorseless. But it's purposeful, not for its own sake. Again, Machiavellian.
Do bear in mind, we mainly know Tywin from Tyrion's biased perspective. On analysis, Tywin does pretty well by his kid, despite hating him at least as much as Cat hates Jon, and for far better reasons.
@@sorsocksfake Sending the mountain/Armory Lorch to Elia and her kids is cruel. Tywin knew what he was doing there. Same for pillaging Kings Landing.
@@benjamin6194 Also he had one of his barbarian goons cut his beard for no reason other than being petty.
I love this video so much, people tend to forget about the "ugly face" of Tyrion and pretend he is only sunshine and drunk rainbows.
I'd love a "The real Daenerys" vid.
I would KILL for a “The Real Daenerys” video. She consistently did SO much to try and do things right, to toe the line between forgiving and hard ruler, and she was politically very smart. D&D butchered her character, and gave some of her best “smart decisions” in the book to the men around her.
@@chaliezarde She literally tortured a maid in ADWD, who was innocent because there was no proof to the accusations against her. Stop pretending that Dany is a flawless ruler. She is a tyrant who needs to be put down like a dog.
@@larochejaquelein3680
Rhaena commanded Merle Bullock to question the stable boys sharply after the theft of the dragon eggs yet she is neither insane nor a tyrant. Jaehearys, someone unanimously agreed to be the best king ever, cruelly punished then men (in a large hungry crowd) responsible for the death of Rego Draz.
Also, almost all the characters have done worse. Robb goes on a war and plunders the westerlands, Stannis intends to sack Kingslanding without a thought, (how else is he going to control the pirates?), Robert and Ned ended the war on Pyke brutally, etc etc.
Nobody’ arguing she is flawless, unless you mean to tell me there is indeed someone flawless that she should aspire to be. Just telling you that you’re a hypocrite for calling her a tyrant “who needs to be put down like a dog.”
@@chaliezarde
David Lightbringer should be releasing that vid shortly.
@@rehaan6428 he only wants her "put down like a dog" because she doesn't have a penis. Literally all the men in GoT have done just as terrible things, if not worse, but they skate by judgement-free because ~*PeNiS pOwEr*~
Yeah, I've always wondered why people called Tyrion a villain, but it makes a lot more sense now. He's definitely written as a protagonist and good guy by D&D, but he definitely sounds more like a villain in the books. Its also weird that D&D didn't just trust the fifth book instead of trying to deviate from it that point. The speculation that you did in this video sounds a lot better than the seasons 6-8 that we got from D&D. I like the idea of Tyrion convincing Dany to brutal and invade King's Landing, unleashing some of the Wildfire, and then teaming to help fight the White Walkers as his true redemptive character arc.
"People" lmao you mean GRRM? The creator of ASOIAF? Tyrion is a villain, there is no debate.
When I read Tyrion's pov chapters I am reminded of the old African proverb that, "The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth"
thats a metal af quote
Rejection breeds contempt
Could you expand where in Africa this proverb is from?
So original dawg
Trans homies RISE UP
" There is a great setup in the first four seasons.." A great way to describe the entire show.
What a painful and explicit burial. To make things worse: and all of that was still before Season 8 came... sheesh
It’s good up until season 6. The last two are… disappointing
@@depgabby wrong, season 5 and onwards is dogshit. Tired of people defending it with the amount of terrible plotholes and character assissinatons.
@@summ.3433 well I like it up to season 6. That’s when the dialogue and the plot REALLY started going downhill. The plot holes before that were to be expected of such a long and complicated show.
I love in the books when Tyrion catches Shae and she calls him "my giant of Lannister"
And Tyrion goes: "That was the worst thing you could have said."
*strangle*
While a lot of people condemn Tywin for his hypocrisy vis-à-vis whoring, he actually wasn’t being hypocritical if you read between the lines. When warning Tyrion to stop seeing whores, he said that he would no longer suffer Tyrion to bring *shame* upon House Lannister. His issue wasn’t Tyrion sleeping with common women in and of itself, but his complete lack of discretion as a lordling. Meanwhile, we never knew anything about Tywin sleeping with whores until his final scene, because he did his best to keep it on the down-low.
Not trying to say Tywin was a great guy or father of the year, but it is an important distinction.
Seemed like literally no one knew he was whoring in not even family
Yea but it becomes insanely hypocritical when the main person he’s hiding shae from is Tywin himself. He’s creating a problem where there isn’t one, why not tell Tyrion to use the secret tunnel? Why make it more difficult for him? He’s even aware of Jamie’s relationship with Cersei and still wanted him to be heir to the rock. Even after the rumors became public he still wanted Jamie to resign his kings guard post and be heir. Tyrion couldn’t win no matter what he did and he’s too clever to be docile so there relationship was destined for failure
If it was Jaime who did the whoring, Tywin would never even bats an eye.